Re: [qubes-users] SystemD sucks - qubes shouldn't use it
Chris Laprise: > On 03/08/2017 08:50 AM, taii...@gmx.com wrote: > >> "The Linux kernel, I believe, is clean. > > You lost me right there. I don't believe in hero worship, and if anyone > thinks Linus is fallible it is the people on this list. Thanks for addressing this, Chris. Privilege escalation, uninitialized pointers, race conditions, you name it, vulns are found in the kernel at what's in my opinion a somewhat alarming rate. I seem to think a developer loudly brought up this growing problem at linux.conf or a another event a year or two ago, but the details aren't coming to me. I don't even follow kernel development and I hear about security problems way more often than I'd like to for ring0 code. For some insight into why the Linux kernel is not as secure as you think, in both rant style and by-example, regularly posted referring to over a decade's worth of incidents and poor decisions, all you have to do is visit https://www.grsecurity.net/ I'm not saying that Linux is a bad thing or the developers don't care or that another OS is better, but to say the kernel "is clean" is just plain wrong. taii...@gmx.com: > https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=761658 > I am tired of the "virtualization will protect you!" excuse, it only > goes so far and some systemD issues such as using google DNS by default > are simply inexcusable from a qubes perspective (designed to be a secure > OS, but phoning home like that without asking isn't secure at all) It's easy enough to override the defaults at compile-time, and most distros do in fact. You can also of course set your own at run-time, but most users won't do this and I agree Qubes should make an attempt to protect users from that. systemd-timesyncd has a similar problem with timeservers. Actually, do these settings even matter in Qubes' default state? My systemd-networkd.service is disabled and not running in my sys-net, which is the way it was installed. Further, /etc/resolv.conf is > # Generated by NetworkManager > nameserver 192.168.1.1 Which is the DNS server configured by DHCP. Where does systemd-resolved come into play? - ONLY AT VFEmail! - Use our Metadata Mitigator to keep your email out of the NSA's hands! $24.95 ONETIME Lifetime accounts with Privacy Features! 15GB disk! No bandwidth quotas! Commercial and Bulk Mail Options! -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "qubes-users" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to qubes-users+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to qubes-users@googlegroups.com. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/qubes-users/9676f5aa-ec5a-b5fa-0653-8a3292a15e73%40vfemail.net. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: [qubes-users] SystemD sucks - qubes shouldn't use it
On 03/08/2017 08:50 AM, taii...@gmx.com wrote: "The Linux kernel, I believe, is clean. You lost me right there. I don't believe in hero worship, and if anyone thinks Linus is fallible it is the people on this list. Systemd may not be the best thing to happen to Linux, but compared to relying on the chronic ineptitude of sysv system state handling (esp. PC/laptop power modes) its a godsend. Systemd exists because Apple made it abundantly clear with OS X launchd that sysv init couldn't cut the mustard... and then Ubuntu followed suit with Upstart. Eventually, systemd was shown to be better engineered than Upstart. IMO, advocating a return to init instead of another launchd-like arbiter shows bad judgment. This describes systemd perfectly. It was almost like it was designed to touch as much of a Linux system as possible. It has hooks into some many different subsystems and APIs that it's almost impossible to build a modern distro with current software without pulling in systemd as a dependency. This happened almost overnight, and I think there are malicious forces at work here." You can have "small and separate tools" some of the time, but it doesn't work as an unyielding rule for modern systems which require lots of vertical integration of useful hardware features. Network Manager taking over from the old, sclerotic network layer is a prime example of this. MAC address anonymization using the old "small tools used together" philosophy gave us 'macchanger' and scripts that couldn't deliver the sought-after behavior without making the user bend over backwards to accommodate the patchy device management (restart your netVM after waking from sleep, etc). It shows that simplicity applied in the wrong way and the wrong places (or adhered to like fundamentalist religion) actually makes systems more *brittle* and less secure. Xen allows us a much better mixture of complexity and simplicity. https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=761658 Interesting issue, but not related to the question of design complexity. This could be entered as a Qubes issue to address the question of default settings (I don't want the Google settings either). -- Chris Laprise, tas...@openmailbox.org https://twitter.com/ttaskett -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "qubes-users" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to qubes-users+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to qubes-users@googlegroups.com. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/qubes-users/031d5456-4c92-9354-f403-99ff4f929650%40openmailbox.org. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: [qubes-users] SystemD sucks - qubes shouldn't use it
On Wed, Mar 08, 2017 at 08:50:59AM -0500, taii...@gmx.com wrote: > I realize that it is an integral part of fedora and debian (gross), but it > is a serious security hole and qubes should consider migrating away from it > by maybe choosing another orgin distro. > http://without-systemd.org/wiki/index.php/Arguments_against_systemd > > https://muchweb.me/systemd-nsa-attempt > "The Linux kernel, I believe, is clean. As long as Linus lives, you're not > going to subvert the kernel. Let's just assume that is true for the sake of > argument. If you can't get into the kernel, what is your next option? You > need something low level (PID 1?), ubiquitous, and vast in scope and > complexity. > > This describes systemd perfectly. It was almost like it was designed to > touch as much of a Linux system as possible. It has hooks into some many > different subsystems and APIs that it's almost impossible to build a modern > distro with current software without pulling in systemd as a dependency. > This happened almost overnight, and I think there are malicious forces at > work here." > > Assuming that it is the NSA is unimaginative, it could be literally be any > combination of interests that are doing this - who wouldn't desire absolute > control and absolute power over 99% of linux systems? > > https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=761658 > I am tired of the "virtualization will protect you!" excuse, it only goes so > far and some systemD issues such as using google DNS by default are simply > inexcusable from a qubes perspective (designed to be a secure OS, but > phoning home like that without asking isn't secure at all) > > Linux is about choice, but now the incompetent lennart and red hat are > choosing for you - they are more qualified to make that decision and are > doing it for your own good. Frankly, the use of systemd in dom0 doesn't strike me as a huge problem. I'd like you to explain why you think it is. There's been some discussion on this in the past. Qubes has some dependency on systemd, but there is code for sysvinit alternatives, which you should be able to work with. Where there isn't an existing alternative you should be able to find one fairly readily. Linux IS about choice - if you want to exercise your choice to use Qubes without systemd then you should start work and provide PRs. They would be accepted and many people would thank you. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "qubes-users" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to qubes-users+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to qubes-users@googlegroups.com. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/qubes-users/20170308151010.GB2649%40thirdeyesecurity.org. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: [qubes-users] SystemD sucks - qubes shouldn't use it
> On 8 Mar 2017, at 14:50, taii...@gmx.com Taiidan-at-gmx.com > |qubes-mailing-list/Example Allow| wrote: > > I realize that it is an integral part of fedora and debian (gross), but it is > a serious security hole and qubes should consider migrating away from it by > maybe choosing another orgin distro. > http://without-systemd.org/wiki/index.php/Arguments_against_systemd > > https://muchweb.me/systemd-nsa-attempt > "The Linux kernel, I believe, is clean. As long as Linus lives, you're not > going to subvert the kernel. Let's just assume that is true for the sake of > argument. If you can't get into the kernel, what is your next option? You > need something low level (PID 1?), ubiquitous, and vast in scope and > complexity. > > This describes systemd perfectly. It was almost like it was designed to touch > as much of a Linux system as possible. It has hooks into some many different > subsystems and APIs that it's almost impossible to build a modern distro with > current software without pulling in systemd as a dependency. This happened > almost overnight, and I think there are malicious forces at work here." > > Assuming that it is the NSA is unimaginative, it could be literally be any > combination of interests that are doing this - who wouldn't desire absolute > control and absolute power over 99% of linux systems? > > https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=761658 > I am tired of the "virtualization will protect you!" excuse, it only goes so > far and some systemD issues such as using google DNS by default And how is it supposed to do this in dom0 without ANY network connection? Nobody is forcing you to use Qubes and frankly, if it is good enough for the Qubes team, I am not the one to tell Joanna something about security... Are you? Cheers, Frank > are simply inexcusable from a qubes perspective (designed to be a secure OS, > but phoning home like that without asking isn't secure at all) > > Linux is about choice, but now the incompetent lennart and red hat are > choosing for you - they are more qualified to make that decision and are > doing it for your own good. > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "qubes-users" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to qubes-users+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to qubes-users@googlegroups.com. > To view this discussion on the web visit > https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/qubes-users/7acfa3f6-d9ae-a5f8-87c4-998b28f574fc%40gmx.com. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "qubes-users" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to qubes-users+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to qubes-users@googlegroups.com. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/qubes-users/7734-1488982678-787612%40sneakemail.com. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
[qubes-users] SystemD sucks - qubes shouldn't use it
I realize that it is an integral part of fedora and debian (gross), but it is a serious security hole and qubes should consider migrating away from it by maybe choosing another orgin distro. http://without-systemd.org/wiki/index.php/Arguments_against_systemd https://muchweb.me/systemd-nsa-attempt "The Linux kernel, I believe, is clean. As long as Linus lives, you're not going to subvert the kernel. Let's just assume that is true for the sake of argument. If you can't get into the kernel, what is your next option? You need something low level (PID 1?), ubiquitous, and vast in scope and complexity. This describes systemd perfectly. It was almost like it was designed to touch as much of a Linux system as possible. It has hooks into some many different subsystems and APIs that it's almost impossible to build a modern distro with current software without pulling in systemd as a dependency. This happened almost overnight, and I think there are malicious forces at work here." Assuming that it is the NSA is unimaginative, it could be literally be any combination of interests that are doing this - who wouldn't desire absolute control and absolute power over 99% of linux systems? https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=761658 I am tired of the "virtualization will protect you!" excuse, it only goes so far and some systemD issues such as using google DNS by default are simply inexcusable from a qubes perspective (designed to be a secure OS, but phoning home like that without asking isn't secure at all) Linux is about choice, but now the incompetent lennart and red hat are choosing for you - they are more qualified to make that decision and are doing it for your own good. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "qubes-users" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to qubes-users+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to qubes-users@googlegroups.com. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/qubes-users/7acfa3f6-d9ae-a5f8-87c4-998b28f574fc%40gmx.com. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
