[RBW] Re: PSA: Compass cycling knickers back in stock

[Jan Heine]

The old model is on sale, and some sizes are sold out.

The new production run is in stock in all sizes:

https://www.compasscycle.com/shop/components/compass-knickers-2016/

Thanks,

Jan Heine
Compass Bicycles Ltd.
www.compasscycle.com

On Wednesday, February 17, 2016 at 7:21:59 PM UTC-8, iamkeith wrote:
>
> All I see are XS.  Did I miss this already?!  Crap.
>
> On Wednesday, February 17, 2016 at 5:07:24 PM UTC-7, Neil wrote:
>>
>> Looks like all sizes of the Compass Bicycles riding knickers are back in 
>> stock, in gray (no more khaki, yay!). Supposedly some modest improvements 
>> over the last version. Mine should arrive tomorrow, just in time for the 
>> weekend! It's been a lovely two weeks of dry weather here in Nor Cal, 
>> hoping to get out for a good ride this weekend.
>>
>> Cheers,
>>
>> Neil
>>
>

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[RBW] Re: Reviews and/or photos of Big Ben 700c X 55 tires?

[adam leibow]

here are mine mounted underneath a SKS P65 fender

On Friday, February 12, 2016 at 12:31:21 PM UTC-8, iamkeith wrote:
>
> Is anybody in a position to share experiences with these tires?   I'm able 
> to find photos and comments for the 50mm version, but *nothing* about the 
> 55mm version. Photos of them mounted on a bike would be fantastic! 
>
> On the surface, it looks like it might provide a good compromise of the 
> traits I'm seeking, but it kind of falls at the absolute skinniest end of 
> the size range I'd want. If it runs true to size, it could work. But, if it 
> runs small, then I don't know.   I believe (hope) that all of the photos on 
> the website are of the 50mm version, so there's no way to even judge.  I'm 
> slightly worried about it being too stiff too, but that's only because I've 
> been spoiled by increasingly supple tires over the past few years.
>
> I know that this group tends to gravitate that direction as well - like 
> the new Big One which is a *great* size, but I think that might be too 
> fragile.   I'm a little skeptical even of the Super Moto which, as far as I 
> can tell, is a level up from the Big One in terms of both traction and 
> durability.  Or could that the best choice? 
>
> I'm thinking about putting these on my Clem which I bought with the 
> intention of setting up more as an off-pavement dirt/trail bike but, 
> because of the fit,  now think will be better suited as a pathway/town 
> bike.   I'll still need to use it on some rough, rocky.. but level.. 
> surfaces though.   All academic until the snow melts, but I'm dying to ride 
> this bike and want to be ready to roll.
>
> Thanks for whatever info you've got
>

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Re: [RBW] 26" vs. 700c for touring/load hauling

[Patrick Moore]

I'd almost trade you for my green 2003 Curt built custom! Man, I sometimes
wonder if a Rat Trap Pass bike wouldn't be better than even a road-29er.
Anyway, let us know how you like those tires.

On Wed, Feb 17, 2016 at 9:39 PM, iamkeith  wrote:

> So, what I really want to know, Hugh, is why you'd sell your 26 Atlantis.
>
> 
>
> I might as well post this, too.  I showed a different picture in the Rat
> Trap Pass discussion a while back, but this is my 59 with those new tires,
> just before it started snowing last fall.  I've been absolutely giddy with
> anticipation, waiting for the opportunity to get back on it this coming
> summer.
>
>
> 
>
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**
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world revolves.) *Carthusian motto

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*Kinei hos eromenon.* (*It moves [all things] as the beloved.) *Aristotle

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Re: [RBW] 26" vs. 700c for touring/load hauling

[Hugh Smitham]

Funny you should ask. All day I've been asking myself that very thing. I 
may hold onto it. 



On Wednesday, February 17, 2016 at 8:39:41 PM UTC-8, iamkeith wrote:
>
> So, what I really want to know, Hugh, is why you'd sell your 26 Atlantis.
>
> 
>
> I might as well post this, too.  I showed a different picture in the Rat 
> Trap Pass discussion a while back, but this is my 59 with those new tires, 
> just before it started snowing last fall.  I've been absolutely giddy with 
> anticipation, waiting for the opportunity to get back on it this coming 
> summer.
>
>
> 
>
>

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Re: [RBW] 26" vs. 700c for touring/load hauling

[iamkeith]

Sorry... that is my 60, not 59.

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Re: [RBW] 26" vs. 700c for touring/load hauling

[iamkeith]

So, what I really want to know, Hugh, is why you'd sell your 26 Atlantis.



I might as well post this, too.  I showed a different picture in the Rat 
Trap Pass discussion a while back, but this is my 59 with those new tires, 
just before it started snowing last fall.  I've been absolutely giddy with 
anticipation, waiting for the opportunity to get back on it this coming 
summer.



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Re: [RBW] 26" vs. 700c for touring/load hauling

[Patrick Moore]

I don't know whether a 700C bike as such -- *as such* is faster or slower
than a 26" wheeled bike. If it is faster, I can't imagine any reason except
that bigger wheels somehow roll more easily than smaller ones. (I do think
I notice more drag on my 406 mm Kojaks than on my 559 or 622 Kojaks.)

I do know -- you feel it very distinctly riding fixed -- that heavy 700c
wheels seem to maintain speed better than light 559 or 571 wheels, given
more or less similar tires, but that hasn't made mine any faster for me
overall. I've had my road bike setup more or less engraved in stone for the
last 20 years, so there is little variable in setup. At any rate, I've
ridden many 700C road bikes and 4 very nice 559/571 road bikes, and I've
always been fastest on the 26ers, on road.

I might well find an Atlantis slower on road, being that it is rather
stoutly built compared to a nice, light 700C road frame. OTOH, with Elk
Passes on the Atlantis and Pro Race 4s on the gofast -- I dunno!

As for coasting downhill: I recall riding with erstwhile Boblist and
Rivlist member Gary "9,000 miles; it was a bad year" Blakely up and down
Tramway, he on a very nice Trek sport tourer, me on my half stepped '95
custom commuter. He was faster uphill (he waited for me; oh, and I geared
wy down to 60") but I was faster downhill -- funny, I had to keep
braking for politeness sake. Of course, I was about 30 lb heavier than he
-- he was small, and probably less than 150, I at about 170; bikes about
the same. 32 mm 559 folding, non Tourguard Paselas, so not hugely swift
tires.

As you say, there are many variables, but from my experience -- which,
again, while hardly definitive is considerable, I would very emphatically
say that I have no evidence at all after decades of riding that 700c is
inherently faster than smaller wheels because of momentum, tire drag, spoke
churn, frontal aerodynamics, weight, or any other reason.

I do ride my Elk Pass-shod tires with said wheels on light dirt and gravel;
fun! Even the gofast works, now that I swapped the Keos for even lighter
SPD clones. (Tho' I am hoarding my old Dura Ace SPD road pedals, because
they will probably go on to the gofast simply because they are *nice*).

Note that the Sun M14A was designed as a mountain bike tire back in the
early '90s, and I used them for years off road with Farmer Johns and such.
I also commuted across town on them, on some rough pavement, sometime with
heavy rear loads, while shod with 200 gram 559 22 mm Specialized Turbos.
The rims are bombproof.

I did break a couple of rear nipples under rear loads of 30 lb or more
while using the Turbos, but that was because the wheels were built with
Revolution spokes and aluminum nipples. I switched to 14-15 and brass and
no more problems. But then I found the Kojak and after that the Elk Pass.

And I would very definitely use 26" for dirt and touring; I use it on dirt
(Race Lite) tho' I've not done any touring. I think -- no touring
experience, but extrapolating from such load handling experience as I have
with them -- that 26" would be a better size for touring, especially with a
tire like the Rat Trap Pass.

In fact, had I not invested in a Matthews replacement of the Fargo, with
the custom wheels and parts, I'd probably be buying a Raven or something
roady to accept a Rat Trap Pass tire, or perhaps a 559X2.5" Furious Fred.

On Wed, Feb 17, 2016 at 9:10 PM, Hugh Smitham  wrote:

> On Wed, Feb 17, 2016 at 7:22 PM, Patrick Moore 
> wrote:
>
>> It's the same bike, a 1999 Rivendell road custom, formerly with 650C
>> wheels and Pro 4s, now with 559 wheels and Elk Passes. The gear is now a
>> tiny bit higher (76" versus 75", since the wheel is 1/4" bigger with the
>> Elk Passes) but I seem to be able to push it more easily -- cadence versus
>> effort versus conditions. The Elk Passes I've owned weigh between 172 and
>> 178 grams; the Pro Race 4 was about 200 grams.
>>
>> That said: why would a 700C bike fitted with 700C Pro Race 4s be faster
>> or lighter than a bike built for 26" wheels?
>>
>
> Lots of variables here, rider conditioning, course conditions and bike
> build characteristics. Did you measure your yourself on the same segment
> with the exact same conditions to arrive at your conclusion? I recently
> rode my Trek 660 with someone riding my Atlantis and though that person is
> in decent shape I can assure you the Trek 660 shod with Conti Grand Prix
> 700x28mm was faster. This wasn't a controlled experiment so pretty
> meaningless.
>
> Note that a faster bike may or may not be lighter than a slower bike.
>>
>
> Right, sure the engine may be finely tuned.
>
>>
>> Do you mean that smaller wheels have pari passu greater rolling
>> resistance?
>>
>
> Nope that's not what I'm saying and I have no data to confirm deny that.
>
>
>> That may be so, but the difference IME (which is considerable) is hard to
>> feel, and I certainly feel that the 26" Elk Pass tires roll better than 

Re: [RBW] Re: Rear derailer on my Hillborne

[Surlyprof]

The price was a pleasant surprise.  Riv used to sell them for $104.  The 
XCD might have been prettier but, after a quick test ride, I'm happy with 
the decision.  Successfully installed, tuned and feeling faster (maybe 
smoother?) than ever. 
 https://www.flickr.com/photos/129545862@N03/25100274155/in/dateposted-public/

Thanks for all the great advice everyone!
John

On Wednesday, February 17, 2016 at 4:01:36 PM UTC-8, Chad wrote:
>
> That's a great price on probably one of the best 9-speed derailers still 
> available.  I've not tried the SunXCD, but I am glad to hear it works 
> great.  Might try it on my Roadeo.  I found this interesting on the Riv 
> product description page for the XT M772:
>
> "Both shifts to 36t in back and work up to 10 speed index Shimano road STI 
> systems."
>
> I also have the M771 RD (non-shadow version) and it works great.
>
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Rear derailer on my Hillborne

[Surlyprof]

The price was a pleasant surprise.  Riv used to sell them for $104. 
 Successfully installed, tuned and feeling faster (maybe smoother?) than 
ever.  
https://www.flickr.com/photos/129545862@N03/25100274155/in/dateposted-public/

Thanks for the great advice everyone!
John

On Wednesday, February 17, 2016 at 4:01:36 PM UTC-8, Chad wrote:
>
> That's a great price on probably one of the best 9-speed derailers still 
> available.  I've not tried the SunXCD, but I am glad to hear it works 
> great.  Might try it on my Roadeo.  I found this interesting on the Riv 
> product description page for the XT M772:
>
> "Both shifts to 36t in back and work up to 10 speed index Shimano road STI 
> systems."
>
> I also have the M771 RD (non-shadow version) and it works great.
>
>

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Re: [RBW] FS: Riv ShopSack, medium green

[Joe Bernard]

Sold!

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Re: [RBW] 26" vs. 700c for touring/load hauling

[Hugh Smitham]

On Wed, Feb 17, 2016 at 7:22 PM, Patrick Moore  wrote:

> It's the same bike, a 1999 Rivendell road custom, formerly with 650C
> wheels and Pro 4s, now with 559 wheels and Elk Passes. The gear is now a
> tiny bit higher (76" versus 75", since the wheel is 1/4" bigger with the
> Elk Passes) but I seem to be able to push it more easily -- cadence versus
> effort versus conditions. The Elk Passes I've owned weigh between 172 and
> 178 grams; the Pro Race 4 was about 200 grams.
>
> That said: why would a 700C bike fitted with 700C Pro Race 4s be faster or
> lighter than a bike built for 26" wheels?
>

Lots of variables here, rider conditioning, course conditions and bike
build characteristics. Did you measure your yourself on the same segment
with the exact same conditions to arrive at your conclusion? I recently
rode my Trek 660 with someone riding my Atlantis and though that person is
in decent shape I can assure you the Trek 660 shod with Conti Grand Prix
700x28mm was faster. This wasn't a controlled experiment so pretty
meaningless.

Note that a faster bike may or may not be lighter than a slower bike.
>

Right, sure the engine may be finely tuned.

>
> Do you mean that smaller wheels have pari passu greater rolling resistance?
>

Nope that's not what I'm saying and I have no data to confirm deny that.


> That may be so, but the difference IME (which is considerable) is hard to
> feel, and I certainly feel that the 26" Elk Pass tires roll better than any
> 700C tire I've used (well, the 50 mm Furious Fred certainly rolls well, but
> it has knoblets to slow it down on pavement).
>

I've found when riding alongside folks with relatively similar conditioning
on 700c bikes and me on my 26er I have the advantage on climbs and am at a
disadvantage on descents. The 700's can keep the momentum up. Again maybe
if I had the wheels and tires you're rolling those disadvantages would
disappear?


> As for weight, ceteris paribus, a smaller wheel will have lighter rims,
> tires, and tubes -- this by mere fact of size; but the change brought
> further weight reduction, in that the 650C ME14As weighed ~430 grams while
> the 559 M14As (no eyelets) weight 370 grams. And as before, the EPs are
> lighter than the PR4s. (The gofast weighs ~17.5 lb with cage and pedals but
> no seat bag.)
>

Those are light wheels and tires.  And you've made a great point for 26ers.
Would you use them for mixed terrain and loaded touring?

Finally, I don't recall, despite subscribing to BQ for the last 10 years,
> that Jan tested the relative speeds of wheels of different diameters. He
> made judgements about handling and wheel diameter and tire width. Did I
> miss something?
>
>  However, assuming the bike shod with Michelin Pro Race 4 @ 22mm are shod
>>> on a 700c bike versus a bike with the Compass ELk 26x1.25  I'll  remain a
>>> skeptic that the 26er will be faster. A bike designed with that tire in mind
>>>
>>
Less of a skeptic.

> (Michelin Pro Race 4) is lighter and consequently faster.  As Doug
>>> mentioned, *perhaps* Jan did a test on this very thing, if so I'd be
>>> curious to read it.
>>>
>>
>>>
~Hugh

“Life is like riding a bicycle. To keep your balance, you must keep
moving.” ― Albert Einstein

http://velocipeedemusings.com/


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Re: [RBW] RBW and Meaning

[Patrick Moore]

I recall Grant saying back in an early publication, "We are product driven,
not market driven," meaning they design things for use and not merely for
sale.

I think this is a key element of the overall design, production, and sales
method of the company that sets it so far apart from most companies where
(to pick up on one of Mark's remarks) as they grow they get further from
their original purpose and focus more on self sustainment -- which in most
cases means sale, and therefore design and production, for profit instead
of for use.

Granted, focus on sale has produced, by accident, many great improvements;
but obviously it does not do so consistently and generally. Carbon fiber is
probably a great improvement for some uses; for a city hybrid bike? I don't
think so. 1X12 drivetrains may be useful for some situations; does the
rider of the urban hybrid need 3X9? And so forth.

Many Rivendell products don't particularly appeal to me; tho' I'd rather
ride a Clem than a Madone (I think; I've not ridden either). And there is
undoubtedly an element of whimsy in some Riv designs and products that may
or may not appeal on simple aesthetic grounds. But I can't think of
anything they sell that isn't also useful in its own way; overpriced for
the market segment, perhaps -- I'm thinking of $400 cheese boards and $300
axes for suburban duffers to whittle with -- but still useful.

Aside, re axes and knives: I personally would be more interested if
Rivendell set up their own forge and produced distinctly home made style
axes and cleavers and utility knives at good, blue collar American wages. I
used to play around with forging, or at least re-shaping metal bits heated
in the coals, when I was in high school. Made knives but not no axe, but
family owned a locally made, small vendor produced axe that worked as well
as the admittedly very dull and abused Sears axe brought with us from the
Homeland. Point of this: crude is fun if you are doing it yourself, or
buying it from someone you know.

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Re: [RBW] 26" vs. 700c for touring/load hauling

['Norman Bone' via RBW Owners Bunch]

That's the earliest catalog I have. Does anyone have some scans of catalogs or 
frame brochures earlier than #5 (1999)? I think Keith is right.

-Norm


  From: iamkeith 
 To: RBW Owners Bunch  
Cc: bone1...@yahoo.com
 Sent: Wednesday, February 17, 2016 6:43 PM
 Subject: Re: [RBW] 26" vs. 700c for touring/load hauling
   


On Wednesday, February 17, 2016 at 4:49:17 PM UTC-7, Norman Bone wrote:
Thanks Hugh!
It looks like 59 was a large as you could go with 26. Catalog says 61, 63 and 
65 went to 700c


I'm guessing that this particular catalog excerpt was from later in the period 
of model availability, and reflected a change that occurred at some point.   As 
noted, mine is 60cm and has 26" wheels.   And I know of at least one larger 
than mine (assuming 61cm, picture attached below) that also has 26" wheels.   
Prior to 1999, it may be that this size still fell below the "cutoff" between 
26 and 700c, or it may just be the case that nothing larger was ever 
ordered/built.    
I still kind of think that, at first,  they were ALL  26" though.   Remember 
that the original reason for using 26" tires was that there were no 700c tires 
that had enough volume. (Or at least very few.)  At some point, that obviously 
changed.
If I'm correct, it looks like the change might have actually happened mid 1999, 
comparing with Norman's info,  and corresponded to a change in builders  (Joe 
Starck, earlier in the year, used 26", and Match, later in the year, used 
700c?)  Or who knows... maybe there was an option to choose for a short period 
during the overlap.


  

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[RBW] Re: RBW and Meaning

['Mark in Beacon' via RBW Owners Bunch]

When you pour more and more energy into a system, it grows more and more 
complex, e.g. the current fossil fuel era, on the wane. One could make the 
case that it also seems to become more and more bereft of meaning. I 
believe the bicycle as practiced and promoted by Rivendell to be a machine 
that represents the first watershed as described by Ivan Illich--that is, a 
convivial tool that strikes a wonderful balance between sustaining itself 
and providing a service--mobility at a human scale of speed. A 
non-competive machine that is joyfully useful for daily tasks. The second 
watershed for industrial tools (and Ilich also categorized institutions 
such as health care, finance, and education as tools) comes when the 
tool/organization exists primarily to continue its own existence--a 
situation that might be applied to much of mainstream bicycle production 
today in many ways (It goes to 12! Vertically compliant!), as well as every 
major institution in the United States and many other developed countries.

I don't know Grant's complete world view, but at least some lot of his 
ideas as presented would appear to line up in principle with the ideas that 
Illich presents in *Tools for Conviviality*. (I believe I copied a long 
quote from another of his books, *Energy and Equity*, directly related to 
bicycles, in a post a few months back.) In any case, I like the way he runs 
his business, and his approach to designing, building, and selling bicycles 
and other goods and sundries. He also has great skill as a writer in 
promoting his ideas and products while also being aware that this activity 
in itself is somewhat contradictory to his philosophy. 

So how does this connect with meaning as found in our build environment? 
Well, as I said, this complexity issue is a nifty dilemma, and our build 
environment--sprawling suburbs, big box stores and strip malls, congested 
cities, confined animal feeding operations, decaying infrastructure, Dodge 
Durangos, LegoLands, poisoned water, eroded soil, monoculture agriculture, 
golf courses, smart phones, McMansions, cheap useless crap from China, blah 
blah blah, somewhat discourages quests for meaning. Do I believe industrial 
civilization is heading inexorably downhill in a handbasket fast? Yup. Do I 
believe bicycles (or industrial design) will save us from this fate? Nope. 

But I do feel that any moments able to be spent on a bicycle are good ones, 
all in all. Because of that human-made balance and scale of the thing. 
Because of its usefulness, and its conviviality. Being on a bicycle is 
itself meaningful, and the form and function of Rivendell bicycles is 
designed to enhance all the aspects that make it so--from where it is made 
to the places it is capable of taking you comfortably and safely to its 
ability to be repaired with standard parts by a user to the way its 
geometries encourage you to ride. All this is fraughtfully academic, of 
course. Mr. Petersen said it best, just ride. Or go to bed, as the case may 
be.

On Wednesday, February 17, 2016 at 7:10:42 PM UTC-5, Surlyprof wrote:
>
> For those of you who don’t know me, in addition to wanting a Rivendell 
> bicycle for years, owning a Hillborne for a year or two and being a member 
> of this group for over a year, I am also a professor of Industrial Design.  
> This semester I have been teaching my course entitled, “Design and 
> Meaning”.  The goal of the course is to prompt our students to explore 
> various roles that meaning plays in the industrial design profession.  A 
> portion of the time we look at the more artistic side of design and how 
> designers express ideas using industrial design as a medium for 
> expression.  Another aspect of the class covers semiotics and semantics and 
> how designers can utilize form to communicate function.  The third topic of 
> the course deals with meaning that people associate with and attach to the 
> built environment that surrounds them.  As one of the lectures, I’ve been 
> trying to pull together a lecture about RBW.  It seems to me that there are 
> interesting connections between RBW, Grant’s ideas and meaning for many of 
> us who own Rivendell bikes and accessories, belong to this group and/or the 
> Facebook group, and believe in a cycling lifestyle that may veer from 
> current mainstream bicycle culture. This is where my question lies… How 
> do you connect meaning (however you interpret that) with RBW, Grant’s 
> writings, bicycles in general and the design of bikes and other goods at 
> RBW (as well as B,B)?  Are there design choices made at RBW that boosts 
> that sense of meaning?  
>
>
> Rather than presenting the students with just my take on that subject, I 
> thought I'd solicit the thoughts of group members.  I’d be happy to field 
> your thoughts via private responses but, if everyone is OK with this as a 
> topic of open discussion, I think it might be a fun one to be shared in the 
> group forum. Also, this is intended only 

[RBW] RBW and Meaning

[Philip Williamson]

That's a cool job! I wish someone had told me in high school that Industrial 
Designer was a job choice.

I don't know how to talk about the things you're asking about. I do enjoy the 
Riv refinement and funk. There's a plainspokenness that draws me in, and I 
think the showroom carries that through, and is consistent with the Readers 
from the old days, to relate the "design" of Rivendell to the "feeling" of 
Ruvendell.

Philip 
www.biketinker.com

Philip
www.biketinker.com

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[RBW] Dia Compe "G" level brakes: thanks for info; still ISO RGCs, 600s, Records, Superbes as described.

[Patrick Moore]

Thanks Joe, Brian, and Richard. That's what I needed to know.

For the record: ISO 57 mm max reach, single pivot, silver, very good
condition, cold forged Royal Grand Compes, Shimano 600s, Campy Record,
Superbe/Superbe Pro front and rear pair.

*Need not have brake blocks.*

Nutted or allen.

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Re: [RBW] 26" vs. 700c for touring/load hauling

[Patrick Moore]

It's the same bike, a 1999 Rivendell road custom, formerly with 650C wheels
and Pro 4s, now with 559 wheels and Elk Passes. The gear is now a tiny bit
higher (76" versus 75", since the wheel is 1/4" bigger with the Elk Passes)
but I seem to be able to push it more easily -- cadence versus effort
versus conditions. The Elk Passes I've owned weigh between 172 and 178
grams; the Pro Race 4 was about 200 grams.

That said: why would a 700C bike fitted with 700C Pro Race 4s be faster or
lighter than a bike built for 26" wheels?

Note that a faster bike may or may not be lighter than a slower bike.

Do you mean that smaller wheels have pari passu greater rolling resistance?
That may be so, but the difference IME (which is considerable) is hard to
feel, and I certainly feel that the 26" Elk Pass tires roll better than any
700C tire I've used (well, the 50 mm Furious Fred certainly rolls well, but
it has knoblets to slow it down on pavement).

As for weight, ceteris paribus, a smaller wheel will have lighter rims,
tires, and tubes -- this by mere fact of size; but the change brought
further weight reduction, in that the 650C ME14As weighed ~430 grams while
the 559 M14As (no eyelets) weight 370 grams. And as before, the EPs are
lighter than the PR4s. (The gofast weighs ~17.5 lb with cage and pedals but
no seat bag.)

Finally, I don't recall, despite subscribing to BQ for the last 10 years,
that Jan tested the relative speeds of wheels of different diameters. He
made judgements about handling and wheel diameter and tire width. Did I
miss something?

 However, assuming the bike shod with Michelin Pro Race 4 @ 22mm are shod
>> on a 700c bike versus a bike with the Compass ELk 26x1.25  I'll  remain a
>> skeptic that the 26er will be faster. A bike designed with that tire in
>> mind (Michelin Pro Race 4) is lighter and consequently faster.  As Doug
>> mentioned, perhaps Jan did a test on this very thing, if so I'd be curious
>> to read it.
>>
>
>>

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[RBW] Re: PSA: Compass cycling knickers back in stock

[iamkeith]

All I see are XS.  Did I miss this already?!  Crap.

On Wednesday, February 17, 2016 at 5:07:24 PM UTC-7, Neil wrote:
>
> Looks like all sizes of the Compass Bicycles riding knickers are back in 
> stock, in gray (no more khaki, yay!). Supposedly some modest improvements 
> over the last version. Mine should arrive tomorrow, just in time for the 
> weekend! It's been a lovely two weeks of dry weather here in Nor Cal, 
> hoping to get out for a good ride this weekend.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Neil
>

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Re: [RBW] 26" vs. 700c for touring/load hauling

[Hugh Smitham]

All these bikes look great to me! Thanks for posting! 

On Wednesday, February 17, 2016 at 6:43:26 PM UTC-8, iamkeith wrote:
>
>
>
> On Wednesday, February 17, 2016 at 4:49:17 PM UTC-7, Norman Bone wrote:
>>
>> Thanks Hugh!
>>
>> It looks like 59 was a large as you could go with 26. Catalog says 61, 63 
>> and 65 went to 700c
>>
>>
> I'm guessing that this particular catalog excerpt was from later in the 
> period of model availability, and reflected a change that occurred at some 
> point.   As noted, mine is 60cm and has 26" wheels.   And I know of at 
> least one *larger* than mine (assuming 61cm, picture attached below) that 
> also has 26" wheels.   Prior to 1999, it may be that this size still fell 
> below the "cutoff" between 26 and 700c, or it may just be the case that 
> nothing larger was ever ordered/built.
>
> I still kind of think that, at first,  they were ALL  26" though.   
> Remember that the original reason for using 26" tires was that there were 
> no 700c tires that had enough volume. (Or at least very few.)  At some 
> point, that obviously changed.
>
> If I'm correct, it looks like the change might have actually happened mid 
> 1999, comparing with Norman's info,  and corresponded to a change in 
> builders  (Joe Starck, earlier in the year, used 26", and Match, later in 
> the year, used 700c?)  Or who knows... maybe there was an option to choose 
> for a short period during the overlap.
>
>
> 
>
>

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Re: [RBW] FS: Riv ShopSack, medium green

['Norman Bone' via RBW Owners Bunch]

Hey Joe-I'll take it. Are you in Portland too?
-Norm in Woodstock


  From: Joe Bernard 
 To: RBW Owners Bunch  
 Sent: Wednesday, February 17, 2016 6:58 PM
 Subject: [RBW] FS: Riv ShopSack, medium green
   
Bought last year for a front porteur rack which never seems to find its way to 
a bike I own, I'll probably end up selling that, too.
$50 shipped, includes a black bungee net.


   

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Re: [RBW] 26" vs. 700c for touring/load hauling

[john]

@Keith, Norm and Tim: Those are hot bikes! Exactly what I'm thinking! Great 
Rough Stuff, Go-Anywhere  All-Rounders!
On Wednesday, February 17, 2016 at 6:43:26 PM UTC-8, iamkeith wrote:
>
>
>
> On Wednesday, February 17, 2016 at 4:49:17 PM UTC-7, Norman Bone wrote:
>>
>> Thanks Hugh!
>>
>> It looks like 59 was a large as you could go with 26. Catalog says 61, 63 
>> and 65 went to 700c
>>
>>
> I'm guessing that this particular catalog excerpt was from later in the 
> period of model availability, and reflected a change that occurred at some 
> point.   As noted, mine is 60cm and has 26" wheels.   And I know of at 
> least one *larger* than mine (assuming 61cm, picture attached below) that 
> also has 26" wheels.   Prior to 1999, it may be that this size still fell 
> below the "cutoff" between 26 and 700c, or it may just be the case that 
> nothing larger was ever ordered/built.
>
> I still kind of think that, at first,  they were ALL  26" though.   
> Remember that the original reason for using 26" tires was that there were 
> no 700c tires that had enough volume. (Or at least very few.)  At some 
> point, that obviously changed.
>
> If I'm correct, it looks like the change might have actually happened mid 
> 1999, comparing with Norman's info,  and corresponded to a change in 
> builders  (Joe Starck, earlier in the year, used 26", and Match, later in 
> the year, used 700c?)  Or who knows... maybe there was an option to choose 
> for a short period during the overlap.
>
>
> 
>
>

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[RBW] FS: Riv ShopSack, medium green

[Joe Bernard]

My bad, I guess it's tan. It looks light green to me, but I think it's the 
green straps tricking my eyes. 

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[RBW] Re: RBW and Meaning

[BSWP]

John, I stumbled onto RBW when I saw a Moustache bar, and mounted it to my 
REI Novara XR back in the last century. The bike was woefully under-sized 
for me, but the bars transformed it. After I won an insurance settlement 
for being doored on my also too-small Centurion (lugged steel!) in West 
Berkeley, I took a wild chance and put all the money into a custom-fitted 
frame from Rivendell. That's my 65cm 1998 Long Low Custom. Grant worked 
with me, selected tubing and specified dimensions, and the bike rode and 
continues to ride wonderfully.

But why Riv? The early catalogues & Readers spoke to me at an intrinsic 
level... here was a "bike shop" that could build a frame to my exact size, 
weight, and riding style, that used old-school techniques, that would 
produce something beautiful and lasting. Also something quite distinct from 
the average road bikes in other shops. A bike to be proud of, to show off 
(a bit), and to ride without ever a doubt to its proper fit. Everything 
about the shop, the process, the product line, resonated with me. I plunked 
down the money for a "life" membership/subscription, wanting to help them 
continue and thrive.

And I continue to be a fan (even if we won't ever see an IGH Riv) because 
the design lines, the flow of tubes & lugs, speak to what attracts me to 
bicycles - having fun, riding smoothly, traveling long and wide and far. I 
avoid using the word "retro" when I describe RBW's bikes, because they are 
staking out respectable modern territory, they are not just a throwback to 
a past time.

- Andrew, Berkeley

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Re: [RBW] 26" vs. 700c for touring/load hauling

[iamkeith]

On Wednesday, February 17, 2016 at 4:49:17 PM UTC-7, Norman Bone wrote:
>
> Thanks Hugh!
>
> It looks like 59 was a large as you could go with 26. Catalog says 61, 63 
> and 65 went to 700c
>
>
I'm guessing that this particular catalog excerpt was from later in the 
period of model availability, and reflected a change that occurred at some 
point.   As noted, mine is 60cm and has 26" wheels.   And I know of at 
least one *larger* than mine (assuming 61cm, picture attached below) that 
also has 26" wheels.   Prior to 1999, it may be that this size still fell 
below the "cutoff" between 26 and 700c, or it may just be the case that 
nothing larger was ever ordered/built.

I still kind of think that, at first,  they were ALL  26" though.   
Remember that the original reason for using 26" tires was that there were 
no 700c tires that had enough volume. (Or at least very few.)  At some 
point, that obviously changed.

If I'm correct, it looks like the change might have actually happened mid 
1999, comparing with Norman's info,  and corresponded to a change in 
builders  (Joe Starck, earlier in the year, used 26", and Match, later in 
the year, used 700c?)  Or who knows... maybe there was an option to choose 
for a short period during the overlap.



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[RBW] Re: PSA: Compass cycling knickers back in stock

[Zed Martinez]

Hey, I like my khaki ones.

On Wednesday, February 17, 2016 at 7:07:24 PM UTC-5, Neil wrote:
>
> Looks like all sizes of the Compass Bicycles riding knickers are back in 
> stock, in gray (no more khaki, yay!). Supposedly some modest improvements 
> over the last version. Mine should arrive tomorrow, just in time for the 
> weekend! It's been a lovely two weeks of dry weather here in Nor Cal, 
> hoping to get out for a good ride this weekend.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Neil
>

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Re: [RBW] Dia Compe "G" brakes?

[Patrick Moore]

Thanks, Joe; I saw this:

http://velobase.com/ViewComponent.aspx?ID=545bea4e-4d01-4add-a37f-0d13feaacd67

+: good fender clearance.

-: Quality not top of line.

On Wed, Feb 17, 2016 at 7:13 PM, Joe Bunik  wrote:

> Dia-Compe 'G' sidepull notes:
> • vintage single-pivot, acceptable performance but well worth upgrading
> the pads
> • notorious for being "backwards" - with the barrel arm on the
> right... which is great for front-lever-right setups.
> • indeed, they do have better fender clearance than many other vintage
> sidepulls
>
>
> On 2/17/16, Patrick Moore  wrote:
> > See photo below.
> >
> > I might replace the wide mouth Silvers on my '03 with these. Questions:
> >
> > 1. Are they stiff? I take it that cold forged means stiffer while being
> > less bulky. These look svelte.
> >
> > 2. How well does the QR work on these? I'll have to get 30 mm tires
> through
> > them.
> >
> > 3. The shape of the arch looks as if it will accommodate fenders well --
> 50
> > mm Berthouds, in this case. Can anyone describe how they work with
> fenders?
> >
> > 4. Finally, how well do they stop with salmon pads? I've used top line
> 600,
> > Superbe Pro, and Royal Grand Compe 57s and they stop very well. Will
> these
> > do as well?
> >
> > Thanks, Patrick
> >
> > [image: Inline image 1]
> >
> > --
> > Resumes, LinkedIn profiles, bios, and letters that get interviews.
> > By-the-hour resume and LinkedIn coaching.
> > Other professional writing services.
> > http://www.resumespecialties.com/
> > www.linkedin.com/in/patrickmooreresumespec/
> > Patrick Moore
> > Alburquerque, Nouvelle Mexique,  Vereinigte Staaten
> >
> **
> > **
> > *The point which is the pivot of the norm is the motionless center of a
> > circumference on which all conditions, distinctions, and individualities
> > revolve. *Chuang Tzu
> >
> > *Stat crux dum volvitur orbis.* *(The cross stands motionless while the
> > world revolves.) *Carthusian motto
> >
> > *It is *we *who change; *He* remains the same.* Eckhart
> >
> > *Kinei hos eromenon.* (*It moves [all things] as the beloved.) *Aristotle
> >
> > --
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> >
>
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By-the-hour resume and LinkedIn coaching.
Other professional writing services.
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Patrick Moore
Alburquerque, Nouvelle Mexique,  Vereinigte Staaten
**
**
*The point which is the pivot of the norm is the motionless center of a
circumference on which all conditions, distinctions, and individualities
revolve. *Chuang Tzu

*Stat crux dum volvitur orbis.* *(The cross stands motionless while the
world revolves.) *Carthusian motto

*It is *we *who change; *He* remains the same.* Eckhart

*Kinei hos eromenon.* (*It moves [all things] as the beloved.) *Aristotle

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Re: [RBW] Clems for Kids

['Mark in Beacon' via RBW Owners Bunch]

Well, since I have a Clementine, and he's generally pretty sophisticated 
about bikes, and it is black, just like mine, I think I will be okay with 
that part. But it did cross my mind (and the high top one on CL is $200 
less than the low at Riv!)

Anybody else have an age when their child was okay on a small framed 26" 
wheeled bicycle?


On Wednesday, February 17, 2016 at 4:53:50 PM UTC-5, Eric Daume wrote:
>
> Probably it's not a big deal since you ride a mixte, but I would make darn 
> sure my boy would ride a "girl's bike" before I'd spend that kind of money 
> on a Clementine.
>
> Eric
> who had a Cheviot, so don't take that "girl's bike" thing the wrong way
>
> On Wed, Feb 17, 2016 at 10:52 AM, 'Mark in Beacon' via RBW Owners Bunch <
> rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com > wrote:
>
>> The PSA about the 45cm Clem got me thinking. I am tempted to buy it for 
>> my little guy, but a Clementine would make more sense, since the high bar 
>> version requires a minimum of 73cm PBH, while the low will accommodate a 
>> 67cm PBH. Then I noticed that Riv is selling a blemished black 45cm 
>> Clementine. The other cool thing is it would be an exact match to my black 
>> 52cm. (The CL bike is $200 less, though.)
>>
>> It would be a big stretch for me financially, but if I could put it into 
>> use within 2 years (and maybe lend it to a shorter friend meanwhile) it 
>> might make sense, especially since I have most if not all parts lying 
>> around. 
>>
>> I know some folks have bought Clems for their kids. Just wondering what 
>> the youngest age/size is among the junior Clemmers? My guy is 6 years old, 
>> in the 97th percent for height at 50", will measure his PBH tonight. He 
>> currently rides a 20" Hotrocks. Getting him on a great-riding bike like the 
>> Clem at an early age would be wonderful. But realistically it could be 
>> another 4-5 years I suppose? Also curious if any of the Roscoes, which was 
>> originally concocted to designate a children's model, might be made in 
>> extra wee sizes.
>>
>> Any thoughts appreciated.
>>
>> -- 
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>>
>
>

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Re: [RBW] Dia Compe "G" brakes?

[Joe Bunik]

Dia-Compe 'G' sidepull notes:
• vintage single-pivot, acceptable performance but well worth upgrading the pads
• notorious for being "backwards" - with the barrel arm on the
right... which is great for front-lever-right setups.
• indeed, they do have better fender clearance than many other vintage sidepulls


On 2/17/16, Patrick Moore  wrote:
> See photo below.
>
> I might replace the wide mouth Silvers on my '03 with these. Questions:
>
> 1. Are they stiff? I take it that cold forged means stiffer while being
> less bulky. These look svelte.
>
> 2. How well does the QR work on these? I'll have to get 30 mm tires through
> them.
>
> 3. The shape of the arch looks as if it will accommodate fenders well -- 50
> mm Berthouds, in this case. Can anyone describe how they work with fenders?
>
> 4. Finally, how well do they stop with salmon pads? I've used top line 600,
> Superbe Pro, and Royal Grand Compe 57s and they stop very well. Will these
> do as well?
>
> Thanks, Patrick
>
> [image: Inline image 1]
>
> --
> Resumes, LinkedIn profiles, bios, and letters that get interviews.
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> **
> **
> *The point which is the pivot of the norm is the motionless center of a
> circumference on which all conditions, distinctions, and individualities
> revolve. *Chuang Tzu
>
> *Stat crux dum volvitur orbis.* *(The cross stands motionless while the
> world revolves.) *Carthusian motto
>
> *It is *we *who change; *He* remains the same.* Eckhart
>
> *Kinei hos eromenon.* (*It moves [all things] as the beloved.) *Aristotle
>
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Re: [RBW] Re: RBW and Meaning

[Deacon Patrick]

Exactly!

With abandon,
Patrick

On Wednesday, February 17, 2016 at 6:50:48 PM UTC-7, Patrick Moore wrote:
>
> On the whole I agree. In part:
>
> On Wed, Feb 17, 2016 at 5:36 PM, Deacon Patrick  > wrote:
>
>> Freedom. Including from the bicycle itself and from the need to be 
>> attired a certain way to go riding. Hop on. Just ride. Live. 
>>
>
> For the type of riding you and even that I do, Deacon, we *always* need 
> cycle-appropriate clothing. Rivendell's catalogue is *full* of cycling 
> clothing! You'd not ride the mountains in summer in a tight-cut, 2-slit, 
> heavily lined tweed sportcoat, or pedal in Tony Lamas. You mean that Riv 
> designs allow you to ride in your *preferred* cycling clothing. Me too! I 
> don't see may cowboy boots, or 4" belt buckles or tight, low rise jeans, or 
> tuxedos or Bass Weejuns in the catalogue.
>
>  
>
>> The bike doesn't matter because it goes invisible. Except the bike 
>> eminently matters because a bike (or any other useful object) that doesn't 
>> go invisible in use limits the freedom of it's purpose. Ride a Rivendell 
>> then ride a BSO or write a novel on a Mac then write a novel on a PC and 
>> you'll kinesthetically understand. Invisibility in use is the apex of 
>> quality design.
>>
>
> Invisible? When I ride my Rivs, each pedal stroke (well, almost each) is a 
> moment of conscious, deliberate, luxurious awareness of and pleasure in the 
> Rivendell-designed bicycle. I've very definitely aware of the bike! I do 
> like Macs, too.
>
>>
>> My Hunqapillar and Quickbeam harken back to an era of beauty emerging 
>> through craftsmanship more than design. A
>>
>
> No, no, no, no, no, absolutely not! Rivendells are triumphs of design, 
> that's why they are so good! Craftsmanship is good, but very much second 
> place. I'd much rather have a cheap tigg'd Rivendell road bike made in 
> China than a lovingly hand made, silver brazed, filed-lugged, pinstriped, 
> Reynolds 753 thinwall tubed version of a crit bike!
>
> But Rivendells *are* well made by humans, which is their *#2* quality. 
> Pretty is #3.
>  
>
>> n object (bike, hatchet, etc) that functioned well would inherently be 
>> beautiful and thus deserving of hearty use and longevity of care. There are 
>> some purely aesthetic touches, such as fancy paint (a natural extension of 
>> lugs, which I believe serve a functional role in addition to an aesthetic 
>> one. Aesthetics that do not interfere with function inherently enhance 
>> function by drawing us to a deeper appreciation of the function.
>>
>
> Now here we are in complete agreement and implicitly contradicting your 
> immediately earlier statement. Ananda Coomaraswamy! "An artist is not a 
> special kind of man, but every man a special kind of artist." "Art properly 
> meets the needs of the *whole* man." *Ars sine scientia nihil.*
>
> As to Surlyprof's request, oh my! One could write a *Summa Fabricationis* on 
> the subject, starting with the methods of production and its relation to 
> the prevailing *weltanschauung* and anthropology, given that what one 
> makes and how much and how derives directly from one's view of what is good.
>

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[RBW] FS: New 650B Dyno Wheel (Shimano DH-3N72) and Clem Bars (maybe)

[RDS]

See pics at https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B6Wb8pkSIAX6SG1wbnJTdzhOYVE

For sale is a brand new never used front wheel with a Shimano DH-3N72 dyno 
hub.  Wheel size is 650B as I requested that this be made for my 52 Clem. 
 I do not really have any details about the rim itself.  It is silver with 
no writing other than the "Rich Lesnik" sticker on the rim.  I have no idea 
how to measure a rim, but from outside-to-outside it looked like 25mm for a 
width.  I installed a tube and tire, but never put it on the bike (tube and 
tire not included).  Paid $280 and I will take $250 with me paying the 
shipping cost.  Wheel located in Georgia.

I am debating whether to sell my Clem 52.  If you are interested, contact 
me via email for questions.  The frame was damaged during shipping and has 
a dent on the top tube though no structural damage of any kind was done 
(probably the handlebars made the dent).  After speaking with Riv, I 
decided to keep the bike at the time and to their credit I received a Riv 
gift certificate though the damage was done by one of the shipper's.  I 
don't really find any fault with the Clem.  I have nothing negative to say 
about the Clem.  Something just doesn't feel right to me (probably due to 
my odd body proportions and stiff back).  I'm not sure what I am going to 
do at this point.  I may keep it, may just sell the original bars, may sell 
it as a frame, or might sell it complete at a good deal due to the frame 
dent.  Bike located in Georgia.

After all of that Clem rambling, if no one is interested in the bike, I may 
just sell the original bars.  I have no idea of a price range for these, so 
I'll listen to any reasonable offer.  Bars measure approx 56mm from outside 
to outside at the bar ends.

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Re: [RBW] Re: RBW and Meaning

[Patrick Moore]

On the whole I agree. In part:

On Wed, Feb 17, 2016 at 5:36 PM, Deacon Patrick  wrote:

> Freedom. Including from the bicycle itself and from the need to be attired
> a certain way to go riding. Hop on. Just ride. Live.
>

For the type of riding you and even that I do, Deacon, we *always* need
cycle-appropriate clothing. Rivendell's catalogue is *full* of cycling
clothing! You'd not ride the mountains in summer in a tight-cut, 2-slit,
heavily lined tweed sportcoat, or pedal in Tony Lamas. You mean that Riv
designs allow you to ride in your *preferred* cycling clothing. Me too! I
don't see may cowboy boots, or 4" belt buckles or tight, low rise jeans, or
tuxedos or Bass Weejuns in the catalogue.



> The bike doesn't matter because it goes invisible. Except the bike
> eminently matters because a bike (or any other useful object) that doesn't
> go invisible in use limits the freedom of it's purpose. Ride a Rivendell
> then ride a BSO or write a novel on a Mac then write a novel on a PC and
> you'll kinesthetically understand. Invisibility in use is the apex of
> quality design.
>

Invisible? When I ride my Rivs, each pedal stroke (well, almost each) is a
moment of conscious, deliberate, luxurious awareness of and pleasure in the
Rivendell-designed bicycle. I've very definitely aware of the bike! I do
like Macs, too.

>
> My Hunqapillar and Quickbeam harken back to an era of beauty emerging
> through craftsmanship more than design. A
>

No, no, no, no, no, absolutely not! Rivendells are triumphs of design,
that's why they are so good! Craftsmanship is good, but very much second
place. I'd much rather have a cheap tigg'd Rivendell road bike made in
China than a lovingly hand made, silver brazed, filed-lugged, pinstriped,
Reynolds 753 thinwall tubed version of a crit bike!

But Rivendells *are* well made by humans, which is their *#2* quality.
Pretty is #3.


> n object (bike, hatchet, etc) that functioned well would inherently be
> beautiful and thus deserving of hearty use and longevity of care. There are
> some purely aesthetic touches, such as fancy paint (a natural extension of
> lugs, which I believe serve a functional role in addition to an aesthetic
> one. Aesthetics that do not interfere with function inherently enhance
> function by drawing us to a deeper appreciation of the function.
>

Now here we are in complete agreement and implicitly contradicting your
immediately earlier statement. Ananda Coomaraswamy! "An artist is not a
special kind of man, but every man a special kind of artist." "Art properly
meets the needs of the *whole* man." *Ars sine scientia nihil.*

As to Surlyprof's request, oh my! One could write a *Summa Fabricationis* on
the subject, starting with the methods of production and its relation to
the prevailing *weltanschauung* and anthropology, given that what one makes
and how much and how derives directly from one's view of what is good.

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[RBW] Re: 26" vs. 700c for touring/load hauling

[dougP]

There you have it from someone with all 3 sizes.  Come to think of it, 
didn't BQ do a test a while back with 3 frames, one for each wheel size, 
that were otherwise identical?  IIRC, it was testing handling, and the 
conclusion was that the smaller wheels with chubbier tires could handle 
similarly to larger wheels with skinnier tires.  It boiled down to wheel & 
tire combinations with similar moments of inertia.  

dougP

On Wednesday, February 17, 2016 at 1:34:26 PM UTC-8, Hugh Smitham wrote:
>
> It's my perception that the 26" wheel is easier to get rolling and keep 
> rolling than 650b & 700c wheels. For me at least my Atlantis seems to climb 
> better than those other sizes and I have all three sizes. I've seen old MTB 
> & Touring large frames with 26" and the riders didn't seem to mind. I'll 
> grant that the larger wheel size looks proportionally better on a large 
> frame. And I hear a lot of comments on off road riding that the 29er size 
> rolls over obstructions better than the 26" but I have no practical 
> experience with that size off road. My 26" wheels have always been fine off 
> road. On availability I've been told the 26" wheel size is 
> ubiquitous overseas, so if you're a world traveler then it would seem 
> prudent to use a 26" wheel. 
>
> We're witnessing a boom in adventure bikes in the 29er and 27.5 category. 
> Those sizes seem risky overseas for the availability issue I mentioned 
> above. Beyond, availability and aesthetic what makes those sizes better 
> than 26"? It's not chubbier tires because the smaller wheel size can 
> accommodate more rubber with correct frame clearance design, example fat 
> tire bikes & the Rawland Ravn and I get the proportion deal but it all 
> seems like a component manufacturers push. I'm sure there's a Jan Heine 
> article out there on why 650b is the favored randonneur wheel size but I 
> bet a 26" would work fine for those events. Anyway, very good question 
> John. It seems the question has been answered regarding why Riv doesn't 
> have 26" in the larger sized frames. 
>
>
> Tail Winds,
>
> ~Hugh
>
>
>
> On Tuesday, February 16, 2016 at 10:46:53 AM UTC-8, john wrote:
>>
>> I'm wondering about the difference in tire sizes for loaded touring.
>>
>> Wouldn't a 26" wheel work better for loaded touring, regardless of the 
>> frame size?
>>
>> Why therefore doesn't Rivendell offer 26" wheels in their larger 
>> touring-capable frames, like the Atlantis and Hunq?
>>
>> What am I missing here?
>>
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: 26" vs. 700c for touring/load hauling

[Patrick Moore]

I know that "twenty niner" wheels -- with 65 mm tire mine have measured
almost 30", and the 51 mm tires on the wheels now measure 28.8" -- seem to
float through sand and smooth out small, high frequency bumps better than
tires 2" smaller, this for the same width.

On Wed, Feb 17, 2016 at 2:34 PM, Hugh Smitham  wrote:

> It's my perception that the 26" wheel is easier to get rolling and keep
> rolling than 650b & 700c wheels. For me at least my Atlantis seems to climb
> better than those other sizes and I have all three sizes. I've seen old MTB
> & Touring large frames with 26" and the riders didn't seem to mind. I'll
> grant that the larger wheel size looks proportionally better on a large
> frame. And I hear a lot of comments on off road riding that the 29er size
> rolls over obstructions better than the 26" but I have no practical
> experience with that size off road. My 26" wheels have always been fine off
> road. On availability I've been told the 26" wheel size is
> ubiquitous overseas, so if you're a world traveler then it would seem
> prudent to use a 26" wheel.
>
> We're witnessing a boom in adventure bikes in the 29er and 27.5 category.
> Those sizes seem risky overseas for the availability issue I mentioned
> above. Beyond, availability and aesthetic what makes those sizes better
> than 26"? It's not chubbier tires because the smaller wheel size can
> accommodate more rubber with correct frame clearance design, example fat
> tire bikes & the Rawland Ravn and I get the proportion deal but it all
> seems like a component manufacturers push. I'm sure there's a Jan Heine
> article out there on why 650b is the favored randonneur wheel size but I
> bet a 26" would work fine for those events. Anyway, very good question
> John. It seems the question has been answered regarding why Riv doesn't
> have 26" in the larger sized frames.
>
>
> Tail Winds,
>
> ~Hugh
>
>
>
> On Tuesday, February 16, 2016 at 10:46:53 AM UTC-8, john wrote:
>>
>> I'm wondering about the difference in tire sizes for loaded touring.
>>
>> Wouldn't a 26" wheel work better for loaded touring, regardless of the
>> frame size?
>>
>> Why therefore doesn't Rivendell offer 26" wheels in their larger
>> touring-capable frames, like the Atlantis and Hunq?
>>
>> What am I missing here?
>>
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**
**
*The point which is the pivot of the norm is the motionless center of a
circumference on which all conditions, distinctions, and individualities
revolve. *Chuang Tzu

*Stat crux dum volvitur orbis.* *(The cross stands motionless while the
world revolves.) *Carthusian motto

*It is *we *who change; *He* remains the same.* Eckhart

*Kinei hos eromenon.* (*It moves [all things] as the beloved.) *Aristotle

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Re: [RBW] Re: 26" vs. 700c for touring/load hauling

[Patrick Moore]

There is a pronounced opposite effect: smaller wheels are lighter and
"shorter" so their gyroscopic effect is less, and bikes shod with them are
more agile, or nervous if you prefer, though the overall handling of a
smaller-wheeled bike, at least those designed by Grant, can handle
impeccably. I've owned 3 26" wheel Riv customs + a roaded '92 XO-2.

As to the weight being lower (I don't know what "lower gyroscopic center of
gravity" means) that may indeed make them more stable under loads, as long
as the load is lower -- I've not particularly noticed that myself, but we
do tend to hang panniers as low as possible. It makes sense. I'd like to
try a 35 lb load on the rear of my Dahon 20 incher.

On Wed, Feb 17, 2016 at 11:33 AM, iamkeith  wrote:

>
> I'm surprised nobody has mentioned "stability."  I don't have enough
> experience to really know if it's true but, along with the worldwide
> availability, I always thought that was one of the main arguments for 26"
> wheels.  Basically, the idea that the lower gyroscopic  center of gravity
> of the wheels made the bike more stable and less prone to being blown or
> tipped over - which I assume is more important the bigger the load you're
> carrying.
>
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**
**
*The point which is the pivot of the norm is the motionless center of a
circumference on which all conditions, distinctions, and individualities
revolve. *Chuang Tzu

*Stat crux dum volvitur orbis.* *(The cross stands motionless while the
world revolves.) *Carthusian motto

*It is *we *who change; *He* remains the same.* Eckhart

*Kinei hos eromenon.* (*It moves [all things] as the beloved.) *Aristotle

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Re: [RBW] 26" vs. 700c for touring/load hauling

[Hugh Smitham]

 at 3:55 PM, Bill Lindsay  wrote:

> Hugh asked:
>
>
> "Speaking of geometry, since Grant and company are revising the Atlantis
> (longer chainstays) how is that going to make it a better bike? "
>
> *It won't make it a better bike unless you decide you like it better.  It
> will make it a different bike.  I trust both old and new Atlantii will be
> excellent, but different.  *
>

So often when a designer or manufacturer updates a given design it's lauded
as "better" or at the least regarded that way by adherents. But I agree not
necessarily better just different.

>
> "I've also heard others mention that they've had the front end lift up on
> them as they were climbing. That seems like a poorly distributed load
> situation to me with too much weight in the rear. I've never experienced
> this on either my Hilsen or my Atlantis? What gives here? "
>
> *On a really steep hill with an upright cockpit your whole body is poorly
> distributed with too much weight on the rear.  There's a ~20% section on
> one approach up the hill to my house, and it's hard keeping the front end
> down on an upright bike.  No matter what your position, there is a hill
> steep enough that will cause the front end to lift.  One solution is don't
> ride up >20% grades.  Another is bend down.  Another is put more weight in
> front.   There are other solutions.  Maybe longer stays will be one.*
>

Well on a >20% hill any bike's front end is going to want to rise up. On my
road bike that would most certainly be true and I'd be out of the saddle
partly due to gearing and to shift my weight to the front end to keep it
down. With a loaded tour bike I suspect most would be walking and having
longer chain stays on a >20% hill I suppose would help but most likely in
a negligible way. I think in most practical applications I don't see
many benefits other than your heel strike point below.

>
> "Seems to me that longer chain stays will make it a bit more stable and
> possibly a slightly poorer climber."
>
> *That's a reasonable guess.  When you ride one for yourself, you'll be
> able to judge for yourself.  For sure big-footed people who like big rear
> panniers will love the extra heel clearance.  My guess is that it won't be
> a poorer climber, but it's just a guess.  My Joe Appaloosa will be here in
> just a couple weeks!  I'll let you know what I think.  *
>

No plans to ride an Appaloosa anytime soon. I did ride a Proto-Appaloosa
last time I was at Riv Hq and I was underwhelmed. Just curious how others
will characterize the new changes?  I'll be interested in your ride notes.
Which of course will be subjective but none the less interesting.

"I've also heard from folks that the Atlantis is dead unloaded?  Again not
> my experience, unloaded the Atlantis feels downright lively."
>
> *Not my experience either.  My 58cm 700c Atlantis doesn't feel dead to me,
> but dead is in the eye of the beholder. *
>

Yup.

~Hugh

“Life is like riding a bicycle. To keep your balance, you must keep
moving.” ― Albert Einstein

http://velocipeedemusings.com/

>
>
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[RBW] Re: RBW and Meaning

[Deacon Patrick]

Freedom. Including from the bicycle itself and from the need to be attired 
a certain way to go riding. Hop on. Just ride. Live. The bike doesn't 
matter because it goes invisible. Except the bike eminently matters because 
a bike (or any other useful object) that doesn't go invisible in use limits 
the freedom of it's purpose. Ride a Rivendell then ride a BSO or write a 
novel on a Mac then write a novel on a PC and you'll kinesthetically 
understand. Invisibility in use is the apex of quality design.

My Hunqapillar and Quickbeam harken back to an era of beauty emerging 
through craftsmanship more than design. An object (bike, hatchet, etc) that 
functioned well would inherently be beautiful and thus deserving of hearty 
use and longevity of care. There are some purely aesthetic touches, such as 
fancy paint (a natural extension of lugs, which I believe serve a 
functional role in addition to an aesthetic one. Aesthetics that do not 
interfere with function inherently enhance function by drawing us to a 
deeper appreciation of the function.

With abandon,
Patrick

On Wednesday, February 17, 2016 at 5:10:42 PM UTC-7, Surlyprof wrote:
>
> How do you connect meaning (however you interpret that) with RBW, Grant’s 
> writings, bicycles in general and the design of bikes and other goods at 
> RBW (as well as B,B)?  Are there design choices made at RBW that boosts 
> that sense of meaning? 
>

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[RBW] RBW and Meaning

[Surlyprof]

For those of you who don’t know me, in addition to wanting a Rivendell 
bicycle for years, owning a Hillborne for a year or two and being a member 
of this group for over a year, I am also a professor of Industrial Design.  
This semester I have been teaching my course entitled, “Design and 
Meaning”.  The goal of the course is to prompt our students to explore 
various roles that meaning plays in the industrial design profession.  A 
portion of the time we look at the more artistic side of design and how 
designers express ideas using industrial design as a medium for 
expression.  Another aspect of the class covers semiotics and semantics and 
how designers can utilize form to communicate function.  The third topic of 
the course deals with meaning that people associate with and attach to the 
built environment that surrounds them.  As one of the lectures, I’ve been 
trying to pull together a lecture about RBW.  It seems to me that there are 
interesting connections between RBW, Grant’s ideas and meaning for many of 
us who own Rivendell bikes and accessories, belong to this group and/or the 
Facebook group, and believe in a cycling lifestyle that may veer from 
current mainstream bicycle culture. This is where my question lies… How do 
you connect meaning (however you interpret that) with RBW, Grant’s 
writings, bicycles in general and the design of bikes and other goods at 
RBW (as well as B,B)?  Are there design choices made at RBW that boosts 
that sense of meaning?  


Rather than presenting the students with just my take on that subject, I 
thought I'd solicit the thoughts of group members.  I’d be happy to field 
your thoughts via private responses but, if everyone is OK with this as a 
topic of open discussion, I think it might be a fun one to be shared in the 
group forum. Also, this is intended only for a course lecture/presentation 
and, even in that limited audience of 24 students, I will do all I can to 
protect every individual’s anonymity.  If this grows into something 
particularly interesting worth publishing somewhere, I would want to 
communicate with contributors before publishing anything anywhere.


So, there it is… any thoughts?

John

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[RBW] PSA: Compass cycling knickers back in stock

[Neil]

Looks like all sizes of the Compass Bicycles riding knickers are back in 
stock, in gray (no more khaki, yay!). Supposedly some modest improvements 
over the last version. Mine should arrive tomorrow, just in time for the 
weekend! It's been a lovely two weeks of dry weather here in Nor Cal, 
hoping to get out for a good ride this weekend.

Cheers,

Neil

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Re: [RBW] Re: Rear derailer on my Hillborne

[Chad]

That's a great price on probably one of the best 9-speed derailers still 
available.  I've not tried the SunXCD, but I am glad to hear it works great.  
Might try it on my Roadeo.  I found this interesting on the Riv product 
description page for the XT M772:

"Both shifts to 36t in back and work up to 10 speed index Shimano road STI 
systems."

I also have the M771 RD (non-shadow version) and it works great.

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Re: [RBW] 26" vs. 700c for touring/load hauling

[Hugh Smitham]

Thanks Norm. That's a good read. As others have stated from the get go
Grant has matched wheel size with frame size. So he could have gone with
26" straight across the board but went with aesthetics. That's not to say
the larger wheeled versions are any less capable.

~Hugh

“Life is like riding a bicycle. To keep your balance, you must keep
moving.” ― Albert Einstein

http://velocipeedemusings.com/



On Wed, Feb 17, 2016 at 3:49 PM, 'Norman Bone' via RBW Owners Bunch <
rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com> wrote:

> Thanks Hugh!
>
> It looks like 59 was a large as you could go with 26. Catalog says 61, 63
> and 65 went to 700c
>
> Riv Cat05 all-rounder
> 
>
>
> [image: image]
> 
>
>
>
>
>
> Riv Cat05 all-rounder
> 
> View on www.flickr.com
> 
> Preview by Yahoo
>
>
>
>
> --
> *From:* Hugh Smitham 
> *To:* RBW Owners Bunch 
> *Sent:* Wednesday, February 17, 2016 3:30 PM
>
> *Subject:* Re: [RBW] 26" vs. 700c for touring/load hauling
>
> Yeah Norm we know you have this beauty!! Thanks for rubbing it in dude :)
>
> ~Hugh
>
> “Life is like riding a bicycle. To keep your balance, you must keep
> moving.” ― Albert Einstein
>
> http://velocipeedemusings.com/
>
>
>
> On Wed, Feb 17, 2016 at 3:28 PM, 'Norman Bone' via RBW Owners Bunch <
> rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com> wrote:
>
> I have a 59 AR with 26" wheels. match built in '99.
>
> -Norm in PDX
>
> Rivendell All Rounder
> 
>
>
> [image: image]
> 
>
>
>
>
>
> Rivendell All Rounder
> 
> View on www.flickr.com
> 
> Preview by Yahoo
>
>
> --
> *From:* Steven Sweedler 
> *To:* "rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com" <
> rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com>
> *Sent:* Wednesday, February 17, 2016 1:53 PM
> *Subject:* Re: [RBW] 26" vs. 700c for touring/load hauling
>
> Do any listmembers have a large Riv All Rounder w/26" wheels. I recall
> that the first AR's in all sizes were 26" wheeled. Can anyone verify. My
> own AR is from 2000, a 64 cm and is 700 c.  Steve
> Apache Junction, Az.
>
> On Wednesday, February 17, 2016, Hugh Smitham 
> wrote:
>
> It's my perception that the 26" wheel is easier to get rolling and keep
> rolling than 650b & 700c wheels. For me at least my Atlantis seems to climb
> better than those other sizes and I have all three sizes. I've seen old MTB
> & Touring large frames with 26" and the riders didn't seem to mind. I'll
> grant that the larger wheel size looks proportionally better on a large
> frame. And I hear a lot of comments on off road riding that the 29er size
> rolls over obstructions better than the 26" but I have no practical
> experience with that size off road. My 26" wheels have always been fine off
> road. On availability I've been told the 26" wheel size is
> ubiquitous overseas, so if you're a world traveler then it would seem
> prudent to use a 26" wheel.
>
> We're witnessing a boom in adventure bikes in the 29er and 27.5 category.
> Those sizes seem risky overseas for the availability issue I mentioned
> above. Beyond, availability and aesthetic what makes those sizes better
> than 26"? It's not chubbier tires because the smaller wheel size can
> accommodate more rubber with correct frame clearance design, example fat
> tire bikes & the Rawland Ravn and I get the proportion deal but it all
> seems like a component manufacturers push. I'm sure there's a Jan Heine
> article out there on why 650b is the favored randonneur wheel size but I
> bet a 26" would work fine for those events. Anyway, very good question
> John. It seems the question has been answered regarding why Riv doesn't
> have 26" in the larger sized frames.
>
>
> Tail Winds,
>
> ~Hugh
>
>
>
> On Tuesday, February 16, 2016 at 10:46:53 AM UTC-8, john wrote:
>
> I'm wondering about the difference in tire sizes for loaded touring.
>
> Wouldn't a 26" wheel work better for loaded touring, regardless of the
> frame size?
>
> Why therefore doesn't Rivendell offer 26" wheels in their larger
> touring-capable frames, like the Atlantis and Hunq?
>
> What am I missing here?
>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> "RBW Owners Bunch" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an
> email to 

Re: [RBW] 26" vs. 700c for touring/load hauling

[Bill Lindsay]

Hugh asked:


"Speaking of geometry, since Grant and company are revising the Atlantis 
(longer chainstays) how is that going to make it a better bike? "

*It won't make it a better bike unless you decide you like it better.  It 
will make it a different bike.  I trust both old and new Atlantii will be 
excellent, but different.  *

"I've also heard others mention that they've had the front end lift up on 
them as they were climbing. That seems like a poorly distributed load 
situation to me with too much weight in the rear. I've never experienced 
this on either my Hilsen or my Atlantis? What gives here? "

*On a really steep hill with an upright cockpit your whole body is poorly 
distributed with too much weight on the rear.  There's a ~20% section on 
one approach up the hill to my house, and it's hard keeping the front end 
down on an upright bike.  No matter what your position, there is a hill 
steep enough that will cause the front end to lift.  One solution is don't 
ride up >20% grades.  Another is bend down.  Another is put more weight in 
front.   There are other solutions.  Maybe longer stays will be one.*

"Seems to me that longer chain stays will make it a bit more stable and 
possibly a slightly poorer climber."

*That's a reasonable guess.  When you ride one for yourself, you'll be able 
to judge for yourself.  For sure big-footed people who like big rear 
panniers will love the extra heel clearance.  My guess is that it won't be 
a poorer climber, but it's just a guess.  My Joe Appaloosa will be here in 
just a couple weeks!  I'll let you know what I think.  *

"I've also heard from folks that the Atlantis is dead unloaded?  Again not 
my experience, unloaded the Atlantis feels downright lively."

*Not my experience either.  My 58cm 700c Atlantis doesn't feel dead to me, 
but dead is in the eye of the beholder. *

*Bill Lindsay*

*El Cerrito, CA*

>
>

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Re: [RBW] 26" vs. 700c for touring/load hauling

['Norman Bone' via RBW Owners Bunch]

Thanks Hugh!
It looks like 59 was a large as you could go with 26. Catalog says 61, 63 and 
65 went to 700c
Riv Cat05 all-rounder

|   |
|   |  |   |   |   |   |   |
| Riv Cat05 all-rounder |
|  |
| View on www.flickr.com | Preview by Yahoo |
|  |
|   |




  From: Hugh Smitham 
 To: RBW Owners Bunch  
 Sent: Wednesday, February 17, 2016 3:30 PM
 Subject: Re: [RBW] 26" vs. 700c for touring/load hauling
   
Yeah Norm we know you have this beauty!! Thanks for rubbing it in dude :)
~Hugh

“Life is like riding a bicycle. To keep your balance, you must keep moving.” ― 
Albert Einstein
http://velocipeedemusings.com/



On Wed, Feb 17, 2016 at 3:28 PM, 'Norman Bone' via RBW Owners Bunch 
 wrote:

I have a 59 AR with 26" wheels. match built in '99.
-Norm in PDX
Rivendell All Rounder

|   |
|   |  |   |   |   |   |   |
| Rivendell All Rounder |
|  |
| View on www.flickr.com | Preview by Yahoo |
|  |
|   |


  From: Steven Sweedler 
 To: "rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com"  
 Sent: Wednesday, February 17, 2016 1:53 PM
 Subject: Re: [RBW] 26" vs. 700c for touring/load hauling
  
Do any listmembers have a large Riv All Rounder w/26" wheels. I recall that the 
first AR's in all sizes were 26" wheeled. Can anyone verify. My own AR is from 
2000, a 64 cm and is 700 c.  SteveApache Junction, Az.

On Wednesday, February 17, 2016, Hugh Smitham  wrote:

It's my perception that the 26" wheel is easier to get rolling and keep rolling 
than 650b & 700c wheels. For me at least my Atlantis seems to climb better than 
those other sizes and I have all three sizes. I've seen old MTB & Touring large 
frames with 26" and the riders didn't seem to mind. I'll grant that the larger 
wheel size looks proportionally better on a large frame. And I hear a lot of 
comments on off road riding that the 29er size rolls over obstructions better 
than the 26" but I have no practical experience with that size off road. My 26" 
wheels have always been fine off road. On availability I've been told the 26" 
wheel size is ubiquitous overseas, so if you're a world traveler then it would 
seem prudent to use a 26" wheel. 
We're witnessing a boom in adventure bikes in the 29er and 27.5 category. Those 
sizes seem risky overseas for the availability issue I mentioned above. Beyond, 
availability and aesthetic what makes those sizes better than 26"? It's not 
chubbier tires because the smaller wheel size can accommodate more rubber with 
correct frame clearance design, example fat tire bikes & the Rawland Ravn and I 
get the proportion deal but it all seems like a component manufacturers push. 
I'm sure there's a Jan Heine article out there on why 650b is the favored 
randonneur wheel size but I bet a 26" would work fine for those events. Anyway, 
very good question John. It seems the question has been answered regarding why 
Riv doesn't have 26" in the larger sized frames. 

Tail Winds,
~Hugh    



On Tuesday, February 16, 2016 at 10:46:53 AM UTC-8, john wrote:
I'm wondering about the difference in tire sizes for loaded touring.
Wouldn't a 26" wheel work better for loaded touring, regardless of the frame 
size?
Why therefore doesn't Rivendell offer 26" wheels in their larger 
touring-capable frames, like the Atlantis and Hunq?
What am I missing here?
-- 
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-- 
Steven Sweedler
Plymouth, New Hampshiret
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Re: [RBW] 26" vs. 700c for touring/load hauling

[Hugh Smitham]

Yeah Norm we know you have this beauty!! Thanks for rubbing it in dude :)

~Hugh

“Life is like riding a bicycle. To keep your balance, you must keep
moving.” ― Albert Einstein

http://velocipeedemusings.com/



On Wed, Feb 17, 2016 at 3:28 PM, 'Norman Bone' via RBW Owners Bunch <
rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com> wrote:

> I have a 59 AR with 26" wheels. match built in '99.
>
> -Norm in PDX
>
> Rivendell All Rounder
> 
>
>
> [image: image]
> 
>
>
>
>
>
> Rivendell All Rounder
> 
> View on www.flickr.com
> 
> Preview by Yahoo
>
>
> --
> *From:* Steven Sweedler 
> *To:* "rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com" <
> rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com>
> *Sent:* Wednesday, February 17, 2016 1:53 PM
> *Subject:* Re: [RBW] 26" vs. 700c for touring/load hauling
>
> Do any listmembers have a large Riv All Rounder w/26" wheels. I recall
> that the first AR's in all sizes were 26" wheeled. Can anyone verify. My
> own AR is from 2000, a 64 cm and is 700 c.  Steve
> Apache Junction, Az.
>
> On Wednesday, February 17, 2016, Hugh Smitham 
> wrote:
>
> It's my perception that the 26" wheel is easier to get rolling and keep
> rolling than 650b & 700c wheels. For me at least my Atlantis seems to climb
> better than those other sizes and I have all three sizes. I've seen old MTB
> & Touring large frames with 26" and the riders didn't seem to mind. I'll
> grant that the larger wheel size looks proportionally better on a large
> frame. And I hear a lot of comments on off road riding that the 29er size
> rolls over obstructions better than the 26" but I have no practical
> experience with that size off road. My 26" wheels have always been fine off
> road. On availability I've been told the 26" wheel size is
> ubiquitous overseas, so if you're a world traveler then it would seem
> prudent to use a 26" wheel.
>
> We're witnessing a boom in adventure bikes in the 29er and 27.5 category.
> Those sizes seem risky overseas for the availability issue I mentioned
> above. Beyond, availability and aesthetic what makes those sizes better
> than 26"? It's not chubbier tires because the smaller wheel size can
> accommodate more rubber with correct frame clearance design, example fat
> tire bikes & the Rawland Ravn and I get the proportion deal but it all
> seems like a component manufacturers push. I'm sure there's a Jan Heine
> article out there on why 650b is the favored randonneur wheel size but I
> bet a 26" would work fine for those events. Anyway, very good question
> John. It seems the question has been answered regarding why Riv doesn't
> have 26" in the larger sized frames.
>
>
> Tail Winds,
>
> ~Hugh
>
>
>
> On Tuesday, February 16, 2016 at 10:46:53 AM UTC-8, john wrote:
>
> I'm wondering about the difference in tire sizes for loaded touring.
>
> Wouldn't a 26" wheel work better for loaded touring, regardless of the
> frame size?
>
> Why therefore doesn't Rivendell offer 26" wheels in their larger
> touring-capable frames, like the Atlantis and Hunq?
>
> What am I missing here?
>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> "RBW Owners Bunch" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an
> email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
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> Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch.
> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
>
>
>
> --
> Steven Sweedler
> Plymouth, New Hampshiret
> --
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>
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You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google 

Re: [RBW] 26" vs. 700c for touring/load hauling

['Norman Bone' via RBW Owners Bunch]

I have a 59 AR with 26" wheels. match built in '99.
-Norm in PDX
Rivendell All Rounder

|   |
|   |  |   |   |   |   |   |
| Rivendell All Rounder |
|  |
| View on www.flickr.com | Preview by Yahoo |
|  |
|   |


  From: Steven Sweedler 
 To: "rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com"  
 Sent: Wednesday, February 17, 2016 1:53 PM
 Subject: Re: [RBW] 26" vs. 700c for touring/load hauling
   
Do any listmembers have a large Riv All Rounder w/26" wheels. I recall that the 
first AR's in all sizes were 26" wheeled. Can anyone verify. My own AR is from 
2000, a 64 cm and is 700 c.  SteveApache Junction, Az.

On Wednesday, February 17, 2016, Hugh Smitham  wrote:

It's my perception that the 26" wheel is easier to get rolling and keep rolling 
than 650b & 700c wheels. For me at least my Atlantis seems to climb better than 
those other sizes and I have all three sizes. I've seen old MTB & Touring large 
frames with 26" and the riders didn't seem to mind. I'll grant that the larger 
wheel size looks proportionally better on a large frame. And I hear a lot of 
comments on off road riding that the 29er size rolls over obstructions better 
than the 26" but I have no practical experience with that size off road. My 26" 
wheels have always been fine off road. On availability I've been told the 26" 
wheel size is ubiquitous overseas, so if you're a world traveler then it would 
seem prudent to use a 26" wheel. 
We're witnessing a boom in adventure bikes in the 29er and 27.5 category. Those 
sizes seem risky overseas for the availability issue I mentioned above. Beyond, 
availability and aesthetic what makes those sizes better than 26"? It's not 
chubbier tires because the smaller wheel size can accommodate more rubber with 
correct frame clearance design, example fat tire bikes & the Rawland Ravn and I 
get the proportion deal but it all seems like a component manufacturers push. 
I'm sure there's a Jan Heine article out there on why 650b is the favored 
randonneur wheel size but I bet a 26" would work fine for those events. Anyway, 
very good question John. It seems the question has been answered regarding why 
Riv doesn't have 26" in the larger sized frames. 

Tail Winds,
~Hugh    



On Tuesday, February 16, 2016 at 10:46:53 AM UTC-8, john wrote:
I'm wondering about the difference in tire sizes for loaded touring.
Wouldn't a 26" wheel work better for loaded touring, regardless of the frame 
size?
Why therefore doesn't Rivendell offer 26" wheels in their larger 
touring-capable frames, like the Atlantis and Hunq?
What am I missing here?
-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW 
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-- 
Steven Sweedler
Plymouth, New Hampshiret
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[RBW] Re: Rear derailer on my Hillborne

[Clayton.sf]

yes, it works. Even though the internets says it does not.

On Wednesday, February 17, 2016 at 2:01:09 PM UTC-8, drew wrote:
>
> just to be clear, we are saying that the 10 speed shadow/clutch 
> derailleurs work fine with 8 speed ultegra shifters in friction mode and 
> xd2 style cranks? 
>
> thats good news. 
>

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Re: [RBW] 26" vs. 700c for touring/load hauling

[iamkeith]

I have a large (60cm) with 26" wheels. 1999 model year.  Others are much 
more knowledgeable about changes and history, but my understanding is that 
2000 is when they switched to 700c for the larger models, so that would 
jive.

On Wednesday, February 17, 2016 at 2:53:08 PM UTC-7, Steven Sweedler wrote:
>
> Do any listmembers have a large Riv All Rounder w/26" wheels. I recall 
> that the first AR's in all sizes were 26" wheeled. Can anyone verify. My 
> own AR is from 2000, a 64 cm and is 700 c.  Steve
> Apache Junction, Az.
>
> On Wednesday, February 17, 2016, Hugh Smitham  > wrote:
>
>> It's my perception that the 26" wheel is easier to get rolling and keep 
>> rolling than 650b & 700c wheels. For me at least my Atlantis seems to climb 
>> better than those other sizes and I have all three sizes. I've seen old MTB 
>> & Touring large frames with 26" and the riders didn't seem to mind. I'll 
>> grant that the larger wheel size looks proportionally better on a large 
>> frame. And I hear a lot of comments on off road riding that the 29er size 
>> rolls over obstructions better than the 26" but I have no practical 
>> experience with that size off road. My 26" wheels have always been fine off 
>> road. On availability I've been told the 26" wheel size is 
>> ubiquitous overseas, so if you're a world traveler then it would seem 
>> prudent to use a 26" wheel. 
>>
>> We're witnessing a boom in adventure bikes in the 29er and 27.5 category. 
>> Those sizes seem risky overseas for the availability issue I mentioned 
>> above. Beyond, availability and aesthetic what makes those sizes better 
>> than 26"? It's not chubbier tires because the smaller wheel size can 
>> accommodate more rubber with correct frame clearance design, example fat 
>> tire bikes & the Rawland Ravn and I get the proportion deal but it all 
>> seems like a component manufacturers push. I'm sure there's a Jan Heine 
>> article out there on why 650b is the favored randonneur wheel size but I 
>> bet a 26" would work fine for those events. Anyway, very good question 
>> John. It seems the question has been answered regarding why Riv doesn't 
>> have 26" in the larger sized frames. 
>>
>>
>> Tail Winds,
>>
>> ~Hugh
>>
>>
>>
>> On Tuesday, February 16, 2016 at 10:46:53 AM UTC-8, john wrote:
>>>
>>> I'm wondering about the difference in tire sizes for loaded touring.
>>>
>>> Wouldn't a 26" wheel work better for loaded touring, regardless of the 
>>> frame size?
>>>
>>> Why therefore doesn't Rivendell offer 26" wheels in their larger 
>>> touring-capable frames, like the Atlantis and Hunq?
>>>
>>> What am I missing here?
>>>
>> -- 
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>
> -- 
> Steven Sweedler
> Plymouth, New Hampshiret
>

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[RBW] Re: Rear derailer on my Hillborne

[drew]

just to be clear, we are saying that the 10 speed shadow/clutch derailleurs 
work fine with 8 speed ultegra shifters in friction mode and xd2 style 
cranks? 

thats good news. 

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Re: [RBW] Clems for Kids

[Eric Daume]

Probably it's not a big deal since you ride a mixte, but I would make darn
sure my boy would ride a "girl's bike" before I'd spend that kind of money
on a Clementine.

Eric
who had a Cheviot, so don't take that "girl's bike" thing the wrong way

On Wed, Feb 17, 2016 at 10:52 AM, 'Mark in Beacon' via RBW Owners Bunch <
rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com> wrote:

> The PSA about the 45cm Clem got me thinking. I am tempted to buy it for my
> little guy, but a Clementine would make more sense, since the high bar
> version requires a minimum of 73cm PBH, while the low will accommodate a
> 67cm PBH. Then I noticed that Riv is selling a blemished black 45cm
> Clementine. The other cool thing is it would be an exact match to my black
> 52cm. (The CL bike is $200 less, though.)
>
> It would be a big stretch for me financially, but if I could put it into
> use within 2 years (and maybe lend it to a shorter friend meanwhile) it
> might make sense, especially since I have most if not all parts lying
> around.
>
> I know some folks have bought Clems for their kids. Just wondering what
> the youngest age/size is among the junior Clemmers? My guy is 6 years old,
> in the 97th percent for height at 50", will measure his PBH tonight. He
> currently rides a 20" Hotrocks. Getting him on a great-riding bike like the
> Clem at an early age would be wonderful. But realistically it could be
> another 4-5 years I suppose? Also curious if any of the Roscoes, which was
> originally concocted to designate a children's model, might be made in
> extra wee sizes.
>
> Any thoughts appreciated.
>
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Re: [RBW] 26" vs. 700c for touring/load hauling

[Steven Sweedler]

Do any listmembers have a large Riv All Rounder w/26" wheels. I recall that
the first AR's in all sizes were 26" wheeled. Can anyone verify. My own AR
is from 2000, a 64 cm and is 700 c.  Steve
Apache Junction, Az.

On Wednesday, February 17, 2016, Hugh Smitham  wrote:

> It's my perception that the 26" wheel is easier to get rolling and keep
> rolling than 650b & 700c wheels. For me at least my Atlantis seems to climb
> better than those other sizes and I have all three sizes. I've seen old MTB
> & Touring large frames with 26" and the riders didn't seem to mind. I'll
> grant that the larger wheel size looks proportionally better on a large
> frame. And I hear a lot of comments on off road riding that the 29er size
> rolls over obstructions better than the 26" but I have no practical
> experience with that size off road. My 26" wheels have always been fine off
> road. On availability I've been told the 26" wheel size is
> ubiquitous overseas, so if you're a world traveler then it would seem
> prudent to use a 26" wheel.
>
> We're witnessing a boom in adventure bikes in the 29er and 27.5 category.
> Those sizes seem risky overseas for the availability issue I mentioned
> above. Beyond, availability and aesthetic what makes those sizes better
> than 26"? It's not chubbier tires because the smaller wheel size can
> accommodate more rubber with correct frame clearance design, example fat
> tire bikes & the Rawland Ravn and I get the proportion deal but it all
> seems like a component manufacturers push. I'm sure there's a Jan Heine
> article out there on why 650b is the favored randonneur wheel size but I
> bet a 26" would work fine for those events. Anyway, very good question
> John. It seems the question has been answered regarding why Riv doesn't
> have 26" in the larger sized frames.
>
>
> Tail Winds,
>
> ~Hugh
>
>
>
> On Tuesday, February 16, 2016 at 10:46:53 AM UTC-8, john wrote:
>>
>> I'm wondering about the difference in tire sizes for loaded touring.
>>
>> Wouldn't a 26" wheel work better for loaded touring, regardless of the
>> frame size?
>>
>> Why therefore doesn't Rivendell offer 26" wheels in their larger
>> touring-capable frames, like the Atlantis and Hunq?
>>
>> What am I missing here?
>>
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Plymouth, New Hampshiret

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[RBW] Re: 26" vs. 700c for touring/load hauling

[Hugh Smitham]

It's my perception that the 26" wheel is easier to get rolling and keep 
rolling than 650b & 700c wheels. For me at least my Atlantis seems to climb 
better than those other sizes and I have all three sizes. I've seen old MTB 
& Touring large frames with 26" and the riders didn't seem to mind. I'll 
grant that the larger wheel size looks proportionally better on a large 
frame. And I hear a lot of comments on off road riding that the 29er size 
rolls over obstructions better than the 26" but I have no practical 
experience with that size off road. My 26" wheels have always been fine off 
road. On availability I've been told the 26" wheel size is 
ubiquitous overseas, so if you're a world traveler then it would seem 
prudent to use a 26" wheel. 

We're witnessing a boom in adventure bikes in the 29er and 27.5 category. 
Those sizes seem risky overseas for the availability issue I mentioned 
above. Beyond, availability and aesthetic what makes those sizes better 
than 26"? It's not chubbier tires because the smaller wheel size can 
accommodate more rubber with correct frame clearance design, example fat 
tire bikes & the Rawland Ravn and I get the proportion deal but it all 
seems like a component manufacturers push. I'm sure there's a Jan Heine 
article out there on why 650b is the favored randonneur wheel size but I 
bet a 26" would work fine for those events. Anyway, very good question 
John. It seems the question has been answered regarding why Riv doesn't 
have 26" in the larger sized frames. 


Tail Winds,

~Hugh



On Tuesday, February 16, 2016 at 10:46:53 AM UTC-8, john wrote:
>
> I'm wondering about the difference in tire sizes for loaded touring.
>
> Wouldn't a 26" wheel work better for loaded touring, regardless of the 
> frame size?
>
> Why therefore doesn't Rivendell offer 26" wheels in their larger 
> touring-capable frames, like the Atlantis and Hunq?
>
> What am I missing here?
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Rear derailer on my Hillborne

[Joe Bernard]

I parked near American Cyclery once many years ago. Never again!

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Re: [RBW] Re: Rear derailer on my Hillborne

[David Person]

I have both an XT and the SunXCD on bikes of mine.  I have not noticed a 
difference in performance between them.  The XCD has a barrel adjuster, the 
XT doesn't.  As far as the XCD being the same derailleur as the MicroShift 
R10, it's apparent from looking at pictures of each that they are not the 
same derailleur.  Similar, but not identical.  However, the MicroShift is 
quite a bit less expensive.  I bought the XCD purely for aesthetic reasons 
when I built my Sam last year.  Please with the performance, but it is 
quite a bit more money than the XT.  Mine is an M771.

David

On Wednesday, February 17, 2016 at 12:09:04 PM UTC-8, Surlyprof wrote:
>
> I appreciated everyone's quick feedback on this.  That xcd looks great 
> but, for the sake of convenience, supporting riv and cost, I went with the 
> xt.  They had dropped the price to $75.  The xcd would cost me $120 or more 
> and a trip over the bridge (and have you ever tried to park near American 
> Cyclery!?).  Still considering it long term.  Bet it looks smashing on the 
> Hillborne.
>
> John
>

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[RBW] Re: Could the end be near? Spring and happy Phil pawls

[Mark Reimer]

Good question! I did a quick Google and it seems they have their own brand 
of 'all season' oil, but I didn't find anything else. 

I've tried Phil pawl lube, tenacious oil, 10w40 motor oil, various chain 
lubes, etc. Triflow is the only thing I've found to work consistently below 
-10C. Even -5C was getting my 10w40 lube sticking a bit, which I found 
surprising. 

Strangely enough, my older 3-pawl phil wood road hub has never skipped in 
any temperatures, ever. But this new and 'improved' 4-pawl design Phil came 
out with a year or two ago has been brutal. This is my third freehub and my 
first time since getting the Atlantis that I've been able to ride in the 
cold without it skipping. 

I got the minimal and ultra light lube idea from some riders up in Alaska 
who used a few drops of Singer sewing machine oil. It's pretty similar to 
TriFlow. TriFlow is supposed to be good to -60C. I've had the 'pleasure' of 
trying it down to -40C and it's been working well. 

A friend of mine just bought a Rohloff, I'll ask him about its low temp 
performance. 

On Wednesday, February 17, 2016 at 2:50:47 PM UTC-6, dougP wrote:
>
> What lube is used in Rohloff hubs?  That would seem to be a tricky 
> problem, given all the whirling bits.  And the Germans deal with real 
> winter.  Maybe ATF?
>
> dougP
>
> On Wednesday, February 17, 2016 at 12:18:04 PM UTC-8, Deacon Patrick wrote:
>>
>> Amazing how our mitochondria adapt to the seasons so swiftly, helping us 
>> generate heat more than go in the winter and go more than heat in the 
>> winter. perhaps poor Phil's pawls need a mitochondria lube? Grin.
>>
>> Love your pictures as always!
>>
>> With abandon,
>> Patrick
>>
>> On Wednesday, February 17, 2016 at 12:37:51 PM UTC-7, Mark Reimer wrote:
>>>
>>> After sitting in the deep freeze so long, my body is all out of wack and 
>>> was feeling quite happy to ride for a few hours in nothing but a wool 
>>> jersey and jeans. It's funny, because come October I would be freezing cold 
>>> in warmer temperatures with more clothes!
>>>
>>

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[RBW] Re: 26" vs. 700c for touring/load hauling

[dougP]

My wife has a 47 cm Atlantis with 26" wheels, shod with 1.5" tires.  I have 
a 58 cm Atlantis with 700c wheels.  She has been known to leave me behind 
if she feels like it.  Any claimed performance differences based on wheel 
size are lost on me.  

dougP

On Tuesday, February 16, 2016 at 10:46:53 AM UTC-8, john wrote:
>
> I'm wondering about the difference in tire sizes for loaded touring.
>
> Wouldn't a 26" wheel work better for loaded touring, regardless of the 
> frame size?
>
> Why therefore doesn't Rivendell offer 26" wheels in their larger 
> touring-capable frames, like the Atlantis and Hunq?
>
> What am I missing here?
>

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[RBW] Re: Could the end be near? Spring and happy Phil pawls

[dougP]

What lube is used in Rohloff hubs?  That would seem to be a tricky problem, 
given all the whirling bits.  And the Germans deal with real winter.  Maybe 
ATF?

dougP

On Wednesday, February 17, 2016 at 12:18:04 PM UTC-8, Deacon Patrick wrote:
>
> Amazing how our mitochondria adapt to the seasons so swiftly, helping us 
> generate heat more than go in the winter and go more than heat in the 
> winter. perhaps poor Phil's pawls need a mitochondria lube? Grin.
>
> Love your pictures as always!
>
> With abandon,
> Patrick
>
> On Wednesday, February 17, 2016 at 12:37:51 PM UTC-7, Mark Reimer wrote:
>>
>> After sitting in the deep freeze so long, my body is all out of wack and 
>> was feeling quite happy to ride for a few hours in nothing but a wool 
>> jersey and jeans. It's funny, because come October I would be freezing cold 
>> in warmer temperatures with more clothes!
>>
>

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[RBW] Re: Could the end be near? Spring and happy Phil pawls

[Deacon Patrick]

Amazing how our mitochondria adapt to the seasons so swiftly, helping us 
generate heat more than go in the winter and go more than heat in the 
winter. perhaps poor Phil's pawls need a mitochondria lube? Grin.

Love your pictures as always!

With abandon,
Patrick

On Wednesday, February 17, 2016 at 12:37:51 PM UTC-7, Mark Reimer wrote:
>
> After sitting in the deep freeze so long, my body is all out of wack and 
> was feeling quite happy to ride for a few hours in nothing but a wool 
> jersey and jeans. It's funny, because come October I would be freezing cold 
> in warmer temperatures with more clothes!
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Rear derailer on my Hillborne

[Surlyprof]

I appreciated everyone's quick feedback on this.  That xcd looks great but, for 
the sake of convenience, supporting riv and cost, I went with the xt.  They had 
dropped the price to $75.  The xcd would cost me $120 or more and a trip over 
the bridge (and have you ever tried to park near American Cyclery!?).  Still 
considering it long term.  Bet it looks smashing on the Hillborne.

John

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Re: [RBW] Re: Rear derailer on my Hillborne

[Surlyprof]

The research I did this morning implies that the xcd was more of a touring 
randonneur derailleur whereas the xt was more of a mountain one.

John

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Re: [RBW] Re: Rear derailer on my Hillborne

[René Sterental]

I mean, the Sun XCD? How does it compare to the Shimano XT series?

On Wed, Feb 17, 2016 at 11:35 AM, René Sterental 
wrote:

> How does this one compare to the Shimano XT? Had never heard of it.
>
> René
>
> On Tue, Feb 16, 2016 at 10:27 PM, Lungimsam  wrote:
>
>> SunXCD rear derailer.
>> Its all silver.
>>
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>
>

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[RBW] Could the end be near? Spring and happy Phil pawls

[Mark Reimer]

I wrapped up a glorious weekend of riding yesterday. Temperatures rose to 
just below freezing. After sitting in the deep freeze so long, my body is 
all out of wack and was feeling quite happy to ride for a few hours in 
nothing but a wool jersey and jeans. It's funny, because come October I 
would be freezing cold in warmer temperatures with more clothes! But I'll 
take it all the same. 

I did a bunch of single track and frozen river trails on the Atlantis, 
about 150-200km over the weekend. It was also a chance to trouble shoot my 
endlessly problematic Phil Wood skipping pawl syndrome, which I'm so happy 
to say has finally stopped. After trying all manner of lubes and 
techniques, warranty replacements, sent back for service and more, I had 
resigned myself to conclude that Phil Wood pawls just can't handle Canadian 
prairie winter conditions. I'm not the only one to run into this problem... 
My latest attempt was a new freehub body from Phil with their heavier 
tandem spring, and no lube whatsoever except a single drop of triflow per 
pawl, against the rotating pawl surface. The hub feels fantastic, very 
'positive' engagement, and no PINGs or PANGs or PONGs when I get on the gas 
anymore. As it warms up I'll try moving toward a more standard form of pawl 
lube as this solution isn't great for longevity (but better than slipping 
pawls...)










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Re: [RBW] Re: Rear derailer on my Hillborne

[René Sterental]

How does this one compare to the Shimano XT? Had never heard of it.

René

On Tue, Feb 16, 2016 at 10:27 PM, Lungimsam  wrote:

> SunXCD rear derailer.
> Its all silver.
>
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[RBW] Re: 26" vs. 700c for touring/load hauling

[iamkeith]

I'm surprised nobody has mentioned "stability."  I don't have enough 
experience to really know if it's true but, along with the worldwide 
availability, I always thought that was one of the main arguments for 26" 
wheels.  Basically, the idea that the lower gyroscopic  center of gravity 
of the wheels made the bike more stable and less prone to being blown or 
tipped over - which I assume is more important the bigger the load you're 
carrying. 

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[RBW] Re: Rear derailer on my Hillborne

[Clayton.sf]

works very well with the xd2 crank and 8 speed chain. the longer cable pull 
even makes for more subtle trimmng.

On Wednesday, February 17, 2016 at 9:16:23 AM UTC-8, Chad wrote:
>
> Hmm, I never thought about using the Shimano 9-speed bar ends in friction 
> mode to support a clutched rear derailer.  I believe all the clutch 
> deraillers are 10-speed.  I wonder how this would work with the XD2 crank?

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Re: [RBW] Re: Possible FS: 2TT 64 Atlantis

[Mike Williams]

5'11+,   89.5 pbh

Sent from my iPhone

> On Feb 17, 2016, at 9:50 AM, 'Stephen Kemp' via RBW Owners Bunch 
>  wrote:
> 
> For reference, what height/pbh are you?
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[RBW] Re: Possible FS: 2TT 64 Atlantis

['Stephen Kemp' via RBW Owners Bunch]

For reference, what height/pbh are you?

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Re: [RBW] Re: Rear derailer on my Hillborne

[Jim Bronson]

I have the Microshift R10 also and it works great and looks pretty in shiny
silver.
On Feb 17, 2016 08:49, "Ron Mc"  wrote:

> Adding to the SunXCD choice is the Microshift R10, which is the same
> derailleur at lower cost.  Aside from that, I would dodge the low-end
> Shimano in favor of improved materials and Q/C on the higher-grade
> choices.  Since the 70s, Shimano has designed a weight-saving stress-riser
> into all their RDs, which I don't trust with the possibility of material
> flaws.
>
> On Wednesday, February 17, 2016 at 12:27:20 AM UTC-6, Lungimsam wrote:
>>
>> SunXCD rear derailer.
>> Its all silver.
>
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[RBW] Re: Rear derailer on my Hillborne

[Lungimsam]

Be sure to click on the pic of the XCD in the catalog mentioned above so 
you can see the sparkle effect. It does that when you hit 30mph. ;) 

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[RBW] Re: Rear derailer on my Hillborne

[Lungimsam]

Here's a catalog of rear derailers that Rivendell bike riders use. Please 
feel free to keep adding to the list, everyone!
 
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!searchin/rbw-owners-bunch/WHAT$20DO$20RIVENDELL$20RIDERS/rbw-owners-bunch/LHVpR62Ov-I/JIxhMiFMr-IJ

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[RBW] Re: Rear derailer on my Hillborne

[Lungimsam]

Here is a reference catalog of derailers riv riders use. Feel free to keep 
adding to the list everyone!
https://groups.google.com/forum/m/#!searchin/rbw-owners-bunch/Rear$20derailers/rbw-owners-bunch/LHVpR62Ov-I

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[RBW] Re: Rear derailer on my Hillborne

[Chad]

Hmm, I never thought about using the Shimano 9-speed bar ends in friction mode 
to support a clutched rear derailer.  I believe all the clutch deraillers are 
10-speed.  I wonder how this would work with the XD2 crank?

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[RBW] Re: Rear derailer on my Hillborne

[Clayton.sf]

To add one more o this. If you friction shift you can make a modern xt derailer 
work despite the different cable pull. At least it works with my 8 speed 
shimano ultegra shifters. Shifts very well across the whole cassette. Main 
reason to go that route is to get a clutched derailer. So much quieter - 
especially on dirt.

Clayton Scott
SF, CA

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[RBW] Possible FS: 2TT 64 Atlantis

[Michael Williams]

hey group,   Just putting this out there to see if theres any interest.   Its a 
64cm Atlantis,  2 top tubes,   ~ 18months young!   The bike is just a bit too 
big.  Asking $1500 for frame/ fork/ headset.   If at all interested,  message 
me off list please!   Thanks!  -Mike

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[RBW] Re: 26" vs. 700c for touring/load hauling

['Steve D.' via RBW Owners Bunch]

When I first built my '03 Atlantis (51 cm), a friend gave me an earful of 
criticism for have 26" wheels--"Your bike will be too slow. "You should've 
gotten 700cc wheels." Uggh. Really, I've been riding/commuting on this 
bike, off and on, for 13 years. It's the most comfortable bike I've ever 
had, 26" wheels and all. I'm 5'9" tall with a long torso, short legs. The 
combination of wheel and frame size on my Atlantis suit me perfectly. I 
think the conventional wisdom on issues of wheel size being more or less 
efficient should be taken with a grain of salt. I've seen people on 20" 
wheel folding bike blow right past me. Yeah, I'm not the fastest rider, but 
not the slowest either.

I remember sometime ago somewhere that Grant had wrote something about the 
aesthetics of wheel/frame size. The gist was that 700cc wheels on smallish 
frames made the bike look funky; 26" wheels where better proportioned to 
smaller frame sizes, which, aesthetically, is a good call on his part. 
Grant's philosophy behind bike design and riding is what brought me to 
choosing a Riv over everyone else. 

Needless to say (but I'll say it anyway), I agree with Deacon and others, 
it's just a wheel, there is no ideal; it's all about compromise, and I 
think what it comes down to is comfort and aesthetics.


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[RBW] Re: Rear derailer on my Hillborne

[Surlyprof]

Wow!  Thanks everyone.  This is very helpful.  I hadn't thought about 
Jeff's suggestion of the "semi-vintage" XT derailleurs of the '90's.  I 
used to use both of those and couldn't kill either on previous mountain 
bikes I’ve owned.  Unfortunately, I need to purchase and install something 
today if I want to get to work tomorrow.  I also hadn’t thought about 
Lungimsam’s suggestion of the SunXCD.  It does look like a nice compliment 
to Silver shifters and Sugino cranks.  My Sam is pretty classic style with 
all silver details which the now-trashed LX complimented nicely.  
Aesthetically, the SunXCD might be a nice replacement.  A little research 
turned up that American Cyclery may carry them.  May have to stop there on 
my way up to Riv.  Of course that creates a different dilemma… to buy the 
Sun for the aesthetics (as well as the function) or buy from Riv.  I try to 
support Riv whenever possible.  I may have spent a little more on a couple 
of things (although not much more), but I feel like the return on 
investment has been exponential in great service, spot-on advice, fun 
conversations and just knowing that increasingly rare places like RBW still 
exist here in the bay area.  Either way, should be a fun day off with trips 
to bike shops!


John “so tempted to buy and try 3 different derailleurs” in Niles, CA 

On Tuesday, February 16, 2016 at 7:25:45 PM UTC-8, Surlyprof wrote:
>
> Riding my canti-Hillborne to work today, my pedals came to a very abrupt 
> stop.  One of the chain links popped and hooked the rear cage.  Not as bad 
> as Grant's incident on the blug but my trusty LX is now a severly damaged 
> single speed limping home tonight (after replacing the chain).  I thought 
> I'd run up to RBW HQ tomorrow to buy a replacement.  Now I'm faced with the 
> choice between the XT shadow and Grant's currently favored Altus.  I've 
> always had great success with xtr and xt's in the past (and, until today, 
> this lx).  Before I go, I'd love to solicit the thoughts and experiences of 
> the group.  I haven't bought and installed a replacement derailleur in many 
> years so any feedback is greatly appreciated.
>
> Thanks.
> John
> Niles, CA
>

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[RBW] Re: Clems for Kids

[Deacon Patrick]

The approach we decided to take with Clementines and kids is to buy mediums 
as the most likely to fit once they are full grown. Our 12 and 15 year olds 
are riding and loving them, to the point that I'd like to get our next 
round of two Isla bikes for the age you're talking about.  We started out 
trying to figure out how to stage the Clementines with a small, two 
mediums, and a large, but in the end realized the small would be outgrown 
in 5 years, and that we preferred to get then their adult vehicle and let 
them grow into it.

My primary advice is that seeing the exhuberant difference between an early 
90's Trek MTB with Bosco bars and the joy and enthusiasm, and delight and 
smooth easy riding, their joy of being able to lift their own bike, it is 
clear that the sooner quality bikes enter their lives the more fully they 
will appreciate riding them.

As a side note, I make it a requirement that they do as much of their own 
maintenance as I do (everything but headsets so far), so they have an 
inherent appreciation for the bike and how to treat it with care as they 
use and abuse it. I teach them and am with them for whatever help they 
need, of course. We've all daughters so far, so I'd expect a boy to be 
rougher on his bike, but that increased ownership is huge, and starting out 
at 6 is perfect.

Most importantly, have fun! Riding, wrenching, helping choose the bike in 
the first place -- what great adventures together!

With abandon,
Patrick

On Wednesday, February 17, 2016 at 8:52:42 AM UTC-7, Mark in Beacon wrote:
>
> The PSA about the 45cm Clem got me thinking. I am tempted to buy it for my 
> little guy, but a Clementine would make more sense, since the high bar 
> version requires a minimum of 73cm PBH, while the low will accommodate a 
> 67cm PBH. Then I noticed that Riv is selling a blemished black 45cm 
> Clementine. The other cool thing is it would be an exact match to my black 
> 52cm. (The CL bike is $200 less, though.)
>
> It would be a big stretch for me financially, but if I could put it into 
> use within 2 years (and maybe lend it to a shorter friend meanwhile) it 
> might make sense, especially since I have most if not all parts lying 
> around. 
>
> I know some folks have bought Clems for their kids. Just wondering what 
> the youngest age/size is among the junior Clemmers? My guy is 6 years old, 
> in the 97th percent for height at 50", will measure his PBH tonight. He 
> currently rides a 20" Hotrocks. Getting him on a great-riding bike like the 
> Clem at an early age would be wonderful. But realistically it could be 
> another 4-5 years I suppose? Also curious if any of the Roscoes, which was 
> originally concocted to designate a children's model, might be made in 
> extra wee sizes.
>
> Any thoughts appreciated.
>

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[RBW] Clems for Kids

['Mark in Beacon' via RBW Owners Bunch]

The PSA about the 45cm Clem got me thinking. I am tempted to buy it for my 
little guy, but a Clementine would make more sense, since the high bar 
version requires a minimum of 73cm PBH, while the low will accommodate a 
67cm PBH. Then I noticed that Riv is selling a blemished black 45cm 
Clementine. The other cool thing is it would be an exact match to my black 
52cm. (The CL bike is $200 less, though.)

It would be a big stretch for me financially, but if I could put it into 
use within 2 years (and maybe lend it to a shorter friend meanwhile) it 
might make sense, especially since I have most if not all parts lying 
around. 

I know some folks have bought Clems for their kids. Just wondering what the 
youngest age/size is among the junior Clemmers? My guy is 6 years old, in 
the 97th percent for height at 50", will measure his PBH tonight. He 
currently rides a 20" Hotrocks. Getting him on a great-riding bike like the 
Clem at an early age would be wonderful. But realistically it could be 
another 4-5 years I suppose? Also curious if any of the Roscoes, which was 
originally concocted to designate a children's model, might be made in 
extra wee sizes.

Any thoughts appreciated.

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Re: [RBW] Rear derailer on my Hillborne

[Chad]

I too use the M772 XT rear derailer that Riv sells on my Sam and it's been 
fantastic.  It survived a 3-mile section of mud last year in the Dirty Kanza 
when ever other rider was snapping rear derailers.  That being said, my Roadeo 
demo from Riv oddly enough has the cheapo Claris mid-cage rear derailer and it 
works surprisingly well.  It's fairly light, Indexes well at 9-speeds, supports 
a 32t cog, and has a 41t capacity.  Being a sob, I planned to ditch it right 
away, but I'll probably run it until I can afford a full 105 10-speed groupo.

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[RBW] Re: OT- Seattle road trip recommendations

[bo richardson]

Anacortes is not a bad option. The Islands are not a bad option.you can 
take a ferry to Vancouver Island and Victoria
from Friday Harbor. the candian dollar is weak right now so a side trip to 
Victoria is a nice day or two.
if you travel light you dont need a car. I think the airporter shuttle goes 
from seatac to anacortes. Seattle traffic can be a nightmare.

there is a great book store in Mt Vernon and another one in Bellingham.

personally i like the canadian gulf islands better than the American San 
Juans, but that may just be because
it is a bigger change of scene for me.

On Monday, February 15, 2016 at 10:57:38 AM UTC-9, franklyn wrote:
>
> Hi, Mike,
>
> I am not a Seattle resident but have vacationed yearly in the Pacific 
> Northwest for the last three years. I would recommend taking a drive up to 
> Anacortes and take the ferry to San Juan Islands. This time of the year, 
> the ferry traffic may be OK, but you should check out the online ferry 
> reservation for cars just to make sure you can get on the island. If you 
> can find rental and/or loaner bikes, you can park your car at the ferry 
> terminal in Anacortes and walk on the ferry without worrying about 
> reservation. You can also rent bikes on at least the main island.
>
> The great thing about the islands are that they are gorgeous and allow you 
> to do a whole host of activities--biking, hiking, kayaking. They are also 
> much dryer than the Olympic Peninsula and Seattle. I have read that the 
> islands have more than 260 dry days out of a year. The drive from Seattle 
> to Anacortes is just over an hour without traffic. And on the way back you 
> can drive on the west side of the peninsula from Anacortes back to Seattle.
>
> Here are some photos I took in the last three years. 
>
> San Juan Islands trips 
> 
>
> Have fun!
> Franklyn
>
> On Monday, February 15, 2016 at 9:18:19 AM UTC-8, M D Smith wrote:
>>
>> My SO is headed to Seattle in a few weeks for a work related training 
>> session.  I plan on joining her afterwards for a short Pacific Northwestern 
>> holiday. 
>>
>> I am not, unfortunately, going to be bringing a bike, but I hope to try 
>> out the bike share when we are in Seattle.   
>>
>> We are considering renting a car for a few days and exploring farther 
>> afield.  I have some questions for the Seattle folks on the list.   
>>
>> Could anyone offer any route suggestions for a short road trip?  We are 
>> tentatively thinking of heading around the Olympic peninsula.  How would 
>> that be, weather-wise, in early March?  Would heading somewhere inland 
>> (like Mt Rainier) be totally out of the question at that time of year?  Any 
>> other suggestions?  We are thinking we will have three days, two nights to 
>> work with. 
>>
>> We are happy just driving around and exploring, maybe some short walks, 
>> brewpubs, diners, cheap motels.  Any suggestions, tips, or warnings would 
>> be greatly appreciated! 
>>
>> Please respond directly to bee...@gmail.com so as not to clutter up the 
>> list with OT responses. 
>>
>> Thanks- Mike, thawing out in Bkln, NY 
>>
>>
>>

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[RBW] Re: Rear derailer on my Hillborne

[Will]

I have an Altus. It works like Riv says it does. Shifts well, trims easily. 
For 20-something bucks what's to lose? 

On Tuesday, February 16, 2016 at 9:25:45 PM UTC-6, Surlyprof wrote:
>
> Riding my canti-Hillborne to work today, my pedals came to a very abrupt 
> stop.  One of the chain links popped and hooked the rear cage.  Not as bad 
> as Grant's incident on the blug but my trusty LX is now a severly damaged 
> single speed limping home tonight (after replacing the chain).  I thought 
> I'd run up to RBW HQ tomorrow to buy a replacement.  Now I'm faced with the 
> choice between the XT shadow and Grant's currently favored Altus.  I've 
> always had great success with xtr and xt's in the past (and, until today, 
> this lx).  Before I go, I'd love to solicit the thoughts and experiences of 
> the group.  I haven't bought and installed a replacement derailleur in many 
> years so any feedback is greatly appreciated.
>
> Thanks.
> John
> Niles, CA
>

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[RBW] Re: Rear derailer on my Hillborne

[Ron Mc]

Adding to the SunXCD choice is the Microshift R10, which is the same 
derailleur at lower cost.  Aside from that, I would dodge the low-end 
Shimano in favor of improved materials and Q/C on the higher-grade choices. 
 Since the 70s, Shimano has designed a weight-saving stress-riser into all 
their RDs, which I don't trust with the possibility of material flaws.  

On Wednesday, February 17, 2016 at 12:27:20 AM UTC-6, Lungimsam wrote:
>
> SunXCD rear derailer.
> Its all silver.

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[RBW] Re: Stop, Swap and Save 2016

[KenP]

Thanks for the nice pictures. I went too and  bought a Riv cap and the 
Reader from Gravel and Grind; Frederick is an equally long drive, but it 
would be nice to visit and test ride James' Hunq which is a size 51.  Glad 
to know you two went.  Cheers, Ken

On Sunday, February 14, 2016 at 4:33:06 PM UTC-5, WETH wrote:
>
> Group member Steve (islaysteve) invited me to join him in attending the 
> Stop, Swap and Save in Westminster, MD.  The organizers describe it as the 
> largest indoor swap meet and bicycle expo on the East Coast: 
> http://www.stopswapandsave.com
>
> We left the DC area this morning about 7:30am and arrived in Westminster 
> with plenty of time for the 9am start.  Temperatures were 11* F as we 
> waited in line.  
>
> Inside the Carroll County Ag Center it was true bike geekery!  I loved 
> it!!  I am hard pressed to imagine new and vintage bike parts and gear not 
> available for sale.  
>
> A highlight for me was meeting James, a co-owner of Gravel & Grind, an 
> authorized Rivendell dealer in Frederick, MD.  They had the beautiful Red 
> Atlantis (that was shared in a recent post) on display along with a 
> Hunqapillar, a Clem, and a gorgeous black, double toptube Sam!  It was 
> wonderful to see these bikes in person-photos: 
> https://flickr.com/photos/86975051@N08/sets/72157662336106174. They also 
> had an assortment of Riv bags and hats.  Of course they also had coffee. 
>  The black Sam Hillborne is stunningly beautiful in person!
>
> Other highlights were the Bob Jackson and 1954 Holdsworth Sirocco 
> frames-photos here: 
> https://flickr.com/photos/86975051@N08/sets/72157662336106174
> Fortunately for my wallet, they were too big for me.
>
> I didn't buy much, but I enjoyed taking in so much bike goodness.  I 
> appreciate Steve letting me tag along.
>
> All the best,
> Erl
>
>
>

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Re: [RBW] Rear derailer on my Hillborne

[Jon Dukeman in the foothills of Colorado]

I love my XT shadow on my Sam.
Jon


>>

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Re: [RBW] Rear derailer on my Hillborne

[Tim Gavin]

I use the XT RD-M772 "shadow" derailleur on my Riv.  The M770 version of
that RD has "normal" cable routing.

On Wed, Feb 17, 2016 at 7:04 AM, Bruce Baker  wrote:

> Joe,
> Check out ebay there are a few listed that are pretty cheap.
>
> On Tue, Feb 16, 2016 at 10:25 PM, Surlyprof  wrote:
>
>> Riding my canti-Hillborne to work today, my pedals came to a very abrupt
>> stop.  One of the chain links popped and hooked the rear cage.  Not as bad
>> as Grant's incident on the blug but my trusty LX is now a severly damaged
>> single speed limping home tonight (after replacing the chain).  I thought
>> I'd run up to RBW HQ tomorrow to buy a replacement.  Now I'm faced with the
>> choice between the XT shadow and Grant's currently favored Altus.  I've
>> always had great success with xtr and xt's in the past (and, until today,
>> this lx).  Before I go, I'd love to solicit the thoughts and experiences of
>> the group.  I haven't bought and installed a replacement derailleur in many
>> years so any feedback is greatly appreciated.
>>
>> Thanks.
>> John
>> Niles, CA
>>
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>
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[RBW] FS: 58cm Sam Hillborne needs a home $1150 OBO

[Elton Pope-Lance]

Recent financial speed bumps mean this project isn’t going to happen.
Final price drop before it goes to eBay.

This is a new, never built green frameset.
BB and headset installed.
Seat post included.

$1150 shipped lower 48.

Save $150 on a new frame and get free shipping!
PayPal plus fees (or Friends & Family), check held for clearance, etc.

Please reply off-list with questions or interest.

Thanks for listening and passing it on.

-- 
Elton Pope-Lance
Natick MA

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Re: [RBW] Rear derailer on my Hillborne

[Bruce Baker]

Joe,
Check out ebay there are a few listed that are pretty cheap.

On Tue, Feb 16, 2016 at 10:25 PM, Surlyprof  wrote:

> Riding my canti-Hillborne to work today, my pedals came to a very abrupt
> stop.  One of the chain links popped and hooked the rear cage.  Not as bad
> as Grant's incident on the blug but my trusty LX is now a severly damaged
> single speed limping home tonight (after replacing the chain).  I thought
> I'd run up to RBW HQ tomorrow to buy a replacement.  Now I'm faced with the
> choice between the XT shadow and Grant's currently favored Altus.  I've
> always had great success with xtr and xt's in the past (and, until today,
> this lx).  Before I go, I'd love to solicit the thoughts and experiences of
> the group.  I haven't bought and installed a replacement derailleur in many
> years so any feedback is greatly appreciated.
>
> Thanks.
> John
> Niles, CA
>
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[RBW] Re: Rear derailer on my Hillborne

[WETH]

John,
Sorry to learn of your mechanical issues and glad you got home easily 
enough.  

I have used many different derailers over the years.  Currently I use the 
Altus on 2 Rivs, a Nashbar/microshift on 3 bikes, and a Deore on another. 
 I honestly cannot tell the difference.  (Good wine is also wasted on 
me--past a certain price point I cannot taste a difference)  

I also happen to like the look of the Altus and the price.  My sons and 
dogs have a habit of knocking my bikes over.  The bikes always seem to fall 
on the drive side and on occasion bend the derailleur.  Again the price of 
the Altus, makes replacing a bent derailleur a bit more palatable.

All the best,
Erl

On Tuesday, February 16, 2016 at 10:25:45 PM UTC-5, Surlyprof wrote:
>
> Riding my canti-Hillborne to work today, my pedals came to a very abrupt 
> stop.  One of the chain links popped and hooked the rear cage.  Not as bad 
> as Grant's incident on the blug but my trusty LX is now a severly damaged 
> single speed limping home tonight (after replacing the chain).  I thought 
> I'd run up to RBW HQ tomorrow to buy a replacement.  Now I'm faced with the 
> choice between the XT shadow and Grant's currently favored Altus.  I've 
> always had great success with xtr and xt's in the past (and, until today, 
> this lx).  Before I go, I'd love to solicit the thoughts and experiences of 
> the group.  I haven't bought and installed a replacement derailleur in many 
> years so any feedback is greatly appreciated.
>
> Thanks.
> John
> Niles, CA
>

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[RBW] Rear derailer on my Hillborne

[Jeff Bogdanovich]

I'm running a short cage claris on my Sam and I've been happy with it- that is 
to say, I don't think about it and just seems to work. It is nice choice for 
about $30.

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