[RBW] Re: FS- Jeff Lyon custom lugged road/randonneuring 58cm - $1400

[KevinS]

I'm very interested. Can we discuss through email? My contact is 
kevinsisem...@gmail.com. Thanks

Kevin

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[RBW] Re: 650b vs 700c

[Philip Kim]

Jan says 559x55 or 584x42 or 622x32 are his preferred optimal combinations

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[RBW] Bought a Riv

[Pondero]

Congratulations, Steve!

Since I've had the opportunity to ride and tour with you multiple times, the 
Riv you selected looks like a perfect match for you.  Commuting, touring, 
coffee outings, and even my annual Country Ramble would all be perfect 
applications.  I know you'll do a tasteful build, and we'll beg you for 
follow-up photos.

Chris Johnson
Sanger, Texas

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[RBW] Re: RBW succession planning

[Joe Bernard]

Yeah, no. I've been around there a few times over the years, and GP is quite 
clearly the boss. The Blug had increasingly become a split exercise - mostly 
Dave and Grant having to say "this is Dave" or "this is Grant" - and I think he 
wanted to divide it up again. Peeking Through the Knothole was originally 
Grant's personal separate page on the site when he introduced the blogging 
feature. 

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Re: [RBW] Where are the Brompton Owners or A Case of the Novembers

[Joe Bernard]

Oh I'll use it. Most people who try assist like it, so if you're a purist about 
pedal-only then don't get on an ebike ;) At 43 pounds I wouldn't want to lug it 
all over a train station every day, but that's not what I bought it for. It 
just arrived and I disconnected the front bag-with-battery and took it 
upstairs, then came back down for the bike. With just the motor weight, it 
isn't much heavier to carry than my Appaloosa with stuff in bags and and a full 
water bottle.

The plan is to use it for shopping trips around here, which is basically a 
giant drop down to town, then a giant push back home, plus maybe I'll put it in 
my itty bitty Fiat 500 for a trip to Mt. Diablo occasionally. I've always been 
a pretty slow rider, which has only been aided and abetted in recent years by 
age and lack of riding time, and I just don't have the patience anymore for 
grinding out endless hills; it's the kind of thing that tends to talk me out of 
riding. I'll report back after I've put a few rides on it. 

Slow Joe Bernard
Vallejo, CA.

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[RBW] Re: RBW succession planning

['Tim' via RBW Owners Bunch]

"They" figured "they" would give him a separate page? H.

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Re: [RBW] Re: Bought a Riv

[Patrick Moore]

Oh, oh, oh! Photos, please! (If the listmeister permits.) Riv content: it
has to be even more retrograde than any Rivendell.

On Fri, Dec 9, 2016 at 5:18 PM, Steve Butcher  wrote:

> Patrick, I've got a Tourist; but it's standard civilian grade. ;)
>
> On Friday, December 9, 2016 at 4:34:53 PM UTC-6, Patrick Moore wrote:
>>
>> HIPY PAPY BTHETHDTH THUTHDA BTHUTHDY to y'all. (That's "y'all," not "all
>> y'all.")
>>
>> [image: Inline image 1]
>>
>> I too want to see the custom mixte. What custom features?
>>
>> T'other day, looking forlornly for affordable DL-1s -- there are none, at
>> least none available to me -- I came across a blog entry by someone who had
>> himself made a custom and modernized DL-1 surrogate, but the man was so
>> focused on the style (which is undeniable, but still) and, even worse, on
>> himself, that I can't bear to link to it here.
>>
>> But I think out loud: custom Riv mixte (well, I don't need the mixte
>> part, but it won't hurt), built for one of the more exotic SA 3 speed hubs,
>> perhaps a KSW med ratio with drum brake, and of course a XL FDD combo front
>> dynohub cum drum brake. Full metal jacket -- or rather, full chain case.
>> Whoo hoo!
>>
>> Patrick Moore, who feels positively young compared to some of y'all.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Fri, Dec 9, 2016 at 12:07 PM, Ryan Fleming 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> I just turned 64 on Pearl Harbour Day and ordered a custom mixte Dec
>>> 31,2015...not the purple one in the BLUG .and I am eagerly awaiting it
>>>
>>> Not quite ready to dispose of the other 2 Rivendells, the X0-1 or the
>>> Peugeot PX-10 yet. But I am looking forward to riding the mixte which will
>>> be different from my other bikes, for sure. The new bike will have the
>>> Rivendell signature, though
>>>
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Re: [RBW] Re: Bought a Riv

[Steve Butcher]

Patrick, I've got a Tourist; but it's standard civilian grade. ;)

On Friday, December 9, 2016 at 4:34:53 PM UTC-6, Patrick Moore wrote:
>
> HIPY PAPY BTHETHDTH THUTHDA BTHUTHDY to y'all. (That's "y'all," not "all 
> y'all.")
>
> [image: Inline image 1]
>
> I too want to see the custom mixte. What custom features?
>
> T'other day, looking forlornly for affordable DL-1s -- there are none, at 
> least none available to me -- I came across a blog entry by someone who had 
> himself made a custom and modernized DL-1 surrogate, but the man was so 
> focused on the style (which is undeniable, but still) and, even worse, on 
> himself, that I can't bear to link to it here.
>
> But I think out loud: custom Riv mixte (well, I don't need the mixte part, 
> but it won't hurt), built for one of the more exotic SA 3 speed hubs, 
> perhaps a KSW med ratio with drum brake, and of course a XL FDD combo front 
> dynohub cum drum brake. Full metal jacket -- or rather, full chain case. 
> Whoo hoo!
>
> Patrick Moore, who feels positively young compared to some of y'all.
>
>
>
>
>
> On Fri, Dec 9, 2016 at 12:07 PM, Ryan Fleming  > wrote:
>
>> I just turned 64 on Pearl Harbour Day and ordered a custom mixte Dec 
>> 31,2015...not the purple one in the BLUG .and I am eagerly awaiting it
>>
>> Not quite ready to dispose of the other 2 Rivendells, the X0-1 or the 
>> Peugeot PX-10 yet. But I am looking forward to riding the mixte which will 
>> be different from my other bikes, for sure. The new bike will have the 
>> Rivendell signature, though
>>
>>

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[RBW] Re: Bought a Riv

[Steve Butcher]

Thanks everyone for the congrats!  I love it when a thread takes twists and 
turns like this; especially when it's so convivial.  

On Friday, December 9, 2016 at 10:43:11 AM UTC-6, Steve Butcher wrote:
>
> I've been lurking around RBWOB for quite awhile; bought and sold a few 
> things, too.  One thing I'd yet to do was actually own a Rivendell bike.  
> So, while checking out RBW frame specials what did I spy but a Rosco mixte 
> and it was my size!  Now I've been thinking about a mixte for a commuting 
> bike for awhile (especially as I age) and when my friend, Pondero, sent me 
> a link to a L-Clem on this forum, and said "old man bike?", I sent him a 
> message about the mixte and he said "Wow!" and I thought "okay, it's 
> finally time to pull the trigger".  So, with the blessings of my dear wife, 
> the check is in the mail this morning!  Next March, I turn 60 and plan to 
> have it built up by then for Spring commuting.  For now, I get to dream 
> about the details through the dark cold winter!  
>

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[RBW] Re: RBW succession planning

[Ryan Fleming]

yes I hear you and I didn't think you were being cynical or anything like 
that...regards ryan

On Friday, December 9, 2016 at 5:25:11 PM UTC-6, lum gim fong wrote:
>
> Ryan,
>
> I didn't mean that *Grant* would sell and ride. Sorry for not being clear.
>
> I was just saying that the easiest option for *any human* would be to 
> sell and ride.
> Especially if the $$ would render descendants financially secure for 
> generations to come.
>
>

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Re: [RBW] Where are the Brompton Owners or A Case of the Novembers

[Minh]

Joe,

It will be interesting to see if you end up using the electric portion or 
if you switch back to a normal wheel.  In my short time i haven't seen a 
need for that (but i don't generally see the need for an ebike), especially 
given the tradeoff in weight--which you would feel even more as a % with a 
brompton.  

It's great to see all the overlap between Rivs and Brommies.

  If anyone is considering the Ortlieb O-Bags, Brompton in the UK are 
closing out a few colors and given the weak pound it makes for a good deal 
with a hitch--they will not ship to the US so you'll need to find someone 
to proxy (either bringing it back or can mail it for you).   It looks like 
mail will still run 40 pounds to the US, but even then it's a lot less than 
the US prices.   If that doesn't work for you, i'd still keep an eye on the 
US sources to see if they close out the same bags in the next few weeks.

On Friday, December 9, 2016 at 1:01:48 AM UTC-5, Joe Bernard wrote:
>
> I shall be the owner of a black M3L tomorrow...with an electric kit! It's 
> a low-tech/low-power front wheel motor with a thumb throttle, intended to 
> be an assist on steep stuff or when you're just cold and tired and want to 
> get home. My first Brompton after admiring them for years, it should fit in 
> my little Fiat 500 Abarth just great :)
>
> Joe "a little help, please" Bernard
> Vallejo, CA.
>
>

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[RBW] Re: RBW succession planning

[lum gim fong]

Ryan,

I didn't mean that *Grant* would sell and ride. Sorry for not being clear.

I was just saying that the easiest option for *any human* would be to sell 
and ride.
Especially if the $$ would render descendants financially secure for 
generations to come.

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[RBW] Re: RBW succession planning

[lum gim fong]

That's quite a leap!

On Friday, December 9, 2016 at 11:59:38 AM UTC-5, Stephen Kemp wrote:
>
> I've wondered for a while what will happen to RBW when Grant retires. Of 
> course he'll never really retire but there must be some point when he 
> starts to hand over to the rest of the crew. The latest Blug entry on 
> ROSCOs says "ROSCO has been an opportunity for others here to learn about 
> frame design. I shouldn’t be the only one."
>
> Looks as if the process is underway!
>

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[RBW] Re: RBW succession planning

[Ryan Fleming]

I believe Grant has invested too much of himself to just sell to the 
highest bidder and ride off  into the sunset. I think he's a bike guy and I 
think  he'll always be a bike guy. He seems to be at the point where he has 
a well-chosen , committed crew working with him and when he does step down 
, he wants to leave Rivendell in  the best of hands...and he has delegated 
much of the day-to-day running of the business to others, wisely, so he can 
focus on what he does best.

I actually think it's a really  good thing that he's giving others the 
opportunity to design frames...my favourite designer  besides Grant , of 
course, would be Mark Abele...I love his clean ,  uncluttered  bikes (that 
Roadeo just sings!)  and  to my mind,  sometimes all the luggage distracts 
me from the pure lovely lines of those Riv  frames.

 

On Friday, December 9, 2016 at 4:42:23 PM UTC-6, lum gim fong wrote:
>
> Easiest thing to do would be to sell the business to the highest bidder 
> and ride off into the sunset! 
>

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[RBW] Re: RBW succession planning

[lum gim fong]

This is a funny thread because no one here knows the slightest thing about 
this issue and if it may or may ever be underway, and it ain't none of our 
business anyways!! 

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[RBW] Re: 650b vs 700c

[dougP]

I seem to recall an article on bike design by either Grant or Jan where the 
starting point is wheel size, with everything developing from there.  Now 
I'm guessing from here, but there is probably considerable size overlap 
that can be handled by a couple of sizes.  For instance, 26" works well for 
sub 50 cm frames but could get a bit wonky on 65 cm frame.  Likewise, I've 
seen some 700c wheeled small wheeled bikes that had really radical head 
tube angles to deal with TCO.  650B probably works in a lot of common mid 
sizes without weird compromises.  Of course, lots will depend on the tires 
as well.  

I have a 58 cm Atlantis with 700 x 40 tires.  I've also ridden a 56 cm with 
26" x 2.1" tires that felt right at home.  A 61 cm with 45mm tires felt way 
up the air. My PBH puts me in the overlap range for the 56 & 58 frames.  
But if you've found success with 700 there's no compelling reason to 
switch.  OTH, curiousity is an itch that begs to be scratched.  

dougP

On Friday, December 9, 2016 at 10:20:15 AM UTC-8, dstein wrote:
>
> 650b tires seemed to gain in popularity because you could fit wider tires 
> than 700c (with 700c being traditionally narrow in size both in the tire 
> clearance of frames made and the tires availabile), but now that wider 
> tires have gained in popularity in all sizes, including 700c, what are the 
> drawbacks to going 700c instead of 650b if you can easily and readily get 
> wide 42mm or larger tires on a lot of the new fangled gravel and allroad 
> bikes? Is there a tradeoff for making a 700c frame around large tires?  Or 
> has frame building come around enough to compensate for any trade offs? 
>
> I say this because I've tried a few 650 bikes but constantly find myself 
> gravitating towards 700c with wide tires. I understand from some of Grant's 
> writing that for smaller riders like myself 650b is a better design choice 
> and that's why there are several sizes within a model depending on the 
> size, so maybe it comes down to trade offs with geometry and rider height? 
> Even then, as a small 5'7" rider I still find I prefer wide 700c tires over 
> 650b. Or is it really just a matter of personal preference at this point?
>
> Was just skimming Jan's 'How Wide is Too Wide' article in the recent BQ 
> which got me thinking as they tested multiple widths and diameters, but 
> didn't really say how the wider tires on different diamaters came into play 
> (unless I missed it).
>
>
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: RBW succession planning

[Patrick Moore]

Aaow, Gawd, they're examining the chicken entrails. Grant, I hope you, as I
will indubitably be doing, will I or nil I, continue working until you are
too wrinkled to see out from under your eyebrows. Or retire tomorrow, if
you like.

Patrick "I'll retire when I die, and not a minute sooner" Moore

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[RBW] Re: RBW succession planning

[lum gim fong]

Easiest thing to do would be to sell the business to the highest bidder and 
ride off into the sunset! 

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Re: [RBW] Re: Bought a Riv

[Patrick Moore]

HIPY PAPY BTHETHDTH THUTHDA BTHUTHDY to y'all. (That's "y'all," not "all
y'all.")

[image: Inline image 1]

I too want to see the custom mixte. What custom features?

T'other day, looking forlornly for affordable DL-1s -- there are none, at
least none available to me -- I came across a blog entry by someone who had
himself made a custom and modernized DL-1 surrogate, but the man was so
focused on the style (which is undeniable, but still) and, even worse, on
himself, that I can't bear to link to it here.

But I think out loud: custom Riv mixte (well, I don't need the mixte part,
but it won't hurt), built for one of the more exotic SA 3 speed hubs,
perhaps a KSW med ratio with drum brake, and of course a XL FDD combo front
dynohub cum drum brake. Full metal jacket -- or rather, full chain case.
Whoo hoo!

Patrick Moore, who feels positively young compared to some of y'all.





On Fri, Dec 9, 2016 at 12:07 PM, Ryan Fleming 
wrote:

> I just turned 64 on Pearl Harbour Day and ordered a custom mixte Dec
> 31,2015...not the purple one in the BLUG .and I am eagerly awaiting it
>
> Not quite ready to dispose of the other 2 Rivendells, the X0-1 or the
> Peugeot PX-10 yet. But I am looking forward to riding the mixte which will
> be different from my other bikes, for sure. The new bike will have the
> Rivendell signature, though
>
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Holiday Saddle question

[Les Lammers]

On Friday, December 9, 2016 at 1:00:30 PM UTC-5, Steve Palincsar wrote:
>
> I've bought several from an ebay store located in Montreal Canada for 
> under $200 and have nothing but good things to say about them.   Clearly 
> not a replacement for Bill Laine, but a worthwhile resource nonetheless.  
> Also worth knowing about: if you have a question about Berthoud saddles you 
> can contact Berthoud directly via the contact form on their web site, and 
> they will answer you, and they speak English as well as French.
>
> I don't think it's feasible to expect Berthoud saddles to cost $99.  The 
> leather they use is scarce and hard to get, and other than the cleverness 
> in labor savings via automating or mechanizing part of the saddle 
> production process seen here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K0OeHK6sVEw 
> and here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z7G5RQieccI (the latter quite 
> short) I see zero evidence of any corner-cutting, cost-cutting or 
> penny-pinching going on.
>
> On 12/09/2016 12:30 PM, George Schick wrote:
>
> Speaking of price, I surfed around to find out what they (Berthoud's) do 
> cost and the first place that popped up was Wallbike.  But the site just 
> contained an announcement saying that Bill's hanging it up as of Dec. 2nd 
> and easing into retirement.  I hate to see him close down - it always felt 
> like you were doing business with a personal friend whenever you ordered 
> something from him. Best of luck in the sunset years, Bill! 
>
> So...it appears that Peter also sells them and, yes, they are rather 
> pricey.  But it's kinda like that post I made last week about the way 
> people object to the price of an Atlantis frame - it's all what you're 
> willing to spend in order to get the quality you want.
>
> On Friday, December 9, 2016 at 11:22:57 AM UTC-6, Daniel D. wrote: 
>>
>> I think it's about price more than anything.  Berthoud saddles start at 
>> what ~$200?  If you saw them on sale for $99 more people would be giving 
>> them a try.
>>
>> On Thursday, December 8, 2016 at 7:48:17 PM UTC-8, Bill in Roswell GA 
>> wrote: 
>>>
>>> I find it a bit funny that we never hear about the Berthoud saddles any 
>>> more. I guess most folks realized that a Brooks/Rivet/SA is more 
>>> comfortable for most people. However, even a used Berthoud goes for not 
>>> much less than near new price. Would be interesting to try one as I tend to 
>>> like saddles a bit on the firm side.  
>>>
>>> -
>
> I sent my unused SA back today and bought an Aspin with the 
> cutout Bill/Wall Bike has on the auction site. I have an older B-17 that I 
> sent to SA years ago to have the cut out done. It was magic for me. Still 
> like it but this thread pushed me over the edge, :-)
>

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[RBW] Re: RBW succession planning

[dougP]

Succession is always a headache in a small, privately held operation.  It's 
rare that the owner can pull out enough cash to develop an independent 
retirement plan.  More commonly, employees with a vested interest in the 
on-going success of the concern will assume greater responsibility over 
time, with a reasonable compensation arrangement for the owner.  It takes 
considerable time and detailed planning to make it work for all concerned.  
If you consider the ages and tenures of some of the employees,  Rivendell 
will continue to offer bikes not commonly found elsewhere for a long time 
to come.

But then, this has been my year to be wrong on a number of things, 
including the Cubs.  

dougP

On Friday, December 9, 2016 at 8:59:38 AM UTC-8, Stephen Kemp wrote:
>
> I've wondered for a while what will happen to RBW when Grant retires. Of 
> course he'll never really retire but there must be some point when he 
> starts to hand over to the rest of the crew. The latest Blug entry on 
> ROSCOs says "ROSCO has been an opportunity for others here to learn about 
> frame design. I shouldn’t be the only one."
>
> Looks as if the process is underway!
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Fall Clean-up - Delays for the Moderated & A Few Thoughts

[Ryan Fleming]

Yes, Jim...I still like your old site too...and really enjoyed your posts 
as well. And people like you make the owners bunch the mostly (99%) polite 
and civilised group that it is where I think we all try hard not to hurt 
anyone's feelings

On Tuesday, December 6, 2016 at 11:20:42 AM UTC-6, Cyclofiend Jim wrote:
>
> Hey there Max - 
>
> Thanks for the kind words - always great to hear from you.
>
> I keep looking at that and thinking about ways to evolve it.  Haven't hit 
> on the right idea yet.  
>
> - J
>
> On Fri, Dec 2, 2016 at 9:36 AM, reynoldslugs  > wrote:
>
>> Jim,
>> I join others in thanking you for your efforts.  
>>
>> BTW, I spent some time this morning on your old Cyclofiend site - - the 
>> flu has me working from home today, and I needed to improve my morale -  so 
>> I spent some time looking at the treasures you've collected on that site.  
>> Great work, and thanks again.
>>
>> Max Beach
>> Santa Rosa CA  
>>
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>
>
>
> -- 
> Jim Edgar / cyclofiend.com / @cyclofiend
>

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[RBW] Re: Bought a Riv

[dougP]

Steve:

Good on you for pulling the trigger.  You're going to love the bike, I 
think.  Rivendell has said they intend their bikes to be ones you can grow 
old with, and I fully believe it.  Every once in a while I get the urge for 
a new bike, then hop on my Atlantis and ask myself "What am I looking 
for?", and the urge passes.  

dougP

On Friday, December 9, 2016 at 8:43:11 AM UTC-8, Steve Butcher wrote:
>
> I've been lurking around RBWOB for quite awhile; bought and sold a few 
> things, too.  One thing I'd yet to do was actually own a Rivendell bike.  
> So, while checking out RBW frame specials what did I spy but a Rosco mixte 
> and it was my size!  Now I've been thinking about a mixte for a commuting 
> bike for awhile (especially as I age) and when my friend, Pondero, sent me 
> a link to a L-Clem on this forum, and said "old man bike?", I sent him a 
> message about the mixte and he said "Wow!" and I thought "okay, it's 
> finally time to pull the trigger".  So, with the blessings of my dear wife, 
> the check is in the mail this morning!  Next March, I turn 60 and plan to 
> have it built up by then for Spring commuting.  For now, I get to dream 
> about the details through the dark cold winter!  
>

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[RBW] Re: Bought a Riv

[Ryan Fleming]

looked again at your mixte and that's going to be a neat looking 
bike...congrats ...enjoy..and apologies for highjacking the thread...oh and 
please  do share your pictures and impressions once you get 'er built up 

On Friday, December 9, 2016 at 10:43:11 AM UTC-6, Steve Butcher wrote:
>
> I've been lurking around RBWOB for quite awhile; bought and sold a few 
> things, too.  One thing I'd yet to do was actually own a Rivendell bike.  
> So, while checking out RBW frame specials what did I spy but a Rosco mixte 
> and it was my size!  Now I've been thinking about a mixte for a commuting 
> bike for awhile (especially as I age) and when my friend, Pondero, sent me 
> a link to a L-Clem on this forum, and said "old man bike?", I sent him a 
> message about the mixte and he said "Wow!" and I thought "okay, it's 
> finally time to pull the trigger".  So, with the blessings of my dear wife, 
> the check is in the mail this morning!  Next March, I turn 60 and plan to 
> have it built up by then for Spring commuting.  For now, I get to dream 
> about the details through the dark cold winter!  
>

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[RBW] Re: Bought a Riv

[Joe Bernard]

WOW, that custom mixte is...WOW. Of course it's exactly my size, and everything 
save the brakes would transfer from my Appaloosa. Sheesh!

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[RBW] Re: Bought a Riv

[Deacon Patrick]

One of the beautiful things about this group is it's like walking into Ye 
Ol' Eclectic Bike Shop and hearing a kaleidoscope of conversations and 
wondering which ones to pop into. Grin.

With abandon,
Patrick

On Friday, December 9, 2016 at 2:32:10 PM UTC-7, Bill Lindsay wrote:
>
> Haha.  I'm really slow on the uptake, apparently.  I'm sorry for dragging 
> the OP into the weeds like this.  Congrats to the OP on the new bike, and 
> best of luck to Lady Ryan Fleming (not necessarily from Maine) and her 
> custom anticipations.  ;-)
>
>
>

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[RBW] Re: Bought a Riv

[Bill Lindsay]

Haha.  I'm really slow on the uptake, apparently.  I'm sorry for dragging 
the OP into the weeds like this.  Congrats to the OP on the new bike, and 
best of luck to Lady Ryan Fleming (not necessarily from Maine) and her 
custom anticipations.  ;-)


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[RBW] Re: 650b article in RoadBikeRider newsletter

[lum gim fong]

One of the cats that works at RBR went on the BQ unmeeting ride. They also 
reviewed a pair of  Compass tires in one of their newsletters. 

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[RBW] Re: Bought a Riv

[Ryan Fleming]

Sorry, Bill...just to be clear , too, I'm not the lady from Maine who 
returned the custom on the web special. Also...I love those lugs. Yes, I 
 absolutely believe  my new bike will be worth the wait. 

Yes, good on Riv for building a new custom so that lady got exactly what 
she wanted. They do more than expected for customer service...but for 
 small company mistakes are costly


On Friday, December 9, 2016 at 2:35:31 PM UTC-6, Bill Lindsay wrote:
>
> Thanks Ryan for that.  I feel bad mainly for you.  It's an unfortunate 
> situation with no winners.  Hopefully it will be "worth the wait" as the 
> saying goes.
>
> Bill 
>
> On Friday, December 9, 2016 at 12:25:49 PM UTC-8, Ryan Fleming wrote:
>>
>> First of all - Ryan Flemingthat's me...is a she. Just to clear that 
>> upno offence taken as no offence meant
>>
>> My Mixte will be burgundy...that is what I ordered
>>
>> Yes, I feel bad for Riv and Mark Nobilette and JB that they have to let 
>> this go at a discount.
>>
>> But as a customer paying in my case 6500+ USD ahead of time , I would 
>> want my wishes to be accurately captured.. and .it would depend on which 
>> detail was missed. I get the long lead times and bike goes to Grant, then 
>> to Mark Nobilette then to Joe Bell ,and an important piece of info is 
>> missed/misunderstood...etc but for custom customers  I feel that Riv could 
>> initiate more timely communication. I don't  want to be that person who 
>> constantly nags and complains. But my  feeling  is that as a custom 
>>  customer, I  would appreciate timely updates as to where my bike is 
>> atsimilar to the Rosco updates or something. I suspect that the custom 
>> queue is not a large one. Now, in all fairness, when I've emailed riv about 
>> one detail or other , they have responded quickly, usually in the next 
>> business day. And it's  tough when I'm not  a local then I could just 
>> drop in and ask.  Note this is an observation and not a criticism of 
>> Rivendell per se. And remember , I work in the IT industry delivering 
>> systems ...and I know the communication snafus that can happen
>>
>> On Friday, December 9, 2016 at 1:43:23 PM UTC-6, Bill Lindsay wrote:
>>>
>>> Ryan said he ordered a custom Riv mixte 11+ months ago and is still 
>>> waiting for it
>>>
>>> Do you have any connection to the custom mixte on the Web Specials page?
>>>
>>> Custom Mixte 
>>> 
>>>
>>> Just curious.  That thing is gorgeous, but it makes me a little sick to 
>>> my stomach for Riv and for Mark Nobillette and for the customer that a 
>>> detail was forgotten that required another frameset to be built.  Damn this 
>>> ex-retail guilt!  I hate it when a LOONG transaction like that hits a 
>>> speedbump.  
>>>
>>> Bill Lindsay
>>> El Cerrito, CA
>>>
>>

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[RBW] Re: RBW succession planning

[lum gim fong]

Maybe they got a lot of complaints about that election blug post and they 
figured they would give him his separate page so that it will be more 
unattached from the business blog. 

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[RBW] Re: RBW succession planning

[masmojo]

So funny to see this come up, because I was thinking the same thing the other 
day after the first installment of Grants Blahg. The Blug's been taken over & 
he's been given a new space!? I  was thinking to myself "h, well, he is 
getting to retirement age!" And while in Grants case maybe "retirement" is 
probably not the right word or concept, I imagine he is starting to consider 
stepping back a little and then maybe later passing the torch.

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[RBW] Re: Bought a Riv

[Bill Lindsay]

Thanks Ryan for that.  I feel bad mainly for you.  It's an unfortunate 
situation with no winners.  Hopefully it will be "worth the wait" as the 
saying goes.

Bill 

On Friday, December 9, 2016 at 12:25:49 PM UTC-8, Ryan Fleming wrote:
>
> First of all - Ryan Flemingthat's me...is a she. Just to clear that 
> upno offence taken as no offence meant
>
> My Mixte will be burgundy...that is what I ordered
>
> Yes, I feel bad for Riv and Mark Nobilette and JB that they have to let 
> this go at a discount.
>
> But as a customer paying in my case 6500+ USD ahead of time , I would want 
> my wishes to be accurately captured.. and .it would depend on which detail 
> was missed. I get the long lead times and bike goes to Grant, then to Mark 
> Nobilette then to Joe Bell ,and an important piece of info is 
> missed/misunderstood...etc but for custom customers  I feel that Riv could 
> initiate more timely communication. I don't  want to be that person who 
> constantly nags and complains. But my  feeling  is that as a custom 
>  customer, I  would appreciate timely updates as to where my bike is 
> atsimilar to the Rosco updates or something. I suspect that the custom 
> queue is not a large one. Now, in all fairness, when I've emailed riv about 
> one detail or other , they have responded quickly, usually in the next 
> business day. And it's  tough when I'm not  a local then I could just 
> drop in and ask.  Note this is an observation and not a criticism of 
> Rivendell per se. And remember , I work in the IT industry delivering 
> systems ...and I know the communication snafus that can happen
>
> On Friday, December 9, 2016 at 1:43:23 PM UTC-6, Bill Lindsay wrote:
>>
>> Ryan said he ordered a custom Riv mixte 11+ months ago and is still 
>> waiting for it
>>
>> Do you have any connection to the custom mixte on the Web Specials page?
>>
>> Custom Mixte 
>> 
>>
>> Just curious.  That thing is gorgeous, but it makes me a little sick to 
>> my stomach for Riv and for Mark Nobillette and for the customer that a 
>> detail was forgotten that required another frameset to be built.  Damn this 
>> ex-retail guilt!  I hate it when a LOONG transaction like that hits a 
>> speedbump.  
>>
>> Bill Lindsay
>> El Cerrito, CA
>>
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Bought a Riv

[Ryan Fleming]

Happy Birthday Timactually also I do like the lugs on the blue mixte on 
the web special

On Friday, December 9, 2016 at 2:02:12 PM UTC-6, Tim Gavin wrote:
>
> Happy belated birthday, Ryan!  I share your birthday of 12/7. 
>
> I didn't buy a Riv this year; I actually sold my #2 Riv (a Roadeo) a 
> couple weeks ago. 
>  
> I did buy a bike yesterday, though: a thoroughly non-Rivish Cannondale fat 
> bike.  I've ridden my first fat bike (a Specialized) very hard the 2 years 
> I've had it, so I jumped at the "upgrade" when I found a screaming deal on 
> this one.
>
> On Fri, Dec 9, 2016 at 1:07 PM, Ryan Fleming  > wrote:
>
>> I just turned 64 on Pearl Harbour Day and ordered a custom mixte Dec 
>> 31,2015...not the purple one in the BLUG .and I am eagerly awaiting it
>>
>> Not quite ready to dispose of the other 2 Rivendells, the X0-1 or the 
>> Peugeot PX-10 yet. But I am looking forward to riding the mixte which will 
>> be different from my other bikes, for sure. The new bike will have the 
>> Rivendell signature, though
>>
>> On Friday, December 9, 2016 at 11:01:34 AM UTC-6, Les Lammers wrote:
>>>
>>> Congrats and enjoy it! I'll be 65 in March and am building a gray 
>>> Chevoit. My old man old age bike. I'll keep my Bleriot until I'm to old to 
>>> get my leg over it. :-)
>>>
>>> On Friday, December 9, 2016 at 11:43:11 AM UTC-5, Steve Butcher wrote:

 I've been lurking around RBWOB for quite awhile; bought and sold a few 
 things, too.  One thing I'd yet to do was actually own a Rivendell bike.  
 So, while checking out RBW frame specials what did I spy but a Rosco mixte 
 and it was my size!  Now I've been thinking about a mixte for a commuting 
 bike for awhile (especially as I age) and when my friend, Pondero, sent me 
 a link to a L-Clem on this forum, and said "old man bike?", I sent him a 
 message about the mixte and he said "Wow!" and I thought "okay, it's 
 finally time to pull the trigger".  So, with the blessings of my dear 
 wife, 
 the check is in the mail this morning!  Next March, I turn 60 and plan to 
 have it built up by then for Spring commuting.  For now, I get to dream 
 about the details through the dark cold winter!  

>>> -- 
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>> "RBW Owners Bunch" group.
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>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
>>
>
>

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[RBW] Re: Bought a Riv

[Ryan Fleming]

First of all - Ryan Flemingthat's me...is a she. Just to clear that 
upno offence taken as no offence meant

My Mixte will be burgundy...that is what I ordered

Yes, I feel bad for Riv and Mark Nobilette and JB that they have to let 
this go at a discount.

But as a customer paying in my case 6500+ USD ahead of time , I would want 
my wishes to be accurately captured.. and .it would depend on which detail 
was missed. I get the long lead times and bike goes to Grant, then to Mark 
Nobilette then to Joe Bell ,and an important piece of info is 
missed/misunderstood...etc but for custom customers  I feel that Riv could 
initiate more timely communication. I don't  want to be that person who 
constantly nags and complains. But my  feeling  is that as a custom 
 customer, I  would appreciate timely updates as to where my bike is 
atsimilar to the Rosco updates or something. I suspect that the custom 
queue is not a large one. Now, in all fairness, when I've emailed riv about 
one detail or other , they have responded quickly, usually in the next 
business day. And it's  tough when I'm not  a local then I could just 
drop in and ask.  Note this is an observation and not a criticism of 
Rivendell per se. And remember , I work in the IT industry delivering 
systems ...and I know the communication snafus that can happen

On Friday, December 9, 2016 at 1:43:23 PM UTC-6, Bill Lindsay wrote:
>
> Ryan said he ordered a custom Riv mixte 11+ months ago and is still 
> waiting for it
>
> Do you have any connection to the custom mixte on the Web Specials page?
>
> Custom Mixte 
> 
>
> Just curious.  That thing is gorgeous, but it makes me a little sick to my 
> stomach for Riv and for Mark Nobillette and for the customer that a detail 
> was forgotten that required another frameset to be built.  Damn this 
> ex-retail guilt!  I hate it when a LOONG transaction like that hits a 
> speedbump.  
>
> Bill Lindsay
> El Cerrito, CA
>

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[RBW] Re: WTB: Brooks Cambium C17 Carved

[LBleriot]

You can get 'em for about $100 on Fleabay.

On Friday, December 9, 2016 at 11:01:09 AM UTC-5, Justin Schoop wrote:
>
> Subject says it all, don't really care about the color. I'd prefer one 
> that hasn't been used too much. Thanks!

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Re: [RBW] Re: Bought a Riv

[Tim Gavin]

Happy belated birthday, Ryan!  I share your birthday of 12/7.

I didn't buy a Riv this year; I actually sold my #2 Riv (a Roadeo) a couple
weeks ago.

I did buy a bike yesterday, though: a thoroughly non-Rivish Cannondale fat
bike.  I've ridden my first fat bike (a Specialized) very hard the 2 years
I've had it, so I jumped at the "upgrade" when I found a screaming deal on
this one.

On Fri, Dec 9, 2016 at 1:07 PM, Ryan Fleming 
wrote:

> I just turned 64 on Pearl Harbour Day and ordered a custom mixte Dec
> 31,2015...not the purple one in the BLUG .and I am eagerly awaiting it
>
> Not quite ready to dispose of the other 2 Rivendells, the X0-1 or the
> Peugeot PX-10 yet. But I am looking forward to riding the mixte which will
> be different from my other bikes, for sure. The new bike will have the
> Rivendell signature, though
>
> On Friday, December 9, 2016 at 11:01:34 AM UTC-6, Les Lammers wrote:
>>
>> Congrats and enjoy it! I'll be 65 in March and am building a gray
>> Chevoit. My old man old age bike. I'll keep my Bleriot until I'm to old to
>> get my leg over it. :-)
>>
>> On Friday, December 9, 2016 at 11:43:11 AM UTC-5, Steve Butcher wrote:
>>>
>>> I've been lurking around RBWOB for quite awhile; bought and sold a few
>>> things, too.  One thing I'd yet to do was actually own a Rivendell bike.
>>> So, while checking out RBW frame specials what did I spy but a Rosco mixte
>>> and it was my size!  Now I've been thinking about a mixte for a commuting
>>> bike for awhile (especially as I age) and when my friend, Pondero, sent me
>>> a link to a L-Clem on this forum, and said "old man bike?", I sent him a
>>> message about the mixte and he said "Wow!" and I thought "okay, it's
>>> finally time to pull the trigger".  So, with the blessings of my dear wife,
>>> the check is in the mail this morning!  Next March, I turn 60 and plan to
>>> have it built up by then for Spring commuting.  For now, I get to dream
>>> about the details through the dark cold winter!
>>>
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[RBW] Re: Bought a Riv

[Bill Lindsay]

Ryan said he ordered a custom Riv mixte 11+ months ago and is still waiting 
for it

Do you have any connection to the custom mixte on the Web Specials page?

Custom Mixte 


Just curious.  That thing is gorgeous, but it makes me a little sick to my 
stomach for Riv and for Mark Nobillette and for the customer that a detail 
was forgotten that required another frameset to be built.  Damn this 
ex-retail guilt!  I hate it when a LOONG transaction like that hits a 
speedbump.  

Bill Lindsay
El Cerrito, CA

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[RBW] Re: 650b vs 700c

[Bill Lindsay]

If you find that you prefer the handling of 700xWide wheels, then by all 
means ride them.  As you said, there are many tire choices.  Preference and 
interpretation of handling play a huge role.  The ways in which a smaller 
diameter wheel is objectively and measurably superior are as follows:

For a given rim extrusion, the smaller you make the rim, the lighter and 
stronger it is.  700c, being the biggest common diameter, is the weakest 
and heaviest of all choices for a particular extrusion.  If you never have 
wheel strength issues and are not a weight weenie, then wheel weight and 
wheel strength don't matter.  If you take lighter and stronger to their 
logical conclusion and run a bike with 12" wheels, you'll end up with a 
weird handling bike.  Shorter cranks are lighter and stronger, too, but 
people don't choose 140mm crank arms just because they are lighter and 
stronger.  Still the fact remains, smaller is bothlighter and stronger.  

For a given width tire with the same casing and tread, the smaller diameter 
is lighter.  

For a given second moment of inertia, you can run a wider tire on the 
smaller diameter rim.  A wider tire is safer, faster, stronger and more 
comfortable.  If you already like wide tires on the biggest diameter 
wheels, and don't care about second moment of inertia, then it doesn't 
matter.  

If you are a 'not tall' rider and insist on 700xWide  wheels, it's 
challenging to design a frame without TCO (toe clip overlap).  If you never 
ride slow and never turn sharply, TCO is not a big deal.  If you run flat 
bars, TCO is easy to avoid by designing the frame with a long front center. 
 Some riders absolutely refuse to tolerate TCO.  Others don't care at all. 
  

 

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[RBW] Bought a Riv

[Sky Coulter]

Congratulations on a super cool bike. If it had fit my wife i think i would 
have felt obligated to buy that one -  so pretty and functional!

Sky in new west

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Re: [RBW] WTB: Brooks Cambium C17 Carved

[Sky Coulter]

If you can't find a used one here, bike-discount.de has 'em for 88 euros right 
now:

http://www.bike-discount.de/en/buy/brooks-cambium-c17-carved-saddle-natural-rubber-men-black-405315

Sky in new west

> On Dec 9, 2016, at 8:01 AM, Justin Schoop  wrote:
> 
> Subject says it all, don't really care about the color. I'd prefer one that 
> hasn't been used too much. Thanks!
> 
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[RBW] Re: Bought a Riv

[Ryan Fleming]

I just turned 64 on Pearl Harbour Day and ordered a custom mixte Dec 
31,2015...not the purple one in the BLUG .and I am eagerly awaiting it

Not quite ready to dispose of the other 2 Rivendells, the X0-1 or the 
Peugeot PX-10 yet. But I am looking forward to riding the mixte which will 
be different from my other bikes, for sure. The new bike will have the 
Rivendell signature, though

On Friday, December 9, 2016 at 11:01:34 AM UTC-6, Les Lammers wrote:
>
> Congrats and enjoy it! I'll be 65 in March and am building a gray Chevoit. 
> My old man old age bike. I'll keep my Bleriot until I'm to old to get my 
> leg over it. :-)
>
> On Friday, December 9, 2016 at 11:43:11 AM UTC-5, Steve Butcher wrote:
>>
>> I've been lurking around RBWOB for quite awhile; bought and sold a few 
>> things, too.  One thing I'd yet to do was actually own a Rivendell bike.  
>> So, while checking out RBW frame specials what did I spy but a Rosco mixte 
>> and it was my size!  Now I've been thinking about a mixte for a commuting 
>> bike for awhile (especially as I age) and when my friend, Pondero, sent me 
>> a link to a L-Clem on this forum, and said "old man bike?", I sent him a 
>> message about the mixte and he said "Wow!" and I thought "okay, it's 
>> finally time to pull the trigger".  So, with the blessings of my dear wife, 
>> the check is in the mail this morning!  Next March, I turn 60 and plan to 
>> have it built up by then for Spring commuting.  For now, I get to dream 
>> about the details through the dark cold winter!  
>>
>

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Re: [RBW] 650b vs 700c

[Patrick Moore]

I just now wrote: "The Matthews has 700C X 51s and handles better than the
Fargo with 700C X 65s. (But the Fargo had more or less mtb geometry, the
Matthews more or less road geometry.)"

But I meant to say: "The Matthews with 700C X 51s handles better than the
Fargo with the same wheels and tires thanks to geometry better serving my
handling preferences. The Fargo had more or less mountain bike geometry,
the Matthews more or less road geometry."

[The lighter wheels and tires *did* greatly improve the feel and nimblenss
of the Fargo compared to the earlier wheelset that was 2lb 4 oz or so
heavier per wheel.]


On Fri, Dec 9, 2016 at 11:42 AM, Patrick Moore  wrote:

> Jan claims that there is a sort of handling sweet spot with the diameter
> of 650B X 42s, so that if you go to rims of different diameters, to
> preserve this sweet spot, you need to increase or decrease the size of the
> tire. It's in BQ somewhere, and while I forget the details, it has to do
> with circumferential weight as well as trail.
>
> Jan may be right; but I am not convinced yet.
>
> My experience is not nearly as broad a Jan's, but such as it is, I find
> excellent handling with all sorts of different diameters, widths, and
> weights. Here it is for what it has of worth for your question about 650B
> wheels.
>
> My best handling bikes have very light 559 wheels and handled wonderfully
> with 22 mm tires and do just as well with 29 mm ones. I've not had a 700C
> bike that handles as well*. The Ram and the Sam didn't handle as well, even
> with very nice tires (P Roubaix and Green whatchamacallems -- Jack Browns).
>
> The Matthews has 700C X 51s and handles better than the Fargo with 700C X
> 65s. (But the Fargo had more or less mtb geometry, the Matthews more or
> less road geometry.)
>
> I've not tried 650B in any width, so perhaps that's what I'm missing, but
> I don't think so, given others' reports.
>
> Largely, I think it comes down to:
>
> Frame design: a frame designed for light 559 wheels can handle as well as
> anything else, AFAIK. (Will this hold true for 406 bsd wheels? I dunno, but
> I expect not; I think Jan is right about an ideal wheel size for handling;
> just that it's a range and not an exact diameter.)
>
> Taste. (* "Well" here is always in the context of taste, of course.)
>
> Add to this: a larger wheel that is light will handle differently from one
> that is heavy; 29" wheels with sub 450 gram rims and 360 gram tires and no
> tubes may well gain back much of the nimbleness they lost (and couldn't
> retrieve by frame/fork design) from heavier 584 wheels -- right? At any
> rate, said wheels transformed the Fargo when swapped in for 800 gram rims
> and 800 gram tires and 250 gram tubes.
>
> That said, if my goal with an off road bike was nimbleness above all, I
> would not choose 700C wheels, light thought they be, since IME, light 559
> mtb wheels are more nimble yet. It's just that the difference diminishes
> with the light 700C wheels.
>
>

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Re: [RBW] 650b vs 700c

[Patrick Moore]

Jan claims that there is a sort of handling sweet spot with the diameter of
650B X 42s, so that if you go to rims of different diameters, to preserve
this sweet spot, you need to increase or decrease the size of the tire.
It's in BQ somewhere, and while I forget the details, it has to do with
circumferential weight as well as trail.

Jan may be right; but I am not convinced yet.

My experience is not nearly as broad a Jan's, but such as it is, I find
excellent handling with all sorts of different diameters, widths, and
weights. Here it is for what it has of worth for your question about 650B
wheels.

My best handling bikes have very light 559 wheels and handled wonderfully
with 22 mm tires and do just as well with 29 mm ones. I've not had a 700C
bike that handles as well*. The Ram and the Sam didn't handle as well, even
with very nice tires (P Roubaix and Green whatchamacallems -- Jack Browns).

The Matthews has 700C X 51s and handles better than the Fargo with 700C X
65s. (But the Fargo had more or less mtb geometry, the Matthews more or
less road geometry.)

I've not tried 650B in any width, so perhaps that's what I'm missing, but I
don't think so, given others' reports.

Largely, I think it comes down to:

Frame design: a frame designed for light 559 wheels can handle as well as
anything else, AFAIK. (Will this hold true for 406 bsd wheels? I dunno, but
I expect not; I think Jan is right about an ideal wheel size for handling;
just that it's a range and not an exact diameter.)

Taste. (* "Well" here is always in the context of taste, of course.)

Add to this: a larger wheel that is light will handle differently from one
that is heavy; 29" wheels with sub 450 gram rims and 360 gram tires and no
tubes may well gain back much of the nimbleness they lost (and couldn't
retrieve by frame/fork design) from heavier 584 wheels -- right? At any
rate, said wheels transformed the Fargo when swapped in for 800 gram rims
and 800 gram tires and 250 gram tubes.

That said, if my goal with an off road bike was nimbleness above all, I
would not choose 700C wheels, light thought they be, since IME, light 559
mtb wheels are more nimble yet. It's just that the difference diminishes
with the light 700C wheels.

On Fri, Dec 9, 2016 at 11:20 AM, dstein  wrote:

> 650b tires seemed to gain in popularity because you could fit wider tires
> than 700c (with 700c being traditionally narrow in size both in the tire
> clearance of frames made and the tires availabile), but now that wider
> tires have gained in popularity in all sizes, including 700c, what are the
> drawbacks to going 700c instead of 650b if you can easily and readily get
> wide 42mm or larger tires on a lot of the new fangled gravel and allroad
> bikes? Is there a tradeoff for making a 700c frame around large tires?  Or
> has frame building come around enough to compensate for any trade offs?
>
> I say this because I've tried a few 650 bikes but constantly find myself
> gravitating towards 700c with wide tires. I understand from some of Grant's
> writing that for smaller riders like myself 650b is a better design choice
> and that's why there are several sizes within a model depending on the
> size, so maybe it comes down to trade offs with geometry and rider height?
> Even then, as a small 5'7" rider I still find I prefer wide 700c tires over
> 650b. Or is it really just a matter of personal preference at this point?
>
> Was just skimming Jan's 'How Wide is Too Wide' article in the recent BQ
> which got me thinking as they tested multiple widths and diameters, but
> didn't really say how the wider tires on different diamaters came into play
> (unless I missed it).
>
>
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[RBW] Re: 650b vs 700c

[adam leibow]

i have two 700c bikes by the same maker (Black Mountain Cycles) and the 
road version has 25c tires, and the cross has 45c. when I stand the bikes 
up next to each other, the cross bike (with 45c) is significantly taller 
than the road bike - the handlebars and saddle sit quite a few cm higher. 
I'm not sure exactly what this means, but my guess is that sitting taller 
takes up more wind-space and is less aerodynamic. I'd also guess it also 
affects handling and center of gravity. The EOD (effective outer diameter) 
of the wheels is different due to tire size, and some people like to 
account for this by reducing the rim size to 650b. I think 650bX42c has 
roughly the same EOD as 700x23c, so if you don't want to increase your EOD 
and potentially throw off handling a bit, switching to 650b will let you 
increase tire size with minimal adverse effect on handling / geo. 

On Friday, December 9, 2016 at 10:20:15 AM UTC-8, dstein wrote:
>
> 650b tires seemed to gain in popularity because you could fit wider tires 
> than 700c (with 700c being traditionally narrow in size both in the tire 
> clearance of frames made and the tires availabile), but now that wider 
> tires have gained in popularity in all sizes, including 700c, what are the 
> drawbacks to going 700c instead of 650b if you can easily and readily get 
> wide 42mm or larger tires on a lot of the new fangled gravel and allroad 
> bikes? Is there a tradeoff for making a 700c frame around large tires?  Or 
> has frame building come around enough to compensate for any trade offs? 
>
> I say this because I've tried a few 650 bikes but constantly find myself 
> gravitating towards 700c with wide tires. I understand from some of Grant's 
> writing that for smaller riders like myself 650b is a better design choice 
> and that's why there are several sizes within a model depending on the 
> size, so maybe it comes down to trade offs with geometry and rider height? 
> Even then, as a small 5'7" rider I still find I prefer wide 700c tires over 
> 650b. Or is it really just a matter of personal preference at this point?
>
> Was just skimming Jan's 'How Wide is Too Wide' article in the recent BQ 
> which got me thinking as they tested multiple widths and diameters, but 
> didn't really say how the wider tires on different diamaters came into play 
> (unless I missed it).
>
>
>

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[RBW] 650b vs 700c

[dstein]

650b tires seemed to gain in popularity because you could fit wider tires 
than 700c (with 700c being traditionally narrow in size both in the tire 
clearance of frames made and the tires availabile), but now that wider 
tires have gained in popularity in all sizes, including 700c, what are the 
drawbacks to going 700c instead of 650b if you can easily and readily get 
wide 42mm or larger tires on a lot of the new fangled gravel and allroad 
bikes? Is there a tradeoff for making a 700c frame around large tires?  Or 
has frame building come around enough to compensate for any trade offs? 

I say this because I've tried a few 650 bikes but constantly find myself 
gravitating towards 700c with wide tires. I understand from some of Grant's 
writing that for smaller riders like myself 650b is a better design choice 
and that's why there are several sizes within a model depending on the 
size, so maybe it comes down to trade offs with geometry and rider height? 
Even then, as a small 5'7" rider I still find I prefer wide 700c tires over 
650b. Or is it really just a matter of personal preference at this point?

Was just skimming Jan's 'How Wide is Too Wide' article in the recent BQ 
which got me thinking as they tested multiple widths and diameters, but 
didn't really say how the wider tires on different diamaters came into play 
(unless I missed it).


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Re: [RBW] Re: Holiday Saddle question

[Steve Palincsar]

I've bought several from an ebay store located in Montreal Canada for 
under $200 and have nothing but good things to say about them.   Clearly 
not a replacement for Bill Laine, but a worthwhile resource 
nonetheless.  Also worth knowing about: if you have a question about 
Berthoud saddles you can contact Berthoud directly via the contact form 
on their web site, and they will answer you, and they speak English as 
well as French.


I don't think it's feasible to expect Berthoud saddles to cost $99.  The 
leather they use is scarce and hard to get, and other than the 
cleverness in labor savings via automating or mechanizing part of the 
saddle production process seen here: 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K0OeHK6sVEw and here 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z7G5RQieccI (the latter quite short) I 
see zero evidence of any corner-cutting, cost-cutting or penny-pinching 
going on.



On 12/09/2016 12:30 PM, George Schick wrote:
Speaking of price, I surfed around to find out what they (Berthoud's) 
do cost and the first place that popped up was Wallbike.  But the site 
just contained an announcement saying that Bill's hanging it up as of 
Dec. 2nd and easing into retirement.  I hate to see him close down - 
it always felt like you were doing business with a personal friend 
whenever you ordered something from him. Best of luck in the sunset 
years, Bill!


So...it appears that Peter also sells them and, yes, they are rather 
pricey.  But it's kinda like that post I made last week about the way 
people object to the price of an Atlantis frame - it's all what you're 
willing to spend in order to get the quality you want.


On Friday, December 9, 2016 at 11:22:57 AM UTC-6, Daniel D. wrote:

I think it's about price more than anything.  Berthoud saddles
start at what ~$200?  If you saw them on sale for $99 more people
would be giving them a try.

On Thursday, December 8, 2016 at 7:48:17 PM UTC-8, Bill in Roswell
GA wrote:

I find it a bit funny that we never hear about the Berthoud
saddles any more. I guess most folks realized that a
Brooks/Rivet/SA is more comfortable for most people. However,
even a used Berthoud goes for not much less than near new
price. Would be interesting to try one as I tend to like
saddles a bit on the firm side.

-


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Re: [RBW] Re: Holiday Saddle question

[Steve Palincsar]

On 12/09/2016 11:18 AM, George Schick wrote:

"...There is no panacea when it comes to saddles..."

Amen to that.  Also, things change over time.


No kidding.  I used Brooks Team Pros for close to 40 years, and B.17s 
for more than a dozen years with perfect satisfaction, and then one day 
they started to not work anymore.  It wasn't the saddles that changed, 
either: I changed.  Position didn't change, fit didn't change, but one 
year the saddles that felt great now started hurting around the 
perimeter, especially in the area where the saddle starts to narrow.  
Quite a shock, and quite an expense, too.  I'd thought for years that 
the "saddle merry-go-round" was finally over for me, that I'd found the 
answer for life; the only major perturbation was the scare when it 
looked like Brooks was going out of business.



When I started leaning toward "serious cycling" back in the early 70's 
I road bikes that the saddle jacked way up higher than the handlebars. 
It more or less had to be if one wanted to stick to the popular 
"groupo" of the day because Cinelli bar stems were too short to allow 
for much vertical adjustment.  So the saddles of choice were the 
narrower models like the Cinelli's.  Things progressed that way 
through the mid-90's when they more or less culminated with the Selle 
Italia Flite, a particularly stiff and narrow model.  About the time 
the turn of the century when the past-50 blues started playing, I 
discovered Grant and his various bike fitting methods and 
recommendations.  Now I ride with the bars level with the saddle and 
have been using a B17 ever since - far fewer aching back and neck 
pains after a ride.


And certainly, major changes in fit can call for major changes in saddles.




On Friday, December 9, 2016 at 7:25:29 AM UTC-6, Steve Palincsar wrote:


On 12/08/2016 10:48 PM, Bill in Roswell GA wrote:
> I find it a bit funny that we never hear about the Berthoud saddles
> any more. I guess most folks realized that a Brooks/Rivet/SA is
more
> comfortable for most people. However, even a used Berthoud goes for
> not much less than near new price. Would be interesting to try
one as
> I tend to like saddles a bit on the firm side.

Well, let's correct that.  A few years ago B.17s and Team Pro's
stopped
working for me.  I'd tried a Berthoud Aspin and found it worked,
and did
some unsuccessful experimentation with Rivet & SA.  I tried the Rivet
Pearl & Independence, and neither worked for me.  I bought a used SA
from a friend, tried it and found it OK for a 30 mile ride, but then
obtained a new one and found it bloody horrible: sharp edges at the
sides of the saddle really cut into my thighs.  Over the course of
the
next three years ended up switching all six bikes to Berthoud
saddles, 5
Aspins and one Aravis.  In many ways the Berthoud is a big
improvement
over the Brooks design.  The leather is better - thicker and more
consistent, tensioning is much easier - allen key fitting rather
than a
made-on nut requiring a special S-bend wrench, and the made-on bag
attachments - moulded in eyelets and a Klickfix mount - are vastly
superior to Brooks' metal loops (or nothing).   It takes longer to
break
in an Aspin than a B.17 because the leather is much thicker and
firmer.
Unlike SAs, Berthouds don't stretch much - at least, not the regular
unbutchered ones; I haven't tried the newly introduced slotted
models.

Regarding slotted saddles: they don't always work for everyone.
 On that
broken-in SA I never even noticed a slot was there.  Another friend
tried that same saddle when it was on a bike, before I bought it
and was
inspired to buy a new one; by the time we got to the 30 mile mark
on a
50 mile ride she was in such pain she bought a roll of duct tape
to tape
the slot over.  It was acting like a lobster claw, pinching her on
both
sides of the area slots are intended to protect.

There is no panacea when it comes to saddles.

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[RBW] Re: Holiday Saddle question

[George Schick]

Speaking of price, I surfed around to find out what they (Berthoud's) do 
cost and the first place that popped up was Wallbike.  But the site just 
contained an announcement saying that Bill's hanging it up as of Dec. 2nd 
and easing into retirement.  I hate to see him close down - it always felt 
like you were doing business with a personal friend whenever you ordered 
something from him. Best of luck in the sunset years, Bill!

So...it appears that Peter also sells them and, yes, they are rather 
pricey.  But it's kinda like that post I made last week about the way 
people object to the price of an Atlantis frame - it's all what you're 
willing to spend in order to get the quality you want.

On Friday, December 9, 2016 at 11:22:57 AM UTC-6, Daniel D. wrote:
>
> I think it's about price more than anything.  Berthoud saddles start at 
> what ~$200?  If you saw them on sale for $99 more people would be giving 
> them a try.
>
> On Thursday, December 8, 2016 at 7:48:17 PM UTC-8, Bill in Roswell GA 
> wrote:
>>
>> I find it a bit funny that we never hear about the Berthoud saddles any 
>> more. I guess most folks realized that a Brooks/Rivet/SA is more 
>> comfortable for most people. However, even a used Berthoud goes for not 
>> much less than near new price. Would be interesting to try one as I tend to 
>> like saddles a bit on the firm side. 
>>
>>

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Re: [RBW] Bike shop

[bo richardson]

and of course Free Range Cycles which has a selection of Nitto Technomic
stems in stock. As well as much else Rivish. Nice people.

And Wright Brothers, which is cranky and Old School.
Charles, by his own admission knows more about Eirish history than the UW 
department. 
I believe it.

Both FRC and W Bros are in Fremont, an easy Pedal from Recycled Cycles.
Ask anyone.

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[RBW] Re: Holiday Saddle question

[Daniel D.]

I think it's about price more than anything.  Berthoud saddles start at 
what ~$200?  If you saw them on sale for $99 more people would be giving 
them a try.

On Thursday, December 8, 2016 at 7:48:17 PM UTC-8, Bill in Roswell GA wrote:
>
> I find it a bit funny that we never hear about the Berthoud saddles any 
> more. I guess most folks realized that a Brooks/Rivet/SA is more 
> comfortable for most people. However, even a used Berthoud goes for not 
> much less than near new price. Would be interesting to try one as I tend to 
> like saddles a bit on the firm side. 
>
>

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[RBW] Re: RBW succession planning

[Deacon Patrick]

Indeed. That was heartening to see. I suspect it's been underway for a wee 
while. Grin.

With abandon,
Patrick

On Friday, December 9, 2016 at 9:59:38 AM UTC-7, Stephen Kemp wrote:
>
> I've wondered for a while what will happen to RBW when Grant retires. Of 
> course he'll never really retire but there must be some point when he 
> starts to hand over to the rest of the crew. The latest Blug entry on 
> ROSCOs says "ROSCO has been an opportunity for others here to learn about 
> frame design. I shouldn’t be the only one."
>
> Looks as if the process is underway!
>

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[RBW] Re: Bought a Riv

[Les Lammers]

Congrats and enjoy it! I'll be 65 in March and am building a gray Chevoit. 
My old man old age bike. I'll keep my Bleriot until I'm to old to get my 
leg over it. :-)

On Friday, December 9, 2016 at 11:43:11 AM UTC-5, Steve Butcher wrote:
>
> I've been lurking around RBWOB for quite awhile; bought and sold a few 
> things, too.  One thing I'd yet to do was actually own a Rivendell bike.  
> So, while checking out RBW frame specials what did I spy but a Rosco mixte 
> and it was my size!  Now I've been thinking about a mixte for a commuting 
> bike for awhile (especially as I age) and when my friend, Pondero, sent me 
> a link to a L-Clem on this forum, and said "old man bike?", I sent him a 
> message about the mixte and he said "Wow!" and I thought "okay, it's 
> finally time to pull the trigger".  So, with the blessings of my dear wife, 
> the check is in the mail this morning!  Next March, I turn 60 and plan to 
> have it built up by then for Spring commuting.  For now, I get to dream 
> about the details through the dark cold winter!  
>

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[RBW] Re: Bought a Riv

[Deacon Patrick]

Congratulations!

With abandon,
Patrick

On Friday, December 9, 2016 at 9:43:11 AM UTC-7, Steve Butcher wrote:
>
> I've been lurking around RBWOB for quite awhile; bought and sold a few 
> things, too.  One thing I'd yet to do was actually own a Rivendell bike.  
> So, while checking out RBW frame specials what did I spy but a Rosco mixte 
> and it was my size!  Now I've been thinking about a mixte for a commuting 
> bike for awhile (especially as I age) and when my friend, Pondero, sent me 
> a link to a L-Clem on this forum, and said "old man bike?", I sent him a 
> message about the mixte and he said "Wow!" and I thought "okay, it's 
> finally time to pull the trigger".  So, with the blessings of my dear wife, 
> the check is in the mail this morning!  Next March, I turn 60 and plan to 
> have it built up by then for Spring commuting.  For now, I get to dream 
> about the details through the dark cold winter!  
>

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[RBW] RBW succession planning

['Stephen Kemp' via RBW Owners Bunch]

I've wondered for a while what will happen to RBW when Grant retires. Of 
course he'll never really retire but there must be some point when he 
starts to hand over to the rest of the crew. The latest Blug entry on 
ROSCOs says "ROSCO has been an opportunity for others here to learn about 
frame design. I shouldn’t be the only one."

Looks as if the process is underway!

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[RBW] Re: Quality of Sugino Alpina2 cranks nowhere near that of original model Alpina

[Ryan Fleming]

The bottom model does look kind of crude, doesn't it?

On Thursday, December 8, 2016 at 12:04:50 AM UTC-6, Nick Payne wrote:
>
> I own a pair of the original model Sugino Alpina cranks, which are about 
> as nicely finished as any crank I've owned. So when I needed another set of 
> cranks I had no hesitation in ordering a set of the Sugino Alpina2 cranks, 
> thinking they would be of equivalent quality. However, when they arrived, I 
> found that the quality of the finish is nowhere near the same level. To wit:
>
> - the polishing on the new cranks is inferior
>
> - on the new cranks the grinding marks between the spider arms have not 
> been polished out as had been done on the older Alpina
>
> - on the new cranks, there is not a consistent thickness of all the spider 
> arms. In the linked photo, if you look at the spider arm nearest the crank, 
> the surface of it is about 1mm higher where it meets the chainring compared 
> to the other spider arms.
>
> - on the new cranks, the webbing where the spiders each side of the 
> crankarm meet the crank is much thinner, creating a location where a stress 
> fracture can start - on the original model, this webbing had been ground 
> back and then polished to reduce the chance of failure here. In the past 
> I've had to retire a set of Campagnolo NR and SR cranks because cracks 
> appeared at this location due to the thinness of the metal at this high 
> stress location.
>
> Original model Alpina (click on image for larger size)
>
>
> 
>
>
> New model Alpina2 (click on image for larger size)
>
>
> 
>
>
> So my suggestion would be, if you want a 110/74 crank: buy the XD instead. 
> The quality of finish is much the same and it's substantially cheaper.
>
>
>
>

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[RBW] Re: Selling an unused 55 cm Betty Foy with all the trimmings.

[Mirran Raphaely]

I posted here first, not knowing when it would show up then on Ebay, then 
two days later changed it to a BUY IT NOW on Sunday--Sorry for 
any confusion, everything is listed the same!

On Sunday, December 4, 2016 at 5:24:04 PM UTC-8, Christopher Murray wrote:
>
> The link: 
>
> http://m.ebay.com/itm/Rivendell-Betty-Foy-New-Classic-Romantic-Ladies-Basket-Step-through-/232163438626?hash=item360e04f022%3Ag%3A-nIAAOSw44BYQ1Vs&_trkparms=pageci%253A4ce39d73-ba89-11e6-b663-005056976b7c%257Cparentrq%253Acc9349551580a2ab9619952effe52be6%257Ciid%253A1
>
> Cheers!
> Chris
>

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[RBW] Bought a Riv

[Steve Butcher]

I've been lurking around RBWOB for quite awhile; bought and sold a few 
things, too.  One thing I'd yet to do was actually own a Rivendell bike.  
So, while checking out RBW frame specials what did I spy but a Rosco mixte 
and it was my size!  Now I've been thinking about a mixte for a commuting 
bike for awhile (especially as I age) and when my friend, Pondero, sent me 
a link to a L-Clem on this forum, and said "old man bike?", I sent him a 
message about the mixte and he said "Wow!" and I thought "okay, it's 
finally time to pull the trigger".  So, with the blessings of my dear wife, 
the check is in the mail this morning!  Next March, I turn 60 and plan to 
have it built up by then for Spring commuting.  For now, I get to dream 
about the details through the dark cold winter!  

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Re: [RBW] Re: Holiday Saddle question

[Les Lammers]

Here are some pics from and old post that compare the B-17 and Berthoud 
Aspin.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/flickr_lee/sets/72157625777465234/

On Friday, December 9, 2016 at 8:25:29 AM UTC-5, Steve Palincsar wrote:

>
> On 12/08/2016 10:48 PM, Bill in Roswell GA wrote: 
> > I find it a bit funny that we never hear about the Berthoud saddles 
> > any more. I guess most folks realized that a Brooks/Rivet/SA is more 
> > comfortable for most people. However, even a used Berthoud goes for 
> > not much less than near new price. Would be interesting to try one as 
> > I tend to like saddles a bit on the firm side. 
>
> Well, let's correct that.  A few years ago B.17s and Team Pro's stopped 
> working for me.  I'd tried a Berthoud Aspin and found it worked, and did 
> some unsuccessful experimentation with Rivet & SA.  I tried the Rivet 
> Pearl & Independence, and neither worked for me.  I bought a used SA 
> from a friend, tried it and found it OK for a 30 mile ride, but then 
> obtained a new one and found it bloody horrible: sharp edges at the 
> sides of the saddle really cut into my thighs.  Over the course of the 
> next three years ended up switching all six bikes to Berthoud saddles, 5 
> Aspins and one Aravis.  In many ways the Berthoud is a big improvement 
> over the Brooks design.  The leather is better - thicker and more 
> consistent, tensioning is much easier - allen key fitting rather than a 
> made-on nut requiring a special S-bend wrench, and the made-on bag 
> attachments - moulded in eyelets and a Klickfix mount - are vastly 
> superior to Brooks' metal loops (or nothing).   It takes longer to break 
> in an Aspin than a B.17 because the leather is much thicker and firmer.   
> Unlike SAs, Berthouds don't stretch much - at least, not the regular 
> unbutchered ones; I haven't tried the newly introduced slotted models. 
>
> Regarding slotted saddles: they don't always work for everyone.  On that 
> broken-in SA I never even noticed a slot was there.  Another friend 
> tried that same saddle when it was on a bike, before I bought it and was 
> inspired to buy a new one; by the time we got to the 30 mile mark on a 
> 50 mile ride she was in such pain she bought a roll of duct tape to tape 
> the slot over.  It was acting like a lobster claw, pinching her on both 
> sides of the area slots are intended to protect. 
>
> There is no panacea when it comes to saddles. 
>
>

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Re: [RBW] Where are the Brompton Owners or A Case of the Novembers

[Christopher Murray]

Another brompton owner here. And while I do t have anything of substance to add 
I wanted to post because I love it! 

Cheers! 
Chris

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Re: [RBW] Re: Holiday Saddle question

[George Schick]

"...There is no panacea when it comes to saddles..."

Amen to that.  Also, things change over time.  When I started leaning 
toward "serious cycling" back in the early 70's I road bikes that the 
saddle jacked way up higher than the handlebars. It more or less had to be 
if one wanted to stick to the popular "groupo" of the day because Cinelli 
bar stems were too short to allow for much vertical adjustment.  So the 
saddles of choice were the narrower models like the Cinelli's.  Things 
progressed that way through the mid-90's when they more or less culminated 
with the Selle Italia Flite, a particularly stiff and narrow model.  About 
the time the turn of the century when the past-50 blues started playing, I 
discovered Grant and his various bike fitting methods and recommendations. 
 Now I ride with the bars level with the saddle and have been using a B17 
ever since - far fewer aching back and neck pains after a ride.  

On Friday, December 9, 2016 at 7:25:29 AM UTC-6, Steve Palincsar wrote:
>
>
> On 12/08/2016 10:48 PM, Bill in Roswell GA wrote: 
> > I find it a bit funny that we never hear about the Berthoud saddles 
> > any more. I guess most folks realized that a Brooks/Rivet/SA is more 
> > comfortable for most people. However, even a used Berthoud goes for 
> > not much less than near new price. Would be interesting to try one as 
> > I tend to like saddles a bit on the firm side. 
>
> Well, let's correct that.  A few years ago B.17s and Team Pro's stopped 
> working for me.  I'd tried a Berthoud Aspin and found it worked, and did 
> some unsuccessful experimentation with Rivet & SA.  I tried the Rivet 
> Pearl & Independence, and neither worked for me.  I bought a used SA 
> from a friend, tried it and found it OK for a 30 mile ride, but then 
> obtained a new one and found it bloody horrible: sharp edges at the 
> sides of the saddle really cut into my thighs.  Over the course of the 
> next three years ended up switching all six bikes to Berthoud saddles, 5 
> Aspins and one Aravis.  In many ways the Berthoud is a big improvement 
> over the Brooks design.  The leather is better - thicker and more 
> consistent, tensioning is much easier - allen key fitting rather than a 
> made-on nut requiring a special S-bend wrench, and the made-on bag 
> attachments - moulded in eyelets and a Klickfix mount - are vastly 
> superior to Brooks' metal loops (or nothing).   It takes longer to break 
> in an Aspin than a B.17 because the leather is much thicker and firmer.   
> Unlike SAs, Berthouds don't stretch much - at least, not the regular 
> unbutchered ones; I haven't tried the newly introduced slotted models. 
>
> Regarding slotted saddles: they don't always work for everyone.  On that 
> broken-in SA I never even noticed a slot was there.  Another friend 
> tried that same saddle when it was on a bike, before I bought it and was 
> inspired to buy a new one; by the time we got to the 30 mile mark on a 
> 50 mile ride she was in such pain she bought a roll of duct tape to tape 
> the slot over.  It was acting like a lobster claw, pinching her on both 
> sides of the area slots are intended to protect. 
>
> There is no panacea when it comes to saddles. 
>
>

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Re: [RBW] Bike shop

[Eric Norris]

Recycled Cycles is a great shop that sells both new stuff and (per the name) 
used parts. You can find almost anything there.

--Eric N
www.CampyOnly.com
CampyOnlyGuy.blogspot.com
Twitter: @CampyOnlyGuy

> On Dec 9, 2016, at 5:07 AM, Bruce Baker  wrote:
> 
> Hey Everybody,
> I'm going to be in Seattle in January and wanted to know if anyone could 
> recommend a rivish type shop?? Thanks
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[RBW] WTB: Brooks Cambium C17 Carved

[Justin Schoop]

Subject says it all, don't really care about the color. I'd prefer one that 
hasn't been used too much. Thanks!

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[RBW] Re: Albastache on what frame?

[Bob K.]

I put an Albastache bar on my Sam after a long run with Moustache and a shorter 
one with Albatross. I've never ridden drops on a regular basis, so I can't 
comment on how the Albastache compares to them, but I can say that it is a 
perfect balance for me between aggressive and laid-back riding. I feel like I 
can mash at the drop of a hat, but also my position is upright enough that I'm 
not uncomfortable for just tooling around. Not sure if any of this actually 
gets to the bottom of your query, but it's my two cents. Sounds like you've got 
a starting point with your Redwood.

Bob K. in Baltimore

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[RBW] Sticky Pletscher Twin Legged Kickstand

[Keith Muller]

>From my experience, the pletscher double kickstand accumulates dirt and debri 
>in the pivot/knuckle from day to day use.  After a while I found mine to be 
>doing the same thing.  My fix involved using degreaser to clean all the junk 
>out, then I used a little Bosheild T9 to lubricate the pivot.  Worked like new 
>after I did that.

Keith

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Re: [RBW] Re: Off topic-cold/wet boot recommendations

[Deacon Patrick]

Ha! I get funny looks all the time, but there are so many factors I 
couldn't narrow it down to one! Grin.

With abandon,
Patrick

On Friday, December 9, 2016 at 6:57:47 AM UTC-7, Tony DeFilippo wrote:
>
> I get funny looks riding in my Sorel's here in DC 

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[RBW] Sticky Pletscher Twin Legged Kickstand

[Edwin W]

My kickstand seems to be losing it's "snap" when going up or down. Anyone 
had this? Oil? Grease? Where exactly?

It is not just the cold, but it is chilly here, for Nashville!

Edwin

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[RBW] Re: FS: Clem Smith L 52

[twowheeledtexan]

Open to offers! Would like to sell before my holiday travels.

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Re: [RBW] Re: Off topic-cold/wet boot recommendations

[Tony DeFilippo]

I get funny looks riding in my Sorel's here in DC but in that zone Patrick 
mentions it's the best setup I've used. They are a bit clunky especially as 
mine are a bit larger for my feet but for commuting distances it's not a 
problem and warm dry feet more than balance the problem!  I find that mine dry 
out over the course of the work day of I pull out the liner's a bit.  Oh and +1 
on the bean shearling insoles, they are magic!

Good luck with yours!

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Re: [RBW] Re: Holiday Saddle question

[Steve Palincsar]

On 12/08/2016 10:48 PM, Bill in Roswell GA wrote:
I find it a bit funny that we never hear about the Berthoud saddles 
any more. I guess most folks realized that a Brooks/Rivet/SA is more 
comfortable for most people. However, even a used Berthoud goes for 
not much less than near new price. Would be interesting to try one as 
I tend to like saddles a bit on the firm side.


Well, let's correct that.  A few years ago B.17s and Team Pro's stopped 
working for me.  I'd tried a Berthoud Aspin and found it worked, and did 
some unsuccessful experimentation with Rivet & SA.  I tried the Rivet 
Pearl & Independence, and neither worked for me.  I bought a used SA 
from a friend, tried it and found it OK for a 30 mile ride, but then 
obtained a new one and found it bloody horrible: sharp edges at the 
sides of the saddle really cut into my thighs.  Over the course of the 
next three years ended up switching all six bikes to Berthoud saddles, 5 
Aspins and one Aravis.  In many ways the Berthoud is a big improvement 
over the Brooks design.  The leather is better - thicker and more 
consistent, tensioning is much easier - allen key fitting rather than a 
made-on nut requiring a special S-bend wrench, and the made-on bag 
attachments - moulded in eyelets and a Klickfix mount - are vastly 
superior to Brooks' metal loops (or nothing).   It takes longer to break 
in an Aspin than a B.17 because the leather is much thicker and firmer.  
Unlike SAs, Berthouds don't stretch much - at least, not the regular 
unbutchered ones; I haven't tried the newly introduced slotted models.


Regarding slotted saddles: they don't always work for everyone.  On that 
broken-in SA I never even noticed a slot was there.  Another friend 
tried that same saddle when it was on a bike, before I bought it and was 
inspired to buy a new one; by the time we got to the 30 mile mark on a 
50 mile ride she was in such pain she bought a roll of duct tape to tape 
the slot over.  It was acting like a lobster claw, pinching her on both 
sides of the area slots are intended to protect.


There is no panacea when it comes to saddles.

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[RBW] Bike shop

[Bruce Baker]

Hey Everybody,
I'm going to be in Seattle in January and wanted to know if anyone could
recommend a rivish type shop?? Thanks

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[RBW] Re: Holiday Saddle question

[Ron Mc]

we just did - good job... I think Berthoud are fine saddles, and it's all 
my buddy rides.  I've never sprung for one, so couldn't give a review.  

On Thursday, December 8, 2016 at 9:48:17 PM UTC-6, Bill in Roswell GA wrote:
>
> I find it a bit funny that we never hear about the Berthoud saddles any 
> more. I guess most folks realized that a Brooks/Rivet/SA is more 
> comfortable for most people. However, even a used Berthoud goes for not 
> much less than near new price. Would be interesting to try one as I tend to 
> like saddles a bit on the firm side. 
>
> Years ago, I found a 1978 B17 on ebay for $32. I really wanted to try one 
> out without the break-in period. It was like putting on an old pair of 
> bluejeans. Being of thicker leather that Brooks used back then, it is still 
> going strong (it's on my coffee shop bike, ridden 3-5 miles a few times a 
> week in nice weather - never rain!). 
>
> Hope to get a C17 soon as I can find one on sale or have a coupon. 
>
> Cheers,
> Bill in Roswell, GA
>
>

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[RBW] Re: Holiday Saddle question

[Chris Birkenmaier]

I have a Berthoud Mente on my Seven Cafe  Racer and I like it just fine. It is 
thick leather but broke in nicely within a reasonable amount of time. That 
said, I am thinking of swapping it out for one of my B17 Select spares I have. 
Not much on the web about them and I agree they seem to be a lower profile 
option

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