[RBW] Re: I made an Instagram for stuff I'm selling.

[Meade Anderson]

Adam trying to contact you...thanks 
Meade

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[RBW] Clem H with drop bars?

[Christopher Murray]

Has anyone out there tried a Clem with drop bars? I know the TT is long but 
wonder if a shorter stem could make it work. I'd be a 52cm and I think the top 
tube is 61cm so it would be a very, very short stem. 

Thanks,
Chris

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[RBW] FS: 26" dyno wheelset, brooks cambium natrual, nitto big back medium

[dstein]

Dyno Wheelset - 26” Atlas rim with Rivendell Silver rear hub and SP SV-9 
Dyno hub (36 rear, 32 front), db spokes - $350
Brooks Cambium Saddle Natural- $110 (like new - cambium natural, maybe 50 
miles)
Nitto Big Back Rack (rear) - Medium 32R - $150

Plus actual shipping charges (and pending time for me to get boxes for each 
item) or local pickup in Oakland, CA

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[RBW] Re: I made an Instagram for stuff I'm selling.

[Ian A]

650brivbob should be embroidered on the Woolistic jersey group buy. It's a 
good word.

IanA

On Thursday, July 27, 2017 at 10:49:44 AM UTC-6, Hugh Smitham wrote:
>
> Good idea. #650brivbob works, to the point and minimal letters & numbers.
>
> ~hugh
>
> On Wednesday, July 26, 2017 at 8:52:13 AM UTC-7, adam leibow wrote:
>>
>> I don't know why I didn't think of this sooner, because I use instagram a 
>> lot, and sell alotta bike stuff. I post across several forums/google groups 
>> and find that sometimes I just want to see who, of my friends, would be 
>> interested in something I'm selling, so I encouraged my normal instagram 
>> followers to follow my selling account. 
>>
>> If you like instagram, I recommend this idea as it can be fun to have an 
>> inventory all in one place, or just follow me if you want to see what I 
>> have! I am hoping it encourages me to sell more; i've been a bit of a bike 
>> parts hoarder and could use some liquidation. 
>>
>> @adom_sale 
>>
>> https://www.instagram.com/adom_sale/
>>
>> I'm hoping the relevance of this post will be found in the content of 
>> what I'm selling; it's not all rivendell related, but some or a lot of it 
>> should be. 
>>
>> thanks, !
>>
>> adam
>>
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Grant Petersen Interview up on the Gravel & Grind website

[Patrick Moore]

On Fri, Jul 28, 2017 at 5:52 PM, 'Chris Lampe 2' via RBW Owners Bunch <
rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com> wrote:
[Snippo]:  I have to have my body at a certain angle that allows my core
muscles to best support my weight, instead of my hands.

I find this to be very true.

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Re: [RBW] Re: Grant Petersen Interview up on the Gravel & Grind website

['Chris Lampe 2' via RBW Owners Bunch]

At one time I was also guilty of putting my seat way forward but I tried it 
Grant's way and now I always push it all the way back.   I haven't yet been 
able to make closer handlebars work.  I always ran them that way and I 
always had issues with hand numbness and pain.  It was only thru an 
impulsive trial-and-error adjustment that I discovered further away 
handlebars were far, far more comfortable.  Someone here mentioned back 
angle and I think that's what it boils down to for me to be comfortable.  I 
have to have my body at a certain angle that allows my core muscles to best 
support my weight, instead of my hands.  I found that a 60cm ETT with a 
long'ish (110mm) stem gets me in a good position.  Like you, I've found 
that very small adjustments make a large difference in both comfort and 
handling.



On Friday, July 28, 2017 at 5:23:38 PM UTC-5, Patrick Moore wrote:
>
> Chris and Mitch: Thanks; at least plausible explanations. As I said 
> elsewhere, in experimenting with setting up the bar for the Matthews over 
> the last year, I've gradually lowered the bar by a total of about 2 inches, 
> and extended the stem by 1 cm. (The last 9 mm reduction in height was by 
> swapping out the 9 cm 90* stem for a 9 cm 6* stem flipped negative; this 
> because I'd earlier removed the last spacer from above the headset. And 
> flipping the 6* stem downward extends the bar forward by 2 more mm, in 
> addition to reducing its height.)
>
> Long windup as usual. Let us proceed: Compared to my Benchmark Riv Roads, 
> the Matthews feels vague in that crucial transition from straight to turn, 
> at lower speeds on pavement. It still felt this way even as I lowered the 
> bar. But this last reduction seems to have pushed a handling button; the 
> last 9 mm seems to have made more difference in this turn-in than the 
> previous 3 cm. At any rate, this lowering made the hoods feel more natural, 
> keeps the hooks very usable, and (hoods position) seems at least to make 
> turn-in feel a bit more planted.
>
> Of course, with such variables as tires -- width, pressure, tread -- who 
> can possibly parse all the element affecting all the other variables in my 
> peculiar body relationship with this particular bike; but --- again, very 
> longwinded windup: I can well believe that more weight over bar leads to a 
> better "planted" feel in "turn-in."
>
> 'Nother anecdote, not wholly unrelated to all this: my first highish end 
> road bike, 1990, was a '89 Falcon, 531 C, all Sante, which had a design 
> that I read was a trend in the '70s or so: very short front-center (very 
> little daylight between 19 mm Turbo and bottom of down tube), and long 
> stays. I messed up the handling by setting up the saddle and bar all wrong: 
> saddle so high I needed mtb seatpost; saddle all, and I mean all, the way 
> forward on the rails, so much so that I needed blue Loctite to keep it from 
> tilting *forward* under my then svelte weight; 135 or 140 mm stem full 6 
> inches below saddle -- you had to experience fast, swoopy downhills with 
> gusty sidewinds! 
>
> But I expect that this design would have handled delightfully with a 
> Grantian setup: he told me, get your bar up and back, and your saddle back 
> and down, and it worked for other bikes. But I'd sold the Falcon.
>

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[RBW] Re: Rambling Interview with Grant: Trail, Women's bikes, Low gearing, Current Reading, Etc

['Eamon Nordquist' via RBW Owners Bunch]

That was kind of my point. A well designed bike can made across a spectrum 
of parameters, and a good designer designs for particular ride qualities. 
Grant obviously has a signature feel to his bikes, and a certain amount of 
trail is a part of that. Great bikes can obviously be made with high, 
medium, and low trail figures (for example), but Grant should feel no 
pressure to abandon what he does just because there is another way 
currently in vogue.

On Thursday, July 27, 2017 at 7:54:56 PM UTC-7, Joe Bernard wrote:
>
> There may be a lot of different ways, but I've owned/ridden a lot of 
> bikes, including 5 or 6 Rivendells, and there's something different/special 
> about Riv handling. Smooth, stable, yet still quick to turn..I don't know 
> how Grant does it, but it works. 

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Re: [RBW] Re: Grant Petersen Interview up on the Gravel & Grind website

[Patrick Moore]

Chris and Mitch: Thanks; at least plausible explanations. As I said
elsewhere, in experimenting with setting up the bar for the Matthews over
the last year, I've gradually lowered the bar by a total of about 2 inches,
and extended the stem by 1 cm. (The last 9 mm reduction in height was by
swapping out the 9 cm 90* stem for a 9 cm 6* stem flipped negative; this
because I'd earlier removed the last spacer from above the headset. And
flipping the 6* stem downward extends the bar forward by 2 more mm, in
addition to reducing its height.)

Long windup as usual. Let us proceed: Compared to my Benchmark Riv Roads,
the Matthews feels vague in that crucial transition from straight to turn,
at lower speeds on pavement. It still felt this way even as I lowered the
bar. But this last reduction seems to have pushed a handling button; the
last 9 mm seems to have made more difference in this turn-in than the
previous 3 cm. At any rate, this lowering made the hoods feel more natural,
keeps the hooks very usable, and (hoods position) seems at least to make
turn-in feel a bit more planted.

Of course, with such variables as tires -- width, pressure, tread -- who
can possibly parse all the element affecting all the other variables in my
peculiar body relationship with this particular bike; but --- again, very
longwinded windup: I can well believe that more weight over bar leads to a
better "planted" feel in "turn-in."

'Nother anecdote, not wholly unrelated to all this: my first highish end
road bike, 1990, was a '89 Falcon, 531 C, all Sante, which had a design
that I read was a trend in the '70s or so: very short front-center (very
little daylight between 19 mm Turbo and bottom of down tube), and long
stays. I messed up the handling by setting up the saddle and bar all wrong:
saddle so high I needed mtb seatpost; saddle all, and I mean all, the way
forward on the rails, so much so that I needed blue Loctite to keep it from
tilting *forward* under my then svelte weight; 135 or 140 mm stem full 6
inches below saddle -- you had to experience fast, swoopy downhills with
gusty sidewinds!

But I expect that this design would have handled delightfully with a
Grantian setup: he told me, get your bar up and back, and your saddle back
and down, and it worked for other bikes. But I'd sold the Falcon.

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[RBW] Re: Ride report / 1st tour on my Cheviot

[WETH]

Dear Bob,
Thanks for your thoughts. In my opinion, the GAP (Pittsburg to Cumberland) is a 
nicer trail than the C (Cumberland to D.C.) for the type of tour my friend 
and I undertook.  The towns are spaced a reasonable distance apart (10-20 
miles) with indoor lodging options, the trail goes through the towns or within 
easy access to them, and the trail is extremely well maintained.  The C 
passes through beautiful scenery, but the trail tends to be more rough, and 
many towns are up steep grades from the tow path (Williamsport, Shepherdstown) 
or up a staircase (Harpers Ferry).  If one were camping, than both trails are 
pretty equal, with perhaps a nod to the C hiker/biker campsites.  But for 
shorter days and indoor lodging, the GAP would be my recommendation.  Of 
course, I highly encourage everyone to ride both.  
All the best,
Erl

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Re: [RBW] Re: Grant Petersen Interview up on the Gravel & Grind website

[Jay Connolly]

Yeah, it's probably meaningless. Maybe it's just that my own bike balance has 
improved over the years.

Jay

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Re: [RBW] Re: Grant Petersen Interview up on the Gravel & Grind website

[Tim Butterfield]

I'm not sure that test is valid.  I am unable to ride my AHH for more than
a few seconds without my hands on the bars.  But, I suspect that is more me
being unbalanced than the bike.

Tim

On Fri, Jul 28, 2017 at 12:59 PM, Brewster Fong  wrote:

>
>
> On Friday, July 28, 2017 at 12:16:47 PM UTC-7, Jay Connolly wrote:
>>
>> I was intrigued by this number, as well. I heard an interview with Grant
>> somewhere in which he expressed reluctance to excite the hostile, loveless
>> bike-frame geometers of the interwebs, and I don't blame him. I've owned 15
>> or more steel bikes in the last 20 years, and only on the Rivs have I been
>> able, effortlessly, to ride no hands. I take that as a sign of balance and
>> stability in the bike. I could do it briefly on various other frames, but
>> nothing like the Rivs. Maybe it's meaningless, but I find it both useful
>> and pleasant on long rides.
>
>
> That's interesting.  Is riding no handed "the test" to show that a bike is
> balanced and stabled?  I bought all of my bikes used and have been able to
> ride no handed on each of them - 90s Calfee tetra, 90s Litespeed Classic
> and my newest bike - 2013 Trek Madone. I run 700x25 tires@80psi on all of
> them.  The Trek has the shortest wheelbase and it took some time to get use
> to the handling as it is quicker than the other two bikes. Otherwise, it is
> fine.
>
> Good to know that my bikes are all balance and stable!
>
> Good Luck!
>

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[RBW] Re: Possibly FS: 1986 Pinnarello Montello

[Davey Two Shoes]

TT is 545
$1200 

On Friday, July 28, 2017 at 4:12:34 PM UTC-4, Singlespeed Johnny wrote:
>
> size? price?

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[RBW] Re: Ride report / 1st tour on my Cheviot

[Howard in Northern VA]

The Cheviot looks sooo comfortable. Thanks for sharing.

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[RBW] Possibly FS: 1986 Pinnarello Montello

[Singlespeed Johnny]

size? price?

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[RBW] Re: Ride report / 1st tour on my Cheviot

[Bob Ehrenbeck]

Awesome trip, Erl! And, thanks for the report and pics. I've read a lot 
about tours of the entire Pittsburgh-DC route, so it's good to be reminded 
that a great time can be had doing sections. Is the Pittsburgh-Cumberland 
the most scenic portion, or is that the best from a logistics point of view?

Bob E.

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Re: [RBW] Re: Grant Petersen Interview up on the Gravel & Grind website

[Brewster Fong]

On Friday, July 28, 2017 at 12:16:47 PM UTC-7, Jay Connolly wrote:
>
> I was intrigued by this number, as well. I heard an interview with Grant 
> somewhere in which he expressed reluctance to excite the hostile, loveless 
> bike-frame geometers of the interwebs, and I don't blame him. I've owned 15 
> or more steel bikes in the last 20 years, and only on the Rivs have I been 
> able, effortlessly, to ride no hands. I take that as a sign of balance and 
> stability in the bike. I could do it briefly on various other frames, but 
> nothing like the Rivs. Maybe it's meaningless, but I find it both useful 
> and pleasant on long rides.


That's interesting.  Is riding no handed "the test" to show that a bike is 
balanced and stabled?  I bought all of my bikes used and have been able to 
ride no handed on each of them - 90s Calfee tetra, 90s Litespeed Classic 
and my newest bike - 2013 Trek Madone. I run 700x25 tires@80psi on all of 
them.  The Trek has the shortest wheelbase and it took some time to get use 
to the handling as it is quicker than the other two bikes. Otherwise, it is 
fine.

Good to know that my bikes are all balance and stable!

Good Luck!  

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[RBW] Re: D2R2 2017

[Bob Ehrenbeck]

This year's D2R2 will be the my first. And as an added bonus, my bike 
(650Bx42 Rawland) and I will get there from NJ via Amtrak's Vermonter train.

Being unfamiliar with the terrain (I've heard about how really challenging 
some of the longer courses are) I'm sticking to the 40-mile Green River 
route for the first go round.

Bob E.

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Re: [RBW] Re: Grant Petersen Interview up on the Gravel & Grind website

[Jay Connolly]

I was intrigued by this number, as well. I heard an interview with Grant 
somewhere in which he expressed reluctance to excite the hostile, loveless 
bike-frame geometers of the interwebs, and I don't blame him. I've owned 15 or 
more steel bikes in the last 20 years, and only on the Rivs have I been able, 
effortlessly, to ride no hands. I take that as a sign of balance and stability 
in the bike. I could do it briefly on various other frames, but nothing like 
the Rivs. Maybe it's meaningless, but I find it both useful and pleasant on 
long rides.

Jay

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[RBW] Re: Atlantis Bars: Drop or Moustache?

[RichS]

Reiterating what others have said about your Atlantis. It's a beauty! Nicely 
thought out details. 

Some food for thought: I recently converted the bars on my Atlantis from drops 
to Albatross. Gives me enough options to reposition my wandering hands and have 
my 65+ year old torso at 45 degrees to more upright. So far so good after 100 
or so miles.

My Sam still has drops and will likely keep them so if I want that experience I 
can go there.

Best regards,
Richard

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[RBW] Possibly FS: 1986 Pinnarello Montello

[Davey Two Shoes]

I know, I know, we don't do race bikes.
I can no longer deny that my Pin Pin which I bought last year is just a 
little too small.
Anyone interested? Lets talk.

Thanks

[img]http://i.imgur.com/kvbS9UH.jpg[/img]

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[RBW] Re: OK to keep riding on this wheel, right?

[Bill Lindsay]

Given that history, that gets you into the very grey area of 'standing 
behind one's product'.  I agree it shouldn't have broken, but it's hard to 
define exactly what White Industries' financial obligation is to owner #2 
and beyond.  

White Industries does sell replacement hub shells.  New shell, new bearings 
would get you to a practically as-new hub, for a lot less money than a new 
one, but a lot more money than $0.  Plus if you have to pay somebody to 
build you a new wheel, it's even more.  If it were me, that's probably what 
I would do, and if I was doing that, I'd pay Mike Varley at Black Mountain 
to do it, because of his expertise with White Industries stuff.  

If you don't want to deal with all that hassle, don't throw it out. 
 Consider selling your broken hub, because some mechanic on this group 
might want to make a nice "new" hub on the cheap.  

On Friday, July 28, 2017 at 10:58:37 AM UTC-7, John Stowe wrote:
>
> Filling in from a couple of people's questions:
>
> I bought the wheel used off this list, so I don't have a retailer to go 
> to, but it came to me with the original rim (Dyad) which had very little 
> wear, and was clearly well-built because I never had to touch it until the 
> brake track was worn out. It was replaced with the spokes in the same 
> orientation. Spoke tension near, but certainly not over, Velocity's 
> recommended max. I rode it for about 5,600 miles before this happened, so I 
> doubt it had 8,000 total given the condition when I got it. Nobody manages 
> to avoid every single impact from a surprise pothole or whatever, but I 
> don't ride it on technical singletrack or jump off curbs - and even then I 
> would expect a broken spoke or dented rim before the hub flange goes.
>
> -John
>
> On Friday, July 28, 2017 at 1:37:31 PM UTC-4, Philip Williamson wrote:
>>
>> I'm also in the "36 holes is already overkill" camp. I'm 230 lbs. 
>> On the other hand, I did just build up two used King hubs and reversed 
>> the spoke angles from the previous build, and I don't expect them to fail, 
>> either. 
>>
>> Philip
>> www.biketinker.com 
>>
>> On Thursday, July 27, 2017 at 4:46:03 PM UTC-7, Bill Lindsay wrote:
>>>
>>> Two people recommended a higher spoke count.  
>>>
>>> I'll respectfully disagree with that advice.  One might be in better 
>>> shape going to a higher spoke count if they are breaking spokes.  That 
>>> failed hub flange broke between two spoke holes.  If you go to a higher 
>>> spoke count, that little chunk of material between any two spokes gets even 
>>> smaller and even weaker.  It is true that a good experienced wheelbuilder 
>>> has a rule of thumb for spoke tension that they adjust as a function of 
>>> number of spokes.  Low spoke count wheels need higher tension and higher 
>>> spoke count wheels do not need as high a tension.  Even with that, I don't 
>>> see a clear hypothesis that the OP caused the broken hub by using too few 
>>> spokes.  I'd be more apt to argue the opposite.  32 spokes is plenty with 
>>> modern rims, and the hub flanges would be stronger with only 16 holes 
>>> drilled in each flange.  36 spokes is plenty for any normal single person 
>>> bike application. 
>>>
>>> Bill Lindsay
>>> El Cerrito, CA
>>>
>>> On Thursday, July 27, 2017 at 3:03:14 PM UTC-7, Ryan Fleming wrote:

 I would press White a little more but maybe a higher spoke count is the 
 way to go

 Of course I'm assuming you  sent White the photo and told them how long 
 you had the wheel and what kind of load you're carrying as you told 
 us...and note that kiddies in trailers tend to get heavier...I hauled my 
 son around a lot in a trailer but not touring as you did. At any rate, I'm 
 glad you found a reasonable replacement and carried on and had a great 
 tour 
  in spite of this, and no one was hurt

 Anyway, I hope the story has a satisfactory ending

 One of the hallmarks of a  great  company is that they stand behind 
 their product. White hubs are pretty and  pretty spendy

 Please let us know what happens.

 On Thursday, July 27, 2017 at 4:42:57 PM UTC-5, lconley wrote:
>
> I would go to 40 or 48 spokes for the next wheel. Why fool around 
> trying to save a few grams on spokes. Replacing a wheel on tour is not 
> worth it. Kind of like only carrying one water bottle to save weight in 
> my 
> mind. 



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[RBW] Re: Rambling Interview with Grant: Trail, Women's bikes, Low gearing, Current Reading, Etc

[iamkeith]

Between these two threads, i think the group might be zeroing in on what grant 
is talking about, but i'm guessing that distribution of weight to the 
handlebars is the bigger issue, and that front center measurement is only one 
part of that equation... and that it is too simplistic to be the main part.  
Elsewhere in the interview, he said the clem would be his favorite bike if it 
had more lugs - and those are so long that tco isn't remotely an issue.  
Perhaps there is some ideal/target torso lean angle that each bike is designed 
around, that provides the handlebar weighting that riv is after?  That would 
explain why a bike intended for reach-back bars could have a longer top tube / 
front center than one intended to use drops or moustache bars.  That's also an 
argument that would be likely to bring out the mean, 
entrenched-in-their-beliefs, mathmeticians in an argument.

I also want to go back and read that 'how to design a frame' article.  Good 
idea...

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[RBW] Re: Rambling Interview with Grant: Trail, Women's bikes, Low gearing, Current Reading, Etc

[Philip Williamson]

I think the X-Sauce is front-center, too.
Grant has written several times about how you can't eliminate TCO on bikes 
without affecting the handling. Basically, if you want the Riv ride, you 
will have TCO in some size/tire/fender/feet situations. If you can't handle 
TCO, you can't have the Riv ride. It would be instructive to go back to the 
"let's design a bike frame" exercise he put up as PDFs several years ago. 

Philip
www.biketinker.com

On Wednesday, July 26, 2017 at 5:15:02 PM UTC-7, Bill Lindsay wrote:
>
> Patrick asked what parameter GP was referring to, over trail:  
>
> I suspect Grant may be referring to front center.  I don't know for sure. 
>  It's just a guess
>
> Patrick, how did you position your saddle on the rails of your Hillborne? 
>  Your Hillborne had a far slacker seat tube angle than any of your customs, 
> so I assume you slid your saddle much farther forward (about an inch by my 
> calculations) to make them equivalent.  Is that what you did?  
>
> Bill Lindsay
> El Cerrito CA
>
> On Wednesday, July 26, 2017 at 4:23:22 PM UTC-7, Patrick Moore wrote:
>>
>> A very good interview, with some real words of bicycle-design-wisdom from 
>> Grant; and yes, thanks for posting this.
>>
>> Y'know, Grant has always been, as far as I've ever been able to read him, 
>> a contrarian, and I really like that. But my likes aside, this contrarian 
>> streak has resulted in wonderful bikes precisely because he bucks trends, 
>> as in the "woman specific" design and "need to clear 2' obstacle" idea. 
>> *And* I've often thought that Mt. Diablo influenced Rivendell bike 
>> design.
>>
>> (I do think Grant downplays top tube length too much; I'm not the only 
>> one who has sold a Riv because the tt was just to damned long. Sometimes 
>> you like to have your bar in a particular spot with respect to the saddle, 
>> and playing with bar height then does not serve to compensate for a less 
>> than ideal top tube length. But I gather that Grant has cut tt length on 
>> some Sams. But he's right that you can't look at tt length in isolation 
>> from multiple other variables.)
>>
>> "I’m pretty happy with the way Rivendell has shaped up and gone." I 
>> recall a long ago statement in another interview where G said, "We are 
>> product driven, not market driven."Because of this, and because, simply, I 
>> liked Riv bikes, I wrote a paper on Rivendell for my MBA marketing class 
>> citing Riv as an honorable commercial enterprise in the face of (I recall 
>> this bullshit from the time: HP talking about "*perceptions* of value": 
>> don't give me perceptions, give me value!) And the paper was a good one, 
>> though the marketing classes were largely useless. But I believe that it is 
>> precisely this product integrity that has made Rivendell, whose chances of 
>> success in this horrible, shark-like world of competitive commerce were 
>> minimal, in fact succeed and, more, modestly prosper -- and this while 
>> paying honest wages and benefits to builders and shop staff.
>>
>> And nice words on trail! But what is this pointing to?
>>
>>  Also, there’s another steering/bike handling parameter that probably 
>> matters more, although it’s far less well-known than trail is. Everybody at 
>> Rivendell knows what it is, we have a name for it, and all of our bikes are 
>> designed with it in mind. That’s true whether it’s me designing a new 
>> model, or Will or Roman or Mark working on a limited-run Rosco Bubbe. 
>> Everybody here knows, but I’m not going to say what it is, because it’s 
>> another can of worms, and it’ll attract the meanest mathematicians and 
>> physicists on the internet. Why do that?
>>
>>
>>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Grant Petersen Interview up on the Gravel & Grind website

['Chris Lampe 2' via RBW Owners Bunch]

That's a nice explanation that is more specific than my general thoughts 
along those lines.  

I have a 1984 Trek 830 ATB that handles like a dream and it has long 
chainstays, a low bb and what I consider a short F-C (580mm ett).  I found 
that  to get comfortable on the bike, I needed a low angle (7 degree, I 
think) 120mm stem but that threw the handling all off and I didn't even 
like riding the bike.  I switched to a higher angle, 110mm stem and it 
handles like a dream but I'm not comfortable due to the shortened distance 
to the handlebars.  

OTOH, my Karate Monkey has a 600mm ETT and with a 17 degree, 100mm stem, 
it's quite comfortable but the steering isn't very intuitive.  I switched 
to a very high angle, 110mm stem (equivalent to a 7 degree, 85mm stem) and 
it now handles like a dream but is slightly less comfortable than it was, 
again, due to a shortened distance to the handlebars.  

Overall, both bikes are dialed in on the handling and both are less 
comfortable than they could be, but the KM is the better compromise between 
the two so I ride it more often.  Both bikes are set up so that the 
handlebar obscures the front hub.  I don't know if that's just a 
coincidence, or if there really is something to that almost universal 
recommendation. 
On Friday, July 28, 2017 at 12:36:49 PM UTC-5, Mitch Harris wrote:
>
>
>
> On Friday, July 28, 2017 at 10:51:12 AM UTC-6, Patrick Moore wrote:
>>
>> I'd be *very* interested to learn more about this, and how it relates to 
>> f-c, trail, hta, tires, and so forth. Anyone?
>>
>
>
> Keeping the right balance of weight on the front wheel helps with that 
> nice turn-in you describe. It can be a challenge with any bike intended for 
> fendered use by people who don't like toe overlap, where designers are 
> trying to maximize front-center to keep toes out of fenders. That can be 
> mitigated a little in a low trail bike because an extra 20mm fork offset 
> puts the wheel further away. But in general low trail designs have longer 
> front-center than some, if only because of more fork offset. Mtbs 
> got elongated front-centers for endo-prevention from the late 90s 
> on--Fischer called it Genesis Geometry. Plus there's been a decades long 
> trend of preference for short chainstays. All this tends to take weight off 
> the front wheel (in the last instance of mtbs that was intended). Add to 
> that the front-end-lightening general trend for high handlebars in the RBW, 
> 600B, iBob world, and you can lose that nice front-weighted turn-in feel. 
> Long chainstays move weight back forward to the front end, all else equal, 
> and you see that in Riv models. Perhaps Grant has found a way to make a 
> bike intended for high bars, fenders, and no toe-overlap that nevertheless 
> keeps weight on the front wheel (by balancing a short as possible 
> front-center with long chainstays and low bb) for that planted feel 
> with responsive turn initiation. 
>
> --Mitch 
>
>
> (non-Riv) low trail designs because extra fork offset can put the wheel 
> 20mm further out there (a lot). 
>

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[RBW] Re: OK to keep riding on this wheel, right?

[John Stowe]

Filling in from a couple of people's questions:

I bought the wheel used off this list, so I don't have a retailer to go to, 
but it came to me with the original rim (Dyad) which had very little wear, 
and was clearly well-built because I never had to touch it until the brake 
track was worn out. It was replaced with the spokes in the same 
orientation. Spoke tension near, but certainly not over, Velocity's 
recommended max. I rode it for about 5,600 miles before this happened, so I 
doubt it had 8,000 total given the condition when I got it. Nobody manages 
to avoid every single impact from a surprise pothole or whatever, but I 
don't ride it on technical singletrack or jump off curbs - and even then I 
would expect a broken spoke or dented rim before the hub flange goes.

-John

On Friday, July 28, 2017 at 1:37:31 PM UTC-4, Philip Williamson wrote:
>
> I'm also in the "36 holes is already overkill" camp. I'm 230 lbs. 
> On the other hand, I did just build up two used King hubs and reversed the 
> spoke angles from the previous build, and I don't expect them to fail, 
> either. 
>
> Philip
> www.biketinker.com 
>
> On Thursday, July 27, 2017 at 4:46:03 PM UTC-7, Bill Lindsay wrote:
>>
>> Two people recommended a higher spoke count.  
>>
>> I'll respectfully disagree with that advice.  One might be in better 
>> shape going to a higher spoke count if they are breaking spokes.  That 
>> failed hub flange broke between two spoke holes.  If you go to a higher 
>> spoke count, that little chunk of material between any two spokes gets even 
>> smaller and even weaker.  It is true that a good experienced wheelbuilder 
>> has a rule of thumb for spoke tension that they adjust as a function of 
>> number of spokes.  Low spoke count wheels need higher tension and higher 
>> spoke count wheels do not need as high a tension.  Even with that, I don't 
>> see a clear hypothesis that the OP caused the broken hub by using too few 
>> spokes.  I'd be more apt to argue the opposite.  32 spokes is plenty with 
>> modern rims, and the hub flanges would be stronger with only 16 holes 
>> drilled in each flange.  36 spokes is plenty for any normal single person 
>> bike application. 
>>
>> Bill Lindsay
>> El Cerrito, CA
>>
>> On Thursday, July 27, 2017 at 3:03:14 PM UTC-7, Ryan Fleming wrote:
>>>
>>> I would press White a little more but maybe a higher spoke count is the 
>>> way to go
>>>
>>> Of course I'm assuming you  sent White the photo and told them how long 
>>> you had the wheel and what kind of load you're carrying as you told 
>>> us...and note that kiddies in trailers tend to get heavier...I hauled my 
>>> son around a lot in a trailer but not touring as you did. At any rate, I'm 
>>> glad you found a reasonable replacement and carried on and had a great tour 
>>>  in spite of this, and no one was hurt
>>>
>>> Anyway, I hope the story has a satisfactory ending
>>>
>>> One of the hallmarks of a  great  company is that they stand behind 
>>> their product. White hubs are pretty and  pretty spendy
>>>
>>> Please let us know what happens.
>>>
>>> On Thursday, July 27, 2017 at 4:42:57 PM UTC-5, lconley wrote:

 I would go to 40 or 48 spokes for the next wheel. Why fool around 
 trying to save a few grams on spokes. Replacing a wheel on tour is not 
 worth it. Kind of like only carrying one water bottle to save weight in my 
 mind. 
>>>
>>>

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[RBW] Re: Atlantis Bars: Drop or Moustache?

[Philip Williamson]

The fender spacers make me really happy. Great idea, great execution, and 
just a beautiful hidden detail. 
I wouldn't change the bars, either. I have moustache bars on two bikes, 
both with slightly short top tubes (58cm) for my height. Hard to retrofit a 
new top tube on an Atlantis! I like them, and use the ends quite a bit for 
leverage and for cruising. I used to use the hoods a lot, but I think I'm 
just way slower now than I was 10 years ago... 

Philip
www.biketinker.com

On Friday, July 28, 2017 at 5:22:25 AM UTC-7, ADH wrote:
>
> Thanks to everyone for the kind comments about my bike. I spent a LOT of 
> time looking at everyone else's Rivendells trying to figure out what I 
> wanted to do. So it's really an amalgamation of everyone else's ideas. 
> Except for the fender spacers. They were my idea. If anyone is interested 
> in trying something like that, I gave a pretty detailed explanation of what 
> I did in the Flickr comments. The key was having a stainless threaded bolt 
> running through the beads and countersinking a nut so it was rigid. It's 
> been 9 years and it still looks great and is structurally sound. 
>
> As for the bars, I'm going to keep Noodle-ing, I think. At least for now.
>
> On Thursday, July 27, 2017 at 9:59:30 PM UTC-4, Joe Bernard wrote:
>>
>> Holy crap that's a nice build! Yes, you're at your shortening limit 
>> stem-wise so no Moustache for you, but you have plenty of room for 
>> Albatross and such-as if you ever want to try it. I'm about your size and 
>> tend to "buy big" as well: I like big, roomy frames that can take a 
>> pullback bar without feeling cramped. 
>
>

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[RBW] Re: D2R2 2017

[Broccoli Cog]

I'm still in and would love to meet up with like minded riders I am taking a 
very unracer like approach. May even wear "Jorts"

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[RBW] Re: OK to keep riding on this wheel, right?

[Philip Williamson]

I'm also in the "36 holes is already overkill" camp. I'm 230 lbs. 
On the other hand, I did just build up two used King hubs and reversed the 
spoke angles from the previous build, and I don't expect them to fail, 
either. 

Philip
www.biketinker.com 

On Thursday, July 27, 2017 at 4:46:03 PM UTC-7, Bill Lindsay wrote:
>
> Two people recommended a higher spoke count.  
>
> I'll respectfully disagree with that advice.  One might be in better shape 
> going to a higher spoke count if they are breaking spokes.  That failed hub 
> flange broke between two spoke holes.  If you go to a higher spoke count, 
> that little chunk of material between any two spokes gets even smaller and 
> even weaker.  It is true that a good experienced wheelbuilder has a rule of 
> thumb for spoke tension that they adjust as a function of number of spokes. 
>  Low spoke count wheels need higher tension and higher spoke count wheels 
> do not need as high a tension.  Even with that, I don't see a clear 
> hypothesis that the OP caused the broken hub by using too few spokes.  I'd 
> be more apt to argue the opposite.  32 spokes is plenty with modern rims, 
> and the hub flanges would be stronger with only 16 holes drilled in each 
> flange.  36 spokes is plenty for any normal single person bike application. 
>
> Bill Lindsay
> El Cerrito, CA
>
> On Thursday, July 27, 2017 at 3:03:14 PM UTC-7, Ryan Fleming wrote:
>>
>> I would press White a little more but maybe a higher spoke count is the 
>> way to go
>>
>> Of course I'm assuming you  sent White the photo and told them how long 
>> you had the wheel and what kind of load you're carrying as you told 
>> us...and note that kiddies in trailers tend to get heavier...I hauled my 
>> son around a lot in a trailer but not touring as you did. At any rate, I'm 
>> glad you found a reasonable replacement and carried on and had a great tour 
>>  in spite of this, and no one was hurt
>>
>> Anyway, I hope the story has a satisfactory ending
>>
>> One of the hallmarks of a  great  company is that they stand behind their 
>> product. White hubs are pretty and  pretty spendy
>>
>> Please let us know what happens.
>>
>> On Thursday, July 27, 2017 at 4:42:57 PM UTC-5, lconley wrote:
>>>
>>> I would go to 40 or 48 spokes for the next wheel. Why fool around trying 
>>> to save a few grams on spokes. Replacing a wheel on tour is not worth it. 
>>> Kind of like only carrying one water bottle to save weight in my mind. 
>>
>>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Grant Petersen Interview up on the Gravel & Grind website

[Mitch Harris]

On Friday, July 28, 2017 at 10:51:12 AM UTC-6, Patrick Moore wrote:
>
> I'd be *very* interested to learn more about this, and how it relates to 
> f-c, trail, hta, tires, and so forth. Anyone?
>


Keeping the right balance of weight on the front wheel helps with that nice 
turn-in you describe. It can be a challenge with any bike intended for 
fendered use by people who don't like toe overlap, where designers are 
trying to maximize front-center to keep toes out of fenders. That can be 
mitigated a little in a low trail bike because an extra 20mm fork offset 
puts the wheel further away. But in general low trail designs have longer 
front-center than some, if only because of more fork offset. Mtbs 
got elongated front-centers for endo-prevention from the late 90s 
on--Fischer called it Genesis Geometry. Plus there's been a decades long 
trend of preference for short chainstays. All this tends to take weight off 
the front wheel (in the last instance of mtbs that was intended). Add to 
that the front-end-lightening general trend for high handlebars in the RBW, 
600B, iBob world, and you can lose that nice front-weighted turn-in feel. 
Long chainstays move weight back forward to the front end, all else equal, 
and you see that in Riv models. Perhaps Grant has found a way to make a 
bike intended for high bars, fenders, and no toe-overlap that nevertheless 
keeps weight on the front wheel (by balancing a short as possible 
front-center with long chainstays and low bb) for that planted feel 
with responsive turn initiation. 

--Mitch 


(non-Riv) low trail designs because extra fork offset can put the wheel 
20mm further out there (a lot). 

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[RBW] Re: Rambling Interview with Grant: Trail, Women's bikes, Low gearing, Current Reading, Etc

[Jonathan D.]

So as a Portland resident, what is this talk of moving to Silverton? On a 
personal level I would love to be able to drive to the headquarters but there 
is something to Rivendell and the Bay Area golden hills. 

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[RBW] Richmond/El Cerrito RBW owners, hi!

[Dave]

Hey now, 

Just moved over to the Richmond Annex from N. Berkeley and know there's at 
least one bill lindsay over this-a-wayare there others? Would love to 
learn of some fun rides on this side of that Albany hill

Saw a fun looking Rosco Bubbe on san pablo recently

Dave

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[RBW] Re: SimpleOne - amazing web special deal!

[JohnS]

That didn't long!

JohnS

On Thursday, July 27, 2017 at 4:07:34 PM UTC-4, Ash [who works to bike] 
wrote:
>
> Wish I was taller!
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Grant Petersen Interview up on the Gravel & Grind website

['Chris Lampe 2' via RBW Owners Bunch]

The only thing I can think of is weight distribution.  To me, lower 
handlbars (ie, more weight on the front wheel) feels better than higher 
handlebars (less weight on front wheel).  It's always a balancing act 
between handling and comfort.  I hope there is some secret that will give 
me both! 



On Friday, July 28, 2017 at 11:51:12 AM UTC-5, Patrick Moore wrote:
>
> I'd be *very* interested to learn more about this, and how it relates to 
> f-c, trail, hta, tires, and so forth. Anyone?
>
> On Fri, Jul 28, 2017 at 10:04 AM, 'Chris Lampe 2' via RBW Owners Bunch <
> rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com > wrote:
>
>> [Snippo ...]
>> 3)  Grant has made a similar comment on handlebar height affecting 
>> handling but he would not elaborate on the specifics. 
>>
>>
>>
>>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Grant Petersen Interview up on the Gravel & Grind website

[Patrick Moore]

I'd be *very* interested to learn more about this, and how it relates to
f-c, trail, hta, tires, and so forth. Anyone?

On Fri, Jul 28, 2017 at 10:04 AM, 'Chris Lampe 2' via RBW Owners Bunch <
rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com> wrote:

> [Snippo ...]
> 3)  Grant has made a similar comment on handlebar height affecting
> handling but he would not elaborate on the specifics.
>
>
>
>

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[RBW] Re: OK to keep riding on this wheel, right?

[Greg J]

John,  I don't think you mentioned how many miles you have on that hub.  
But 5 years is not a long time.  I don't know much about this MI5 model.   
Unless it is designed for and sold as lightweight/unloaded type 
applications, I don't think this should happen on a MUSA, premium 
product  absent some stress-inducing event (like a crash or abuse).

Folks have been using Phil hubs for years precisely because they are 
durable and smooth, if a bit heavy.  I recommend you look into Phil.  Also, 
they have great service--I went to the factory, where they found me a part 
for my now-discontinued hub from the 1980s, and fixed and trued the wheel 
for me, for the cost of the part (~$10).

Glad it did not ruin your trip.

Keep riding,

-Greg



On Thursday, July 27, 2017 at 9:14:29 AM UTC-7, John Stowe wrote:

> Kidding, of course I took it off the bike immediately!
>
> After a 52 mile day I noticed a loose spoke on my Sam Hillborne, but soon 
> discovered that tightening it wasn't going to do much:
>
>
> 
>
> I thought that the White MI5 would be a pretty sturdy choice for my Sam 
> Hillborne. It's been a good match for the SON dynamo in front, and I've had 
> 5 years of zero trouble. Loads do trend toward the heavy side - 230 lb. 
> rider plus kid and trailer - but it doesn't take many big hits. I did get a 
> pinch flat about a month before, but it wasn't hard enough to damage the 
> rim. Never had trouble with broken spokes or rims (other than brake track 
> wear) on this wheel. Annoyed that it happened in the middle of a tour; also 
> a bit disappointed that White's reaction basically amounts to "well, that 
> happens sometimes". 
>
> A cheapo $70 disc wheel got me through the rest of the tour, but now it's 
> time to find the long term replacement. Any advice on:
>
>- I wasn't off base picking the MI5, was I? If so, does anyone have 
>one they want to sell me? 
>- What other rear hubs are people picking these days for heavy loading 
>like mine? 36 holes, preferably silver. I have been using Velocity Dyads 
>but will rebuild with NoBS to handle my new 42mm Soma Shikoro tires 
>slightly better.
>
> More soon about our family tour: supported end-to-end on the Erie Canal, 
> from Buffalo to Albany. Fortunately this was just a minor hitch in an 
> otherwise fun week of riding!
>
> -John
>
>

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[RBW] Re: Grant Petersen Interview up on the Gravel & Grind website

[drew]

Yeah. Front center is where my mind immediately went. I feel like he's said 
that pretty explicitly at some point, about how front center is more important 
to him than trail. I could very well be misremembering though.

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[RBW] Re: Grant Petersen Interview up on the Gravel & Grind website

['Chris Lampe 2' via RBW Owners Bunch]

Caught my attention as well and I hope it becomes a topic for discussion. 
 Some of my thoughts on what it might be:

1)  Riv geo charts always list a front-center measurement.  I think most 
bike companies don't list this measurement.
2)  I remember Grant referencing a shorter front-end and a longer rear-end 
as being preferable.  
3)  Grant has made a similar comment on handlebar height affecting handling 
but he would not elaborate on the specifics. 



On Thursday, July 27, 2017 at 2:15:21 PM UTC-5, dougP wrote:
>
> That part really caught my attention.  It lends credence to the notion 
> that trail can't be talked about in isolation, but is just one element of 
> the complete design.  Given Grant's refusal to get into the scrum of trail 
> discussions, we'll all just have to keep guessing what the magic parameter 
> is.  Ah, I can hear another thread opening even now.  
>
> dougP
>
> On Thursday, July 27, 2017 at 9:02:19 AM UTC-7, Peter Turskovitch wrote:
>>
>> Grant, from the interview:
>>
>> "Also, there’s another steering/bike handling parameter that probably 
>> matters more, although it’s far less well-known than trail is. Everybody at 
>> Rivendell knows what it is, we have a name for it, and all of our bikes are 
>> designed with it in mind. That’s true whether it’s me designing a new 
>> model, or Will or Roman or Mark working on a limited-run Rosco Bubbe. 
>> Everybody here knows, but I’m not going to say what it is, because it’s 
>> another can of worms, and it’ll attract the meanest mathematicians and 
>> physicists on the internet. Why do that?"
>>
>> What does everybody think he^s talking about here? I think he's referring 
>> to where the rider's center of gravity sits between the hubs, ie "chainstay 
>> length". 
>>
>

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[RBW] Re: Atlantis Bars: Drop or Moustache?

[Ryan Fleming]

I LOVE those fender spacers !

On Friday, July 28, 2017 at 7:22:25 AM UTC-5, ADH wrote:
>
> Thanks to everyone for the kind comments about my bike. I spent a LOT of 
> time looking at everyone else's Rivendells trying to figure out what I 
> wanted to do. So it's really an amalgamation of everyone else's ideas. 
> Except for the fender spacers. They were my idea. If anyone is interested 
> in trying something like that, I gave a pretty detailed explanation of what 
> I did in the Flickr comments. The key was having a stainless threaded bolt 
> running through the beads and countersinking a nut so it was rigid. It's 
> been 9 years and it still looks great and is structurally sound. 
>
> As for the bars, I'm going to keep Noodle-ing, I think. At least for now.
>
> On Thursday, July 27, 2017 at 9:59:30 PM UTC-4, Joe Bernard wrote:
>>
>> Holy crap that's a nice build! Yes, you're at your shortening limit 
>> stem-wise so no Moustache for you, but you have plenty of room for 
>> Albatross and such-as if you ever want to try it. I'm about your size and 
>> tend to "buy big" as well: I like big, roomy frames that can take a 
>> pullback bar without feeling cramped. 
>
>

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[RBW] Re: D2R2 2017

[EasyRider]

Finally! A picture of a built-up Red Roscoe! More?

On Friday, July 28, 2017 at 10:02:21 AM UTC-4, Eli Queen wrote:
>
> I'll be riding the 100k w/ a few friends. Should be a great weekend to get 
> out of the city, do some camping ... I really can't wait. My 5 year old 
> won't be coming along though (She'd probably try to talk me into towing her 
> on her trail-a-bike the whole way :)
>
> For any of you how've done it in the past: I'm trying to decide if I can 
> ride my Albatross-ed Rosco (see attached), or if I should do it on a Cross 
> Check that I have. Maybe put some 40mm Gravel King SK tires on the Rosco? 
>  Any input form the group would be appreciated.
>
> Thanks!
> Eli
>
>
>

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[RBW] Re: SimpleOne - amazing web special deal!

[Will Ashe]

The Simple One was sold. 

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[RBW] Re: Appaloosa question

[Philip Kim]

It's a demi-porteur/ rando rack he built himself under orc racks.

I have had two of his racks, and still have one of them on my girlfriend's 
pelican. It's very light and stiff, well built.  I've only carried about 
30lb of groceries on it, but it held up great.

Highly recommend a rack from him.

On Thursday, July 27, 2017 at 11:38:13 PM UTC-4, Jonathan D. wrote:
>
> Orc. What rack is that and how much weight does it supper?

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[RBW] PSA: Sam Hillborne 48cm for sale

[REC]

I saw this on the Washington, DC Craigslist, and the owner said it would be 
OK for me to pass on the info here.  
https://washingtondc.craigslist.org/doc/bik/6235419464.html

It's too small for me and I see they are no longer making this size.  No 
relation to the owner.

Roberta

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[RBW] Re: Rambling Interview with Grant: Trail, Women's bikes, Low gearing, Current Reading, Etc

[EasyRider]

I don't know what Riv's word is, but I think what's been suggested so far are 
probably all aspects of a comprehensive X factor. Longer chain stays and lower 
BBs have long been signature features of Riv frame geometry, and probably in 
the service of whatever GP is hinting at. The whole "in the bike" not on it 
thing.

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[RBW] Re: Atlantis Bars: Drop or Moustache?

[ADH]

Thanks to everyone for the kind comments about my bike. I spent a LOT of 
time looking at everyone else's Rivendells trying to figure out what I 
wanted to do. So it's really an amalgamation of everyone else's ideas. 
Except for the fender spacers. They were my idea. If anyone is interested 
in trying something like that, I gave a pretty detailed explanation of what 
I did in the Flickr comments. The key was having a stainless threaded bolt 
running through the beads and countersinking a nut so it was rigid. It's 
been 9 years and it still looks great and is structurally sound. 

As for the bars, I'm going to keep Noodle-ing, I think. At least for now.

On Thursday, July 27, 2017 at 9:59:30 PM UTC-4, Joe Bernard wrote:
>
> Holy crap that's a nice build! Yes, you're at your shortening limit 
> stem-wise so no Moustache for you, but you have plenty of room for 
> Albatross and such-as if you ever want to try it. I'm about your size and 
> tend to "buy big" as well: I like big, roomy frames that can take a 
> pullback bar without feeling cramped. 

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[RBW] Re: Atlantis Bars: Drop or Moustache?

[ascpgh]

What a great looking built. I can see why you are moving carefully on any 
changes.

When making bar changes, I get the new one in hand before I decide on a 
stem. An assessment of where you would have your hands for most riding and 
the difference of elevation considerations will give you some points of 
comparison to your built bike and its controls. I tolerated the change 
better that way compared to when I resorted to just putting it all together 
on standard recommendations. 

Andy Cheatham
Pittsburgh

On Thursday, July 27, 2017 at 9:02:18 AM UTC-4, ADH wrote:
>
> I have been riding my Atlantis with drop bars since I bought it almost 10 
> years ago. I ride with my hands either up against the brake hoods or on the 
> flat near the stem when I want to be more upright and almost never drop 
> down any more. I was all set to switch to a moustache bar when I realized 
> that the shape might require me to stretch forward more. Do those of you 
> who ride with moustache bars tend to keep your hands outboard near the bar 
> end shifters or more inboard near the brake levers? Thanks
>

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