Re: [RBW] Is it the tube, or the design?
On 06/20/2014 02:36 PM, Tim McNamara wrote: Yes, the design is the major factor in terms of how the bike handles and rides... however. The tubing diameter and wall thickness directly influence the stiffness (or perhaps more accurately the spring rate) of each tube. This in turn will affect the bike's response to loading whether from weight put on the bike or dynamic loading from pedaling, etc. Take a Roadeo and put 100 lbs of stuff in panniers on it and compare it to the same size Atlantis with the same load and the bikes will tolerate those loads differently; the odds are that the Atlantis will handle much better because the frame won't flex as much from the load. That's an extreme case, though, and for most aspects of the riding experience*the effects of frame design will be more prominent than whether the belly of the tube is .07 or .08*. However, on interwebs forums you'll find a lot of argument to the contrary from the princess and the pea crowd. I remember one guy on rec.bicycles hollering blue bloody murder because his custom bike came with a top tube like 3 mm off spec center to center and how the builder ruined his bike. I am so glad that I am not as sensitive to these things and too ignorant to know the difference. But you are comparing extreme cases here. The standard duty tubing wall thickness was 9/6/9 -- i.e., the belly of the tube is .06. A very light gauge tube set has .04 wall thickness, and the ultra-light tube sets even went down to .03. The heavy duty touring tube set was 10/7/10. So you're saying you won't be able to tell whether the tube is a very stiff heavy duty tube set, or an ultra stiff superheavy duty tube set. That's right: both will seem damned stiff. However, if you compared that 10/7/10 tube set with a 7/4/7 tube set, you almost certainly would notice the difference, and quite a big difference, too; and you wouldn't have to be a princess, either. The goatherd could tell that difference. Sorry I couldn't send this while I was at Bike Virginia; too many words to thumb in on my rooted Nook Simple Touch! -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
[RBW] Is it the tube, or the design?
My initial comments about my Heron Road generated a good bit of discussion about the perceived wonderfulness of a specific tube, which has been interesting and informative, but possibly misses a salient fact about said bicycle: I've owned several Grant-designed bikes, and they all have an hard-to-describe-if-you-haven't-experienced-it ability to float comfortably down the road; hold a stable line in a turn; yet snap into a different direction on a whim. I've ridden enough other bikes in 25 years to know this is not an universal quality in frame design, which is one of the things that makes Rivendells (and Riv-designed Herons) special. Of course the tubes chosen for each model/size are part of the equation, but I suspect the geometries they are placed into make more of a difference in the ride/handling than the specific properties of the tube themselves. This would be my guess, at any rate. Joe I can follow the path, I can read the signs. Stay right with it when the road unwinds Bernard Vallejo, CA -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: [RBW] Is it the tube, or the design?
As a Heron Road owner, I can certainly agree with what you've described below. I've never really cared about the tubes or tube specs as I've assumed that the great ride quality is the result of the geometry and careful tube selection. Simply picking up the same tubes and making a different bike with them would probably not generate the same result. It's a complete package I think. Hugh Happy Herron Flynn Newburyport, MA On Jun 20, 2014, at 11:24 AM, Joe Bernard wrote: My initial comments about my Heron Road generated a good bit of discussion about the perceived wonderfulness of a specific tube, which has been interesting and informative, but possibly misses a salient fact about said bicycle: I've owned several Grant-designed bikes, and they all have an hard-to-describe-if-you-haven't-experienced-it ability to float comfortably down the road; hold a stable line in a turn; yet snap into a different direction on a whim. I've ridden enough other bikes in 25 years to know this is not an universal quality in frame design, which is one of the things that makes Rivendells (and Riv-designed Herons) special. Of course the tubes chosen for each model/size are part of the equation, but I suspect the geometries they are placed into make more of a difference in the ride/handling than the specific properties of the tube themselves. This would be my guess, at any rate. Joe I can follow the path, I can read the signs. Stay right with it when the road unwinds Bernard Vallejo, CA -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: [RBW] Is it the tube, or the design?
Hi Joe, I agree with you about the Riv handling-- the ride of the Hunqapillar is just special compared to other bikes I've ridden. I remembered this blinded tubing comparison from Bruce Gordon's site. Steel vs Steel: Tange Prestige and Columbus SL http://www.bgcycles.com/frame-tubing-selection.html Great Heron build, BTW. shoji On Friday, June 20, 2014 11:37:13 AM UTC-4, Hugh Flynn wrote: As a Heron Road owner, I can certainly agree with what you've described below. I've never really cared about the tubes or tube specs as I've assumed that the great ride quality is the result of the geometry and careful tube selection. Simply picking up the same tubes and making a different bike with them would probably not generate the same result. It's a complete package I think. Hugh Happy Herron Flynn Newburyport, MA On Jun 20, 2014, at 11:24 AM, Joe Bernard wrote: My initial comments about my Heron Road generated a good bit of discussion about the perceived wonderfulness of a specific tube, which has been interesting and informative, but possibly misses a salient fact about said bicycle: I've owned several Grant-designed bikes, and they all have an hard-to-describe-if-you-haven't-experienced-it ability to float comfortably down the road; hold a stable line in a turn; yet snap into a different direction on a whim. I've ridden enough other bikes in 25 years to know this is not an universal quality in frame design, which is one of the things that makes Rivendells (and Riv-designed Herons) special. Of course the tubes chosen for each model/size are part of the equation, but I suspect the geometries they are placed into make more of a difference in the ride/handling than the specific properties of the tube themselves. This would be my guess, at any rate. Joe I can follow the path, I can read the signs. Stay right with it when the road unwinds Bernard Vallejo, CA -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to rbw-owners-bun...@googlegroups.com javascript:. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com javascript:. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: [RBW] Is it the tube, or the design?
That captures exactly what I love about the Rivendell road bikes I've owned -- particularly the snap into a different direction with no compromise in stability. I fully agree that minutiae about tubing specs play a very small part in this compared to frame design. Grant has a magic touch there. Interesting that even with very light 559 or 571 wheels and tires Grant's designs preserve this outstanding combination of stability, consistency, and intuitive turning. On Fri, Jun 20, 2014 at 9:24 AM, Joe Bernard joerem...@gmail.com wrote: ... a salient fact about said bicycle: I've owned several Grant-designed bikes, and they all have an hard-to-describe-if-you-haven't-experienced-it ability to float comfortably down the road; hold a stable line in a turn; yet snap into a different direction on a whim. I've ridden enough other bikes in 25 years to know this is not an universal quality in frame design, which is one of the things that makes Rivendells (and Riv-designed Herons) special. -- Resumes, LinkedIn profiles, and letters that get interviews. By-the-hour resume and LinkedIn coaching. Other professional writing services. http://www.resumespecialties.com/ Patrick Moore Albuquerque, Nouvelle Mexique, Etats Unis * * Where you come from is gone, where you thought you were going to never was there, and where you are is no good unless you can get away from it. Where is there a place for you to be? No place.* * Nothing outside you can give you any place, he said. You needn't to look at the sky because it's not going to open up and show no place behind it. You needn't to search for any hole in the ground to look through into somewhere else. You can't go neither forwards nor backwards into your daddy's time nor your children's if you have them. In yourself right now is all the place you've got. If there was any Fall, look there, if there was any Redemption, look there, and if you expect any Judgment, look there, because they all three will have to be in your time and your body and where in your time and your body can they be?* * Where in your time and your body has Jesus redeemed you? he cried. Show me where because I don't see the place. If there was a place where Jesus had redeemed you that would be the place for you to be, but which of you can find it?” -- Flannery O'Connor, Wise Blood * -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: [RBW] Is it the tube, or the design?
Shoji, Thanks for posting that link. It was an interesting read. I wonder if a lot of what they experienced in road dampening qualities was due to the difference in fork flex (thinking of Jan Heine's ideas about the shock absorption of round, thin wall fork blades). It would be interesting to swap forks between bikes and see what happened. Aaron Young The Dalles, OR On Fri, Jun 20, 2014 at 9:06 AM, Shoji Takahashi shoji.takaha...@gmail.com wrote: Hi Joe, I agree with you about the Riv handling-- the ride of the Hunqapillar is just special compared to other bikes I've ridden. I remembered this blinded tubing comparison from Bruce Gordon's site. Steel vs Steel: Tange Prestige and Columbus SL http://www.bgcycles.com/frame-tubing-selection.html Great Heron build, BTW. shoji On Friday, June 20, 2014 11:37:13 AM UTC-4, Hugh Flynn wrote: As a Heron Road owner, I can certainly agree with what you've described below. I've never really cared about the tubes or tube specs as I've assumed that the great ride quality is the result of the geometry and careful tube selection. Simply picking up the same tubes and making a different bike with them would probably not generate the same result. It's a complete package I think. Hugh Happy Herron Flynn Newburyport, MA On Jun 20, 2014, at 11:24 AM, Joe Bernard wrote: My initial comments about my Heron Road generated a good bit of discussion about the perceived wonderfulness of a specific tube, which has been interesting and informative, but possibly misses a salient fact about said bicycle: I've owned several Grant-designed bikes, and they all have an hard-to-describe-if-you-haven't-experienced-it ability to float comfortably down the road; hold a stable line in a turn; yet snap into a different direction on a whim. I've ridden enough other bikes in 25 years to know this is not an universal quality in frame design, which is one of the things that makes Rivendells (and Riv-designed Herons) special. Of course the tubes chosen for each model/size are part of the equation, but I suspect the geometries they are placed into make more of a difference in the ride/handling than the specific properties of the tube themselves. This would be my guess, at any rate. Joe I can follow the path, I can read the signs. Stay right with it when the road unwinds Bernard Vallejo, CA -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to rbw-owners-bun...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: [RBW] Is it the tube, or the design?
Yes, the design is the major factor in terms of how the bike handles and rides... however. The tubing diameter and wall thickness directly influence the stiffness (or perhaps more accurately the spring rate) of each tube. This in turn will affect the bike's response to loading whether from weight put on the bike or dynamic loading from pedaling, etc. Take a Roadeo and put 100 lbs of stuff in panniers on it and compare it to the same size Atlantis with the same load and the bikes will tolerate those loads differently; the odds are that the Atlantis will handle much better because the frame won't flex as much from the load. That's an extreme case, though, and for most aspects of the riding experience the effects of frame design will be more prominent than whether the belly of the tube is .07 or .08. However, on interwebs forums you'll find a lot of argument to the contrary from the princess and the pea crowd. I remember one guy on rec.bicycles hollering blue bloody murder because his custom bike came with a top tube like 3 mm off spec center to center and how the builder ruined his bike. I am so glad that I am not as sensitive to these things and too ignorant to know the difference. Tim On Jun 20, 2014, at 12:30 PM, dougP dougpn...@cox.net wrote: Surely the design is the lion's share of a bike's handling, ride, response, etc. The raw material would have to be top quality to produce the designer's intent, but likely there are several vendors products that are functionally interchangeable. Designers like Grant have accumulated years (decades?) of experience. Remember his how to design a frame tutorial a couple of years ago? Ain't so easy, I suspect. dougP On Friday, June 20, 2014 8:24:30 AM UTC-7, Joe Bernard wrote: My initial comments about my Heron Road generated a good bit of discussion about the perceived wonderfulness of a specific tube, which has been interesting and informative, but possibly misses a salient fact about said bicycle: I've owned several Grant-designed bikes, and they all have an hard-to-describe-if-you-haven't-experienced-it ability to float comfortably down the road; hold a stable line in a turn; yet snap into a different direction on a whim. I've ridden enough other bikes in 25 years to know this is not an universal quality in frame design, which is one of the things that makes Rivendells (and Riv-designed Herons) special. Of course the tubes chosen for each model/size are part of the equation, but I suspect the geometries they are placed into make more of a difference in the ride/handling than the specific properties of the tube themselves. This would be my guess, at any rate. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
