Re: [RBW] Re: [BOB] Pro 5 Vis ring very out of true or out of round

[Patrick Moore]

Good point; definitely a question of tolerances; up for debate whether a
matter of QA.

On Sat, Sep 2, 2017 at 1:18 PM, Peter White  wrote:

> I'd say it's a judgement call whether or not it is a quality control
> issue. In manufacturing, you always set a standard for precision. Take
> chains. Modern bicycle chains are ½ inch pin to pin. Are they exactly ½
> inch? How do you define "exactly?" To what tolerance? If you set the
> tolerance to within a certain number of atoms, say three atoms, and if you
> could actually produce them to that degree of precision, you would get
> really precise chains. But does a bicycle chain have to be produced to that
> degree of precision? We all know the answer.
>
> With a rear derailleur, the chainring can work perfectly well with more
> runout than would be acceptable on a track bike. And the runout that's
> acceptable on a track bike used for a local club race would probably not be
> acceptable to a top professional competing at the world championships.
>
> PJW
> Peter White Cycles
>
> On Sat, Sep 2, 2017 at 7:50 PM, Patrick Moore  wrote:
>
>> Thanks, all. I'm going to replace this 48 with another that I have, and
>> hope that the other one is more "true."
>>
>> And: if anyone has 3/32 * 48 t 50.4 bcd rings to sell or trade -- *in
>> very good condition, please!* --please lmk.
>>
>> * I use 9 speed chains 'cuz I use Dingle cogs.
>>
>> Peter: Then the upshot is that these old rings are just often out of
>> round -- poor quality control? I've noticed some runout on the many other
>> Pro 5 Vis rings (all older ones) that I've used for fixed gear drivetrains,
>> but never to the extent of this one.
>>
>> Makes me wish I still had my 20 lb box of Stronglight 49 cranks and rings
>> ... I've notice slight runout with Stronglights and other cranks and rings,
>> but not as with TA and certainly not as with this particular ring. And,
>> it's the ring; the 46 t ring, also older Pro 5 Vis, that this 48 replaced,
>> didn't have nearly the this degree of runout.
>>
>> On Sat, Sep 2, 2017 at 5:30 AM, Peter White 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Rotating the ring will make no useful difference, though it will tell
>>> you how much of the runout is in the ring and how much is in the crank.
>>>
>>> While the Pro 5 Vis crank can be used as a single speed, it was never
>>> intended for use without a chain tensioner, which rear derailleurs include
>>> by default. So TA doesn't need to be very precise in centering the ring or
>>> the crank itself.
>>>
>>
>>
>> Justin: I don't get it: it's not bent, it circumferentially eccentric --
>> as many of the others I've used are, too; just a lot more so.
>>
>> On Sat, Sep 2, 2017 at 6:49 AM, Justin Hughes  w
>> rote:
>> Right. That's one reason why SS intended rings are thicker and stiffer,
>> right?
>>
>>
>> Brian: it's rather new, in fact; age and wear is not the problem.
>>
>>  On Sat, Sep 2, 2017 at 11:17 AM, Brian Campbell 
>>  wrote:
>>
>>> Simply time for a new chainring. Things do eventually wear out and have
>>> to be replaced or discarded. I consider it a positive outcome when if comes
>>> to bikes.
>>>
>>> --
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>
>
>
> --
> Peter White
>
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**
**
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Re: [RBW] Re: [BOB] Pro 5 Vis ring very out of true or out of round

[Peter White]

I'd say it's a judgement call whether or not it is a quality control issue.
In manufacturing, you always set a standard for precision. Take chains.
Modern bicycle chains are ½ inch pin to pin. Are they exactly ½ inch? How
do you define "exactly?" To what tolerance? If you set the tolerance to
within a certain number of atoms, say three atoms, and if you could
actually produce them to that degree of precision, you would get really
precise chains. But does a bicycle chain have to be produced to that degree
of precision? We all know the answer.

With a rear derailleur, the chainring can work perfectly well with more
runout than would be acceptable on a track bike. And the runout that's
acceptable on a track bike used for a local club race would probably not be
acceptable to a top professional competing at the world championships.

PJW
Peter White Cycles

On Sat, Sep 2, 2017 at 7:50 PM, Patrick Moore  wrote:

> Thanks, all. I'm going to replace this 48 with another that I have, and
> hope that the other one is more "true."
>
> And: if anyone has 3/32 * 48 t 50.4 bcd rings to sell or trade -- *in
> very good condition, please!* --please lmk.
>
> * I use 9 speed chains 'cuz I use Dingle cogs.
>
> Peter: Then the upshot is that these old rings are just often out of round
> -- poor quality control? I've noticed some runout on the many other Pro 5
> Vis rings (all older ones) that I've used for fixed gear drivetrains, but
> never to the extent of this one.
>
> Makes me wish I still had my 20 lb box of Stronglight 49 cranks and rings
> ... I've notice slight runout with Stronglights and other cranks and rings,
> but not as with TA and certainly not as with this particular ring. And,
> it's the ring; the 46 t ring, also older Pro 5 Vis, that this 48 replaced,
> didn't have nearly the this degree of runout.
>
> On Sat, Sep 2, 2017 at 5:30 AM, Peter White  wrote:
>
>> Rotating the ring will make no useful difference, though it will tell you
>> how much of the runout is in the ring and how much is in the crank.
>>
>> While the Pro 5 Vis crank can be used as a single speed, it was never
>> intended for use without a chain tensioner, which rear derailleurs include
>> by default. So TA doesn't need to be very precise in centering the ring or
>> the crank itself.
>>
>
>
> Justin: I don't get it: it's not bent, it circumferentially eccentric --
> as many of the others I've used are, too; just a lot more so.
>
> On Sat, Sep 2, 2017 at 6:49 AM, Justin Hughes  wrote:
> Right. That's one reason why SS intended rings are thicker and stiffer,
> right?
>
>
> Brian: it's rather new, in fact; age and wear is not the problem.
>
>  On Sat, Sep 2, 2017 at 11:17 AM, Brian Campbell 
>  wrote:
>
>> Simply time for a new chainring. Things do eventually wear out and have
>> to be replaced or discarded. I consider it a positive outcome when if comes
>> to bikes.
>>
>> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> "RBW Owners Bunch" group.
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> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
>



-- 
Peter White

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Re: [RBW] Re: [BOB] Pro 5 Vis ring very out of true or out of round

[Patrick Moore]

Thanks, all. I'm going to replace this 48 with another that I have, and
hope that the other one is more "true."

And: if anyone has 3/32 * 48 t 50.4 bcd rings to sell or trade -- *in very
good condition, please!* --please lmk.

* I use 9 speed chains 'cuz I use Dingle cogs.

Peter: Then the upshot is that these old rings are just often out of round
-- poor quality control? I've noticed some runout on the many other Pro 5
Vis rings (all older ones) that I've used for fixed gear drivetrains, but
never to the extent of this one.

Makes me wish I still had my 20 lb box of Stronglight 49 cranks and rings
... I've notice slight runout with Stronglights and other cranks and rings,
but not as with TA and certainly not as with this particular ring. And,
it's the ring; the 46 t ring, also older Pro 5 Vis, that this 48 replaced,
didn't have nearly the this degree of runout.

On Sat, Sep 2, 2017 at 5:30 AM, Peter White  wrote:

> Rotating the ring will make no useful difference, though it will tell you
> how much of the runout is in the ring and how much is in the crank.
>
> While the Pro 5 Vis crank can be used as a single speed, it was never
> intended for use without a chain tensioner, which rear derailleurs include
> by default. So TA doesn't need to be very precise in centering the ring or
> the crank itself.
>


Justin: I don't get it: it's not bent, it circumferentially eccentric -- as
many of the others I've used are, too; just a lot more so.

On Sat, Sep 2, 2017 at 6:49 AM, Justin Hughes  wrote:
Right. That's one reason why SS intended rings are thicker and stiffer,
right?


Brian: it's rather new, in fact; age and wear is not the problem.

 On Sat, Sep 2, 2017 at 11:17 AM, Brian Campbell 
 wrote:

> Simply time for a new chainring. Things do eventually wear out and have to
> be replaced or discarded. I consider it a positive outcome when if comes to
> bikes.
>
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: [BOB] Pro 5 Vis ring very out of true or out of round

[Peter White]

Rotating the ring will make no useful difference, though it will tell you
how much of the runout is in the ring and how much is in the crank.

While the Pro 5 Vis crank can be used as a single speed, it was never
intended for use without a chain tensioner, which rear derailleurs include
by default. So TA doesn't need to be very precise in centering the ring or
the crank itself.

PJW
Peter White Cycles
Which, among other things, is a TA distributor.

On Fri, Sep 1, 2017 at 11:24 PM, Joe Bunik  wrote:

> IMO, Pro-5 rings have a single proper orientation and 4 unintended
> positions. I doubt this will solve your issue, but try for the spot
> where the crankarm splits the difference (and so is centered) between
> the pair of bolts. At least your setup will look proper! ;-P
>
> =- Joe Bunik
> meltdown in
> Walnut Creek CA
>
> On 9/1/17, Patrick Moore  wrote:
> > Yesterday, for the very first time, or at least for the first time in
> such
> > a long time that I can't remember the last time, I threw a chain on one
> of
> > my Rivendell fixies: 48 t Pro 5 Vis ring, the 17 t cog on a 17/19 Dingle.
> > Although I was going downhills, I wasn't going fast, so there was no real
> > damage done, a few minor scratches on the chainstay.
> >
> > I examined the chain tension carefully, of course, and notice clearly for
> > the first time that the ring is very much out of round: at one point in
> its
> > revolution the chain will be quite slack, at the point of highest tension
> > is can be too tight, with no give at all.
> >
> > So this afternoon I undid all the little *&%#(^#% fiddly bolts to loosen
> > it, hoping I could nudge it into a more regular position on the spider;
> > nope, even with all the bolts loosened to the point where the ring was
> > flopping around, the same slack point and the same tight point.
> >
> > I took the whole thing apart and will try re-orienting the ring on the
> > spider -- ie, lining up different bolt holes on ring with different ones
> on
> > spider, but this is very weird, and here (deep breath) are my questions:
> >
> > Can rings, and older Pro 5 Vis rings in particular, just be drilled or
> > stamped or cut off center?
> >
> > Is there a magic, lazyman technique to find the best orientation of ring
> to
> > spider without having to ploddingly try each hole in the ring with each
> > hole in the spider?
> >
> > Thanks.
> >
> >
> > --
> > Resumes, LinkedIn profiles, bios, and letters that get interviews.
> > By-the-hour resume and LinkedIn coaching.
> > Other professional writing services.
> > http://www.resumespecialties.com/
> > www.linkedin.com/in/patrickmooreresumespec/
> > Patrick Moore
> > Alburquerque, Nouvelle Mexique,  Vereinigte Staaten
> > 
> **
> > **
> > *Auditis an me ludit amabilis insania?*
> >
> > --
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[RBW] Re: [BOB] Pro 5 Vis ring very out of true or out of round

[Joe Bunik]

IMO, Pro-5 rings have a single proper orientation and 4 unintended
positions. I doubt this will solve your issue, but try for the spot
where the crankarm splits the difference (and so is centered) between
the pair of bolts. At least your setup will look proper! ;-P

=- Joe Bunik
meltdown in
Walnut Creek CA

On 9/1/17, Patrick Moore  wrote:
> Yesterday, for the very first time, or at least for the first time in such
> a long time that I can't remember the last time, I threw a chain on one of
> my Rivendell fixies: 48 t Pro 5 Vis ring, the 17 t cog on a 17/19 Dingle.
> Although I was going downhills, I wasn't going fast, so there was no real
> damage done, a few minor scratches on the chainstay.
>
> I examined the chain tension carefully, of course, and notice clearly for
> the first time that the ring is very much out of round: at one point in its
> revolution the chain will be quite slack, at the point of highest tension
> is can be too tight, with no give at all.
>
> So this afternoon I undid all the little *&%#(^#% fiddly bolts to loosen
> it, hoping I could nudge it into a more regular position on the spider;
> nope, even with all the bolts loosened to the point where the ring was
> flopping around, the same slack point and the same tight point.
>
> I took the whole thing apart and will try re-orienting the ring on the
> spider -- ie, lining up different bolt holes on ring with different ones on
> spider, but this is very weird, and here (deep breath) are my questions:
>
> Can rings, and older Pro 5 Vis rings in particular, just be drilled or
> stamped or cut off center?
>
> Is there a magic, lazyman technique to find the best orientation of ring to
> spider without having to ploddingly try each hole in the ring with each
> hole in the spider?
>
> Thanks.
>
>
> --
> Resumes, LinkedIn profiles, bios, and letters that get interviews.
> By-the-hour resume and LinkedIn coaching.
> Other professional writing services.
> http://www.resumespecialties.com/
> www.linkedin.com/in/patrickmooreresumespec/
> Patrick Moore
> Alburquerque, Nouvelle Mexique,  Vereinigte Staaten
> **
> **
> *Auditis an me ludit amabilis insania?*
>
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