Re: [RBW] Re: Anyone using SunXCD Exceed cranks?

[Joel Stern]

Thanks Garth, looks great, could not find it with a 165mm.

On Thu, Aug 13, 2020 at 4:15 PM Garth  wrote:

>
>
>   Have you seen these Andel cranks Joel, they're 110 BCD 170mm straight
> arms from Andel, who is a well known quality crank manufacturer. They also
> happen to make Rivs Silver crank. This particular crank only says "forged",
> but frankly neither are many high quality cranks, like TA Carmina. It's the
> quality of the forging and design that counts regardless of the
> temperature. You'd have to inquire about shipping.
>
>
> https://thecycleclinic.co.uk/products/andel-rsc7-road-touring-fluted-chainset-triple-170mm-48-36-26t-square-taper?_pos=31&_sid=0690bd31b&_ss=r
>
> http://www.andel.com.tw/products_d.php?pid=55=12
>
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[RBW] Re: Anyone using SunXCD Exceed cranks?

[Garth]

  Have you seen these Andel cranks Joel, they're 110 BCD 170mm straight 
arms from Andel, who is a well known quality crank manufacturer. They also 
happen to make Rivs Silver crank. This particular crank only says "forged", 
but frankly neither are many high quality cranks, like TA Carmina. It's the 
quality of the forging and design that counts regardless of the 
temperature. You'd have to inquire about shipping. 

https://thecycleclinic.co.uk/products/andel-rsc7-road-touring-fluted-chainset-triple-170mm-48-36-26t-square-taper?_pos=31&_sid=0690bd31b&_ss=r

http://www.andel.com.tw/products_d.php?pid=55=12

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Re: [RBW] Re: Anyone using SunXCD Exceed cranks?

[Joel Stern]

Thanks, I know Peter, he is going to build some wheels for me.  I wonder if
this makes for a wider Q than using the 110 adaptor?  The shop in the YK
can do it all, I an just not versed in the Pro 5 V chainrings. I have
almost always used the Zephyr but sold my other one on a bike (kicking
myself as I type).

On Thu, Aug 13, 2020 at 1:45 PM lconley  wrote:

> The triple TA Cyclotourise Pro 5 Vis is just the double with longer bolts
> and extra spacers and another chainring. I have a SunXCD, but I run it as a
> single with a VO chainring. For the triple, the outer chain ring bolts to
> the crank and the inner two chain rings bolt to the outer chainring.
>
> Peter White (peterwhitecycles.com) in New Hampshire is a US distributor
> for TA and should be able to set you up with what you need.
>
> Laing
>
> On Thursday, August 13, 2020 at 1:13:52 PM UTC-4, Joel wrote:
>
>>
>> After corresponding with a shop in the UK the suggest using TA Pro 5 Vis
>> Cyclotouriste.  The day I could do a triple with this but everywhere I have
>> looked shows them as an inner/outer.  For a bunch more money I could get a
>> 110 adapter and use TA Zephyr rings which I have used in the past, even
>> have some extras here.  But to be honest I am totally confused as I am not
>> mechanical.  I was set to use either the Sugino XD600 but have found out it
>> is hot forged which I believe is not as good as cold forged.  The VO
>> crankset I brought in has a slight finish defect on the outside of the
>> outer ring.  Using the SunXCD is probablt $100 more since they are not
>> readily available here in the US.
>> On Wednesday, January 6, 2016 at 3:57:58 PM UTC-5, Jack Doran wrote:
>>>
>>> They are as beautiful as the venerable TA Cyclotouriste cranks with a
>>> low q factor but at half the price. They're also compatible with
>>> Specialites rings, which is nice for the sake of gearing versatility. None
>>> of these point to their performance. Have any of you folks tried them or do
>>> you know anyone who has? There is quite a bit online about Suntour bringing
>>> them out a few years ago but I can't find any reviews.
>>>
>>> http://somafab.blogspot.com/2013/03/sun-xcd-cranks-and-hubs.html
>>>
>>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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[RBW] Re: Anyone using SunXCD Exceed cranks?

[lconley]

The triple TA Cyclotourise Pro 5 Vis is just the double with longer bolts 
and extra spacers and another chainring. I have a SunXCD, but I run it as a 
single with a VO chainring. For the triple, the outer chain ring bolts to 
the crank and the inner two chain rings bolt to the outer chainring.

Peter White (peterwhitecycles.com) in New Hampshire is a US distributor for 
TA and should be able to set you up with what you need.

Laing

On Thursday, August 13, 2020 at 1:13:52 PM UTC-4, Joel wrote:

>
> After corresponding with a shop in the UK the suggest using TA Pro 5 Vis 
> Cyclotouriste.  The day I could do a triple with this but everywhere I have 
> looked shows them as an inner/outer.  For a bunch more money I could get a 
> 110 adapter and use TA Zephyr rings which I have used in the past, even 
> have some extras here.  But to be honest I am totally confused as I am not 
> mechanical.  I was set to use either the Sugino XD600 but have found out it 
> is hot forged which I believe is not as good as cold forged.  The VO 
> crankset I brought in has a slight finish defect on the outside of the 
> outer ring.  Using the SunXCD is probablt $100 more since they are not 
> readily available here in the US.  
> On Wednesday, January 6, 2016 at 3:57:58 PM UTC-5, Jack Doran wrote:
>>
>> They are as beautiful as the venerable TA Cyclotouriste cranks with a low 
>> q factor but at half the price. They're also compatible with Specialites 
>> rings, which is nice for the sake of gearing versatility. None of these 
>> point to their performance. Have any of you folks tried them or do you know 
>> anyone who has? There is quite a bit online about Suntour bringing them out 
>> a few years ago but I can't find any reviews. 
>>
>> http://somafab.blogspot.com/2013/03/sun-xcd-cranks-and-hubs.html
>>
>

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[RBW] Re: Anyone using SunXCD Exceed cranks?

[Joel]

After corresponding with a shop in the UK the suggest using TA Pro 5 Vis 
Cyclotouriste.  The day I could do a triple with this but everywhere I have 
looked shows them as an inner/outer.  For a bunch more money I could get a 
110 adapter and use TA Zephyr rings which I have used in the past, even 
have some extras here.  But to be honest I am totally confused as I am not 
mechanical.  I was set to use either the Sugino XD600 but have found out it 
is hot forged which I believe is not as good as cold forged.  The VO 
crankset I brought in has a slight finish defect on the outside of the 
outer ring.  Using the SunXCD is probablt $100 more since they are not 
readily available here in the US.  
On Wednesday, January 6, 2016 at 3:57:58 PM UTC-5, Jack Doran wrote:
>
> They are as beautiful as the venerable TA Cyclotouriste cranks with a low 
> q factor but at half the price. They're also compatible with Specialites 
> rings, which is nice for the sake of gearing versatility. None of these 
> point to their performance. Have any of you folks tried them or do you know 
> anyone who has? There is quite a bit online about Suntour bringing them out 
> a few years ago but I can't find any reviews. 
>
> http://somafab.blogspot.com/2013/03/sun-xcd-cranks-and-hubs.html
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Anyone using SunXCD Exceed cranks?

[Ron Mc]

I have a few thousand on mine and am totally delighted with it.  I'm also 
pretty tough on cranks and BB - 6'3", 215, stand hard and ride 
aggressively.  

What was broken was used T/A left side arm of unknown age.  I wasn't really 
complaining about anything, as much as justifying why I bought the XCD to 
begin with...

On Thursday, January 7, 2016 at 9:50:29 PM UTC-6, jbu...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> Jan/Ron/all, 
> just a quick note, and I'll need to dredge the archives - but seem to 
> recall some scuttlebutt that the 1st batch of these XCD cranks had 
> breakage issues, and possibly were called back. I hope I am correct in 
> saying that! 
> =- Joe 
>
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Anyone using SunXCD Exceed cranks?

[Jack Doran]

Thanks Ron and Dave, and an FYI for anyone else who may interested, lives 
in the Bay Area and likes to throw money Hiroshi's way: Jitensha doesn't 
have any at the moment.

On Thursday, January 7, 2016 at 10:06:06 AM UTC-8, Ron Mc wrote:
>
> that's less than I paid from Japan.  
>
> On Thursday, January 7, 2016 at 11:21:27 AM UTC-6, David Banzer wrote:
>>
>> Nice find. They do ship to the US, though VAT is not included in the 
>> listed price, so that'd be the price. About $105 shipped to the US.
>> David
>> Chicago
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> http://www.veloduo.co.uk/products/sun-tour-sunxcd-crank-arms-50-4-bcd-110-bcd-stronglight-49d-ta-cyclotouriste
>>>
>>

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[RBW] Re: Anyone using SunXCD Exceed cranks?

[Jan Heine]

The photo shows that the crank seated fairly deeply. It was well within the 
range of what's acceptable. Much deeper, and you run the risk of bottoming 
out the crank bolt. The taper has a very shallow angle, so even small 
variations in the taper cause big differences in how deep the crank seats. 
Since there are tolerances in the dimensions of both BB and crank, you need 
some margin for these tolerances. If you designed the system that the BB 
spindle comes within 1 mm of the end of the crank, you'd get 10% where the 
spindle is a tad small or the crank taper a tad large, and the spindle 
would extend beyond the  edge of the crank. The crank bolt would bottom 
out, and you couldn't tighten the crank properly.

It's hard to speculate about the reason for the failure. It's not a place 
where the crank gets stressed in use, only when mounting. It could be that 
the crank was tightened repeatedly by a previous owner, and thus pulled 
further and further onto the spindle, until it "burst". (Repeated 
tightening is not recommended - install the crank and tighten it once 50 
miles later. Then leave it alone. After 2 years or so, take it off, inspect 
it and reinstall it. But don't just tighten it every few months or so.) 
Another possible explanation is a flaw in the forging.

Jan Heine
Compass Bicycles Ltd.
www.compasscycle.com

On Thursday, January 7, 2016 at 11:57:38 AM UTC+9, Ron Mc wrote:
>
> I think Peter's dead on, it may have not seated deeply enough, and I maybe 
> contact stresses were too high. 
>
>
> 
>
> or it may have just been seated too many times on too many tapers.  I 
> didn't know the age of it, it was a used ebay purchase.
>

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[RBW] Re: Anyone using SunXCD Exceed cranks?

[Ron Mc]

no worries Jan.  It was clearly fatigue cracking that started at the inside 
corners of the taper in the crank arm.  Also when I removed the drive side 
TA, I cleaned the tapers and dye-checked them.  There were no cracks, but 
there's also a lot more metal cross section there.  I'm pretty good about 
crank installation and torque.  I use grease and spanish cedar blocks to 
tap them on so I get good alignment, and have a really good indexing torque 
wrench (it's dial-vernier and clicks at the preset torque).  It was 
certainly not loose (which can cause cracking from uneven cyclic contact 
stress) - even cracked, there was no wobble until it quit full out.  I'm 
sure it was accumulated damage over its age.  I've bought 3 SKF BB from 
you, and would be the last person to badmouth them, so don't take this next 
observation wrong.  I have noticed both ISO (Campy Centaur) and JIS on the 
other two seem to have bigger square tapers than other spindles.  Out of 
the 3 cranks, the XD sits the deepest on them.  

On Thursday, January 7, 2016 at 7:49:43 PM UTC-6, Jan Heine wrote:
>
> The photo shows that the crank seated fairly deeply. It was well within 
> the range of what's acceptable. Much deeper, and you run the risk of 
> bottoming out the crank bolt. The taper has a very shallow angle, so even 
> small variations in the taper cause big differences in how deep the crank 
> seats. Since there are tolerances in the dimensions of both BB and crank, 
> you need some margin for these tolerances. If you designed the system that 
> the BB spindle comes within 1 mm of the end of the crank, you'd get 10% 
> where the spindle is a tad small or the crank taper a tad large, and the 
> spindle would extend beyond the  edge of the crank. The crank bolt would 
> bottom out, and you couldn't tighten the crank properly.
>
> It's hard to speculate about the reason for the failure. It's not a place 
> where the crank gets stressed in use, only when mounting. It could be that 
> the crank was tightened repeatedly by a previous owner, and thus pulled 
> further and further onto the spindle, until it "burst". (Repeated 
> tightening is not recommended - install the crank and tighten it once 50 
> miles later. Then leave it alone. After 2 years or so, take it off, inspect 
> it and reinstall it. But don't just tighten it every few months or so.) 
> Another possible explanation is a flaw in the forging.
>
> Jan Heine
> Compass Bicycles Ltd.
> www.compasscycle.com
>
>
>

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[RBW] Re: Anyone using SunXCD Exceed cranks?

[Jan Heine]

Ron,

I wasn't worried about the SKF BB's reputation, but just trying to figure 
out what could have happened to your poor crank. (I used to run a bunch of 
second-hand TAs without problems, but I switched to a René Herse on my 
Urban Bike as a precaution.) Interestingly, with the old TA crank tapers 
being JIS, that actually opens up a much larger range of suitable BBs.

The two tapers (JIS and ISO) are so close that you can get away with 
substituting JIS for ISO. We have several customers who run old Campagnolo 
Nuovo Record cranks (close to ISO taper) on JIS SKF bottom brackets. They 
use a 113 mm spindle instead of the 114.5, and that difference gives them 
the correct chainline (with a spacer to get the offset that the old Campy 
cranks required). The spindle penetrates 0.75 mm less into the crank, but 
that hasn't been a problem in practice. (Of course, we cannot officially 
recommend this.)

Jan Heine
Compass Bicycles Ltd.
www.compasscycle.com

On Friday, January 8, 2016 at 11:11:33 AM UTC+9, Ron Mc wrote:
>
> no worries Jan.  It was clearly fatigue cracking that started at the 
> inside corners of the taper in the crank arm.  [...]I've bought 3 SKF BB 
> from you, and would be the last person to badmouth them, so don't take this 
> next observation wrong.  
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Anyone using SunXCD Exceed cranks?

[Joe Bunik]

Jan/Ron/all,
just a quick note, and I'll need to dredge the archives - but seem to
recall some scuttlebutt that the 1st batch of these XCD cranks had
breakage issues, and possibly were called back. I hope I am correct in
saying that!
=- Joe

On 1/7/16, Jan Heine  wrote:
> Ron,
>
> I wasn't worried about the SKF BB's reputation, but just trying to figure
> out what could have happened to your poor crank. (I used to run a bunch of
> second-hand TAs without problems, but I switched to a René Herse on my
> Urban Bike as a precaution.) Interestingly, with the old TA crank tapers
> being JIS, that actually opens up a much larger range of suitable BBs.
>
> The two tapers (JIS and ISO) are so close that you can get away with
> substituting JIS for ISO. We have several customers who run old Campagnolo
> Nuovo Record cranks (close to ISO taper) on JIS SKF bottom brackets. They
> use a 113 mm spindle instead of the 114.5, and that difference gives them
> the correct chainline (with a spacer to get the offset that the old Campy
> cranks required). The spindle penetrates 0.75 mm less into the crank, but
> that hasn't been a problem in practice. (Of course, we cannot officially
> recommend this.)
>
> Jan Heine
> Compass Bicycles Ltd.
> www.compasscycle.com
>
> On Friday, January 8, 2016 at 11:11:33 AM UTC+9, Ron Mc wrote:
>>
>> no worries Jan.  It was clearly fatigue cracking that started at the
>> inside corners of the taper in the crank arm.  [...]I've bought 3 SKF BB
>> from you, and would be the last person to badmouth them, so don't take
>> this
>> next observation wrong.
>>
>
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[RBW] Re: Anyone using SunXCD Exceed cranks?

[Ron Mc]

After I broke a well-used T/A left side crank arm, I ended up buying a Sun 
XCD crank from Japan, for a wheelset and fender rebuild.  
The new chainline was also a bit better, mostly because it better fit the 
JIS tapers on my SKF bb (which I think was at least part of the reason the 
older TA cracked).  
Got a very good price, but maybe only $15 less than Jitsensha's price 
(after paying a broker charge).  
I have a few thousand miles on it since then.  Fits a cyclotouriste 
chainring assy perfectly.  It has flare on the crank arms, which the TA 
doesn't, but I actually prefer the wider stance.  


  

Not the stock spindle bolt covers in this photo, but titanium that was on 
ebay for awhile.   


On Wednesday, January 6, 2016 at 2:57:58 PM UTC-6, Jack Doran wrote:
>
> They are as beautiful as the venerable TA Cyclotouriste cranks with a low 
> q factor but at half the price. They're also compatible with Specialites 
> rings, which is nice for the sake of gearing versatility. None of these 
> point to their performance. Have any of you folks tried them or do you know 
> anyone who has? There is quite a bit online about Suntour bringing them out 
> a few years ago but I can't find any reviews. 
>
> http://somafab.blogspot.com/2013/03/sun-xcd-cranks-and-hubs.html
>

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[RBW] Re: Anyone using SunXCD Exceed cranks?

[Kieran J]

I always like your drivetrain pics, Ron. I usually stare at them for a bit 
:-)

KJ


On Wednesday, January 6, 2016 at 6:09:38 PM UTC-5, Ron Mc wrote:
>
> After I broke a well-used T/A left side crank arm, I ended up buying a Sun 
> XCD crank from Japan, for a wheelset and fender rebuild.  
> The new chainline was also a bit better, mostly because it better fit the 
> JIS tapers on my SKF bb (which I think was at least part of the reason the 
> older TA cracked).  
> Got a very good price, but maybe only $15 less than Jitsensha's price 
> (after paying a broker charge).  
> I have a few thousand miles on it since then.  Fits a cyclotouriste 
> chainring assy perfectly.  It has flare on the crank arms, which the TA 
> doesn't, but I actually prefer the wider stance.  
>
>
> 
>   
>
> Not the stock spindle bolt covers in this photo, but titanium that was on 
> ebay for awhile.   
>
>
> On Wednesday, January 6, 2016 at 2:57:58 PM UTC-6, Jack Doran wrote:
>>
>> They are as beautiful as the venerable TA Cyclotouriste cranks with a low 
>> q factor but at half the price. They're also compatible with Specialites 
>> rings, which is nice for the sake of gearing versatility. None of these 
>> point to their performance. Have any of you folks tried them or do you know 
>> anyone who has? There is quite a bit online about Suntour bringing them out 
>> a few years ago but I can't find any reviews. 
>>
>> http://somafab.blogspot.com/2013/03/sun-xcd-cranks-and-hubs.html
>>
>

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[RBW] Re: Anyone using SunXCD Exceed cranks?

[Jack Doran]

Thanks for your response, Ron. Glad to hear some feedback on them. And that 
set up looks awfully pretty! I was wondering about the exact q factor since 
i couldn't find anything about it online, but it's good to know that 
they're at least somewhat wider than TA. Just out of curiosity, what was 
the issue with your TA's going on JIS tapers?

On Wednesday, January 6, 2016 at 3:09:38 PM UTC-8, Ron Mc wrote:
>
> After I broke a well-used T/A left side crank arm, I ended up buying a Sun 
> XCD crank from Japan, for a wheelset and fender rebuild.  
> The new chainline was also a bit better, mostly because it better fit the 
> JIS tapers on my SKF bb (which I think was at least part of the reason the 
> older TA cracked).  
> Got a very good price, but maybe only $15 less than Jitsensha's price 
> (after paying a broker charge).  
> I have a few thousand miles on it since then.  Fits a cyclotouriste 
> chainring assy perfectly.  It has flare on the crank arms, which the TA 
> doesn't, but I actually prefer the wider stance.  
>
>
> 
>   
>
> Not the stock spindle bolt covers in this photo, but titanium that was on 
> ebay for awhile.   
>
>
> On Wednesday, January 6, 2016 at 2:57:58 PM UTC-6, Jack Doran wrote:
>>
>> They are as beautiful as the venerable TA Cyclotouriste cranks with a low 
>> q factor but at half the price. They're also compatible with Specialites 
>> rings, which is nice for the sake of gearing versatility. None of these 
>> point to their performance. Have any of you folks tried them or do you know 
>> anyone who has? There is quite a bit online about Suntour bringing them out 
>> a few years ago but I can't find any reviews. 
>>
>> http://somafab.blogspot.com/2013/03/sun-xcd-cranks-and-hubs.html
>>
>

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[RBW] Re: Anyone using SunXCD Exceed cranks?

[Ron Mc]

I think Peter's dead on, it may have not seated deeply enough, and I maybe 
contact stresses were too high. 



or it may have just been seated too many times on too many tapers.  I 
didn't know the age of it, it was a used ebay purchase. It broke leaving a 
stoplight downtown, and we were only a mile from a frankenbike meet, so I 
bought $5 LS crank arm to get home.  

I also see Jan's point, but it never quite looked right on the SKF JIS 
tapers.  Both my XCD and XD cranks seat a lot better on them.  


Thanks for your comments.  I was running an Ultra-6 before, and with the 
wheel swap cold-set the rear and went to a Winner wide 7, also went from 
27" Paselas to 700c Strada Biancas.  

The resulting gearset is really sweet, and has become my benchmark for the 
hills where I live.  The half-steps overlap at 70", which is not a bad 
place to have an overlap.It would be a little better with a 47T big 
ring, but they're hen's teeth

.  
2661.5 %429.5 %463221.935.438.828.0 %2528.145.449.719.0 %2133.454.059.116.7 
%1839.063.069.012.5 %1643.970.977.614.3 %1450.181.088.716.7 %1258.594.5103.5

The Q is much smaller than Sugino XD on my other bike.  The flare on 170mm 
crank arms is about 1 cm at the pedals.  For BB I'm running a 121 SKF with 
a 4mm spacer on the drive side, and the chainline, pedal spread and 
symmetry couldn't possibly be better.  The bailout ring sits right over the 
bb spacer, about 5mm closer to the frame than the bailout gear on my XD 
crank (different bike).  Pretty sure the flare is there so it will fit most 
any modern frame.  

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[RBW] Re: Anyone using SunXCD Exceed cranks?

[Ron Mc]

ps, 48T on the gear chart was right out, it overlapped on 4 gears.  

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[RBW] Re: Anyone using SunXCD Exceed cranks?

[Peter Adler]

Obviously, Ron's answer (when/if he supplies one) will trump mine, but:

Since the TA Pro V was an ISO crank (in all its generations, AFAIK), and 
the end of the ISO taper is smaller than JIS, a JIS spindle sits several 
millimeters (approximately 4.5mm) shallower in the crankarm spindle hole 
than an ISO spinlde would. Not only does this mean that there's less 
spindle-to-crank surface area in contact, but it may also put a stress 
riser in a place where the crank manufacturer didn't expect it. Combined 
with an older crank that's gotten knocked around, and the potential for 
cracking is higher; maybe not enough to freak out about, but higher than it 
would be with a similar ISO spindle/BB.

Peter "has run ISO 50.4 cranks on JIS spindles for years without incident, 
knock plastic wood" Adler
Berkeley, CA/USA

On Wednesday, January 6, 2016 at 4:47:25 PM UTC-8, Jack Doran wrote:
>
> Just out of curiosity, what was the issue with your TA's going on JIS 
> tapers?
>

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[RBW] Re: Anyone using SunXCD Exceed cranks?

[Jan Heine]

It's a common misunderstanding that TA cranks use ISO threads, when in fact 
at least the older ones are JIS. The reason is simple: The Japanese copied 
the Stronglight/Herse/TA taper and then made it their JIS standard. So the 
JIS taper could also be called "French taper".

The ISO standard is based on Campy's cranks, which also are a copy of 
Stronglight/Herse, but they got it slightly "wrong" (or at least 
different), which is why the ISO standard is slightly different. (Most 
people seem to assume that ISO is European and JIS Japanese, so TA and 
others should be ISO. Not so.)

The two tapers are so similar that the tolerances actually overlap. I have 
seen Campy spindles that were closer to JIS than to ISO... It's similar 
with pedal threads, where metric and BSC are so similar that TA used to 
offer just one set of pedals for both threads.

So back to the original question, using a JIS spindle for a TA "Pro 5 vis" 
crank should not cause any problems. More likely than not, it is the 
correct spindle for this crank.

Jan Heine
Compass Bicycles Ltd.
www.compasscycle.com

On Thursday, January 7, 2016 at 10:38:11 AM UTC+9, Peter Adler wrote:
>
> Since the TA Pro V was an ISO crank (in all its generations, AFAIK)
>

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