Re: [RBW] Re: Grant Petersen Interview up on the Gravel & Grind website

[Patrick Moore]

On Fri, Jul 28, 2017 at 5:52 PM, 'Chris Lampe 2' via RBW Owners Bunch <
rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com> wrote:
[Snippo]:  I have to have my body at a certain angle that allows my core
muscles to best support my weight, instead of my hands.

I find this to be very true.

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Re: [RBW] Re: Grant Petersen Interview up on the Gravel & Grind website

['Chris Lampe 2' via RBW Owners Bunch]

At one time I was also guilty of putting my seat way forward but I tried it 
Grant's way and now I always push it all the way back.   I haven't yet been 
able to make closer handlebars work.  I always ran them that way and I 
always had issues with hand numbness and pain.  It was only thru an 
impulsive trial-and-error adjustment that I discovered further away 
handlebars were far, far more comfortable.  Someone here mentioned back 
angle and I think that's what it boils down to for me to be comfortable.  I 
have to have my body at a certain angle that allows my core muscles to best 
support my weight, instead of my hands.  I found that a 60cm ETT with a 
long'ish (110mm) stem gets me in a good position.  Like you, I've found 
that very small adjustments make a large difference in both comfort and 
handling.



On Friday, July 28, 2017 at 5:23:38 PM UTC-5, Patrick Moore wrote:
>
> Chris and Mitch: Thanks; at least plausible explanations. As I said 
> elsewhere, in experimenting with setting up the bar for the Matthews over 
> the last year, I've gradually lowered the bar by a total of about 2 inches, 
> and extended the stem by 1 cm. (The last 9 mm reduction in height was by 
> swapping out the 9 cm 90* stem for a 9 cm 6* stem flipped negative; this 
> because I'd earlier removed the last spacer from above the headset. And 
> flipping the 6* stem downward extends the bar forward by 2 more mm, in 
> addition to reducing its height.)
>
> Long windup as usual. Let us proceed: Compared to my Benchmark Riv Roads, 
> the Matthews feels vague in that crucial transition from straight to turn, 
> at lower speeds on pavement. It still felt this way even as I lowered the 
> bar. But this last reduction seems to have pushed a handling button; the 
> last 9 mm seems to have made more difference in this turn-in than the 
> previous 3 cm. At any rate, this lowering made the hoods feel more natural, 
> keeps the hooks very usable, and (hoods position) seems at least to make 
> turn-in feel a bit more planted.
>
> Of course, with such variables as tires -- width, pressure, tread -- who 
> can possibly parse all the element affecting all the other variables in my 
> peculiar body relationship with this particular bike; but --- again, very 
> longwinded windup: I can well believe that more weight over bar leads to a 
> better "planted" feel in "turn-in."
>
> 'Nother anecdote, not wholly unrelated to all this: my first highish end 
> road bike, 1990, was a '89 Falcon, 531 C, all Sante, which had a design 
> that I read was a trend in the '70s or so: very short front-center (very 
> little daylight between 19 mm Turbo and bottom of down tube), and long 
> stays. I messed up the handling by setting up the saddle and bar all wrong: 
> saddle so high I needed mtb seatpost; saddle all, and I mean all, the way 
> forward on the rails, so much so that I needed blue Loctite to keep it from 
> tilting *forward* under my then svelte weight; 135 or 140 mm stem full 6 
> inches below saddle -- you had to experience fast, swoopy downhills with 
> gusty sidewinds! 
>
> But I expect that this design would have handled delightfully with a 
> Grantian setup: he told me, get your bar up and back, and your saddle back 
> and down, and it worked for other bikes. But I'd sold the Falcon.
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Grant Petersen Interview up on the Gravel & Grind website

[Patrick Moore]

Chris and Mitch: Thanks; at least plausible explanations. As I said
elsewhere, in experimenting with setting up the bar for the Matthews over
the last year, I've gradually lowered the bar by a total of about 2 inches,
and extended the stem by 1 cm. (The last 9 mm reduction in height was by
swapping out the 9 cm 90* stem for a 9 cm 6* stem flipped negative; this
because I'd earlier removed the last spacer from above the headset. And
flipping the 6* stem downward extends the bar forward by 2 more mm, in
addition to reducing its height.)

Long windup as usual. Let us proceed: Compared to my Benchmark Riv Roads,
the Matthews feels vague in that crucial transition from straight to turn,
at lower speeds on pavement. It still felt this way even as I lowered the
bar. But this last reduction seems to have pushed a handling button; the
last 9 mm seems to have made more difference in this turn-in than the
previous 3 cm. At any rate, this lowering made the hoods feel more natural,
keeps the hooks very usable, and (hoods position) seems at least to make
turn-in feel a bit more planted.

Of course, with such variables as tires -- width, pressure, tread -- who
can possibly parse all the element affecting all the other variables in my
peculiar body relationship with this particular bike; but --- again, very
longwinded windup: I can well believe that more weight over bar leads to a
better "planted" feel in "turn-in."

'Nother anecdote, not wholly unrelated to all this: my first highish end
road bike, 1990, was a '89 Falcon, 531 C, all Sante, which had a design
that I read was a trend in the '70s or so: very short front-center (very
little daylight between 19 mm Turbo and bottom of down tube), and long
stays. I messed up the handling by setting up the saddle and bar all wrong:
saddle so high I needed mtb seatpost; saddle all, and I mean all, the way
forward on the rails, so much so that I needed blue Loctite to keep it from
tilting *forward* under my then svelte weight; 135 or 140 mm stem full 6
inches below saddle -- you had to experience fast, swoopy downhills with
gusty sidewinds!

But I expect that this design would have handled delightfully with a
Grantian setup: he told me, get your bar up and back, and your saddle back
and down, and it worked for other bikes. But I'd sold the Falcon.

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Re: [RBW] Re: Grant Petersen Interview up on the Gravel & Grind website

[Jay Connolly]

Yeah, it's probably meaningless. Maybe it's just that my own bike balance has 
improved over the years.

Jay

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Re: [RBW] Re: Grant Petersen Interview up on the Gravel & Grind website

[Tim Butterfield]

I'm not sure that test is valid.  I am unable to ride my AHH for more than
a few seconds without my hands on the bars.  But, I suspect that is more me
being unbalanced than the bike.

Tim

On Fri, Jul 28, 2017 at 12:59 PM, Brewster Fong  wrote:

>
>
> On Friday, July 28, 2017 at 12:16:47 PM UTC-7, Jay Connolly wrote:
>>
>> I was intrigued by this number, as well. I heard an interview with Grant
>> somewhere in which he expressed reluctance to excite the hostile, loveless
>> bike-frame geometers of the interwebs, and I don't blame him. I've owned 15
>> or more steel bikes in the last 20 years, and only on the Rivs have I been
>> able, effortlessly, to ride no hands. I take that as a sign of balance and
>> stability in the bike. I could do it briefly on various other frames, but
>> nothing like the Rivs. Maybe it's meaningless, but I find it both useful
>> and pleasant on long rides.
>
>
> That's interesting.  Is riding no handed "the test" to show that a bike is
> balanced and stabled?  I bought all of my bikes used and have been able to
> ride no handed on each of them - 90s Calfee tetra, 90s Litespeed Classic
> and my newest bike - 2013 Trek Madone. I run 700x25 tires@80psi on all of
> them.  The Trek has the shortest wheelbase and it took some time to get use
> to the handling as it is quicker than the other two bikes. Otherwise, it is
> fine.
>
> Good to know that my bikes are all balance and stable!
>
> Good Luck!
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Grant Petersen Interview up on the Gravel & Grind website

[Brewster Fong]

On Friday, July 28, 2017 at 12:16:47 PM UTC-7, Jay Connolly wrote:
>
> I was intrigued by this number, as well. I heard an interview with Grant 
> somewhere in which he expressed reluctance to excite the hostile, loveless 
> bike-frame geometers of the interwebs, and I don't blame him. I've owned 15 
> or more steel bikes in the last 20 years, and only on the Rivs have I been 
> able, effortlessly, to ride no hands. I take that as a sign of balance and 
> stability in the bike. I could do it briefly on various other frames, but 
> nothing like the Rivs. Maybe it's meaningless, but I find it both useful 
> and pleasant on long rides.


That's interesting.  Is riding no handed "the test" to show that a bike is 
balanced and stabled?  I bought all of my bikes used and have been able to 
ride no handed on each of them - 90s Calfee tetra, 90s Litespeed Classic 
and my newest bike - 2013 Trek Madone. I run 700x25 tires@80psi on all of 
them.  The Trek has the shortest wheelbase and it took some time to get use 
to the handling as it is quicker than the other two bikes. Otherwise, it is 
fine.

Good to know that my bikes are all balance and stable!

Good Luck!  

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Re: [RBW] Re: Grant Petersen Interview up on the Gravel & Grind website

[Jay Connolly]

I was intrigued by this number, as well. I heard an interview with Grant 
somewhere in which he expressed reluctance to excite the hostile, loveless 
bike-frame geometers of the interwebs, and I don't blame him. I've owned 15 or 
more steel bikes in the last 20 years, and only on the Rivs have I been able, 
effortlessly, to ride no hands. I take that as a sign of balance and stability 
in the bike. I could do it briefly on various other frames, but nothing like 
the Rivs. Maybe it's meaningless, but I find it both useful and pleasant on 
long rides.

Jay

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Re: [RBW] Re: Grant Petersen Interview up on the Gravel & Grind website

['Chris Lampe 2' via RBW Owners Bunch]

That's a nice explanation that is more specific than my general thoughts 
along those lines.  

I have a 1984 Trek 830 ATB that handles like a dream and it has long 
chainstays, a low bb and what I consider a short F-C (580mm ett).  I found 
that  to get comfortable on the bike, I needed a low angle (7 degree, I 
think) 120mm stem but that threw the handling all off and I didn't even 
like riding the bike.  I switched to a higher angle, 110mm stem and it 
handles like a dream but I'm not comfortable due to the shortened distance 
to the handlebars.  

OTOH, my Karate Monkey has a 600mm ETT and with a 17 degree, 100mm stem, 
it's quite comfortable but the steering isn't very intuitive.  I switched 
to a very high angle, 110mm stem (equivalent to a 7 degree, 85mm stem) and 
it now handles like a dream but is slightly less comfortable than it was, 
again, due to a shortened distance to the handlebars.  

Overall, both bikes are dialed in on the handling and both are less 
comfortable than they could be, but the KM is the better compromise between 
the two so I ride it more often.  Both bikes are set up so that the 
handlebar obscures the front hub.  I don't know if that's just a 
coincidence, or if there really is something to that almost universal 
recommendation. 
On Friday, July 28, 2017 at 12:36:49 PM UTC-5, Mitch Harris wrote:
>
>
>
> On Friday, July 28, 2017 at 10:51:12 AM UTC-6, Patrick Moore wrote:
>>
>> I'd be *very* interested to learn more about this, and how it relates to 
>> f-c, trail, hta, tires, and so forth. Anyone?
>>
>
>
> Keeping the right balance of weight on the front wheel helps with that 
> nice turn-in you describe. It can be a challenge with any bike intended for 
> fendered use by people who don't like toe overlap, where designers are 
> trying to maximize front-center to keep toes out of fenders. That can be 
> mitigated a little in a low trail bike because an extra 20mm fork offset 
> puts the wheel further away. But in general low trail designs have longer 
> front-center than some, if only because of more fork offset. Mtbs 
> got elongated front-centers for endo-prevention from the late 90s 
> on--Fischer called it Genesis Geometry. Plus there's been a decades long 
> trend of preference for short chainstays. All this tends to take weight off 
> the front wheel (in the last instance of mtbs that was intended). Add to 
> that the front-end-lightening general trend for high handlebars in the RBW, 
> 600B, iBob world, and you can lose that nice front-weighted turn-in feel. 
> Long chainstays move weight back forward to the front end, all else equal, 
> and you see that in Riv models. Perhaps Grant has found a way to make a 
> bike intended for high bars, fenders, and no toe-overlap that nevertheless 
> keeps weight on the front wheel (by balancing a short as possible 
> front-center with long chainstays and low bb) for that planted feel 
> with responsive turn initiation. 
>
> --Mitch 
>
>
> (non-Riv) low trail designs because extra fork offset can put the wheel 
> 20mm further out there (a lot). 
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Grant Petersen Interview up on the Gravel & Grind website

[Mitch Harris]

On Friday, July 28, 2017 at 10:51:12 AM UTC-6, Patrick Moore wrote:
>
> I'd be *very* interested to learn more about this, and how it relates to 
> f-c, trail, hta, tires, and so forth. Anyone?
>


Keeping the right balance of weight on the front wheel helps with that nice 
turn-in you describe. It can be a challenge with any bike intended for 
fendered use by people who don't like toe overlap, where designers are 
trying to maximize front-center to keep toes out of fenders. That can be 
mitigated a little in a low trail bike because an extra 20mm fork offset 
puts the wheel further away. But in general low trail designs have longer 
front-center than some, if only because of more fork offset. Mtbs 
got elongated front-centers for endo-prevention from the late 90s 
on--Fischer called it Genesis Geometry. Plus there's been a decades long 
trend of preference for short chainstays. All this tends to take weight off 
the front wheel (in the last instance of mtbs that was intended). Add to 
that the front-end-lightening general trend for high handlebars in the RBW, 
600B, iBob world, and you can lose that nice front-weighted turn-in feel. 
Long chainstays move weight back forward to the front end, all else equal, 
and you see that in Riv models. Perhaps Grant has found a way to make a 
bike intended for high bars, fenders, and no toe-overlap that nevertheless 
keeps weight on the front wheel (by balancing a short as possible 
front-center with long chainstays and low bb) for that planted feel 
with responsive turn initiation. 

--Mitch 


(non-Riv) low trail designs because extra fork offset can put the wheel 
20mm further out there (a lot). 

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Re: [RBW] Re: Grant Petersen Interview up on the Gravel & Grind website

['Chris Lampe 2' via RBW Owners Bunch]

The only thing I can think of is weight distribution.  To me, lower 
handlbars (ie, more weight on the front wheel) feels better than higher 
handlebars (less weight on front wheel).  It's always a balancing act 
between handling and comfort.  I hope there is some secret that will give 
me both! 



On Friday, July 28, 2017 at 11:51:12 AM UTC-5, Patrick Moore wrote:
>
> I'd be *very* interested to learn more about this, and how it relates to 
> f-c, trail, hta, tires, and so forth. Anyone?
>
> On Fri, Jul 28, 2017 at 10:04 AM, 'Chris Lampe 2' via RBW Owners Bunch <
> rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com > wrote:
>
>> [Snippo ...]
>> 3)  Grant has made a similar comment on handlebar height affecting 
>> handling but he would not elaborate on the specifics. 
>>
>>
>>
>>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Grant Petersen Interview up on the Gravel & Grind website

[Patrick Moore]

I'd be *very* interested to learn more about this, and how it relates to
f-c, trail, hta, tires, and so forth. Anyone?

On Fri, Jul 28, 2017 at 10:04 AM, 'Chris Lampe 2' via RBW Owners Bunch <
rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com> wrote:

> [Snippo ...]
> 3)  Grant has made a similar comment on handlebar height affecting
> handling but he would not elaborate on the specifics.
>
>
>
>

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[RBW] Re: Grant Petersen Interview up on the Gravel & Grind website

[drew]

Yeah. Front center is where my mind immediately went. I feel like he's said 
that pretty explicitly at some point, about how front center is more important 
to him than trail. I could very well be misremembering though.

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[RBW] Re: Grant Petersen Interview up on the Gravel & Grind website

['Chris Lampe 2' via RBW Owners Bunch]

Caught my attention as well and I hope it becomes a topic for discussion. 
 Some of my thoughts on what it might be:

1)  Riv geo charts always list a front-center measurement.  I think most 
bike companies don't list this measurement.
2)  I remember Grant referencing a shorter front-end and a longer rear-end 
as being preferable.  
3)  Grant has made a similar comment on handlebar height affecting handling 
but he would not elaborate on the specifics. 



On Thursday, July 27, 2017 at 2:15:21 PM UTC-5, dougP wrote:
>
> That part really caught my attention.  It lends credence to the notion 
> that trail can't be talked about in isolation, but is just one element of 
> the complete design.  Given Grant's refusal to get into the scrum of trail 
> discussions, we'll all just have to keep guessing what the magic parameter 
> is.  Ah, I can hear another thread opening even now.  
>
> dougP
>
> On Thursday, July 27, 2017 at 9:02:19 AM UTC-7, Peter Turskovitch wrote:
>>
>> Grant, from the interview:
>>
>> "Also, there’s another steering/bike handling parameter that probably 
>> matters more, although it’s far less well-known than trail is. Everybody at 
>> Rivendell knows what it is, we have a name for it, and all of our bikes are 
>> designed with it in mind. That’s true whether it’s me designing a new 
>> model, or Will or Roman or Mark working on a limited-run Rosco Bubbe. 
>> Everybody here knows, but I’m not going to say what it is, because it’s 
>> another can of worms, and it’ll attract the meanest mathematicians and 
>> physicists on the internet. Why do that?"
>>
>> What does everybody think he^s talking about here? I think he's referring 
>> to where the rider's center of gravity sits between the hubs, ie "chainstay 
>> length". 
>>
>

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[RBW] Re: Grant Petersen Interview up on the Gravel & Grind website

[dougP]

That part really caught my attention.  It lends credence to the notion that 
trail can't be talked about in isolation, but is just one element of the 
complete design.  Given Grant's refusal to get into the scrum of trail 
discussions, we'll all just have to keep guessing what the magic parameter 
is.  Ah, I can hear another thread opening even now.  

dougP

On Thursday, July 27, 2017 at 9:02:19 AM UTC-7, Peter Turskovitch wrote:
>
> Grant, from the interview:
>
> "Also, there’s another steering/bike handling parameter that probably 
> matters more, although it’s far less well-known than trail is. Everybody at 
> Rivendell knows what it is, we have a name for it, and all of our bikes are 
> designed with it in mind. That’s true whether it’s me designing a new 
> model, or Will or Roman or Mark working on a limited-run Rosco Bubbe. 
> Everybody here knows, but I’m not going to say what it is, because it’s 
> another can of worms, and it’ll attract the meanest mathematicians and 
> physicists on the internet. Why do that?"
>
> What does everybody think he^s talking about here? I think he's referring 
> to where the rider's center of gravity sits between the hubs, ie "chainstay 
> length". 
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Grant Petersen Interview up on the Gravel & Grind website

[Patrick Moore]

Bill L had an idea -- front center; this is another guess. Perhaps it's
both. All I know is that they've discovered a magic elixer of some sort.

And let the meanies bite. Their refutation is in the ride quality.

On Thu, Jul 27, 2017 at 9:59 AM, Peter Turskovitch 
wrote:

> Grant, from the interview:
>
> "Also, there’s another steering/bike handling parameter that probably
> matters more, although it’s far less well-known than trail is. Everybody at
> Rivendell knows what it is, we have a name for it, and all of our bikes are
> designed with it in mind. That’s true whether it’s me designing a new
> model, or Will or Roman or Mark working on a limited-run Rosco Bubbe.
> Everybody here knows, but I’m not going to say what it is, because it’s
> another can of worms, and it’ll attract the meanest mathematicians and
> physicists on the internet. Why do that?"
>
> What does everybody think he^s talking about here? I think he's referring
> to where the rider's center of gravity sits between the hubs, ie "chainstay
> length".
>
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Thanks.*

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[RBW] Re: Grant Petersen Interview up on the Gravel & Grind website

[Peter Turskovitch]

Grant, from the interview:

"Also, there’s another steering/bike handling parameter that probably 
matters more, although it’s far less well-known than trail is. Everybody at 
Rivendell knows what it is, we have a name for it, and all of our bikes are 
designed with it in mind. That’s true whether it’s me designing a new 
model, or Will or Roman or Mark working on a limited-run Rosco Bubbe. 
Everybody here knows, but I’m not going to say what it is, because it’s 
another can of worms, and it’ll attract the meanest mathematicians and 
physicists on the internet. Why do that?"

What does everybody think he^s talking about here? I think he's referring 
to where the rider's center of gravity sits between the hubs, ie "chainstay 
length". 

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[RBW] Re: Grant Petersen Interview up on the Gravel & Grind website

[EasyRider]

Thanks James, I enjoyed it. Will your shop do another Bridgestone/Rivendell 
owners ride this year? I missed last year's.

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[RBW] Re: Grant Petersen Interview up on the Gravel & Grind website

[dougP]

James:

Thanks for the link.  Great interview.  A second piece chronicaling the 
ride would be welcome.  

dougP

On Wednesday, July 26, 2017 at 2:01:00 PM UTC-7, Gravel & Grind Espresso + 
Bikes wrote:
>
> Hey all, 
>
> Candice, our mechanic here at Gravel & Grind, recently went to Riv HQ and 
> spent the day interviewing Grant.  The write up is here:  
> http://gravelandgrind.com/rivendell-grant-petersen/
>
> I know some of you probably saw this on the FB group, but some folks don't 
> read both so here it is again.  
>
> Best,
>
> james
>

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