[RBW] Re: Help! Chain/tire rub problem with my Susie build

[David Wadstrup]

Thanks so much for the continued ideas!

Hi Dareck,

I just read up on redishing wheels -- could be a good solution that lets me 
have may cake and eat it too.

iamkeith,

I'm hoping the chainstays will do exactly what you think they will -- 
minimize the any issues that larger differentials might give rise to.

DSTRONG,

The BB did come with additional spacers, but I wasn't sure I could use 
them.  I followed Shimano's specifications when installing in a 73mm shell, 
but they said nothing else about being able to use more to tweak chainline. 
 Do you know whether this is something people commonly do?

Joe,

I'm using Shimano's XT 10-45 cassette.  Simply not using that gear is the 
easiest solution requiring no alterations or work arounds.  And I'll 
probably be just fine without it.  I think you're right about Grant's 
theory about the rubbing not being such a big deal in practice -- I might 
not even notice it, and shouldn't have any issue as long as I shift prior 
to descending.


Beautiful bike, John!

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[RBW] Re: Help! Chain/tire rub problem with my Susie build

[Joe Bernard]

David, 

What cassette do you have, and what number of teeth on the big ring? If the 
gearing is low enough overall you indeed may be ok with not using the lowest 
gear in the small ring. Although I think Grant's theory is correct: in practice 
the big/small won't rub enough to bother you anyway.  

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[RBW] Re: Help! Chain/tire rub problem with my Susie build

[David Strong]

Bottom Bracket spacers are made for exactly that purpose and wont mess up 
the integrity of the BB as long as you are following the recommended 
configurations. Having an external bb and 2x12 drivetrain might just 
inherently conflict with 2.6" tires on this frame unfortunately. What does 
Riv say is compatible? I wouldnt be surprised if they have a trick to make 
it work

On Thursday, June 25, 2020 at 8:39:33 PM UTC-4, David Wadstrup wrote:
>
> Hello,
>
> I've been building my Susie over the past couple of days, and just 
> discovered I've got an issue with the chain rubbing the rear tire when I'm 
> in the lowest gear.  It's a Shimano 2x12 drivetrain, and seeing as it's not 
> a square taper BB, and has more than 9 speeds, I'm out of my league.  The 
> tire is a 2.6 Teravail.  Does anyone have experience with this kind of 
> problem?  
>
> The only real solution I can think of is to add a 2.5mm spacer to the BB's 
> drive side.  The chain just ever so slightly touches the tire now, and so 
> I'm hoping that moving the chainrings out 2.5mm will be enough to solve the 
> problem.  BUT 
>
> A part of me wonders whether this is advisable.  Will my shifting be 
> compromised due to altering the chainline of the crank?  Will widening the 
> space between the BB's cups harm the BB due to lessening the thread 
> engagement?  Will it harm the cranks for the same reason? Is this solution 
> more of a problem than the rubbing problem? 
>
> What about other solutions?  Does anyone have any advice?  This is driving 
> me crazy, and I'd really love to hear any and all suggestions!
>
> Thank you!
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Help! Chain/tire rub problem with my Susie build

[iamkeith]

A comment on chainline based on my experience with my Clem.  (My susie was one 
with the incorrect fork, so i won't have the opportunity to play with it for a 
while):

The super-long chainstays pretty much negate the normally-important concerns 
related to offset chain line, extra chain wear, or cross-shifting (big 
chainring/big cog or small chainring/small cog).  The angle  is minimized so 
much by the increased length that the chain links aren't really tweaked 
significantly.  This, in my opinion, is one of the best but most un-sung 
benefits of the long stays.

The susies do have marginally shorter stays, but I'm counting on the effect 
being similar.  The  two-piece crank obviously complicates things in this case 
but, if it's possible to move the right crank outward, I'd just do it and not 
worry. 

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Re: [RBW] Re: Help! Chain/tire rub problem with my Susie build

[dgstringfield]

Hi David,

In addition to switching to Boost cranks, you could add 5mm of spacers to
the non drive side of the hub and re-dish the rear wheel.  I think this
would effectively move the tire over about 2.5mm in relation the to crank.
The OLD would go from 135mm to 140 and make reinstalling the wheel a little
harder unless you have the rear triangle coldest to 140mm. However, I’ve
never had issues installing a 135mm wheel in a 130mm spaced frame. Or you
could have a rear wheel built with a tandem hub and have the rear triangle
cold set to 145mm.


Good luck.

Dareck
Hamden, CT

On Sat, Jun 27, 2020 at 9:11 AM David Wadstrup 
wrote:

> Good morning.
>
> Thanks, Kurt.  I I struggled with the 1x vs 2x decision for a long time
> before committing to the 2x.  And I was pretty confident I made the right
> decision until now.  I think you're right, the 1x would solve my problem
>  --  that 1 ring would sit, I think, almost exactly where my current big
> ring now sits.  And I get no chain rub while in the big-big combo.  Not a
> ton of clearance, but it's definitely not touching.  The only problem, and
> this is a huge one, is that I've already bought and mounted all the 2x
> parts -- crankset, cassette, derailer, and even left hand shifter.  These
> would all have to be replaced at great cost, unfortunately.  So, as much as
> I might be wishing I'd gone 1x, I think either a new skinnier tire, or
> simply not using the low-low gear of the 2x makes a lot more sense
> money-wise.  Now, if it turns out that I don't get good shifting with this
> set-up, or if chainsuck becomes and issue, you just might see a bunch a
> lightly used 2x12 XT parts for sale on eBay to fund new 1x stuff.
>
> Glad to hear that you like the Honchos!  Oh, and can you explain what a
> "clutch derailer" is?  I've looked at the differences between Shimano's 12
> speed XT RDs and neither mentions a clutch.  The only difference, as far as
> I can tell, seems to be capacity.  Am I missing something? What is a clutch?
>
>
>
> Thanks, Ryan.  Thank you for the photos.  I agree with everyone else here
> and think you should also send along a couple of the complete bike.  Wow...
> you mean a Bombadil might come up for sale?  That's going to be very
> tempting to many.  Why are you reconsidering your idea for a 1x12 Gus?
> Sounds like it would have been great -- you'd get all the benefits of a 1x
> set-up, plus the ability to run the widest tires these bikes can handle.
> Just curious...
>
>
>
> Thanks, Ed.  You know, that was the first potential solution I thought of,
> and the one which sent me down the path to discovering what in the world
> "Boost" was.  But I ended up quickly discounting it because it
> seemed(wrongly it turns out) that running a Boost crank required also
> running a Boost rear hub.  So, essentially it would move my inner chainring
> outboard by 3mm, correct?  If so, and I just learned this, I don't know
> whether it'd be enough to get the chain to clear the tire.  I just measured
> the chain/tire clearance while in big-big.  It is only 3mm.  But the big
> ring in about 6mm outboard of the inner ring.  So, if moving the ring out
> 6mm gives only 3mm of chain clearance, how much will moving the ring out
> only 3mm, I wonder?  1.5mm?  Less?  This is definitely a preferable
> solution(if it works) to shrinking the tire, so thank you for it!  But my
> one concern is the increased chainline differential.  I currently have 7mm,
> and this would make it 10mm.  Does anyone know what a sound limit is before
> getting sub-optimal shifting performance?  I'd really love to know.
>
>
> Thanks so much to everyone!  This really has been a fun education!
>
>
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> .
>

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[RBW] Re: Help! Chain/tire rub problem with my Susie build

[David Wadstrup]

Good morning.

Thanks, Kurt.  I I struggled with the 1x vs 2x decision for a long time 
before committing to the 2x.  And I was pretty confident I made the right 
decision until now.  I think you're right, the 1x would solve my problem 
 --  that 1 ring would sit, I think, almost exactly where my current big 
ring now sits.  And I get no chain rub while in the big-big combo.  Not a 
ton of clearance, but it's definitely not touching.  The only problem, and 
this is a huge one, is that I've already bought and mounted all the 2x 
parts -- crankset, cassette, derailer, and even left hand shifter.  These 
would all have to be replaced at great cost, unfortunately.  So, as much as 
I might be wishing I'd gone 1x, I think either a new skinnier tire, or 
simply not using the low-low gear of the 2x makes a lot more sense 
money-wise.  Now, if it turns out that I don't get good shifting with this 
set-up, or if chainsuck becomes and issue, you just might see a bunch a 
lightly used 2x12 XT parts for sale on eBay to fund new 1x stuff.

Glad to hear that you like the Honchos!  Oh, and can you explain what a 
"clutch derailer" is?  I've looked at the differences between Shimano's 12 
speed XT RDs and neither mentions a clutch.  The only difference, as far as 
I can tell, seems to be capacity.  Am I missing something? What is a clutch?



Thanks, Ryan.  Thank you for the photos.  I agree with everyone else here 
and think you should also send along a couple of the complete bike.  Wow... 
you mean a Bombadil might come up for sale?  That's going to be very 
tempting to many.  Why are you reconsidering your idea for a 1x12 Gus? 
 Sounds like it would have been great -- you'd get all the benefits of a 1x 
set-up, plus the ability to run the widest tires these bikes can handle. 
 Just curious...



Thanks, Ed.  You know, that was the first potential solution I thought of, 
and the one which sent me down the path to discovering what in the world 
"Boost" was.  But I ended up quickly discounting it because it 
seemed(wrongly it turns out) that running a Boost crank required also 
running a Boost rear hub.  So, essentially it would move my inner chainring 
outboard by 3mm, correct?  If so, and I just learned this, I don't know 
whether it'd be enough to get the chain to clear the tire.  I just measured 
the chain/tire clearance while in big-big.  It is only 3mm.  But the big 
ring in about 6mm outboard of the inner ring.  So, if moving the ring out 
6mm gives only 3mm of chain clearance, how much will moving the ring out 
only 3mm, I wonder?  1.5mm?  Less?  This is definitely a preferable 
solution(if it works) to shrinking the tire, so thank you for it!  But my 
one concern is the increased chainline differential.  I currently have 7mm, 
and this would make it 10mm.  Does anyone know what a sound limit is before 
getting sub-optimal shifting performance?  I'd really love to know.


Thanks so much to everyone!  This really has been a fun education!


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[RBW] Re: Help! Chain/tire rub problem with my Susie build

['Hetchins52' via RBW Owners Bunch]

>
> Hey Ryan,

Thanks for the pictures. (Yes, show us the whole bike!) 
Couple of questions:
What cassette combination did they set you up with for the triple? 11--36?
Do you know what bottom bracket was used? Length? Shimano or Tange or ..?

David Lipsky
Berkeley, CA
(my new MD Susie frameset is currently in repose on the LR couch)

On Friday, June 26, 2020 at 2:49:48 PM UTC-7, Abcyclehank wrote:
>
>  
>
My XL Susie has a SILVER 184 triple (44x34x24 chainrings).  A Shimano XT 
> front derailer, Shimano HG 9 speed rear cassette (CS-HG201-9) and Sunrace 
> R90 rear derailer. 
> Running 29 x 2.8 Teravail Coronado tires w Tubes. 
>
>

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[RBW] Re: Help! Chain/tire rub problem with my Susie build

[Ed Carolipio]

For the OP, if you want to continue experimenting, you can try switching to 
a boost front, which moves the front chainline outboard by +3mm. Depending 
on your current crankset, that may mean a new crankset (expensive) or a new 
set of boost chainrings (not as expensive, but still expensive) that adds 
the boost offset via the chainrings themselves. (Boost cranksets use the 
same bb as their non-boost counterparts.)

I used to have a Krampus Ops with 3.0 Knard tires, 73mm bb shell with 
Hollowtech II equivalent bb, a 135mm rear hub, and short chainstays. I ran 
it 2x10 using the stock Surly OD crankset  
which had a 
51.4mm chainline and didn't experience tire rub. Surly cautioned that, to 
run a 2x front with a plus tire on the Krampus , one *had* to run that 
crankset, and that pre-dates the 148mm boost rear spacing. One caution: a 
12sp cassette and longer chainstays on your Susie moves the chain closer to 
the tire than on the Krampus so that may still not work.

--Ed C.

On Friday, June 26, 2020 at 6:45:40 PM UTC-7 Bill Lindsay wrote:

> Come on Ryan!  The clearance shots are informative, but give us the 
> canonical full profile.  Slap me in the face with a big orange bike!  Sock 
> it to me!
>
> Bill Lindsay
> El Cerrito, CA
>
>
> On Friday, June 26, 2020 at 2:49:48 PM UTC-7, Abcyclehank wrote:
>>
>> David, 
>>
>> As just an average mechanic I decided to let RBW deal with the build on 
>> my Susie.  I also purchased a Gus that I intended to build up as a 1x12 
>> SRAM setup but am now questioning the endeavor.   
>>
>> My XL Susie has a SILVER 184 triple (44x34x24 chainrings).  A Shimano XT 
>> front derailer, Shimano HG 9 speed rear cassette (CS-HG201-9) and Sunrace 
>> R90 rear derailer. 
>> Running 29 x 2.8 Teravail Coronado tires w Tubes. 
>>
>> Following is the clearance available in Small Large with good clearance 
>> on top of chainstay 5-6mm underneath only 2-3mm. 
>>
>> Enjoying and learning so much from others expertise about gearing, 
>> clearance, 73/68bottom brackets etc. 
>>
>> I personally think it would be a shame to ride anything narrower than a 
>> 2.6” tire.  Good combinations will surface and riders Will absolutely love 
>> these bikes.   
>> The arrival of my two new Hillibikes will release 3 bikes back to the 
>> wild.  A 64 Clem L frame and fork, a 64cm Bombadil I never expected to ever 
>> sell, and a 25+LWB Jones with original 135mm rear MTB rear stay distance. 
>>
>> Sincerely, 
>> Ryan Hankinson 
>> West Michigan 
>>
>

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[RBW] Re: Help! Chain/tire rub problem with my Susie build

[Bill Lindsay]

Come on Ryan!  The clearance shots are informative, but give us the 
canonical full profile.  Slap me in the face with a big orange bike!  Sock 
it to me!

Bill Lindsay
El Cerrito, CA

On Friday, June 26, 2020 at 2:49:48 PM UTC-7, Abcyclehank wrote:
>
> David, 
>
> As just an average mechanic I decided to let RBW deal with the build on my 
> Susie.  I also purchased a Gus that I intended to build up as a 1x12 SRAM 
> setup but am now questioning the endeavor.   
>
> My XL Susie has a SILVER 184 triple (44x34x24 chainrings).  A Shimano XT 
> front derailer, Shimano HG 9 speed rear cassette (CS-HG201-9) and Sunrace 
> R90 rear derailer. 
> Running 29 x 2.8 Teravail Coronado tires w Tubes. 
>
> Following is the clearance available in Small Large with good clearance on 
> top of chainstay 5-6mm underneath only 2-3mm. 
>
> Enjoying and learning so much from others expertise about gearing, 
> clearance, 73/68bottom brackets etc. 
>
> I personally think it would be a shame to ride anything narrower than a 
> 2.6” tire.  Good combinations will surface and riders Will absolutely love 
> these bikes.   
> The arrival of my two new Hillibikes will release 3 bikes back to the 
> wild.  A 64 Clem L frame and fork, a 64cm Bombadil I never expected to ever 
> sell, and a 25+LWB Jones with original 135mm rear MTB rear stay distance. 
>
> Sincerely, 
> Ryan Hankinson 
> West Michigan 
>

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[RBW] Re: Help! Chain/tire rub problem with my Susie build

[Jeffrey Arita]

David,

You are most welcome - at least from our perspective for a completely 
different bike and drivetrain and wheelset

I would encourage anyone to try the GD.  If one doesn't have the time to 
tackle the entire route in one go that is completely understandable.  
Consider doing a section.  We met several folks that were on their third or 
fourth seasons as they return again and again to ride the different 
sections.  It is not impossible and as many cyclo-tourists can attest, once 
you are out there, you simply find your rhythm.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xqCYE-Smqf4  

On Friday, June 26, 2020 at 12:48:13 PM UTC-7 David Wadstrup wrote:

>
> Jeff,
>
> Thanks so much for such a detailed explanation!  This really put all the 
> technologies and standards in perspective and helped me wrap my head around 
> everything.  What a experience that ride must have been!  I'm thoroughly 
> jealous.
>
> Best,
>
> David
>

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[RBW] Re: Help! Chain/tire rub problem with my Susie build

[Kurt Manley]

Maybe not the solution you are looking for but if I was in your situation I 
would change to a 1x setup for a bit more clearance. A 135 rear and a 2.6 
is going to be a challenge. A 1x 12 speed can have all the range you'll 
need. You could run a 49mm chainline with a 1x and the ring would be at 
49mm, where your inner ring with your 48 chainline is probably closer to 
44mm right now.

I've also had major issues with chain suck on my 2x setups on long stay 
bikes ridden offroad. 1x would mostly eliminate that since it mostly 
happened while shifting. A clutch RD seems like a major advantage here too. 

I run those exact tires on my bike and it's worth some effort to run them. 

On Friday, June 26, 2020 at 12:48:13 PM UTC-7, David Wadstrup wrote:
>
>
> Jeff,
>
> Thanks so much for such a detailed explanation!  This really put all the 
> technologies and standards in perspective and helped me wrap my head around 
> everything.  What a experience that ride must have been!  I'm thoroughly 
> jealous.
>
> Best,
>
> David
>

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[RBW] Re: Help! Chain/tire rub problem with my Susie build

[David Wadstrup]

Jeff,

Thanks so much for such a detailed explanation!  This really put all the 
technologies and standards in perspective and helped me wrap my head around 
everything.  What a experience that ride must have been!  I'm thoroughly 
jealous.

Best,

David

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[RBW] Re: Help! Chain/tire rub problem with my Susie build

[Jim Whorton]

This conversation is over my head technically, so what I have to contribute 
is more of a confession than a suggestion.  Some weeks ago I posted that I 
was having a similar problem on my Clem, which is totally stock, including 
the tires.  Chain touched rear tire in low-low combination.  Got lots of 
patient advice and some commiseration.  Later I was looking at it on the 
stand again and saw that the chain only dragged on the bottom, going 
towards the rear derailleur.  On the top, going towards the front ring, no 
drag.  So I adjusted the limit screw on the rear derailleur, problem 
solved.  Embarrassing to admit, but I simply had the RD out of adjustment.

Someone told me in that thread that long chainstays = less clearance 
between chain and tire, which did not make sense to me until I finally sat 
down and drew it on paper.  Yep, it's true, clearance is tight but the 
stock Clem is fine when the RD is adjusted right.

I've learned a lot from this group.

Jim


On Thursday, June 25, 2020 at 8:39:33 PM UTC-4, David Wadstrup wrote:
>
> Hello,
>
> I've been building my Susie over the past couple of days, and just 
> discovered I've got an issue with the chain rubbing the rear tire when I'm 
> in the lowest gear.  It's a Shimano 2x12 drivetrain, and seeing as it's not 
> a square taper BB, and has more than 9 speeds, I'm out of my league.  The 
> tire is a 2.6 Teravail.  Does anyone have experience with this kind of 
> problem?  
>
> The only real solution I can think of is to add a 2.5mm spacer to the BB's 
> drive side.  The chain just ever so slightly touches the tire now, and so 
> I'm hoping that moving the chainrings out 2.5mm will be enough to solve the 
> problem.  BUT 
>
> A part of me wonders whether this is advisable.  Will my shifting be 
> compromised due to altering the chainline of the crank?  Will widening the 
> space between the BB's cups harm the BB due to lessening the thread 
> engagement?  Will it harm the cranks for the same reason? Is this solution 
> more of a problem than the rubbing problem? 
>
> What about other solutions?  Does anyone have any advice?  This is driving 
> me crazy, and I'd really love to hear any and all suggestions!
>
> Thank you!
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Help! Chain/tire rub problem with my Susie build

[David Wadstrup]

Also, I'd just like to say generally that I am EXCEPTIONALLY happy with and 
excited about this bike!  The chain issue I was seeking help with has in no 
way altered my appreciation of this unbelievably smart and well made bike. 
 I feel really fortunate to be the proud owner of one and am super grateful 
to Rivendell for making it.  I'm also really grateful to everyone here 
who's helped me expand my amateur bike mechanic skills.  Thank you!

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Re: [RBW] Re: Help! Chain/tire rub problem with my Susie build

[David Wadstrup]

Hi Kim,

I've ridden other long wheelbased Rivs offroad and have never noticed or 
had any kind of problem with the chain flopping around.  And I'm definitely 
not worried about it happening with the Susie.

Thanks for passing the info along!


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Re: [RBW] Re: Help! Chain/tire rub problem with my Susie build

[Joe Bernard]

Hmm, let me see if I can decipher some stuff here. 

1. It sounds like that BB is already using a 2.5mm spacer, my recommendation is 
therefore moot, I don't think adding a second one is going to be safe. 

2. I think Grant's note "2.5 driveside" references that one spacer (not a tire).

3. Grant's note about a little chain rub on the tire not mattering in low gear 
under power is probably accurate, I see chainline stuff in my work stand that 
goes away under the load of a rider pedaling. Just shift up before the descent! 
 

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Re: [RBW] Re: Help! Chain/tire rub problem with my Susie build

[kim young]

Hi David.

I was wondering with the long stays and chain if there isn’t going to be a
lot of chain flop when I go off-road?

I wasn’t planning on going bigger then 2.5 when I ordered, but I had
wondered about chain grab. I  was going to use a shark tooth anyway, just
in case.

—-I had asked about the options if I ever wanted to go wider re: how to
build for that, grant sent me this info:


The standard thing-to-do is to use the 2.5 on drive side. We haven't set up
a ShimanoBranded crank, but the Silver 2pc is made to the same std as
Shimano. We've had 2.Eights Teravail tires with single rings, and Silver
normal triples and the chain barely clears the tire (I've ridden it in low
gear). So a 2.6 should be better. But still, a single ring will have more
clearance.

The thing is, the close chain is a problem only on bumpy downhills, when
you climb in low and forget to shift out of it for the ride down. Then, the
tire tread can brab the chain and pull it down. If there's a
chainwidth-or-less clearance btw tire and chainstay, it can jam up. You
won't skid. because the chain can't lock up the wheel. It'll just make
noise and drag.

BUT the Hillibikes have tons of clearance, even with a 2.8, so the chain
can't get jammed. I haven't pulled a chain below the chainstay, but I bet
it would just pop up and out again. I mean, what else could it do?

——-

from kim in az

On Fri, Jun 26, 2020 at 7:00 AM David Wadstrup 
wrote:

> Oh... two other things of note
>
> 1) my 2.6" Honchos measure 2.55" on Cliffhangers when inflated to 20psi.
>
> 2) regarding that differential... the Susie's beautifully long chainstays
> will help mitigate any issues, I would think and hope.  The longer the
> stays the straighter the chain, right?
>
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[RBW] Re: Help! Chain/tire rub problem with my Susie build

[David Wadstrup]

Oh... two other things of note

1) my 2.6" Honchos measure 2.55" on Cliffhangers when inflated to 20psi.

2) regarding that differential... the Susie's beautifully long chainstays 
will help mitigate any issues, I would think and hope.  The longer the 
stays the straighter the chain, right?

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[RBW] Re: Help! Chain/tire rub problem with my Susie build

[David Wadstrup]

This might be too much information, but for those who are curious, I just 
measured for chainline on the Susie.  Shimano's claim of a 48.8 chainline 
on its 2x12 crank is spot on -- I measured 48.7.  The measurement in back, 
however, turned out to be approx. 41.5.  That's a touch over a 7mm 
differential from front to back.  From what I've gathered on the internet 
just now, a differential in mtb drivetrains is to be expected.  But, I also 
gathered that 7mm isn't a small differential, and that extra wear and noise 
may result(still waiting on my FD before I can install the chain and test 
it out.)  So, it seems moving the chainrings outboard to get the chain 
to clear the tire isn't going to work -- it'll increase the already sizable 
differential.  Looks like a narrower tire is in order.  I'll continue the 
build as is and see how it all works while riding and not just in the 
stand.  Hopefully the rub will either disappear or not be such a big deal. 
 If it doesn't disappear and it does turn out to be an issue, I'll just buy 
a new narrower, 2.4 version of the Honcho and sell the spare 2.6 I'll have. 
 That should move the drive-side side of the rear tire inboard about 2.5mm, 
which should be enough.

Anyways, keep the suggestions on fixes coming, and let me know if none of 
this makes any sense.

Thanks again!



On Friday, June 26, 2020 at 8:06:43 AM UTC-4, Garth wrote:
>
>
>   Yeah David I'm with you on a not so wide tire as they have their own 
> quirks as you've found out. I was all set on getting a 2.6 tire for my 
> Susie at first, then realized I'll be riding it on pavement a whole lot 
> more that off so I settled on a Vittoria Mezcal 2.25 as more than good 
> enough for now. Those tires run if anything to spec or larger. 
>
>
>

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[RBW] Re: Help! Chain/tire rub problem with my Susie build

[Garth]

  Yeah David I'm with you on a not so wide tire as they have their own 
quirks as you've found out. I was all set on getting a 2.6 tire for my 
Susie at first, then realized I'll be riding it on pavement a whole lot 
more that off so I settled on a Vittoria Mezcal 2.25 as more than good 
enough for now. Those tires run if anything to spec or larger. 


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[RBW] Re: Help! Chain/tire rub problem with my Susie build

[David Wadstrup]

Good morning.

Thanks, Joe.  I think that's what it's going to come to.  I'd bet it'd be 
ok. I just know know whether it'll move the chainline out far enough, and 
whether it would impact shifting.  Moving the crank out 2.5 will likely 
only buy me about 1.7 or so at the chain/tire point of contact. And I'm 
betting shifting would be impacted.

Thanks, Ed.  I really appreciate you taking the time to look into Shimano's 
specs. Thank you!  The set up you describe is exactly how I have it set up 
now.  I've got one 2.5mm spacer on the drive side and none on the other. 
 I'm wondering... what would putting a second 2.5 spacer on the drive side 
do?  Would it solve the problem or create more problems?  My hunch is it 
would create more problems.

Thanks, Garth.  Swapping a rear cog out for an inboard spacer is a solution 
I read about last night.  I am like you, and don't have a great need for 
that tiny little cog.  But, I'm reluctant to take this course of action. 
 Like most people here, I strive for a degree of simplicity and an 
avoidance of over complication in my bikes.  But with this particular build 
I've decided to embrace whole hog Shimano's current 12 speed, super 
complicated technology.  I figured it'd be interesting, at least.  Because 
of this, I wouldn't be super excited about modifying their parts and 
loosing a cog to make something work that doesn't work.  I think I'd 
rather(though very reluctantly) just choose a narrower rear tire.  But I 
sincerely do appreciate the suggestion and hope to hear more.

I can't thank you all enough!


>
>
>

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[RBW] Re: Help! Chain/tire rub problem with my Susie build

[Garth]

David, Of course I don't know your specific cassette or ring combo or 
anything about what gears you ride.

That said, As an option to widening your front chainrings, which only 
increases the chain angle and friction, you can lessen your cassette cog 
number by one. If like me, you have no use for a 11 or 12 tooth small cog, 
take it off, measure it's width, and place a spacer of that width not where 
it used to be, but in the last position, nearest the spokes where your 
largest cog would be. Torque down the cassette as usual. A serrated cog is 
not necessary, proper torque is. Off the top of my head I believe I used a 
3.5mm spacer. Familiarize yourself with how many turns it takes a lockring 
to bottom out without a cassette, it's depth. That helps to ensure the 
cassette is snug without bottoming out the lockring. 





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[RBW] Re: Help! Chain/tire rub problem with my Susie build

[Ed Carolipio]

On the 73mm bb shell, only one 2.5mm spacer should be installed on the 
drive side. The non-drive side should just be flush with the shell - see 
page 11: 

https://si.shimano.com/pdfs/dm/DM-TRFC001-01-ENG.pdf 

(The 1.8mm in the diagram is for bb-mounted bracket, hence the 0.7mm spacer 
to make up the 2.5mm gap.) Hope that fixes the problem.

--Ed C.

On Thursday, June 25, 2020 at 5:39:33 PM UTC-7 David Wadstrup wrote:

> Hello,
>
> I've been building my Susie over the past couple of days, and just 
> discovered I've got an issue with the chain rubbing the rear tire when I'm 
> in the lowest gear.  It's a Shimano 2x12 drivetrain, and seeing as it's not 
> a square taper BB, and has more than 9 speeds, I'm out of my league.  The 
> tire is a 2.6 Teravail.  Does anyone have experience with this kind of 
> problem?  
>
> The only real solution I can think of is to add a 2.5mm spacer to the BB's 
> drive side.  The chain just ever so slightly touches the tire now, and so 
> I'm hoping that moving the chainrings out 2.5mm will be enough to solve the 
> problem.  BUT 
>
> A part of me wonders whether this is advisable.  Will my shifting be 
> compromised due to altering the chainline of the crank?  Will widening the 
> space between the BB's cups harm the BB due to lessening the thread 
> engagement?  Will it harm the cranks for the same reason? Is this solution 
> more of a problem than the rubbing problem? 
>
> What about other solutions?  Does anyone have any advice?  This is driving 
> me crazy, and I'd really love to hear any and all suggestions!
>
> Thank you!
>

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[RBW] Re: Help! Chain/tire rub problem with my Susie build

[Joe Bernard]

My experience with outboard bearings is limited but that's probably going to be 
a widespread situation on this board s...

I would say put the spacer on and screw that baby in there and see how much 
thread it looks like you engaged. You'll know if it seems like it's got a 
pretty good purchase or dangling off the end. In my limited opinion! 

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[RBW] Re: Help! Chain/tire rub problem with my Susie build

[David Wadstrup]

Thanks, aeroperf,

Yes, Hollowtech II. The BB and crank are definitely both mountain — a part of 
their XT lineup. And the Susie’s shell is actually 73mm. Apparently, the XT 
cranks give a 48.8 chainline. 

Extra shims were included with the BB, but I figured they were there for the 
use with a 68 shell. What do you think... would adding one to the drive side 
have any negative repurcussions? 

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[RBW] Re: Help! Chain/tire rub problem with my Susie build

[David Wadstrup]

Thanks, Mark,

Yes, you’re right, they’re the 2.6 Honchos. Dropping down a size in the 
back(2.4?) will probably be the easiest, most effective solution.  It’s not 
something I really want to do, though, so I’m going to hold out for another 
fixe that might present itself.  

I’ll keep you posted as it sounds like you might come up against the same. 

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[RBW] Re: Help! Chain/tire rub problem with my Susie build

[aeroperf]

You say it’s not square taper.  Is it Hollowtech II?  In that case, you may 
have a road bike BB/crank where a mountain BB/crank might be required.
Rivs tend to come with a 68mm bottom bracket shell (the road standard), but 
have a 135mm rear dropout width (an older mountain bike standard).  The 
chainline is not 45mm as specified for “road”, but 47.5mm.  So inner rings 
on a road crank tend to be close to the frame.  With square taper BB you 
buy a slightly wider bottom bracket.  With Hollowtech II you get a mountain 
BB and adjust the left/right position with shims.  The front cranks come in 
two specific widths, so you have to run a mountain crank with a mountain BB.

I ride a Sam, so I’m not familiar with the Suzie.  But with a derailleur 
shifting system, “chainline” is a flexible concept.  Try to find out the 
distance from the bike’s center to between gears 6 & 7 of your rear 
cluster, and adjust the front to that.

After that, rubbing means your tires may be too big.  Hope this helps.

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[RBW] Re: Help! Chain/tire rub problem with my Susie build

[Mark Roland]

Sorry to hear you are having this problem. I had heard that running the 
full 2.8" tire can cause this, but bummed to hear it with the 2.6, which I 
was hoping would let me avoid the issue (also planning on 
Teravail--Honchos?).

I can't really give specific advice, but I will be following this thread, 
as I plan to run a triple up front, 8 speed cassette. I guess we'll see, 
but would be nice  if the prototypes could be tweaked to avoid this, if the 
bike is advertised for 2.8" tires. I do think with the modern 9-10-11 speed 
skinny and flexible chains, dead nuts chainline is not so much of an issue. 
Maybe I'll do 8 of 10 and leave some spacers on the high end--would get the 
flexy chain with that solution too. People do seem to worry about q factor, 
which will take a small hit with your various solutions. 

On Thursday, June 25, 2020 at 8:39:33 PM UTC-4, David Wadstrup wrote:
>
> Hello,
>
> I've been building my Susie over the past couple of days, and just 
> discovered I've got an issue with the chain rubbing the rear tire when I'm 
> in the lowest gear.  It's a Shimano 2x12 drivetrain, and seeing as it's not 
> a square taper BB, and has more than 9 speeds, I'm out of my league.  The 
> tire is a 2.6 Teravail.  Does anyone have experience with this kind of 
> problem?  
>
> The only real solution I can think of is to add a 2.5mm spacer to the BB's 
> drive side.  The chain just ever so slightly touches the tire now, and so 
> I'm hoping that moving the chainrings out 2.5mm will be enough to solve the 
> problem.  BUT 
>
> A part of me wonders whether this is advisable.  Will my shifting be 
> compromised due to altering the chainline of the crank?  Will widening the 
> space between the BB's cups harm the BB due to lessening the thread 
> engagement?  Will it harm the cranks for the same reason? Is this solution 
> more of a problem than the rubbing problem? 
>
> What about other solutions?  Does anyone have any advice?  This is driving 
> me crazy, and I'd really love to hear any and all suggestions!
>
> Thank you!
>

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