Re: [RBW] Re: Let's talk about the All Rounder

[Joe Bernard]

Ok maybe I'm thinking that Starck worked at match before building Rivs. 
Beats me, there's a Joe Starck interview in a Reader that would explain 
stuff. 

On Thursday, March 30, 2023 at 1:32:09 PM UTC-7 Doug Van Cleve wrote:

> Match was definitely after Joe Starck, my recollection is they were 
> brought online primarily because Joe could not keep up. While I was waiting 
> for my bike, so around ‘99, the match announcement was made. I think match 
> was making the relatively stock ones and Joe was making the more custom 
> ones. Mine is standard geometry, but custom tube selection, and I requested 
> that Joe make it if possible…
>
> Regards, Doug
>
> P.S.  I seem to recall that the match made bikes were brass brazed, the 
> first time for Rivendell frames, IIRC.
>
>
> On Wed, Mar 29, 2023 at 8:19 PM Joe Bernard  wrote:
>
>> Very strange. My memory is match was first - I think Starck was there at 
>> some point? - then he built on his own and for a while it was split between 
>> Starck and Curt Goodrich, then it was just Curt. 
>>
>> Also this and that and the other thing happened, but I won't go over 
>> those old memories 
>>
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Let's talk about the All Rounder

[Doug Van Cleve]

Match was definitely after Joe Starck, my recollection is they were brought
online primarily because Joe could not keep up. While I was waiting for my
bike, so around ‘99, the match announcement was made. I think match was
making the relatively stock ones and Joe was making the more custom ones.
Mine is standard geometry, but custom tube selection, and I requested that
Joe make it if possible…

Regards, Doug

P.S.  I seem to recall that the match made bikes were brass brazed, the
first time for Rivendell frames, IIRC.


On Wed, Mar 29, 2023 at 8:19 PM Joe Bernard  wrote:

> Very strange. My memory is match was first - I think Starck was there at
> some point? - then he built on his own and for a while it was split between
> Starck and Curt Goodrich, then it was just Curt.
>
> Also this and that and the other thing happened, but I won't go over those
> old memories 
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Let's talk about the All Rounder

[Joe Bernard]

Very strange. My memory is match was first - I think Starck was there at 
some point? - then he built on his own and for a while it was split between 
Starck and Curt Goodrich, then it was just Curt. 

Also this and that and the other thing happened, but I won't go over those 
old memories 

On Wednesday, March 29, 2023 at 8:02:03 PM UTC-7 Robert Tilley wrote:

> That’s strange. I received my All Rounder in June 2001 and it was a Starck 
> build. He built it with 130 spacing in the rear rather than the 135 I 
> specified so I had to take it back to him to fix it. He was local here and 
> worked in the same building as Joe Bell. I still think about Joe Bell’s 
> shop with all of the Riv and Sach’s  frames hanging on the walls…
>
> Robert Tilley
> San Diego, CA
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On Mar 29, 2023, at 9:06 AM, EverRed  wrote:
>
> I ordered my AR in 1998 and got it in 1999.  Between ordering it and 
> receiving it the maker changed from Joe Stark to Match.  GP wrote me a 
> letter asking if it was okay to change.  I wanted to stay with Joe but 
> since it wasn’t possible I accepted Match.
>
>
>
> Mine is a 59 with 26 inch wheels but I think I would have preferred larger 
> wheels for aesthetic reasons.
>
> When I got it I was disappointed with the plain lugs (like on Plumber’s 
> red AR above) but I ended up liking them better than the fancier lugs.  I 
> think the simpler lugs were more in keeping with how I used it - touring 
> and about town being the majority of my riding.
>
> It was also supposed to fit a front rack - Riv supplied but I don’t 
> remember which one - but it did not.  They sent me a replacement fork but 
> the paint didn’t match so I ended up sending the rack and the replacement 
> fork back.  I bought a Bruce Gordon lowrider from someone on the BOB list 
> and that fit.
>
> My only real complaint is that there is no provision for a fender 
> attachment at the chain stay bridge.  I came up with a workable solution 
> but it would have been nice to have a straightforward attachment point. 
>  Soon after I got it GP wrote an article about how cool it was to attach 
> fenders with wire ties and I’ve always wondered if that was because of the 
> missing chain stay attachment point.
>
> The frame is a little noodly when fully loaded but in a good way - I like 
> the way it feels.  I have found that it shimmies when I use a handlebar bag 
> although this might be because of a longish stem.  Having said that, the 
> handlebars are level with the seat.
>
> I still ride and enjoy it regularly but I have no experience of later Rivs 
> so can’t offer a comparison.  I’ve used Mustache, Noodle, Randoneur and 
> Porteur bars over the years.  The Porteurs are on it currently, I like the 
> upright position but the ends are too close so I’ll be making another 
> change sometime soon.
>
> I’ve recently got a purpose built touring bike (Rodriguez Phinney Ridge) 
> but I doubt if I’ll ever get rid of the AR.
>
> John
>
> On Monday, March 27, 2023 at 4:31:50 AM UTC-4 divis...@gmail.com wrote:
>
>> Bruce Gordon's mid-fork mounts are intended for Bruce's lowrider front 
>> rack, and for nothing else >:-P
>>
>> I built up my late lamented Raleigh International with BG front+rear 
>> racks, and had long intended to have contact points brazed on for them, 
>> along with pivot posts for centerpulls. I even sounded Bruce out once on 
>> whether he'd be willing to do the work ("only if I don't have to mess with 
>> the paint afterwards"). Bruce closed the shop before I got to it, then 
>> died, then I wrecked the Raleigh.
>>
>> Bruce's attachment principles were similar to Grant's. He used 
>> metal+rubber P-clamps for forks without properly located midfork braze-ons 
>> (i.e., any fork he hadn't made), and used the twisted Erector set metal 
>> diving boards to attach the rear rack to the seat stays. I found this 
>> attachment method unacceptably ugly, and replaced the ugly-o P-clamps with 
>> Tubus fork clamps in front (on the Raleigh) and Tubus 
>> turnbuckles+rails+stainless steel seatstay clamps (the Raleigh had no rack 
>> attachment points). Made the thing look far more purpose-built. The one 
>> disadvantage was that the Tubus fork clamps pushed the sides of the rack 
>> out about 5mm from each leg, as they're really intended as attachment 
>> points for Tubus' own front racks. The BG rack sides are further inboard, 
>> to get the weight closer to the centerline.
>>
>> I replaced the Raleigh with a Trek 720, which has midfork braze-ons. I 
>> was upset to discover that the attachment points on Bruce's rack were about 
>> 40mm above the fork's braze-ons, which were probably intended for the old 
>> Blackburn lowrider. I've got the whole mess held on with P-clamps now, but 
>> it ticks me off every time I think about it. Maybe someday I'll move the 
>> canti posts to work as centerpull pivots, and have midfork braze-ons put in 
>> the right location at the same time.
>>
>> The big question is: Why 

Re: [RBW] Re: Let's talk about the All Rounder

[rltilley]

That’s strange. I received my All Rounder in June 2001 and it was a Starck build. He built it with 130 spacing in the rear rather than the 135 I specified so I had to take it back to him to fix it. He was local here and worked in the same building as Joe Bell. I still think about Joe Bell’s shop with all of the Riv and Sach’s  frames hanging on the walls…Robert TilleySan Diego, CASent from my iPhoneOn Mar 29, 2023, at 9:06 AM, EverRed  wrote:I ordered my AR in 1998 and got it in 1999.  Between ordering it and receiving it the maker changed from Joe Stark to Match.  GP wrote me a letter asking if it was okay to change.  I wanted to stay with Joe but since it wasn’t possible I accepted Match.Mine is a 59 with 26 inch wheels but I think I would have preferred larger wheels for aesthetic reasons.When I got it I was disappointed with the plain lugs (like on Plumber’s red AR above) but I ended up liking them better than the fancier lugs.  I think the simpler lugs were more in keeping with how I used it - touring and about town being the majority of my riding.It was also supposed to fit a front rack - Riv supplied but I don’t remember which one - but it did not.  They sent me a replacement fork but the paint didn’t match so I ended up sending the rack and the replacement fork back.  I bought a Bruce Gordon lowrider from someone on the BOB list and that fit.My only real complaint is that there is no provision for a fender attachment at the chain stay bridge.  I came up with a workable solution but it would have been nice to have a straightforward attachment point.  Soon after I got it GP wrote an article about how cool it was to attach fenders with wire ties and I’ve always wondered if that was because of the missing chain stay attachment point.The frame is a little noodly when fully loaded but in a good way - I like the way it feels.  I have found that it shimmies when I use a handlebar bag although this might be because of a longish stem.  Having said that, the handlebars are level with the seat.I still ride and enjoy it regularly but I have no experience of later Rivs so can’t offer a comparison.  I’ve used Mustache, Noodle, Randoneur and Porteur bars over the years.  The Porteurs are on it currently, I like the upright position but the ends are too close so I’ll be making another change sometime soon.I’ve recently got a purpose built touring bike (Rodriguez Phinney Ridge) but I doubt if I’ll ever get rid of the AR.JohnOn Monday, March 27, 2023 at 4:31:50 AM UTC-4 divis...@gmail.com wrote:Bruce Gordon's mid-fork mounts are intended for Bruce's lowrider front rack, and for nothing else >:-PI built up my late lamented Raleigh International with BG front+rear racks, and had long intended to have contact points brazed on for them, along with pivot posts for centerpulls. I even sounded Bruce out once on whether he'd be willing to do the work ("only if I don't have to mess with the paint afterwards"). Bruce closed the shop before I got to it, then died, then I wrecked the Raleigh.Bruce's attachment principles were similar to Grant's. He used metal+rubber P-clamps for forks without properly located midfork braze-ons (i.e., any fork he hadn't made), and used the twisted Erector set metal diving boards to attach the rear rack to the seat stays. I found this attachment method unacceptably ugly, and replaced the ugly-o P-clamps with Tubus fork clamps in front (on the Raleigh) and Tubus turnbuckles+rails+stainless steel seatstay clamps (the Raleigh had no rack attachment points). Made the thing look far more purpose-built. The one disadvantage was that the Tubus fork clamps pushed the sides of the rack out about 5mm from each leg, as they're really intended as attachment points for Tubus' own front racks. The BG rack sides are further inboard, to get the weight closer to the centerline.I replaced the Raleigh with a Trek 720, which has midfork braze-ons. I was upset to discover that the attachment points on Bruce's rack were about 40mm above the fork's braze-ons, which were probably intended for the old Blackburn lowrider. I've got the whole mess held on with P-clamps now, but it ticks me off every time I think about it. Maybe someday I'll move the canti posts to work as centerpull pivots, and have midfork braze-ons put in the right location at the same time.The big question is: Why aren't more racks made like the Mark's rack and the Nitto UD-1/UD-2 from Rene Herse? There have to be more people trying to retrofit racks to older frames with idiosyncratic attachment points. I've bought four different handlebar bag racks trying to fit the center brake hole-to-canti post on the Trek (sized for 27"). None of them work, because they're all designed for 700c.Peter "arrrgh" AdlerBerkeley, CA/USAOn Thursday, March 23, 2023 at 5:29:03 AM UTC-7 Steven Sweedler wrote:I wonder when Nitto introduced the flexible strut mounts (Mark’s rack) vs. the rigid struts of the rack on Robert  Tilleys AR. The 700 c AR that I had came with the same 

Re: [RBW] Re: Let's talk about the All Rounder

[iamkeith]

Great first-hand info, John.  I'd love to see a photo of your bike.  From 
replies in this thread, and the timing they relay, I'm kind of starting to 
wonder if I don't have the last Joe Starck AR frame.  I missed the drama at 
the time but hope he's doing well.

On Wednesday, March 29, 2023 at 10:06:35 AM UTC-6 EverRed wrote:

> I ordered my AR in 1998 and got it in 1999.  Between ordering it and 
> receiving it the maker changed from Joe Stark to Match.  GP wrote me a 
> letter asking if it was okay to change.  I wanted to stay with Joe but 
> since it wasn’t possible I accepted Match.
>
> Mine is a 59 with 26 inch wheels but I think I would have preferred larger 
> wheels for aesthetic reasons.
>
> When I got it I was disappointed with the plain lugs (like on Plumber’s 
> red AR above) but I ended up liking them better than the fancier lugs.  I 
> think the simpler lugs were more in keeping with how I used it - touring 
> and about town being the majority of my riding.
>
> It was also supposed to fit a front rack - Riv supplied but I don’t 
> remember which one - but it did not.  They sent me a replacement fork but 
> the paint didn’t match so I ended up sending the rack and the replacement 
> fork back.  I bought a Bruce Gordon lowrider from someone on the BOB list 
> and that fit.
>
> My only real complaint is that there is no provision for a fender 
> attachment at the chain stay bridge.  I came up with a workable solution 
> but it would have been nice to have a straightforward attachment point. 
>  Soon after I got it GP wrote an article about how cool it was to attach 
> fenders with wire ties and I’ve always wondered if that was because of the 
> missing chain stay attachment point.
>
> The frame is a little noodly when fully loaded but in a good way - I like 
> the way it feels.  I have found that it shimmies when I use a handlebar bag 
> although this might be because of a longish stem.  Having said that, the 
> handlebars are level with the seat.
>
> I still ride and enjoy it regularly but I have no experience of later Rivs 
> so can’t offer a comparison.  I’ve used Mustache, Noodle, Randoneur and 
> Porteur bars over the years.  The Porteurs are on it currently, I like the 
> upright position but the ends are too close so I’ll be making another 
> change sometime soon.
>
> I’ve recently got a purpose built touring bike (Rodriguez Phinney Ridge) 
> but I doubt if I’ll ever get rid of the AR.
>
> John
>
> On Monday, March 27, 2023 at 4:31:50 AM UTC-4 divis...@gmail.com wrote:
>
>> Bruce Gordon's mid-fork mounts are intended for Bruce's lowrider front 
>> rack, and for nothing else >:-P
>>
>> I built up my late lamented Raleigh International with BG front+rear 
>> racks, and had long intended to have contact points brazed on for them, 
>> along with pivot posts for centerpulls. I even sounded Bruce out once on 
>> whether he'd be willing to do the work ("only if I don't have to mess with 
>> the paint afterwards"). Bruce closed the shop before I got to it, then 
>> died, then I wrecked the Raleigh.
>>
>> Bruce's attachment principles were similar to Grant's. He used 
>> metal+rubber P-clamps for forks without properly located midfork braze-ons 
>> (i.e., any fork he hadn't made), and used the twisted Erector set metal 
>> diving boards to attach the rear rack to the seat stays. I found this 
>> attachment method unacceptably ugly, and replaced the ugly-o P-clamps with 
>> Tubus fork clamps in front (on the Raleigh) and Tubus 
>> turnbuckles+rails+stainless steel seatstay clamps (the Raleigh had no rack 
>> attachment points). Made the thing look far more purpose-built. The one 
>> disadvantage was that the Tubus fork clamps pushed the sides of the rack 
>> out about 5mm from each leg, as they're really intended as attachment 
>> points for Tubus' own front racks. The BG rack sides are further inboard, 
>> to get the weight closer to the centerline.
>>
>> I replaced the Raleigh with a Trek 720, which has midfork braze-ons. I 
>> was upset to discover that the attachment points on Bruce's rack were about 
>> 40mm above the fork's braze-ons, which were probably intended for the old 
>> Blackburn lowrider. I've got the whole mess held on with P-clamps now, but 
>> it ticks me off every time I think about it. Maybe someday I'll move the 
>> canti posts to work as centerpull pivots, and have midfork braze-ons put in 
>> the right location at the same time.
>>
>> The big question is: Why aren't more racks made like the Mark's rack and 
>> the Nitto UD-1/UD-2 from Rene Herse? There have to be more people trying to 
>> retrofit racks to older frames with idiosyncratic attachment points. I've 
>> bought four different handlebar bag racks trying to fit the center brake 
>> hole-to-canti post on the Trek (sized for 27"). None of them work, because 
>> they're all designed for 700c.
>>
>> Peter "arrrgh" Adler
>> Berkeley, CA/USA
>>
>>
>> On Thursday, March 23, 2023 at 5:29:03 AM UTC-7 Steven Sweedler wrote:

Re: [RBW] Re: Let's talk about the All Rounder

[EverRed]

I ordered my AR in 1998 and got it in 1999.  Between ordering it and 
receiving it the maker changed from Joe Stark to Match.  GP wrote me a 
letter asking if it was okay to change.  I wanted to stay with Joe but 
since it wasn’t possible I accepted Match.

Mine is a 59 with 26 inch wheels but I think I would have preferred larger 
wheels for aesthetic reasons.

When I got it I was disappointed with the plain lugs (like on Plumber’s red 
AR above) but I ended up liking them better than the fancier lugs.  I think 
the simpler lugs were more in keeping with how I used it - touring and 
about town being the majority of my riding.

It was also supposed to fit a front rack - Riv supplied but I don’t 
remember which one - but it did not.  They sent me a replacement fork but 
the paint didn’t match so I ended up sending the rack and the replacement 
fork back.  I bought a Bruce Gordon lowrider from someone on the BOB list 
and that fit.

My only real complaint is that there is no provision for a fender 
attachment at the chain stay bridge.  I came up with a workable solution 
but it would have been nice to have a straightforward attachment point. 
 Soon after I got it GP wrote an article about how cool it was to attach 
fenders with wire ties and I’ve always wondered if that was because of the 
missing chain stay attachment point.

The frame is a little noodly when fully loaded but in a good way - I like 
the way it feels.  I have found that it shimmies when I use a handlebar bag 
although this might be because of a longish stem.  Having said that, the 
handlebars are level with the seat.

I still ride and enjoy it regularly but I have no experience of later Rivs 
so can’t offer a comparison.  I’ve used Mustache, Noodle, Randoneur and 
Porteur bars over the years.  The Porteurs are on it currently, I like the 
upright position but the ends are too close so I’ll be making another 
change sometime soon.

I’ve recently got a purpose built touring bike (Rodriguez Phinney Ridge) 
but I doubt if I’ll ever get rid of the AR.

John

On Monday, March 27, 2023 at 4:31:50 AM UTC-4 divis...@gmail.com wrote:

> Bruce Gordon's mid-fork mounts are intended for Bruce's lowrider front 
> rack, and for nothing else >:-P
>
> I built up my late lamented Raleigh International with BG front+rear 
> racks, and had long intended to have contact points brazed on for them, 
> along with pivot posts for centerpulls. I even sounded Bruce out once on 
> whether he'd be willing to do the work ("only if I don't have to mess with 
> the paint afterwards"). Bruce closed the shop before I got to it, then 
> died, then I wrecked the Raleigh.
>
> Bruce's attachment principles were similar to Grant's. He used 
> metal+rubber P-clamps for forks without properly located midfork braze-ons 
> (i.e., any fork he hadn't made), and used the twisted Erector set metal 
> diving boards to attach the rear rack to the seat stays. I found this 
> attachment method unacceptably ugly, and replaced the ugly-o P-clamps with 
> Tubus fork clamps in front (on the Raleigh) and Tubus 
> turnbuckles+rails+stainless steel seatstay clamps (the Raleigh had no rack 
> attachment points). Made the thing look far more purpose-built. The one 
> disadvantage was that the Tubus fork clamps pushed the sides of the rack 
> out about 5mm from each leg, as they're really intended as attachment 
> points for Tubus' own front racks. The BG rack sides are further inboard, 
> to get the weight closer to the centerline.
>
> I replaced the Raleigh with a Trek 720, which has midfork braze-ons. I was 
> upset to discover that the attachment points on Bruce's rack were about 
> 40mm above the fork's braze-ons, which were probably intended for the old 
> Blackburn lowrider. I've got the whole mess held on with P-clamps now, but 
> it ticks me off every time I think about it. Maybe someday I'll move the 
> canti posts to work as centerpull pivots, and have midfork braze-ons put in 
> the right location at the same time.
>
> The big question is: Why aren't more racks made like the Mark's rack and 
> the Nitto UD-1/UD-2 from Rene Herse? There have to be more people trying to 
> retrofit racks to older frames with idiosyncratic attachment points. I've 
> bought four different handlebar bag racks trying to fit the center brake 
> hole-to-canti post on the Trek (sized for 27"). None of them work, because 
> they're all designed for 700c.
>
> Peter "arrrgh" Adler
> Berkeley, CA/USA
>
>
> On Thursday, March 23, 2023 at 5:29:03 AM UTC-7 Steven Sweedler wrote:
>
> I wonder when Nitto introduced the flexible strut mounts (Mark’s rack) vs. 
> the rigid struts of the rack on Robert  Tilleys AR. The 700 c AR that I had 
> came with the same rack as Roberts. Bruce Gordon’s mid rack mounts were not 
> compatible with that Nitto rack.
>
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Let's talk about the All Rounder

[Peter Adler]

Bruce Gordon's mid-fork mounts are intended for Bruce's lowrider front 
rack, and for nothing else >:-P

I built up my late lamented Raleigh International with BG front+rear racks, 
and had long intended to have contact points brazed on for them, along with 
pivot posts for centerpulls. I even sounded Bruce out once on whether he'd 
be willing to do the work ("only if I don't have to mess with the paint 
afterwards"). Bruce closed the shop before I got to it, then died, then I 
wrecked the Raleigh.

Bruce's attachment principles were similar to Grant's. He used metal+rubber 
P-clamps for forks without properly located midfork braze-ons (i.e., any 
fork he hadn't made), and used the twisted Erector set metal diving boards 
to attach the rear rack to the seat stays. I found this attachment method 
unacceptably ugly, and replaced the ugly-o P-clamps with Tubus fork clamps 
in front (on the Raleigh) and Tubus turnbuckles+rails+stainless steel 
seatstay clamps (the Raleigh had no rack attachment points). Made the thing 
look far more purpose-built. The one disadvantage was that the Tubus fork 
clamps pushed the sides of the rack out about 5mm from each leg, as they're 
really intended as attachment points for Tubus' own front racks. The BG 
rack sides are further inboard, to get the weight closer to the centerline.

I replaced the Raleigh with a Trek 720, which has midfork braze-ons. I was 
upset to discover that the attachment points on Bruce's rack were about 
40mm above the fork's braze-ons, which were probably intended for the old 
Blackburn lowrider. I've got the whole mess held on with P-clamps now, but 
it ticks me off every time I think about it. Maybe someday I'll move the 
canti posts to work as centerpull pivots, and have midfork braze-ons put in 
the right location at the same time.

The big question is: Why aren't more racks made like the Mark's rack and 
the Nitto UD-1/UD-2 from Rene Herse? There have to be more people trying to 
retrofit racks to older frames with idiosyncratic attachment points. I've 
bought four different handlebar bag racks trying to fit the center brake 
hole-to-canti post on the Trek (sized for 27"). None of them work, because 
they're all designed for 700c.

Peter "arrrgh" Adler
Berkeley, CA/USA

On Thursday, March 23, 2023 at 5:29:03 AM UTC-7 Steven Sweedler wrote:

I wonder when Nitto introduced the flexible strut mounts (Mark’s rack) vs. 
the rigid struts of the rack on Robert  Tilleys AR. The 700 c AR that I had 
came with the same rack as Roberts. Bruce Gordon’s mid rack mounts were not 
compatible with that Nitto rack.

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Re: [RBW] Re: Let's talk about the All Rounder

[Joe Bernard]

I wouldn't put too much stock in the date on the fork; the lugs, "speared" 
Rivendell decal and horizontal dropouts point to that frame being a 
pre-2000s All Rounder or possibly a Mountain..it's gorgeous! Clearances had 
widened by the time of your Atlantis. 

On Sunday, March 26, 2023 at 8:33:14 PM UTC-7 Lucky wrote:

> Pretty bike, interesting that the Super Yummys are snug, I have them on my 
> 2004 Atlantis and they fit great. For whatever reason I assumed the AR 
> would be more roomy. 
>
> On Mar 26, 2023, at 18:46, vernon brooks  wrote:
>
> I have been working on building up a recently purchased what I believe to 
> be AR frame. I don't know much aside from it belonged to a guy in the St 
> Louis area that had passed away. There is a date written in permanent 
> marker (4/30/2004) on the fork in permIt marker and a partly visible serial 
> number that is under the plastic cable guide on the lower part of the 
> bottom bracket lug. The paint is very nice for a nearly 20 year old frame 
> but thats what you get with a JB paint job. It has been fun sorting through 
> parts I mostly had already and piecing this one together. Rich from Riv did 
> build up a nice new set of wheels. Typically I put drop bars on my bikes 
> but I decided to try something a little different this time. I'll include a 
> picture of the current setup I am running. The 26X2.22 tires are maybe a 
> little too snug but are fun for the trails in my area.
>
>
> Hope you all had a great weekend,
>
> Vern in San Francisco
>
>  
> 
>
>
>
> On Saturday, March 25, 2023 at 10:39:08 AM UTC-7 iamkeith wrote:
>
>> For interest's sake, here's the original order form from when my AR was 
>> built, indicating available and buyer-selected options.  At the time (mid 
>> 1998 originally, but  mid 1999, by the time it was finalized), it looks 
>> like the mid-fork blade braze-ons were called "low-rider" rack mounts.  
>> I've always thought that the nitto campee mini-rack was a Rivendell design, 
>> and may have happened later than this, and been designed to be backward 
>> compatible for older frames that selected this option.  That would explain 
>> why only some older frames don't have them, but most new ones do.
>>
>> On Thursday, March 23, 2023 at 6:49:54 AM UTC-6 James Valiensi wrote:
>>
>>> Hi,
>>> Well that is interesting. I had the impression they hadn’t done the rack 
>>> mounts earlier, from the conversations I had with them when placing my 
>>> order. Perhaps it was a rare request back then. 
>>> Anyways - I am happy the mounts are more or less standard now a days, 
>>> they are so useful!
>>>
>>> That green bike is very nice.
>>>
>>> On Mar 22, 2023, at 5:07 PM, Andrew Letton  wrote:
>>>
>>> My Joe Stark '99 All-Rounder has rack mounts on the fork blades.  
>>> Was it maybe just that Curt had not yet done rack mounts on the fork 
>>> blades for Rivs at that point?
>>> cheers,
>>> Andrew in Sydney
>>>
>>> On Thursday, March 23, 2023 at 11:02:02 AM GMT+11, James Valiensi <
>>> jpval...@gmail.com> wrote: 
>>>
>>>
>>> Hi,
>>> When I ordered my custom Rivendell in 2002 I requested rack mounts on 
>>> the fork blades. They hadn’t done this before. I had to send a drawing 
>>> showing what I wanted. They agreed and Curt Goodrich made my frame. Joe 
>>> Stark was supposed to be my builder, but he went of the reversvation before 
>>> he started on it. I met Curt a few times and I’m super happy with his work. 
>>>
>>> So, front rack mounts were not part of the normal Rivendell catalog 20 
>>> years ago.
>>>
>>> James
>>>
>>> On Mar 10, 2023, at 11:31 AM, m f  wrote:
>>>
>>> Hi - I'm new here! Not sure how many of you saw this on eBay over the 
>>> past few months, but I was able to work with the seller and found a way to 
>>> buy this 2000 All-Rounder (Curt Goodrich). I have a couple updates in mind 
>>> (sweptback handlebar, Brooks saddle), but those will happen with time. 
>>> First step will be new tires and tuning the mechanicals (Dura Ace except 
>>> for crankset) so I can get a ride or two under my belt. If the seller is in 
>>> this group - thanks again for all the help!
>>>
>>> Questions for the group: 
>>> It seems odd to find an All Rounder, or any Riv for that matter, without 
>>> rack mounts on the upper/mid fork blade. Would this have been a special 
>>> request to not have them?
>>> What are the markers that indicate the frame was painted at Joe Bell's 
>>> shop?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> 
>>> On Sunday, March 20, 2022 at 8:09:10 PM UTC-5 Patrick Moore wrote:
>>>
>>> The All Rounder like the XO-1 before it gets a lot of interest and 
>>> praise, but I think that, like the XO-1 that preceeded it, it is an early 
>>> design that has been superseded and bettered by later Grantian bikes, 
>>> starting with the Atlantis and continuing with the Sam Hillborne and 
>>> doubtless the more recent models.
>>>
>>> I say this having owned an XO-1 and having bought a custom Road based on 
>>> the All Rounder, with lighter (753) tubing and slightly more 

Re: [RBW] Re: Let's talk about the All Rounder

[luckyturnip]

Pretty bike, interesting that the Super Yummys are snug, I have them on my 2004 Atlantis and they fit great. For whatever reason I assumed the AR would be more roomy. On Mar 26, 2023, at 18:46, vernon brooks  wrote:I have been working on building up a recently purchased what I believe to be AR frame. I don't know much aside from it belonged to a guy in the St Louis area that had passed away. There is a date written in permanent marker (4/30/2004) on the fork in permIt marker and a partly visible serial number that is under the plastic cable guide on the lower part of the bottom bracket lug. The paint is very nice for a nearly 20 year old frame but thats what you get with a JB paint job. It has been fun sorting through parts I mostly had already and piecing this one together. Rich from Riv did build up a nice new set of wheels. Typically I put drop bars on my bikes but I decided to try something a little different this time. I'll include a picture of the current setup I am running. The 26X2.22 tires are maybe a little too snug but are fun for the trails in my area.Hope you all had a great weekend,Vern in San Francisco On Saturday, March 25, 2023 at 10:39:08 AM UTC-7 iamkeith wrote:For interest's sake, here's the original order form from when my AR was built, indicating available and buyer-selected options.  At the time (mid 1998 originally, but  mid 1999, by the time it was finalized), it looks like the mid-fork blade braze-ons were called "low-rider" rack mounts.  I've always thought that the nitto campee mini-rack was a Rivendell design, and may have happened later than this, and been designed to be backward compatible for older frames that selected this option.  That would explain why only some older frames don't have them, but most new ones do.On Thursday, March 23, 2023 at 6:49:54 AM UTC-6 James Valiensi wrote:Hi,Well that is interesting. I had the impression they hadn’t done the rack mounts earlier, from the conversations I had with them when placing my order. Perhaps it was a rare request back then. Anyways - I am happy the mounts are more or less standard now a days, they are so useful!That green bike is very nice.On Mar 22, 2023, at 5:07 PM, Andrew Letton  wrote:
My Joe Stark '99 All-Rounder has rack mounts on the fork blades.  Was it maybe just that Curt had not yet done rack mounts on the fork blades for Rivs at that point?cheers,Andrew in Sydney





On Thursday, March 23, 2023 at 11:02:02 AM GMT+11, James Valiensi  wrote:



Hi,When I ordered my custom Rivendell in 2002 I requested rack mounts on the fork blades. They hadn’t done this before. I had to send a drawing showing what I wanted. They agreed and Curt Goodrich made my frame. Joe Stark was supposed to be my builder, but he went of the reversvation before he started on it. I met Curt a few times and I’m super happy with his work. So, front rack mounts were not part of the normal Rivendell catalog 20 years ago.JamesOn Mar 10, 2023, at 11:31 AM, m f  wrote:Hi - I'm new here! Not sure how many of you saw this on eBay over the past few months, but I was able to work with the seller and found a way to buy this 2000 All-Rounder (Curt Goodrich). I have a couple updates in mind (sweptback handlebar, Brooks saddle), but those will happen with time. First step will be new tires and tuning the mechanicals (Dura Ace except for crankset) so I can get a ride or two under my belt. If the seller is in this group - thanks again for all the help!Questions for the group: It seems odd to find an All Rounder, or any Riv for that matter, without rack mounts on the upper/mid fork blade. Would this have been a special request to not have them?What are the markers that indicate the frame was painted at Joe Bell's shop?On Sunday, March 20, 2022 at 8:09:10 PM UTC-5 Patrick Moore wrote:The All Rounder like the XO-1 before it gets a lot of interest and praise, but I think that, like the XO-1 that preceeded it, it is an early design that has been superseded and bettered by later Grantian bikes, starting with the Atlantis and continuing with the Sam Hillborne and doubtless the more recent models.I say this having owned an XO-1 and having bought a custom Road based on the All Rounder, with lighter (753) tubing and slightly more upright hta (IIRC). My 1999 and 2003 Road customs, also built for 26" wheels, are better "All Round" both on pavement and in dirt than either XO-1 and the first Road custom, with much longer chainstays, slightly sacker head, and upsloping tts with extended head tubes. I say again that the later Road customs ride better on dirt, particularly sandy surfaces, than the XO-1 and the first gen, AR-based road custom.I think -- but I am open to reasoned rebuttal -- that an Atlantis or Sam Hill would be better for all round riding than either 

[RBW] Re: Let's talk about the All Rounder

[Ted Durant]

As others have mentioned, talking about the All Rounder starts with the 
XO-n bikes from Bridgestone. Grant's daily commute between Walnut Creek and 
Bridgestone was a mix of paved and unpaved roads and trails over some 
pretty large hills.  I would make a strong argument that the XO-n bikes 
were the first production gravel bikes, designed to be equally at home on 
the road and the trails. They hit that mark well, but the original XO-1, 
which I had, didn't have clearance for big enough tires. The second 
version, with cantilever brakes, helped that a fair amount, but the 26" 
tire selection back then wasn't fabulous (and is arguably even worse, 
today). The Rivendell All Rounder marginally improved on the design. 

Fast forward to today, and I would argue that the Sam Hillborne I just got 
is the state-of-the-art All Rounder from Rivendell. I did a couple hundred 
km or riding in my week in LA, much of it road, but one ride quite a lot of 
dirt road and hiking trail. I had no trouble staying in the front group on 
steep, paved climbs, I was perfectly comfortable on flat, headwind slogs, 
and I had a blast on the dirt. Any anxiety I felt descending a narrow 
hiking trail was due to my lack of familiarity with the trail, not the 
bike. Tires are 584-48 Gravel King, imo the right size for my kind of All 
Rounder riding, though on the trail I might have wished for knobs. The 
long-ish chainstays add a lot in terms of handling and comfort. 

Front end geometry is going to be different between the old XO-n / Riv All 
Rounder and current Riv "all rounders", with notably slacker head angles. 
That can mean more wheel flop, which a lot of people don't like, especially 
when carrying weight up front. I found that, on my new Sam, a little weight 
in the handlebar bag isn't a problem and I didn't feel much flop on slow 
climbs on steep dirt. I also found that on curvy descents the Sam was much 
more predictable than, say, my Bleriot which had theoretically a similar 
front end.

So, getting back to Rivendell All Rounders ... I think a lot of their 
appeal is they are viewed as a significant part of what made 
Grant/Bridgestone/Rivendell stand out back in the '90's. They really were a 
unique offering back then. After my aluminum Trek MTB was stolen, I went to 
several bike shops saying, "I want a steel-framed road bike on 26" wheels 
with room for chubby tires for commuting." Finally as I was leaving yet 
another shop the owner said, "Oh, wait, the new Bridgestone catalog just 
arrived and I think they have something like that." I looked at the XO-1 
(in purple, no less!),  handed him my credit card, and I haven't looked 
back. 

And, what a great thread that we get a Tim Zowada sighting! Check out the 
brake lever hoods on that bike, folks. Tim, I think you stick with mustache 
bars just so you can have 4 of those hoods on the bike ;-)

Ted Durant
Milwaukee, WI USA

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[RBW] Re: Let's talk about the All Rounder

[ascpgh]

Sean, I'm biased because I had an XO and was happy with its versatility and 
ability to run tires up to 1.9" but the real test came when I agreed to 
join a group of three others to ride the TransAm in credit card mode in the 
summer of 2002. What you interpret the AR to be depends a lot on what your 
intentions and riding are. Any time you start to ride places, distances or 
terrain differently your outlook will change how you view different bikes.

I didn't need  much baggage for the TransAm but the daily mileage 
(including through Kansas) took the XO well out of its "do-it-all" element 
and my RB-1 stock geometry "close enough" fit was OK for sporty rides less 
than 4-5 hours, not more than that. I was anticipating 6-10 hours riding 
each day.

With my XO and my RB-1 disqualified, I talked to Grant about options. My 
long for my height legs don't fit stock seat tube/ top tube production 
geometries well. He was cool about the Riv Road for my needs and positioned 
the AR as being much refined from but still towards my XO's envelope and 
brought up the in-stock Atlantis as a tour load bike. He agreed that it 
would be a good solution but after the cross country ride I would have a 
bike of a little heavier of tubing than my regular riding made necessary 
and he mentioned a second production model,  the Rambouillet. Both of these 
production models fell between my XO and RB, as well as RBW's AR and Road 
models.

When the Audax-inspired Rambouillet arrived it and the Atlantis covered a 
wide range of cycling. Grant advised saddlebag loading and a Carradice 
Nelson Longflap as about as big as you would want to carry on the 
Rambouillet, the Atlantis obviously more capable of burden. It was intended 
for long rides with light provisioning, frame fixtures telling the story; 
three bottle cages, single (fender) eyelets on front and rear dropouts, no 
rack eyelets on the fork, a pair of inboard threaded rack mounts on the 
seat stays. This lead to some odd combination fender/rear rack long leg 
installations and discussions about P-clamp short leg rear racks. It came 
with 33.3mm tires which fit under fenders, without them tires (advertised 
as) 38mm would fit

I mounted fenders and used a Bagman saddle support for the Nelson Longflap 
and headed west across the country. At times I was carried more than 
advised and handling suffered a bit but overall it was so great of a ride 
with that loading that I rode it for twenty years and in some different 
circumstances before I had enough observations of shortcomings I 
incorporated specifically in a custom that accurately addressed them, 
namely more tire, more balanced distribution of F-R weight of loaded 
bike+rider, and access to bag while riding. 

In April of 2012 a group of RBW owners met in Cumberland, MD to ride the 
GAP. Warm sunny weather that Friday but a N'orEaster was threatening the 
coast, many possible weather permutations and overnighting in Confluence, 
PA motivated me to carry more on the Rambouillet so I added a small 
rando-style front bag supported by a TA front rack with P-clamps. The front 
load enhanced the bike's inherent wheel flop, a product of HTA + offset and 
overweighting of the steering. Folks can do any outfitting they want to any 
bike and suffer what doesn't work too well if utility (or fashion) 
outweighs the intrinsic goodness of a bike's basic handling. You can start 
with any old $100 used bike from Marketplace, Craigslist or the 'Bay if 
utter utility outweighs handling.

When imagining the grail, idealization of its perfection glorifies it and 
motivates its quest but that leads to disappointment when the realized 
thing doesn't live up to its objectification. You have to begin with 
parameters to avoid rationalizations once you have it in hand. I built a 
mountain bike that way and in the time it took me to  collect, save and 
toil to build it, suspension evolution rendered its hardtail frame second 
tier on the trail, no matter how much effort and skill were applied. OEM 
box bikes were better on the trail in the hands of riders much more novice 
than me. It almost fully funded my Rambouillet when I sold it.

Andy Cheatham
Pittsburgh


On Thursday, March 17, 2022 at 9:50:18 AM UTC-4 Sean Steinle wrote:

> I apologize if this has already been discussed, but I honestly can't find 
> much about the All Rounder, in the way of ride reports, reviews, etc. It 
> seems to be a Holy Grail bike for several, and I'm curious, is it simply 
> the fact that they're rare and hard to find now, or is there truly 
> something special about it? 
>
> I remember Grant talking about the old Bridgestones in an article I came 
> across, and his sentiment was essentially 'They're fine bikes, but they 
> don't stack up against Rivs'. At least part of his reasoning was that he'd 
> continued to refine with Rivendell, and the improvements were drastic 
> enough that he felt the Rivs were in a different league. This makes me 
> wonder if Grant would 

[RBW] Re: Let's talk about the All Rounder

[Ryan]

Classic! Do post when you're done. I'd love to see pictures of your X0-1 
too, if you care to share

Coleman Green? My 1997 A/R - waterford-built was painted Sherwood Green 
before Grant started using custom builders...but craftsmanship is 
definitely a few rungs above its X0-1 predecessor and the ride feel is 
plusher than the X0-1

On Thursday, March 23, 2023 at 12:11:58 PM UTC-5 iamkeith wrote:

> I've mentioned numerous times before that my All Rounder somehow remains 
> my go-to bike, no matter how many other road-ish bikes I acquire.   I'm 
> really not entirely sure why, because, analyzing it objectively, it 
> shouldn't be that way.  It really shows me how true it is that: (1) numbers 
> are just numbers and you can't really tell how a bike is going to ride by 
> looking at charts; and (2) you can get used to anything and familiarity 
> probably trumps everything else.  Either that, or there's some voodoo going 
> on.  There are some things that I really DO prefer about the All Rounder. 
> Some random thoughts to explain:
>
> 1.  The AR comes from the era when there there were small, 1cm or 2cm 
> frame size increments, so someone was more likely to get the precise size 
> they needed, with no compromise.  I'm oddly-proportioned so I ALWAYS 
> compromise, but I got lucky with this one.
>
> 2. Despite this, I am a true believer in the newer Rivendell geometries, 
> with slacker headtubes, longer top tubes, longer chainstays.  I just 
> happened to discover Rivendell before all of that happened, and spent a lot 
> of time dialing in my bikes.  It's not worth the incremental improvement to 
> replace them and go through all of that again at this point in my life, so 
> I'm not likely to upgrade.  If I was to start over though, I totally think 
> the the new geometries are better.  But with the current "expanded" sizing 
> increments, I'd also more likely to end up with something that is  either 
> just *perfect* or doesn't fit well at all.
>
> 3.  Related,: with teh benefit of age and wsdom, I now think that sloped 
> top tubes and longer chainstays "look" right.  Classic, level (or 
> almost-level) top tubes and short chainstays, like most of my bikes have - 
> including the All Rounder -  now look silly to me.  They're 
> function-follows-form.   But both are nice in their own way.
>
> 4. Counter-balancing this, I think small-diameter tires on big frame (mine 
> is a 60cm) look really cool.  I know Grant doesn't though.   You have to 
> remember that, when these and the XO-1 were made, 26" wheels were the ONLY 
> way to get fat tires.  I can fit Rat Trap Pass tires or, currently 2..1 
> gravel kings with no problem, but they're a bit tight under fenders.   I 
> have some 1.95 Sim work Homage tires coming from Conway.  Maybe they'll be 
> the goldilox size.
>
> 5.  Nonetheless, I really, really like the way 26" wheels - with a lower 
> gyroscopic center of gravity and less mass to spin up - work on a road 
> bike.  But, aside from Patrick, I might be alone in this.
>
> 6. I like that there is no TCO, which is also a function of the smaller 
> wheel.  The early Atlanitis, which replaced the AR, was known for TCO.  It 
> wouldn't matter as much if the bike was ONLY used on the road, but once I 
> head to a trail where I need to make lots of slow-speed, corrective 
> steering maneuvers, it matters.
>
> 7. The craftsmanship on my AR, by Joe Starck and Joe Bell, is 
> head-and-shoulders above any of my off-the-shelf models.   None of them are 
> bad, of course, but it's a thing of beauty.  Someone would only notice when 
> looking closely though.
>
> 8.  The AR is heavy and stiff by comparison to my Rambouillet, Saluki, 
> XO-1, RB-1 or Hakkalugi, or even some of my mountain bikes tha are set up 
> road-style, but  I don't care in practice.  It's never enough to make me 
> NOT choose the bike.
>
> I'll probably regret this, but I'm just finishing an extensive revamp of 
> my AR.  New cockpit, new bags, new tires. new rear rack.  As case in point, 
> I just wasn't riding my other bikes enough, so I'm trying to make the AR 
> something different in order to encourage me to use those others.   I 
> swapped the moustache for a choco, and will now only have moustache bars on 
> the saluki and XO-1.   I'll post some pictures when done.  In the meantime, 
> here's one I've posted before, of the way it looked until now.
>
>
> On Thursday, March 17, 2022 at 7:50:18 AM UTC-6 Sean Steinle wrote:
>
>> I apologize if this has already been discussed, but I honestly can't find 
>> much about the All Rounder, in the way of ride reports, reviews, etc. It 
>> seems to be a Holy Grail bike for several, and I'm curious, is it simply 
>> the fact that they're rare and hard to find now, or is there truly 
>> something special about it? 
>>
>> I remember Grant talking about the old Bridgestones in an article I came 
>> across, and his sentiment was essentially 'They're fine bikes, but they 
>> don't stack up against Rivs'. At 

Re: [RBW] Re: Let's talk about the All Rounder

[Doug Van Cleve]

Another plus, in 2023, is that most folks looking at pics of that bike
probably assume those are 29er or 27.5 wheels and it belongs to a GIANT ;^)

Doug

On Thu, Mar 23, 2023 at 10:12 AM iamkeith  wrote:

> 4. Counter-balancing this, I think small-diameter tires on big frame (mine
> is a 60cm) look really cool.  I know Grant doesn't though.   You have to
> remember that, when these and the XO-1 were made, 26" wheels were the ONLY
> way to get fat tires.  I can fit Rat Trap Pass tires or, currently 2..1
> gravel kings with no problem, but they're a bit tight under fenders.   I
> have some 1.95 Sim work Homage tires coming from Conway.  Maybe they'll be
> the goldilox size.
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Let's talk about the All Rounder

[Steven Sweedler]

Keith, very nice AR, i’m another who prefers 26” wheels.   Steve

On Thu, Mar 23, 2023 at 1:12 PM iamkeith  wrote:

> I've mentioned numerous times before that my All Rounder somehow remains
> my go-to bike, no matter how many other road-ish bikes I acquire.   I'm
> really not entirely sure why, because, analyzing it objectively, it
> shouldn't be that way.  It really shows me how true it is that: (1) numbers
> are just numbers and you can't really tell how a bike is going to ride by
> looking at charts; and (2) you can get used to anything and familiarity
> probably trumps everything else.  Either that, or there's some voodoo going
> on.  There are some things that I really DO prefer about the All Rounder.
> Some random thoughts to explain:
>
> 1.  The AR comes from the era when there there were small, 1cm or 2cm
> frame size increments, so someone was more likely to get the precise size
> they needed, with no compromise.  I'm oddly-proportioned so I ALWAYS
> compromise, but I got lucky with this one.
>
> 2. Despite this, I am a true believer in the newer Rivendell geometries,
> with slacker headtubes, longer top tubes, longer chainstays.  I just
> happened to discover Rivendell before all of that happened, and spent a lot
> of time dialing in my bikes.  It's not worth the incremental improvement to
> replace them and go through all of that again at this point in my life, so
> I'm not likely to upgrade.  If I was to start over though, I totally think
> the the new geometries are better.  But with the current "expanded" sizing
> increments, I'd also more likely to end up with something that is  either
> just *perfect* or doesn't fit well at all.
>
> 3.  Related,: with teh benefit of age and wsdom, I now think that sloped
> top tubes and longer chainstays "look" right.  Classic, level (or
> almost-level) top tubes and short chainstays, like most of my bikes have -
> including the All Rounder -  now look silly to me.  They're
> function-follows-form.   But both are nice in their own way.
>
> 4. Counter-balancing this, I think small-diameter tires on big frame (mine
> is a 60cm) look really cool.  I know Grant doesn't though.   You have to
> remember that, when these and the XO-1 were made, 26" wheels were the ONLY
> way to get fat tires.  I can fit Rat Trap Pass tires or, currently 2..1
> gravel kings with no problem, but they're a bit tight under fenders.   I
> have some 1.95 Sim work Homage tires coming from Conway.  Maybe they'll be
> the goldilox size.
>
> 5.  Nonetheless, I really, really like the way 26" wheels - with a lower
> gyroscopic center of gravity and less mass to spin up - work on a road
> bike.  But, aside from Patrick, I might be alone in this.
>
> 6. I like that there is no TCO, which is also a function of the smaller
> wheel.  The early Atlanitis, which replaced the AR, was known for TCO.  It
> wouldn't matter as much if the bike was ONLY used on the road, but once I
> head to a trail where I need to make lots of slow-speed, corrective
> steering maneuvers, it matters.
>
> 7. The craftsmanship on my AR, by Joe Starck and Joe Bell, is
> head-and-shoulders above any of my off-the-shelf models.   None of them are
> bad, of course, but it's a thing of beauty.  Someone would only notice when
> looking closely though.
>
> 8.  The AR is heavy and stiff by comparison to my Rambouillet, Saluki,
> XO-1, RB-1 or Hakkalugi, or even some of my mountain bikes tha are set up
> road-style, but  I don't care in practice.  It's never enough to make me
> NOT choose the bike.
>
> I'll probably regret this, but I'm just finishing an extensive revamp of
> my AR.  New cockpit, new bags, new tires. new rear rack.  As case in point,
> I just wasn't riding my other bikes enough, so I'm trying to make the AR
> something different in order to encourage me to use those others.   I
> swapped the moustache for a choco, and will now only have moustache bars on
> the saluki and XO-1.   I'll post some pictures when done.  In the meantime,
> here's one I've posted before, of the way it looked until now.
>
>
> On Thursday, March 17, 2022 at 7:50:18 AM UTC-6 Sean Steinle wrote:
>
>> I apologize if this has already been discussed, but I honestly can't find
>> much about the All Rounder, in the way of ride reports, reviews, etc. It
>> seems to be a Holy Grail bike for several, and I'm curious, is it simply
>> the fact that they're rare and hard to find now, or is there truly
>> something special about it?
>>
>> I remember Grant talking about the old Bridgestones in an article I came
>> across, and his sentiment was essentially 'They're fine bikes, but they
>> don't stack up against Rivs'. At least part of his reasoning was that he'd
>> continued to refine with Rivendell, and the improvements were drastic
>> enough that he felt the Rivs were in a different league. This makes me
>> wonder if Grant would have a similar feeling about the All Rounder. I'd
>> love to hear from those who own/have owned one. What's the verdict, is it

Re: [RBW] Re: Let's talk about the All Rounder

[Doug Van Cleve]

Pretty much what Joe said here, early RBW Waterford/Starck/Goodrich bikes
generally only had seat stay mounts if that.  My '99 Starck RS only has
dropout eyelets.  Very little about the current long chainstay, non-drop
bar offerings relates at all to the early(ish) day designs.  I would say
really the only constant is GP has always been an advocate of high bars...

Doug

On Wed, Mar 22, 2023 at 6:50 PM Joe Bernard  wrote:

> Long wheelbase: I've ridden a bunch of both, they're both good but my
> custom is a longbike cuz it's MAGIC.
>
> What Grant's opinion was 20-25 years ago: has changed on a bunch of stuff.
> The first iteration of Atlantis didn't come with mid-fork mounts, now just
> about everything from the company does. He changed his mind.
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Let's talk about the All Rounder

[James Valiensi]

Hi,
Well that is interesting. I had the impression they hadn’t done the rack mounts 
earlier, from the conversations I had with them when placing my order. Perhaps 
it was a rare request back then. 
Anyways - I am happy the mounts are more or less standard now a days, they are 
so useful!

That green bike is very nice.

> On Mar 22, 2023, at 5:07 PM, Andrew Letton  wrote:
> 
> My Joe Stark '99 All-Rounder has rack mounts on the fork blades.  
> Was it maybe just that Curt had not yet done rack mounts on the fork blades 
> for Rivs at that point?
> cheers,
> Andrew in Sydney
> 
> On Thursday, March 23, 2023 at 11:02:02 AM GMT+11, James Valiensi 
>  wrote:
> 
> 
> Hi,
> When I ordered my custom Rivendell in 2002 I requested rack mounts on the 
> fork blades. They hadn’t done this before. I had to send a drawing showing 
> what I wanted. They agreed and Curt Goodrich made my frame. Joe Stark was 
> supposed to be my builder, but he went of the reversvation before he started 
> on it. I met Curt a few times and I’m super happy with his work. 
> 
> So, front rack mounts were not part of the normal Rivendell catalog 20 years 
> ago.
> 
> James
> 
>> On Mar 10, 2023, at 11:31 AM, m f > > wrote:
>> 
>> Hi - I'm new here! Not sure how many of you saw this on eBay over the past 
>> few months, but I was able to work with the seller and found a way to buy 
>> this 2000 All-Rounder (Curt Goodrich). I have a couple updates in mind 
>> (sweptback handlebar, Brooks saddle), but those will happen with time. First 
>> step will be new tires and tuning the mechanicals (Dura Ace except for 
>> crankset) so I can get a ride or two under my belt. If the seller is in this 
>> group - thanks again for all the help!
>> 
>> Questions for the group: 
>> It seems odd to find an All Rounder, or any Riv for that matter, without 
>> rack mounts on the upper/mid fork blade. Would this have been a special 
>> request to not have them?
>> What are the markers that indicate the frame was painted at Joe Bell's shop?
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> On Sunday, March 20, 2022 at 8:09:10 PM UTC-5 Patrick Moore wrote:
>> The All Rounder like the XO-1 before it gets a lot of interest and praise, 
>> but I think that, like the XO-1 that preceeded it, it is an early design 
>> that has been superseded and bettered by later Grantian bikes, starting with 
>> the Atlantis and continuing with the Sam Hillborne and doubtless the more 
>> recent models.
>> 
>> I say this having owned an XO-1 and having bought a custom Road based on the 
>> All Rounder, with lighter (753) tubing and slightly more upright hta (IIRC). 
>> My 1999 and 2003 Road customs, also built for 26" wheels, are better "All 
>> Round" both on pavement and in dirt than either XO-1 and the first Road 
>> custom, with much longer chainstays, slightly sacker head, and upsloping tts 
>> with extended head tubes. 
>> 
>> I say again that the later Road customs ride better on dirt, particularly 
>> sandy surfaces, than the XO-1 and the first gen, AR-based road custom.
>> 
>> I think -- but I am open to reasoned rebuttal -- that an Atlantis or Sam 
>> Hill would be better for all round riding than either XOs or ARs.
>> 
>> -- 
>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
>> "RBW Owners Bunch" group.
>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an 
>> email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com 
>> .
>> To view this discussion on the web visit 
>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/rbw-owners-bunch/dbd9b3f4-d7aa-474e-8ba6-25b46bbfbe02n%40googlegroups.com
>>  
>> .
>> 
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
> "RBW Owners Bunch" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an 
> email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com 
> .
> To view this discussion on the web visit
> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/rbw-owners-bunch/17A22128-5B1C-4A82-8AE9-4954C2DE769D%40gmail.com
>  
> 
> .
> 
> -- 
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
> "RBW Owners Bunch" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an 
> email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com 
> .
> To view this discussion on the web visit 
> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/rbw-owners-bunch/1009058408.3451691.1679530034999%40mail.yahoo.com
>  
> 

Re: [RBW] Re: Let's talk about the All Rounder

[Steven Sweedler]

I wonder when Nitto introduced the flexible strut mounts (Mark’s rack) vs.
the rigid struts of the rack on Robert  Tilleys AR. The 700 c AR that I had
came with the same rack as Roberts. Bruce Gordon’s mid rack mounts were not
compatible with that Nitto rack. Steve
On Thu, Mar 23, 2023 at 8:22 AM Greg J  wrote:

> My recollection from one of the early Readers was that Grant felt that
> p-clamps worked just fine, and they offered more flexibility.  A big part
> of the Riv philosophy is that these frames can be used for a long time and
> are not encumbered by fashion.  As others have noted, all racks are
> different, and it would be a pain (and a lot more work) to braze-on
> attachment points, only to have them be useless because the rack doesn't
> fit or the style of racks change (e.g., shift from front panniers to
> baskets).  Now, maybe due to customer demand, I think Rivs have many
> braze-ons, so now he is going the opposite direction of having multiple
> sets of braze-ons still in an effort to make them flexible for different
> rack systems.
>
> Also, I think generally, Grant's aesthetic runs more towards the
> utilitarian-DIY-strap things on by wire and straps, rather than the perfect
> fender lines and perfectly-placed braze-ons for custom racks of Jan's rando
> bikes.
>
> On Wednesday, March 22, 2023 at 5:27:19 PM UTC-7 brok...@gmail.com wrote:
>
>> I’d be curious to hear what sort of justification Grant had for claiming
>> that p-clamps were superior to actual mid-fork braze ons. To me, a fixed
>> mounting point seems like a secure no-brainer… less fiddly bits, no
>> unsightly black rubber, and it looks so much cleaner.
>>
>> But then again, it wouldn’t surprise me either way.
>>
>> On Mar 22, 2023, at 8:15 PM, Junes  wrote:
>>
>> 
>>
>> Hi m f, welcome! Congrats on the bike.
>>
>> Regarding your question:
>>
>> It seems odd to find an All Rounder, or any Riv for that matter, without
>> rack mounts on the upper/mid fork blade. Would this have been a special
>> request to not have them?
>>
>>
>> It’s not totally unusual for Rivs, particularly early-ish ones, to have
>> forks devoid of rack mount eyelets. Two of my Rivs don’t have them, one an
>> Atlantis, explicitly positioned as an all-rounder, and one a Glorius.
>> (Incidentally both were Toyo built.) In an early Atlantis brochure, Grant
>> even wrote that a lack of such fork eyelets is better because using clamps
>> to attach rack struts to forks is superior. All recent Rivs have eyelets
>> galore, though.
>>
>> On Mar 22, 2023, at 19:08, Andrew Letton  wrote:
>>
>> 
>> Nice bike!
>> My All-Rounder and Road Standard have Joe Bell paint and both have the JB
>> logo on the left chainstay like this:
>>
>> <1679526443662blob.jpg>
>>
>>
>>
>> cheers,
>> Andrew in Sydney
>>
>>
>>
>> On Thursday, March 23, 2023 at 10:03:03 AM GMT+11, m f <
>> rockthr...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>> Hi - I'm new here! Not sure how many of you saw this on eBay over the
>> past few months, but I was able to work with the seller and found a way to
>> buy this 2000 All-Rounder (Curt Goodrich). I have a couple updates in mind
>> (sweptback handlebar, Brooks saddle), but those will happen with time.
>> First step will be new tires and tuning the mechanicals (Dura Ace except
>> for crankset) so I can get a ride or two under my belt. If the seller is in
>> this group - thanks again for all the help!
>>
>> Questions for the group:
>> It seems odd to find an All Rounder, or any Riv for that matter, without
>> rack mounts on the upper/mid fork blade. Would this have been a special
>> request to not have them?
>> What are the markers that indicate the frame was painted at Joe Bell's
>> shop?
>>
>>
>>
>> 
>> On Sunday, March 20, 2022 at 8:09:10 PM UTC-5 Patrick Moore wrote:
>>
>> The All Rounder like the XO-1 before it gets a lot of interest and
>> praise, but I think that, like the XO-1 that preceeded it, it is an early
>> design that has been superseded and bettered by later Grantian bikes,
>> starting with the Atlantis and continuing with the Sam Hillborne and
>> doubtless the more recent models.
>>
>> I say this having owned an XO-1 and having bought a custom Road based on
>> the All Rounder, with lighter (753) tubing and slightly more upright hta
>> (IIRC). My 1999 and 2003 Road customs, also built for 26" wheels, are
>> better "All Round" both on pavement and in dirt than either XO-1 and the
>> first Road custom, with much longer chainstays, slightly sacker head, and
>> upsloping tts with extended head tubes.
>>
>> I say again that the later Road customs ride better on dirt, particularly
>> sandy surfaces, than the XO-1 and the first gen, AR-based road custom.
>>
>> I think -- but I am open to reasoned rebuttal -- that an Atlantis or Sam
>> Hill would be better for all round riding than either XOs or ARs.
>>
>> --
>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
>> "RBW Owners Bunch" group.
>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails 

Re: [RBW] Re: Let's talk about the All Rounder

[Greg J]

My recollection from one of the early Readers was that Grant felt that 
p-clamps worked just fine, and they didn't lock you into a single type of 
racks/fenders/what have you.  A big part of the Riv philosophy is that 
these frames can be used for a long time and are not encumbered by fashion. 
 As others have noted, all racks are different, and it would be a pain (and 
a lot more work) to braze-on attachment points, only to have them be 
useless because the rack doesn't fit or the style of racks change (e.g., 
shift from front panniers to baskets).  Now, maybe due to customer demand, 
Rivs do have braze-ons, but he has gone the opposite direction of having 
multiple sets of braze-ons still in an effort to make them flexible 
for different rack systems.  

Also, I think generally, Grant's aesthetic runs more towards the 
utilitarian-DIY-strap things on with wires and straps, rather than the 
perfect fender lines and perfectly-placed braze-ons for custom racks of 
Jan's rando bikes.

On Wednesday, March 22, 2023 at 5:27:19 PM UTC-7 brok...@gmail.com wrote:

> I’d be curious to hear what sort of justification Grant had for claiming 
> that p-clamps were superior to actual mid-fork braze ons. To me, a fixed 
> mounting point seems like a secure no-brainer… less fiddly bits, no 
> unsightly black rubber, and it looks so much cleaner.
>
> But then again, it wouldn’t surprise me either way.
>
> On Mar 22, 2023, at 8:15 PM, Junes  wrote:
>
> 
>
> Hi m f, welcome! Congrats on the bike. 
>
> Regarding your question: 
>
> It seems odd to find an All Rounder, or any Riv for that matter, without 
> rack mounts on the upper/mid fork blade. Would this have been a special 
> request to not have them?
>
>
> It’s not totally unusual for Rivs, particularly early-ish ones, to have 
> forks devoid of rack mount eyelets. Two of my Rivs don’t have them, one an 
> Atlantis, explicitly positioned as an all-rounder, and one a Glorius. 
> (Incidentally both were Toyo built.) In an early Atlantis brochure, Grant 
> even wrote that a lack of such fork eyelets is better because using clamps 
> to attach rack struts to forks is superior. All recent Rivs have eyelets 
> galore, though.  
>
> On Mar 22, 2023, at 19:08, Andrew Letton  wrote:
>
> 
> Nice bike!
> My All-Rounder and Road Standard have Joe Bell paint and both have the JB 
> logo on the left chainstay like this:
>
> <1679526443662blob.jpg>
>
>
>
> cheers,
> Andrew in Sydney
>
>
>
> On Thursday, March 23, 2023 at 10:03:03 AM GMT+11, m f <
> rockthr...@gmail.com> wrote: 
>
>
> Hi - I'm new here! Not sure how many of you saw this on eBay over the past 
> few months, but I was able to work with the seller and found a way to buy 
> this 2000 All-Rounder (Curt Goodrich). I have a couple updates in mind 
> (sweptback handlebar, Brooks saddle), but those will happen with time. 
> First step will be new tires and tuning the mechanicals (Dura Ace except 
> for crankset) so I can get a ride or two under my belt. If the seller is in 
> this group - thanks again for all the help!
>
> Questions for the group: 
> It seems odd to find an All Rounder, or any Riv for that matter, without 
> rack mounts on the upper/mid fork blade. Would this have been a special 
> request to not have them?
> What are the markers that indicate the frame was painted at Joe Bell's 
> shop?
>
>
>
> 
> On Sunday, March 20, 2022 at 8:09:10 PM UTC-5 Patrick Moore wrote:
>
> The All Rounder like the XO-1 before it gets a lot of interest and praise, 
> but I think that, like the XO-1 that preceeded it, it is an early design 
> that has been superseded and bettered by later Grantian bikes, starting 
> with the Atlantis and continuing with the Sam Hillborne and doubtless the 
> more recent models.
>
> I say this having owned an XO-1 and having bought a custom Road based on 
> the All Rounder, with lighter (753) tubing and slightly more upright hta 
> (IIRC). My 1999 and 2003 Road customs, also built for 26" wheels, are 
> better "All Round" both on pavement and in dirt than either XO-1 and the 
> first Road custom, with much longer chainstays, slightly sacker head, and 
> upsloping tts with extended head tubes. 
>
> I say again that the later Road customs ride better on dirt, particularly 
> sandy surfaces, than the XO-1 and the first gen, AR-based road custom.
>
> I think -- but I am open to reasoned rebuttal -- that an Atlantis or Sam 
> Hill would be better for all round riding than either XOs or ARs.
>
> -- 
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
> "RBW Owners Bunch" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an 
> email to rbw-owners-bun...@googlegroups.com.
> To view this discussion on the web visit 
>
> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/rbw-owners-bunch/dbd9b3f4-d7aa-474e-8ba6-25b46bbfbe02n%40googlegroups.com
>  
> 

Re: [RBW] Re: Let's talk about the All Rounder

[Greg J]

My recollection from one of the early Readers was that Grant felt that 
p-clamps worked just fine, and they offered more flexibility.  A big part 
of the Riv philosophy is that these frames can be used for a long time and 
are not encumbered by fashion.  As others have noted, all racks are 
different, and it would be a pain (and a lot more work) to braze-on 
attachment points, only to have them be useless because the rack doesn't 
fit or the style of racks change (e.g., shift from front panniers to 
baskets).  Now, maybe due to customer demand, I think Rivs have many 
braze-ons, so now he is going the opposite direction of having multiple 
sets of braze-ons still in an effort to make them flexible for different 
rack systems.  

Also, I think generally, Grant's aesthetic runs more towards the 
utilitarian-DIY-strap things on by wire and straps, rather than the perfect 
fender lines and perfectly-placed braze-ons for custom racks of Jan's rando 
bikes.

On Wednesday, March 22, 2023 at 5:27:19 PM UTC-7 brok...@gmail.com wrote:

> I’d be curious to hear what sort of justification Grant had for claiming 
> that p-clamps were superior to actual mid-fork braze ons. To me, a fixed 
> mounting point seems like a secure no-brainer… less fiddly bits, no 
> unsightly black rubber, and it looks so much cleaner.
>
> But then again, it wouldn’t surprise me either way.
>
> On Mar 22, 2023, at 8:15 PM, Junes  wrote:
>
> 
>
> Hi m f, welcome! Congrats on the bike. 
>
> Regarding your question: 
>
> It seems odd to find an All Rounder, or any Riv for that matter, without 
> rack mounts on the upper/mid fork blade. Would this have been a special 
> request to not have them?
>
>
> It’s not totally unusual for Rivs, particularly early-ish ones, to have 
> forks devoid of rack mount eyelets. Two of my Rivs don’t have them, one an 
> Atlantis, explicitly positioned as an all-rounder, and one a Glorius. 
> (Incidentally both were Toyo built.) In an early Atlantis brochure, Grant 
> even wrote that a lack of such fork eyelets is better because using clamps 
> to attach rack struts to forks is superior. All recent Rivs have eyelets 
> galore, though.  
>
> On Mar 22, 2023, at 19:08, Andrew Letton  wrote:
>
> 
> Nice bike!
> My All-Rounder and Road Standard have Joe Bell paint and both have the JB 
> logo on the left chainstay like this:
>
> <1679526443662blob.jpg>
>
>
>
> cheers,
> Andrew in Sydney
>
>
>
> On Thursday, March 23, 2023 at 10:03:03 AM GMT+11, m f <
> rockthr...@gmail.com> wrote: 
>
>
> Hi - I'm new here! Not sure how many of you saw this on eBay over the past 
> few months, but I was able to work with the seller and found a way to buy 
> this 2000 All-Rounder (Curt Goodrich). I have a couple updates in mind 
> (sweptback handlebar, Brooks saddle), but those will happen with time. 
> First step will be new tires and tuning the mechanicals (Dura Ace except 
> for crankset) so I can get a ride or two under my belt. If the seller is in 
> this group - thanks again for all the help!
>
> Questions for the group: 
> It seems odd to find an All Rounder, or any Riv for that matter, without 
> rack mounts on the upper/mid fork blade. Would this have been a special 
> request to not have them?
> What are the markers that indicate the frame was painted at Joe Bell's 
> shop?
>
>
>
> 
> On Sunday, March 20, 2022 at 8:09:10 PM UTC-5 Patrick Moore wrote:
>
> The All Rounder like the XO-1 before it gets a lot of interest and praise, 
> but I think that, like the XO-1 that preceeded it, it is an early design 
> that has been superseded and bettered by later Grantian bikes, starting 
> with the Atlantis and continuing with the Sam Hillborne and doubtless the 
> more recent models.
>
> I say this having owned an XO-1 and having bought a custom Road based on 
> the All Rounder, with lighter (753) tubing and slightly more upright hta 
> (IIRC). My 1999 and 2003 Road customs, also built for 26" wheels, are 
> better "All Round" both on pavement and in dirt than either XO-1 and the 
> first Road custom, with much longer chainstays, slightly sacker head, and 
> upsloping tts with extended head tubes. 
>
> I say again that the later Road customs ride better on dirt, particularly 
> sandy surfaces, than the XO-1 and the first gen, AR-based road custom.
>
> I think -- but I am open to reasoned rebuttal -- that an Atlantis or Sam 
> Hill would be better for all round riding than either XOs or ARs.
>
> -- 
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
> "RBW Owners Bunch" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an 
> email to rbw-owners-bun...@googlegroups.com.
> To view this discussion on the web visit 
>
> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/rbw-owners-bunch/dbd9b3f4-d7aa-474e-8ba6-25b46bbfbe02n%40googlegroups.com
>  
> 
> .
>
> -- 
> 

Re: [RBW] Re: Let's talk about the All Rounder

[Joe Bernard]

I could see that being a conversation in 2001. By the time I was drawing up 
my custom in 2019 Rivs had been running the Mark's Rack location for so 
long that when I specified "the mid-fork braze-ons" Grant knew what I 
meant. If I'd wanted something different to match traditional low-rider 
racks I would have made sure I was clear about it. 

On Wednesday, March 22, 2023 at 7:53:50 PM UTC-7 Robert Tilley wrote:

> When I ordered my custom Riv I requested mounts for a front rack. Grant 
> stated it was tough to place the braze-ons since each rack has unique 
> attachment points. We settled on a location that works with the Nitto mini 
> rack.  
>
> So maybe Grant feels p-clamps are able to work around various rack 
> mounting positions?
>
> Robert Tilley
> San Diego, CA 
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On Mar 22, 2023, at 5:27 PM, Brian Turner  wrote:
>
> 
>
> I’d be curious to hear what sort of justification Grant had for claiming 
> that p-clamps were superior to actual mid-fork braze ons. To me, a fixed 
> mounting point seems like a secure no-brainer… less fiddly bits, no 
> unsightly black rubber, and it looks so much cleaner.
>
> But then again, it wouldn’t surprise me either way.
>
> On Mar 22, 2023, at 8:15 PM, Junes  wrote:
>
> 
> Hi m f, welcome! Congrats on the bike. 
>
> Regarding your question: 
>
> It seems odd to find an All Rounder, or any Riv for that matter, without 
> rack mounts on the upper/mid fork blade. Would this have been a special 
> request to not have them?
>
>
> It’s not totally unusual for Rivs, particularly early-ish ones, to have 
> forks devoid of rack mount eyelets. Two of my Rivs don’t have them, one an 
> Atlantis, explicitly positioned as an all-rounder, and one a Glorius. 
> (Incidentally both were Toyo built.) In an early Atlantis brochure, Grant 
> even wrote that a lack of such fork eyelets is better because using clamps 
> to attach rack struts to forks is superior. All recent Rivs have eyelets 
> galore, though.  
>
> On Mar 22, 2023, at 19:08, Andrew Letton  wrote:
>
> 
> Nice bike!
> My All-Rounder and Road Standard have Joe Bell paint and both have the JB 
> logo on the left chainstay like this:
>
> <1679526443662blob.jpg>
>
>
>
> cheers,
> Andrew in Sydney
>
>
>
> On Thursday, March 23, 2023 at 10:03:03 AM GMT+11, m f <
> rockthr...@gmail.com> wrote: 
>
>
> Hi - I'm new here! Not sure how many of you saw this on eBay over the past 
> few months, but I was able to work with the seller and found a way to buy 
> this 2000 All-Rounder (Curt Goodrich). I have a couple updates in mind 
> (sweptback handlebar, Brooks saddle), but those will happen with time. 
> First step will be new tires and tuning the mechanicals (Dura Ace except 
> for crankset) so I can get a ride or two under my belt. If the seller is in 
> this group - thanks again for all the help!
>
> Questions for the group: 
> It seems odd to find an All Rounder, or any Riv for that matter, without 
> rack mounts on the upper/mid fork blade. Would this have been a special 
> request to not have them?
> What are the markers that indicate the frame was painted at Joe Bell's 
> shop?
>
>
>
> 
> On Sunday, March 20, 2022 at 8:09:10 PM UTC-5 Patrick Moore wrote:
>
> The All Rounder like the XO-1 before it gets a lot of interest and praise, 
> but I think that, like the XO-1 that preceeded it, it is an early design 
> that has been superseded and bettered by later Grantian bikes, starting 
> with the Atlantis and continuing with the Sam Hillborne and doubtless the 
> more recent models.
>
> I say this having owned an XO-1 and having bought a custom Road based on 
> the All Rounder, with lighter (753) tubing and slightly more upright hta 
> (IIRC). My 1999 and 2003 Road customs, also built for 26" wheels, are 
> better "All Round" both on pavement and in dirt than either XO-1 and the 
> first Road custom, with much longer chainstays, slightly sacker head, and 
> upsloping tts with extended head tubes. 
>
> I say again that the later Road customs ride better on dirt, particularly 
> sandy surfaces, than the XO-1 and the first gen, AR-based road custom.
>
> I think -- but I am open to reasoned rebuttal -- that an Atlantis or Sam 
> Hill would be better for all round riding than either XOs or ARs.
>
> -- 
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
> "RBW Owners Bunch" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an 
> email to rbw-owners-bun...@googlegroups.com.
> To view this discussion on the web visit 
>
> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/rbw-owners-bunch/dbd9b3f4-d7aa-474e-8ba6-25b46bbfbe02n%40googlegroups.com
>  
> 
> .
>
> -- 
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
> "RBW Owners Bunch" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send 

Re: [RBW] Re: Let's talk about the All Rounder

[rltilley]

When I ordered my custom Riv I requested mounts for a front rack. Grant stated it was tough to place the braze-ons since each rack has unique attachment points. We settled on a location that works with the Nitto mini rack.  So maybe Grant feels p-clamps are able to work around various rack mounting positions?Robert TilleySan Diego, CA Sent from my iPhoneOn Mar 22, 2023, at 5:27 PM, Brian Turner  wrote:I’d be curious to hear what sort of justification Grant had for claiming that p-clamps were superior to actual mid-fork braze ons. To me, a fixed mounting point seems like a secure no-brainer… less fiddly bits, no unsightly black rubber, and it looks so much cleaner.But then again, it wouldn’t surprise me either way.On Mar 22, 2023, at 8:15 PM, Junes  wrote:Hi m f, welcome! Congrats on the bike. Regarding your question: It seems odd to find an All Rounder, or any Riv for that matter, without rack mounts on the upper/mid fork blade. Would this have been a special request to not have them?It’s not totally unusual for Rivs, particularly early-ish ones, to have forks devoid of rack mount eyelets. Two of my Rivs don’t have them, one an Atlantis, explicitly positioned as an all-rounder, and one a Glorius. (Incidentally both were Toyo built.) In an early Atlantis brochure, Grant even wrote that a lack of such fork eyelets is better because using clamps to attach rack struts to forks is superior. All recent Rivs have eyelets galore, though.  On Mar 22, 2023, at 19:08, Andrew Letton  wrote:
Nice bike!My All-Rounder and Road Standard have Joe Bell paint and both have the JB logo on the left chainstay like this:<1679526443662blob.jpg>cheers,Andrew in Sydney





On Thursday, March 23, 2023 at 10:03:03 AM GMT+11, m f  wrote:



Hi - I'm new here! Not sure how many of you saw this on eBay over the past few months, but I was able to work with the seller and found a way to buy this 2000 All-Rounder (Curt Goodrich). I have a couple updates in mind (sweptback handlebar, Brooks saddle), but those will happen with time. First step will be new tires and tuning the mechanicals (Dura Ace except for crankset) so I can get a ride or two under my belt. If the seller is in this group - thanks again for all the help!Questions for the group: It seems odd to find an All Rounder, or any Riv for that matter, without rack mounts on the upper/mid fork blade. Would this have been a special request to not have them?What are the markers that indicate the frame was painted at Joe Bell's shop?On Sunday, March 20, 2022 at 8:09:10 PM UTC-5 Patrick Moore wrote:The All Rounder like the XO-1 before it gets a lot of interest and praise, but I think that, like the XO-1 that preceeded it, it is an early design that has been superseded and bettered by later Grantian bikes, starting with the Atlantis and continuing with the Sam Hillborne and doubtless the more recent models.I say this having owned an XO-1 and having bought a custom Road based on the All Rounder, with lighter (753) tubing and slightly more upright hta (IIRC). My 1999 and 2003 Road customs, also built for 26" wheels, are better "All Round" both on pavement and in dirt than either XO-1 and the first Road custom, with much longer chainstays, slightly sacker head, and upsloping tts with extended head tubes. I say again that the later Road customs ride better on dirt, particularly sandy surfaces, than the XO-1 and the first gen, AR-based road custom.I think -- but I am open to reasoned rebuttal -- that an Atlantis or Sam Hill would be better for all round riding than either XOs or ARs.




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[RBW] Re: Let's talk about the All Rounder

[Joe Bernard]

Long wheelbase: I've ridden a bunch of both, they're both good but my 
custom is a longbike cuz it's MAGIC. 

What Grant's opinion was 20-25 years ago: has changed on a bunch of stuff. 
The first iteration of Atlantis didn't come with mid-fork mounts, now just 
about everything from the company does. He changed his mind. 

On Wednesday, March 22, 2023 at 6:24:35 PM UTC-7 R. Alexis wrote:

> Hello all. 
>
> I don't have an All Rounder, but I do have the first generation Waterford 
> built Rivendell Mountain. Those first generation Rivendell Road, Allrounder 
> and Mountain offered several options when ordering. Rack mount placement, 
> Headtube extention, cream painted accent headtube, etc. I remember when 
> ordering and mulling over things asking Grant about getting the bike built 
> with KGB(Koski, Guy, Breezer) hooded drop outs on the frame and rollercam 
> mounts. He gave a had no on the Breezer drop outs, but did offer to do the 
> rollercam brake mounts. I ended up just doing standard canti brakes. 
>
> Although a lot of the features offered on later Rivendells are nice, the 
> more time passes, the more I am less likely to give up my Rivendell 
> Mountain. It is still configured the way I built it originally. I have 
> changed out things, just to change them back. Swapped out the Suntour 
> XC-Pro thumb shifters for XC-Pro Wishbone shifters, then changed back. 
> Changed out the Wilderness Trail Bikes SST saddle for a Brooks B17, then 
> changed back. I did finally swap out the Ritchey CrossBite 1.5 tires for 
> Schwalbe Sammy Slick and changed the Profile Design Kage for a Tallac Duel 
> stainless steel bottle cage.  I have not ridden any current Rivendell 
> offerings. Don't know that I have ridden any other Rivendell offering, 
> other than my Mountain. 
>
> I do have a Bridgestone 1991 MB-0(Zip), 1993 XO-1 and 1994 MB-1. I enjoy 
> riding my MB-1 and XO-1 when I pull them out. 
>
> I am a bit skeptical on the whole long wheelbase iteration that are the 
> new Rivs. That is mostly an issue of being used to a less long wheelbase. 
> Pretty sure they ride fine. 
>
> Thanks,
>
> Reginald Alexis
>
> On Thursday, March 17, 2022 at 8:50:18 AM UTC-5 Sean Steinle wrote:
>
>> I apologize if this has already been discussed, but I honestly can't find 
>> much about the All Rounder, in the way of ride reports, reviews, etc. It 
>> seems to be a Holy Grail bike for several, and I'm curious, is it simply 
>> the fact that they're rare and hard to find now, or is there truly 
>> something special about it? 
>>
>> I remember Grant talking about the old Bridgestones in an article I came 
>> across, and his sentiment was essentially 'They're fine bikes, but they 
>> don't stack up against Rivs'. At least part of his reasoning was that he'd 
>> continued to refine with Rivendell, and the improvements were drastic 
>> enough that he felt the Rivs were in a different league. This makes me 
>> wonder if Grant would have a similar feeling about the All Rounder. I'd 
>> love to hear from those who own/have owned one. What's the verdict, is it 
>> truly one of the best Rivs out there? Worth the price of admission if one 
>> is lucky enough to find one in their size?
>>
>> Thanks for humoring me :)
>> Sean in Kansas
>>
>

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[RBW] Re: Let's talk about the All Rounder

[R. Alexis]

Hello all. 

I don't have an All Rounder, but I do have the first generation Waterford 
built Rivendell Mountain. Those first generation Rivendell Road, Allrounder 
and Mountain offered several options when ordering. Rack mount placement, 
Headtube extention, cream painted accent headtube, etc. I remember when 
ordering and mulling over things asking Grant about getting the bike built 
with KGB(Koski, Guy, Breezer) hooded drop outs on the frame and rollercam 
mounts. He gave a had no on the Breezer drop outs, but did offer to do the 
rollercam brake mounts. I ended up just doing standard canti brakes. 

Although a lot of the features offered on later Rivendells are nice, the 
more time passes, the more I am less likely to give up my Rivendell 
Mountain. It is still configured the way I built it originally. I have 
changed out things, just to change them back. Swapped out the Suntour 
XC-Pro thumb shifters for XC-Pro Wishbone shifters, then changed back. 
Changed out the Wilderness Trail Bikes SST saddle for a Brooks B17, then 
changed back. I did finally swap out the Ritchey CrossBite 1.5 tires for 
Schwalbe Sammy Slick and changed the Profile Design Kage for a Tallac Duel 
stainless steel bottle cage.  I have not ridden any current Rivendell 
offerings. Don't know that I have ridden any other Rivendell offering, 
other than my Mountain. 

I do have a Bridgestone 1991 MB-0(Zip), 1993 XO-1 and 1994 MB-1. I enjoy 
riding my MB-1 and XO-1 when I pull them out. 

I am a bit skeptical on the whole long wheelbase iteration that are the new 
Rivs. That is mostly an issue of being used to a less long wheelbase. 
Pretty sure they ride fine. 

Thanks,

Reginald Alexis

On Thursday, March 17, 2022 at 8:50:18 AM UTC-5 Sean Steinle wrote:

> I apologize if this has already been discussed, but I honestly can't find 
> much about the All Rounder, in the way of ride reports, reviews, etc. It 
> seems to be a Holy Grail bike for several, and I'm curious, is it simply 
> the fact that they're rare and hard to find now, or is there truly 
> something special about it? 
>
> I remember Grant talking about the old Bridgestones in an article I came 
> across, and his sentiment was essentially 'They're fine bikes, but they 
> don't stack up against Rivs'. At least part of his reasoning was that he'd 
> continued to refine with Rivendell, and the improvements were drastic 
> enough that he felt the Rivs were in a different league. This makes me 
> wonder if Grant would have a similar feeling about the All Rounder. I'd 
> love to hear from those who own/have owned one. What's the verdict, is it 
> truly one of the best Rivs out there? Worth the price of admission if one 
> is lucky enough to find one in their size?
>
> Thanks for humoring me :)
> Sean in Kansas
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Let's talk about the All Rounder

[Brian Turner]

I’d be curious to hear what sort of justification Grant had for claiming that p-clamps were superior to actual mid-fork braze ons. To me, a fixed mounting point seems like a secure no-brainer… less fiddly bits, no unsightly black rubber, and it looks so much cleaner.But then again, it wouldn’t surprise me either way.On Mar 22, 2023, at 8:15 PM, Junes  wrote:Hi m f, welcome! Congrats on the bike. Regarding your question: It seems odd to find an All Rounder, or any Riv for that matter, without rack mounts on the upper/mid fork blade. Would this have been a special request to not have them?It’s not totally unusual for Rivs, particularly early-ish ones, to have forks devoid of rack mount eyelets. Two of my Rivs don’t have them, one an Atlantis, explicitly positioned as an all-rounder, and one a Glorius. (Incidentally both were Toyo built.) In an early Atlantis brochure, Grant even wrote that a lack of such fork eyelets is better because using clamps to attach rack struts to forks is superior. All recent Rivs have eyelets galore, though.  On Mar 22, 2023, at 19:08, Andrew Letton  wrote:
Nice bike!My All-Rounder and Road Standard have Joe Bell paint and both have the JB logo on the left chainstay like this:<1679526443662blob.jpg>cheers,Andrew in Sydney





On Thursday, March 23, 2023 at 10:03:03 AM GMT+11, m f  wrote:



Hi - I'm new here! Not sure how many of you saw this on eBay over the past few months, but I was able to work with the seller and found a way to buy this 2000 All-Rounder (Curt Goodrich). I have a couple updates in mind (sweptback handlebar, Brooks saddle), but those will happen with time. First step will be new tires and tuning the mechanicals (Dura Ace except for crankset) so I can get a ride or two under my belt. If the seller is in this group - thanks again for all the help!Questions for the group: It seems odd to find an All Rounder, or any Riv for that matter, without rack mounts on the upper/mid fork blade. Would this have been a special request to not have them?What are the markers that indicate the frame was painted at Joe Bell's shop?On Sunday, March 20, 2022 at 8:09:10 PM UTC-5 Patrick Moore wrote:The All Rounder like the XO-1 before it gets a lot of interest and praise, but I think that, like the XO-1 that preceeded it, it is an early design that has been superseded and bettered by later Grantian bikes, starting with the Atlantis and continuing with the Sam Hillborne and doubtless the more recent models.I say this having owned an XO-1 and having bought a custom Road based on the All Rounder, with lighter (753) tubing and slightly more upright hta (IIRC). My 1999 and 2003 Road customs, also built for 26" wheels, are better "All Round" both on pavement and in dirt than either XO-1 and the first Road custom, with much longer chainstays, slightly sacker head, and upsloping tts with extended head tubes. I say again that the later Road customs ride better on dirt, particularly sandy surfaces, than the XO-1 and the first gen, AR-based road custom.I think -- but I am open to reasoned rebuttal -- that an Atlantis or Sam Hill would be better for all round riding than either XOs or ARs.




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Re: [RBW] Re: Let's talk about the All Rounder

[Junes]

Hi m f, welcome! Congrats on the bike. Regarding your question: It seems odd to find an All Rounder, or any Riv for that matter, without rack mounts on the upper/mid fork blade. Would this have been a special request to not have them?It’s not totally unusual for Rivs, particularly early-ish ones, to have forks devoid of rack mount eyelets. Two of my Rivs don’t have them, one an Atlantis, explicitly positioned as an all-rounder, and one a Glorius. (Incidentally both were Toyo built.) In an early Atlantis brochure, Grant even wrote that a lack of such fork eyelets is better because using clamps to attach rack struts to forks is superior. All recent Rivs have eyelets galore, though.  On Mar 22, 2023, at 19:08, Andrew Letton  wrote:
Nice bike!My All-Rounder and Road Standard have Joe Bell paint and both have the JB logo on the left chainstay like this:<1679526443662blob.jpg>cheers,Andrew in Sydney





On Thursday, March 23, 2023 at 10:03:03 AM GMT+11, m f  wrote:



Hi - I'm new here! Not sure how many of you saw this on eBay over the past few months, but I was able to work with the seller and found a way to buy this 2000 All-Rounder (Curt Goodrich). I have a couple updates in mind (sweptback handlebar, Brooks saddle), but those will happen with time. First step will be new tires and tuning the mechanicals (Dura Ace except for crankset) so I can get a ride or two under my belt. If the seller is in this group - thanks again for all the help!Questions for the group: It seems odd to find an All Rounder, or any Riv for that matter, without rack mounts on the upper/mid fork blade. Would this have been a special request to not have them?What are the markers that indicate the frame was painted at Joe Bell's shop?On Sunday, March 20, 2022 at 8:09:10 PM UTC-5 Patrick Moore wrote:The All Rounder like the XO-1 before it gets a lot of interest and praise, but I think that, like the XO-1 that preceeded it, it is an early design that has been superseded and bettered by later Grantian bikes, starting with the Atlantis and continuing with the Sam Hillborne and doubtless the more recent models.I say this having owned an XO-1 and having bought a custom Road based on the All Rounder, with lighter (753) tubing and slightly more upright hta (IIRC). My 1999 and 2003 Road customs, also built for 26" wheels, are better "All Round" both on pavement and in dirt than either XO-1 and the first Road custom, with much longer chainstays, slightly sacker head, and upsloping tts with extended head tubes. I say again that the later Road customs ride better on dirt, particularly sandy surfaces, than the XO-1 and the first gen, AR-based road custom.I think -- but I am open to reasoned rebuttal -- that an Atlantis or Sam Hill would be better for all round riding than either XOs or ARs.




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Re: [RBW] Re: Let's talk about the All Rounder

[Andrew Letton]

 My Joe Stark '99 All-Rounder has rack mounts on the fork blades.  Was it maybe 
just that Curt had not yet done rack mounts on the fork blades for Rivs at that 
point?cheers,Andrew in Sydney
On Thursday, March 23, 2023 at 11:02:02 AM GMT+11, James Valiensi 
 wrote:  
 
 Hi,When I ordered my custom Rivendell in 2002 I requested rack mounts on the 
fork blades. They hadn’t done this before. I had to send a drawing showing what 
I wanted. They agreed and Curt Goodrich made my frame. Joe Stark was supposed 
to be my builder, but he went of the reversvation before he started on it. I 
met Curt a few times and I’m super happy with his work. 
So, front rack mounts were not part of the normal Rivendell catalog 20 years 
ago.
James


On Mar 10, 2023, at 11:31 AM, m f  wrote:
Hi - I'm new here! Not sure how many of you saw this on eBay over the past few 
months, but I was able to work with the seller and found a way to buy this 2000 
All-Rounder (Curt Goodrich). I have a couple updates in mind (sweptback 
handlebar, Brooks saddle), but those will happen with time. First step will be 
new tires and tuning the mechanicals (Dura Ace except for crankset) so I can 
get a ride or two under my belt. If the seller is in this group - thanks again 
for all the help!
Questions for the group: It seems odd to find an All Rounder, or any Riv for 
that matter, without rack mounts on the upper/mid fork blade. Would this have 
been a special request to not have them?What are the markers that indicate the 
frame was painted at Joe Bell's shop?


On Sunday, March 20, 2022 at 8:09:10 PM UTC-5 Patrick Moore wrote:

The All Rounder like the XO-1 before it gets a lot of interest and praise, but 
I think that, like the XO-1 that preceeded it, it is an early design that has 
been superseded and bettered by later Grantian bikes, starting with the 
Atlantis and continuing with the Sam Hillborne and doubtless the more recent 
models.
I say this having owned an XO-1 and having bought a custom Road based on the 
All Rounder, with lighter (753) tubing and slightly more upright hta (IIRC). My 
1999 and 2003 Road customs, also built for 26" wheels, are better "All Round" 
both on pavement and in dirt than either XO-1 and the first Road custom, with 
much longer chainstays, slightly sacker head, and upsloping tts with extended 
head tubes. 
I say again that the later Road customs ride better on dirt, particularly sandy 
surfaces, than the XO-1 and the first gen, AR-based road custom.
I think -- but I am open to reasoned rebuttal -- that an Atlantis or Sam Hill 
would be better for all round riding than either XOs or ARs.

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Re: [RBW] Re: Let's talk about the All Rounder

[James Valiensi]

Hi,
When I ordered my custom Rivendell in 2002 I requested rack mounts on the fork 
blades. They hadn’t done this before. I had to send a drawing showing what I 
wanted. They agreed and Curt Goodrich made my frame. Joe Stark was supposed to 
be my builder, but he went of the reversvation before he started on it. I met 
Curt a few times and I’m super happy with his work. 

So, front rack mounts were not part of the normal Rivendell catalog 20 years 
ago.

James

> On Mar 10, 2023, at 11:31 AM, m f  wrote:
> 
> Hi - I'm new here! Not sure how many of you saw this on eBay over the past 
> few months, but I was able to work with the seller and found a way to buy 
> this 2000 All-Rounder (Curt Goodrich). I have a couple updates in mind 
> (sweptback handlebar, Brooks saddle), but those will happen with time. First 
> step will be new tires and tuning the mechanicals (Dura Ace except for 
> crankset) so I can get a ride or two under my belt. If the seller is in this 
> group - thanks again for all the help!
> 
> Questions for the group: 
> It seems odd to find an All Rounder, or any Riv for that matter, without rack 
> mounts on the upper/mid fork blade. Would this have been a special request to 
> not have them?
> What are the markers that indicate the frame was painted at Joe Bell's shop?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On Sunday, March 20, 2022 at 8:09:10 PM UTC-5 Patrick Moore wrote:
> The All Rounder like the XO-1 before it gets a lot of interest and praise, 
> but I think that, like the XO-1 that preceeded it, it is an early design that 
> has been superseded and bettered by later Grantian bikes, starting with the 
> Atlantis and continuing with the Sam Hillborne and doubtless the more recent 
> models.
> 
> I say this having owned an XO-1 and having bought a custom Road based on the 
> All Rounder, with lighter (753) tubing and slightly more upright hta (IIRC). 
> My 1999 and 2003 Road customs, also built for 26" wheels, are better "All 
> Round" both on pavement and in dirt than either XO-1 and the first Road 
> custom, with much longer chainstays, slightly sacker head, and upsloping tts 
> with extended head tubes. 
> 
> I say again that the later Road customs ride better on dirt, particularly 
> sandy surfaces, than the XO-1 and the first gen, AR-based road custom.
> 
> I think -- but I am open to reasoned rebuttal -- that an Atlantis or Sam Hill 
> would be better for all round riding than either XOs or ARs.
> 
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>  
> .
> 

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Re: [RBW] Re: Let's talk about the All Rounder

[Patrick Moore]

The All Rounder like the XO-1 before it gets a lot of interest and praise,
but I think that, like the XO-1 that preceeded it, it is an early design
that has been superseded and bettered by later Grantian bikes, starting
with the Atlantis and continuing with the Sam Hillborne and doubtless the
more recent models.

I say this having owned an XO-1 and having bought a custom Road based on
the All Rounder, with lighter (753) tubing and slightly more upright hta
(IIRC). My 1999 and 2003 Road customs, also built for 26" wheels, are
better "All Round" both on pavement and in dirt than either XO-1 and the
first Road custom, with much longer chainstays, slightly sacker head, and
upsloping tts with extended head tubes.

I say again that the later Road customs ride better on dirt, particularly
sandy surfaces, than the XO-1 and the first gen, AR-based road custom.

I think -- but I am open to reasoned rebuttal -- that an Atlantis or Sam
Hill would be better for all round riding than either XOs or ARs.

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[RBW] Re: Let's talk about the All Rounder

[Chris Zegers]

Hi  Sean,
I had a an early Waterford A/R which was ordered in 1994 and I recieved it 
in 1995 (Burnt orange with gray flannel). One of the best bikes I owned and 
the one bike I wish I would've kept. In fact, I have a Nobilette built 
Rivendell influenced by that  A/R w/700c wheels,  which reminds me alot of 
that first one, yet is quit a bit better with regard to fit, wheel size, 
tire clearance and ride.  If you can find one, go for it, I think they are  
a classic riding, all road bike that was ahead of the time. In fact,  Jan 
Haine's ultimate all-road bike is very similarly styled, albeit with 
clearance for bigger tires as the early A/R's. Good luck.
Chris


On Thursday, March 17, 2022 at 6:50:18 AM UTC-7 Sean Steinle wrote:

> I apologize if this has already been discussed, but I honestly can't find 
> much about the All Rounder, in the way of ride reports, reviews, etc. It 
> seems to be a Holy Grail bike for several, and I'm curious, is it simply 
> the fact that they're rare and hard to find now, or is there truly 
> something special about it? 
>
> I remember Grant talking about the old Bridgestones in an article I came 
> across, and his sentiment was essentially 'They're fine bikes, but they 
> don't stack up against Rivs'. At least part of his reasoning was that he'd 
> continued to refine with Rivendell, and the improvements were drastic 
> enough that he felt the Rivs were in a different league. This makes me 
> wonder if Grant would have a similar feeling about the All Rounder. I'd 
> love to hear from those who own/have owned one. What's the verdict, is it 
> truly one of the best Rivs out there? Worth the price of admission if one 
> is lucky enough to find one in their size?
>
> Thanks for humoring me :)
> Sean in Kansas
>

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[RBW] Re: Let's talk about the All Rounder

[iamkeith]

I own an All Rounder.  I also own a Saluki (pre-homer), a Ramboiillet, a 
Quickbeam, a Susie Longbolts (which replaced a Clem H), an XO-1, an RB-1, a 
late 90s Ibis Hakkaluggi, and more mountain bikes than possibly makes sense 
- including some that have been converted to road-ish bikes.  Guess which 
one sees more use than all the others combined!

It's not the lightest, nor the most comfortable, nor the most stable of the 
bunch.  It doesn't have particularly long chainstays, in which I'm a true  
believer.  It doesn't have as long of a top tube as I wish it had.  It 
doesn't have the 6 degree up-sloped top tube like the newer models, and 
which I personally find more attractive in a form-follows-function sort of 
way  (though it does come from the era when the models were available in 
smaller size increments so you could get the exact size you needed).  It 
doesn't even have that pretty of lugs or fork crown, by rivendell standards 
- (though it does have a gorgeous Joe Bell paint job.)

What it DOES have, and why I think I like it so much, is 26" wheels and all 
the advantages they offer.  Any tires between 1.5" and 2.3" are great, and 
give it different personalities.  I've done 100 mile days, long climbs with 
bomber descents (including beartooth pass), a week-long tour, fought 45 mph 
winds, taken it on many trail rides, shopping runs and slow meandering 
rides with my kids when they were young, and almost never wish I was on a 
different bike. Also.. I thinK that sometimes a bike happens to be more 
than a sum of its details, and just works for reasons you can't explain.

After so many years of Rivendell being the only option for reasonable 
bikes, there's an absolute wealth good options these days:  Crust, BMC, 
Analog, Ocean Air, Rawland, Stooge, etc., and probably even some mainstream 
copycats.  I'm tempted all the time to buy another bike, especially with 
disc brakes, but - in the end - always just accept the fact that I'll 
likely prefer the All Rounder anyway, and so I finally decide to save 
myself the money and hassle.

As far as the comparison to the XO-1 goes, I suspect much of what Grant 
meant is related to construction.  When you look at the AR and the XO side 
by side, the level of difference in build quality is remarkable.  But the 
XO has some sort of magic of its own, with the lighter, skinnier tubing. 

On Thursday, March 17, 2022 at 7:50:18 AM UTC-6 Sean Steinle wrote:

> I apologize if this has already been discussed, but I honestly can't find 
> much about the All Rounder, in the way of ride reports, reviews, etc. It 
> seems to be a Holy Grail bike for several, and I'm curious, is it simply 
> the fact that they're rare and hard to find now, or is there truly 
> something special about it? 
>
> I remember Grant talking about the old Bridgestones in an article I came 
> across, and his sentiment was essentially 'They're fine bikes, but they 
> don't stack up against Rivs'. At least part of his reasoning was that he'd 
> continued to refine with Rivendell, and the improvements were drastic 
> enough that he felt the Rivs were in a different league. This makes me 
> wonder if Grant would have a similar feeling about the All Rounder. I'd 
> love to hear from those who own/have owned one. What's the verdict, is it 
> truly one of the best Rivs out there? Worth the price of admission if one 
> is lucky enough to find one in their size?
>
> Thanks for humoring me :)
> Sean in Kansas
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Let's talk about the All Rounder

[Cyclofiend Jim]

In terms of lineage, the A/R was the refinement of the XO from the 
Bridgestone era, and begat the Atlantis. 
http://www.cyclofiend.com/Images/rbw/gen1/rivcat05_allrounder.jpg

http://www.cyclofiend.com/rbw/atlantis/index.html

- J


On Thursday, March 17, 2022 at 1:03:32 PM UTC-7 Ryan wrote:

> What Addison said!
>
> In my mind, it's like the little black Chanel cocktail dress...a classic 
> that never really goes out of style. Think of Audrey Hepburn in *Breakfast 
> at Tiffany's.*
>
> But of course, I too appreciate Riv's current offerings. Of course I'm 
> keeping my 1997 Waterford-built AR. If I was going to buy another 
> bike...not likely, but if...a Clem step-thru would be the ticket. I don't 
> love the Boscos, and I would probably do as others have done and shed some 
> rolling weight with 36-hole Deore LX/XT hubs, Velocity rims w db spokes and 
> RH tires with the Endurance casing. And maybe a wider Brooks sprung saddle 
> for the more upright position. Black or some other really understated color.
>
> On Thursday, March 17, 2022 at 1:06:20 PM UTC-5 Addison wrote:
>
>> I've raved for years about my Allrounder.  It does pretty much everything 
>> well or exceptionally well.  At least that I ask it to do.  The current 
>> iteration is attached.
>>
>> And here is an old link/write up I did on it.
>>
>>
>> https://www.addisonwilhite.com/rambler/rivendell-allrounder-jack-of-all-tradesmast-of-most
>>
>> I test rode a Hunq a few years ago and felt like my AR was the same 
>> bike.  I know the new Riv offerings are different animals but they don't 
>> speak to me the way  the AR does.  Still love and admire Riv the company of 
>> course.
>>
>> Cheers,
>>
>> Addison Wilhite, M.A. 
>>
>> Academy of Arts, Careers and Technology 
>>  
>>
>> *“Blazing the Trail to College and Career Success”*
>>
>> Portfolio and Blog 
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Mar 17, 2022 at 10:42 AM Sean Steinle  wrote:
>>
>>> Thanks for the replies so far, wonderful stuff, this is exactly the sort 
>>> of discussion I was hoping for. Unsurprisingly, the consensus so far seems 
>>> to be what I thought from the start, a great bike, but less 'refined' than 
>>> current Rivs, in the sense that Grant is always tweaking and making things 
>>> closer to his current definitely of ideal. 
>>>
>>> Bill, great points, and thanks for the reply, what I actually meant by 
>>> point 2 was not whether Grant still feels like the All Rounder is better 
>>> than the b-stones, but whether he feels like his current bikes are much 
>>> superior to the All Rounder, in the same as he felt about the All Rounder 
>>> compared to the b-stones back when he first started Riv. I think the answer 
>>> to that is probably yes, or, like you poitned out, it'd still be an 
>>> offering from them. 
>>>
>>> On Thursday, March 17, 2022 at 11:52:06 AM UTC-5 George Rosselle wrote:
>>>
 I did not own and All Rounder but did have an Atlantis from the first 
 batch. It was a beautiful bike and a pleasure to ride, but was a bit 
 harsher than I would have liked. Maybe it would ride better loaded but I 
 never rode it that way. I much prefer the ride of the Rosco Bubbe I have 
 now. I think the changes Grant has made in the bikes over time is an 
 improvement, as you would hope, not just changes for the sake of selling 
 more bikes. If you find an All Rounder that fits for a good price it might 
 be worth checking out, but there are so many similar bikes on the market 
 now that are probably better for the same price, or less, that I would 
 recommend keeping an open mind.

 George in Loganville, GA

 On Thursday, March 17, 2022 at 12:19:38 PM UTC-4 Mackenzy Albright 
 wrote:

> I have not personally owned an all-rounder. But in general interest of 
> bike development and history. It seemed that the design lineage came 
> loosely from elements of the randonneur bikes (roadish geometry with 650b 
> wider tires) Grant - being a thoughtful individual, adopted the design to 
> contemporary parts availability which created the XO-1, which utilized 
> slightly wider 26" tires. With Bridgestone being less interested in 
> developing niche bikes grant started Rivendell. The All-rounder was a 
> quick 
> adaptation to a more boutique style small company version with revisions 
> as 
> Grant's perspective on bikes changed. If I recall there was also the 
> mountain bike (I cant recall the name) and a road frame? EItherway - the 
> All-rounder morphed into the Atlantis (another reference to Bridgestone 
> touring bikes)  The Atlantis, again following trends in terms of 
> wheelsize 
> and clearance became (ie fitting 29er sized tires etc) which has had it's 
> own evolution in itself. 
>
> Grant see's his bikes within his interest of market. I think the early 
> Atlantis style bikes influenced a 

Re: [RBW] Re: Let's talk about the All Rounder

[Ryan]

What Addison said!

In my mind, it's like the little black Chanel cocktail dress...a classic 
that never really goes out of style. Think of Audrey Hepburn in *Breakfast 
at Tiffany's.*

But of course, I too appreciate Riv's current offerings. Of course I'm 
keeping my 1997 Waterford-built AR. If I was going to buy another 
bike...not likely, but if...a Clem step-thru would be the ticket. I don't 
love the Boscos, and I would probably do as others have done and shed some 
rolling weight with 36-hole Deore LX/XT hubs, Velocity rims w db spokes and 
RH tires with the Endurance casing. And maybe a wider Brooks sprung saddle 
for the more upright position. Black or some other really understated color.

On Thursday, March 17, 2022 at 1:06:20 PM UTC-5 Addison wrote:

> I've raved for years about my Allrounder.  It does pretty much everything 
> well or exceptionally well.  At least that I ask it to do.  The current 
> iteration is attached.
>
> And here is an old link/write up I did on it.
>
>
> https://www.addisonwilhite.com/rambler/rivendell-allrounder-jack-of-all-tradesmast-of-most
>
> I test rode a Hunq a few years ago and felt like my AR was the same bike.  
> I know the new Riv offerings are different animals but they don't speak to 
> me the way  the AR does.  Still love and admire Riv the company of course.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Addison Wilhite, M.A. 
>
> Academy of Arts, Careers and Technology 
>  
>
> *“Blazing the Trail to College and Career Success”*
>
> Portfolio and Blog 
>
>
> On Thu, Mar 17, 2022 at 10:42 AM Sean Steinle  wrote:
>
>> Thanks for the replies so far, wonderful stuff, this is exactly the sort 
>> of discussion I was hoping for. Unsurprisingly, the consensus so far seems 
>> to be what I thought from the start, a great bike, but less 'refined' than 
>> current Rivs, in the sense that Grant is always tweaking and making things 
>> closer to his current definitely of ideal. 
>>
>> Bill, great points, and thanks for the reply, what I actually meant by 
>> point 2 was not whether Grant still feels like the All Rounder is better 
>> than the b-stones, but whether he feels like his current bikes are much 
>> superior to the All Rounder, in the same as he felt about the All Rounder 
>> compared to the b-stones back when he first started Riv. I think the answer 
>> to that is probably yes, or, like you poitned out, it'd still be an 
>> offering from them. 
>>
>> On Thursday, March 17, 2022 at 11:52:06 AM UTC-5 George Rosselle wrote:
>>
>>> I did not own and All Rounder but did have an Atlantis from the first 
>>> batch. It was a beautiful bike and a pleasure to ride, but was a bit 
>>> harsher than I would have liked. Maybe it would ride better loaded but I 
>>> never rode it that way. I much prefer the ride of the Rosco Bubbe I have 
>>> now. I think the changes Grant has made in the bikes over time is an 
>>> improvement, as you would hope, not just changes for the sake of selling 
>>> more bikes. If you find an All Rounder that fits for a good price it might 
>>> be worth checking out, but there are so many similar bikes on the market 
>>> now that are probably better for the same price, or less, that I would 
>>> recommend keeping an open mind.
>>>
>>> George in Loganville, GA
>>>
>>> On Thursday, March 17, 2022 at 12:19:38 PM UTC-4 Mackenzy Albright wrote:
>>>
 I have not personally owned an all-rounder. But in general interest of 
 bike development and history. It seemed that the design lineage came 
 loosely from elements of the randonneur bikes (roadish geometry with 650b 
 wider tires) Grant - being a thoughtful individual, adopted the design to 
 contemporary parts availability which created the XO-1, which utilized 
 slightly wider 26" tires. With Bridgestone being less interested in 
 developing niche bikes grant started Rivendell. The All-rounder was a 
 quick 
 adaptation to a more boutique style small company version with revisions 
 as 
 Grant's perspective on bikes changed. If I recall there was also the 
 mountain bike (I cant recall the name) and a road frame? EItherway - the 
 All-rounder morphed into the Atlantis (another reference to Bridgestone 
 touring bikes)  The Atlantis, again following trends in terms of wheelsize 
 and clearance became (ie fitting 29er sized tires etc) which has had it's 
 own evolution in itself. 

 Grant see's his bikes within his interest of market. I think the early 
 Atlantis style bikes influenced a whole generation of conteporary bikes. 
 Crust Romanceur (which has been cited as based off the atlantis with discs 
 and lower trail) Guerilla Monsoon, Midnight Special. ANd pretty much every 
 other company to follow. 

 In terms of a tighter geometry (road) geometry bike that fits 
 relatively large wheels, there are now a ton of options. Which is 
 fantastic. I really like my 

[RBW] Re: Let's talk about the All Rounder

[Sean Steinle]

Thanks for the replies so far, wonderful stuff, this is exactly the sort of 
discussion I was hoping for. Unsurprisingly, the consensus so far seems to 
be what I thought from the start, a great bike, but less 'refined' than 
current Rivs, in the sense that Grant is always tweaking and making things 
closer to his current definitely of ideal. 

Bill, great points, and thanks for the reply, what I actually meant by 
point 2 was not whether Grant still feels like the All Rounder is better 
than the b-stones, but whether he feels like his current bikes are much 
superior to the All Rounder, in the same as he felt about the All Rounder 
compared to the b-stones back when he first started Riv. I think the answer 
to that is probably yes, or, like you poitned out, it'd still be an 
offering from them. 

On Thursday, March 17, 2022 at 11:52:06 AM UTC-5 George Rosselle wrote:

> I did not own and All Rounder but did have an Atlantis from the first 
> batch. It was a beautiful bike and a pleasure to ride, but was a bit 
> harsher than I would have liked. Maybe it would ride better loaded but I 
> never rode it that way. I much prefer the ride of the Rosco Bubbe I have 
> now. I think the changes Grant has made in the bikes over time is an 
> improvement, as you would hope, not just changes for the sake of selling 
> more bikes. If you find an All Rounder that fits for a good price it might 
> be worth checking out, but there are so many similar bikes on the market 
> now that are probably better for the same price, or less, that I would 
> recommend keeping an open mind.
>
> George in Loganville, GA
>
> On Thursday, March 17, 2022 at 12:19:38 PM UTC-4 Mackenzy Albright wrote:
>
>> I have not personally owned an all-rounder. But in general interest of 
>> bike development and history. It seemed that the design lineage came 
>> loosely from elements of the randonneur bikes (roadish geometry with 650b 
>> wider tires) Grant - being a thoughtful individual, adopted the design to 
>> contemporary parts availability which created the XO-1, which utilized 
>> slightly wider 26" tires. With Bridgestone being less interested in 
>> developing niche bikes grant started Rivendell. The All-rounder was a quick 
>> adaptation to a more boutique style small company version with revisions as 
>> Grant's perspective on bikes changed. If I recall there was also the 
>> mountain bike (I cant recall the name) and a road frame? EItherway - the 
>> All-rounder morphed into the Atlantis (another reference to Bridgestone 
>> touring bikes)  The Atlantis, again following trends in terms of wheelsize 
>> and clearance became (ie fitting 29er sized tires etc) which has had it's 
>> own evolution in itself. 
>>
>> Grant see's his bikes within his interest of market. I think the early 
>> Atlantis style bikes influenced a whole generation of conteporary bikes. 
>> Crust Romanceur (which has been cited as based off the atlantis with discs 
>> and lower trail) Guerilla Monsoon, Midnight Special. ANd pretty much every 
>> other company to follow. 
>>
>> In terms of a tighter geometry (road) geometry bike that fits relatively 
>> large wheels, there are now a ton of options. Which is fantastic. I really 
>> like my romanceur. It feels spritely as any road bike but easily handles 
>> more conditions. 
>>
>> Rivendell in itself has de-performanced their contemporary designs (from 
>> racing standpoint) and pushed geometry to be more adventure, comfort, and 
>> stamina based oriented. Having several injuries and not being able to 
>> maintain an aggressive riding position and extremely excited to build up a 
>> CLEM L for camping/touring bike. I'll keep the romanceur for shorter more 
>> "spirited rides" as Jan Heine would say. 
>>
>> In terms of preference. I think the all-rounder (x0-1) Toyo Atlantis's 
>> have a special place especially in paving the way for contemporary 
>> performance bike design. Aesthetically and performance wise. In terms of 
>> actual design - there are so many options, as we kind of live in a 
>> renaissance of bicycle design where we have so many options at reasonable 
>> costs. I for one am excited for what RIvendell is pushing these days (long 
>> slack sturdy), as I feel like you can find something reminiscent of the 
>> All-rounders elsewhere (even the crust lightning bolt). Or even just get a 
>> custom made for probably a similarly proportional price from an artisanal 
>> builder with many wonderful tube-sets available to choose from. 
>>
>> On Thursday, March 17, 2022 at 8:36:41 AM UTC-6 Marty Gierke, 
>> Stewartstown PA wrote:
>>
>>> I had a 2001 All Rounder for a while. Lovely bike. Fit me well. Checked 
>>> all the boxes - looks, quality, fully lugged, Rivendell branding, known 
>>> builder (Kurt Goodrich in this case). Maybe I should have kept it, but when 
>>> I came across a Clem H in my size - at a third the price I could get for 
>>> the AR frameset - I elected to turn the page. Glad I did. The Clem is 
>>> 

[RBW] Re: Let's talk about the All Rounder

[George Rosselle]

I did not own and All Rounder but did have an Atlantis from the first 
batch. It was a beautiful bike and a pleasure to ride, but was a bit 
harsher than I would have liked. Maybe it would ride better loaded but I 
never rode it that way. I much prefer the ride of the Rosco Bubbe I have 
now. I think the changes Grant has made in the bikes over time is an 
improvement, as you would hope, not just changes for the sake of selling 
more bikes. If you find an All Rounder that fits for a good price it might 
be worth checking out, but there are so many similar bikes on the market 
now that are probably better for the same price, or less, that I would 
recommend keeping an open mind.

George in Loganville, GA

On Thursday, March 17, 2022 at 12:19:38 PM UTC-4 Mackenzy Albright wrote:

> I have not personally owned an all-rounder. But in general interest of 
> bike development and history. It seemed that the design lineage came 
> loosely from elements of the randonneur bikes (roadish geometry with 650b 
> wider tires) Grant - being a thoughtful individual, adopted the design to 
> contemporary parts availability which created the XO-1, which utilized 
> slightly wider 26" tires. With Bridgestone being less interested in 
> developing niche bikes grant started Rivendell. The All-rounder was a quick 
> adaptation to a more boutique style small company version with revisions as 
> Grant's perspective on bikes changed. If I recall there was also the 
> mountain bike (I cant recall the name) and a road frame? EItherway - the 
> All-rounder morphed into the Atlantis (another reference to Bridgestone 
> touring bikes)  The Atlantis, again following trends in terms of wheelsize 
> and clearance became (ie fitting 29er sized tires etc) which has had it's 
> own evolution in itself. 
>
> Grant see's his bikes within his interest of market. I think the early 
> Atlantis style bikes influenced a whole generation of conteporary bikes. 
> Crust Romanceur (which has been cited as based off the atlantis with discs 
> and lower trail) Guerilla Monsoon, Midnight Special. ANd pretty much every 
> other company to follow. 
>
> In terms of a tighter geometry (road) geometry bike that fits relatively 
> large wheels, there are now a ton of options. Which is fantastic. I really 
> like my romanceur. It feels spritely as any road bike but easily handles 
> more conditions. 
>
> Rivendell in itself has de-performanced their contemporary designs (from 
> racing standpoint) and pushed geometry to be more adventure, comfort, and 
> stamina based oriented. Having several injuries and not being able to 
> maintain an aggressive riding position and extremely excited to build up a 
> CLEM L for camping/touring bike. I'll keep the romanceur for shorter more 
> "spirited rides" as Jan Heine would say. 
>
> In terms of preference. I think the all-rounder (x0-1) Toyo Atlantis's 
> have a special place especially in paving the way for contemporary 
> performance bike design. Aesthetically and performance wise. In terms of 
> actual design - there are so many options, as we kind of live in a 
> renaissance of bicycle design where we have so many options at reasonable 
> costs. I for one am excited for what RIvendell is pushing these days (long 
> slack sturdy), as I feel like you can find something reminiscent of the 
> All-rounders elsewhere (even the crust lightning bolt). Or even just get a 
> custom made for probably a similarly proportional price from an artisanal 
> builder with many wonderful tube-sets available to choose from. 
>
> On Thursday, March 17, 2022 at 8:36:41 AM UTC-6 Marty Gierke, Stewartstown 
> PA wrote:
>
>> I had a 2001 All Rounder for a while. Lovely bike. Fit me well. Checked 
>> all the boxes - looks, quality, fully lugged, Rivendell branding, known 
>> builder (Kurt Goodrich in this case). Maybe I should have kept it, but when 
>> I came across a Clem H in my size - at a third the price I could get for 
>> the AR frameset - I elected to turn the page. Glad I did. The Clem is 
>> everything an All Rounder should be. Stout, stable, versatile, comfortable. 
>> The list goes on. Comparing the two is not easy - they both felt fine for 
>> my riding style. If I had both I dare say the Clem would be out on the 
>> trail way more than the AR. Aside from the Rivendell branding on the AR, I 
>> like the aesthetics of both about the same, although the swooping seat 
>> stays on Clem are kind of interesting - a little Hetchins-like. The Clem 
>> will take bigger tires with fenders if that matters. As a bike, I think 
>> it's hard to beat what Riv sells now. Most are All Rounders in all the ways 
>> that matter. I'll admit I am not a fan of step-through style frames in 
>> general (I had a huge Roscoe Bubbe) or curved/dropped/swooping top tubes. 
>> The Clem H TT is not horizontal, but at least it's straight. Simply a 
>> function of my age I think. If I found another AR that fit, and I had the 
>> $$$, I might be tempted, but I'm not 

[RBW] Re: Let's talk about the All Rounder

[Bill Lindsay]

Sean asked a few questions regarding the All-Rounder.  I have not owned 
one, but I know the Bridgestone and Riv history pretty well and know Grant 
pretty well.  Sean's questions were:

1.  I'm curious (about why it's a Holy Grail bike for several), is it 
simply the fact that they're rare and hard to find now, or is there truly 
something special about it?  

*IMO, there is nothing truly special about it in the objective sense.  It 
was a step along Grant's design career.  Grant thinks of his current 
designs as more refined, i.e. 'better'.  Ungenerous folks attribute this to 
Grant being a marketer.  Of course he says the latest stuff is the best, 
because that's what he's selling.  Those ungenerous folks, besides being 
ungenerous, also have Grant's brain inverted.  Grant designs the best 
possible bikes he can think of today.  He never tries to sell you on a 
bike.  He hopes you like the bikes he designs, but if you don't, that's 
totally fine.  If Grant thought the All-Rounder was the apex of anything, 
Rivendell would still offer them.  There is plenty subjectively special 
about the All-Rounder.  A builder whose name you've heard personally built 
it.  It has "Rivendell" on the downtube.  It has a geometry that looks like 
a 1990s bike.  None of those things make the bike objectively better, but 
make them desirable by enough people that the supply x demand curve makes 
them super valuable.  To me, the All-Rounder is among the nicest 1990s 
touring frames.  It's very very nice, and it is a classic.  It looks like a 
very good bike from the 1990s, and that's what it is.  *

2.  " he felt the Rivs were in a different league. This makes me wonder if 
Grant would have a similar feeling about the All Rounder."

*Yes, I assure you Grant thinks the All-Rounder and every early Riv model 
is much much nicer than anything Bridgestone USA ever sold.  *

3.  " What's the verdict, is it truly one of the best Rivs out there?"  

*No.  Not objectively "best".  Subjectively one of the most desirable for 
some people.  People who tend towards traditional, whose tastes have not 
evolved significantly over the last ~30 years.  *

4. "Worth the price of admission if one is lucky enough to find one in 
their size?"

*That depends on who is paying.  If you are going to ride the heck out of 
it and can afford one, absolutely.  If you are going to speculatively guess 
that it will appreciate in value, and you're going to flip it for a profit, 
maybe.  If you expect it to be much much faster than a current Rivendell, 
or much much more comfortable, or much much more efficient, or whatever, 
then NO.  Paying a premium for a 30 year old bike won't get you anything 
objectively better than a non-collectors bike.   If you have to financially 
suffer to get one, or have to handwring over whether it'll get scratched or 
stolen, then no, it's not worth it.  No bike is worth the price if the 
price makes you afraid to use it.  Some machines are worth collecting to 
collectors.  Rivendells are not among those.  One of the worst things one 
can do with a Rivendell is collect and preserve it.  Rivendells are for 
riding.  *

Bill Lindsay
El Cerrito, CA

On Thursday, March 17, 2022 at 6:50:18 AM UTC-7 Sean Steinle wrote:

> I apologize if this has already been discussed, but I honestly can't find 
> much about the All Rounder, in the way of ride reports, reviews, etc. It 
> seems to be a Holy Grail bike for several, and I'm curious, is it simply 
> the fact that they're rare and hard to find now, or is there truly 
> something special about it? 
>
> I remember Grant talking about the old Bridgestones in an article I came 
> across, and his sentiment was essentially 'They're fine bikes, but they 
> don't stack up against Rivs'. At least part of his reasoning was that he'd 
> continued to refine with Rivendell, and the improvements were drastic 
> enough that he felt the Rivs were in a different league. This makes me 
> wonder if Grant would have a similar feeling about the All Rounder. I'd 
> love to hear from those who own/have owned one. What's the verdict, is it 
> truly one of the best Rivs out there? Worth the price of admission if one 
> is lucky enough to find one in their size?
>
> Thanks for humoring me :)
> Sean in Kansas
>

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[RBW] Re: Let's talk about the All Rounder

[Mackenzy Albright]

I have not personally owned an all-rounder. But in general interest of bike 
development and history. It seemed that the design lineage came loosely 
from elements of the randonneur bikes (roadish geometry with 650b wider 
tires) Grant - being a thoughtful individual, adopted the design to 
contemporary parts availability which created the XO-1, which utilized 
slightly wider 26" tires. With Bridgestone being less interested in 
developing niche bikes grant started Rivendell. The All-rounder was a quick 
adaptation to a more boutique style small company version with revisions as 
Grant's perspective on bikes changed. If I recall there was also the 
mountain bike (I cant recall the name) and a road frame? EItherway - the 
All-rounder morphed into the Atlantis (another reference to Bridgestone 
touring bikes)  The Atlantis, again following trends in terms of wheelsize 
and clearance became (ie fitting 29er sized tires etc) which has had it's 
own evolution in itself. 

Grant see's his bikes within his interest of market. I think the early 
Atlantis style bikes influenced a whole generation of conteporary bikes. 
Crust Romanceur (which has been cited as based off the atlantis with discs 
and lower trail) Guerilla Monsoon, Midnight Special. ANd pretty much every 
other company to follow. 

In terms of a tighter geometry (road) geometry bike that fits relatively 
large wheels, there are now a ton of options. Which is fantastic. I really 
like my romanceur. It feels spritely as any road bike but easily handles 
more conditions. 

Rivendell in itself has de-performanced their contemporary designs (from 
racing standpoint) and pushed geometry to be more adventure, comfort, and 
stamina based oriented. Having several injuries and not being able to 
maintain an aggressive riding position and extremely excited to build up a 
CLEM L for camping/touring bike. I'll keep the romanceur for shorter more 
"spirited rides" as Jan Heine would say. 

In terms of preference. I think the all-rounder (x0-1) Toyo Atlantis's have 
a special place especially in paving the way for contemporary performance 
bike design. Aesthetically and performance wise. In terms of actual design 
- there are so many options, as we kind of live in a renaissance of bicycle 
design where we have so many options at reasonable costs. I for one am 
excited for what RIvendell is pushing these days (long slack sturdy), as I 
feel like you can find something reminiscent of the All-rounders elsewhere 
(even the crust lightning bolt). Or even just get a custom made for 
probably a similarly proportional price from an artisanal builder with many 
wonderful tube-sets available to choose from. 

On Thursday, March 17, 2022 at 8:36:41 AM UTC-6 Marty Gierke, Stewartstown 
PA wrote:

> I had a 2001 All Rounder for a while. Lovely bike. Fit me well. Checked 
> all the boxes - looks, quality, fully lugged, Rivendell branding, known 
> builder (Kurt Goodrich in this case). Maybe I should have kept it, but when 
> I came across a Clem H in my size - at a third the price I could get for 
> the AR frameset - I elected to turn the page. Glad I did. The Clem is 
> everything an All Rounder should be. Stout, stable, versatile, comfortable. 
> The list goes on. Comparing the two is not easy - they both felt fine for 
> my riding style. If I had both I dare say the Clem would be out on the 
> trail way more than the AR. Aside from the Rivendell branding on the AR, I 
> like the aesthetics of both about the same, although the swooping seat 
> stays on Clem are kind of interesting - a little Hetchins-like. The Clem 
> will take bigger tires with fenders if that matters. As a bike, I think 
> it's hard to beat what Riv sells now. Most are All Rounders in all the ways 
> that matter. I'll admit I am not a fan of step-through style frames in 
> general (I had a huge Roscoe Bubbe) or curved/dropped/swooping top tubes. 
> The Clem H TT is not horizontal, but at least it's straight. Simply a 
> function of my age I think. If I found another AR that fit, and I had the 
> $$$, I might be tempted, but I'm not really looking (or hoping) for one to 
> pop up.  Here's my AR and the Clem H that replaced it. The Clem is getting 
> new tires this week, and has been tweaked in a few other ways. I'll post 
> some more pics of that shortly. 
>
> Marty
>
> [image: 47949931546_9757e0f6b5_k.jpeg]
> [image: PXL_20210925_162632253.jpeg]
>
> On Thursday, March 17, 2022 at 9:50:18 AM UTC-4 Sean Steinle wrote:
>
>> I apologize if this has already been discussed, but I honestly can't find 
>> much about the All Rounder, in the way of ride reports, reviews, etc. It 
>> seems to be a Holy Grail bike for several, and I'm curious, is it simply 
>> the fact that they're rare and hard to find now, or is there truly 
>> something special about it? 
>>
>> I remember Grant talking about the old Bridgestones in an article I came 
>> across, and his sentiment was essentially 'They're fine bikes, but they 
>> don't