Re: [RBW] Re: What shoes does your Riv wear?

[Ted W]

Well, for those curious, I discovered and impulsively bought a set of WTB
Resolute tires in 700x42. A friend of mines wife runs these on her Hoefer (
http://www.hoefercycles.com) gravel bike. My friend also happens to have a
couple other bikes. One runs the RH Umtanum Ridge (650x55) on one bike and
the other, Juniper Ridge (650x48). So this gave me a really great
opportunity to compare a lot of options side-by-side. Bringing out the
calipers, I measured things as follows:

|———-|
| tire | sidewall size  | rim inner width | measured width |
|———-|
| WTB  | 650x42  | 25mm|  44mm
|
|———-|
| Umtanum | 650x55  |  19mm|  53mm |
|———-|
| Juniper | 650x48  |  24mm   |   50mm
   |
|———-|

I ended up with the WTB tires because the tread pattern is almost identical
to the RH tread pattern and they’re 2/3 the price of the RH tires. The only
concern I have at this point is the sidewall. My friend warned me that he
has seen some other folks run these tires and shred the thin sidewalls. But
he prefaced that with saying those people rode on very aggressive terrain,
not what I ride (pavement and hard pack gravel).

I hope the data formatted properly (I did my best on my phone) and that the
data is helpful for others. I will report back if there’s anything to note
about the WTB tires as I get some miles on them.

On Tue, Oct 10, 2023 at 11:50 AM Mike Godwin  wrote:

> Supple Vitese 700x38 on Bob Jackson
> Challenge Strada Bianca 700x32 on Roadeo (measure about 33.3)
> Gravel King slicks 700x38 on BMC Monstercross
>
> All nice smooth rolling, the feel light enough. Got my first flat on Bob
> last week from a goathead. I've not had issues with them, mount easily and
> lie in the bead bed perfectly.  Same can be said about the Challenge
> tires.  Gravel Kings are a bit tighter (on Pacenti Forza rims), I think
> they are the tubeless compatible model. No flats yet.
>
> BMC and BJ do commute and errand duties alternating weeks.
> Mike SLO CA
>
> On Monday, October 9, 2023 at 10:18:02 PM UTC-7 Joe Bernard wrote:
>
>> Jason,
>>
>> I'm digging the 650B × 42 Pumpkin Ridge for crappy road/mellow dirt
>> riding, but they feel a smidge narrow and skittish on some of the gnarlier
>> terrain I've discovered since moving here. I have room for 48s, should I
>> dump cash - it's a LOT of cash - into Juniper Ridges?
>>
>> Joe Bernard
>>
>> On Monday, October 9, 2023 at 5:43:19 PM UTC-7 Jason Fuller wrote:
>>
>>> I'm late to the party, and every angle has already been discussed at
>>> length, but I still want to shout out the RH knobbies. I'm very happy with
>>> them, but more notably for me is that I've recommended them to some riding
>>> buddies and then the good word spread like wildfire and now nearly all my
>>> riding buddies within that social circle, which ranges from longtime
>>> roadies to newbies to longtime mountain bikers, all absolutely swear by
>>> these tires.  None of us have experienced a tire that grips so well on a
>>> variety of trail surfaces, rolls fast and predictably on pavement, resists
>>> punctures, and feels great (better than other premium Panaracer brands) all
>>> at the same time.
>>>
>>> My only non-gushing comments would be that they do have a buzz on
>>> pavement, though the tone is more pleasant than most knobbies, and they do
>>> tend to throw pea gravel through your fender if you run metal fenders,
>>> which is slightly annoying. Definitely pair these with PDW safety tabs if
>>> running metal fenders.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Monday, 2 October 2023 at 08:26:17 UTC-7 ted.l...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>
 I’ve had tires on the brain this last week. I was thinking I might want
 to try something a little narrower on my Appaloosa so I’ve been a bit
 absorbed with that thought.

 At the moment I run the SimWorks Super Yummy tire with the black
 sidewall in 29x2.25”. I previously had their 26x2.25” tan wall tires on a
 26” build and absolutely loved them on that bike. Unfortunately, in the
 larger size, with the sort of riding I do (spirited, urban, all-road) I
 find the tires sluggish and a bit unpredictable at times. Combined with the
 25mm wide rim I use, the tires measure to close to 60mm wide.

 I was thinking about trying to find a tire with a more rounded profile
 and something that would be a bit narrower, somewhere in the 44-48mm range
 to start.

 I’ve been looking primarily at the Rene Herse tires. I have a friend
 who runs the Pumpkin Ridge (650x42) tire on his bike of a similar purpose
 and absolutely loves them. I’ve used the Naches Pass (26x1.8) on another
 build and also liked them a lot, but found that despite being the
 “endurance” casing, they were very prone to small 

[RBW] Re: What shoes does your Riv wear?

[Mike Godwin]

Supple Vitese 700x38 on Bob Jackson
Challenge Strada Bianca 700x32 on Roadeo (measure about 33.3)
Gravel King slicks 700x38 on BMC Monstercross

All nice smooth rolling, the feel light enough. Got my first flat on Bob 
last week from a goathead. I've not had issues with them, mount easily and 
lie in the bead bed perfectly.  Same can be said about the Challenge 
tires.  Gravel Kings are a bit tighter (on Pacenti Forza rims), I think 
they are the tubeless compatible model. No flats yet. 

BMC and BJ do commute and errand duties alternating weeks. 
Mike SLO CA

On Monday, October 9, 2023 at 10:18:02 PM UTC-7 Joe Bernard wrote:

> Jason, 
>
> I'm digging the 650B × 42 Pumpkin Ridge for crappy road/mellow dirt 
> riding, but they feel a smidge narrow and skittish on some of the gnarlier 
> terrain I've discovered since moving here. I have room for 48s, should I 
> dump cash - it's a LOT of cash - into Juniper Ridges? 
>
> Joe Bernard 
>
> On Monday, October 9, 2023 at 5:43:19 PM UTC-7 Jason Fuller wrote:
>
>> I'm late to the party, and every angle has already been discussed at 
>> length, but I still want to shout out the RH knobbies. I'm very happy with 
>> them, but more notably for me is that I've recommended them to some riding 
>> buddies and then the good word spread like wildfire and now nearly all my 
>> riding buddies within that social circle, which ranges from longtime 
>> roadies to newbies to longtime mountain bikers, all absolutely swear by 
>> these tires.  None of us have experienced a tire that grips so well on a 
>> variety of trail surfaces, rolls fast and predictably on pavement, resists 
>> punctures, and feels great (better than other premium Panaracer brands) all 
>> at the same time. 
>>
>> My only non-gushing comments would be that they do have a buzz on 
>> pavement, though the tone is more pleasant than most knobbies, and they do 
>> tend to throw pea gravel through your fender if you run metal fenders, 
>> which is slightly annoying. Definitely pair these with PDW safety tabs if 
>> running metal fenders. 
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Monday, 2 October 2023 at 08:26:17 UTC-7 ted.l...@gmail.com wrote:
>>
>>> I’ve had tires on the brain this last week. I was thinking I might want 
>>> to try something a little narrower on my Appaloosa so I’ve been a bit 
>>> absorbed with that thought.
>>>
>>> At the moment I run the SimWorks Super Yummy tire with the black 
>>> sidewall in 29x2.25”. I previously had their 26x2.25” tan wall tires on a 
>>> 26” build and absolutely loved them on that bike. Unfortunately, in the 
>>> larger size, with the sort of riding I do (spirited, urban, all-road) I 
>>> find the tires sluggish and a bit unpredictable at times. Combined with the 
>>> 25mm wide rim I use, the tires measure to close to 60mm wide.
>>>
>>> I was thinking about trying to find a tire with a more rounded profile 
>>> and something that would be a bit narrower, somewhere in the 44-48mm range 
>>> to start.
>>>
>>> I’ve been looking primarily at the Rene Herse tires. I have a friend who 
>>> runs the Pumpkin Ridge (650x42) tire on his bike of a similar purpose and 
>>> absolutely loves them. I’ve used the Naches Pass (26x1.8) on another build 
>>> and also liked them a lot, but found that despite being the “endurance” 
>>> casing, they were very prone to small punctures and didn’t handle the 
>>> typical road debris around where I ride very well; this is one of the 
>>> reasons I’ve typically stuck with knobbier tires.
>>>
>>> The ones on my short list are currently the  Manatash Ridge (700x42) and 
>>> Oracle Ridge (700x48) tires from RH.
>>>
>>> I’m curious to know and see what others on the list use and have liked. 
>>> If you have pictures, I’d also love to see what they look like 
>>> (particularly 42mm on frames like the Appaloosa).
>>>
>>> — Ted
>>>
>>

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[RBW] Re: What shoes does your Riv wear?

[Joe Bernard]

Jason, 

I'm digging the 650B × 42 Pumpkin Ridge for crappy road/mellow dirt riding, 
but they feel a smidge narrow and skittish on some of the gnarlier terrain 
I've discovered since moving here. I have room for 48s, should I dump cash 
- it's a LOT of cash - into Juniper Ridges? 

Joe Bernard 

On Monday, October 9, 2023 at 5:43:19 PM UTC-7 Jason Fuller wrote:

> I'm late to the party, and every angle has already been discussed at 
> length, but I still want to shout out the RH knobbies. I'm very happy with 
> them, but more notably for me is that I've recommended them to some riding 
> buddies and then the good word spread like wildfire and now nearly all my 
> riding buddies within that social circle, which ranges from longtime 
> roadies to newbies to longtime mountain bikers, all absolutely swear by 
> these tires.  None of us have experienced a tire that grips so well on a 
> variety of trail surfaces, rolls fast and predictably on pavement, resists 
> punctures, and feels great (better than other premium Panaracer brands) all 
> at the same time. 
>
> My only non-gushing comments would be that they do have a buzz on 
> pavement, though the tone is more pleasant than most knobbies, and they do 
> tend to throw pea gravel through your fender if you run metal fenders, 
> which is slightly annoying. Definitely pair these with PDW safety tabs if 
> running metal fenders. 
>
>
>
>
> On Monday, 2 October 2023 at 08:26:17 UTC-7 ted.l...@gmail.com wrote:
>
>> I’ve had tires on the brain this last week. I was thinking I might want 
>> to try something a little narrower on my Appaloosa so I’ve been a bit 
>> absorbed with that thought.
>>
>> At the moment I run the SimWorks Super Yummy tire with the black sidewall 
>> in 29x2.25”. I previously had their 26x2.25” tan wall tires on a 26” build 
>> and absolutely loved them on that bike. Unfortunately, in the larger size, 
>> with the sort of riding I do (spirited, urban, all-road) I find the tires 
>> sluggish and a bit unpredictable at times. Combined with the 25mm wide rim 
>> I use, the tires measure to close to 60mm wide.
>>
>> I was thinking about trying to find a tire with a more rounded profile 
>> and something that would be a bit narrower, somewhere in the 44-48mm range 
>> to start.
>>
>> I’ve been looking primarily at the Rene Herse tires. I have a friend who 
>> runs the Pumpkin Ridge (650x42) tire on his bike of a similar purpose and 
>> absolutely loves them. I’ve used the Naches Pass (26x1.8) on another build 
>> and also liked them a lot, but found that despite being the “endurance” 
>> casing, they were very prone to small punctures and didn’t handle the 
>> typical road debris around where I ride very well; this is one of the 
>> reasons I’ve typically stuck with knobbier tires.
>>
>> The ones on my short list are currently the  Manatash Ridge (700x42) and 
>> Oracle Ridge (700x48) tires from RH.
>>
>> I’m curious to know and see what others on the list use and have liked. 
>> If you have pictures, I’d also love to see what they look like 
>> (particularly 42mm on frames like the Appaloosa).
>>
>> — Ted
>>
>

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[RBW] Re: What shoes does your Riv wear?

[Jason Fuller]

I'm late to the party, and every angle has already been discussed at 
length, but I still want to shout out the RH knobbies. I'm very happy with 
them, but more notably for me is that I've recommended them to some riding 
buddies and then the good word spread like wildfire and now nearly all my 
riding buddies within that social circle, which ranges from longtime 
roadies to newbies to longtime mountain bikers, all absolutely swear by 
these tires.  None of us have experienced a tire that grips so well on a 
variety of trail surfaces, rolls fast and predictably on pavement, resists 
punctures, and feels great (better than other premium Panaracer brands) all 
at the same time. 

My only non-gushing comments would be that they do have a buzz on pavement, 
though the tone is more pleasant than most knobbies, and they do tend to 
throw pea gravel through your fender if you run metal fenders, which is 
slightly annoying. Definitely pair these with PDW safety tabs if running 
metal fenders. 




On Monday, 2 October 2023 at 08:26:17 UTC-7 ted.l...@gmail.com wrote:

> I’ve had tires on the brain this last week. I was thinking I might want to 
> try something a little narrower on my Appaloosa so I’ve been a bit absorbed 
> with that thought.
>
> At the moment I run the SimWorks Super Yummy tire with the black sidewall 
> in 29x2.25”. I previously had their 26x2.25” tan wall tires on a 26” build 
> and absolutely loved them on that bike. Unfortunately, in the larger size, 
> with the sort of riding I do (spirited, urban, all-road) I find the tires 
> sluggish and a bit unpredictable at times. Combined with the 25mm wide rim 
> I use, the tires measure to close to 60mm wide.
>
> I was thinking about trying to find a tire with a more rounded profile and 
> something that would be a bit narrower, somewhere in the 44-48mm range to 
> start.
>
> I’ve been looking primarily at the Rene Herse tires. I have a friend who 
> runs the Pumpkin Ridge (650x42) tire on his bike of a similar purpose and 
> absolutely loves them. I’ve used the Naches Pass (26x1.8) on another build 
> and also liked them a lot, but found that despite being the “endurance” 
> casing, they were very prone to small punctures and didn’t handle the 
> typical road debris around where I ride very well; this is one of the 
> reasons I’ve typically stuck with knobbier tires.
>
> The ones on my short list are currently the  Manatash Ridge (700x42) and 
> Oracle Ridge (700x48) tires from RH.
>
> I’m curious to know and see what others on the list use and have liked. If 
> you have pictures, I’d also love to see what they look like (particularly 
> 42mm on frames like the Appaloosa).
>
> — Ted
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: What shoes does your Riv wear?

[Josh Zielinski]

Tubeless vs non tubeless is probably thread drift...  both are fine.  One
gets pinch flats at low pressures (which has a lot of nice applications)
and the other doesn't.  I've had good luck and slight misfortunes with both!

But yeah, all about wider tires and no/nominal knobs with fenders for
anything that's mostly road-ish riding.

Josh

On Tue, Oct 3, 2023, 9:31 AM Wesley  wrote:

> In fact, I think it was Grant (or maybe Sheldon Brown?) who turned me onto
> the idea that wide tires are great, especially when they're NOT knobby. For
> the past 15 years, it's been Panaracer Paselas for my road bike and
> Schwalbe Big Apple/Fat Frank for my commute/errand bike. The idea that
> there are noticeable gains to be had from tubeless or RH tires seems like
> pure hype to me, but I may be wrong. Certainly the Schwalbe tires are crazy
> heavy and that must affect my acceleration. But once I'm up to speed, I
> doubt it matters.
> -Wes
>
> On Tuesday, October 3, 2023 at 8:41:57 AM UTC-7 Jeremy Till wrote:
>
>> I doubt that Grant was intentionally designing his bikes specifically to
>> handle better with knobbier tires. I think it's more a product of his own
>> views of how a bike should handle and the tires that were available/common
>> at the time he designed the bike. On the first point, he's written a few
>> times defending the virtues of geometric trail, perhaps as a response to
>> challenges from Jan-Heine-o-philes who wanted him to design a low trail
>> bike. On the second point, most of the tires we're discussing were nothing
>> but a twinkle in Jan Heine or Panaracer's eyes when the Rambouillet was
>> designed, and I think it probably handles best with 28-32mm road tires
>> because that was considered downright obese for a road bike at the time.
>> For the Clem, certainly that was designed closer to the contemporary golden
>> age of fat tires, but I still remember most of the prototypes wearing
>> something like a Schwalbe Big Ben, which has more of a blockier tread that
>> probably reduces pneumatic trail compared to something like an RH slick.
>>
>> Jeremy Till
>> Sacramento, CA
>>
>> On Monday, October 2, 2023 at 6:46:34 PM UTC-7 ted.l...@gmail.com wrote:
>>
>>> Jeremy,
>>>
>>> You make a good point about the geometric and pneumatic trail and the
>>> possibility that Grant designed his frames around a knobbier, more general
>>> purpose, tire thus building the frames with more geometric trail. I’d love
>>> to ask Grant that question to know if it was happy coincidence that they
>>> ended up that way or if the design choice was really that intentional.
>>>
>>> On Mon, Oct 2, 2023 at 4:22 PM Jeremy Till  wrote:
>>>
 On my Rivendells I've noticed that, irrespective of the surface I'm
 riding on, I actually prefer the handling with larger knobby tires than
 with larger slick tires. This is true on both my Clem H (2016, first-gen)
 with 45-55mm tires and my Rambouillet (green, ~2006 as far as I can tell)
 with 36-38mm tires. My explanation for this is that Grant tends to design
 bikes with larger geometric trail. When you add in the pneumatic trail of
 larger slick tires, the whole thing can feel harder to turn. Knobby tires
 give you the same shock absorption while putting less rubber on the
 pavement, thus reducing the pneumatic trail. Jan Heine has noted this
 effect himself when comparing knobby and slick versions of his tires.

 My Rambouillet current wears RH (actually Compass, they're a few years
 old) Steilacoom 700x38 knobbies. My Clem H has 29x2.2 Specialized Fast
 Traks with the "Control" casing, which is an XC-oriented MTB tire with
 relatively minimal knobs that rolls well on pavement. In my experience
 there is no free lunch when it comes to supple casings and flats. Certainly
 the ride is better with things like the RH standard casing but my rate of
 flatting from glass and thorns goes up. Sealant and tubeless haven't been
 the solution, in my experience, and I run both of my Rivendells with
 tubes.

 Since Patrick was also mentioning them I will say that I've used both
 the 700x42 and 700x38 versions of the Soma Supple Vitesse EX on my Long
 Haul Trucker, which seems to handle better with large slicks than my
 Rivendells. Those are good tires with an acceptable flat rate for me. I
 also tried the 700x38 SL version on my Rambouillet and found that not only
 did I not like the handling, but the flat rate was excessive for me. Note
 that the only difference between the EX and SL Supple Vitesses is the
 thickness of the tread, with the EX having thicker treads. Unlike RH and
 other brands there is no difference in the casing between the lightweight
 and longer wearing versions. I believe that the Shikiro is the same tread
 as the Supple Vitesse EX with a heavier duty casing.

 Jeremy Till
 Sacramento, CA

 On Monday, October 2, 2023 at 8:26:17 AM UTC-7 

Re: [RBW] Re: What shoes does your Riv wear?

[Josh Zielinski]

Excellent take Jeremy!

Ted, I mistakenly thought the RH models mentioned in the original post were
their slick equivalents.  My bad, didn't mean to push GK slicks on you!  In
my experience the other GravelKing options SS and SK were pretty ok but not
the same experience (even on gravelly type stuff) as the slicks with lower
pressures.  Probably a coincidence but I actually got more flats with those
models (I have become more diligent with sealant refreshing as well).

I once had a set of Terravail cannonballs on a bike I sold.  I didn't get a
ton of miles on them but my initial response was that they were very nice
feeling.  Some texture, not too much, but pretty nice all arounder.  Looks
like its available in 700c in 42 and 47.  Mine were light and supple flavor
and I think they were reasonably priced mid pandemic/bike crazed times (I
don't pay more than 50$ for a tire).

Josh



On Tue, Oct 3, 2023, 8:42 AM Jeremy Till  wrote:

> I doubt that Grant was intentionally designing his bikes specifically to
> handle better with knobbier tires. I think it's more a product of his own
> views of how a bike should handle and the tires that were available/common
> at the time he designed the bike. On the first point, he's written a few
> times defending the virtues of geometric trail, perhaps as a response to
> challenges from Jan-Heine-o-philes who wanted him to design a low trail
> bike. On the second point, most of the tires we're discussing were nothing
> but a twinkle in Jan Heine or Panaracer's eyes when the Rambouillet was
> designed, and I think it probably handles best with 28-32mm road tires
> because that was considered downright obese for a road bike at the time.
> For the Clem, certainly that was designed closer to the contemporary golden
> age of fat tires, but I still remember most of the prototypes wearing
> something like a Schwalbe Big Ben, which has more of a blockier tread that
> probably reduces pneumatic trail compared to something like an RH slick.
>
> Jeremy Till
> Sacramento, CA
>
> On Monday, October 2, 2023 at 6:46:34 PM UTC-7 ted.l...@gmail.com wrote:
>
>> Jeremy,
>>
>> You make a good point about the geometric and pneumatic trail and the
>> possibility that Grant designed his frames around a knobbier, more general
>> purpose, tire thus building the frames with more geometric trail. I’d love
>> to ask Grant that question to know if it was happy coincidence that they
>> ended up that way or if the design choice was really that intentional.
>>
>> On Mon, Oct 2, 2023 at 4:22 PM Jeremy Till  wrote:
>>
>>> On my Rivendells I've noticed that, irrespective of the surface I'm
>>> riding on, I actually prefer the handling with larger knobby tires than
>>> with larger slick tires. This is true on both my Clem H (2016, first-gen)
>>> with 45-55mm tires and my Rambouillet (green, ~2006 as far as I can tell)
>>> with 36-38mm tires. My explanation for this is that Grant tends to design
>>> bikes with larger geometric trail. When you add in the pneumatic trail of
>>> larger slick tires, the whole thing can feel harder to turn. Knobby tires
>>> give you the same shock absorption while putting less rubber on the
>>> pavement, thus reducing the pneumatic trail. Jan Heine has noted this
>>> effect himself when comparing knobby and slick versions of his tires.
>>>
>>> My Rambouillet current wears RH (actually Compass, they're a few years
>>> old) Steilacoom 700x38 knobbies. My Clem H has 29x2.2 Specialized Fast
>>> Traks with the "Control" casing, which is an XC-oriented MTB tire with
>>> relatively minimal knobs that rolls well on pavement. In my experience
>>> there is no free lunch when it comes to supple casings and flats. Certainly
>>> the ride is better with things like the RH standard casing but my rate of
>>> flatting from glass and thorns goes up. Sealant and tubeless haven't been
>>> the solution, in my experience, and I run both of my Rivendells with
>>> tubes.
>>>
>>> Since Patrick was also mentioning them I will say that I've used both
>>> the 700x42 and 700x38 versions of the Soma Supple Vitesse EX on my Long
>>> Haul Trucker, which seems to handle better with large slicks than my
>>> Rivendells. Those are good tires with an acceptable flat rate for me. I
>>> also tried the 700x38 SL version on my Rambouillet and found that not only
>>> did I not like the handling, but the flat rate was excessive for me. Note
>>> that the only difference between the EX and SL Supple Vitesses is the
>>> thickness of the tread, with the EX having thicker treads. Unlike RH and
>>> other brands there is no difference in the casing between the lightweight
>>> and longer wearing versions. I believe that the Shikiro is the same tread
>>> as the Supple Vitesse EX with a heavier duty casing.
>>>
>>> Jeremy Till
>>> Sacramento, CA
>>>
>>> On Monday, October 2, 2023 at 8:26:17 AM UTC-7 ted.l...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>
 I’ve had tires on the brain this last week. I was thinking I might want
 to try something a 

Re: [RBW] Re: What shoes does your Riv wear?

[Brian Turner]

After plugging in my info to all three of these calculators, I get basically the same result - within 1 lb psi. SRAM’s loses points with me for only listing 650 and 700 as wheel size values (boo!).On Oct 7, 2023, at 2:23 PM, Ted W  wrote:Thanks for the link, Brian. I’m adding that to the collection of bookmarks under “bicycle related calculators. It’s so funny how they’re all so different given very similar information. It just goes to show you how subjective ride feel can be and how many factors have an effect.I’ve linked the other two calculators below for the curious:Silca calculator: https://silca.cc/pages/sppc-formSRAM calculator: https://axs.sram.com/guides/tire/pressureBetween all of these, Silca has always proven most reliable… but again, it’s highly subjective. I do like that there are additional parameters you can tweak on theirs, though. Jan’s seems a little too cookie cutter.On Sat, Oct 7, 2023 at 10:41 AM Brian Turner  wrote:I think I’ve run probably 5 sets of Rene Herse tires over the years; both with tubes and tubeless. I’ve actually found that I’ve had good luck referring to Jan’s tire pressure recommendations using his calculator, found here:Tire Pressure Calculatorrenehersecycles.comLike I said, I’ve used this and it’s worked pretty well for me, especially because I like to ride my bikes loaded down with gear. I also appreciate the meticulous, scientific approach that Jan takes to cycling. It’s not for everyone, but I kinda like it.On Oct 7, 2023, at 10:30 AM, Patrick Moore  wrote:This is very interesting. I use the extralight Naches Pass at 30-35 and 35-40 f/r depending on load, and I feel no flop or sidewall collapse; not until pressures drop below 20 psi. The NPs do feel more staid, less nimble in turn-in than the 28 mm Elk Pass, this on the same bikes, but not at all squirrelly. They do make those "rubbing" sounds a bit, though.I wonder if front-end geometry has a lot to do with it? I've used the Naches Passes on road customs with, possibly, steeper, more agressive geometry than those ridden by the OPs; one of the bikes was Grant designed and the other is a geometrical and dimensional near-clone of a Grant design.Or rider weight? I'm 170-175, but then I often carry heavy-ish loads on the bike in question.What does feel a bit squirmy, not squirrelly, is the Soma Supple Vitesse SL 48s, even at a relatively hard 25 psi; it's as if the rubber is somehow soft and needs to harden. The tire makes "eraser on plastic" sounds when turning; but far from feeling squirrelly these tires (labeled 48, measure 51 on 35 mm OW rims) have transformed the handling of the Matthews #1 into the much more Riv-Road-like handling I wanted compared to the vagueness in turns of the ultralight 60 mm Big Ones.On Sat, Oct 7, 2023 at 8:08 AM Chris L  wrote:"

felt like the front just flipped over on itself"That's a good description for what mine feels like.  I also notice they get really loud on sharp turns/curves when the tire is inflated to the psi that causes the bad handling.  The front tire doesn't do that when it's aired up very hard, but that largely negates the benefit of having a fat, supple tire.  I could run Big Apples at a much lower pressure and get the cushion effect without the squirrely front end handling, but they are just so heavy and both had a wobble in them, from the day I got them.  Not the first Schwalbe tires I've owned that wobbled, so I'm wary of the entire brand, now. On Friday, October 6, 2023 at 10:44:23 PM UTC-5 ted.l...@gmail.com wrote:That squirrelly feeling is another thing I noticed with the Naches Pass on my Surly. It was actually the cause of a crash I had on that bike. Front end got all squirrelly on me mid corner and it felt like the front just flipped over on itself... I always attributed it to having stretched out the fit on a too-small frame (I’m 6’1” and bought a 54cm Long Haul Trucker to be able to have it in 26” wheels) and the us having shifted my center of gravity too far off the where the frame intended but having now heard a couple people here mention the feeling on the same slick tires, I’m wondering if it’s not the tires on more “touring” geometry frames, that pneumatic vs geometric trail thing that was mentioned earlier. Very interesting indeed!



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Re: [RBW] Re: What shoes does your Riv wear?

[Ted W]

Thanks for the link, Brian. I’m adding that to the collection of bookmarks
under “bicycle related calculators. It’s so funny how they’re all so
different given very similar information. It just goes to show you how
subjective ride feel can be and how many factors have an effect.

I’ve linked the other two calculators below for the curious:

Silca calculator:
https://silca.cc/pages/sppc-form

SRAM calculator:
https://axs.sram.com/guides/tire/pressure

Between all of these, Silca has always proven most reliable… but again,
it’s highly subjective. I do like that there are additional parameters you
can tweak on theirs, though. Jan’s seems a little too cookie cutter.


On Sat, Oct 7, 2023 at 10:41 AM Brian Turner  wrote:

> I think I’ve run probably 5 sets of Rene Herse tires over the years; both
> with tubes and tubeless. I’ve actually found that I’ve had good luck
> referring to Jan’s tire pressure recommendations using his calculator,
> found here:
> Tire Pressure Calculator
> 
> renehersecycles.com
> 
> [image: ReneHerseLogo_r.png]
> 
> 
>
> Like I said, I’ve used this and it’s worked pretty well for me, especially
> because I like to ride my bikes loaded down with gear. I also appreciate
> the meticulous, scientific approach that Jan takes to cycling. It’s not for
> everyone, but I kinda like it.
>
> On Oct 7, 2023, at 10:30 AM, Patrick Moore  wrote:
>
> 
>
> This is very interesting. I use the extralight Naches Pass at 30-35 and
> 35-40 f/r depending on load, and I feel no flop or sidewall collapse; not
> until pressures drop below 20 psi. The NPs do feel more staid, less nimble
> in turn-in than the 28 mm Elk Pass, this on the same bikes, but not at all
> squirrelly. They do make those "rubbing" sounds a bit, though.
>
> I wonder if front-end geometry has a lot to do with it? I've used the
> Naches Passes on road customs with, possibly, steeper, more agressive
> geometry than those ridden by the OPs; one of the bikes was Grant designed
> and the other is a geometrical and dimensional near-clone of a Grant design.
>
> Or rider weight? I'm 170-175, but then I often carry heavy-ish loads on
> the bike in question.
>
> What does feel a bit squirmy, not squirrelly, is the Soma Supple Vitesse
> SL 48s, even at a relatively hard 25 psi; it's as if the rubber is somehow
> soft and needs to harden. The tire makes "eraser on plastic" sounds when
> turning; *but* far from feeling squirrelly these tires (labeled 48,
> measure 51 on 35 mm OW rims) have transformed the handling of the Matthews
> #1 into the much more Riv-Road-like handling I wanted compared to the
> vagueness in turns of the ultralight 60 mm Big Ones.
>
> On Sat, Oct 7, 2023 at 8:08 AM Chris L  wrote:
>
>> *" felt like the front just flipped over on itself"*
>>
>> That's a good description for what mine feels like.  I also notice they
>> get really loud on sharp turns/curves when the tire is inflated to the psi
>> that causes the bad handling.  The front tire doesn't do that when it's
>> aired up very hard, but that largely negates the benefit of having a fat,
>> supple tire.  I could run Big Apples at a much lower pressure and get the
>> cushion effect without the squirrely front end handling, but they are just
>> so heavy and both had a wobble in them, from the day I got them.  Not the
>> first Schwalbe tires I've owned that wobbled, so I'm wary of the entire
>> brand, now.
>>
>> On Friday, October 6, 2023 at 10:44:23 PM UTC-5 ted.l...@gmail.com wrote:
>>
>>> That squirrelly feeling is another thing I noticed with the Naches Pass
>>> on my Surly. It was actually the cause of a crash I had on that bike. Front
>>> end got all squirrelly on me mid corner and it felt like the front just
>>> flipped over on itself... I always attributed it to having stretched out
>>> the fit on a too-small frame (I’m 6’1” and bought a 54cm Long Haul Trucker
>>> to be able to have it in 26” wheels) and the us having shifted my center of
>>> gravity too far off the where the frame intended but having now heard a
>>> couple people here mention the feeling on the same slick tires, I’m
>>> wondering if it’s not the tires on more “touring” geometry frames, that
>>> pneumatic vs geometric trail thing that was mentioned earlier. Very
>>> interesting indeed!
>>>
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Re: [RBW] Re: What shoes does your Riv wear?

[Brian Turner]

I think I’ve run probably 5 sets of Rene Herse tires over the years; both with tubes and tubeless. I’ve actually found that I’ve had good luck referring to Jan’s tire pressure recommendations using his calculator, found here:Tire Pressure Calculatorrenehersecycles.comLike I said, I’ve used this and it’s worked pretty well for me, especially because I like to ride my bikes loaded down with gear. I also appreciate the meticulous, scientific approach that Jan takes to cycling. It’s not for everyone, but I kinda like it.On Oct 7, 2023, at 10:30 AM, Patrick Moore  wrote:This is very interesting. I use the extralight Naches Pass at 30-35 and 35-40 f/r depending on load, and I feel no flop or sidewall collapse; not until pressures drop below 20 psi. The NPs do feel more staid, less nimble in turn-in than the 28 mm Elk Pass, this on the same bikes, but not at all squirrelly. They do make those "rubbing" sounds a bit, though.I wonder if front-end geometry has a lot to do with it? I've used the Naches Passes on road customs with, possibly, steeper, more agressive geometry than those ridden by the OPs; one of the bikes was Grant designed and the other is a geometrical and dimensional near-clone of a Grant design.Or rider weight? I'm 170-175, but then I often carry heavy-ish loads on the bike in question.What does feel a bit squirmy, not squirrelly, is the Soma Supple Vitesse SL 48s, even at a relatively hard 25 psi; it's as if the rubber is somehow soft and needs to harden. The tire makes "eraser on plastic" sounds when turning; but far from feeling squirrelly these tires (labeled 48, measure 51 on 35 mm OW rims) have transformed the handling of the Matthews #1 into the much more Riv-Road-like handling I wanted compared to the vagueness in turns of the ultralight 60 mm Big Ones.On Sat, Oct 7, 2023 at 8:08 AM Chris L  wrote:"

felt like the front just flipped over on itself"That's a good description for what mine feels like.  I also notice they get really loud on sharp turns/curves when the tire is inflated to the psi that causes the bad handling.  The front tire doesn't do that when it's aired up very hard, but that largely negates the benefit of having a fat, supple tire.  I could run Big Apples at a much lower pressure and get the cushion effect without the squirrely front end handling, but they are just so heavy and both had a wobble in them, from the day I got them.  Not the first Schwalbe tires I've owned that wobbled, so I'm wary of the entire brand, now. On Friday, October 6, 2023 at 10:44:23 PM UTC-5 ted.l...@gmail.com wrote:That squirrelly feeling is another thing I noticed with the Naches Pass on my Surly. It was actually the cause of a crash I had on that bike. Front end got all squirrelly on me mid corner and it felt like the front just flipped over on itself... I always attributed it to having stretched out the fit on a too-small frame (I’m 6’1” and bought a 54cm Long Haul Trucker to be able to have it in 26” wheels) and the us having shifted my center of gravity too far off the where the frame intended but having now heard a couple people here mention the feeling on the same slick tires, I’m wondering if it’s not the tires on more “touring” geometry frames, that pneumatic vs geometric trail thing that was mentioned earlier. Very interesting indeed!



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Re: [RBW] Re: What shoes does your Riv wear?

[Patrick Moore]

This is very interesting. I use the extralight Naches Pass at 30-35 and
35-40 f/r depending on load, and I feel no flop or sidewall collapse; not
until pressures drop below 20 psi. The NPs do feel more staid, less nimble
in turn-in than the 28 mm Elk Pass, this on the same bikes, but not at all
squirrelly. They do make those "rubbing" sounds a bit, though.

I wonder if front-end geometry has a lot to do with it? I've used the
Naches Passes on road customs with, possibly, steeper, more agressive
geometry than those ridden by the OPs; one of the bikes was Grant designed
and the other is a geometrical and dimensional near-clone of a Grant design.

Or rider weight? I'm 170-175, but then I often carry heavy-ish loads on the
bike in question.

What does feel a bit squirmy, not squirrelly, is the Soma Supple Vitesse SL
48s, even at a relatively hard 25 psi; it's as if the rubber is somehow
soft and needs to harden. The tire makes "eraser on plastic" sounds when
turning; *but* far from feeling squirrelly these tires (labeled 48, measure
51 on 35 mm OW rims) have transformed the handling of the Matthews #1 into
the much more Riv-Road-like handling I wanted compared to the vagueness in
turns of the ultralight 60 mm Big Ones.

On Sat, Oct 7, 2023 at 8:08 AM Chris L  wrote:

> *" felt like the front just flipped over on itself"*
>
> That's a good description for what mine feels like.  I also notice they
> get really loud on sharp turns/curves when the tire is inflated to the psi
> that causes the bad handling.  The front tire doesn't do that when it's
> aired up very hard, but that largely negates the benefit of having a fat,
> supple tire.  I could run Big Apples at a much lower pressure and get the
> cushion effect without the squirrely front end handling, but they are just
> so heavy and both had a wobble in them, from the day I got them.  Not the
> first Schwalbe tires I've owned that wobbled, so I'm wary of the entire
> brand, now.
>
> On Friday, October 6, 2023 at 10:44:23 PM UTC-5 ted.l...@gmail.com wrote:
>
>> That squirrelly feeling is another thing I noticed with the Naches Pass
>> on my Surly. It was actually the cause of a crash I had on that bike. Front
>> end got all squirrelly on me mid corner and it felt like the front just
>> flipped over on itself... I always attributed it to having stretched out
>> the fit on a too-small frame (I’m 6’1” and bought a 54cm Long Haul Trucker
>> to be able to have it in 26” wheels) and the us having shifted my center of
>> gravity too far off the where the frame intended but having now heard a
>> couple people here mention the feeling on the same slick tires, I’m
>> wondering if it’s not the tires on more “touring” geometry frames, that
>> pneumatic vs geometric trail thing that was mentioned earlier. Very
>> interesting indeed!
>>
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: What shoes does your Riv wear?

[Chris L]

*" felt like the front just flipped over on itself"*

That's a good description for what mine feels like.  I also notice they get 
really loud on sharp turns/curves when the tire is inflated to the psi that 
causes the bad handling.  The front tire doesn't do that when it's aired up 
very hard, but that largely negates the benefit of having a fat, supple 
tire.  I could run Big Apples at a much lower pressure and get the cushion 
effect without the squirrely front end handling, but they are just so heavy 
and both had a wobble in them, from the day I got them.  Not the first 
Schwalbe tires I've owned that wobbled, so I'm wary of the entire brand, 
now. 

On Friday, October 6, 2023 at 10:44:23 PM UTC-5 ted.l...@gmail.com wrote:

> That squirrelly feeling is another thing I noticed with the Naches Pass on 
> my Surly. It was actually the cause of a crash I had on that bike. Front 
> end got all squirrelly on me mid corner and it felt like the front just 
> flipped over on itself... I always attributed it to having stretched out 
> the fit on a too-small frame (I’m 6’1” and bought a 54cm Long Haul Trucker 
> to be able to have it in 26” wheels) and the us having shifted my center of 
> gravity too far off the where the frame intended but having now heard a 
> couple people here mention the feeling on the same slick tires, I’m 
> wondering if it’s not the tires on more “touring” geometry frames, that 
> pneumatic vs geometric trail thing that was mentioned earlier. Very 
> interesting indeed!
>
> On Fri, Oct 6, 2023 at 5:42 PM Chris L  wrote:
>
>> RH Antelope Hill in the Endurance casing on my 54cm Hunqapillar.  I'm a 
>> heavier rider and have to inflate the front to the max of 55 psi to keep it 
>> from feeling squirrely in turns and even then, it sometimes feels off.  Jan 
>> has talked about the effect of psi on cornering with supple tires and that 
>> it's more pronounced with wider tires, so I may try the 48's or even 44's, 
>> next.  
>>
>> I need to get an updated photo with the black grips.  Looks SO MUCH 
>> better than the clear ones.  
>>
>> [image: 54 Hunqapillar.jpg]
>>
>> On Thursday, October 5, 2023 at 9:16:53 PM UTC-5 DavidP wrote:
>>
>>> Paul - From 
>>> https://www.somafab.com/archives/product/supple-vitesse-ex-700c-clincher-tire,
>>>  
>>> original SV sizes were 23, 28, 33, 38, and 42. My interpretation is that 
>>> Soma is continuing to make the 42mm SV and the statement you quoted should 
>>> be read as the available sizes are now 28c to 42c, (23c no longer being 
>>> made).
>>>
>>> Best,
>>> -Dave
>>>
>>> On Thursday, October 5, 2023 at 9:06:07 PM UTC-4 Paul in Dallas wrote:
>>>


 I'm running Soma Supple Vitesse EX in the 700 x 42 on my Sam Hillborne 
 and like them a lot.

 I think 380 g's for that size tire is not bad and the price is good.

 I just saw on the Soma site they are no longer making that size. Here's 
 their verbiage.
 (Sizes: 28c to 42c 23c (no longer made)

 I haven't had any flats yet on them after around 300 to 400 miles.

 In my area I'm always dodging glass.

 I can't figure the mindset of the goofballs that through glass out on 
 the pavement.
 Makes me want to cuss. Well, I do if I roll over it.

 Someone else mentioned the Continental Contact Speed tires.
 I used them on other bikes in a 26" and 700c size and liked them.
 I guess they are discontinued now or at least hard to find. They wore 
 very well for me.

 Perhaps the Continental Contact Urban took over that spot.

 I'm running the Contact Urban on bikes in a 26 x 2.20 and a 700c x 42 
 and they roll really well.
 No flats after several hundred miles.

 I only run with inner tubes in all my bikes ... haven't tried tubeless 
 yet.

 This rolling resistance review guy gave them pretty good marks and a 
 highly recommend status.


 https://www.bicyclerollingresistance.com/tour-reviews/continental-contact-urban

 Paul in Dallas 



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[RBW] Re: What shoes does your Riv wear?

[DavidP]

Paul 
- From 
https://www.somafab.com/archives/product/supple-vitesse-ex-700c-clincher-tire, 
original SV sizes were 23, 28, 33, 38, and 42. My interpretation is that 
Soma is continuing to make the 42mm SV and the statement you quoted should 
be read as the available sizes are now 28c to 42c, (23c no longer being 
made).

Best,
-Dave

On Thursday, October 5, 2023 at 9:06:07 PM UTC-4 Paul in Dallas wrote:

>
>
> I'm running Soma Supple Vitesse EX in the 700 x 42 on my Sam Hillborne 
> and like them a lot.
>
> I think 380 g's for that size tire is not bad and the price is good.
>
> I just saw on the Soma site they are no longer making that size. Here's 
> their verbiage.
> (Sizes: 28c to 42c 23c (no longer made)
>
> I haven't had any flats yet on them after around 300 to 400 miles.
>
> In my area I'm always dodging glass.
>
> I can't figure the mindset of the goofballs that through glass out on the 
> pavement.
> Makes me want to cuss. Well, I do if I roll over it.
>
> Someone else mentioned the Continental Contact Speed tires.
> I used them on other bikes in a 26" and 700c size and liked them.
> I guess they are discontinued now or at least hard to find. They wore very 
> well for me.
>
> Perhaps the Continental Contact Urban took over that spot.
>
> I'm running the Contact Urban on bikes in a 26 x 2.20 and a 700c x 42 and 
> they roll really well.
> No flats after several hundred miles.
>
> I only run with inner tubes in all my bikes ... haven't tried tubeless yet.
>
> This rolling resistance review guy gave them pretty good marks and a 
> highly recommend status.
>
>
> https://www.bicyclerollingresistance.com/tour-reviews/continental-contact-urban
>
> Paul in Dallas 
>
>
>
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: What shoes does your Riv wear?

[John Dewey]

Patrick, no dented rims (fingers crossed) but picked up a NASTY roofing
nail the other day.

SO grateful it — A: didn't pierce my rim — B: was rear & not front. Anyone
out there have a similar nasty object poke a hole in a rim?

Jock

On Thu, Oct 5, 2023 at 10:38 AM Patrick Moore  wrote:

> There's no way you can pump a road tire high enough to prevent a dented
> rim when you hit a sharp-edged pothole (or, around here, 6" expansion
> cracks) at a high enough speed. I've done this myself even with tire
> overinflated.
>
>
> On Wed, Oct 4, 2023 at 8:10 PM Piaw Na(藍俊彪)  wrote:
>
>> ... If you dented the rim the tire bottomed out which meant that the tire
>> was under-inflated for how aggressively you're riding.
>>
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> 
> .
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: What shoes does your Riv wear?

[John Dewey]

In the Conti 5000 camp here @ 32mm. Ram + Ebisu (x2) + Waterford Paramount
 — Saluki @ 38mm Pari-Moto

All comfortable, light, fast, reasonably durable + affordable.

Jock

On Tue, Oct 3, 2023 at 9:14 AM Drew Saunders 
wrote:

> My Quickbeam is wearing Riv Jack Brown 700x33.3, which I over-inflate to
> 80psi so I don't have to inflate as often. It's my commuter. I should
> probably really run them at about 70psi, and fill them more often, but I'm
> lazy.
>
> My 1999 Riv Custom was from when 700x28 were considered "fat meat"
> super-sized monster wide tires, compared to the standard 23mm. I have RH
> 700x28 Chinook Pass on it now, and I think they're more like 27mm. I also
> run those at 80psi, which is a more correct pressure for them and my
> weight. I used to run Riv Rolly-Poly 700x29, which really are 29mm wide. I
> think I could probably fit 31mm tires, so if the RH "Stampede Pass" 700x32
> are also on the narrow side, they should fit. When my current tires wear
> down some more, I'll order the RH "32mm" tires and hope they fit. I've been
> quite happy with RH tires and don't get any more flats than other brands.
> Can't say they're "super supple" but they ride well. If those don't fit,
> I'll search for a pair of 30mm tires.
>
> I have the 26x2.3" RH Humptulips Ridge on my 1998 Ibis, which is their
> dual-purpose knobby for 26" wheels. They're also nowhere near 2.3" wide. I
> had a 2.3" Bontrager on the front and a 2.1" Panaracer (Smoke, I think) on
> the back before, and these are just a wee wider than the 2.1" Panaracer. I
> find the grip to be almost as good as the "real" off-road tires, but the
> road rolling resistance is much lower. My 90's MTB is truly a "Gravel Bike"
> now!
>
> RH slicks don't see to be all that much different to me than any other
> slick, but their dual-purpose knobby does seem very different than any
> other knobby I've ridden.
>
> Drew
>
> On Tuesday, October 3, 2023 at 8:41:57 AM UTC-7 Jeremy Till wrote:
>
>> I doubt that Grant was intentionally designing his bikes specifically to
>> handle better with knobbier tires. I think it's more a product of his own
>> views of how a bike should handle and the tires that were available/common
>> at the time he designed the bike. On the first point, he's written a few
>> times defending the virtues of geometric trail, perhaps as a response to
>> challenges from Jan-Heine-o-philes who wanted him to design a low trail
>> bike. On the second point, most of the tires we're discussing were nothing
>> but a twinkle in Jan Heine or Panaracer's eyes when the Rambouillet was
>> designed, and I think it probably handles best with 28-32mm road tires
>> because that was considered downright obese for a road bike at the time.
>> For the Clem, certainly that was designed closer to the contemporary golden
>> age of fat tires, but I still remember most of the prototypes wearing
>> something like a Schwalbe Big Ben, which has more of a blockier tread that
>> probably reduces pneumatic trail compared to something like an RH slick.
>>
>> Jeremy Till
>> Sacramento, CA
>>
>> On Monday, October 2, 2023 at 6:46:34 PM UTC-7 ted.l...@gmail.com wrote:
>>
>>> Jeremy,
>>>
>>> You make a good point about the geometric and pneumatic trail and the
>>> possibility that Grant designed his frames around a knobbier, more general
>>> purpose, tire thus building the frames with more geometric trail. I’d love
>>> to ask Grant that question to know if it was happy coincidence that they
>>> ended up that way or if the design choice was really that intentional.
>>>
>>> On Mon, Oct 2, 2023 at 4:22 PM Jeremy Till  wrote:
>>>
 On my Rivendells I've noticed that, irrespective of the surface I'm
 riding on, I actually prefer the handling with larger knobby tires than
 with larger slick tires. This is true on both my Clem H (2016, first-gen)
 with 45-55mm tires and my Rambouillet (green, ~2006 as far as I can tell)
 with 36-38mm tires. My explanation for this is that Grant tends to design
 bikes with larger geometric trail. When you add in the pneumatic trail of
 larger slick tires, the whole thing can feel harder to turn. Knobby tires
 give you the same shock absorption while putting less rubber on the
 pavement, thus reducing the pneumatic trail. Jan Heine has noted this
 effect himself when comparing knobby and slick versions of his tires.

 My Rambouillet current wears RH (actually Compass, they're a few years
 old) Steilacoom 700x38 knobbies. My Clem H has 29x2.2 Specialized Fast
 Traks with the "Control" casing, which is an XC-oriented MTB tire with
 relatively minimal knobs that rolls well on pavement. In my experience
 there is no free lunch when it comes to supple casings and flats. Certainly
 the ride is better with things like the RH standard casing but my rate of
 flatting from glass and thorns goes up. Sealant and tubeless haven't been
 the solution, in my experience, and I run both of my 

Re: [RBW] Re: What shoes does your Riv wear?

[Patrick Moore]

There's no way you can pump a road tire high enough to prevent a dented rim
when you hit a sharp-edged pothole (or, around here, 6" expansion cracks)
at a high enough speed. I've done this myself even with tire overinflated.


On Wed, Oct 4, 2023 at 8:10 PM Piaw Na(藍俊彪)  wrote:

> ... If you dented the rim the tire bottomed out which meant that the tire
> was under-inflated for how aggressively you're riding.
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: What shoes does your Riv wear?

[Patrick Moore]

Note that at least some modern sealants work very well in at least some
very thin, supple tires. OS *regular* formula works as well or almost as
well in lightweight tubes (70 gram Schwalbe 559X~23 mm tubes) in paper thin
RH Elk Passes, and in lightweight tubes (100 gram Schwalbe 559/584X42mm
tubes) in paper thin RH Naches Passes, as OS does in fat low pressure paper
thin tires. These paper thin RH (and the original Paris Roubaix "open
clincher) tires without sealant would go no more than 5 miles without a
puncture here in goathead heaven but rarely flat with sealant -- I no
longer buy ~2 boxes or Remas a year and in fact only buy the much more
expensive patch kits from the LBS because of so-infrequent use.

I use OS Endurance in low pressure fat tires but prefer tubes in higher
pressure RH road tires after reading several histories of RH road tires
tires blowing off rims when used tubeless.

On Wed, Oct 4, 2023 at 10:21 AM Ted W  wrote:

> ... Also thought to mention, I do run these tubeless. It's one of my
> concesionssions to modernity on these otherwise retro grouch-y bikes;
> tubeless tires and clipless pedals. I've really come to love the self
> healing ability of sealant filled tires and the luxury of being able to
> repair larger holes with plugs, negating the need for a spare tube but
> still permitting the addition of a tube in my pack for longer self
> supported adventures.
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: What shoes does your Riv wear?

[Eric Marth]

Ted & Scott: I do run tubes in my tires. The Antelopes at around 25lb and 
the Snoqualmies around 37lbs. The Appaloosa is like 37lbs unloaded, not 
sure about the Hillborne. I'm between 172 and 178 depending on the day. I 
run Giant brand tubes because that's what my LBS has in the correct size. I 
think I ran some of the lightweight Schwalbe tubes on my MB-2 with 
extra-light Rat Trap / Humptulips combo and never had a flat (tho I didn't 
ride that bike a ton). 

I have a very cheap Schwinn pump with an accurate pressure gauge. The 
readings match up to my Meiser low pressure gauge exactly. 

I've considered tubeless but haven't tried it. Appaloosa has Cliffhangers 
so no problems there. The Hillborne's on Atlas rims which aren't tubeless 
ready though I know it's been done before. 

On Wednesday, October 4, 2023 at 12:21:50 PM UTC-4 ted.l...@gmail.com wrote:

> Thanks for your thoughts, Eric!
>
> I'm definitely aware of the RH price pain, it's one of the main reasons I 
> hesitated to get the second set after the experience I had with the Naches 
> Pass on my Surly. I believe the total after shipping came close to that 
> $200 mark you mentioned for your Snoqualmie ELs. I'm interested in your 
> suggestion about the Antelope HIll tires, though... It's quite possible 
> that at the time I was riding the Naches Pass tires, I was still new to 
> tubeless setups and may have been running them at a higher pressure and 
> thus exposing them more readily to punctures. I have since begun running my 
> Super Yummys somewhere just above 25lbs (not a super accurate pump) and 
> have noticed that I've had fewer pinhole punctures, and less sealant 
> "weeping" out from between the treads than I did on the previous pair of 
> Super Yummys I had when I was running around 35lbs.
>
> Also thought to mention, I do run these tubeless. It's one of my 
> concesionssions to modernity on these otherwise retro grouch-y bikes; 
> tubeless tires and clipless pedals. I've really come to love the self 
> healing ability of sealant filled tires and the luxury of being able to 
> repair larger holes with plugs, negating the need for a spare tube but 
> still permitting the addition of a tube in my pack for longer self 
> supported adventures. Clipless pedals are a carry over from my criterium 
> racing days. I've ridden them for so long that it feels like I've forgotten 
> something every time I've tried to swap to flats on any bike except a true 
> town cruiser.
>
> On Wed, Oct 4, 2023 at 11:31 AM Eric Marth  wrote:
>
>> Hi Ted — I like Rene Herse tires but refrain from recommending them 
>> simply because they're so darn expensive and the benefits of the casing 
>> might not be appreciated by all. I would just hate for someone to think 
>> "Eric recommended these expensive tires and I don't like 'em!" While I do 
>> enjoy them and stick with them I hesitate to tell anyone "You should run 
>> these tires!" Looks like you have some RH experience. If I was running the 
>> Super Yummys I'd be tempted to try the Antelope Hill...
>>
>> I run the Rene Herse Antelope Hill 700x55 with endurance casing on my 
>> 54cm Appaloosa. I've had one flat in the past two years of riding paved 
>> roads, gravel roads, dirt and trails. They're pretty fun! I enjoy riding 
>> them on long rides with lots of climbing and paved and unpaved surfaces. 
>> Feels great up on my Appaloosa, the Original Steel Couch. I also find all 
>> the volume to be pretty nice running errands and doing stuff around town. 
>>
>> On my Hillborne I run the Rene Herse Snoqualmie Pass 700x44. I've ridden 
>> standard casing and the extra-lights. Much prefer the feel and speed of the 
>> extra-lights though they are a bit more prone to punctures. Had plenty of 
>> flats with the standard casing as well. Almost always from road debris, 
>> glass specifically, though I have picked up thorns and wire. 
>>
>> In terms of feel the RHs are great tires, especially in the EL and 
>> Endurance casings. I think the standard casing is just so-so. And again, 
>> the price is quite painful. I recently got a new set of Snoqualmie ELs for 
>> the Hillborne and it was $200 after shipping. 
>>
>> My sample size is limited, I've only run Rene Herse tires on my 
>> Rivendells. 
>> On Wednesday, October 4, 2023 at 10:10:32 AM UTC-4 thetaper...@gmail.com 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> I just installed "cool weather boots" on my Atlantis, a set of Soma 
>>> Cazadero 700x50. I do love the handling with these tires compared to the 
>>> Soma SV 700x42s that were just on. It feels even more planted and solid 
>>> with the wider rubber, which is great for the time of year when cold and 
>>> wet come into play.
>>>
>>> Nick
>>> Falls Church VA
>>>
>>> On Wednesday, October 4, 2023 at 10:03:34 AM UTC-4 pi...@gmail.com 
>>> wrote:
>>>
 On Tuesday, October 3, 2023 at 3:27:09 PM UTC-7 divis...@gmail.com 
 wrote:


 Over the last few months, I've flatted three or four times on the RHes; 
 clearly, the 

Re: [RBW] Re: What shoes does your Riv wear?

[Ted W]

Thanks for your thoughts, Eric!

I'm definitely aware of the RH price pain, it's one of the main reasons I
hesitated to get the second set after the experience I had with the Naches
Pass on my Surly. I believe the total after shipping came close to that
$200 mark you mentioned for your Snoqualmie ELs. I'm interested in your
suggestion about the Antelope HIll tires, though... It's quite possible
that at the time I was riding the Naches Pass tires, I was still new to
tubeless setups and may have been running them at a higher pressure and
thus exposing them more readily to punctures. I have since begun running my
Super Yummys somewhere just above 25lbs (not a super accurate pump) and
have noticed that I've had fewer pinhole punctures, and less sealant
"weeping" out from between the treads than I did on the previous pair of
Super Yummys I had when I was running around 35lbs.

Also thought to mention, I do run these tubeless. It's one of my
concesionssions to modernity on these otherwise retro grouch-y bikes;
tubeless tires and clipless pedals. I've really come to love the self
healing ability of sealant filled tires and the luxury of being able to
repair larger holes with plugs, negating the need for a spare tube but
still permitting the addition of a tube in my pack for longer self
supported adventures. Clipless pedals are a carry over from my criterium
racing days. I've ridden them for so long that it feels like I've forgotten
something every time I've tried to swap to flats on any bike except a true
town cruiser.

On Wed, Oct 4, 2023 at 11:31 AM Eric Marth  wrote:

> Hi Ted — I like Rene Herse tires but refrain from recommending them simply
> because they're so darn expensive and the benefits of the casing might not
> be appreciated by all. I would just hate for someone to think "Eric
> recommended these expensive tires and I don't like 'em!" While I do enjoy
> them and stick with them I hesitate to tell anyone "You should run these
> tires!" Looks like you have some RH experience. If I was running the Super
> Yummys I'd be tempted to try the Antelope Hill...
>
> I run the Rene Herse Antelope Hill 700x55 with endurance casing on my 54cm
> Appaloosa. I've had one flat in the past two years of riding paved roads,
> gravel roads, dirt and trails. They're pretty fun! I enjoy riding them on
> long rides with lots of climbing and paved and unpaved surfaces. Feels
> great up on my Appaloosa, the Original Steel Couch. I also find all the
> volume to be pretty nice running errands and doing stuff around town.
>
> On my Hillborne I run the Rene Herse Snoqualmie Pass 700x44. I've ridden
> standard casing and the extra-lights. Much prefer the feel and speed of the
> extra-lights though they are a bit more prone to punctures. Had plenty of
> flats with the standard casing as well. Almost always from road debris,
> glass specifically, though I have picked up thorns and wire.
>
> In terms of feel the RHs are great tires, especially in the EL and
> Endurance casings. I think the standard casing is just so-so. And again,
> the price is quite painful. I recently got a new set of Snoqualmie ELs for
> the Hillborne and it was $200 after shipping.
>
> My sample size is limited, I've only run Rene Herse tires on my
> Rivendells.
> On Wednesday, October 4, 2023 at 10:10:32 AM UTC-4 thetaper...@gmail.com
> wrote:
>
>> I just installed "cool weather boots" on my Atlantis, a set of Soma
>> Cazadero 700x50. I do love the handling with these tires compared to the
>> Soma SV 700x42s that were just on. It feels even more planted and solid
>> with the wider rubber, which is great for the time of year when cold and
>> wet come into play.
>>
>> Nick
>> Falls Church VA
>>
>> On Wednesday, October 4, 2023 at 10:03:34 AM UTC-4 pi...@gmail.com wrote:
>>
>>> On Tuesday, October 3, 2023 at 3:27:09 PM UTC-7 divis...@gmail.com
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> Over the last few months, I've flatted three or four times on the RHes;
>>> clearly, the tread has worn thin. I was discussing the issue with a
>>> repairman at one of the local bike kitchens. He mentioned that GK Slicks
>>> hold up fine, but it takes a while for the rubber to cure - several months,
>>> or several hundred miles. Although that's in keeping with bike tire
>>> traditions ("inflate your new tubulars on a rim and age them over the
>>> winter" et al), it had never occurred to me that my shiny-new tires might
>>> take a period of aging to be fully ready for road use. I've reinstalled the
>>> GKs and put about 250 miles on them without incident. Maybe the intervening
>>> 20 months has aged the rubber enough to stand up to small road hazards?
>>> Fingers crossed...
>>>
>>>
>>> That seems unlikely to be true. As for your unluckiness with flats, I
>>> think that's just a run of bad luck (running over glass at night). I have
>>> not noticed that new tires puncture any less frequently than old tires. I
>>> regularly run tires until the rubber wears away and I can see the nylon
>>> cords below.  

Re: [RBW] Re: What shoes does your Riv wear?

[Coal Bee Rye Anne]

Continental Mountain King 29x2.2" on my Clem H - I wanted something with 
widely spaced knobs for better bite and confidence on some of our local 
mixed condition trails to replace the stock Kendas with smoother inverted 
tread.  I just picked them up during an REI sale a couple years ago.  Many 
of the main sections of our local trails have been paved since I made the 
tire change, to make them generally more accessible,  and has made the 
knobs feel excessive/unnecessary/ineffecient at times... until the unpaved 
conditions worsen after any series of storms and then I appreciate the 
knobs all over again!  

I've thought something like the SimWorks Homage would be worth trying but 
haven't necessarily wanted to go as narrow as 700x43 on the Clem.  We have 
an older and cheap Kenda 26x1.95" on one of my spouses bikes that is 
similar to the Homage (slick center with tall and widely spaced knobs on 
the sides only) and they seem to work well in our local parks so been 
thinking I'd at least get some of the 26" Homage (as replacements for the 
Kendas and also for my own 90's rigid MTB that's back in use after a long 
hiatus.)

I recall Schwalbe Thunder Burts receiving a lot of praise for striking a 
good balance between on and off road usage but have never personally used 
them and not sure what variety of them are even still available (and I've 
personally been somewhat overwhelmed with the number of Schwalbe variations 
within a single tire model.) Although, I did like one of their 700x35 Sammy 
Slick folding bead models on my more road oriented bikes but after a 
sidewall cut I packed them away as emergency spares (reminds me I still 
meant to try and repair the cut.)  

I replaced those Schwalbes with 700x32 GravelKings that I found in some of 
the fun colors (Pink SK and purple SS.)  On the same wheels I have also 
used Challenge Chicane 700x33mm 'open tubulars' which are just folding bead 
clinchers but supposedly with same sidewall carcass as their tubulars, I 
think.  I know some have reported mounting issues with these or similar 
Challenge tires and I was fortunate to have no issue with my own wheels but 
could note that whatever cotton/poly or other thread blend they use on the 
sidewalls, these feel so different (in texture) than any other tire I've 
used.  Different to the point it was actually pleasant to install them or 
repair flats (like sliding your thumbs along soft, velvety cotton canvas 
vs. gummy rubber!)  I think Challenge ended up making wider gravel options 
with the same kind of sideknobs as the Chicane so those are also on my 
shortlist for eventual replacements to research but at around $100/each at 
retail the last I looked I haven't been able to bring myself to even 
consider them again.  I think I scored them for around $50/each at discount 
when first getting my hands on the Chicanes and have pretty much stuck to 
$50/tire as a personal limit.

On my current 'basket bike' I have Continental SpeedRide or Contact Speed 
with a labeled 700x42mm but that measures an actual 38mm and maxes out 
clearance on this old 27">700c road bike>townie conversion.

On Wednesday, October 4, 2023 at 10:10:32 AM UTC-4 thetaper...@gmail.com 
wrote:

> I just installed "cool weather boots" on my Atlantis, a set of Soma 
> Cazadero 700x50. I do love the handling with these tires compared to the 
> Soma SV 700x42s that were just on. It feels even more planted and solid 
> with the wider rubber, which is great for the time of year when cold and 
> wet come into play.
>
> Nick
> Falls Church VA
>
> On Wednesday, October 4, 2023 at 10:03:34 AM UTC-4 pi...@gmail.com wrote:
>
>> On Tuesday, October 3, 2023 at 3:27:09 PM UTC-7 divis...@gmail.com wrote:
>>
>>
>> Over the last few months, I've flatted three or four times on the RHes; 
>> clearly, the tread has worn thin. I was discussing the issue with a 
>> repairman at one of the local bike kitchens. He mentioned that GK Slicks 
>> hold up fine, but it takes a while for the rubber to cure - several months, 
>> or several hundred miles. Although that's in keeping with bike tire 
>> traditions ("inflate your new tubulars on a rim and age them over the 
>> winter" et al), it had never occurred to me that my shiny-new tires might 
>> take a period of aging to be fully ready for road use. I've reinstalled the 
>> GKs and put about 250 miles on them without incident. Maybe the intervening 
>> 20 months has aged the rubber enough to stand up to small road hazards? 
>> Fingers crossed...
>>
>>
>> That seems unlikely to be true. As for your unluckiness with flats, I 
>> think that's just a run of bad luck (running over glass at night). I have 
>> not noticed that new tires puncture any less frequently than old tires. I 
>> regularly run tires until the rubber wears away and I can see the nylon 
>> cords below.  What I do notice is that some tires (e.g., the Continental 
>> tires) have so much tread on them that the sidewalls are more likely to die 
>> than the 

Re: [RBW] Re: What shoes does your Riv wear?

[greenteadrinkers]

Eric - are you riding tubeless on your RH tires? If not, which tubes do you 
prefer?
- Scott

On Wednesday, October 4, 2023 at 11:31:45 AM UTC-4 eric...@gmail.com wrote:

> Hi Ted — I like Rene Herse tires but refrain from recommending them simply 
> because they're so darn expensive and the benefits of the casing might not 
> be appreciated by all. I would just hate for someone to think "Eric 
> recommended these expensive tires and I don't like 'em!" While I do enjoy 
> them and stick with them I hesitate to tell anyone "You should run these 
> tires!" Looks like you have some RH experience. If I was running the Super 
> Yummys I'd be tempted to try the Antelope Hill...
>
> I run the Rene Herse Antelope Hill 700x55 with endurance casing on my 54cm 
> Appaloosa. I've had one flat in the past two years of riding paved roads, 
> gravel roads, dirt and trails. They're pretty fun! I enjoy riding them on 
> long rides with lots of climbing and paved and unpaved surfaces. Feels 
> great up on my Appaloosa, the Original Steel Couch. I also find all the 
> volume to be pretty nice running errands and doing stuff around town. 
>
> On my Hillborne I run the Rene Herse Snoqualmie Pass 700x44. I've ridden 
> standard casing and the extra-lights. Much prefer the feel and speed of the 
> extra-lights though they are a bit more prone to punctures. Had plenty of 
> flats with the standard casing as well. Almost always from road debris, 
> glass specifically, though I have picked up thorns and wire. 
>
> In terms of feel the RHs are great tires, especially in the EL and 
> Endurance casings. I think the standard casing is just so-so. And again, 
> the price is quite painful. I recently got a new set of Snoqualmie ELs for 
> the Hillborne and it was $200 after shipping. 
>
> My sample size is limited, I've only run Rene Herse tires on my 
> Rivendells. 
> On Wednesday, October 4, 2023 at 10:10:32 AM UTC-4 thetaper...@gmail.com 
> wrote:
>
>> I just installed "cool weather boots" on my Atlantis, a set of Soma 
>> Cazadero 700x50. I do love the handling with these tires compared to the 
>> Soma SV 700x42s that were just on. It feels even more planted and solid 
>> with the wider rubber, which is great for the time of year when cold and 
>> wet come into play.
>>
>> Nick
>> Falls Church VA
>>
>> On Wednesday, October 4, 2023 at 10:03:34 AM UTC-4 pi...@gmail.com wrote:
>>
>>> On Tuesday, October 3, 2023 at 3:27:09 PM UTC-7 divis...@gmail.com 
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> Over the last few months, I've flatted three or four times on the RHes; 
>>> clearly, the tread has worn thin. I was discussing the issue with a 
>>> repairman at one of the local bike kitchens. He mentioned that GK Slicks 
>>> hold up fine, but it takes a while for the rubber to cure - several months, 
>>> or several hundred miles. Although that's in keeping with bike tire 
>>> traditions ("inflate your new tubulars on a rim and age them over the 
>>> winter" et al), it had never occurred to me that my shiny-new tires might 
>>> take a period of aging to be fully ready for road use. I've reinstalled the 
>>> GKs and put about 250 miles on them without incident. Maybe the intervening 
>>> 20 months has aged the rubber enough to stand up to small road hazards? 
>>> Fingers crossed...
>>>
>>>
>>> That seems unlikely to be true. As for your unluckiness with flats, I 
>>> think that's just a run of bad luck (running over glass at night). I have 
>>> not noticed that new tires puncture any less frequently than old tires. I 
>>> regularly run tires until the rubber wears away and I can see the nylon 
>>> cords below.  What I do notice is that some tires (e.g., the Continental 
>>> tires) have so much tread on them that the sidewalls are more likely to die 
>>> than the tread to wear out. But that may be that I ride more off pavement 
>>> on my tires than most, giving more opportunities to have cuts on the tire.
>>>  
>>>
>>

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Re: [RBW] Re: What shoes does your Riv wear?

[Eric Marth]

Hi Ted — I like Rene Herse tires but refrain from recommending them simply 
because they're so darn expensive and the benefits of the casing might not 
be appreciated by all. I would just hate for someone to think "Eric 
recommended these expensive tires and I don't like 'em!" While I do enjoy 
them and stick with them I hesitate to tell anyone "You should run these 
tires!" Looks like you have some RH experience. If I was running the Super 
Yummys I'd be tempted to try the Antelope Hill...

I run the Rene Herse Antelope Hill 700x55 with endurance casing on my 54cm 
Appaloosa. I've had one flat in the past two years of riding paved roads, 
gravel roads, dirt and trails. They're pretty fun! I enjoy riding them on 
long rides with lots of climbing and paved and unpaved surfaces. Feels 
great up on my Appaloosa, the Original Steel Couch. I also find all the 
volume to be pretty nice running errands and doing stuff around town. 

On my Hillborne I run the Rene Herse Snoqualmie Pass 700x44. I've ridden 
standard casing and the extra-lights. Much prefer the feel and speed of the 
extra-lights though they are a bit more prone to punctures. Had plenty of 
flats with the standard casing as well. Almost always from road debris, 
glass specifically, though I have picked up thorns and wire. 

In terms of feel the RHs are great tires, especially in the EL and 
Endurance casings. I think the standard casing is just so-so. And again, 
the price is quite painful. I recently got a new set of Snoqualmie ELs for 
the Hillborne and it was $200 after shipping. 

My sample size is limited, I've only run Rene Herse tires on my Rivendells. 
On Wednesday, October 4, 2023 at 10:10:32 AM UTC-4 thetaper...@gmail.com 
wrote:

> I just installed "cool weather boots" on my Atlantis, a set of Soma 
> Cazadero 700x50. I do love the handling with these tires compared to the 
> Soma SV 700x42s that were just on. It feels even more planted and solid 
> with the wider rubber, which is great for the time of year when cold and 
> wet come into play.
>
> Nick
> Falls Church VA
>
> On Wednesday, October 4, 2023 at 10:03:34 AM UTC-4 pi...@gmail.com wrote:
>
>> On Tuesday, October 3, 2023 at 3:27:09 PM UTC-7 divis...@gmail.com wrote:
>>
>>
>> Over the last few months, I've flatted three or four times on the RHes; 
>> clearly, the tread has worn thin. I was discussing the issue with a 
>> repairman at one of the local bike kitchens. He mentioned that GK Slicks 
>> hold up fine, but it takes a while for the rubber to cure - several months, 
>> or several hundred miles. Although that's in keeping with bike tire 
>> traditions ("inflate your new tubulars on a rim and age them over the 
>> winter" et al), it had never occurred to me that my shiny-new tires might 
>> take a period of aging to be fully ready for road use. I've reinstalled the 
>> GKs and put about 250 miles on them without incident. Maybe the intervening 
>> 20 months has aged the rubber enough to stand up to small road hazards? 
>> Fingers crossed...
>>
>>
>> That seems unlikely to be true. As for your unluckiness with flats, I 
>> think that's just a run of bad luck (running over glass at night). I have 
>> not noticed that new tires puncture any less frequently than old tires. I 
>> regularly run tires until the rubber wears away and I can see the nylon 
>> cords below.  What I do notice is that some tires (e.g., the Continental 
>> tires) have so much tread on them that the sidewalls are more likely to die 
>> than the tread to wear out. But that may be that I ride more off pavement 
>> on my tires than most, giving more opportunities to have cuts on the tire.
>>  
>>
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: What shoes does your Riv wear?

[Nick A.]

I just installed "cool weather boots" on my Atlantis, a set of Soma 
Cazadero 700x50. I do love the handling with these tires compared to the 
Soma SV 700x42s that were just on. It feels even more planted and solid 
with the wider rubber, which is great for the time of year when cold and 
wet come into play.

Nick
Falls Church VA

On Wednesday, October 4, 2023 at 10:03:34 AM UTC-4 pi...@gmail.com wrote:

> On Tuesday, October 3, 2023 at 3:27:09 PM UTC-7 divis...@gmail.com wrote:
>
>
> Over the last few months, I've flatted three or four times on the RHes; 
> clearly, the tread has worn thin. I was discussing the issue with a 
> repairman at one of the local bike kitchens. He mentioned that GK Slicks 
> hold up fine, but it takes a while for the rubber to cure - several months, 
> or several hundred miles. Although that's in keeping with bike tire 
> traditions ("inflate your new tubulars on a rim and age them over the 
> winter" et al), it had never occurred to me that my shiny-new tires might 
> take a period of aging to be fully ready for road use. I've reinstalled the 
> GKs and put about 250 miles on them without incident. Maybe the intervening 
> 20 months has aged the rubber enough to stand up to small road hazards? 
> Fingers crossed...
>
>
> That seems unlikely to be true. As for your unluckiness with flats, I 
> think that's just a run of bad luck (running over glass at night). I have 
> not noticed that new tires puncture any less frequently than old tires. I 
> regularly run tires until the rubber wears away and I can see the nylon 
> cords below.  What I do notice is that some tires (e.g., the Continental 
> tires) have so much tread on them that the sidewalls are more likely to die 
> than the tread to wear out. But that may be that I ride more off pavement 
> on my tires than most, giving more opportunities to have cuts on the tire.
>  
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: What shoes does your Riv wear?

[Piaw Na]

On Tuesday, October 3, 2023 at 3:27:09 PM UTC-7 divis...@gmail.com wrote:


Over the last few months, I've flatted three or four times on the RHes; 
clearly, the tread has worn thin. I was discussing the issue with a 
repairman at one of the local bike kitchens. He mentioned that GK Slicks 
hold up fine, but it takes a while for the rubber to cure - several months, 
or several hundred miles. Although that's in keeping with bike tire 
traditions ("inflate your new tubulars on a rim and age them over the 
winter" et al), it had never occurred to me that my shiny-new tires might 
take a period of aging to be fully ready for road use. I've reinstalled the 
GKs and put about 250 miles on them without incident. Maybe the intervening 
20 months has aged the rubber enough to stand up to small road hazards? 
Fingers crossed...


That seems unlikely to be true. As for your unluckiness with flats, I think 
that's just a run of bad luck (running over glass at night). I have not 
noticed that new tires puncture any less frequently than old tires. I 
regularly run tires until the rubber wears away and I can see the nylon 
cords below.  What I do notice is that some tires (e.g., the Continental 
tires) have so much tread on them that the sidewalls are more likely to die 
than the tread to wear out. But that may be that I ride more off pavement 
on my tires than most, giving more opportunities to have cuts on the tire.
 

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Re: [RBW] Re: What shoes does your Riv wear?

[m f]

Panaracer Pro Tite for me. Found most other tires (like Gravel Kings and 
Rene Herse) good, but more aspirational about the riding I “could do” 
versus what I “really do”. I’m burned out on tan walls right now, so black 
wins for me.



On Tuesday, October 3, 2023 at 5:27:09 PM UTC-5 divis...@gmail.com wrote:

> GK Slicks and Compass/RH slicks do get pinhole punctures, but tire 
> pressure and tire age are both factors. All the Compass/RH tires I've ever 
> ridden have been acquired used (I have a NIP Babyshoe Pass that I have yet 
> to try), so the tread had cured at least a little bit before I got them. I 
> have a set of Stampede Pass standards on my gofast wheelset that's rotated 
> between four road bikes; I've put at least 2000 miles on them on city 
> streets over the last 10 or so years, with two total flats. I'm typically 
> running them at around 70 PSI, give or take.
>
> Inspired by the longevity of these tires, I bought a new set of 700x35 GK 
> Slicks (the weight is officially lighter than the BJP standards and heavier 
> than the BJP extralights) for my Trek 720 pack mule, on the grounds that 
> they were structurally identical to the corresponding RHes at half the 
> price. I had ridden that tire set for about 500 miles (65-70 PSI) with one 
> flat (rode over a carpet tack standing straight up on a poorly-lit street; 
> an act of Road God), when I had a dramatic failure in a Christmas Eve night 
> debacle, with three flats from glass slivers in a single block. Once I'd 
> gotten the bike home, I stripped the GKs off for bad hoodoo, and replaced 
> them with a set of used BJPs I'd had in my parts box as a replacement for 
> the SPs on the gofast wheelset. The reliability difference was dramatic. 
> Running at the same 65-70 PSI, I rode those used RH tires for 18 months and 
> nearly 3000 miles before the next flat.
>
> Over the last few months, I've flatted three or four times on the RHes; 
> clearly, the tread has worn thin. I was discussing the issue with a 
> repairman at one of the local bike kitchens. He mentioned that GK Slicks 
> hold up fine, but it takes a while for the rubber to cure - several months, 
> or several hundred miles. Although that's in keeping with bike tire 
> traditions ("inflate your new tubulars on a rim and age them over the 
> winter" et al), it had never occurred to me that my shiny-new tires might 
> take a period of aging to be fully ready for road use. I've reinstalled the 
> GKs and put about 250 miles on them without incident. Maybe the intervening 
> 20 months has aged the rubber enough to stand up to small road hazards? 
> Fingers crossed...
>
> Peter "once bit" Adler
> Berkeley, CA
>
>
> On Monday, October 2, 2023 at 6:40:51 PM UTC-7 ted.l...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> Regarding the Gravel Kings I had the 32mm SS tires on my road bike for a 
> time and they did feel nice. My only complaint about them is the same as 
> with the smooth RH tires; they get little pinhole punctures.
>
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: What shoes does your Riv wear?

[Peter Adler]

GK Slicks and Compass/RH slicks do get pinhole punctures, but tire pressure 
and tire age are both factors. All the Compass/RH tires I've ever ridden 
have been acquired used (I have a NIP Babyshoe Pass that I have yet to 
try), so the tread had cured at least a little bit before I got them. I 
have a set of Stampede Pass standards on my gofast wheelset that's rotated 
between four road bikes; I've put at least 2000 miles on them on city 
streets over the last 10 or so years, with two total flats. I'm typically 
running them at around 70 PSI, give or take.

Inspired by the longevity of these tires, I bought a new set of 700x35 GK 
Slicks (the weight is officially lighter than the BJP standards and heavier 
than the BJP extralights) for my Trek 720 pack mule, on the grounds that 
they were structurally identical to the corresponding RHes at half the 
price. I had ridden that tire set for about 500 miles (65-70 PSI) with one 
flat (rode over a carpet tack standing straight up on a poorly-lit street; 
an act of Road God), when I had a dramatic failure in a Christmas Eve night 
debacle, with three flats from glass slivers in a single block. Once I'd 
gotten the bike home, I stripped the GKs off for bad hoodoo, and replaced 
them with a set of used BJPs I'd had in my parts box as a replacement for 
the SPs on the gofast wheelset. The reliability difference was dramatic. 
Running at the same 65-70 PSI, I rode those used RH tires for 18 months and 
nearly 3000 miles before the next flat.

Over the last few months, I've flatted three or four times on the RHes; 
clearly, the tread has worn thin. I was discussing the issue with a 
repairman at one of the local bike kitchens. He mentioned that GK Slicks 
hold up fine, but it takes a while for the rubber to cure - several months, 
or several hundred miles. Although that's in keeping with bike tire 
traditions ("inflate your new tubulars on a rim and age them over the 
winter" et al), it had never occurred to me that my shiny-new tires might 
take a period of aging to be fully ready for road use. I've reinstalled the 
GKs and put about 250 miles on them without incident. Maybe the intervening 
20 months has aged the rubber enough to stand up to small road hazards? 
Fingers crossed...

Peter "once bit" Adler
Berkeley, CA

On Monday, October 2, 2023 at 6:40:51 PM UTC-7 ted.l...@gmail.com wrote:

Regarding the Gravel Kings I had the 32mm SS tires on my road bike for a 
time and they did feel nice. My only complaint about them is the same as 
with the smooth RH tires; they get little pinhole punctures.

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Re: [RBW] Re: What shoes does your Riv wear?

[Patrick Moore]

As with gearing and saddles, so with tires; tastes vary vastly. I know
experienced riders who can't be bothered to figure out their gears; if they
can find a gear that is pretty good in most riding situations, they're
happy -- they look blank when you ask them what rings and cogs they are
using. Likewise with saddles: some love B 17s, others dislike them after
much use.

I used the Big Apple for years and miles, 559 and 622, and for a very
durable and flat resistant tire they roll very well indeed. Back when I was
using up a box and a half or more (each box has 100 patches) of Remas each
year I rarely had to patch tubes in my Big Apples because they'd resist
100% of goatheads when riding on dirt and 95% (those are metaphors, not
measurements) on pavement). Recall often coming out of the bosque trails
and skimming scores if not hundreds of goatheads off f and r Big Apples
before hitting the pavement.

But the light version of the similarly sized Big One is day compared to the
Big Apple's night. Schwalbe said it was their fastest rolling tire of all,
including racing tires, back when they first came out. And: 450 digitally
honest grams for a new (new!) 622 X true 60 mm tire! Versus 900 for the BA,
800 for the "Liteskin" version.

And the RH 26 X labeled 1.25 Elk Pass, 27 to 29 mm on road width rims. I
switched to these from the very good Michelin Pro Race 4s, these in turn
better than the Conti Grands Prix of the time (funny, retrospect, the MPR4
was about like the ~2000-era Specialized 26 X 1" Turbo); sorry,  no
contest, the EP just require less effort to maintain a given cadence (and
speed) in given gears in given conditions, repeatedly over the years.

I used 26 X 1.25 Paselas, non-Tourguard, light at 240 grams (a wee bit
fatter at about 30 mm vs 27-29 mm for the EPs) but tho' not bad, they rate
more or less like the 1.35" Kojaks with puncture belts, these in turn much
like the Jack Brown Greens on my 2010 Sam Hillborne; decent but the EPs are
altogether on a different level; together with the lightest Big Ones the
best rolling tires I've used (tho' I'm still trying to decide if the Soma
Supple Vitesse SL is as good or only nearly as good). The extralight Naches
Passes don't "feel" as fast-rolling as the Elk Passes but they certainly
feel faster than Kojaks or those Paselas, or than Tioga City Slickers or
Fatboys; perhaps like the Michelin Pro Race 4s and Turbos.


On Tue, Oct 3, 2023 at 10:31 AM Wesley  wrote:

> In fact, I think it was Grant (or maybe Sheldon Brown?) who turned me onto
> the idea that wide tires are great, especially when they're NOT knobby. For
> the past 15 years, it's been Panaracer Paselas for my road bike and
> Schwalbe Big Apple/Fat Frank for my commute/errand bike. The idea that
> there are noticeable gains to be had from tubeless or RH tires seems like
> pure hype to me, but I may be wrong. Certainly the Schwalbe tires are crazy
> heavy and that must affect my acceleration. But once I'm up to speed, I
> doubt it matters.
> -Wes
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: What shoes does your Riv wear?

[Wesley]

In fact, I think it was Grant (or maybe Sheldon Brown?) who turned me onto 
the idea that wide tires are great, especially when they're NOT knobby. For 
the past 15 years, it's been Panaracer Paselas for my road bike and 
Schwalbe Big Apple/Fat Frank for my commute/errand bike. The idea that 
there are noticeable gains to be had from tubeless or RH tires seems like 
pure hype to me, but I may be wrong. Certainly the Schwalbe tires are crazy 
heavy and that must affect my acceleration. But once I'm up to speed, I 
doubt it matters.
-Wes

On Tuesday, October 3, 2023 at 8:41:57 AM UTC-7 Jeremy Till wrote:

> I doubt that Grant was intentionally designing his bikes specifically to 
> handle better with knobbier tires. I think it's more a product of his own 
> views of how a bike should handle and the tires that were available/common 
> at the time he designed the bike. On the first point, he's written a few 
> times defending the virtues of geometric trail, perhaps as a response to 
> challenges from Jan-Heine-o-philes who wanted him to design a low trail 
> bike. On the second point, most of the tires we're discussing were nothing 
> but a twinkle in Jan Heine or Panaracer's eyes when the Rambouillet was 
> designed, and I think it probably handles best with 28-32mm road tires 
> because that was considered downright obese for a road bike at the time. 
> For the Clem, certainly that was designed closer to the contemporary golden 
> age of fat tires, but I still remember most of the prototypes wearing 
> something like a Schwalbe Big Ben, which has more of a blockier tread that 
> probably reduces pneumatic trail compared to something like an RH slick. 
>
> Jeremy Till 
> Sacramento, CA
>
> On Monday, October 2, 2023 at 6:46:34 PM UTC-7 ted.l...@gmail.com wrote:
>
>> Jeremy,
>>
>> You make a good point about the geometric and pneumatic trail and the 
>> possibility that Grant designed his frames around a knobbier, more general 
>> purpose, tire thus building the frames with more geometric trail. I’d love 
>> to ask Grant that question to know if it was happy coincidence that they 
>> ended up that way or if the design choice was really that intentional.
>>
>> On Mon, Oct 2, 2023 at 4:22 PM Jeremy Till  wrote:
>>
>>> On my Rivendells I've noticed that, irrespective of the surface I'm 
>>> riding on, I actually prefer the handling with larger knobby tires than 
>>> with larger slick tires. This is true on both my Clem H (2016, first-gen) 
>>> with 45-55mm tires and my Rambouillet (green, ~2006 as far as I can tell) 
>>> with 36-38mm tires. My explanation for this is that Grant tends to design 
>>> bikes with larger geometric trail. When you add in the pneumatic trail of 
>>> larger slick tires, the whole thing can feel harder to turn. Knobby tires 
>>> give you the same shock absorption while putting less rubber on the 
>>> pavement, thus reducing the pneumatic trail. Jan Heine has noted this 
>>> effect himself when comparing knobby and slick versions of his tires. 
>>>
>>> My Rambouillet current wears RH (actually Compass, they're a few years 
>>> old) Steilacoom 700x38 knobbies. My Clem H has 29x2.2 Specialized Fast 
>>> Traks with the "Control" casing, which is an XC-oriented MTB tire with 
>>> relatively minimal knobs that rolls well on pavement. In my experience 
>>> there is no free lunch when it comes to supple casings and flats. Certainly 
>>> the ride is better with things like the RH standard casing but my rate of 
>>> flatting from glass and thorns goes up. Sealant and tubeless haven't been 
>>> the solution, in my experience, and I run both of my Rivendells with 
>>> tubes.  
>>>
>>> Since Patrick was also mentioning them I will say that I've used both 
>>> the 700x42 and 700x38 versions of the Soma Supple Vitesse EX on my Long 
>>> Haul Trucker, which seems to handle better with large slicks than my 
>>> Rivendells. Those are good tires with an acceptable flat rate for me. I 
>>> also tried the 700x38 SL version on my Rambouillet and found that not only 
>>> did I not like the handling, but the flat rate was excessive for me. Note 
>>> that the only difference between the EX and SL Supple Vitesses is the 
>>> thickness of the tread, with the EX having thicker treads. Unlike RH and 
>>> other brands there is no difference in the casing between the lightweight 
>>> and longer wearing versions. I believe that the Shikiro is the same tread 
>>> as the Supple Vitesse EX with a heavier duty casing.  
>>>
>>> Jeremy Till
>>> Sacramento, CA
>>>
>>> On Monday, October 2, 2023 at 8:26:17 AM UTC-7 ted.l...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>
 I’ve had tires on the brain this last week. I was thinking I might want 
 to try something a little narrower on my Appaloosa so I’ve been a bit 
 absorbed with that thought.

 At the moment I run the SimWorks Super Yummy tire with the black 
 sidewall in 29x2.25”. I previously had their 26x2.25” tan wall tires on a 
 26” build and absolutely loved them on 

Re: [RBW] Re: What shoes does your Riv wear?

[Drew Saunders]

My Quickbeam is wearing Riv Jack Brown 700x33.3, which I over-inflate to 
80psi so I don't have to inflate as often. It's my commuter. I should 
probably really run them at about 70psi, and fill them more often, but I'm 
lazy.

My 1999 Riv Custom was from when 700x28 were considered "fat meat" 
super-sized monster wide tires, compared to the standard 23mm. I have RH 
700x28 Chinook Pass on it now, and I think they're more like 27mm. I also 
run those at 80psi, which is a more correct pressure for them and my 
weight. I used to run Riv Rolly-Poly 700x29, which really are 29mm wide. I 
think I could probably fit 31mm tires, so if the RH "Stampede Pass" 700x32 
are also on the narrow side, they should fit. When my current tires wear 
down some more, I'll order the RH "32mm" tires and hope they fit. I've been 
quite happy with RH tires and don't get any more flats than other brands. 
Can't say they're "super supple" but they ride well. If those don't fit, 
I'll search for a pair of 30mm tires.

I have the 26x2.3" RH Humptulips Ridge on my 1998 Ibis, which is their 
dual-purpose knobby for 26" wheels. They're also nowhere near 2.3" wide. I 
had a 2.3" Bontrager on the front and a 2.1" Panaracer (Smoke, I think) on 
the back before, and these are just a wee wider than the 2.1" Panaracer. I 
find the grip to be almost as good as the "real" off-road tires, but the 
road rolling resistance is much lower. My 90's MTB is truly a "Gravel Bike" 
now!

RH slicks don't see to be all that much different to me than any other 
slick, but their dual-purpose knobby does seem very different than any 
other knobby I've ridden.

Drew

On Tuesday, October 3, 2023 at 8:41:57 AM UTC-7 Jeremy Till wrote:

> I doubt that Grant was intentionally designing his bikes specifically to 
> handle better with knobbier tires. I think it's more a product of his own 
> views of how a bike should handle and the tires that were available/common 
> at the time he designed the bike. On the first point, he's written a few 
> times defending the virtues of geometric trail, perhaps as a response to 
> challenges from Jan-Heine-o-philes who wanted him to design a low trail 
> bike. On the second point, most of the tires we're discussing were nothing 
> but a twinkle in Jan Heine or Panaracer's eyes when the Rambouillet was 
> designed, and I think it probably handles best with 28-32mm road tires 
> because that was considered downright obese for a road bike at the time. 
> For the Clem, certainly that was designed closer to the contemporary golden 
> age of fat tires, but I still remember most of the prototypes wearing 
> something like a Schwalbe Big Ben, which has more of a blockier tread that 
> probably reduces pneumatic trail compared to something like an RH slick. 
>
> Jeremy Till 
> Sacramento, CA
>
> On Monday, October 2, 2023 at 6:46:34 PM UTC-7 ted.l...@gmail.com wrote:
>
>> Jeremy,
>>
>> You make a good point about the geometric and pneumatic trail and the 
>> possibility that Grant designed his frames around a knobbier, more general 
>> purpose, tire thus building the frames with more geometric trail. I’d love 
>> to ask Grant that question to know if it was happy coincidence that they 
>> ended up that way or if the design choice was really that intentional.
>>
>> On Mon, Oct 2, 2023 at 4:22 PM Jeremy Till  wrote:
>>
>>> On my Rivendells I've noticed that, irrespective of the surface I'm 
>>> riding on, I actually prefer the handling with larger knobby tires than 
>>> with larger slick tires. This is true on both my Clem H (2016, first-gen) 
>>> with 45-55mm tires and my Rambouillet (green, ~2006 as far as I can tell) 
>>> with 36-38mm tires. My explanation for this is that Grant tends to design 
>>> bikes with larger geometric trail. When you add in the pneumatic trail of 
>>> larger slick tires, the whole thing can feel harder to turn. Knobby tires 
>>> give you the same shock absorption while putting less rubber on the 
>>> pavement, thus reducing the pneumatic trail. Jan Heine has noted this 
>>> effect himself when comparing knobby and slick versions of his tires. 
>>>
>>> My Rambouillet current wears RH (actually Compass, they're a few years 
>>> old) Steilacoom 700x38 knobbies. My Clem H has 29x2.2 Specialized Fast 
>>> Traks with the "Control" casing, which is an XC-oriented MTB tire with 
>>> relatively minimal knobs that rolls well on pavement. In my experience 
>>> there is no free lunch when it comes to supple casings and flats. Certainly 
>>> the ride is better with things like the RH standard casing but my rate of 
>>> flatting from glass and thorns goes up. Sealant and tubeless haven't been 
>>> the solution, in my experience, and I run both of my Rivendells with 
>>> tubes.  
>>>
>>> Since Patrick was also mentioning them I will say that I've used both 
>>> the 700x42 and 700x38 versions of the Soma Supple Vitesse EX on my Long 
>>> Haul Trucker, which seems to handle better with large slicks than my 
>>> Rivendells. Those 

Re: [RBW] Re: What shoes does your Riv wear?

[Jeremy Till]

I doubt that Grant was intentionally designing his bikes specifically to 
handle better with knobbier tires. I think it's more a product of his own 
views of how a bike should handle and the tires that were available/common 
at the time he designed the bike. On the first point, he's written a few 
times defending the virtues of geometric trail, perhaps as a response to 
challenges from Jan-Heine-o-philes who wanted him to design a low trail 
bike. On the second point, most of the tires we're discussing were nothing 
but a twinkle in Jan Heine or Panaracer's eyes when the Rambouillet was 
designed, and I think it probably handles best with 28-32mm road tires 
because that was considered downright obese for a road bike at the time. 
For the Clem, certainly that was designed closer to the contemporary golden 
age of fat tires, but I still remember most of the prototypes wearing 
something like a Schwalbe Big Ben, which has more of a blockier tread that 
probably reduces pneumatic trail compared to something like an RH slick. 

Jeremy Till 
Sacramento, CA

On Monday, October 2, 2023 at 6:46:34 PM UTC-7 ted.l...@gmail.com wrote:

> Jeremy,
>
> You make a good point about the geometric and pneumatic trail and the 
> possibility that Grant designed his frames around a knobbier, more general 
> purpose, tire thus building the frames with more geometric trail. I’d love 
> to ask Grant that question to know if it was happy coincidence that they 
> ended up that way or if the design choice was really that intentional.
>
> On Mon, Oct 2, 2023 at 4:22 PM Jeremy Till  wrote:
>
>> On my Rivendells I've noticed that, irrespective of the surface I'm 
>> riding on, I actually prefer the handling with larger knobby tires than 
>> with larger slick tires. This is true on both my Clem H (2016, first-gen) 
>> with 45-55mm tires and my Rambouillet (green, ~2006 as far as I can tell) 
>> with 36-38mm tires. My explanation for this is that Grant tends to design 
>> bikes with larger geometric trail. When you add in the pneumatic trail of 
>> larger slick tires, the whole thing can feel harder to turn. Knobby tires 
>> give you the same shock absorption while putting less rubber on the 
>> pavement, thus reducing the pneumatic trail. Jan Heine has noted this 
>> effect himself when comparing knobby and slick versions of his tires. 
>>
>> My Rambouillet current wears RH (actually Compass, they're a few years 
>> old) Steilacoom 700x38 knobbies. My Clem H has 29x2.2 Specialized Fast 
>> Traks with the "Control" casing, which is an XC-oriented MTB tire with 
>> relatively minimal knobs that rolls well on pavement. In my experience 
>> there is no free lunch when it comes to supple casings and flats. Certainly 
>> the ride is better with things like the RH standard casing but my rate of 
>> flatting from glass and thorns goes up. Sealant and tubeless haven't been 
>> the solution, in my experience, and I run both of my Rivendells with 
>> tubes.  
>>
>> Since Patrick was also mentioning them I will say that I've used both the 
>> 700x42 and 700x38 versions of the Soma Supple Vitesse EX on my Long Haul 
>> Trucker, which seems to handle better with large slicks than my Rivendells. 
>> Those are good tires with an acceptable flat rate for me. I also tried the 
>> 700x38 SL version on my Rambouillet and found that not only did I not like 
>> the handling, but the flat rate was excessive for me. Note that the only 
>> difference between the EX and SL Supple Vitesses is the thickness of the 
>> tread, with the EX having thicker treads. Unlike RH and other brands there 
>> is no difference in the casing between the lightweight and longer wearing 
>> versions. I believe that the Shikiro is the same tread as the Supple 
>> Vitesse EX with a heavier duty casing.  
>>
>> Jeremy Till
>> Sacramento, CA
>>
>> On Monday, October 2, 2023 at 8:26:17 AM UTC-7 ted.l...@gmail.com wrote:
>>
>>> I’ve had tires on the brain this last week. I was thinking I might want 
>>> to try something a little narrower on my Appaloosa so I’ve been a bit 
>>> absorbed with that thought.
>>>
>>> At the moment I run the SimWorks Super Yummy tire with the black 
>>> sidewall in 29x2.25”. I previously had their 26x2.25” tan wall tires on a 
>>> 26” build and absolutely loved them on that bike. Unfortunately, in the 
>>> larger size, with the sort of riding I do (spirited, urban, all-road) I 
>>> find the tires sluggish and a bit unpredictable at times. Combined with the 
>>> 25mm wide rim I use, the tires measure to close to 60mm wide.
>>>
>>> I was thinking about trying to find a tire with a more rounded profile 
>>> and something that would be a bit narrower, somewhere in the 44-48mm range 
>>> to start.
>>>
>>> I’ve been looking primarily at the Rene Herse tires. I have a friend who 
>>> runs the Pumpkin Ridge (650x42) tire on his bike of a similar purpose and 
>>> absolutely loves them. I’ve used the Naches Pass (26x1.8) on another build 
>>> and also liked them a lot, 

Re: [RBW] Re: What shoes does your Riv wear?

[Tom Wyland]

OK, somebody made the point about my Rene Herse 700x48s probably measuring 
small. Yes, they are more like 44mm wide on my Velocity Dyads.  For me the 
fenders always limit the tire size.  I ran 42mm tires max under my 50mm SKS 
fenders.  I just installed 63mm VO venders on my Platy and realized I 
fitted them for 44mm tires (because I thought they were 48s!).  The state 
max spec is 48mm tires with fenders for the Platy. I see that others have 
fitted 50mm tires under the VO fluted fenders. I guess I'll push my luck 
with a larger size (Gravel Kings?) when I wear out this RH set.  Hopefully 
I didn't cut down my fender stays too short.

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Re: [RBW] Re: What shoes does your Riv wear?

[greenteadrinkers]

My Hillborne is currently wearing a pair of center-slick 700 x 47 durable 
casing Teravail Washburn tires set up tubeless on Cliffhanger rims. So far 
no complaints. 

Scott
Amherst, MA

On Tuesday, October 3, 2023 at 7:30:48 AM UTC-4 brok...@gmail.com wrote:

> Here’s what I’m running:
> Gus - 27.5 x 2.5” Teravail Ehline
> Toyo Atlantis - 26” x 1.8” RH Naches Pass
>
> I’ve been super impressed with the Teravail Ehlines. Sure, it’s a burly 
> dirt / gravel tire, but they roll surprisingly fast and quiet on pavement. 
> Quieter than a set of Teravail Sparwoods that I have on another bike (those 
> buzz like crazy). I’m at just under 1,000 mi on these Ehlines and it’s been 
> mostly paved riding. The tread still looks great! I’m kinda shocked, 
> actually.
>
> On Oct 3, 2023, at 7:19 AM, exliontamer  wrote:
>
> 
>
> My bikes:
> Toyo Atlantis - 700x42 Continental Contact Speed
> Cheviot - 700x38 Blue Lug Fairweather Cruise
>
> Katie's bikes:
> Platypus - 650x42 RH Babyshoe Pass
> Roadini - 700x35 RH Bon Jon Pass
>
> On Monday, October 2, 2023 at 11:09:12 PM UTC-5 velomann wrote:
>
>> My Hillborne is currently running Panaracer ProTite 650b x 42. I've used 
>> various Protite tires over the years in 26" and 700, and find that for 
>> mixed terrain (mostly pavement, some gravel, a little single-track, and 
>> lots of urban commuting) these tires are fantastic. The same tread pattern 
>> as Paselas with good grippy tread but not knobby. I'm also a big fan of the 
>> Gravelkings and Gravelking SKs, but I find the regular Gravelkings are 
>> fairly flat-prone for city commuting, and the SKs are a bit slower on 
>> pavement.
>>
>> I absolutely love the performance of Rene Herse Babyshoe Pass tires (650 
>> x 42) but find that after about 1K miles, I start getting constant flats, 
>> and can't justify $75 for a tire that only gets that kind of mileage unless 
>> I'm just using them for touring.
>>
>> Mike M
>>
>> On Monday, October 2, 2023 at 8:26:17 AM UTC-7 ted.l...@gmail.com wrote:
>>
>>> I’ve had tires on the brain this last week. I was thinking I might want 
>>> to try something a little narrower on my Appaloosa so I’ve been a bit 
>>> absorbed with that thought.
>>>
>>> At the moment I run the SimWorks Super Yummy tire with the black 
>>> sidewall in 29x2.25”. I previously had their 26x2.25” tan wall tires on a 
>>> 26” build and absolutely loved them on that bike. Unfortunately, in the 
>>> larger size, with the sort of riding I do (spirited, urban, all-road) I 
>>> find the tires sluggish and a bit unpredictable at times. Combined with the 
>>> 25mm wide rim I use, the tires measure to close to 60mm wide.
>>>
>>> I was thinking about trying to find a tire with a more rounded profile 
>>> and something that would be a bit narrower, somewhere in the 44-48mm range 
>>> to start.
>>>
>>> I’ve been looking primarily at the Rene Herse tires. I have a friend who 
>>> runs the Pumpkin Ridge (650x42) tire on his bike of a similar purpose and 
>>> absolutely loves them. I’ve used the Naches Pass (26x1.8) on another build 
>>> and also liked them a lot, but found that despite being the “endurance” 
>>> casing, they were very prone to small punctures and didn’t handle the 
>>> typical road debris around where I ride very well; this is one of the 
>>> reasons I’ve typically stuck with knobbier tires.
>>>
>>> The ones on my short list are currently the  Manatash Ridge (700x42) and 
>>> Oracle Ridge (700x48) tires from RH.
>>>
>>> I’m curious to know and see what others on the list use and have liked. 
>>> If you have pictures, I’d also love to see what they look like 
>>> (particularly 42mm on frames like the Appaloosa).
>>>
>>> — Ted
>>>
>> -- 
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Re: [RBW] Re: What shoes does your Riv wear?

[Brian Turner]

Here’s what I’m running:Gus - 27.5 x 2.5” Teravail EhlineToyo Atlantis - 26” x 1.8” RH Naches PassI’ve been super impressed with the Teravail Ehlines. Sure, it’s a burly dirt / gravel tire, but they roll surprisingly fast and quiet on pavement. Quieter than a set of Teravail Sparwoods that I have on another bike (those buzz like crazy). I’m at just under 1,000 mi on these Ehlines and it’s been mostly paved riding. The tread still looks great! I’m kinda shocked, actually.On Oct 3, 2023, at 7:19 AM, exliontamer  wrote:My bikes:Toyo Atlantis - 700x42 Continental Contact SpeedCheviot - 700x38 Blue Lug Fairweather CruiseKatie's bikes:Platypus - 650x42 RH Babyshoe PassRoadini - 700x35 RH Bon Jon PassOn Monday, October 2, 2023 at 11:09:12 PM UTC-5 velomann wrote:My Hillborne is currently running Panaracer ProTite 650b x 42. I've used various Protite tires over the years in 26" and 700, and find that for mixed terrain (mostly pavement, some gravel, a little single-track, and lots of urban commuting) these tires are fantastic. The same tread pattern as Paselas with good grippy tread but not knobby. I'm also a big fan of the Gravelkings and Gravelking SKs, but I find the regular Gravelkings are fairly flat-prone for city commuting, and the SKs are a bit slower on pavement.I absolutely love the performance of Rene Herse Babyshoe Pass tires (650 x 42) but find that after about 1K miles, I start getting constant flats, and can't justify $75 for a tire that only gets that kind of mileage unless I'm just using them for touring.Mike MOn Monday, October 2, 2023 at 8:26:17 AM UTC-7 ted.l...@gmail.com wrote:I’ve had tires on the brain this last week. I was thinking I might want to try something a little narrower on my Appaloosa so I’ve been a bit absorbed with that thought.At the moment I run the SimWorks Super Yummy tire with the black sidewall in 29x2.25”. I previously had their 26x2.25” tan wall tires on a 26” build and absolutely loved them on that bike. Unfortunately, in the larger size, with the sort of riding I do (spirited, urban, all-road) I find the tires sluggish and a bit unpredictable at times. Combined with the 25mm wide rim I use, the tires measure to close to 60mm wide.I was thinking about trying to find a tire with a more rounded profile and something that would be a bit narrower, somewhere in the 44-48mm range to start.I’ve been looking primarily at the Rene Herse tires. I have a friend who runs the Pumpkin Ridge (650x42) tire on his bike of a similar purpose and absolutely loves them. I’ve used the Naches Pass (26x1.8) on another build and also liked them a lot, but found that despite being the “endurance” casing, they were very prone to small punctures and didn’t handle the typical road debris around where I ride very well; this is one of the reasons I’ve typically stuck with knobbier tires.The ones on my short list are currently the  Manatash Ridge (700x42) and Oracle Ridge (700x48) tires from RH.I’m curious to know and see what others on the list use and have liked. If you have pictures, I’d also love to see what they look like (particularly 42mm on frames like the Appaloosa).— Ted




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[RBW] Re: What shoes does your Riv wear?

[exliontamer]

My bikes:
Toyo Atlantis - 700x42 Continental Contact Speed
Cheviot - 700x38 Blue Lug Fairweather Cruise

Katie's bikes:
Platypus - 650x42 RH Babyshoe Pass
Roadini - 700x35 RH Bon Jon Pass

On Monday, October 2, 2023 at 11:09:12 PM UTC-5 velomann wrote:

> My Hillborne is currently running Panaracer ProTite 650b x 42. I've used 
> various Protite tires over the years in 26" and 700, and find that for 
> mixed terrain (mostly pavement, some gravel, a little single-track, and 
> lots of urban commuting) these tires are fantastic. The same tread pattern 
> as Paselas with good grippy tread but not knobby. I'm also a big fan of the 
> Gravelkings and Gravelking SKs, but I find the regular Gravelkings are 
> fairly flat-prone for city commuting, and the SKs are a bit slower on 
> pavement.
>
> I absolutely love the performance of Rene Herse Babyshoe Pass tires (650 x 
> 42) but find that after about 1K miles, I start getting constant flats, and 
> can't justify $75 for a tire that only gets that kind of mileage unless I'm 
> just using them for touring.
>
> Mike M
>
> On Monday, October 2, 2023 at 8:26:17 AM UTC-7 ted.l...@gmail.com wrote:
>
>> I’ve had tires on the brain this last week. I was thinking I might want 
>> to try something a little narrower on my Appaloosa so I’ve been a bit 
>> absorbed with that thought.
>>
>> At the moment I run the SimWorks Super Yummy tire with the black sidewall 
>> in 29x2.25”. I previously had their 26x2.25” tan wall tires on a 26” build 
>> and absolutely loved them on that bike. Unfortunately, in the larger size, 
>> with the sort of riding I do (spirited, urban, all-road) I find the tires 
>> sluggish and a bit unpredictable at times. Combined with the 25mm wide rim 
>> I use, the tires measure to close to 60mm wide.
>>
>> I was thinking about trying to find a tire with a more rounded profile 
>> and something that would be a bit narrower, somewhere in the 44-48mm range 
>> to start.
>>
>> I’ve been looking primarily at the Rene Herse tires. I have a friend who 
>> runs the Pumpkin Ridge (650x42) tire on his bike of a similar purpose and 
>> absolutely loves them. I’ve used the Naches Pass (26x1.8) on another build 
>> and also liked them a lot, but found that despite being the “endurance” 
>> casing, they were very prone to small punctures and didn’t handle the 
>> typical road debris around where I ride very well; this is one of the 
>> reasons I’ve typically stuck with knobbier tires.
>>
>> The ones on my short list are currently the  Manatash Ridge (700x42) and 
>> Oracle Ridge (700x48) tires from RH.
>>
>> I’m curious to know and see what others on the list use and have liked. 
>> If you have pictures, I’d also love to see what they look like 
>> (particularly 42mm on frames like the Appaloosa).
>>
>> — Ted
>>
>

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[RBW] Re: What shoes does your Riv wear?

[velomann]

My Hillborne is currently running Panaracer ProTite 650b x 42. I've used 
various Protite tires over the years in 26" and 700, and find that for 
mixed terrain (mostly pavement, some gravel, a little single-track, and 
lots of urban commuting) these tires are fantastic. The same tread pattern 
as Paselas with good grippy tread but not knobby. I'm also a big fan of the 
Gravelkings and Gravelking SKs, but I find the regular Gravelkings are 
fairly flat-prone for city commuting, and the SKs are a bit slower on 
pavement.

I absolutely love the performance of Rene Herse Babyshoe Pass tires (650 x 
42) but find that after about 1K miles, I start getting constant flats, and 
can't justify $75 for a tire that only gets that kind of mileage unless I'm 
just using them for touring.

Mike M

On Monday, October 2, 2023 at 8:26:17 AM UTC-7 ted.l...@gmail.com wrote:

> I’ve had tires on the brain this last week. I was thinking I might want to 
> try something a little narrower on my Appaloosa so I’ve been a bit absorbed 
> with that thought.
>
> At the moment I run the SimWorks Super Yummy tire with the black sidewall 
> in 29x2.25”. I previously had their 26x2.25” tan wall tires on a 26” build 
> and absolutely loved them on that bike. Unfortunately, in the larger size, 
> with the sort of riding I do (spirited, urban, all-road) I find the tires 
> sluggish and a bit unpredictable at times. Combined with the 25mm wide rim 
> I use, the tires measure to close to 60mm wide.
>
> I was thinking about trying to find a tire with a more rounded profile and 
> something that would be a bit narrower, somewhere in the 44-48mm range to 
> start.
>
> I’ve been looking primarily at the Rene Herse tires. I have a friend who 
> runs the Pumpkin Ridge (650x42) tire on his bike of a similar purpose and 
> absolutely loves them. I’ve used the Naches Pass (26x1.8) on another build 
> and also liked them a lot, but found that despite being the “endurance” 
> casing, they were very prone to small punctures and didn’t handle the 
> typical road debris around where I ride very well; this is one of the 
> reasons I’ve typically stuck with knobbier tires.
>
> The ones on my short list are currently the  Manatash Ridge (700x42) and 
> Oracle Ridge (700x48) tires from RH.
>
> I’m curious to know and see what others on the list use and have liked. If 
> you have pictures, I’d also love to see what they look like (particularly 
> 42mm on frames like the Appaloosa).
>
> — Ted
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: What shoes does your Riv wear?

[Ted W]

Jeremy,

You make a good point about the geometric and pneumatic trail and the
possibility that Grant designed his frames around a knobbier, more general
purpose, tire thus building the frames with more geometric trail. I’d love
to ask Grant that question to know if it was happy coincidence that they
ended up that way or if the design choice was really that intentional.

On Mon, Oct 2, 2023 at 4:22 PM Jeremy Till  wrote:

> On my Rivendells I've noticed that, irrespective of the surface I'm riding
> on, I actually prefer the handling with larger knobby tires than with
> larger slick tires. This is true on both my Clem H (2016, first-gen) with
> 45-55mm tires and my Rambouillet (green, ~2006 as far as I can tell) with
> 36-38mm tires. My explanation for this is that Grant tends to design bikes
> with larger geometric trail. When you add in the pneumatic trail of larger
> slick tires, the whole thing can feel harder to turn. Knobby tires give you
> the same shock absorption while putting less rubber on the pavement, thus
> reducing the pneumatic trail. Jan Heine has noted this effect himself when
> comparing knobby and slick versions of his tires.
>
> My Rambouillet current wears RH (actually Compass, they're a few years
> old) Steilacoom 700x38 knobbies. My Clem H has 29x2.2 Specialized Fast
> Traks with the "Control" casing, which is an XC-oriented MTB tire with
> relatively minimal knobs that rolls well on pavement. In my experience
> there is no free lunch when it comes to supple casings and flats. Certainly
> the ride is better with things like the RH standard casing but my rate of
> flatting from glass and thorns goes up. Sealant and tubeless haven't been
> the solution, in my experience, and I run both of my Rivendells with
> tubes.
>
> Since Patrick was also mentioning them I will say that I've used both the
> 700x42 and 700x38 versions of the Soma Supple Vitesse EX on my Long Haul
> Trucker, which seems to handle better with large slicks than my Rivendells.
> Those are good tires with an acceptable flat rate for me. I also tried the
> 700x38 SL version on my Rambouillet and found that not only did I not like
> the handling, but the flat rate was excessive for me. Note that the only
> difference between the EX and SL Supple Vitesses is the thickness of the
> tread, with the EX having thicker treads. Unlike RH and other brands there
> is no difference in the casing between the lightweight and longer wearing
> versions. I believe that the Shikiro is the same tread as the Supple
> Vitesse EX with a heavier duty casing.
>
> Jeremy Till
> Sacramento, CA
>
> On Monday, October 2, 2023 at 8:26:17 AM UTC-7 ted.l...@gmail.com wrote:
>
>> I’ve had tires on the brain this last week. I was thinking I might want
>> to try something a little narrower on my Appaloosa so I’ve been a bit
>> absorbed with that thought.
>>
>> At the moment I run the SimWorks Super Yummy tire with the black sidewall
>> in 29x2.25”. I previously had their 26x2.25” tan wall tires on a 26” build
>> and absolutely loved them on that bike. Unfortunately, in the larger size,
>> with the sort of riding I do (spirited, urban, all-road) I find the tires
>> sluggish and a bit unpredictable at times. Combined with the 25mm wide rim
>> I use, the tires measure to close to 60mm wide.
>>
>> I was thinking about trying to find a tire with a more rounded profile
>> and something that would be a bit narrower, somewhere in the 44-48mm range
>> to start.
>>
>> I’ve been looking primarily at the Rene Herse tires. I have a friend who
>> runs the Pumpkin Ridge (650x42) tire on his bike of a similar purpose and
>> absolutely loves them. I’ve used the Naches Pass (26x1.8) on another build
>> and also liked them a lot, but found that despite being the “endurance”
>> casing, they were very prone to small punctures and didn’t handle the
>> typical road debris around where I ride very well; this is one of the
>> reasons I’ve typically stuck with knobbier tires.
>>
>> The ones on my short list are currently the  Manatash Ridge (700x42) and
>> Oracle Ridge (700x48) tires from RH.
>>
>> I’m curious to know and see what others on the list use and have liked.
>> If you have pictures, I’d also love to see what they look like
>> (particularly 42mm on frames like the Appaloosa).
>>
>> — Ted
>>
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Re: [RBW] Re: What shoes does your Riv wear?

[Ted W]

I’m not sure I’d say meager but I am curious to see what a skinnier tire on
an Appa made to house some chunky tires would look like with something a
bit smaller. Oddly, I searched around before posting the question here and
found examples at the extreme ends with some wearing 30-35mm tires and
others with the “typical” 50-55s but a surprising lack of examples fitted
with tires in the 44-48mm range which really just has me wondering why that
was.

Regarding the Gravel Kings I had the 32mm SS tires on my road bike for a
time and they did feel nice. My only complaint about them is the same as
with the smooth RH tires; they get little pinhole punctures. The SKs look
nice, and I’ve heard good things. Main issue in the past had been
availability. They were hard to find the last few years, maybe that’s
changed now that supply chains have normalized a bit and the COVID bike
boom has slowed.

On Mon, Oct 2, 2023 at 8:46 PM DavidP  wrote:

> My Platypus has Gravel King SK 700x50s under VO 63mm fenders. On
> Cliffhanger rims the tires measure a true 2". I've found the Gravel King
> SKs to be surprisingly good on pavement - comparable to RH endurance casing
> knobbies - and to have plenty of traction for dirt trails. It sounds like
> you are wanting a more road oriented tire/width, maybe the Gravel King SS
> in 700x43 would suit. If you're worried about a 42-48mm tire looking too
> meager, throw some fenders on - they'll hide the skinny tire, fill the
> space, and keep you and the bike dry and clean.
>
> My (non-Riv) rough stuff road bike has 650x48s; a smooth Paris Moto rear
> and a knobby RH Juniper Ridge up front. The front knobby has kept traction
> through slick mud patches that caused the rear to slide a bit. I quite like
> the combination (it at least feels a bit more optimized in my mind)
> compared to knobby front and back. This bike is setup tubeless in the back
> to help with punctures.
>
> -Dave
>
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Re: [RBW] Re: What shoes does your Riv wear?

[Richard Rose]

I cannot recommend enough the Simworks Homage. Mine are 27.5 x 55 and are equally at home on tarmac, gravel and mild dirt. Supple enough, durable & dare I say at least as quiet as Fleecer Ridge tires I tried. The 700 version is only available in the narrower 43mm which I bet is lovely. Sent from my iPhoneOn Oct 2, 2023, at 5:41 PM, Mark Schneider  wrote:Looking at the bikes I have at my home, including the Rivs I'm almost entirely on Rene Herse tires. This includes an Umtanum Ridge the first knobby tire from them, I've tried, I'm impressed with the low noise and rolling resistance for such an aggressive tread. I feel that once you use them for a while, it's hard to ride anything else. I don't get flats too often, not in Half Moon Bay or in the Pescadero area. When I tried them a few years ago, I did really like the Supple Vitesse  in 700x42 on my Atlantis for a while. I do have a couple of Thuderburts in the mix and I have no complaints, but once they wear out...I haven't tried the tires from Ultradynamico, or Sim Works yet, but I might dip my toe in at some point. On Monday, October 2, 2023 at 1:22:07 PM UTC-7 Jeremy Till wrote:On my Rivendells I've noticed that, irrespective of the surface I'm riding on, I actually prefer the handling with larger knobby tires than with larger slick tires. This is true on both my Clem H (2016, first-gen) with 45-55mm tires and my Rambouillet (green, ~2006 as far as I can tell) with 36-38mm tires. My explanation for this is that Grant tends to design bikes with larger geometric trail. When you add in the pneumatic trail of larger slick tires, the whole thing can feel harder to turn. Knobby tires give you the same shock absorption while putting less rubber on the pavement, thus reducing the pneumatic trail. Jan Heine has noted this effect himself when comparing knobby and slick versions of his tires. My Rambouillet current wears RH (actually Compass, they're a few years old) Steilacoom 700x38 knobbies. My Clem H has 29x2.2 Specialized Fast Traks with the "Control" casing, which is an XC-oriented MTB tire with relatively minimal knobs that rolls well on pavement. In my experience there is no free lunch when it comes to supple casings and flats. Certainly the ride is better with things like the RH standard casing but my rate of flatting from glass and thorns goes up. Sealant and tubeless haven't been the solution, in my experience, and I run both of my Rivendells with tubes.  Since Patrick was also mentioning them I will say that I've used both the 700x42 and 700x38 versions of the Soma Supple Vitesse EX on my Long Haul Trucker, which seems to handle better with large slicks than my Rivendells. Those are good tires with an acceptable flat rate for me. I also tried the 700x38 SL version on my Rambouillet and found that not only did I not like the handling, but the flat rate was excessive for me. Note that the only difference between the EX and SL Supple Vitesses is the thickness of the tread, with the EX having thicker treads. Unlike RH and other brands there is no difference in the casing between the lightweight and longer wearing versions. I believe that the Shikiro is the same tread as the Supple Vitesse EX with a heavier duty casing.  Jeremy TillSacramento, CAOn Monday, October 2, 2023 at 8:26:17 AM UTC-7 ted.l...@gmail.com wrote:I’ve had tires on the brain this last week. I was thinking I might want to try something a little narrower on my Appaloosa so I’ve been a bit absorbed with that thought.At the moment I run the SimWorks Super Yummy tire with the black sidewall in 29x2.25”. I previously had their 26x2.25” tan wall tires on a 26” build and absolutely loved them on that bike. Unfortunately, in the larger size, with the sort of riding I do (spirited, urban, all-road) I find the tires sluggish and a bit unpredictable at times. Combined with the 25mm wide rim I use, the tires measure to close to 60mm wide.I was thinking about trying to find a tire with a more rounded profile and something that would be a bit narrower, somewhere in the 44-48mm range to start.I’ve been looking primarily at the Rene Herse tires. I have a friend who runs the Pumpkin Ridge (650x42) tire on his bike of a similar purpose and absolutely loves them. I’ve used the Naches Pass (26x1.8) on another build and also liked them a lot, but found that despite being the “endurance” casing, they were very prone to small punctures and didn’t handle the typical road debris around where I ride very well; this is one of the reasons I’ve typically stuck with knobbier tires.The ones on my short list are currently the  Manatash Ridge (700x42) and Oracle Ridge (700x48) tires from RH.I’m curious to know and see what others on the list use and have liked. If you have pictures, I’d also love to see what they look like (particularly 42mm on frames like the Appaloosa).— Ted




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[RBW] Re: What shoes does your Riv wear?

[Mark Schneider]

Looking at the bikes I have at my home, including the Rivs I'm almost 
entirely on Rene Herse tires. This includes an Umtanum Ridge the first 
knobby tire from them, I've tried, I'm impressed with the low noise and 
rolling resistance for such an aggressive tread. I feel that once you use 
them for a while, it's hard to ride anything else. I don't get flats too 
often, not in Half Moon Bay or in the Pescadero area. When I tried them a 
few years ago, I did really like the Supple Vitesse  in 700x42 on my 
Atlantis for a while. I do have a couple of Thuderburts in the mix and I 
have no complaints, but once they wear out...
I haven't tried the tires from Ultradynamico, or Sim Works yet, but I might 
dip my toe in at some point. 

On Monday, October 2, 2023 at 1:22:07 PM UTC-7 Jeremy Till wrote:

> On my Rivendells I've noticed that, irrespective of the surface I'm riding 
> on, I actually prefer the handling with larger knobby tires than with 
> larger slick tires. This is true on both my Clem H (2016, first-gen) with 
> 45-55mm tires and my Rambouillet (green, ~2006 as far as I can tell) with 
> 36-38mm tires. My explanation for this is that Grant tends to design bikes 
> with larger geometric trail. When you add in the pneumatic trail of larger 
> slick tires, the whole thing can feel harder to turn. Knobby tires give you 
> the same shock absorption while putting less rubber on the pavement, thus 
> reducing the pneumatic trail. Jan Heine has noted this effect himself when 
> comparing knobby and slick versions of his tires. 
>
> My Rambouillet current wears RH (actually Compass, they're a few years 
> old) Steilacoom 700x38 knobbies. My Clem H has 29x2.2 Specialized Fast 
> Traks with the "Control" casing, which is an XC-oriented MTB tire with 
> relatively minimal knobs that rolls well on pavement. In my experience 
> there is no free lunch when it comes to supple casings and flats. Certainly 
> the ride is better with things like the RH standard casing but my rate of 
> flatting from glass and thorns goes up. Sealant and tubeless haven't been 
> the solution, in my experience, and I run both of my Rivendells with 
> tubes.  
>
> Since Patrick was also mentioning them I will say that I've used both the 
> 700x42 and 700x38 versions of the Soma Supple Vitesse EX on my Long Haul 
> Trucker, which seems to handle better with large slicks than my Rivendells. 
> Those are good tires with an acceptable flat rate for me. I also tried the 
> 700x38 SL version on my Rambouillet and found that not only did I not like 
> the handling, but the flat rate was excessive for me. Note that the only 
> difference between the EX and SL Supple Vitesses is the thickness of the 
> tread, with the EX having thicker treads. Unlike RH and other brands there 
> is no difference in the casing between the lightweight and longer wearing 
> versions. I believe that the Shikiro is the same tread as the Supple 
> Vitesse EX with a heavier duty casing.  
>
> Jeremy Till
> Sacramento, CA
>
> On Monday, October 2, 2023 at 8:26:17 AM UTC-7 ted.l...@gmail.com wrote:
>
>> I’ve had tires on the brain this last week. I was thinking I might want 
>> to try something a little narrower on my Appaloosa so I’ve been a bit 
>> absorbed with that thought.
>>
>> At the moment I run the SimWorks Super Yummy tire with the black sidewall 
>> in 29x2.25”. I previously had their 26x2.25” tan wall tires on a 26” build 
>> and absolutely loved them on that bike. Unfortunately, in the larger size, 
>> with the sort of riding I do (spirited, urban, all-road) I find the tires 
>> sluggish and a bit unpredictable at times. Combined with the 25mm wide rim 
>> I use, the tires measure to close to 60mm wide.
>>
>> I was thinking about trying to find a tire with a more rounded profile 
>> and something that would be a bit narrower, somewhere in the 44-48mm range 
>> to start.
>>
>> I’ve been looking primarily at the Rene Herse tires. I have a friend who 
>> runs the Pumpkin Ridge (650x42) tire on his bike of a similar purpose and 
>> absolutely loves them. I’ve used the Naches Pass (26x1.8) on another build 
>> and also liked them a lot, but found that despite being the “endurance” 
>> casing, they were very prone to small punctures and didn’t handle the 
>> typical road debris around where I ride very well; this is one of the 
>> reasons I’ve typically stuck with knobbier tires.
>>
>> The ones on my short list are currently the  Manatash Ridge (700x42) and 
>> Oracle Ridge (700x48) tires from RH.
>>
>> I’m curious to know and see what others on the list use and have liked. 
>> If you have pictures, I’d also love to see what they look like 
>> (particularly 42mm on frames like the Appaloosa).
>>
>> — Ted
>>
>

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[RBW] Re: What shoes does your Riv wear?

[Jeremy Till]

On my Rivendells I've noticed that, irrespective of the surface I'm riding 
on, I actually prefer the handling with larger knobby tires than with 
larger slick tires. This is true on both my Clem H (2016, first-gen) with 
45-55mm tires and my Rambouillet (green, ~2006 as far as I can tell) with 
36-38mm tires. My explanation for this is that Grant tends to design bikes 
with larger geometric trail. When you add in the pneumatic trail of larger 
slick tires, the whole thing can feel harder to turn. Knobby tires give you 
the same shock absorption while putting less rubber on the pavement, thus 
reducing the pneumatic trail. Jan Heine has noted this effect himself when 
comparing knobby and slick versions of his tires. 

My Rambouillet current wears RH (actually Compass, they're a few years old) 
Steilacoom 700x38 knobbies. My Clem H has 29x2.2 Specialized Fast Traks 
with the "Control" casing, which is an XC-oriented MTB tire with relatively 
minimal knobs that rolls well on pavement. In my experience there is no 
free lunch when it comes to supple casings and flats. Certainly the ride is 
better with things like the RH standard casing but my rate of flatting from 
glass and thorns goes up. Sealant and tubeless haven't been the solution, 
in my experience, and I run both of my Rivendells with tubes.  

Since Patrick was also mentioning them I will say that I've used both the 
700x42 and 700x38 versions of the Soma Supple Vitesse EX on my Long Haul 
Trucker, which seems to handle better with large slicks than my Rivendells. 
Those are good tires with an acceptable flat rate for me. I also tried the 
700x38 SL version on my Rambouillet and found that not only did I not like 
the handling, but the flat rate was excessive for me. Note that the only 
difference between the EX and SL Supple Vitesses is the thickness of the 
tread, with the EX having thicker treads. Unlike RH and other brands there 
is no difference in the casing between the lightweight and longer wearing 
versions. I believe that the Shikiro is the same tread as the Supple 
Vitesse EX with a heavier duty casing.  

Jeremy Till
Sacramento, CA

On Monday, October 2, 2023 at 8:26:17 AM UTC-7 ted.l...@gmail.com wrote:

> I’ve had tires on the brain this last week. I was thinking I might want to 
> try something a little narrower on my Appaloosa so I’ve been a bit absorbed 
> with that thought.
>
> At the moment I run the SimWorks Super Yummy tire with the black sidewall 
> in 29x2.25”. I previously had their 26x2.25” tan wall tires on a 26” build 
> and absolutely loved them on that bike. Unfortunately, in the larger size, 
> with the sort of riding I do (spirited, urban, all-road) I find the tires 
> sluggish and a bit unpredictable at times. Combined with the 25mm wide rim 
> I use, the tires measure to close to 60mm wide.
>
> I was thinking about trying to find a tire with a more rounded profile and 
> something that would be a bit narrower, somewhere in the 44-48mm range to 
> start.
>
> I’ve been looking primarily at the Rene Herse tires. I have a friend who 
> runs the Pumpkin Ridge (650x42) tire on his bike of a similar purpose and 
> absolutely loves them. I’ve used the Naches Pass (26x1.8) on another build 
> and also liked them a lot, but found that despite being the “endurance” 
> casing, they were very prone to small punctures and didn’t handle the 
> typical road debris around where I ride very well; this is one of the 
> reasons I’ve typically stuck with knobbier tires.
>
> The ones on my short list are currently the  Manatash Ridge (700x42) and 
> Oracle Ridge (700x48) tires from RH.
>
> I’m curious to know and see what others on the list use and have liked. If 
> you have pictures, I’d also love to see what they look like (particularly 
> 42mm on frames like the Appaloosa).
>
> — Ted
>

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