Re: [RBW] Re: When is a bike old?

[Patrick Moore]

I wish the big makers had focused on hub gears instead of cramming 12 onto
the rear hub and using batteries to shift. Man, what a good selection we
might have by now! And prices might be much lower if good hub gears were
sold over a much large rmarket.

Fat chance, I realize, since really the derailleur system is so much more
flexible.

On Wed, Mar 1, 2017 at 10:22 PM, Nick Payne  wrote:

>
>
> Well, my touring bike has had a Rohloff hub on it for about 15 years.
> The Rohloff is pretty much a black box - all the smarts and indexing are
> inside the hub, the twist shifter is merely a low tech device for
> pulling on one of two cables depending on which way you twist it.
>
> I mounted the shifter on drop bars like so:
> http://www.users.on.net/~njpayne/bikestuff/rohloff/index.htm. These
> days, there are multiple options for shifting the hub - see for example,
> http://cyclemonkeylab.blogspot.com.au/2016/02/tech-
> talk-shifter-options-for-use-with.html.
>
> Nic

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Re: [RBW] Re: When is a bike old?

[Nick Payne]

On 2/03/2017 10:35 AM, Patrick Moore wrote:
> Now this is a real benefit for some riders. Again, I think that
> electric shifting would probably benefit those who are less
> experienced or who simply are not interested in the (minor) art of
> shifting. 
>
> I really think that some sort of sealed transmission (sealed from the
> elements; sealed from fiddling; sealed from impact damage), with
> "black box" electronic shifting, would make a lot of sense for many
> riders. (I do realize that your wife's XT system is not entirely
> "black box.")
>
> Such "black box" transmissions would take a good part of the fun out
> of riding, for me, but I can see their uses.

Well, my touring bike has had a Rohloff hub on it for about 15 years.
The Rohloff is pretty much a black box - all the smarts and indexing are
inside the hub, the twist shifter is merely a low tech device for
pulling on one of two cables depending on which way you twist it.

I mounted the shifter on drop bars like so:
http://www.users.on.net/~njpayne/bikestuff/rohloff/index.htm. These
days, there are multiple options for shifting the hub - see for example,
http://cyclemonkeylab.blogspot.com.au/2016/02/tech-talk-shifter-options-for-use-with.html.

Nick

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Re: [RBW] Re: When is a bike old?

[Patrick Moore]

Now this is a real benefit for some riders. Again, I think that electric
shifting would probably benefit those who are less experienced or who
simply are not interested in the (minor) art of shifting.

I really think that some sort of sealed transmission (sealed from the
elements; sealed from fiddling; sealed from impact damage), with "black
box" electronic shifting, would make a lot of sense for many riders. (I do
realize that your wife's XT system is not entirely "black box.")

Such "black box" transmissions would take a good part of the fun out of
riding, for me, but I can see their uses.

Patrick Moore who uses the big ring (42) for 99% of his riding too, across
10 cogs, but deliberately.

On Wed, Mar 1, 2017 at 3:13 PM, Nick Payne  wrote:

> On Tuesday, 28 February 2017 10:49:03 UTC+11, Patrick Moore wrote:
>>
>> Continuing this aside: what exactly is the purpose of electric shifting?
>>
>
> Well, to give an example, in spite of being an experienced cyclist with
> ~12000km/year riding for the past 35 years, my wife still cross-chains a
> lot of the time. If the bike is in the big chainring, she tends to use the
> big ring until she needs a lower gear than is provided by big-big, and
> vice-versa with the small chainring. As she rides flat bar road bikes, I
> recently fitted Deore XT Di2 to one of her bikes. This has what Shimano
> call synchro shift, which means that as you shift down across the cassette,
> the gearing automatically shifts to the small chainring part way across the
> cassette without you having to touch the front shifter, and vice-versa when
> shifting up from the bottom of the cassette, so she never has to touch the
> front shifter to change between chainrings - the entire gear range is
> available from the right shifter. The crossover points are programmable via
> a smartphone or desktop app, as is the shifting speed (do you want it as
> fast as possible with a bit of noise or slower and almost silent).
>
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Re: [RBW] Re: When is a bike old?

[Nick Payne]

On Tuesday, 28 February 2017 10:49:03 UTC+11, Patrick Moore wrote:
>
> Continuing this aside: what exactly is the purpose of electric shifting?
>

Well, to give an example, in spite of being an experienced cyclist with 
~12000km/year riding for the past 35 years, my wife still cross-chains a 
lot of the time. If the bike is in the big chainring, she tends to use the 
big ring until she needs a lower gear than is provided by big-big, and 
vice-versa with the small chainring. As she rides flat bar road bikes, I 
recently fitted Deore XT Di2 to one of her bikes. This has what Shimano 
call synchro shift, which means that as you shift down across the cassette, 
the gearing automatically shifts to the small chainring part way across the 
cassette without you having to touch the front shifter, and vice-versa when 
shifting up from the bottom of the cassette, so she never has to touch the 
front shifter to change between chainrings - the entire gear range is 
available from the right shifter. The crossover points are programmable via 
a smartphone or desktop app, as is the shifting speed (do you want it as 
fast as possible with a bit of noise or slower and almost silent). 

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Re: [RBW] Re: When is a bike old?

[Brewster Fong]

On Monday, February 27, 2017 at 7:03:59 PM UTC-8, Mark in Beacon wrote:
>
> The reason for devising it has little to do with practicality and much to 
> do with the way our economy is set up, as well as the law of diminishing 
> returns and a number of other interesting factors. When TSHTF, and your 
> electronic shifting gizmo goes on the fritz, good luck finding someone who 
> A. knows how to fix it, and B. can source parts. But at that point, 
> e-shifts will likely not be one of your top 100 concerns, so don't fret!
>

I think that's already happened!  Shimano abandoned its 1st gen Dura Ace 
di2 and parts are no longer available. Shimano didn't sell many of these 
groups and just sacrificed those that had to be the first on the block to 
have it! I had a friend with this group and I think it was his RD that 
broke. It was either spending really big bucks for a NOS one from ebay 
(like over $500) or get a new Ultegra di2 group, which is much more robust 
with the 4 wires instead of 2.  He ended up junking the system and is now 
riding Sram Red mechanical.  

Note, the current generation of Ultegra di2 is bombproof and considered the 
standard. DA saves a little weight, but the cost difference makes just 
about everyone in my group choose Ultegra di2.  Campy EPS? Almost none 
existent. I've seen it only in shops and at least my LBS, which sells lots 
of the latest bikes, says they only sold a few. The new kid on the block is 
Sram Etap. It's wireless and expensive. But so far, appears to be holding 
up. There are some reports of battery tabs breaking, but it sounds like 
user error as one guy was cleaning his bike with some sort of degreaser 
that was weakening the tab!  So, if you really NEED etap (I like it!), make 
sure you DON"T clean your bike with a degreaser! 

>
> On Monday, February 27, 2017 at 7:33:40 PM UTC-5, Patrick Moore wrote:
>>
>> No, the *question *was whether e shifting *reduced* mis-shifts, and 
>> whether this *reduction* was the *reason* for devising it.
>>
>> I'm afraid Steve is right; you've not stated any good reason for electric 
>> shifting except cosmetic, and in my book, that's a pretty modest reason for 
>> an entirely new system.
>>
>> Now, I personally rather like the idea of getting rid of cams and cables 
>> and pinch bolts and using servomechs to shift. After all, once you take the 
>> indexing step, then the matter of skill is out the door, and you might as 
>> well choose the simpler and more reliable system.
>>
>> But that's back to my question: is electric shifting more reliable and 
>> more simple? Will the stuff last as long as STI?
>>
>> So, once again *(please read carefully!)*: What is, or what are, the 
>> reasons for switching to batteries and servo motors?
>>
>> On Mon, Feb 27, 2017 at 5:27 PM, Brewster Fong  wrote:
>>
>>>

>>> Agree. But the concern was whether e-shifting leads to "mis-shifts."  In 
>>> my group, I haven't notice it. 
>>>

 Unlike the old Mavic Zap stuff from the 90s, this stuff really works. 
 There's basically tiny computers controlling the shifting. Most people I 
 know have Shimano ultegra di2 and love it. But the one guy with Sram etap 
 loves it too and in fact, upgraded his second bike to it. The best thing 
 about etap is there's no wires. So if you like your bike to look like a 
 track bike with only brakes cables, then this is the system for you!  In 
 contrast, Shimano di2 does require wires, but many frames, especially 
 carbon ones, are being designed to hide the battery and control boxes. Add 
 in a Garmin to track everything and being able to upload your latest time 
 and you're set! 

 One interesting thing that I notice is you see with all these guys with 
 major cross chain where you're in the big cog in the back and big 
 chainring 
 at the same time. Further, with 11 speeds, you can get 50/34 chainrings 
 and 
 11-32 in the rear. So, you see guys riding in their 50t big ring and 32t 
 rear cog, with no noise or protest from the system!   With di2, there's no 
 rubbing either as the FD "automatically" shifts to avoid any noise. Now is 
 it good for the life of the chain? Who cares, everything is done 
 effortlessly!


 You've neglected to mention, with integrated brake/shift levers you're 
 limited in how much adjustment you can make of the front derailleur to 
 avoid rubbing (unlike friction shifters, where you can position the FD 
 anywhere you like).  So that gives back something that was lost when they 
 went to STI.

>>>
>>> Ah, but you're limiting yourself to one system!  Yes, Shimano STI 
>>> shifters are positional and have limited amount of trim. Sram double tap is 
>>> positional too. They both also require specific shifters if you want to use 
>>> a triple versus a double crank.  However, Campy ergo front shifting is a 
>>> rachet and has multiple positions so you can 

Re: [RBW] Re: When is a bike old?

[Addison Wilhite]

Yeah, I think all of my bikes are younger than me.  Although not sure about
the German city bike I have for coffee shop runs.


Addison Wilhite, M.A.

Academy of Arts, Careers and Technology 

*“Blazing the Trail to College and Career Success”*

Educator: Professional Portfolio 

Blogger: Reno Rambler 




On Wed, Mar 1, 2017 at 3:46 AM, Ron Mc  wrote:

> doesn't matter when the bike gets old, only matters when the motor gets old
>
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Re: [RBW] Re: When is a bike old?

[Ron Mc]

doesn't matter when the bike gets old, only matters when the motor gets old

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Re: [RBW] Re: When is a bike old?

[Steve Palincsar]

On 02/28/2017 07:47 PM, Patrick Moore wrote:
I get the "How old is that bike?" question occasionally, but much more 
often I get the "Wow, what a nice bike!" exclamation for both of my 
Rivs, and from a surprising variety of exclaimers -- experienced 
riders but also ordinary citizens. The Rivs are 18 and 14 years old 
respectively, but I don't consider them any older in a functional 
sense or even aesthetic sense than my 2016 Matthews.


If old means "worn out," then any bike that has been ridden until worn 
out is old. If old means outdated as to performance, then I'd say you 
have to go back at least to the mid '80s because of clipless pedals 
and aero levers and cassettes and slant parallelogram derailleurs; at 
least, that's when they became common.


But how hard is it to install clipless pedals and slant paralleogram 
derailleurs on a bike?  So 10 minutes work and that 55 year old bike is 
now "new"?




I believe that these inventions were real benefits to cycling. If 
"old" means simply "around many years," then any date is rather 
arbitrary, no? Or at best, simply relative to something that came 
earlier. New College, Oxford was founded in 1379, New College, Florida 
in 1960.


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Re: [RBW] Re: When is a bike old?

[Patrick Moore]

I get the "How old is that bike?" question occasionally, but much more
often I get the "Wow, what a nice bike!" exclamation for both of my Rivs,
and from a surprising variety of exclaimers -- experienced riders but also
ordinary citizens. The Rivs are 18 and 14 years old respectively, but I
don't consider them any older in a functional sense or even aesthetic sense
than my 2016 Matthews.

If old means "worn out," then any bike that has been ridden until worn out
is old. If old means outdated as to performance, then I'd say you have to
go back at least to the mid '80s because of clipless pedals and aero levers
and cassettes and slant parallelogram derailleurs; at least, that's when
they became common. I believe that these inventions were real benefits to
cycling. If "old" means simply "around many years," then any date is rather
arbitrary, no? Or at best, simply relative to something that came earlier.
New College, Oxford was founded in 1379, New College, Florida in 1960.

On Tue, Feb 28, 2017 at 4:31 PM, iamkeith  wrote:

> I dont receive the misinformed "must be old" comments as often as i do the
> misinformed "must be heavy and difficult to ride" comments.  So really
> thinking about this for the first time, it occurs to me that there is
> probably a hidden silver lining here.  If average joe crook thinks my AR is
> just some old relic, they might be more inclined to pass it up for the
> plastic bike chained next to it.
>
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**
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individualities revolve. *Chuang Tzu

*Stat crux dum volvitur orbis.* *(The cross stands motionless while the
world revolves.) *Carthusian motto

*It is *we *who change; *He* remains the same.* Eckhart

*Kinei hos eromenon.* (*It moves [all things] as the beloved.) *Aristotle

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[RBW] Re: When is a bike old?

[Ron Mc]

I came in 3rd on last weekend's group ride, which ends with a pretty long 
climb.  
One of the later arrivals stood and looked at my fendered International for 
several minutes.  Didn't say anything, I think he was disbelieving.  



It was big bag and all, because we had a cold morning and potential rain, 
so I had layers and weather shell packed - changed my knee socks for 
shorties at the halfway stop.  

The guy on the ride who teased me about the bag finished really late and 
red.  All cool, we were having fun - he asked if I packed lunch for 
everybody, and I told him I had a watermelon in there.  



On Tuesday, February 28, 2017 at 5:31:56 PM UTC-6, iamkeith wrote:
>
> I dont receive the misinformed "must be old" comments as often as i do the 
> misinformed "must be heavy and difficult to ride" comments.  So really 
> thinking about this for the first time, it occurs to me that there is 
> probably a hidden silver lining here.  If average joe crook thinks my AR is 
> just some old relic, they might be more inclined to pass it up for the 
> plastic bike chained next to it. 

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[RBW] Re: When is a bike old?

[iamkeith]

I dont receive the misinformed "must be old" comments as often as i do the 
misinformed "must be heavy and difficult to ride" comments.  So really thinking 
about this for the first time, it occurs to me that there is probably a hidden 
silver lining here.  If average joe crook thinks my AR is just some old relic, 
they might be more inclined to pass it up for the plastic bike chained next to 
it. 

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[RBW] Re: When is a bike old?

[Anton Tutter]

My 2013 Rawland with fat 650B wheels often gets mistaken as an "old 
fashioned" bike. One person once called it a "nice antique bike".

Anton
velolumino.com


On Tuesday, February 28, 2017 at 12:12:14 PM UTC-5, Christopher Cote wrote:
>
> Regarding the original topic, I recently had someone compliment my newest 
> bike, and Ocean Air Rambler as a "nice old bike". I was initially offended, 
> but then I realized that the cranks are from 1984, derailleurs from the 
> 90's, etc. So I suppose it is old, in part.
>
> My senior project in engineering school was to design and build an 
> electronic derailleur drivetrain. I was the EE on the project, working with 
> an ME student. Even then as a budding RetroGrouch (I don't think the term 
> had been coined yet), I knew it was an interesting engineering problem, but 
> not something I'd ever want. I could not believe that a cyclist would 
> tolerate having to change or charge batteries, so we designed an alternator 
> into the lower rear derailleur pulley that charged the battery. The biggest 
> advantage of the system that I could see at the time was that it would work 
> with any number of cogs, and any cog spacing
>
> Chris "creating solutions to problems that don't exist"
>
>
> On Monday, February 27, 2017 at 9:36:50 AM UTC-5, Addison wrote:
>>
>> I've had people assume my Riv is an "old" bike for a long time now but 
>> yesterday when I was riding home I stopped to take a photo of the rushing 
>> Truckee River in Reno and a gent paused to compliment me on my "beautiful 
>> old bike."  I just said thanks and didn't correct him.  And then it 
>> occurred to me that I shouldn't correct him because my Allrounder is going 
>> on 18 years of age.  Many miles but it looks sharp...I've taken care of it 
>> through commutes and offroading and tours.  Anyway, just ruminating...and 
>> posting a couple pics.  Happy Monday!
>>
>> http://reno-rambler.blogspot.com/2017/02/when-is-bike-old.html
>>
>> Addison Wilhite, M.A. 
>>
>> Academy of Arts, Careers and Technology 
>>  
>>
>> *“Blazing the Trail to College and Career Success”*
>>
>> Educator: Professional Portfolio 
>>
>> Blogger: Reno Rambler  
>>
>>
>>
>>

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Re: [RBW] Re: When is a bike old?

[Joe Bernard]

That's how the Shimano Coasting automatic 3-speed worked: The front dybohub 
provided the juice for the electronic shifting system in the rear hub. I could 
see Shimano adapting the dyno to electronic derailer systems if the touring 
market for it ever develops. 

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Re: [RBW] Re: When is a bike old?

[Scott Henry]

The people who aren't charging batteries are the same people who don't
check chain wear and/or don't replace cables till they break.

As for bikes, I'd say that anything over 10 years counts as old.


On Tue, Feb 28, 2017 at 1:32 PM, Ryan Fleming 
wrote:

> Not exotic, but my early 70's Peugeot PX-10 rides very well as wellin
> spite of it's working-class origins
>
> On Tuesday, February 28, 2017 at 12:29:52 PM UTC-6, Eric Norris wrote:
>>
>> One of my favorite bikes was built in the early 70s and is still going
>> strong. I just bought a bike built about 35 years ago, and it rides
>> extremely well.
>>
>> Properly maintained, a steel bike will last almost forever.
>>
>> --Eric Norris
>> campyo...@me.com
>> @CampyOnlyguy (Twitter/Instagram)
>>
>> On Feb 28, 2017, at 10:27 AM, Christopher Murray 
>> wrote:
>>
>> I'd say steel bikes are like people- 40-50 years is probably  about
>> middle aged.
>>
>> Cheers!
>> Chris
>>
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Re: [RBW] Re: When is a bike old?

[Ryan Fleming]

Not exotic, but my early 70's Peugeot PX-10 rides very well as wellin 
spite of it's working-class origins

On Tuesday, February 28, 2017 at 12:29:52 PM UTC-6, Eric Norris wrote:
>
> One of my favorite bikes was built in the early 70s and is still going 
> strong. I just bought a bike built about 35 years ago, and it rides 
> extremely well.
>
> Properly maintained, a steel bike will last almost forever.
>
> --Eric Norris
> campyo...@me.com 
> @CampyOnlyguy (Twitter/Instagram)
>
> On Feb 28, 2017, at 10:27 AM, Christopher Murray  > wrote:
>
> I'd say steel bikes are like people- 40-50 years is probably  about middle 
> aged.
>
> Cheers!
> Chris
>
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Re: [RBW] Re: When is a bike old?

[Eric Norris]

One of my favorite bikes was built in the early 70s and is still going strong. 
I just bought a bike built about 35 years ago, and it rides extremely well.

Properly maintained, a steel bike will last almost forever.

--Eric Norris
campyonly...@me.com
@CampyOnlyguy (Twitter/Instagram)

> On Feb 28, 2017, at 10:27 AM, Christopher Murray  
> wrote:
> 
> I'd say steel bikes are like people- 40-50 years is probably  about middle 
> aged.
> 
> Cheers!
> Chris
> 
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Re: [RBW] Re: When is a bike old?

[Christopher Murray]

I'd say steel bikes are like people- 40-50 years is probably  about middle aged.

Cheers!
Chris

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Re: [RBW] Re: When is a bike old?

[Brewster Fong]

On Monday, February 27, 2017 at 7:00:35 PM UTC-8, Ron Mc wrote:
>
> What seems to make the most sense would be a dyno hub or dyno BB that 
> keeps your battery charged.  
>

Good recommendation! It is probably cheaper and lighter than putting a 
motor and battery in your frame too! ;)

 

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[RBW] Re: When is a bike old?

[Ryan Fleming]

Yes indeed it (your AR)  does look beautiful and  has aged well. My A/R 
(1997) and road (2001) has received many compliments over the years   from 
  the non-ferrous crowd  as well as others. Rivendells  are just flat-out 
handsome bikes  and people who love bikes (big tent, don't forget) are very 
intrigued by them. I'm   intrigued by newer stuff as well, even though I 
can't see myself buying, say, a Cervelo anytime soon. Doesn't mean I'm not 
curious. I just love bikes 

On Monday, February 27, 2017 at 8:36:50 AM UTC-6, Addison wrote:
>
> I've had people assume my Riv is an "old" bike for a long time now but 
> yesterday when I was riding home I stopped to take a photo of the rushing 
> Truckee River in Reno and a gent paused to compliment me on my "beautiful 
> old bike."  I just said thanks and didn't correct him.  And then it 
> occurred to me that I shouldn't correct him because my Allrounder is going 
> on 18 years of age.  Many miles but it looks sharp...I've taken care of it 
> through commutes and offroading and tours.  Anyway, just ruminating...and 
> posting a couple pics.  Happy Monday!
>
> http://reno-rambler.blogspot.com/2017/02/when-is-bike-old.html
>
> Addison Wilhite, M.A. 
>
> Academy of Arts, Careers and Technology 
>  
>
> *“Blazing the Trail to College and Career Success”*
>
> Educator: Professional Portfolio 
>
> Blogger: Reno Rambler  
>
>
>
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: When is a bike old?

[Garth]

 Electronic shifting exists to exist, quite simple. Same with 
everything else, existing to exist. 


Just like everything in bicycling circles, I may not need something or even 
consider it today, but some day I may.  Fwiw, I ride with 2/3 rings and 
freewheels and friction shifters for no other reason that they work just 
fine and I find 7 cogs to be about "just right". It's all part of the 
"cycling experience". 

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[RBW] Re: When is a bike old?

[Christopher Cote]

Regarding the original topic, I recently had someone compliment my newest 
bike, and Ocean Air Rambler as a "nice old bike". I was initially offended, 
but then I realized that the cranks are from 1984, derailleurs from the 
90's, etc. So I suppose it is old, in part.

My senior project in engineering school was to design and build an 
electronic derailleur drivetrain. I was the EE on the project, working with 
an ME student. Even then as a budding RetroGrouch (I don't think the term 
had been coined yet), I knew it was an interesting engineering problem, but 
not something I'd ever want. I could not believe that a cyclist would 
tolerate having to change or charge batteries, so we designed an alternator 
into the lower rear derailleur pulley that charged the battery. The biggest 
advantage of the system that I could see at the time was that it would work 
with any number of cogs, and any cog spacing

Chris "creating solutions to problems that don't exist"


On Monday, February 27, 2017 at 9:36:50 AM UTC-5, Addison wrote:
>
> I've had people assume my Riv is an "old" bike for a long time now but 
> yesterday when I was riding home I stopped to take a photo of the rushing 
> Truckee River in Reno and a gent paused to compliment me on my "beautiful 
> old bike."  I just said thanks and didn't correct him.  And then it 
> occurred to me that I shouldn't correct him because my Allrounder is going 
> on 18 years of age.  Many miles but it looks sharp...I've taken care of it 
> through commutes and offroading and tours.  Anyway, just ruminating...and 
> posting a couple pics.  Happy Monday!
>
> http://reno-rambler.blogspot.com/2017/02/when-is-bike-old.html
>
> Addison Wilhite, M.A. 
>
> Academy of Arts, Careers and Technology 
>  
>
> *“Blazing the Trail to College and Career Success”*
>
> Educator: Professional Portfolio 
>
> Blogger: Reno Rambler  
>
>
>
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: When is a bike old?

[Addison Wilhite]

I've only played with it in a stand when I was taking a class at UBI.  I
have heard far better mechanics than myself who've ridden with it (but
personally have no particular use for it) that the best thing about it is
if you are racing cyclocross and even when your drivetrain gets mucked up
it still shifts smoothly.

Funny because the two most recent bikes into my stable I put downtube
shifters on.

.02 cents


Addison Wilhite, M.A.

Academy of Arts, Careers and Technology 

*“Blazing the Trail to College and Career Success”*

Educator: Professional Portfolio 

Blogger: Reno Rambler 




On Tue, Feb 28, 2017 at 7:24 AM, Ron Mc  wrote:

> and to me, half steps make riding more fun
>
>
> On Tuesday, February 28, 2017 at 9:15:22 AM UTC-6, Joe Bernard wrote:
>>
>> I honestly think you're not in a position to know why they decided to buy
>> bikes with e-shifting. It's possible at least one of them tried it and
>> thought it made riding more fun. Anything that makes a bike more fun makes
>> a bike more likely to be ridden.
>
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Re: [RBW] Re: When is a bike old?

[Ron Mc]

and to me, half steps make riding more fun

On Tuesday, February 28, 2017 at 9:15:22 AM UTC-6, Joe Bernard wrote:
>
> I honestly think you're not in a position to know why they decided to buy 
> bikes with e-shifting. It's possible at least one of them tried it and 
> thought it made riding more fun. Anything that makes a bike more fun makes 
> a bike more likely to be ridden. 

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Re: [RBW] Re: When is a bike old?

[Joe Bernard]

I honestly think you're not in a position to know why they decided to buy bikes 
with e-shifting. It's possible at least one of them tried it and thought it 
made riding more fun. Anything that makes a bike more fun makes a bike more 
likely to be ridden. 

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Re: [RBW] Re: When is a bike old?

[Tim Gavin]

Another reservation of e-shifting systems:  battery life.

These batteries will lose capacity over time, just like the battery of any
mobile device.  So, within 3-5 years, you'll have a battery with 30% life
left, and how long (and at what price) will these batteries be available?

Also, how do these batteries perform in below freezing weather?  My phone
shuts down at ~35 degrees.


Personally, I appreciate some modern tech in cycling.  I have a CF bike
with Hy/Rd disc brakes and SRAM double tap shifters, I have a fat bike with
hydraulic disc brakes, and I work on new stuff all the time at the bike
shop.

But for me, electronic shifting doesn't address any need or desire, and
seems to have obvious drawbacks -- especially the price.

But then, I don't ride "roadie" very much.  In fact, I owned a gorgeous
Roadeo for a year and rode it only three times.  It's just not my scene.
My group rides are tours, culinary rides, gravel, or singletrack.  No pace
lines, no drops, no racing.  Just riding.  :)

Well, I've done a couple cyclocross races.  Is e-shifting good when the
derailleur is full of mud and grass?

On Tue, Feb 28, 2017 at 7:57 AM, Patrick Moore  wrote:

>
>
> On Mon, Feb 27, 2017 at 7:55 PM, Brewster Fong  wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> Patrick, if you really want to know more, why are you asking the ibob
>> list where most people are probably still using friction shifters or at
>> least that's the reputation?!  Why not read a few cycling review and then
>> go test it yourself. I'm sure trhere's a Trek/Spec/C'dale has a shop near
>> you?!
>>
>
> Well, some listers certainly have opinions on the thing!
>
>>
>> Anyways, take a look at a few articles like this one:
>>
>> http://www.cyclingweekly.co.uk/news/product-news/six-reasons
>> -electronic-groupsets-better-mechanical-224550
>>
>> Hey even your buddies at retrogrouch addressed this issue:
>>
>> http://bikeretrogrouch.blogspot.com/2016/05/electronic-vs-
>> mechanical-shifting.html
>>
>> So whether its cosmetic or actual interest in faster shifting, e-shifting
>> is here to stay. The question is whether you are open enough to investigate
>> it for yourself without being influence by others.
>>
>> btw, I've tried it and like it. I don't have it, but can see myself
>> getting it on a future bike. Why not? Cycling is suppose to be fun! Good
>> Luck!
>>
>
> I'm not interested in it, except academically, like in the exotica you
> hear about in strange, ancient cultures; or, on the other end of the time
> continuum, as with twitter or satellite radio -- strange things that get
> other people excited. I'd happily try it if someone handed me a bike; I
> have tried it in the stand, and it was rather fun, though it seemed slow
> (this was the Dura Ace of several years ago). But it could come and go and
> leave my world utterly unaffected.
>
> No, the real question is, why was it developed? The theoretical answer
> seems to be that it works better for the pros; and I suppose it's the pros
> who could answer the question definitively.
>
> To be perfectly frank, I rather think it was developed to sell more stuff,
> and that its advantages for the pros are incidental; these advantages in
> racing may even be real, though, real or not, I daresay they excite the
> pros less than those who like to imitate the pros. I do think that, if
> properly developed, it's real value might be for city bikes: better
> durability and greater ease of use; a sort of black box transmission that
> could be fully enclosed, like an oil bath chaincase. Jan suggested that
> electric shifting might allow seamless and sequential half-stepping. But of
> course, you couldn't charge what you charge for "pro level" equipment,
> unless (and here's an idea!) you get the pros to ride city bikes. (Why not?)
>
> One disadvantage is that it would be rendered useless by a nuclear blast,
> thus rendering your bike useless for the post-apocalyptic world.
>
> Patrick Moore, who gets his fun shifting 10 (mismatched) cogs with Suntour
> Power Ratchet BES.
>
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Re: [RBW] Re: When is a bike old?

[Patrick Moore]

On Mon, Feb 27, 2017 at 7:55 PM, Brewster Fong  wrote:

>
>
> Patrick, if you really want to know more, why are you asking the ibob list
> where most people are probably still using friction shifters or at least
> that's the reputation?!  Why not read a few cycling review and then go test
> it yourself. I'm sure trhere's a Trek/Spec/C'dale has a shop near you?!
>

Well, some listers certainly have opinions on the thing!

>
> Anyways, take a look at a few articles like this one:
>
> http://www.cyclingweekly.co.uk/news/product-news/six-
> reasons-electronic-groupsets-better-mechanical-224550
>
> Hey even your buddies at retrogrouch addressed this issue:
>
> http://bikeretrogrouch.blogspot.com/2016/05/electronic-vs-mechanical-
> shifting.html
>
> So whether its cosmetic or actual interest in faster shifting, e-shifting
> is here to stay. The question is whether you are open enough to investigate
> it for yourself without being influence by others.
>
> btw, I've tried it and like it. I don't have it, but can see myself
> getting it on a future bike. Why not? Cycling is suppose to be fun! Good
> Luck!
>

I'm not interested in it, except academically, like in the exotica you hear
about in strange, ancient cultures; or, on the other end of the time
continuum, as with twitter or satellite radio -- strange things that get
other people excited. I'd happily try it if someone handed me a bike; I
have tried it in the stand, and it was rather fun, though it seemed slow
(this was the Dura Ace of several years ago). But it could come and go and
leave my world utterly unaffected.

No, the real question is, why was it developed? The theoretical answer
seems to be that it works better for the pros; and I suppose it's the pros
who could answer the question definitively.

To be perfectly frank, I rather think it was developed to sell more stuff,
and that its advantages for the pros are incidental; these advantages in
racing may even be real, though, real or not, I daresay they excite the
pros less than those who like to imitate the pros. I do think that, if
properly developed, it's real value might be for city bikes: better
durability and greater ease of use; a sort of black box transmission that
could be fully enclosed, like an oil bath chaincase. Jan suggested that
electric shifting might allow seamless and sequential half-stepping. But of
course, you couldn't charge what you charge for "pro level" equipment,
unless (and here's an idea!) you get the pros to ride city bikes. (Why not?)

One disadvantage is that it would be rendered useless by a nuclear blast,
thus rendering your bike useless for the post-apocalyptic world.

Patrick Moore, who gets his fun shifting 10 (mismatched) cogs with Suntour
Power Ratchet BES.

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Re: [RBW] Re: When is a bike old?

[Steve Palincsar]

Well, I ride with several people who have electronic shifting, and not 
one of them has any need for milliseconds, and none of them sprints.  I 
honestly don't think any of them bought these systems for any perceived 
benefits other than "having the latest and best."



On 02/28/2017 02:28 AM, Joe Bernard wrote:

I always assumed it was devised to make shifting faster, with less effort, in 
the peloton: Faster buys you milliseconds in the sprint, less effort saves your 
hands on stage races where you're doing crazy miles for a week or more. I'm not 
sure this translates to a need in recreational riding, but some folks are 
willing to pay for the benefits.



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Re: [RBW] Re: When is a bike old?

['Stephen Kemp' via RBW Owners Bunch]

I thought Brewster was being facetious.

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Re: [RBW] Re: When is a bike old?

[Joe Bernard]

I always assumed it was devised to make shifting faster, with less effort, in 
the peloton: Faster buys you milliseconds in the sprint, less effort saves your 
hands on stage races where you're doing crazy miles for a week or more. I'm not 
sure this translates to a need in recreational riding, but some folks are 
willing to pay for the benefits.  

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Re: [RBW] Re: When is a bike old?

[John Stowe]

The only truly distinctive feature I can point to for electronic shifting is 
that you can put the buttons where you need them, and you can have more than 
one per derailleur. Not crucial for the riding most of us do, perhaps, but on a 
time trial bike the ability to shift either on the aero bars or on the outer 
bullhorns, while maintaining control of the bike, could conceivably make a 
difference in a race.

But for the rest of us? Shrug.

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Re: [RBW] Re: When is a bike old?

['Mark in Beacon' via RBW Owners Bunch]

The reason for devising it has little to do with practicality and much to 
do with the way our economy is set up, as well as the law of diminishing 
returns and a number of other interesting factors. When TSHTF, and your 
electronic shifting gizmo goes on the fritz, good luck finding someone who 
A. knows how to fix it, and B. can source parts. But at that point, 
e-shifts will likely not be one of your top 100 concerns, so don't fret!

On Monday, February 27, 2017 at 7:33:40 PM UTC-5, Patrick Moore wrote:
>
> No, the *question *was whether e shifting *reduced* mis-shifts, and 
> whether this *reduction* was the *reason* for devising it.
>
> I'm afraid Steve is right; you've not stated any good reason for electric 
> shifting except cosmetic, and in my book, that's a pretty modest reason for 
> an entirely new system.
>
> Now, I personally rather like the idea of getting rid of cams and cables 
> and pinch bolts and using servomechs to shift. After all, once you take the 
> indexing step, then the matter of skill is out the door, and you might as 
> well choose the simpler and more reliable system.
>
> But that's back to my question: is electric shifting more reliable and 
> more simple? Will the stuff last as long as STI?
>
> So, once again *(please read carefully!)*: What is, or what are, the 
> reasons for switching to batteries and servo motors?
>
> On Mon, Feb 27, 2017 at 5:27 PM, Brewster Fong  > wrote:
>
>>
>>>
>> Agree. But the concern was whether e-shifting leads to "mis-shifts."  In 
>> my group, I haven't notice it. 
>>
>>>
>>> Unlike the old Mavic Zap stuff from the 90s, this stuff really works. 
>>> There's basically tiny computers controlling the shifting. Most people I 
>>> know have Shimano ultegra di2 and love it. But the one guy with Sram etap 
>>> loves it too and in fact, upgraded his second bike to it. The best thing 
>>> about etap is there's no wires. So if you like your bike to look like a 
>>> track bike with only brakes cables, then this is the system for you!  In 
>>> contrast, Shimano di2 does require wires, but many frames, especially 
>>> carbon ones, are being designed to hide the battery and control boxes. Add 
>>> in a Garmin to track everything and being able to upload your latest time 
>>> and you're set! 
>>>
>>> One interesting thing that I notice is you see with all these guys with 
>>> major cross chain where you're in the big cog in the back and big chainring 
>>> at the same time. Further, with 11 speeds, you can get 50/34 chainrings and 
>>> 11-32 in the rear. So, you see guys riding in their 50t big ring and 32t 
>>> rear cog, with no noise or protest from the system!   With di2, there's no 
>>> rubbing either as the FD "automatically" shifts to avoid any noise. Now is 
>>> it good for the life of the chain? Who cares, everything is done 
>>> effortlessly!
>>>
>>>
>>> You've neglected to mention, with integrated brake/shift levers you're 
>>> limited in how much adjustment you can make of the front derailleur to 
>>> avoid rubbing (unlike friction shifters, where you can position the FD 
>>> anywhere you like).  So that gives back something that was lost when they 
>>> went to STI.
>>>
>>
>> Ah, but you're limiting yourself to one system!  Yes, Shimano STI 
>> shifters are positional and have limited amount of trim. Sram double tap is 
>> positional too. They both also require specific shifters if you want to use 
>> a triple versus a double crank.  However, Campy ergo front shifting is a 
>> rachet and has multiple positions so you can shift either a triple of 
>> double. It's almost like friction shifting.
>>
>> The last is Sram etap. It is also positional as you have to shift both 
>> levers at once to go from big ring to small ring and visa versa.  But my 
>> buddy loves it and says he has never had a mis-shift.
>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> If you don't have guys in your group with e-shifting, shame on you! No, 
>>> seriously, go down to a LBS and check it out. Go to the big boys - 
>>> Trek/Specialized/C'dale/Giant. You'll see the latest! The big thing in my 
>>> group that got everyone drooling is etap with hydraulic disc brakes. Simply 
>>> amazingGood Luck!
>>>
>>>
>>> Other than trimming the front derailleur, you haven't give a genuine 
>>> reason to do so.  The fact that it works isn't enough: cable shifting works 
>>> too, and costs thousands less without requiring charging a battery.
>>> Being "new" is insufficient; you really need to show "better."  And that 
>>> you haven't done.
>>>
>>
>> I'm not trying to show "better."  What I like about etap is the look. No 
>> derailleur cables!  Very clean look and once they have e-braking, no cables 
>> at all! ;)  If I had the money, this Mark DiNucci would be on my list 
>> (click the picture for the slideshow):
>>
>>
>> http://theradavist.com/2016/02/2016-nahbs-dinucci-classic-road-with-sram-red-etap/#1
>>
>> As for pricing, yes etap is pricey as the basic shifters, FD, RD and 
>> charger is 

Re: [RBW] Re: When is a bike old?

[Ron Mc]

What seems to make the most sense would be a dyno hub or dyno BB that keeps 
your battery charged.  

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Re: [RBW] Re: When is a bike old?

[Brewster Fong]

On Monday, February 27, 2017 at 4:33:40 PM UTC-8, Patrick Moore wrote:
>
> No, the *question *was whether e shifting *reduced* mis-shifts, and 
> whether this *reduction* was the *reason* for devising it.
>

As someone who doesn't own a bike with e-shifting, I can only say what I 
see, *NONE* of my friends with e-shifting have every had a "mis-shift," but 
that's a small sampling and anecdotal. Also, I don't think this was the 
reason it was devised. I think it was devised to make faster shifting. I 
mean, a computer is faster than manual in processing pretty much anything. 
So why wouldn't shifting be the same? Does it make that much of a 
difference if you're 1 second or less faster shifting? For the majority, I 
would say no. Still, for the pros it might make that difference and we all 
know how we MUST emulate what the pros are riding!

Patrick, if you really want to know more, why are you asking the ibob list 
where most people are probably still using friction shifters or at least 
that's the reputation?!  Why not read a few cycling review and then go test 
it yourself. I'm sure trhere's a Trek/Spec/C'dale has a shop near you?!  

Anyways, take a look at a few articles like this one:

http://www.cyclingweekly.co.uk/news/product-news/six-reasons-electronic-groupsets-better-mechanical-224550

Hey even your buddies at retrogrouch addressed this issue:

http://bikeretrogrouch.blogspot.com/2016/05/electronic-vs-mechanical-shifting.html

So whether its cosmetic or actual interest in faster shifting, e-shifting 
is here to stay. The question is whether you are open enough to investigate 
it for yourself without being influence by others.

btw, I've tried it and like it. I don't have it, but can see myself getting 
it on a future bike. Why not? Cycling is suppose to be fun! Good Luck!



> I'm afraid Steve is right; you've not stated any good reason for electric 
> shifting except cosmetic, and in my book, that's a pretty modest reason for 
> an entirely new system.
>
> Now, I personally rather like the idea of getting rid of cams and cables 
> and pinch bolts and using servomechs to shift. After all, once you take the 
> indexing step, then the matter of skill is out the door, and you might as 
> well choose the simpler and more reliable system.
>
> But that's back to my question: is electric shifting more reliable and 
> more simple? Will the stuff last as long as STI?
>
> So, once again *(please read carefully!)*: What is, or what are, the 
> reasons for switching to batteries and servo motors?
>
> On Mon, Feb 27, 2017 at 5:27 PM, Brewster Fong  > wrote:
>
>>
>>>
>> Agree. But the concern was whether e-shifting leads to "mis-shifts."  In 
>> my group, I haven't notice it. 
>>
>>>
>>> Unlike the old Mavic Zap stuff from the 90s, this stuff really works. 
>>> There's basically tiny computers controlling the shifting. Most people I 
>>> know have Shimano ultegra di2 and love it. But the one guy with Sram etap 
>>> loves it too and in fact, upgraded his second bike to it. The best thing 
>>> about etap is there's no wires. So if you like your bike to look like a 
>>> track bike with only brakes cables, then this is the system for you!  In 
>>> contrast, Shimano di2 does require wires, but many frames, especially 
>>> carbon ones, are being designed to hide the battery and control boxes. Add 
>>> in a Garmin to track everything and being able to upload your latest time 
>>> and you're set! 
>>>
>>> One interesting thing that I notice is you see with all these guys with 
>>> major cross chain where you're in the big cog in the back and big chainring 
>>> at the same time. Further, with 11 speeds, you can get 50/34 chainrings and 
>>> 11-32 in the rear. So, you see guys riding in their 50t big ring and 32t 
>>> rear cog, with no noise or protest from the system!   With di2, there's no 
>>> rubbing either as the FD "automatically" shifts to avoid any noise. Now is 
>>> it good for the life of the chain? Who cares, everything is done 
>>> effortlessly!
>>>
>>>
>>> You've neglected to mention, with integrated brake/shift levers you're 
>>> limited in how much adjustment you can make of the front derailleur to 
>>> avoid rubbing (unlike friction shifters, where you can position the FD 
>>> anywhere you like).  So that gives back something that was lost when they 
>>> went to STI.
>>>
>>
>> Ah, but you're limiting yourself to one system!  Yes, Shimano STI 
>> shifters are positional and have limited amount of trim. Sram double tap is 
>> positional too. They both also require specific shifters if you want to use 
>> a triple versus a double crank.  However, Campy ergo front shifting is a 
>> rachet and has multiple positions so you can shift either a triple of 
>> double. It's almost like friction shifting.
>>
>> The last is Sram etap. It is also positional as you have to shift both 
>> levers at once to go from big ring to small ring and visa versa.  But my 
>> buddy loves it and says he has 

Re: [RBW] Re: When is a bike old?

[Ron Mc]

Brewster nailed it, Electronic shifting = N+1

On Monday, February 27, 2017 at 6:00:10 PM UTC-6, Brewster Fong wrote:
>
>
>
> On Monday, February 27, 2017 at 3:49:03 PM UTC-8, Patrick Moore wrote:
>>
>> Continuing this aside: what exactly is the purpose of electric shifting? 
>> I assume there is some benefit to someone besides the seller, since someone 
>> or other has been trying to make it work since the mid or late '90s. Does 
>> it make mis-shifts, which I assume (right? wrong?) are more common with 
>> cables the smaller the gaps between cogs, less likely?
>>
>
> What's the purpose  of e-shifting?! Are you crazy?!  Of course, its to 
> sell more bikes!  Come on, get with it!
>
> But seriously, the latest e-shifting is fast and reliable. Unlike the old 
> Mavic Zap stuff from the 90s, this stuff really works. There's basically 
> tiny computers controlling the shifting. Most people I know have Shimano 
> ultegra di2 and love it. But the one guy with Sram etap loves it too and in 
> fact, upgraded his second bike to it. The best thing about etap is there's 
> no wires. So if you like your bike to look like a track bike with only 
> brakes cables, then this is the system for you!  In contrast, Shimano di2 
> does require wires, but many frames, especially carbon ones, are being 
> designed to hide the battery and control boxes. Add in a Garmin to track 
> everything and being able to upload your latest time and you're set! 
>
> One interesting thing that I notice is you see with all these guys with 
> major cross chain where you're in the big cog in the back and big chainring 
> at the same time. Further, with 11 speeds, you can get 50/34 chainrings and 
> 11-32 in the rear. So, you see guys riding in their 50t big ring and 32t 
> rear cog, with no noise or protest from the system!   With di2, there's no 
> rubbing either as the FD "automatically" shifts to avoid any noise. Now is 
> it good for the life of the chain? Who cares, everything is done 
> effortlessly!
>
> If you don't have guys in your group with e-shifting, shame on you! No, 
> seriously, go down to a LBS and check it out. Go to the big boys - 
> Trek/Specialized/C'dale/Giant. You'll see the latest! The big thing in my 
> group that got everyone drooling is etap with hydraulic disc brakes. Simply 
> amazingGood Luck! 
>
>  
>
>>
>>

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Re: [RBW] Re: When is a bike old?

[Patrick Moore]

As to batteries going cold: hell, use a bigger battery!

On Mon, Feb 27, 2017 at 5:33 PM, Patrick Moore  wrote:

> No, the *question *was whether e shifting *reduced* mis-shifts, and
> whether this *reduction* was the *reason* for devising it.
>
> I'm afraid Steve is right; you've not stated any good reason for electric
> shifting except cosmetic, and in my book, that's a pretty modest reason for
> an entirely new system.
>
> Now, I personally rather like the idea of getting rid of cams and cables
> and pinch bolts and using servomechs to shift. After all, once you take the
> indexing step, then the matter of skill is out the door, and you might as
> well choose the simpler and more reliable system.
>
> But that's back to my question: is electric shifting more reliable and
> more simple? Will the stuff last as long as STI?
>
> So, once again *(please read carefully!)*: What is, or what are, the
> reasons for switching to batteries and servo motors?
>
> On Mon, Feb 27, 2017 at 5:27 PM, Brewster Fong  wrote:
>
>>
>>>
>> Agree. But the concern was whether e-shifting leads to "mis-shifts."  In
>> my group, I haven't notice it.
>>
>>>
>>> Unlike the old Mavic Zap stuff from the 90s, this stuff really works.
>>> There's basically tiny computers controlling the shifting. Most people I
>>> know have Shimano ultegra di2 and love it. But the one guy with Sram etap
>>> loves it too and in fact, upgraded his second bike to it. The best thing
>>> about etap is there's no wires. So if you like your bike to look like a
>>> track bike with only brakes cables, then this is the system for you!  In
>>> contrast, Shimano di2 does require wires, but many frames, especially
>>> carbon ones, are being designed to hide the battery and control boxes. Add
>>> in a Garmin to track everything and being able to upload your latest time
>>> and you're set!
>>>
>>> One interesting thing that I notice is you see with all these guys with
>>> major cross chain where you're in the big cog in the back and big chainring
>>> at the same time. Further, with 11 speeds, you can get 50/34 chainrings and
>>> 11-32 in the rear. So, you see guys riding in their 50t big ring and 32t
>>> rear cog, with no noise or protest from the system!   With di2, there's no
>>> rubbing either as the FD "automatically" shifts to avoid any noise. Now is
>>> it good for the life of the chain? Who cares, everything is done
>>> effortlessly!
>>>
>>>
>>> You've neglected to mention, with integrated brake/shift levers you're
>>> limited in how much adjustment you can make of the front derailleur to
>>> avoid rubbing (unlike friction shifters, where you can position the FD
>>> anywhere you like).  So that gives back something that was lost when they
>>> went to STI.
>>>
>>
>> Ah, but you're limiting yourself to one system!  Yes, Shimano STI
>> shifters are positional and have limited amount of trim. Sram double tap is
>> positional too. They both also require specific shifters if you want to use
>> a triple versus a double crank.  However, Campy ergo front shifting is a
>> rachet and has multiple positions so you can shift either a triple of
>> double. It's almost like friction shifting.
>>
>> The last is Sram etap. It is also positional as you have to shift both
>> levers at once to go from big ring to small ring and visa versa.  But my
>> buddy loves it and says he has never had a mis-shift.
>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> If you don't have guys in your group with e-shifting, shame on you! No,
>>> seriously, go down to a LBS and check it out. Go to the big boys -
>>> Trek/Specialized/C'dale/Giant. You'll see the latest! The big thing in my
>>> group that got everyone drooling is etap with hydraulic disc brakes. Simply
>>> amazingGood Luck!
>>>
>>>
>>> Other than trimming the front derailleur, you haven't give a genuine
>>> reason to do so.  The fact that it works isn't enough: cable shifting works
>>> too, and costs thousands less without requiring charging a battery.
>>> Being "new" is insufficient; you really need to show "better."  And that
>>> you haven't done.
>>>
>>
>> I'm not trying to show "better."  What I like about etap is the look. No
>> derailleur cables!  Very clean look and once they have e-braking, no cables
>> at all! ;)  If I had the money, this Mark DiNucci would be on my list
>> (click the picture for the slideshow):
>>
>> http://theradavist.com/2016/02/2016-nahbs-dinucci-classic-ro
>> ad-with-sram-red-etap/#1
>>
>> As for pricing, yes etap is pricey as the basic shifters, FD, RD and
>> charger is about $1200-1600 and complete group is about $2000-2500. But
>> that's similar to mechanical Campy SR/DA 9100/Sram Red. The most popular
>> Shimano Ultegra 11 di2 can be found for under $1000 from the UK.  Yes, you
>> can get other gruppos for less - Ultegra 11 mechanical can be found for
>> about $500-600 and 105 11 speed which is probably 85% of DA can be found
>> around $400-500.
>>
>> So if you're happy with your shifting 

Re: [RBW] Re: When is a bike old?

[Patrick Moore]

No, the *question *was whether e shifting *reduced* mis-shifts, and whether
this *reduction* was the *reason* for devising it.

I'm afraid Steve is right; you've not stated any good reason for electric
shifting except cosmetic, and in my book, that's a pretty modest reason for
an entirely new system.

Now, I personally rather like the idea of getting rid of cams and cables
and pinch bolts and using servomechs to shift. After all, once you take the
indexing step, then the matter of skill is out the door, and you might as
well choose the simpler and more reliable system.

But that's back to my question: is electric shifting more reliable and more
simple? Will the stuff last as long as STI?

So, once again *(please read carefully!)*: What is, or what are, the
reasons for switching to batteries and servo motors?

On Mon, Feb 27, 2017 at 5:27 PM, Brewster Fong  wrote:

>
>>
> Agree. But the concern was whether e-shifting leads to "mis-shifts."  In
> my group, I haven't notice it.
>
>>
>> Unlike the old Mavic Zap stuff from the 90s, this stuff really works.
>> There's basically tiny computers controlling the shifting. Most people I
>> know have Shimano ultegra di2 and love it. But the one guy with Sram etap
>> loves it too and in fact, upgraded his second bike to it. The best thing
>> about etap is there's no wires. So if you like your bike to look like a
>> track bike with only brakes cables, then this is the system for you!  In
>> contrast, Shimano di2 does require wires, but many frames, especially
>> carbon ones, are being designed to hide the battery and control boxes. Add
>> in a Garmin to track everything and being able to upload your latest time
>> and you're set!
>>
>> One interesting thing that I notice is you see with all these guys with
>> major cross chain where you're in the big cog in the back and big chainring
>> at the same time. Further, with 11 speeds, you can get 50/34 chainrings and
>> 11-32 in the rear. So, you see guys riding in their 50t big ring and 32t
>> rear cog, with no noise or protest from the system!   With di2, there's no
>> rubbing either as the FD "automatically" shifts to avoid any noise. Now is
>> it good for the life of the chain? Who cares, everything is done
>> effortlessly!
>>
>>
>> You've neglected to mention, with integrated brake/shift levers you're
>> limited in how much adjustment you can make of the front derailleur to
>> avoid rubbing (unlike friction shifters, where you can position the FD
>> anywhere you like).  So that gives back something that was lost when they
>> went to STI.
>>
>
> Ah, but you're limiting yourself to one system!  Yes, Shimano STI shifters
> are positional and have limited amount of trim. Sram double tap is
> positional too. They both also require specific shifters if you want to use
> a triple versus a double crank.  However, Campy ergo front shifting is a
> rachet and has multiple positions so you can shift either a triple of
> double. It's almost like friction shifting.
>
> The last is Sram etap. It is also positional as you have to shift both
> levers at once to go from big ring to small ring and visa versa.  But my
> buddy loves it and says he has never had a mis-shift.
>
>>
>>
>>
>> If you don't have guys in your group with e-shifting, shame on you! No,
>> seriously, go down to a LBS and check it out. Go to the big boys -
>> Trek/Specialized/C'dale/Giant. You'll see the latest! The big thing in my
>> group that got everyone drooling is etap with hydraulic disc brakes. Simply
>> amazingGood Luck!
>>
>>
>> Other than trimming the front derailleur, you haven't give a genuine
>> reason to do so.  The fact that it works isn't enough: cable shifting works
>> too, and costs thousands less without requiring charging a battery.
>> Being "new" is insufficient; you really need to show "better."  And that
>> you haven't done.
>>
>
> I'm not trying to show "better."  What I like about etap is the look. No
> derailleur cables!  Very clean look and once they have e-braking, no cables
> at all! ;)  If I had the money, this Mark DiNucci would be on my list
> (click the picture for the slideshow):
>
> http://theradavist.com/2016/02/2016-nahbs-dinucci-classic-
> road-with-sram-red-etap/#1
>
> As for pricing, yes etap is pricey as the basic shifters, FD, RD and
> charger is about $1200-1600 and complete group is about $2000-2500. But
> that's similar to mechanical Campy SR/DA 9100/Sram Red. The most popular
> Shimano Ultegra 11 di2 can be found for under $1000 from the UK.  Yes, you
> can get other gruppos for less - Ultegra 11 mechanical can be found for
> about $500-600 and 105 11 speed which is probably 85% of DA can be found
> around $400-500.
>
> So if you're happy with your shifting and don't want to try anything new,
> keep going! Hey, I'm still have 9 speed and both my bikes (Calfee carbon
> and LItespeed ti) are over 20 years old!  Although I will admit that if I
> get something new, I'm probably going to give etap a try. :0 

Re: [RBW] Re: When is a bike old?

[Brewster Fong]

On Monday, February 27, 2017 at 4:07:18 PM UTC-8, Steve Palincsar wrote:
>
>
> On 02/27/2017 07:00 PM, Brewster Fong wrote:
>
>
>
> On Monday, February 27, 2017 at 3:49:03 PM UTC-8, Patrick Moore wrote: 
>>
>> Continuing this aside: what exactly is the purpose of electric shifting? 
>> I assume there is some benefit to someone besides the seller, since someone 
>> or other has been trying to make it work since the mid or late '90s. Does 
>> it make mis-shifts, which I assume (right? wrong?) are more common with 
>> cables the smaller the gaps between cogs, less likely?
>>
>
> What's the purpose  of e-shifting?! Are you crazy?!  Of course, its to 
> sell more bikes!  Come on, get with it!
>
> But seriously, the latest e-shifting is fast and reliable. 
>
>
> So too is cable shifting.
>

Agree. But the concern was whether e-shifting leads to "mis-shifts."  In my 
group, I haven't notice it. 

>
> Unlike the old Mavic Zap stuff from the 90s, this stuff really works. 
> There's basically tiny computers controlling the shifting. Most people I 
> know have Shimano ultegra di2 and love it. But the one guy with Sram etap 
> loves it too and in fact, upgraded his second bike to it. The best thing 
> about etap is there's no wires. So if you like your bike to look like a 
> track bike with only brakes cables, then this is the system for you!  In 
> contrast, Shimano di2 does require wires, but many frames, especially 
> carbon ones, are being designed to hide the battery and control boxes. Add 
> in a Garmin to track everything and being able to upload your latest time 
> and you're set! 
>
> One interesting thing that I notice is you see with all these guys with 
> major cross chain where you're in the big cog in the back and big chainring 
> at the same time. Further, with 11 speeds, you can get 50/34 chainrings and 
> 11-32 in the rear. So, you see guys riding in their 50t big ring and 32t 
> rear cog, with no noise or protest from the system!   With di2, there's no 
> rubbing either as the FD "automatically" shifts to avoid any noise. Now is 
> it good for the life of the chain? Who cares, everything is done 
> effortlessly!
>
>
> You've neglected to mention, with integrated brake/shift levers you're 
> limited in how much adjustment you can make of the front derailleur to 
> avoid rubbing (unlike friction shifters, where you can position the FD 
> anywhere you like).  So that gives back something that was lost when they 
> went to STI.
>

Ah, but you're limiting yourself to one system!  Yes, Shimano STI shifters 
are positional and have limited amount of trim. Sram double tap is 
positional too. They both also require specific shifters if you want to use 
a triple versus a double crank.  However, Campy ergo front shifting is a 
rachet and has multiple positions so you can shift either a triple of 
double. It's almost like friction shifting.

The last is Sram etap. It is also positional as you have to shift both 
levers at once to go from big ring to small ring and visa versa.  But my 
buddy loves it and says he has never had a mis-shift.

>
>
>
> If you don't have guys in your group with e-shifting, shame on you! No, 
> seriously, go down to a LBS and check it out. Go to the big boys - 
> Trek/Specialized/C'dale/Giant. You'll see the latest! The big thing in my 
> group that got everyone drooling is etap with hydraulic disc brakes. Simply 
> amazingGood Luck!
>
>
> Other than trimming the front derailleur, you haven't give a genuine 
> reason to do so.  The fact that it works isn't enough: cable shifting works 
> too, and costs thousands less without requiring charging a battery.
> Being "new" is insufficient; you really need to show "better."  And that 
> you haven't done.
>

I'm not trying to show "better."  What I like about etap is the look. No 
derailleur cables!  Very clean look and once they have e-braking, no cables 
at all! ;)  If I had the money, this Mark DiNucci would be on my list 
(click the picture for the slideshow):

http://theradavist.com/2016/02/2016-nahbs-dinucci-classic-road-with-sram-red-etap/#1

As for pricing, yes etap is pricey as the basic shifters, FD, RD and 
charger is about $1200-1600 and complete group is about $2000-2500. But 
that's similar to mechanical Campy SR/DA 9100/Sram Red. The most popular 
Shimano Ultegra 11 di2 can be found for under $1000 from the UK.  Yes, you 
can get other gruppos for less - Ultegra 11 mechanical can be found for 
about $500-600 and 105 11 speed which is probably 85% of DA can be found 
around $400-500.

So if you're happy with your shifting and don't want to try anything new, 
keep going! Hey, I'm still have 9 speed and both my bikes (Calfee carbon 
and LItespeed ti) are over 20 years old!  Although I will admit that if I 
get something new, I'm probably going to give etap a try. :0  Good Luck!   

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Re: [RBW] Re: When is a bike old?

[Steve Palincsar]

On 02/27/2017 07:00 PM, Brewster Fong wrote:



On Monday, February 27, 2017 at 3:49:03 PM UTC-8, Patrick Moore wrote:

Continuing this aside: what exactly is the purpose of electric
shifting? I assume there is some benefit to someone besides the
seller, since someone or other has been trying to make it work
since the mid or late '90s. Does it make mis-shifts, which I
assume (right? wrong?) are more common with cables the smaller the
gaps between cogs, less likely?


What's the purpose  of e-shifting?! Are you crazy?!  Of course, its to 
sell more bikes!  Come on, get with it!


But seriously, the latest e-shifting is fast and reliable.


So too is cable shifting.

Unlike the old Mavic Zap stuff from the 90s, this stuff really works. 
There's basically tiny computers controlling the shifting. Most people 
I know have Shimano ultegra di2 and love it. But the one guy with Sram 
etap loves it too and in fact, upgraded his second bike to it. The 
best thing about etap is there's no wires. So if you like your bike to 
look like a track bike with only brakes cables, then this is the 
system for you!  In contrast, Shimano di2 does require wires, but many 
frames, especially carbon ones, are being designed to hide the battery 
and control boxes. Add in a Garmin to track everything and being able 
to upload your latest time and you're set!


One interesting thing that I notice is you see with all these guys 
with major cross chain where you're in the big cog in the back and big 
chainring at the same time. Further, with 11 speeds, you can get 50/34 
chainrings and 11-32 in the rear. So, you see guys riding in their 50t 
big ring and 32t rear cog, with no noise or protest from the system!   
With di2, there's no rubbing either as the FD "automatically" shifts 
to avoid any noise. Now is it good for the life of the chain? Who 
cares, everything is done effortlessly!


You've neglected to mention, with integrated brake/shift levers you're 
limited in how much adjustment you can make of the front derailleur to 
avoid rubbing (unlike friction shifters, where you can position the FD 
anywhere you like).  So that gives back something that was lost when 
they went to STI.





If you don't have guys in your group with e-shifting, shame on you! 
No, seriously, go down to a LBS and check it out. Go to the big boys - 
Trek/Specialized/C'dale/Giant. You'll see the latest! The big thing in 
my group that got everyone drooling is etap with hydraulic disc 
brakes. Simply amazingGood Luck!


Other than trimming the front derailleur, you haven't give a genuine 
reason to do so.  The fact that it works isn't enough: cable shifting 
works too, and costs thousands less without requiring charging a battery.
Being "new" is insufficient; you really need to show "better."  And that 
you haven't done.



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Re: [RBW] Re: When is a bike old?

[Brewster Fong]

On Monday, February 27, 2017 at 3:49:03 PM UTC-8, Patrick Moore wrote:
>
> Continuing this aside: what exactly is the purpose of electric shifting? I 
> assume there is some benefit to someone besides the seller, since someone 
> or other has been trying to make it work since the mid or late '90s. Does 
> it make mis-shifts, which I assume (right? wrong?) are more common with 
> cables the smaller the gaps between cogs, less likely?
>

What's the purpose  of e-shifting?! Are you crazy?!  Of course, its to sell 
more bikes!  Come on, get with it!

But seriously, the latest e-shifting is fast and reliable. Unlike the old 
Mavic Zap stuff from the 90s, this stuff really works. There's basically 
tiny computers controlling the shifting. Most people I know have Shimano 
ultegra di2 and love it. But the one guy with Sram etap loves it too and in 
fact, upgraded his second bike to it. The best thing about etap is there's 
no wires. So if you like your bike to look like a track bike with only 
brakes cables, then this is the system for you!  In contrast, Shimano di2 
does require wires, but many frames, especially carbon ones, are being 
designed to hide the battery and control boxes. Add in a Garmin to track 
everything and being able to upload your latest time and you're set! 

One interesting thing that I notice is you see with all these guys with 
major cross chain where you're in the big cog in the back and big chainring 
at the same time. Further, with 11 speeds, you can get 50/34 chainrings and 
11-32 in the rear. So, you see guys riding in their 50t big ring and 32t 
rear cog, with no noise or protest from the system!   With di2, there's no 
rubbing either as the FD "automatically" shifts to avoid any noise. Now is 
it good for the life of the chain? Who cares, everything is done 
effortlessly!

If you don't have guys in your group with e-shifting, shame on you! No, 
seriously, go down to a LBS and check it out. Go to the big boys - 
Trek/Specialized/C'dale/Giant. You'll see the latest! The big thing in my 
group that got everyone drooling is etap with hydraulic disc brakes. Simply 
amazingGood Luck! 

 

>
>
>
> On Mon, Feb 27, 2017 at 4:23 PM, Steve Palincsar  > wrote:
>
>> Yes, that happened to a woman on a ride I led a couple of weeks ago.  Not 
>> a way to make me fall in love with that technology, unless there's a 
>> special use-case involved.  Those stick them anywhere auxiliary shift 
>> buttons could be a godsend to someone with only one hand that works (and I 
>> have encountered such folks along the way) but certainly for me it's a 
>> solution that offers nothing whatsoever.
>>
>> On 02/27/2017 06:04 PM, Eric Norris wrote:
>>
>> I was on a ride last week when two guys on bikes rolled in to the coffee 
>> place. One was on a bike with electronic shifting. Halfway through a 
>> 40-mile ride, he was stuck in the small ring because the bike’s battery was 
>> low. Granted, he said he hardly ever has to charge the bike’s batteries, 
>> but my “old-fashioned” bikes with cable-actuated shifting will never have 
>> that problem. 
>>
>> Disclaimer: I have plenty of electronics with me when I ride … just not 
>> shifters. If all my batteries died, my bike would still work.
>>
>> --Eric Norris
>> campyo...@me.com 
>> @CampyOnlyguy (Twitter/Instagram)
>>
>> On Feb 27, 2017, at 2:59 PM, Brewster Fong > > wrote:
>>
>> Yeah, my riding buddies all have the latest in bicycles. They're all 
>> drooling over disc brakes and e-shifting and if you don't have either, well 
>> watch out for all the death and destruction!
>>
>> So, I'm the guy with the "old bikes" in the group. Both of my bikes were 
>> both used - a 94-ish Calfee carbon bike and a 90-ish Litespeed Classic. I 
>> bought my Calfee used in 1997 and I believe its a 94 model. It is strong 
>> and I easily expect it to last another 20 years. My litespeed was picked up 
>> a few years ago for $400 and it is now my commuter with fenders and lights. 
>> Both are running Campy 9 speed, although I'm considering "upgrading" the 
>> Calfee to 11 speed as I would like to check out the Campy 3rd gen ergo 
>> levers which I call gumby hood. 
>>
>> I'm old and fat, so I really not interested in the latest. But what's 
>> newGood Luck!
>>
>> On Monday, February 27, 2017 at 6:36:50 AM UTC-8, Addison wrote: 
>>>
>>> I've had people assume my Riv is an "old" bike for a long time now but 
>>> yesterday when I was riding home I stopped to take a photo of the rushing 
>>> Truckee River in Reno and a gent paused to compliment me on my "beautiful 
>>> old bike."  I just said thanks and didn't correct him.  And then it 
>>> occurred to me that I shouldn't correct him because my Allrounder is going 
>>> on 18 years of age.  Many miles but it looks sharp...I've taken care of it 
>>> through commutes and offroading and tours.  Anyway, just ruminating...and 
>>> posting a couple pics.  Happy Monday! 
>>>
>>> 

Re: [RBW] Re: When is a bike old?

[Patrick Moore]

Continuing this aside: what exactly is the purpose of electric shifting? I
assume there is some benefit to someone besides the seller, since someone
or other has been trying to make it work since the mid or late '90s. Does
it make mis-shifts, which I assume (right? wrong?) are more common with
cables the smaller the gaps between cogs, less likely?



On Mon, Feb 27, 2017 at 4:23 PM, Steve Palincsar  wrote:

> Yes, that happened to a woman on a ride I led a couple of weeks ago.  Not
> a way to make me fall in love with that technology, unless there's a
> special use-case involved.  Those stick them anywhere auxiliary shift
> buttons could be a godsend to someone with only one hand that works (and I
> have encountered such folks along the way) but certainly for me it's a
> solution that offers nothing whatsoever.
>
> On 02/27/2017 06:04 PM, Eric Norris wrote:
>
> I was on a ride last week when two guys on bikes rolled in to the coffee
> place. One was on a bike with electronic shifting. Halfway through a
> 40-mile ride, he was stuck in the small ring because the bike’s battery was
> low. Granted, he said he hardly ever has to charge the bike’s batteries,
> but my “old-fashioned” bikes with cable-actuated shifting will never have
> that problem.
>
> Disclaimer: I have plenty of electronics with me when I ride … just not
> shifters. If all my batteries died, my bike would still work.
>
> --Eric Norris
> campyonly...@me.com
> @CampyOnlyguy (Twitter/Instagram)
>
> On Feb 27, 2017, at 2:59 PM, Brewster Fong  wrote:
>
> Yeah, my riding buddies all have the latest in bicycles. They're all
> drooling over disc brakes and e-shifting and if you don't have either, well
> watch out for all the death and destruction!
>
> So, I'm the guy with the "old bikes" in the group. Both of my bikes were
> both used - a 94-ish Calfee carbon bike and a 90-ish Litespeed Classic. I
> bought my Calfee used in 1997 and I believe its a 94 model. It is strong
> and I easily expect it to last another 20 years. My litespeed was picked up
> a few years ago for $400 and it is now my commuter with fenders and lights.
> Both are running Campy 9 speed, although I'm considering "upgrading" the
> Calfee to 11 speed as I would like to check out the Campy 3rd gen ergo
> levers which I call gumby hood.
>
> I'm old and fat, so I really not interested in the latest. But what's
> newGood Luck!
>
> On Monday, February 27, 2017 at 6:36:50 AM UTC-8, Addison wrote:
>>
>> I've had people assume my Riv is an "old" bike for a long time now but
>> yesterday when I was riding home I stopped to take a photo of the rushing
>> Truckee River in Reno and a gent paused to compliment me on my "beautiful
>> old bike."  I just said thanks and didn't correct him.  And then it
>> occurred to me that I shouldn't correct him because my Allrounder is going
>> on 18 years of age.  Many miles but it looks sharp...I've taken care of it
>> through commutes and offroading and tours.  Anyway, just ruminating...and
>> posting a couple pics.  Happy Monday!
>>
>> http://reno-rambler.blogspot.com/2017/02/when-is-bike-old.html
>>
>> Addison Wilhite, M.A.
>>
>>
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world revolves.) *Carthusian motto

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*Kinei hos eromenon.* (*It moves [all things] as the beloved.) *Aristotle

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Re: [RBW] Re: When is a bike old?

[Brewster Fong]

I have to admit that if I was going to go to e-shifting, etap is the way to 
go. Yes, you do have to monitor the battery to make sure its charged, but 
my buddy says he "rarely" ever charges it and probably only does it once a 
month. Still, the wireless feature is kind of neat, makes a bike look like 
a track bike!  

However, I'm the luddite and am holding out against disc brakes. Too many 
standards and it doesn't seem necessary for road bikes. Now off-road is 
different and I hear its great!  In contrast, my "buddies" are amazed that 
I still use single-pivot brakes and haven't killed anyone yet

On Monday, February 27, 2017 at 3:04:14 PM UTC-8, Eric Norris wrote:
>
> I was on a ride last week when two guys on bikes rolled in to the coffee 
> place. One was on a bike with electronic shifting. Halfway through a 
> 40-mile ride, he was stuck in the small ring because the bike’s battery was 
> low. Granted, he said he hardly ever has to charge the bike’s batteries, 
> but my “old-fashioned” bikes with cable-actuated shifting will never have 
> that problem.
>
> Disclaimer: I have plenty of electronics with me when I ride … just not 
> shifters. If all my batteries died, my bike would still work.
>
> --Eric Norris
> campyo...@me.com 
> @CampyOnlyguy (Twitter/Instagram)
>
> On Feb 27, 2017, at 2:59 PM, Brewster Fong  
> wrote:
>
> Yeah, my riding buddies all have the latest in bicycles. They're all 
> drooling over disc brakes and e-shifting and if you don't have either, well 
> watch out for all the death and destruction!
>
> So, I'm the guy with the "old bikes" in the group. Both of my bikes were 
> both used - a 94-ish Calfee carbon bike and a 90-ish Litespeed Classic. I 
> bought my Calfee used in 1997 and I believe its a 94 model. It is strong 
> and I easily expect it to last another 20 years. My litespeed was picked up 
> a few years ago for $400 and it is now my commuter with fenders and lights. 
> Both are running Campy 9 speed, although I'm considering "upgrading" the 
> Calfee to 11 speed as I would like to check out the Campy 3rd gen ergo 
> levers which I call gumby hood. 
>
> I'm old and fat, so I really not interested in the latest. But what's 
> newGood Luck!
>
> On Monday, February 27, 2017 at 6:36:50 AM UTC-8, Addison wrote:
>>
>> I've had people assume my Riv is an "old" bike for a long time now but 
>> yesterday when I was riding home I stopped to take a photo of the rushing 
>> Truckee River in Reno and a gent paused to compliment me on my "beautiful 
>> old bike."  I just said thanks and didn't correct him.  And then it 
>> occurred to me that I shouldn't correct him because my Allrounder is going 
>> on 18 years of age.  Many miles but it looks sharp...I've taken care of it 
>> through commutes and offroading and tours.  Anyway, just ruminating...and 
>> posting a couple pics.  Happy Monday!
>>
>> http://reno-rambler.blogspot.com/2017/02/when-is-bike-old.html
>>
>> Addison Wilhite, M.A. 
>>
>> Academy of Arts, Careers and Technology 
>>  
>>
>> *“Blazing the Trail to College and Career Success”*
>>
>> Educator: Professional Portfolio 
>>
>> Blogger: Reno Rambler  
>>
>>
>>
>>
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>
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: When is a bike old?

[Steve Palincsar]

Yes, that happened to a woman on a ride I led a couple of weeks ago.  
Not a way to make me fall in love with that technology, unless there's a 
special use-case involved.  Those stick them anywhere auxiliary shift 
buttons could be a godsend to someone with only one hand that works (and 
I have encountered such folks along the way) but certainly for me it's a 
solution that offers nothing whatsoever.



On 02/27/2017 06:04 PM, Eric Norris wrote:
I was on a ride last week when two guys on bikes rolled in to the 
coffee place. One was on a bike with electronic shifting. Halfway 
through a 40-mile ride, he was stuck in the small ring because the 
bike’s battery was low. Granted, he said he hardly ever has to charge 
the bike’s batteries, but my “old-fashioned” bikes with cable-actuated 
shifting will never have that problem.


Disclaimer: I have plenty of electronics with me when I ride … just 
not shifters. If all my batteries died, my bike would still work.


--Eric Norris
campyonly...@me.com 
@CampyOnlyguy (Twitter/Instagram)

On Feb 27, 2017, at 2:59 PM, Brewster Fong > wrote:


Yeah, my riding buddies all have the latest in bicycles. They're all 
drooling over disc brakes and e-shifting and if you don't have 
either, well watch out for all the death and destruction!


So, I'm the guy with the "old bikes" in the group. Both of my bikes 
were both used - a 94-ish Calfee carbon bike and a 90-ish Litespeed 
Classic. I bought my Calfee used in 1997 and I believe its a 94 
model. It is strong and I easily expect it to last another 20 years. 
My litespeed was picked up a few years ago for $400 and it is now my 
commuter with fenders and lights. Both are running Campy 9 speed, 
although I'm considering "upgrading" the Calfee to 11 speed as I 
would like to check out the Campy 3rd gen ergo levers which I call 
gumby hood.


I'm old and fat, so I really not interested in the latest. But what's 
newGood Luck!


On Monday, February 27, 2017 at 6:36:50 AM UTC-8, Addison wrote:

I've had people assume my Riv is an "old" bike for a long time
now but yesterday when I was riding home I stopped to take a
photo of the rushing Truckee River in Reno and a gent paused to
compliment me on my "beautiful old bike."  I just said thanks and
didn't correct him.  And then it occurred to me that I shouldn't
correct him because my Allrounder is going on 18 years of age. 
Many miles but it looks sharp...I've taken care of it through

commutes and offroading and tours.  Anyway, just ruminating...and
posting a couple pics.  Happy Monday!

http://reno-rambler.blogspot.com/2017/02/when-is-bike-old.html


Addison Wilhite, M.A.




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Re: [RBW] Re: When is a bike old?

[Steve Palincsar]

Wow.  I sure do like the look of that Bianchi!  Honestly, when you 
factor in that chain guard, crank and fenders, Clementine doesn't stand 
a chance in the "fairest of them all" competition.



On 02/27/2017 05:39 PM, 'Mark in Beacon' via RBW Owners Bunch wrote:
Here's the oldest bicycle in my current stable, a Bianchi 650b city 
bike. Due to poor impulse control, it just got bumped down the line in 
terms of getting it roadworthy.




Of course, despite being, by far, my newest bicycle in terms of date 
of manufacture, my Clementine has an ageless beauty.






On Monday, February 27, 2017 at 9:36:50 AM UTC-5, Addison wrote:

I've had people assume my Riv is an "old" bike for a long time now
but yesterday when I was riding home I stopped to take a photo of
the rushing Truckee River in Reno and a gent paused to compliment
me on my "beautiful old bike."  I just said thanks and didn't
correct him.  And then it occurred to me that I shouldn't correct
him because my Allrounder is going on 18 years of age.  Many miles
but it looks sharp...I've taken care of it through commutes and
offroading and tours.  Anyway, just ruminating...and posting a
couple pics.  Happy Monday!


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Re: [RBW] Re: When is a bike old?

[Eric Norris]

I was on a ride last week when two guys on bikes rolled in to the coffee place. 
One was on a bike with electronic shifting. Halfway through a 40-mile ride, he 
was stuck in the small ring because the bike’s battery was low. Granted, he 
said he hardly ever has to charge the bike’s batteries, but my “old-fashioned” 
bikes with cable-actuated shifting will never have that problem.

Disclaimer: I have plenty of electronics with me when I ride … just not 
shifters. If all my batteries died, my bike would still work.

--Eric Norris
campyonly...@me.com
@CampyOnlyguy (Twitter/Instagram)

> On Feb 27, 2017, at 2:59 PM, Brewster Fong  wrote:
> 
> Yeah, my riding buddies all have the latest in bicycles. They're all drooling 
> over disc brakes and e-shifting and if you don't have either, well watch out 
> for all the death and destruction!
> 
> So, I'm the guy with the "old bikes" in the group. Both of my bikes were both 
> used - a 94-ish Calfee carbon bike and a 90-ish Litespeed Classic. I bought 
> my Calfee used in 1997 and I believe its a 94 model. It is strong and I 
> easily expect it to last another 20 years. My litespeed was picked up a few 
> years ago for $400 and it is now my commuter with fenders and lights. Both 
> are running Campy 9 speed, although I'm considering "upgrading" the Calfee to 
> 11 speed as I would like to check out the Campy 3rd gen ergo levers which I 
> call gumby hood. 
> 
> I'm old and fat, so I really not interested in the latest. But what's 
> newGood Luck!
> 
> On Monday, February 27, 2017 at 6:36:50 AM UTC-8, Addison wrote:
> I've had people assume my Riv is an "old" bike for a long time now but 
> yesterday when I was riding home I stopped to take a photo of the rushing 
> Truckee River in Reno and a gent paused to compliment me on my "beautiful old 
> bike."  I just said thanks and didn't correct him.  And then it occurred to 
> me that I shouldn't correct him because my Allrounder is going on 18 years of 
> age.  Many miles but it looks sharp...I've taken care of it through commutes 
> and offroading and tours.  Anyway, just ruminating...and posting a couple 
> pics.  Happy Monday!
> 
> http://reno-rambler.blogspot.com/2017/02/when-is-bike-old.html 
> 
> Addison Wilhite, M.A. 
> 
> Academy of Arts, Careers and Technology  
> 
> “Blazing the Trail to College and Career Success”
> 
> Educator: Professional Portfolio 
> Blogger: Reno Rambler  
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
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[RBW] Re: When is a bike old?

[Brewster Fong]

Yeah, my riding buddies all have the latest in bicycles. They're all 
drooling over disc brakes and e-shifting and if you don't have either, well 
watch out for all the death and destruction!

So, I'm the guy with the "old bikes" in the group. Both of my bikes were 
both used - a 94-ish Calfee carbon bike and a 90-ish Litespeed Classic. I 
bought my Calfee used in 1997 and I believe its a 94 model. It is strong 
and I easily expect it to last another 20 years. My litespeed was picked up 
a few years ago for $400 and it is now my commuter with fenders and lights. 
Both are running Campy 9 speed, although I'm considering "upgrading" the 
Calfee to 11 speed as I would like to check out the Campy 3rd gen ergo 
levers which I call gumby hood. 

I'm old and fat, so I really not interested in the latest. But what's 
newGood Luck!

On Monday, February 27, 2017 at 6:36:50 AM UTC-8, Addison wrote:
>
> I've had people assume my Riv is an "old" bike for a long time now but 
> yesterday when I was riding home I stopped to take a photo of the rushing 
> Truckee River in Reno and a gent paused to compliment me on my "beautiful 
> old bike."  I just said thanks and didn't correct him.  And then it 
> occurred to me that I shouldn't correct him because my Allrounder is going 
> on 18 years of age.  Many miles but it looks sharp...I've taken care of it 
> through commutes and offroading and tours.  Anyway, just ruminating...and 
> posting a couple pics.  Happy Monday!
>
> http://reno-rambler.blogspot.com/2017/02/when-is-bike-old.html
>
> Addison Wilhite, M.A. 
>
> Academy of Arts, Careers and Technology 
>  
>
> *“Blazing the Trail to College and Career Success”*
>
> Educator: Professional Portfolio 
>
> Blogger: Reno Rambler  
>
>
>
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: When is a bike old?

[Tim Gavin]

Wow, I love the carbide headlamp on that Flying Merkel.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbide_lamp

The "halloween backgammon" paint job is awesome too.

On Mon, Feb 27, 2017 at 1:11 PM, Ron Mc  wrote:

> ps - a 1917 Flying Merkel
>
> 
>
> looks pretty Rivesque from a distance
>
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[RBW] Re: When is a bike old?

[Ron Mc]

ps - a 1917 Flying Merkel



looks pretty Rivesque from a distance

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[RBW] Re: When is a bike old?

[Ron Mc]

Stopped in my LBS today to get a new Whitworth 26 tpi headsead installed on 
a 57 Lenton GP bare frame and original fork I bought recently.  
On they build stand they had (another) new Cervelo P5.  
How's that for a contrast?  

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[RBW] Re: When is a bike old?

[drew]

My SO's dad consistently claims that his best friend had the same bike 
(hunqapillar) when they were younger. ive given up trying to say otherwise. 
i think he just sees green+lugs=same bike

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[RBW] Re: When is a bike old?

[Jock Dewey]

Addison, et. al.:

Yes, indeed, been thinking a lot about that lately myself. Other riders 
comment favorably all the time on my beautiful 'old' bike, even when it was 
'new' in 2004. Like you, I just smile and thank them for their kind 
generosity and sharp eye. And actually, some bits ARE what even I would 
call old -- but also some, quite a few actually, are new as almost 
yesterday.

Someone once wisely advised me that 'there's no need to educate the bus 
driver if you're getting off at the next stop.' But we all like to receive 
the 'thanks' due to a fine compliment.

So here's my pix for the day on that machine.

Cheers!

Jock Dewey / Athens, GA

On Monday, February 27, 2017 at 9:36:50 AM UTC-5, Addison wrote:
>
> I've had people assume my Riv is an "old" bike for a long time now but 
> yesterday when I was riding home I stopped to take a photo of the rushing 
> Truckee River in Reno and a gent paused to compliment me on my "beautiful 
> old bike."  I just said thanks and didn't correct him.  And then it 
> occurred to me that I shouldn't correct him because my Allrounder is going 
> on 18 years of age.  Many miles but it looks sharp...I've taken care of it 
> through commutes and offroading and tours.  Anyway, just ruminating...and 
> posting a couple pics.  Happy Monday!
>
> http://reno-rambler.blogspot.com/2017/02/when-is-bike-old.html
>
> Addison Wilhite, M.A. 
>
> Academy of Arts, Careers and Technology 
>  
>
> *“Blazing the Trail to College and Career Success”*
>
> Educator: Professional Portfolio 
>
> Blogger: Reno Rambler  
>
>
>
>

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