Re: [RBW] "Winter" clothing help

[Conway Bennett]

I'd like to put it out there that anyone here who thinks they want to go the 
Patagonia route I will send you a 40% friends and family discount.  I've worked 
there for 8 years and have been a year round bike commuter just as long, and I 
think the nano air works in the widest range of temperature and provides just 
enough wind protection without creating a vapor barrier.  On really cold days I 
wear an R1 fleece underneath.  A Houdini will breaker is invaluable when you 
need it and I  have one the lives in my bar bag.  Admittedly I read thread 
early on then it got too long so maybe I reiterated things that have been said. 
 I really just want to get great people with great bikes great gear so they 
keep riding.  

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Re: [RBW] "Winter" clothing help

[Tim Butterfield]

Thanks for confirming, Steve.

Now I just need to determine which to get for my use in the PNW where it is
cool and often wet in fall, winter, and spring.  A read back through prior
threads may help me there.  My use will be general in addition to on the
bicycle.  A Glencoe DV may be the most versatile and likely most
comfortable during winter, though a Talorc HV may be more comfortable in
fall and spring.  The Braemer HV is tempting also.  It certainly looks
nice, but a full zip jacket is likely more versatile.  Hmmm.  It's a good
thing I'm not in a hurry. :)

Tim

On Sat, Dec 9, 2017 at 6:20 AM, Steve Palincsar  wrote:

> From what I can see on their web site, Hilltrek garments are all made of
> Ventile.  I have a Westwinds Ventile jacket. Ventile is tightly woven
> cotton.  It's got a hard, smooth finish that isn't either nappy or sticky.
>

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Re: [RBW] "Winter" clothing help

[Steve Palincsar]

From what I can see on their web site, Hilltrek garments are all made 
of Ventile.  I have a Westwinds Ventile jacket. Ventile is tightly woven 
cotton.  It's got a hard, smooth finish that isn't either nappy or sticky.



On 12/08/2017 10:53 PM, Tim Butterfield wrote:
I am thinking of getting my first Hilltrek garment.  I am not sure 
which one yet, but I have a question about the fabrics.  Since they 
are not inexpensive, I would like to find out about something before 
making the investment.  It relates to how they react to pet fur.


Here are how some of the fabrics I have experience with have reacted 
to the fur of our white German Shepherd Dog Polortec synthetics seem 
to be a magnet.  Fabric collects fur and it gets embedded in it 
easily.  A long session with a lint roller or tape is needed to remove 
it all.  The Filsen waxed cotton tin cloth has a slight nap that seems 
to easily trap fur and the wax acts as a slight adhesive to help it 
adhere. Removing the pet fur is not as bad as Polartec, but it isn't 
really easy either.  It adheres slightly to tightly woven wools, but 
is fairly easily removed with a lint roller with the occasional piece 
needing to be pulled out.  The Filsen waxed cotton shelter cloth does 
not have the nap of the tin cloth and fur is more easily brushed off.  
The most resistant to pet fur seem to be leather, nylon, and 
waterproof breathable synthetic membrane fabrics where fur just falls off.


So, how do the Hilltrek fabrics react to pet fur?  Does it get 
embedded like a Polartec, stick to it like tin cloth, or fall off like 
with leather or a membrane synthetic?


Thanks.

Tim




On Tue, Dec 5, 2017 at 10:56 AM, Deacon Patrick > wrote:


Fred,

40 and dry, easy. 40 and wet, challenging. It’s all about moisture
management. In Colorado, when we have thunderstorms in spring,
summer, and fall, temps easly are in the 40’s or 50’s with high
humidity (90+%).

The key to either begins with the baselayer. Fishnet longjohns.
https://www.brynjeusa.com

Depending on how warmblooded you are, on a dry day you may only
need a thin shirt over that (I wear a medium weight cotton flannel
shirt over mind for freezing up to 50’s.) No other layer required.

When wet, you have a choice. Dither and play with the synthetics
trying to make them work and spending a lot discovering they do
not, or pony up once for Ventile and/or Cotton Anlalogy from
Hilltrek and be done with it. http://hilltrek.co.uk When wind or
wet or both get added to the mix, it’s spot on what to wear as
your outer layer. Breathes almost like a t-shirt, keeps wet out,
so you get wet neither from your sweat nor from rain/sleet/snow.

Gloves, get the boiled wool gloves from here:

https://www.sweaterchalet.com/dachstein-woolwear-boiled-wool-sweaters-mitts-socks-caps-gloves/


and you’ll be fine down to 25 or so. They have a leather palmed
one if you like. I just wear their mitten, no leather palm. Works
great (15˚F on today’s ride, no overmit needed). Also, their 3-ply
hat is brilliant for those conditions (4-ply is overkill by far).
Socks too, but you may need larger shoes or you’ll just cut off
your blood supply to your feet and be VERY cold and think the
socks don’t work.) Or the hood on the jacket may be all you need.

Not light weight, but if you have to stop riding unexpectadly,
you’ll be comfortable and warm. Play with the layering, how heavy
an insulative layer (I switch to a sweater below 20˚F) and when to
wear/not wear your ventile shell and you’re golden and toasty.

With abandon,
Patrick

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Re: [RBW] "Winter" clothing help

[Tim Butterfield]

On Fri, Dec 8, 2017 at 8:13 PM, Deacon Patrick  wrote:

> Tim, if you have an unwaxed cotton canvas jacket or tarp or jeans or woven
> shirt, that’s how it will respond to pet fur. Essentially a non-issue.


So, no nap to catch the fur.  That's good to know.

Thanks.

Tim

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Re: [RBW] "Winter" clothing help

[Deacon Patrick]

Tim, if you have an unwaxed cotton canvas jacket or tarp or jeans or woven 
shirt, that’s how it will respond to pet fur. Essentially a non-issue.

With abandon,
Patrick

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Re: [RBW] "Winter" clothing help

[Tim Butterfield]

I am thinking of getting my first Hilltrek garment.  I am not sure which
one yet, but I have a question about the fabrics.  Since they are not
inexpensive, I would like to find out about something before making the
investment.  It relates to how they react to pet fur.

Here are how some of the fabrics I have experience with have reacted to the
fur of our white German Shepherd Dog  Polortec synthetics seem to be a
magnet.  Fabric collects fur and it gets embedded in it easily.  A long
session with a lint roller or tape is needed to remove it all.  The Filsen
waxed cotton tin cloth has a slight nap that seems to easily trap fur and
the wax acts as a slight adhesive to help it adhere.  Removing the pet fur
is not as bad as Polartec, but it isn't really easy either.  It adheres
slightly to tightly woven wools, but is fairly easily removed with a lint
roller with the occasional piece needing to be pulled out.  The Filsen
waxed cotton shelter cloth does not have the nap of the tin cloth and fur
is more easily brushed off.  The most resistant to pet fur seem to be
leather, nylon, and waterproof breathable synthetic membrane fabrics where
fur just falls off.

So, how do the Hilltrek fabrics react to pet fur?  Does it get embedded
like a Polartec, stick to it like tin cloth, or fall off like with leather
or a membrane synthetic?

Thanks.

Tim




On Tue, Dec 5, 2017 at 10:56 AM, Deacon Patrick  wrote:

> Fred,
>
> 40 and dry, easy. 40 and wet, challenging. It’s all about moisture
> management. In Colorado, when we have thunderstorms in spring, summer, and
> fall, temps easly are in the 40’s or 50’s with high humidity (90+%).
>
> The key to either begins with the baselayer. Fishnet longjohns.
> https://www.brynjeusa.com
>
> Depending on how warmblooded you are, on a dry day you may only need a
> thin shirt over that (I wear a medium weight cotton flannel shirt over mind
> for freezing up to 50’s.) No other layer required.
>
> When wet, you have a choice. Dither and play with the synthetics trying to
> make them work and spending a lot discovering they do not, or pony up once
> for Ventile and/or Cotton Anlalogy from Hilltrek and be done with it.
> http://hilltrek.co.uk When wind or wet or both get added to the mix, it’s
> spot on what to wear as your outer layer. Breathes almost like a t-shirt,
> keeps wet out, so you get wet neither from your sweat nor from
> rain/sleet/snow.
>
> Gloves, get the boiled wool gloves from here:
> https://www.sweaterchalet.com/dachstein-woolwear-boiled-
> wool-sweaters-mitts-socks-caps-gloves/ and you’ll be fine down to 25 or
> so. They have a leather palmed one if you like. I just wear their mitten,
> no leather palm. Works great (15˚F on today’s ride, no overmit needed).
> Also, their 3-ply hat is brilliant for those conditions (4-ply is overkill
> by far). Socks too, but you may need larger shoes or you’ll just cut off
> your blood supply to your feet and be VERY cold and think the socks don’t
> work.) Or the hood on the jacket may be all you need.
>
> Not light weight, but if you have to stop riding unexpectadly, you’ll be
> comfortable and warm. Play with the layering, how heavy an insulative layer
> (I switch to a sweater below 20˚F) and when to wear/not wear your ventile
> shell and you’re golden and toasty.
>
> With abandon,
> Patrick
>
>

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Re: [RBW] "Winter" clothing help

[Deacon Patrick]

Wiggy’s top is $38. $88 is for the set.

With abandon,
Patrick

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Re: [RBW] "Winter" clothing help

[Tim Gavin]

Deacon-  I appreciate your suggestion of fishnet base layers.  I do not
doubt their effectiveness.  But "feels like wearing a nylon fishing net"
for $88 (Wiggy's) doesn't sound attractive.  Nor does the price of the
Brynje versions.

I'm in the "buy used at half price or less" budget range (including my
Riv), so I'm not seeing fishnet as a realistic option.  The <$10 apiece
synthetic stuff is doing pretty well for me now and staying within my
budget.


Bill in Roswell-  In my experience, sweaty merino wool chills my chest, and
I can't warm up until I remove it and get indoors.  That is way worse than
any over-cooling from the synthetics at higher wind speed.  My merino is
top-shelf Ibex stuff (bought used from listmembers) but it doesn't wick
fast enough for my sweat level.
The synthetic base layer wicks fast enough for my core to warm back up even
if I get a little chilled.
I wear a wind-blocking vest over my synthetic and merino layers, and that
keeps my core from getting too chilled.  And I've never experienced a
situation where my exposed arms (with a two layers of merino over synthetic
but no wind-blocking) cool faster than they warm up from activity (down to
about 0 degrees F).


But, everyone's bodies are different.  For example, it has to be below 15 F
before I put on heavy gloves or an additional head covering.  Merino liner
gloves inside normal full-finger cycling gloves, and my vented Bern
Brentwood with a thin winter liner are sufficient for me in most cold
weather.
Many other folks need to bundle up a lot sooner; I'm just a furnace when I
ride.  It also matters that my winter riding is more often MTB and fat bike
"stomping", which is high-intensity but lower relative wind speed.  I stay
off the paved roads most of the year, and especially so in the winter.


On Thu, Dec 7, 2017 at 3:07 AM, Deacon Patrick  wrote:

> Tim said, “However, I've found that I sweat too much to use merino wool as
> a base layer; it eventually ends up clammy and cold against my skin.”
> Bill in Roswell said “there is a temp point for me where the efficiency of
> synthetics at moving moisture causes "chill off", i.e. cooling too fast.”
>
> Fishnet, lads. Fishnet. Then, what your insulative layer is no longer
> matters. To test this out I rode with my insulative layer as a heavy cotton
> flannel straight from the wringer and slightly dripping wet still at -10˚F,
> sandwiched between fishnet base layer and ventile jacket for over an hour.
> Though not toasty warm, it worked a charm, though the sleeves near the
> wrist froze, I was only slightly chilled. After that, I had no problem
> riding with cotton as my insulative layer, because no matter how much I
> sweat, it’ll still be dryer than that. Grin. Wiggy’s version costs less
> (and is the one I did the extreme test with), but feels like wearing a
> nylon fishing net. The merino wool Brynje version costs more but feels much
> better next to the skin. May be overkill for GA though?
>
> With abandon,
> Patrick
>
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Re: [RBW] "Winter" clothing help

[Deacon Patrick]

Tim said, “However, I've found that I sweat too much to use merino wool as a 
base layer; it eventually ends up clammy and cold against my skin.”
Bill in Roswell said “there is a temp point for me where the efficiency of 
synthetics at moving moisture causes "chill off", i.e. cooling too fast.”

Fishnet, lads. Fishnet. Then, what your insulative layer is no longer matters. 
To test this out I rode with my insulative layer as a heavy cotton flannel 
straight from the wringer and slightly dripping wet still at -10˚F, sandwiched 
between fishnet base layer and ventile jacket for over an hour. Though not 
toasty warm, it worked a charm, though the sleeves near the wrist froze, I was 
only slightly chilled. After that, I had no problem riding with cotton as my 
insulative layer, because no matter how much I sweat, it’ll still be dryer than 
that. Grin. Wiggy’s version costs less (and is the one I did the extreme test 
with), but feels like wearing a nylon fishing net. The merino wool Brynje 
version costs more but feels much better next to the skin. May be overkill for 
GA though?

With abandon,
Patrick

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Re: [RBW] "Winter" clothing help

[Patrick Moore]

Back when I was commuting 20-35 miles per day, I recall wearing a thickish
Swobo winter jersey under a mid-weight nylon cycling windbreaker, just the
2 layers down to below 40*F, with gloves, hat, etc, of course. I'd start
sweating within a few miles, and by the time I got to work, the back of the
jersey was soaked. (That's why I stopped wearing non-breathing jackets
without removable sleeves.)

But the wet wool jersey never felt cold and clammy, as I recall synthetics
feeling when I used to wear them in the '90s and very early '00s -- I gave
them up for wool for this reason. Even the nicer synthetics of the time,
that didn't stink after 15 minutes of body contact, still felt clammy and
chill when wet and when you stopped exerting yourself. Again, not so, for
me, with wool.

And wool does have the reputation of keeping you warm even when it is wet,
which is why, I guess, fishermen in Iceland and the Faroe Islands wear very
heavy wool sweaters at sea, or at least, they used to do so.

Patrick Moore, who wishes he still had that Swobo jersey (and can't recall
why he got rid of it), in mid-40s-high ABQ, NM.

Aside: for the original lister: I went out for a slightly breezy ride this
afternoon, about 45*F, humidity in the low/mid 20s, wearing a lighter
weight merino ls jersey under a mid-weight Gore Tex vest with (essential
for me) high, zip up collar. A wee bit chilish for the first 2 miles, but
after that, very comfortable.

On Wed, Dec 6, 2017 at 8:30 PM, Bill in Roswell GA 
wrote:

> Tim, interesting point. I also sweat buckets, but there is a temp point
> for me where the efficiency of synthetics at moving moisture causes "chill
> off", i.e. cooling too fast. Thus merino for next to skin in winter. When
> mountain hiking in cold, I also use that same method of synthetic next to
> skin, merino mid layer, and windproof outer layer (usually a vest).
>
> Cheers,
> Bill in Roswell GA
>
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Re: [RBW] "Winter" clothing help

[Bill in Roswell GA]

Tim, interesting point. I also sweat buckets, but there is a temp point for me 
where the efficiency of synthetics at moving moisture causes "chill off", i.e. 
cooling too fast. Thus merino for next to skin in winter. When mountain hiking 
in cold, I also use that same method of synthetic next to skin, merino mid 
layer, and windproof outer layer (usually a vest).

Cheers,
Bill in Roswell GA

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Re: [RBW] "Winter" clothing help

[Will]

Been there with the wool and polarfleece stuff. 

I think Wiggy's has a better solution. His Lamilite stuff is great: very 
light in weight, comfortable thru a wide temp range, and easily machine 
washable... which wool is not (easily washed and dried). 

His Kodiac mittens are wonderful for cold bike days. 

On Tuesday, December 5, 2017 at 12:57:28 PM UTC-6, Patrick Moore wrote:
>
> Wool, wool, wool, and more wool, with for very cold weather some sort of 
> wind blocking garment; I have vests of varying weights and a cycling jacket 
> with zip off sleeves. But you could use a windbreaker, though I found 
> myself sweating a great deal as I rode -- which is why I like the zip off 
> arms.
>
> Several thin layers are better than one thick layer; layers insulate 
> better, and you can add or remove to fine tune for comfort.
>
> I rather like ss wool jerseys with wool arm warmers, but a ls wool jersey 
> over a base layer is nice, too.
>
> Shoes: I use REI commodity wool socks in my cycling shoes; add plastic 
> bags over socks and under shoes if it's colder; add thin wool base layer 
> socks if colder; add shoe covers if colder still; have a pair of Lake boots 
> for coldest; but if you use regular shoes, all you need is a layer or 2 of 
> wool socks.
>
> Head: I've got plenty of hair, so I need to protect just my ears: cycling 
> caps with flaps, or the inexpensive fake Peruvian wool or fake wool knit 
> caps with earflaps.
>
> Gloves: DeFeet wool gloves down to 40 or so; then layer under a wind 
> breaking glove.
>
> Your winter temps in Dallas can't be colder than ours in 5000 foot ABQ, 
> NM, so this ought to do you well.
>
> On Tue, Dec 5, 2017 at 11:02 AM, Fred Craven  > wrote:
>
>> It's fast approaching winter I would like to keep riding to work. My 
>> problem is that I don't have any appropriate winter cycling clothing. 30 
>> years ago, I had some wool tights and jerseys, with layers that worked just 
>> fine.
>>
>> I can go "all cyclist" and get fancy winter cycling clothes on line or at 
>> a LBS (We have several good LBS' in our area); however, I would like to 
>> keep to the spirit of a stealth "Rivendell" look if at all possible. 
>> Currently I layer up with various regular daily clothing. I don't have 
>> proper face protection, and I don't have proper gloves...I don't have 
>> proper anything, really. The wind simply cuts through.
>>
>> I'm in the Dallas area, so we really haven't had much cold yet, but I 
>> would like to be able to ride comfortably in the 40s. I know that many of 
>> you do that. I'm open for suggestions. 
>>
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>
>
>
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Re: [RBW] "Winter" clothing help

[Tim Gavin]

I ride all winter here in Cedar Rapids, IA, and I agree with most of the
others' suggestions.

However, I've found that I sweat too much to use merino wool as a base
layer; it eventually ends up clammy and cold against my skin.  I've found
that a wicking synthetic base layer (like spandex/polyproplene) keeps me
warmer because it keeps me dryer.  Everyone's body is different.

I wear one or two layers of merino wool over the synthetic base layer, and
then a shell vest (a packable gilet) is usually all that's required.

On Wed, Dec 6, 2017 at 12:11 AM, Bill in Roswell GA 
wrote:

> Fred, having lived in Dallas/OKC/Tulsa for over 20 years, I know the
> primary winter enemy is wind. If it is wet and blowing a blue norther
> you're. likely not riding. I mean, NTX is not Chicago or Boston, so what
> would be the point. Most winter precipitation in Dallas is cold rain or
> sleet in a region infamous for ice storms.
>
> Anyways, Smartwool/other merino wool underlayers, soft-shell outer layer
> which is windproof, breathes well and is very water resistant. Adjust
> insulating mid-layer for the wind chill. REI has a nice cycling slack-like
> soft-shell made for commuting. Merino wool next-to-skin layers will not
> develop the body funk as do synthetics.
>
> Other comments covered hat/gloves/neck gator/shoe-toe covers. I would also
> add a hi vis. helmet cover like Sugoi makes. Pearl Izumi Lobster glove/mitt
> is hard to beat for weatherproof warmth with dexterity.
>
> Keep some chemical hand/toe warmers in your bag for those mid-day cold
> fronts. You can put a partially used hand warmer in a zip lock to stop the
> chemical reaction for later use. Cheap insurance for those days you don't
> have quite enough insulation!
>
> Cheers, Bill in warmer, less windy Roswell, GA
>
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Re: [RBW] "Winter" clothing help

[Belopsky]

Lots of wool and breathable windproofing. 

I spoke with Patagonia about what they would recommend and picked up an R1 
fleece as well as a Storm Racer jacket (good for running for me as well)

Recently got these but have not taken them on a ride yet 
https://lakecycling.com/products/mxz-200?variant=44972936969

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Re: [RBW] "Winter" clothing help

[lum gim fong]

What works for me down into the 20'sF.:

Head (any mixture of these):
Wool skullcap
Wool balaklava
Wool cycling cap
Helmet (great wind blocker for me).
Sunglasses by day.
WalMart display clear plastic glasses at night.

Upper body:
Wool baselayer shirts.
J breatheable rain jacket (acts good as windshell so wind wont cut thru wool 
layers) It is very vented. Not perfect but works for me on long rides. Without 
it I can see redness on trunk where wind penetrated the wool. So the jacket has 
been great for me.

Hands:
Any gloves that work. Doesn't have to be cycling specific. But rubber on 
fingers helps grip brake levers.

Legs:
Wool baselayers.
Rivendell MUSA long pants.

Feet:
Leather Nike sneakers on flat pedals.
Wool socks.
I don't need two layers of socks until I get doen into the 20'sF.

Caveat:
After 30 miles in the cold my thighs and knees sometimes complain.
But sub-20 mile commutes and other riding I'm fine with any combo of layers 
with the above.
For distance riding I'd definitely use wool tights with Boure tights over top. 
Better for keeping legs warm so far on longer rides.

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Re: [RBW] "Winter" clothing help

[Patrick Moore]

Wool, wool, wool, and more wool, with for very cold weather some sort of
wind blocking garment; I have vests of varying weights and a cycling jacket
with zip off sleeves. But you could use a windbreaker, though I found
myself sweating a great deal as I rode -- which is why I like the zip off
arms.

Several thin layers are better than one thick layer; layers insulate
better, and you can add or remove to fine tune for comfort.

I rather like ss wool jerseys with wool arm warmers, but a ls wool jersey
over a base layer is nice, too.

Shoes: I use REI commodity wool socks in my cycling shoes; add plastic bags
over socks and under shoes if it's colder; add thin wool base layer socks
if colder; add shoe covers if colder still; have a pair of Lake boots for
coldest; but if you use regular shoes, all you need is a layer or 2 of wool
socks.

Head: I've got plenty of hair, so I need to protect just my ears: cycling
caps with flaps, or the inexpensive fake Peruvian wool or fake wool knit
caps with earflaps.

Gloves: DeFeet wool gloves down to 40 or so; then layer under a wind
breaking glove.

Your winter temps in Dallas can't be colder than ours in 5000 foot ABQ, NM,
so this ought to do you well.

On Tue, Dec 5, 2017 at 11:02 AM, Fred Craven  wrote:

> It's fast approaching winter I would like to keep riding to work. My
> problem is that I don't have any appropriate winter cycling clothing. 30
> years ago, I had some wool tights and jerseys, with layers that worked just
> fine.
>
> I can go "all cyclist" and get fancy winter cycling clothes on line or at
> a LBS (We have several good LBS' in our area); however, I would like to
> keep to the spirit of a stealth "Rivendell" look if at all possible.
> Currently I layer up with various regular daily clothing. I don't have
> proper face protection, and I don't have proper gloves...I don't have
> proper anything, really. The wind simply cuts through.
>
> I'm in the Dallas area, so we really haven't had much cold yet, but I
> would like to be able to ride comfortably in the 40s. I know that many of
> you do that. I'm open for suggestions.
>
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