Re: [RBW] Re: Differences between Sam Hillborne and A Homer Hilsen

[aeroperf]

Re-reading this a year or more later - I'm still looking for someone to 
post who rode both a Homer and a Sam extensively, and kept the Homer.
Anyone?

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Re: [RBW] Re: Differences between Sam Hillborne and A Homer Hilsen

[Brian Turner]

Correct. I’ve seen the “w” caps on Toyo and Waterford Rivs alike.On Nov 4, 2023, at 5:45 PM, Greg J  wrote:That seat stay cap was used across various models - I don't know if it is a Riv-sourced custom piece - but it doesn't have anything to do with Waterford (nor is it intended to be a "W" - just a decoration.On Friday, September 2, 2022 at 3:51:23 PM UTC-7 Hetchins52 wrote:Here’s mine. A Toyo by its serial number and Frank’s pics. You can see one of the third water bottle mounts at the top in the photo.Year? I don’t know. I bought the frameset third-hand, six years ago, and thought it might be 2009 using some of the info on CycloFiend.DavidOn Friday, September 2, 2022 at 2:47:51 PM UTC-7 frank_a wrote:The serial number will tell you if it’s a Toyo or Waterford built frame.Toyo serial numbers are large and run across the bb shell while the Waterford numbers are smaller and are oriented around the shell, parallel to the outer edge. One photo is a Saluki and the other photo is a Waterford built Rosco.The Toyo Atlantis’ read: AT0001 and so on, Homer: AH0001SA0026 - the 26th Saluki- FrankOn Friday, September 2, 2022 at 11:26:35 AM UTC-4 lconley wrote:I looked on Cyclofiend and where they were visible, the Atlantises all appeared to have the W. It may not be related to Waterford after all.LaingOn Friday, September 2, 2022 at 10:48:29 AM UTC-4 Danny wrote:The early Atlantis brochures show the W on the seat stay cap with Toyo being the only listed builder in the brochures. My Riv knowledge is not very deep, so perhaps Waterford was building the Atlantis as well at that time? or Riv was buying the seat stay caps from them?Atlantis 2001 brochureAtlantis 2002 brochure-DannyOn Fri, Sep 2, 2022 at 7:41 AM Bill Schairer  wrote:In general, is one not able to tell from the serial number?Bill SSan DiegoOn Thursday, September 1, 2022 at 11:50:12 AM UTC-7 RichS wrote:That is a first class detail. Don’t believe it was on my formerly owned 2014 Waterford Atlantis so perhaps the W was featured on certain models? I am fond of concave seat stay caps though. Happy that they’re on my Sam.Best,Rich in ATLOn Thu, Sep 1, 2022 at 1:06 PM, J J  wrote:Laing, thanks for the interesting bit about Waterford-built frames. This is the first I hear. I never noticed the W as a deliberate W (as opposed to being strictly an embellishment) on my Waterford Hunqapillar, so it was cool to see it for what it is. I had to check the other Rivs in the stable, all Toyo built, and of course none has the W.Thanks again!On Thursday, September 1, 2022 at 9:47:06 AM UTC-4 lconley wrote:Don't Waterford frames have a distinctive seat stay end cap with a 'W" in the recess - my Bombadil does. This is a better picture from the Waterford site, but the same as my Bombadil:LaingOn Thursday, September 1, 2022 at 3:05:54 AM UTC-4 Joe Bernard wrote:THAT'S it. I knew there was a difference between the two but couldn't remember the detail change. But I think yours is backwards, my recollection is Toyo had two sets of bottle bosses and the later Waterford got the third set. On Thursday, September 1, 2022 at 12:01:05 AM UTC-7 Hetchins52 wrote:Not sure that it is totally definitive but I expect the Toyo AHH to have three water bottle boss pairs and the Waterford to have two pairs (none under the down tube).David LipskyOn Wednesday, August 31, 2022 at 7:11:42 PM UTC-7 James wrote:I have an older AHH.  Anyone know how I can tell if it's Toyo or Waterford made?On Wednesday, August 31, 2022 at 5:52:35 PM UTC-4 maxcr wrote:I had an older MUSA AHH 61 (2006-ish?) and a Taiwan Sam 62 (2015-ish) with 2TT and for a brief spell I also had a 2TT 58. All of them were 700C. I should also say that they are all gone at this point, nothing wrong with them except my own unnecessary searching for the next shiny object.Both are amazing frames and can be set up very similarly - I think your tires, racks and handlebars would probably determine the feel and ride more than the frame geo, tubing or anything else.Some details on the way mine were set up: both had front and rear racks, sidepull brakes and short stems:AHH 700x38 + dropbarsSH 62  700x44 + dropbarsSH 58 700x42 + AlbatrossIt has been said that the Sam is burlier or that the tubing on the Homer is slightly lighter and the lugs are more elegant. To me, they were both equally capable, perhaps the 2TT Sam felt a tad stiffer particularly when loaded, but it certainly didn't feel slower. Also, at no point did I feel like my AHH couldn't carry as much as the Sam. Are you trying to decide which one you'd buy? If so, I would choose based on availability, color, badge, name, which one do you find more beautiful? Oh and sizing: which one fits you better? If you can find a frame where you fall in the middle of the suggested PBH range for either the Sam or the AHH I would choose that.Not sure if this helps, but I think Grant said it best when he said it was hard to tell one from the other when you were riding 

Re: [RBW] Re: Differences between Sam Hillborne and A Homer Hilsen

[Greg J]

That seat stay cap was used across various models - I don't know if it is a 
Riv-sourced custom piece - but it doesn't have anything to do with 
Waterford (nor is it intended to be a "W" - just a decoration.

On Friday, September 2, 2022 at 3:51:23 PM UTC-7 Hetchins52 wrote:

> Here’s mine. A Toyo by its serial number and Frank’s pics. You can see one 
> of the third water bottle mounts at the top in the photo.
> Year? I don’t know. I bought the frameset third-hand, six years ago, and 
> thought it might be 2009 using some of the info on CycloFiend.
>
> David
> On Friday, September 2, 2022 at 2:47:51 PM UTC-7 frank_a wrote:
>
>> [image: 7052F7D8-A7C3-40E9-BF7D-7549C10B03C0.jpeg][image: 
>> C25083FA-4E17-4971-90D1-18B4084AC777.jpeg]
>> The serial number will tell you if it’s a Toyo or Waterford built frame.
>> Toyo serial numbers are large and run across the bb shell while the 
>> Waterford numbers are smaller and are oriented around the shell, parallel 
>> to the outer edge. One photo is a Saluki and the other photo is a Waterford 
>> built Rosco.
>> The Toyo Atlantis’ read: AT0001 and so on, Homer: AH0001
>> SA0026 - the 26th Saluki
>> - Frank
>>
>> On Friday, September 2, 2022 at 11:26:35 AM UTC-4 lconley wrote:
>>
>>> I looked on Cyclofiend and where they were visible, the Atlantises all 
>>> appeared to have the W. It may not be related to Waterford after all.
>>>
>>> Laing
>>>
>>> On Friday, September 2, 2022 at 10:48:29 AM UTC-4 Danny wrote:
>>>
 The early Atlantis brochures show the W on the seat stay cap with Toyo 
 being the only listed builder in the brochures. My Riv knowledge is not 
 very deep, so perhaps Waterford was building the Atlantis as well at that 
 time? or Riv was buying the seat stay caps from them?

 Atlantis 2001 brochure 
 
 Atlantis 2002 brochure 
 

 [image: Screen Shot 2022-09-02 at 9.15.04 AM Medium.jpeg]
 [image: Screen Shot 2022-09-02 at 9.36.37 AM Medium.jpeg]

 -Danny







 On Fri, Sep 2, 2022 at 7:41 AM Bill Schairer  wrote:

> In general, is one not able to tell from the serial number?
>
> Bill S
> San Diego
>
> On Thursday, September 1, 2022 at 11:50:12 AM UTC-7 RichS wrote:
>
>> That is a first class detail. Don’t believe it was on my formerly 
>> owned 2014 Waterford Atlantis so perhaps the W was featured on certain 
>> models? I am fond of concave seat stay caps though. Happy that they’re 
>> on 
>> my Sam.
>>
>> Best,
>> Rich in ATL
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Sep 1, 2022 at 1:06 PM, J J  wrote:
>>
>>> Laing, thanks for the interesting bit about Waterford-built frames. 
>>> This is the first I hear. I never noticed the W as a deliberate W (as 
>>> opposed to being strictly an embellishment) on my Waterford 
>>> Hunqapillar, so 
>>> it was cool to see it for what it is. I had to check the other Rivs in 
>>> the 
>>> stable, all Toyo built, and of course none has the W.
>>>
>>> Thanks again!
>>>
>>> [image: Hunq Waterford seat stay end.jpeg]
>>> On Thursday, September 1, 2022 at 9:47:06 AM UTC-4 lconley wrote:
>>>
 Don't Waterford frames have a distinctive seat stay end cap with a 
 'W" in the recess - my Bombadil does. This is a better picture from 
 the 
 Waterford site, but the same as my Bombadil:

 [image: 
 6881680380_566caa3985_z-nwiouwjw51r3qwj11ieoc8axc7o69w290ux5x1it4w.jpg]

 Laing



 On Thursday, September 1, 2022 at 3:05:54 AM UTC-4 Joe Bernard 
 wrote:

> THAT'S it. I knew there was a difference between the two but 
> couldn't remember the detail change. But I think yours is backwards, 
> my 
> recollection is Toyo had two sets of bottle bosses and the later 
> Waterford 
> got the third set. 
>
> On Thursday, September 1, 2022 at 12:01:05 AM UTC-7 Hetchins52 
> wrote:
>
>> Not sure that it is totally definitive but I expect the Toyo AHH 
>> to have three water bottle boss pairs and the Waterford to have two 
>> pairs 
>> (none under the down tube).
>>
>> David Lipsky
>>
>> On Wednesday, August 31, 2022 at 7:11:42 PM UTC-7 James wrote:
>>
>>> I have an older AHH.  Anyone know how I can tell if it's Toyo or 
>>> Waterford made?
>>>
>>> On Wednesday, August 31, 2022 at 5:52:35 PM UTC-4 maxcr wrote:
>>>
 I had an older MUSA AHH 61 (2006-ish?) and a Taiwan Sam 62 
 (2015-ish) with 2TT and for a brief spell I also had a 2TT 58. All 
 of them 

Re: [RBW] Re: Differences between Sam Hillborne and A Homer Hilsen

[lconley]

I looked on Cyclofiend and where they were visible, the Atlantises all 
appeared to have the W. It may not be related to Waterford after all.

Laing

On Friday, September 2, 2022 at 10:48:29 AM UTC-4 Danny wrote:

> The early Atlantis brochures show the W on the seat stay cap with Toyo 
> being the only listed builder in the brochures. My Riv knowledge is not 
> very deep, so perhaps Waterford was building the Atlantis as well at that 
> time? or Riv was buying the seat stay caps from them?
>
> Atlantis 2001 brochure 
> 
> Atlantis 2002 brochure 
> 
>
> [image: Screen Shot 2022-09-02 at 9.15.04 AM Medium.jpeg]
> [image: Screen Shot 2022-09-02 at 9.36.37 AM Medium.jpeg]
>
> -Danny
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Fri, Sep 2, 2022 at 7:41 AM Bill Schairer  wrote:
>
>> In general, is one not able to tell from the serial number?
>>
>> Bill S
>> San Diego
>>
>> On Thursday, September 1, 2022 at 11:50:12 AM UTC-7 RichS wrote:
>>
>>> That is a first class detail. Don’t believe it was on my formerly owned 
>>> 2014 Waterford Atlantis so perhaps the W was featured on certain models? I 
>>> am fond of concave seat stay caps though. Happy that they’re on my Sam.
>>>
>>> Best,
>>> Rich in ATL
>>>
>>>
>>> On Thu, Sep 1, 2022 at 1:06 PM, J J  wrote:
>>>
 Laing, thanks for the interesting bit about Waterford-built frames. 
 This is the first I hear. I never noticed the W as a deliberate W (as 
 opposed to being strictly an embellishment) on my Waterford Hunqapillar, 
 so 
 it was cool to see it for what it is. I had to check the other Rivs in the 
 stable, all Toyo built, and of course none has the W.

 Thanks again!

 [image: Hunq Waterford seat stay end.jpeg]
 On Thursday, September 1, 2022 at 9:47:06 AM UTC-4 lconley wrote:

> Don't Waterford frames have a distinctive seat stay end cap with a 'W" 
> in the recess - my Bombadil does. This is a better picture from the 
> Waterford site, but the same as my Bombadil:
>
> [image: 
> 6881680380_566caa3985_z-nwiouwjw51r3qwj11ieoc8axc7o69w290ux5x1it4w.jpg]
>
> Laing
>
>
>
> On Thursday, September 1, 2022 at 3:05:54 AM UTC-4 Joe Bernard wrote:
>
>> THAT'S it. I knew there was a difference between the two but couldn't 
>> remember the detail change. But I think yours is backwards, my 
>> recollection 
>> is Toyo had two sets of bottle bosses and the later Waterford got the 
>> third 
>> set. 
>>
>> On Thursday, September 1, 2022 at 12:01:05 AM UTC-7 Hetchins52 wrote:
>>
>>> Not sure that it is totally definitive but I expect the Toyo AHH to 
>>> have three water bottle boss pairs and the Waterford to have two pairs 
>>> (none under the down tube).
>>>
>>> David Lipsky
>>>
>>> On Wednesday, August 31, 2022 at 7:11:42 PM UTC-7 James wrote:
>>>
 I have an older AHH.  Anyone know how I can tell if it's Toyo or 
 Waterford made?

 On Wednesday, August 31, 2022 at 5:52:35 PM UTC-4 maxcr wrote:

> I had an older MUSA AHH 61 (2006-ish?) and a Taiwan Sam 62 
> (2015-ish) with 2TT and for a brief spell I also had a 2TT 58. All of 
> them 
> were 700C. I should also say that they are all gone at this point, 
> nothing 
> wrong with them except my own unnecessary searching for the next 
> shiny 
> object.
>
> Both are amazing frames and can be set up very similarly - I think 
> your tires, racks and handlebars would probably determine the feel 
> and ride 
> more than the frame geo, tubing or anything else.
>
> Some details on the way mine were set up: both had front and rear 
> racks, sidepull brakes and short stems:
> AHH 700x38 + dropbars
> SH 62  700x44 + dropbars
> SH 58 700x42 + Albatross
>
> It has been said that the Sam is burlier or that the tubing on the 
> Homer is slightly lighter and the lugs are more elegant. To me, they 
> were 
> both equally capable, perhaps the 2TT Sam felt a tad stiffer 
> particularly 
> when loaded, but it certainly didn't feel slower. Also, at no point 
> did I 
> feel like my AHH couldn't carry as much as the Sam. 
>
> Are you trying to decide which one you'd buy? If so, I would 
> choose based on availability, color, badge, name, which one do you 
> find 
> more beautiful? Oh and sizing: which one fits you better? If you can 
> find a 
> frame where you fall in the middle of the suggested PBH range for 
> either 
> the Sam or the AHH I would choose that.
>
> Not sure if this helps, but I think 

Re: [RBW] Re: Differences between Sam Hillborne and A Homer Hilsen

[Bill Schairer]

In general, is one not able to tell from the serial number?

Bill S
San Diego

On Thursday, September 1, 2022 at 11:50:12 AM UTC-7 RichS wrote:

> That is a first class detail. Don’t believe it was on my formerly owned 
> 2014 Waterford Atlantis so perhaps the W was featured on certain models? I 
> am fond of concave seat stay caps though. Happy that they’re on my Sam.
>
> Best,
> Rich in ATL
>
>
> On Thu, Sep 1, 2022 at 1:06 PM, J J  wrote:
>
>> Laing, thanks for the interesting bit about Waterford-built frames. This 
>> is the first I hear. I never noticed the W as a deliberate W (as opposed to 
>> being strictly an embellishment) on my Waterford Hunqapillar, so it was 
>> cool to see it for what it is. I had to check the other Rivs in the stable, 
>> all Toyo built, and of course none has the W.
>>
>> Thanks again!
>>
>> [image: Hunq Waterford seat stay end.jpeg]
>> On Thursday, September 1, 2022 at 9:47:06 AM UTC-4 lconley wrote:
>>
>>> Don't Waterford frames have a distinctive seat stay end cap with a 'W" 
>>> in the recess - my Bombadil does. This is a better picture from the 
>>> Waterford site, but the same as my Bombadil:
>>>
>>> [image: 
>>> 6881680380_566caa3985_z-nwiouwjw51r3qwj11ieoc8axc7o69w290ux5x1it4w.jpg]
>>>
>>> Laing
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Thursday, September 1, 2022 at 3:05:54 AM UTC-4 Joe Bernard wrote:
>>>
 THAT'S it. I knew there was a difference between the two but couldn't 
 remember the detail change. But I think yours is backwards, my 
 recollection 
 is Toyo had two sets of bottle bosses and the later Waterford got the 
 third 
 set. 

 On Thursday, September 1, 2022 at 12:01:05 AM UTC-7 Hetchins52 wrote:

> Not sure that it is totally definitive but I expect the Toyo AHH to 
> have three water bottle boss pairs and the Waterford to have two pairs 
> (none under the down tube).
>
> David Lipsky
>
> On Wednesday, August 31, 2022 at 7:11:42 PM UTC-7 James wrote:
>
>> I have an older AHH.  Anyone know how I can tell if it's Toyo or 
>> Waterford made?
>>
>> On Wednesday, August 31, 2022 at 5:52:35 PM UTC-4 maxcr wrote:
>>
>>> I had an older MUSA AHH 61 (2006-ish?) and a Taiwan Sam 62 
>>> (2015-ish) with 2TT and for a brief spell I also had a 2TT 58. All of 
>>> them 
>>> were 700C. I should also say that they are all gone at this point, 
>>> nothing 
>>> wrong with them except my own unnecessary searching for the next shiny 
>>> object.
>>>
>>> Both are amazing frames and can be set up very similarly - I think 
>>> your tires, racks and handlebars would probably determine the feel and 
>>> ride 
>>> more than the frame geo, tubing or anything else.
>>>
>>> Some details on the way mine were set up: both had front and rear 
>>> racks, sidepull brakes and short stems:
>>> AHH 700x38 + dropbars
>>> SH 62  700x44 + dropbars
>>> SH 58 700x42 + Albatross
>>>
>>> It has been said that the Sam is burlier or that the tubing on the 
>>> Homer is slightly lighter and the lugs are more elegant. To me, they 
>>> were 
>>> both equally capable, perhaps the 2TT Sam felt a tad stiffer 
>>> particularly 
>>> when loaded, but it certainly didn't feel slower. Also, at no point did 
>>> I 
>>> feel like my AHH couldn't carry as much as the Sam. 
>>>
>>> Are you trying to decide which one you'd buy? If so, I would choose 
>>> based on availability, color, badge, name, which one do you find more 
>>> beautiful? Oh and sizing: which one fits you better? If you can find a 
>>> frame where you fall in the middle of the suggested PBH range for 
>>> either 
>>> the Sam or the AHH I would choose that.
>>>
>>> Not sure if this helps, but I think Grant said it best when he said 
>>> it was hard to tell one from the other when you were riding them.
>>>
>>> Best.
>>> Max
>>>
>>> On Wednesday, August 31, 2022 at 4:38:49 PM UTC-4 John Hawrylak 
>>> wrote:
>>>
 Dave Grossman

 What made your the Roadini a superior all around bike compared your 
 AHH-MUSA/MUJ  ???   Was the Roadini more lively, handle better, ride 
 better, or something else???   It seems the Roadini is more a pure 
 road 
 bike vs the all around nature of the AHH.Just curious.

 John Hawrylak
 Woodstown  NJ

 On Monday, August 29, 2022 at 10:25:19 PM UTC-4 Dave Grossman wrote:

> I have an older Homer (not sure if it is Waterford or Toyo but I'd 
> like to know actually) and having owned a Roadini I can say I find it 
> a 
> much superior all around bike.  I hadn't considered a Sam since I 
> have a 
> Hunq but I can do light touring and backpacking with my Homer if I 
> desire.  
> I rotate it in my commuter stable with the 

Re: [RBW] Re: Differences between Sam Hillborne and A Homer Hilsen

[Kainalu V. -Brooklyn NY]

No W, but a certifiably Wisconsonian Hillborne with a popped seatstay 
- https://photos.app.goo.gl/orPod6s3vNemzvU8A 
And after they had fixed it better than new! 
- https://photos.app.goo.gl/zB8f86DjVCG2GNNq8
All before I stupidly sold it...

shopping for a 71 Hilsen
-Kai

On Thursday, September 1, 2022 at 1:32:20 PM UTC-4 lconley wrote:

> I don't know that the lack of a W means that is is not a Waterford, 
> Waterford does have other end caps. But if you have the W, it is a 
> Waterford as far as i know.
>
> Laing
>
> On Thursday, September 1, 2022 at 1:06:24 PM UTC-4 J J wrote:
>
>> Laing, thanks for the interesting bit about Waterford-built frames. This 
>> is the first I hear. I never noticed the W as a deliberate W (as opposed to 
>> being strictly an embellishment) on my Waterford Hunqapillar, so it was 
>> cool to see it for what it is. I had to check the other Rivs in the stable, 
>> all Toyo built, and of course none has the W.
>>
>> Thanks again!
>>
>> [image: Hunq Waterford seat stay end.jpeg]
>> On Thursday, September 1, 2022 at 9:47:06 AM UTC-4 lconley wrote:
>>
>>> Don't Waterford frames have a distinctive seat stay end cap with a 'W" 
>>> in the recess - my Bombadil does. This is a better picture from the 
>>> Waterford site, but the same as my Bombadil:
>>>
>>> [image: 
>>> 6881680380_566caa3985_z-nwiouwjw51r3qwj11ieoc8axc7o69w290ux5x1it4w.jpg]
>>>
>>> Laing
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Thursday, September 1, 2022 at 3:05:54 AM UTC-4 Joe Bernard wrote:
>>>
 THAT'S it. I knew there was a difference between the two but couldn't 
 remember the detail change. But I think yours is backwards, my 
 recollection 
 is Toyo had two sets of bottle bosses and the later Waterford got the 
 third 
 set. 

 On Thursday, September 1, 2022 at 12:01:05 AM UTC-7 Hetchins52 wrote:

> Not sure that it is totally definitive but I expect the Toyo AHH to 
> have three water bottle boss pairs and the Waterford to have two pairs 
> (none under the down tube).
>
> David Lipsky
>
> On Wednesday, August 31, 2022 at 7:11:42 PM UTC-7 James wrote:
>
>> I have an older AHH.  Anyone know how I can tell if it's Toyo or 
>> Waterford made?
>>
>> On Wednesday, August 31, 2022 at 5:52:35 PM UTC-4 maxcr wrote:
>>
>>> I had an older MUSA AHH 61 (2006-ish?) and a Taiwan Sam 62 
>>> (2015-ish) with 2TT and for a brief spell I also had a 2TT 58. All of 
>>> them 
>>> were 700C. I should also say that they are all gone at this point, 
>>> nothing 
>>> wrong with them except my own unnecessary searching for the next shiny 
>>> object.
>>>
>>> Both are amazing frames and can be set up very similarly - I think 
>>> your tires, racks and handlebars would probably determine the feel and 
>>> ride 
>>> more than the frame geo, tubing or anything else.
>>>
>>> Some details on the way mine were set up: both had front and rear 
>>> racks, sidepull brakes and short stems:
>>> AHH 700x38 + dropbars
>>> SH 62  700x44 + dropbars
>>> SH 58 700x42 + Albatross
>>>
>>> It has been said that the Sam is burlier or that the tubing on the 
>>> Homer is slightly lighter and the lugs are more elegant. To me, they 
>>> were 
>>> both equally capable, perhaps the 2TT Sam felt a tad stiffer 
>>> particularly 
>>> when loaded, but it certainly didn't feel slower. Also, at no point did 
>>> I 
>>> feel like my AHH couldn't carry as much as the Sam. 
>>>
>>> Are you trying to decide which one you'd buy? If so, I would choose 
>>> based on availability, color, badge, name, which one do you find more 
>>> beautiful? Oh and sizing: which one fits you better? If you can find a 
>>> frame where you fall in the middle of the suggested PBH range for 
>>> either 
>>> the Sam or the AHH I would choose that.
>>>
>>> Not sure if this helps, but I think Grant said it best when he said 
>>> it was hard to tell one from the other when you were riding them.
>>>
>>> Best.
>>> Max
>>>
>>> On Wednesday, August 31, 2022 at 4:38:49 PM UTC-4 John Hawrylak 
>>> wrote:
>>>
 Dave Grossman

 What made your the Roadini a superior all around bike compared your 
 AHH-MUSA/MUJ  ???   Was the Roadini more lively, handle better, ride 
 better, or something else???   It seems the Roadini is more a pure 
 road 
 bike vs the all around nature of the AHH.Just curious.

 John Hawrylak
 Woodstown  NJ

 On Monday, August 29, 2022 at 10:25:19 PM UTC-4 Dave Grossman wrote:

> I have an older Homer (not sure if it is Waterford or Toyo but I'd 
> like to know actually) and having owned a Roadini I can say I find it 
> a 
> much superior all around bike.  I hadn't considered a Sam since I 
> have a 

Re: [RBW] Re: Differences between Sam Hillborne and A Homer Hilsen

[lconley]

I don't know that the lack of a W means that is is not a Waterford, 
Waterford does have other end caps. But if you have the W, it is a 
Waterford as far as i know.

Laing

On Thursday, September 1, 2022 at 1:06:24 PM UTC-4 J J wrote:

> Laing, thanks for the interesting bit about Waterford-built frames. This 
> is the first I hear. I never noticed the W as a deliberate W (as opposed to 
> being strictly an embellishment) on my Waterford Hunqapillar, so it was 
> cool to see it for what it is. I had to check the other Rivs in the stable, 
> all Toyo built, and of course none has the W.
>
> Thanks again!
>
> [image: Hunq Waterford seat stay end.jpeg]
> On Thursday, September 1, 2022 at 9:47:06 AM UTC-4 lconley wrote:
>
>> Don't Waterford frames have a distinctive seat stay end cap with a 'W" in 
>> the recess - my Bombadil does. This is a better picture from the Waterford 
>> site, but the same as my Bombadil:
>>
>> [image: 
>> 6881680380_566caa3985_z-nwiouwjw51r3qwj11ieoc8axc7o69w290ux5x1it4w.jpg]
>>
>> Laing
>>
>>
>>
>> On Thursday, September 1, 2022 at 3:05:54 AM UTC-4 Joe Bernard wrote:
>>
>>> THAT'S it. I knew there was a difference between the two but couldn't 
>>> remember the detail change. But I think yours is backwards, my recollection 
>>> is Toyo had two sets of bottle bosses and the later Waterford got the third 
>>> set. 
>>>
>>> On Thursday, September 1, 2022 at 12:01:05 AM UTC-7 Hetchins52 wrote:
>>>
 Not sure that it is totally definitive but I expect the Toyo AHH to 
 have three water bottle boss pairs and the Waterford to have two pairs 
 (none under the down tube).

 David Lipsky

 On Wednesday, August 31, 2022 at 7:11:42 PM UTC-7 James wrote:

> I have an older AHH.  Anyone know how I can tell if it's Toyo or 
> Waterford made?
>
> On Wednesday, August 31, 2022 at 5:52:35 PM UTC-4 maxcr wrote:
>
>> I had an older MUSA AHH 61 (2006-ish?) and a Taiwan Sam 62 (2015-ish) 
>> with 2TT and for a brief spell I also had a 2TT 58. All of them were 
>> 700C. 
>> I should also say that they are all gone at this point, nothing wrong 
>> with 
>> them except my own unnecessary searching for the next shiny object.
>>
>> Both are amazing frames and can be set up very similarly - I think 
>> your tires, racks and handlebars would probably determine the feel and 
>> ride 
>> more than the frame geo, tubing or anything else.
>>
>> Some details on the way mine were set up: both had front and rear 
>> racks, sidepull brakes and short stems:
>> AHH 700x38 + dropbars
>> SH 62  700x44 + dropbars
>> SH 58 700x42 + Albatross
>>
>> It has been said that the Sam is burlier or that the tubing on the 
>> Homer is slightly lighter and the lugs are more elegant. To me, they 
>> were 
>> both equally capable, perhaps the 2TT Sam felt a tad stiffer 
>> particularly 
>> when loaded, but it certainly didn't feel slower. Also, at no point did 
>> I 
>> feel like my AHH couldn't carry as much as the Sam. 
>>
>> Are you trying to decide which one you'd buy? If so, I would choose 
>> based on availability, color, badge, name, which one do you find more 
>> beautiful? Oh and sizing: which one fits you better? If you can find a 
>> frame where you fall in the middle of the suggested PBH range for either 
>> the Sam or the AHH I would choose that.
>>
>> Not sure if this helps, but I think Grant said it best when he said 
>> it was hard to tell one from the other when you were riding them.
>>
>> Best.
>> Max
>>
>> On Wednesday, August 31, 2022 at 4:38:49 PM UTC-4 John Hawrylak wrote:
>>
>>> Dave Grossman
>>>
>>> What made your the Roadini a superior all around bike compared your 
>>> AHH-MUSA/MUJ  ???   Was the Roadini more lively, handle better, ride 
>>> better, or something else???   It seems the Roadini is more a pure road 
>>> bike vs the all around nature of the AHH.Just curious.
>>>
>>> John Hawrylak
>>> Woodstown  NJ
>>>
>>> On Monday, August 29, 2022 at 10:25:19 PM UTC-4 Dave Grossman wrote:
>>>
 I have an older Homer (not sure if it is Waterford or Toyo but I'd 
 like to know actually) and having owned a Roadini I can say I find it 
 a 
 much superior all around bike.  I hadn't considered a Sam since I have 
 a 
 Hunq but I can do light touring and backpacking with my Homer if I 
 desire.  
 I rotate it in my commuter stable with the Hunq and I end up riding it 
 quite often.  I currently have it set up with Crust Towel bars (with a 
 large Fabs in the middle!), VO fenders, and 44s.  I have it maxed out, 
 but 
 it is such a great ride.  I've thought about getting a stripped road 
 bike 
 but the Homer is so versatile.  I think if I didn't have 

Re: [RBW] Re: Differences between Sam Hillborne and A Homer Hilsen

[James Copp]

That settles it Max! Thanks

On Thu, Sep 1, 2022 at 10:56 AM maxcr  wrote:

> James, if you bought that bike from me (the 63 AHH) it's a Toyo
> Max
>
> On Thursday, September 1, 2022 at 9:47:06 AM UTC-4 lconley wrote:
>
>> Don't Waterford frames have a distinctive seat stay end cap with a 'W" in
>> the recess - my Bombadil does. This is a better picture from the Waterford
>> site, but the same as my Bombadil:
>>
>> [image:
>> 6881680380_566caa3985_z-nwiouwjw51r3qwj11ieoc8axc7o69w290ux5x1it4w.jpg]
>>
>> Laing
>>
>>
>>
>> On Thursday, September 1, 2022 at 3:05:54 AM UTC-4 Joe Bernard wrote:
>>
>>> THAT'S it. I knew there was a difference between the two but couldn't
>>> remember the detail change. But I think yours is backwards, my recollection
>>> is Toyo had two sets of bottle bosses and the later Waterford got the third
>>> set.
>>>
>>> On Thursday, September 1, 2022 at 12:01:05 AM UTC-7 Hetchins52 wrote:
>>>
 Not sure that it is totally definitive but I expect the Toyo AHH to
 have three water bottle boss pairs and the Waterford to have two pairs
 (none under the down tube).

 David Lipsky

 On Wednesday, August 31, 2022 at 7:11:42 PM UTC-7 James wrote:

> I have an older AHH.  Anyone know how I can tell if it's Toyo or
> Waterford made?
>
> On Wednesday, August 31, 2022 at 5:52:35 PM UTC-4 maxcr wrote:
>
>> I had an older MUSA AHH 61 (2006-ish?) and a Taiwan Sam 62 (2015-ish)
>> with 2TT and for a brief spell I also had a 2TT 58. All of them were 
>> 700C.
>> I should also say that they are all gone at this point, nothing wrong 
>> with
>> them except my own unnecessary searching for the next shiny object.
>>
>> Both are amazing frames and can be set up very similarly - I think
>> your tires, racks and handlebars would probably determine the feel and 
>> ride
>> more than the frame geo, tubing or anything else.
>>
>> Some details on the way mine were set up: both had front and rear
>> racks, sidepull brakes and short stems:
>> AHH 700x38 + dropbars
>> SH 62  700x44 + dropbars
>> SH 58 700x42 + Albatross
>>
>> It has been said that the Sam is burlier or that the tubing on the
>> Homer is slightly lighter and the lugs are more elegant. To me, they were
>> both equally capable, perhaps the 2TT Sam felt a tad stiffer particularly
>> when loaded, but it certainly didn't feel slower. Also, at no point did I
>> feel like my AHH couldn't carry as much as the Sam.
>>
>> Are you trying to decide which one you'd buy? If so, I would choose
>> based on availability, color, badge, name, which one do you find more
>> beautiful? Oh and sizing: which one fits you better? If you can find a
>> frame where you fall in the middle of the suggested PBH range for either
>> the Sam or the AHH I would choose that.
>>
>> Not sure if this helps, but I think Grant said it best when he said
>> it was hard to tell one from the other when you were riding them.
>>
>> Best.
>> Max
>>
>> On Wednesday, August 31, 2022 at 4:38:49 PM UTC-4 John Hawrylak wrote:
>>
>>> Dave Grossman
>>>
>>> What made your the Roadini a superior all around bike compared your
>>> AHH-MUSA/MUJ  ???   Was the Roadini more lively, handle better, ride
>>> better, or something else???   It seems the Roadini is more a pure road
>>> bike vs the all around nature of the AHH.Just curious.
>>>
>>> John Hawrylak
>>> Woodstown  NJ
>>>
>>> On Monday, August 29, 2022 at 10:25:19 PM UTC-4 Dave Grossman wrote:
>>>
 I have an older Homer (not sure if it is Waterford or Toyo but I'd
 like to know actually) and having owned a Roadini I can say I find it a
 much superior all around bike.  I hadn't considered a Sam since I have 
 a
 Hunq but I can do light touring and backpacking with my Homer if I 
 desire.
 I rotate it in my commuter stable with the Hunq and I end up riding it
 quite often.  I currently have it set up with Crust Towel bars (with a
 large Fabs in the middle!), VO fenders, and 44s.  I have it maxed out, 
 but
 it is such a great ride.  I've thought about getting a stripped road 
 bike
 but the Homer is so versatile.  I think if I didn't have the Hunq, I'd 
 be
 more inclined to get a Sam.  But if you already have a hauler an older
 Homer is the way to go.  I have a 63, which I am on the small side for 
 with
 a 90 pbh, but it fits great and I love the ride.  My Hunq is a 58 and 
 while
 I can clear a 62 (I've ridden the 62 before) I love having the 
 clearance
 that a slightly smaller frame allows for the rough stuff.

 On Monday, August 29, 2022 at 4:27:16 PM UTC-5 ttoshi wrote:

> Just to be more confusing, 

Re: [RBW] Re: Differences between Sam Hillborne and A Homer Hilsen

[maxcr]

James, if you bought that bike from me (the 63 AHH) it's a Toyo
Max

On Thursday, September 1, 2022 at 9:47:06 AM UTC-4 lconley wrote:

> Don't Waterford frames have a distinctive seat stay end cap with a 'W" in 
> the recess - my Bombadil does. This is a better picture from the Waterford 
> site, but the same as my Bombadil:
>
> [image: 
> 6881680380_566caa3985_z-nwiouwjw51r3qwj11ieoc8axc7o69w290ux5x1it4w.jpg]
>
> Laing
>
>
>
> On Thursday, September 1, 2022 at 3:05:54 AM UTC-4 Joe Bernard wrote:
>
>> THAT'S it. I knew there was a difference between the two but couldn't 
>> remember the detail change. But I think yours is backwards, my recollection 
>> is Toyo had two sets of bottle bosses and the later Waterford got the third 
>> set. 
>>
>> On Thursday, September 1, 2022 at 12:01:05 AM UTC-7 Hetchins52 wrote:
>>
>>> Not sure that it is totally definitive but I expect the Toyo AHH to have 
>>> three water bottle boss pairs and the Waterford to have two pairs (none 
>>> under the down tube).
>>>
>>> David Lipsky
>>>
>>> On Wednesday, August 31, 2022 at 7:11:42 PM UTC-7 James wrote:
>>>
 I have an older AHH.  Anyone know how I can tell if it's Toyo or 
 Waterford made?

 On Wednesday, August 31, 2022 at 5:52:35 PM UTC-4 maxcr wrote:

> I had an older MUSA AHH 61 (2006-ish?) and a Taiwan Sam 62 (2015-ish) 
> with 2TT and for a brief spell I also had a 2TT 58. All of them were 
> 700C. 
> I should also say that they are all gone at this point, nothing wrong 
> with 
> them except my own unnecessary searching for the next shiny object.
>
> Both are amazing frames and can be set up very similarly - I think 
> your tires, racks and handlebars would probably determine the feel and 
> ride 
> more than the frame geo, tubing or anything else.
>
> Some details on the way mine were set up: both had front and rear 
> racks, sidepull brakes and short stems:
> AHH 700x38 + dropbars
> SH 62  700x44 + dropbars
> SH 58 700x42 + Albatross
>
> It has been said that the Sam is burlier or that the tubing on the 
> Homer is slightly lighter and the lugs are more elegant. To me, they were 
> both equally capable, perhaps the 2TT Sam felt a tad stiffer particularly 
> when loaded, but it certainly didn't feel slower. Also, at no point did I 
> feel like my AHH couldn't carry as much as the Sam. 
>
> Are you trying to decide which one you'd buy? If so, I would choose 
> based on availability, color, badge, name, which one do you find more 
> beautiful? Oh and sizing: which one fits you better? If you can find a 
> frame where you fall in the middle of the suggested PBH range for either 
> the Sam or the AHH I would choose that.
>
> Not sure if this helps, but I think Grant said it best when he said it 
> was hard to tell one from the other when you were riding them.
>
> Best.
> Max
>
> On Wednesday, August 31, 2022 at 4:38:49 PM UTC-4 John Hawrylak wrote:
>
>> Dave Grossman
>>
>> What made your the Roadini a superior all around bike compared your 
>> AHH-MUSA/MUJ  ???   Was the Roadini more lively, handle better, ride 
>> better, or something else???   It seems the Roadini is more a pure road 
>> bike vs the all around nature of the AHH.Just curious.
>>
>> John Hawrylak
>> Woodstown  NJ
>>
>> On Monday, August 29, 2022 at 10:25:19 PM UTC-4 Dave Grossman wrote:
>>
>>> I have an older Homer (not sure if it is Waterford or Toyo but I'd 
>>> like to know actually) and having owned a Roadini I can say I find it a 
>>> much superior all around bike.  I hadn't considered a Sam since I have 
>>> a 
>>> Hunq but I can do light touring and backpacking with my Homer if I 
>>> desire.  
>>> I rotate it in my commuter stable with the Hunq and I end up riding it 
>>> quite often.  I currently have it set up with Crust Towel bars (with a 
>>> large Fabs in the middle!), VO fenders, and 44s.  I have it maxed out, 
>>> but 
>>> it is such a great ride.  I've thought about getting a stripped road 
>>> bike 
>>> but the Homer is so versatile.  I think if I didn't have the Hunq, I'd 
>>> be 
>>> more inclined to get a Sam.  But if you already have a hauler an older 
>>> Homer is the way to go.  I have a 63, which I am on the small side for 
>>> with 
>>> a 90 pbh, but it fits great and I love the ride.  My Hunq is a 58 and 
>>> while 
>>> I can clear a 62 (I've ridden the 62 before) I love having the 
>>> clearance 
>>> that a slightly smaller frame allows for the rough stuff.  
>>>
>>> On Monday, August 29, 2022 at 4:27:16 PM UTC-5 ttoshi wrote:
>>>
 Just to be more confusing, I have a circa 2012 Homer, and I believe 
 the even sizes are 650b and the odd sizes are 700c, so there was some 
 overlap within 

Re: [RBW] Re: Differences between Sam Hillborne and A Homer Hilsen

[Joe Bernard]

THAT'S it. I knew there was a difference between the two but couldn't 
remember the detail change. But I think yours is backwards, my recollection 
is Toyo had two sets of bottle bosses and the later Waterford got the third 
set. 

On Thursday, September 1, 2022 at 12:01:05 AM UTC-7 Hetchins52 wrote:

> Not sure that it is totally definitive but I expect the Toyo AHH to have 
> three water bottle boss pairs and the Waterford to have two pairs (none 
> under the down tube).
>
> David Lipsky
>
> On Wednesday, August 31, 2022 at 7:11:42 PM UTC-7 James wrote:
>
>> I have an older AHH.  Anyone know how I can tell if it's Toyo or 
>> Waterford made?
>>
>> On Wednesday, August 31, 2022 at 5:52:35 PM UTC-4 maxcr wrote:
>>
>>> I had an older MUSA AHH 61 (2006-ish?) and a Taiwan Sam 62 (2015-ish) 
>>> with 2TT and for a brief spell I also had a 2TT 58. All of them were 700C. 
>>> I should also say that they are all gone at this point, nothing wrong with 
>>> them except my own unnecessary searching for the next shiny object.
>>>
>>> Both are amazing frames and can be set up very similarly - I think your 
>>> tires, racks and handlebars would probably determine the feel and ride more 
>>> than the frame geo, tubing or anything else.
>>>
>>> Some details on the way mine were set up: both had front and rear racks, 
>>> sidepull brakes and short stems:
>>> AHH 700x38 + dropbars
>>> SH 62  700x44 + dropbars
>>> SH 58 700x42 + Albatross
>>>
>>> It has been said that the Sam is burlier or that the tubing on the Homer 
>>> is slightly lighter and the lugs are more elegant. To me, they were both 
>>> equally capable, perhaps the 2TT Sam felt a tad stiffer particularly when 
>>> loaded, but it certainly didn't feel slower. Also, at no point did I feel 
>>> like my AHH couldn't carry as much as the Sam. 
>>>
>>> Are you trying to decide which one you'd buy? If so, I would choose 
>>> based on availability, color, badge, name, which one do you find more 
>>> beautiful? Oh and sizing: which one fits you better? If you can find a 
>>> frame where you fall in the middle of the suggested PBH range for either 
>>> the Sam or the AHH I would choose that.
>>>
>>> Not sure if this helps, but I think Grant said it best when he said it 
>>> was hard to tell one from the other when you were riding them.
>>>
>>> Best.
>>> Max
>>>
>>> On Wednesday, August 31, 2022 at 4:38:49 PM UTC-4 John Hawrylak wrote:
>>>
 Dave Grossman

 What made your the Roadini a superior all around bike compared your 
 AHH-MUSA/MUJ  ???   Was the Roadini more lively, handle better, ride 
 better, or something else???   It seems the Roadini is more a pure road 
 bike vs the all around nature of the AHH.Just curious.

 John Hawrylak
 Woodstown  NJ

 On Monday, August 29, 2022 at 10:25:19 PM UTC-4 Dave Grossman wrote:

> I have an older Homer (not sure if it is Waterford or Toyo but I'd 
> like to know actually) and having owned a Roadini I can say I find it a 
> much superior all around bike.  I hadn't considered a Sam since I have a 
> Hunq but I can do light touring and backpacking with my Homer if I 
> desire.  
> I rotate it in my commuter stable with the Hunq and I end up riding it 
> quite often.  I currently have it set up with Crust Towel bars (with a 
> large Fabs in the middle!), VO fenders, and 44s.  I have it maxed out, 
> but 
> it is such a great ride.  I've thought about getting a stripped road bike 
> but the Homer is so versatile.  I think if I didn't have the Hunq, I'd be 
> more inclined to get a Sam.  But if you already have a hauler an older 
> Homer is the way to go.  I have a 63, which I am on the small side for 
> with 
> a 90 pbh, but it fits great and I love the ride.  My Hunq is a 58 and 
> while 
> I can clear a 62 (I've ridden the 62 before) I love having the clearance 
> that a slightly smaller frame allows for the rough stuff.  
>
> On Monday, August 29, 2022 at 4:27:16 PM UTC-5 ttoshi wrote:
>
>> Just to be more confusing, I have a circa 2012 Homer, and I believe 
>> the even sizes are 650b and the odd sizes are 700c, so there was some 
>> overlap within some of the sizes.  I have a 54 cm AHH 650b, and I 
>> believe 
>> the 55 cm and 57 cm were 700c, while the 56 cm was 650b.  
>>
>> My Homer maxed out at 38 mm tires + fenders--I've used Parimoto, 
>> Lierre, GravelKing, and Soma Xpress, and all are good for me (depending 
>> upon the application, eg. commute vs fast ride).  My favorite tire size 
>> for 
>> 650b is 42 mm, and I believe the Sam H can ride those with fenders, so I 
>> might lean that direction if I had to choose.  
>>
>> Toshi
>>
>>
>>
>>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Differences between Sam Hillborne and A Homer Hilsen

['Hetchins52' via RBW Owners Bunch]

Not sure that it is totally definitive but I expect the Toyo AHH to have 
three water bottle boss pairs and the Waterford to have two pairs (none 
under the down tube).

David Lipsky

On Wednesday, August 31, 2022 at 7:11:42 PM UTC-7 James wrote:

> I have an older AHH.  Anyone know how I can tell if it's Toyo or Waterford 
> made?
>
> On Wednesday, August 31, 2022 at 5:52:35 PM UTC-4 maxcr wrote:
>
>> I had an older MUSA AHH 61 (2006-ish?) and a Taiwan Sam 62 (2015-ish) 
>> with 2TT and for a brief spell I also had a 2TT 58. All of them were 700C. 
>> I should also say that they are all gone at this point, nothing wrong with 
>> them except my own unnecessary searching for the next shiny object.
>>
>> Both are amazing frames and can be set up very similarly - I think your 
>> tires, racks and handlebars would probably determine the feel and ride more 
>> than the frame geo, tubing or anything else.
>>
>> Some details on the way mine were set up: both had front and rear racks, 
>> sidepull brakes and short stems:
>> AHH 700x38 + dropbars
>> SH 62  700x44 + dropbars
>> SH 58 700x42 + Albatross
>>
>> It has been said that the Sam is burlier or that the tubing on the Homer 
>> is slightly lighter and the lugs are more elegant. To me, they were both 
>> equally capable, perhaps the 2TT Sam felt a tad stiffer particularly when 
>> loaded, but it certainly didn't feel slower. Also, at no point did I feel 
>> like my AHH couldn't carry as much as the Sam. 
>>
>> Are you trying to decide which one you'd buy? If so, I would choose based 
>> on availability, color, badge, name, which one do you find more beautiful? 
>> Oh and sizing: which one fits you better? If you can find a frame where you 
>> fall in the middle of the suggested PBH range for either the Sam or the AHH 
>> I would choose that.
>>
>> Not sure if this helps, but I think Grant said it best when he said it 
>> was hard to tell one from the other when you were riding them.
>>
>> Best.
>> Max
>>
>> On Wednesday, August 31, 2022 at 4:38:49 PM UTC-4 John Hawrylak wrote:
>>
>>> Dave Grossman
>>>
>>> What made your the Roadini a superior all around bike compared your 
>>> AHH-MUSA/MUJ  ???   Was the Roadini more lively, handle better, ride 
>>> better, or something else???   It seems the Roadini is more a pure road 
>>> bike vs the all around nature of the AHH.Just curious.
>>>
>>> John Hawrylak
>>> Woodstown  NJ
>>>
>>> On Monday, August 29, 2022 at 10:25:19 PM UTC-4 Dave Grossman wrote:
>>>
 I have an older Homer (not sure if it is Waterford or Toyo but I'd like 
 to know actually) and having owned a Roadini I can say I find it a much 
 superior all around bike.  I hadn't considered a Sam since I have a Hunq 
 but I can do light touring and backpacking with my Homer if I desire.  I 
 rotate it in my commuter stable with the Hunq and I end up riding it quite 
 often.  I currently have it set up with Crust Towel bars (with a large 
 Fabs 
 in the middle!), VO fenders, and 44s.  I have it maxed out, but it is such 
 a great ride.  I've thought about getting a stripped road bike but the 
 Homer is so versatile.  I think if I didn't have the Hunq, I'd be more 
 inclined to get a Sam.  But if you already have a hauler an older Homer is 
 the way to go.  I have a 63, which I am on the small side for with a 90 
 pbh, but it fits great and I love the ride.  My Hunq is a 58 and while I 
 can clear a 62 (I've ridden the 62 before) I love having the clearance 
 that 
 a slightly smaller frame allows for the rough stuff.  

 On Monday, August 29, 2022 at 4:27:16 PM UTC-5 ttoshi wrote:

> Just to be more confusing, I have a circa 2012 Homer, and I believe 
> the even sizes are 650b and the odd sizes are 700c, so there was some 
> overlap within some of the sizes.  I have a 54 cm AHH 650b, and I believe 
> the 55 cm and 57 cm were 700c, while the 56 cm was 650b.  
>
> My Homer maxed out at 38 mm tires + fenders--I've used Parimoto, 
> Lierre, GravelKing, and Soma Xpress, and all are good for me (depending 
> upon the application, eg. commute vs fast ride).  My favorite tire size 
> for 
> 650b is 42 mm, and I believe the Sam H can ride those with fenders, so I 
> might lean that direction if I had to choose.  
>
> Toshi
>
>
>
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Differences between Sam Hillborne and A Homer Hilsen

[James]

I have an older AHH.  Anyone know how I can tell if it's Toyo or Waterford 
made?

On Wednesday, August 31, 2022 at 5:52:35 PM UTC-4 maxcr wrote:

> I had an older MUSA AHH 61 (2006-ish?) and a Taiwan Sam 62 (2015-ish) with 
> 2TT and for a brief spell I also had a 2TT 58. All of them were 700C. I 
> should also say that they are all gone at this point, nothing wrong with 
> them except my own unnecessary searching for the next shiny object.
>
> Both are amazing frames and can be set up very similarly - I think your 
> tires, racks and handlebars would probably determine the feel and ride more 
> than the frame geo, tubing or anything else.
>
> Some details on the way mine were set up: both had front and rear racks, 
> sidepull brakes and short stems:
> AHH 700x38 + dropbars
> SH 62  700x44 + dropbars
> SH 58 700x42 + Albatross
>
> It has been said that the Sam is burlier or that the tubing on the Homer 
> is slightly lighter and the lugs are more elegant. To me, they were both 
> equally capable, perhaps the 2TT Sam felt a tad stiffer particularly when 
> loaded, but it certainly didn't feel slower. Also, at no point did I feel 
> like my AHH couldn't carry as much as the Sam. 
>
> Are you trying to decide which one you'd buy? If so, I would choose based 
> on availability, color, badge, name, which one do you find more beautiful? 
> Oh and sizing: which one fits you better? If you can find a frame where you 
> fall in the middle of the suggested PBH range for either the Sam or the AHH 
> I would choose that.
>
> Not sure if this helps, but I think Grant said it best when he said it was 
> hard to tell one from the other when you were riding them.
>
> Best.
> Max
>
> On Wednesday, August 31, 2022 at 4:38:49 PM UTC-4 John Hawrylak wrote:
>
>> Dave Grossman
>>
>> What made your the Roadini a superior all around bike compared your 
>> AHH-MUSA/MUJ  ???   Was the Roadini more lively, handle better, ride 
>> better, or something else???   It seems the Roadini is more a pure road 
>> bike vs the all around nature of the AHH.Just curious.
>>
>> John Hawrylak
>> Woodstown  NJ
>>
>> On Monday, August 29, 2022 at 10:25:19 PM UTC-4 Dave Grossman wrote:
>>
>>> I have an older Homer (not sure if it is Waterford or Toyo but I'd like 
>>> to know actually) and having owned a Roadini I can say I find it a much 
>>> superior all around bike.  I hadn't considered a Sam since I have a Hunq 
>>> but I can do light touring and backpacking with my Homer if I desire.  I 
>>> rotate it in my commuter stable with the Hunq and I end up riding it quite 
>>> often.  I currently have it set up with Crust Towel bars (with a large Fabs 
>>> in the middle!), VO fenders, and 44s.  I have it maxed out, but it is such 
>>> a great ride.  I've thought about getting a stripped road bike but the 
>>> Homer is so versatile.  I think if I didn't have the Hunq, I'd be more 
>>> inclined to get a Sam.  But if you already have a hauler an older Homer is 
>>> the way to go.  I have a 63, which I am on the small side for with a 90 
>>> pbh, but it fits great and I love the ride.  My Hunq is a 58 and while I 
>>> can clear a 62 (I've ridden the 62 before) I love having the clearance that 
>>> a slightly smaller frame allows for the rough stuff.  
>>>
>>> On Monday, August 29, 2022 at 4:27:16 PM UTC-5 ttoshi wrote:
>>>
 Just to be more confusing, I have a circa 2012 Homer, and I believe the 
 even sizes are 650b and the odd sizes are 700c, so there was some overlap 
 within some of the sizes.  I have a 54 cm AHH 650b, and I believe the 55 
 cm 
 and 57 cm were 700c, while the 56 cm was 650b.  

 My Homer maxed out at 38 mm tires + fenders--I've used Parimoto, 
 Lierre, GravelKing, and Soma Xpress, and all are good for me (depending 
 upon the application, eg. commute vs fast ride).  My favorite tire size 
 for 
 650b is 42 mm, and I believe the Sam H can ride those with fenders, so I 
 might lean that direction if I had to choose.  

 Toshi





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Re: [RBW] Re: Differences between Sam Hillborne and A Homer Hilsen

[maxcr]

I had an older MUSA AHH 61 (2006-ish?) and a Taiwan Sam 62 (2015-ish) with 
2TT and for a brief spell I also had a 2TT 58. All of them were 700C. I 
should also say that they are all gone at this point, nothing wrong with 
them except my own unnecessary searching for the next shiny object.

Both are amazing frames and can be set up very similarly - I think your 
tires, racks and handlebars would probably determine the feel and ride more 
than the frame geo, tubing or anything else.

Some details on the way mine were set up: both had front and rear racks, 
sidepull brakes and short stems:
AHH 700x38 + dropbars
SH 62  700x44 + dropbars
SH 58 700x42 + Albatross

It has been said that the Sam is burlier or that the tubing on the Homer is 
slightly lighter and the lugs are more elegant. To me, they were both 
equally capable, perhaps the 2TT Sam felt a tad stiffer particularly when 
loaded, but it certainly didn't feel slower. Also, at no point did I feel 
like my AHH couldn't carry as much as the Sam. 

Are you trying to decide which one you'd buy? If so, I would choose based 
on availability, color, badge, name, which one do you find more beautiful? 
Oh and sizing: which one fits you better? If you can find a frame where you 
fall in the middle of the suggested PBH range for either the Sam or the AHH 
I would choose that.

Not sure if this helps, but I think Grant said it best when he said it was 
hard to tell one from the other when you were riding them.

Best.
Max

On Wednesday, August 31, 2022 at 4:38:49 PM UTC-4 John Hawrylak wrote:

> Dave Grossman
>
> What made your the Roadini a superior all around bike compared your 
> AHH-MUSA/MUJ  ???   Was the Roadini more lively, handle better, ride 
> better, or something else???   It seems the Roadini is more a pure road 
> bike vs the all around nature of the AHH.Just curious.
>
> John Hawrylak
> Woodstown  NJ
>
> On Monday, August 29, 2022 at 10:25:19 PM UTC-4 Dave Grossman wrote:
>
>> I have an older Homer (not sure if it is Waterford or Toyo but I'd like 
>> to know actually) and having owned a Roadini I can say I find it a much 
>> superior all around bike.  I hadn't considered a Sam since I have a Hunq 
>> but I can do light touring and backpacking with my Homer if I desire.  I 
>> rotate it in my commuter stable with the Hunq and I end up riding it quite 
>> often.  I currently have it set up with Crust Towel bars (with a large Fabs 
>> in the middle!), VO fenders, and 44s.  I have it maxed out, but it is such 
>> a great ride.  I've thought about getting a stripped road bike but the 
>> Homer is so versatile.  I think if I didn't have the Hunq, I'd be more 
>> inclined to get a Sam.  But if you already have a hauler an older Homer is 
>> the way to go.  I have a 63, which I am on the small side for with a 90 
>> pbh, but it fits great and I love the ride.  My Hunq is a 58 and while I 
>> can clear a 62 (I've ridden the 62 before) I love having the clearance that 
>> a slightly smaller frame allows for the rough stuff.  
>>
>> On Monday, August 29, 2022 at 4:27:16 PM UTC-5 ttoshi wrote:
>>
>>> Just to be more confusing, I have a circa 2012 Homer, and I believe the 
>>> even sizes are 650b and the odd sizes are 700c, so there was some overlap 
>>> within some of the sizes.  I have a 54 cm AHH 650b, and I believe the 55 cm 
>>> and 57 cm were 700c, while the 56 cm was 650b.  
>>>
>>> My Homer maxed out at 38 mm tires + fenders--I've used Parimoto, Lierre, 
>>> GravelKing, and Soma Xpress, and all are good for me (depending upon the 
>>> application, eg. commute vs fast ride).  My favorite tire size for 650b is 
>>> 42 mm, and I believe the Sam H can ride those with fenders, so I might lean 
>>> that direction if I had to choose.  
>>>
>>> Toshi
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Differences between Sam Hillborne and A Homer Hilsen

['John Hawrylak' via RBW Owners Bunch]

Dave Grossman

What made your the Roadini a superior all around bike compared your 
AHH-MUSA/MUJ  ???   Was the Roadini more lively, handle better, ride 
better, or something else???   It seems the Roadini is more a pure road 
bike vs the all around nature of the AHH.Just curious.

John Hawrylak
Woodstown  NJ

On Monday, August 29, 2022 at 10:25:19 PM UTC-4 Dave Grossman wrote:

> I have an older Homer (not sure if it is Waterford or Toyo but I'd like to 
> know actually) and having owned a Roadini I can say I find it a much 
> superior all around bike.  I hadn't considered a Sam since I have a Hunq 
> but I can do light touring and backpacking with my Homer if I desire.  I 
> rotate it in my commuter stable with the Hunq and I end up riding it quite 
> often.  I currently have it set up with Crust Towel bars (with a large Fabs 
> in the middle!), VO fenders, and 44s.  I have it maxed out, but it is such 
> a great ride.  I've thought about getting a stripped road bike but the 
> Homer is so versatile.  I think if I didn't have the Hunq, I'd be more 
> inclined to get a Sam.  But if you already have a hauler an older Homer is 
> the way to go.  I have a 63, which I am on the small side for with a 90 
> pbh, but it fits great and I love the ride.  My Hunq is a 58 and while I 
> can clear a 62 (I've ridden the 62 before) I love having the clearance that 
> a slightly smaller frame allows for the rough stuff.  
>
> On Monday, August 29, 2022 at 4:27:16 PM UTC-5 ttoshi wrote:
>
>> Just to be more confusing, I have a circa 2012 Homer, and I believe the 
>> even sizes are 650b and the odd sizes are 700c, so there was some overlap 
>> within some of the sizes.  I have a 54 cm AHH 650b, and I believe the 55 cm 
>> and 57 cm were 700c, while the 56 cm was 650b.  
>>
>> My Homer maxed out at 38 mm tires + fenders--I've used Parimoto, Lierre, 
>> GravelKing, and Soma Xpress, and all are good for me (depending upon the 
>> application, eg. commute vs fast ride).  My favorite tire size for 650b is 
>> 42 mm, and I believe the Sam H can ride those with fenders, so I might lean 
>> that direction if I had to choose.  
>>
>> Toshi
>>
>>
>>
>>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Differences between Sam Hillborne and A Homer Hilsen

[Dave C]

Maybe somebody is ready to sell an older Homer and just needs a nudge. 

On Monday, August 29, 2022 at 7:25:19 PM UTC-7 Dave Grossman wrote:

> I have an older Homer (not sure if it is Waterford or Toyo but I'd like to 
> know actually) and having owned a Roadini I can say I find it a much 
> superior all around bike.  I hadn't considered a Sam since I have a Hunq 
> but I can do light touring and backpacking with my Homer if I desire.  I 
> rotate it in my commuter stable with the Hunq and I end up riding it quite 
> often.  I currently have it set up with Crust Towel bars (with a large Fabs 
> in the middle!), VO fenders, and 44s.  I have it maxed out, but it is such 
> a great ride.  I've thought about getting a stripped road bike but the 
> Homer is so versatile.  I think if I didn't have the Hunq, I'd be more 
> inclined to get a Sam.  But if you already have a hauler an older Homer is 
> the way to go.  I have a 63, which I am on the small side for with a 90 
> pbh, but it fits great and I love the ride.  My Hunq is a 58 and while I 
> can clear a 62 (I've ridden the 62 before) I love having the clearance that 
> a slightly smaller frame allows for the rough stuff.  
>
> On Monday, August 29, 2022 at 4:27:16 PM UTC-5 ttoshi wrote:
>
>> Just to be more confusing, I have a circa 2012 Homer, and I believe the 
>> even sizes are 650b and the odd sizes are 700c, so there was some overlap 
>> within some of the sizes.  I have a 54 cm AHH 650b, and I believe the 55 cm 
>> and 57 cm were 700c, while the 56 cm was 650b.  
>>
>> My Homer maxed out at 38 mm tires + fenders--I've used Parimoto, Lierre, 
>> GravelKing, and Soma Xpress, and all are good for me (depending upon the 
>> application, eg. commute vs fast ride).  My favorite tire size for 650b is 
>> 42 mm, and I believe the Sam H can ride those with fenders, so I might lean 
>> that direction if I had to choose.  
>>
>> Toshi
>>
>>
>>
>>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Differences between Sam Hillborne and A Homer Hilsen

[Dave Grossman]

I have an older Homer (not sure if it is Waterford or Toyo but I'd like to 
know actually) and having owned a Roadini I can say I find it a much 
superior all around bike.  I hadn't considered a Sam since I have a Hunq 
but I can do light touring and backpacking with my Homer if I desire.  I 
rotate it in my commuter stable with the Hunq and I end up riding it quite 
often.  I currently have it set up with Crust Towel bars (with a large Fabs 
in the middle!), VO fenders, and 44s.  I have it maxed out, but it is such 
a great ride.  I've thought about getting a stripped road bike but the 
Homer is so versatile.  I think if I didn't have the Hunq, I'd be more 
inclined to get a Sam.  But if you already have a hauler an older Homer is 
the way to go.  I have a 63, which I am on the small side for with a 90 
pbh, but it fits great and I love the ride.  My Hunq is a 58 and while I 
can clear a 62 (I've ridden the 62 before) I love having the clearance that 
a slightly smaller frame allows for the rough stuff.  

On Monday, August 29, 2022 at 4:27:16 PM UTC-5 ttoshi wrote:

> Just to be more confusing, I have a circa 2012 Homer, and I believe the 
> even sizes are 650b and the odd sizes are 700c, so there was some overlap 
> within some of the sizes.  I have a 54 cm AHH 650b, and I believe the 55 cm 
> and 57 cm were 700c, while the 56 cm was 650b.  
>
> My Homer maxed out at 38 mm tires + fenders--I've used Parimoto, Lierre, 
> GravelKing, and Soma Xpress, and all are good for me (depending upon the 
> application, eg. commute vs fast ride).  My favorite tire size for 650b is 
> 42 mm, and I believe the Sam H can ride those with fenders, so I might lean 
> that direction if I had to choose.  
>
> Toshi
>
>
>
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Differences between Sam Hillborne and A Homer Hilsen

[Toshi Takeuchi]

Just to be more confusing, I have a circa 2012 Homer, and I believe the
even sizes are 650b and the odd sizes are 700c, so there was some overlap
within some of the sizes.  I have a 54 cm AHH 650b, and I believe the 55 cm
and 57 cm were 700c, while the 56 cm was 650b.

My Homer maxed out at 38 mm tires + fenders--I've used Parimoto, Lierre,
GravelKing, and Soma Xpress, and all are good for me (depending upon the
application, eg. commute vs fast ride).  My favorite tire size for 650b is
42 mm, and I believe the Sam H can ride those with fenders, so I might lean
that direction if I had to choose.

Toshi

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Re: [RBW] Re: Differences between Sam Hillborne and A Homer Hilsen

[R Shannon]

Dave:

There is considerable overlap with the bikes so I opted to keep the Sam to
have the ability for greater carrying capacity. Also, I had a custom road
bike in the pipeline. Incidentally, my first Riv was an Atlantis followed
by the Sage Green Sam; the Sam making a greater impression on me.

Best,
Rich in ATL

On Mon, Aug 29, 2022 at 12:54 PM Dave C 
wrote:

> Rich, why did you sell the Homer and keep the Sam? Were you hauling more
> gear? Thanks
>
> On Monday, August 29, 2022 at 9:48:47 AM UTC-7 RichS wrote:
>
>> Hello Dave:
>>
>> You note that you like to 'keep things light". Then go with the Homer. I
>> currently own a 2015 Hillborne and have owned a 2019 MIT Homer; both 51cm.,
>> 650b 38mm. tires. Both bikes had identical setups and the Homer was
>> certainly lighter — not by a lot but clearly discernible and consequently
>> felt a little more lively to me. As others have indicated both handle
>> similarly and offer a comfortable ride for distances of 100 miles or more
>> in a day.
>>
>> In sum, you won't go wrong with either bike.
>>
>> Best,
>> Rich in ATL
>>
>> On Sunday, August 28, 2022 at 7:48:19 PM UTC-4 Dave C wrote:
>>
>>> Has anyone has extensive experience riding both models, particularly the
>>> ones made in the 2015-2018 time period, and had an opportunity to see how
>>> they rode differently and handled different terrain? I am very interested
>>> in these models but they have changed in some ways over the years and I am
>>> trying to get a sense of what made them different besides just brake style
>>> and sometimes wheel size.. I have searched the past threads but there is
>>> not much direct comparison/contrast information. Thanks, Dave in Carlsbad
>>
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