Re: [RBW] Re: Need Advice on my 1x Drivetrain Woes

[Steve Palincsar]

Except if the trouble is specifically related to the friction shifting 
-- such as Hyperglide ghost shifting -- it will indeed fix the problem, 
as I know from personal experience with my AM Moulton.  It was initially 
built with SunTour Sprint (now "Silver") bar end shifters, 8 speed, 
ghost shifted so badly I couldn't ride the bike anyplace with stop signs 
and traffic lights.  I switched to indexed 8 speed bar end shifters and 
the bike shifts perfectly, never ghost shifts, and has done so for the 
past 14 years.  I later used those shifters on a 7 speed Hyperglide, 
where they work much better.



On 12/05/2016 10:09 AM, masmojo wrote:

Additionally,  if you are having problems shifting in fiction, simply going to 
index most likely won't fix the problem.



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Re: [RBW] Re: Need Advice on my 1x Drivetrain Woes

[Patrick Moore]

Huh! Very odd. Not at all my own experience. 

Sent from my iPhone

> On Dec 4, 2016, at 1:21 PM, Steve Palincsar  wrote:
> 
> 
> 
>> On 12/04/2016 02:10 PM, Patrick Moore wrote:
>> Steve: I am always surprised when I find that people have difficulty 
>> friction shifting Hyperglide, with any number of cogs from 7 to 9. IME, HG 
>> cogs shift better with friction than the old cogs with straight, square-cut 
>> teeth. I know what you mean by the feeling of lag, but while I experience 
>> that with indexed systems, I never experience it when shifting the same HG 
>> cogs in friction. I don't think my technique is so hugely refined, either. I 
>> probably do overshift slightly, from habit and without thinking, but I do 
>> that also with non-ramped/cut cogs. I rarely have to trim with HG.
> 
> Sure, they shift easily.  They want to shift.  What they don't want to do is 
> stay on a single sprocket - unless they are perfectly centered, and they 
> don't give you any tactile or auditory indication when that is.  So, the 
> result is, you're perfectly fine at low pressure -- say, coasting to a stop 
> at a traffic light -- but when you put a lot of pressure on the drive train, 
> such as climbing a steep section or starting the bike up from a dead halt, 
> the chain will upshift with a CRASH to the next smaller sprocket, commonly 
> known as "ghost shifting."
> 
>> 
>> Perhaps I so honed my shifting skills with a bent Alvit with loose pivots, 
>> pushrod Benelux, and bendy Simplex Delrin, that anything even slightly 
>> better is easy? But I doubt it.
>> 
>> I recall my old Herse, which I had equipped with a series of 5 or 6 speed 
>> fws, all pre HG. I forget what the rd was, but at any rate, the same rd 
>> shifter HG cogs better than it did the old fws. Same shifters, too.
>> 
>>> On Sun, Dec 4, 2016 at 7:11 AM, Steve Palincsar  wrote:
 On 12/03/2016 11:52 PM, Max S wrote:
 Friction shifting should be by far the easiest to set up and manage – just 
 get the limit screws set up right, which you can do without the chain on 
 the bike, and you're good to go. So, there's definitely something going on 
 that would be easiest to trouble-shoot "in person." 
 
>>> 
>>> Friction shifting Hyperglide is anything but "easy".  Yes the shifts happen 
>>> easily, much more so than was the case in the 1970s, but you don't get the 
>>> clack-clack-clack feedback to let you know when you are properly centered, 
>>> making ghost shifts (which is the complaint here) likely.   I will admit, 
>>> though, 7 speed Hyperglide is easier to friction shift than 8.
>>> 
>>> 
 But I'll play online mechanic, too: 
 
 What hub are you running?.. If it's an 8-9-10 speed hub, a 7sp cassette 
 will most likely wobble, causing mis-shifts, and requiring a spacer to 
 fix. 
 If there's no wobble to the cassette, I'd check shifter cable tightness 
 when the RD & chain are on the smallest cog – if 
 it's too loose, the cable pull will be off throughout the entire range.
>>> 
>>> That may well be an issue with indexing, but with friction it means nothing 
>>> provided the lever has enough travel to take up tension to get to the 
>>> largest sprocket.
>>> 
>>> 
 (Also be sure that the shifters aren't slipping mid-range – tighten if 
 needed.) 
 
 Also, are the cogs ramped?.. some 7sp cassettes (and freewheels) didn't 
 have any ramps.
>>> 
>>> The cassette in question is definitely Hyperglide.  I've never used an 
>>> 8-9-10 speed hub, both my 7 speed setups are with spacers on 8/9, but with 
>>> that spacer in place they certainly don't wobble.   And the OP is using a 
>>> spacer.
>>> 
 A 9 sp chain could simply be too flexible to get onto the next cog without 
 a greater overshift, requiring you to "back off" right after the shift 
 happens. (Shift happens...ha!) (In the olden days, that's how people 
 friction-shifted anyway, and then some early indexing shifters – SunTour – 
 even took that into account with built-in lashback.) 
>>> 
>>> I think you're confusing cause and effect.  Readers of Frank Berto's 
>>> exhaustive derailleur studies BITD will recall that some derailleurs were 
>>> "early shifting" (e.g., Shimano) while others were "late shifting" (for 
>>> example, Campagnolo NR and SunTour).  Overshifting and backing off is 
>>> required technique with late shifting rear derailleurs, but not necessarily 
>>> with early shifting ones.   
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
 
 Lastly, I'd not mess with a 9sp chain on a 7sp cassette. An 7/8 sp chain 
 is usually the same whether for a 7 or 8 sp cluster, but a 9 sp chain 
 tends to make noise and misbehaves a bit on a 7 or 8 sp cluster, IME. 
>>> 
>>> In fact, although when 8 first came out there was a difference between 7 
>>> speed and 8 speed chains today those 8 speed chains are called 7/8 by the 
>>> manufacturers, sometimes even 6/7/8 or 

Re: [RBW] Re: Need Advice on my 1x Drivetrain Woes

[Steve Palincsar]

On 12/04/2016 02:10 PM, Patrick Moore wrote:
Steve: I am always surprised when I find that people have difficulty 
friction shifting Hyperglide, with any number of cogs from 7 to 9. 
IME, HG cogs shift /better/ with friction than the old cogs with 
straight, square-cut teeth. I know what you mean by the feeling of 
lag, but while I experience that /with/ indexed systems, I 
/never/ experience it when shifting the same HG cogs in friction. I 
don't think my technique is so hugely refined, either. I probably do 
overshift slightly, from habit and without thinking, but I do that 
also with non-ramped/cut cogs. I rarely have to trim with HG.


Sure, they shift easily.  They /want/ to shift.  What they /don't/ want 
to do is stay on a single sprocket - unless they are perfectly centered, 
and they don't give you any tactile or auditory indication when that 
is.  So, the result is, you're perfectly fine at low pressure -- say, 
coasting to a stop at a traffic light -- but when you put a lot of 
pressure on the drive train, such as climbing a steep section or 
starting the bike up from a dead halt, the chain will upshift with a 
CRASH to the next smaller sprocket, commonly known as "ghost shifting."




Perhaps I so honed my shifting skills with a bent Alvit with loose 
pivots, pushrod Benelux, and bendy Simplex Delrin, that anything even 
slightly better is easy? But I doubt it.


I recall my old Herse, which I had equipped with a series of 5 or 6 
speed fws, all pre HG. I forget what the rd was, but at any rate, the 
same rd shifter HG cogs /better/ than it did the old fws. Same 
shifters, too.


On Sun, Dec 4, 2016 at 7:11 AM, Steve Palincsar > wrote:


On 12/03/2016 11:52 PM, Max S wrote:

Friction shifting should be by far the easiest to set up and
manage – just get the limit screws set up right, which you can do
without the chain on the bike, and you're good to go. So, there's
definitely something going on that would be easiest to
trouble-shoot "in person."



Friction shifting Hyperglide is anything but "easy".  Yes the
shifts happen easily, much more so than was the case in the 1970s,
but you don't get the clack-clack-clack feedback to let you know
when you are properly centered, making ghost shifts (which is the
complaint here) likely.   I will admit, though, 7 speed Hyperglide
is easier to friction shift than 8.



But I'll play online mechanic, too:

What hub are you running?.. If it's an 8-9-10 speed hub, a 7sp
cassette will most likely wobble, causing mis-shifts, and
requiring a spacer to fix.
If there's no wobble to the cassette, I'd check shifter cable
tightness when the RD & chain are on the smallest cog – if it's
too loose, the cable pull will be off throughout the entire range.


That may well be an issue with indexing, but with friction it
means nothing provided the lever has enough travel to take up
tension to get to the largest sprocket.



(Also be sure that the shifters aren't slipping mid-range –
tighten if needed.)

Also, are the cogs ramped?.. some 7sp cassettes (and freewheels)
didn't have any ramps.


The cassette in question is definitely Hyperglide.  I've never
used an 8-9-10 speed hub, both my 7 speed setups are with spacers
on 8/9, but with that spacer in place they certainly don't
wobble.   And the OP is using a spacer.


A 9 sp chain could simply be too flexible to get onto the next
cog without a greater overshift, requiring you to "back off"
right after the shift happens. (Shift happens...ha!) (In the
olden days, that's how people friction-shifted anyway, and then
some early indexing shifters – SunTour – even took that into
account with built-in lashback.)


I think you're confusing cause and effect. Readers of Frank
Berto's exhaustive derailleur studies BITD will recall that some
derailleurs were "early shifting" (e.g., Shimano) while others
were "late shifting" (for example, Campagnolo NR and SunTour).
Overshifting and backing off is required technique with late
shifting rear derailleurs, but not necessarily with early shifting
ones.





Lastly, I'd not mess with a 9sp chain on a 7sp cassette. An 7/8
sp chain is usually the same whether for a 7 or 8 sp cluster, but
a 9 sp chain tends to make noise and misbehaves a bit on a 7 or 8
sp cluster, IME.


In fact, although when 8 first came out there was a difference
between 7 speed and 8 speed chains today those 8 speed chains are
called 7/8 by the manufacturers, sometimes even 6/7/8 or 5/6/7/8. 
I've never actually tried a 9 speed chain on 7.




BTW, I was setting up a "1xN" bike for my kid and discovered that
the rear hub was Shimano 600 of the 7sp variety. Due to a number
of considerations, I needed to fit a 9sp cassette on there, so I
just dropped the 

Re: [RBW] Re: Need Advice on my 1x Drivetrain Woes

[Patrick Moore]

Steve: I am always surprised when I find that people have difficulty
friction shifting Hyperglide, with any number of cogs from 7 to 9. IME, HG
cogs shift *better* with friction than the old cogs with straight,
square-cut teeth. I know what you mean by the feeling of lag, but while I
experience that *with* indexed systems, I *never* experience it when
shifting the same HG cogs in friction. I don't think my technique is so
hugely refined, either. I probably do overshift slightly, from habit and
without thinking, but I do that also with non-ramped/cut cogs. I rarely
have to trim with HG.

Perhaps I so honed my shifting skills with a bent Alvit with loose pivots,
pushrod Benelux, and bendy Simplex Delrin, that anything even slightly
better is easy? But I doubt it.

I recall my old Herse, which I had equipped with a series of 5 or 6 speed
fws, all pre HG. I forget what the rd was, but at any rate, the same rd
shifter HG cogs *better* than it did the old fws. Same shifters, too.

On Sun, Dec 4, 2016 at 7:11 AM, Steve Palincsar  wrote:

> On 12/03/2016 11:52 PM, Max S wrote:
>
> Friction shifting should be by far the easiest to set up and manage – just
> get the limit screws set up right, which you can do without the chain on
> the bike, and you're good to go. So, there's definitely something going on
> that would be easiest to trouble-shoot "in person."
>
>
> Friction shifting Hyperglide is anything but "easy".  Yes the shifts
> happen easily, much more so than was the case in the 1970s, but you don't
> get the clack-clack-clack feedback to let you know when you are properly
> centered, making ghost shifts (which is the complaint here) likely.   I
> will admit, though, 7 speed Hyperglide is easier to friction shift than 8.
>
>
> But I'll play online mechanic, too:
>
> What hub are you running?.. If it's an 8-9-10 speed hub, a 7sp cassette
> will most likely wobble, causing mis-shifts, and requiring a spacer to
> fix.
> If there's no wobble to the cassette, I'd check shifter cable tightness
> when the RD & chain are on the smallest cog – if it's too loose, the cable
> pull will be off throughout the entire range.
>
>
> That may well be an issue with indexing, but with friction it means
> nothing provided the lever has enough travel to take up tension to get to
> the largest sprocket.
>
>
> (Also be sure that the shifters aren't slipping mid-range – tighten if
> needed.)
>
> Also, are the cogs ramped?.. some 7sp cassettes (and freewheels) didn't
> have any ramps.
>
>
> The cassette in question is definitely Hyperglide.  I've never used an
> 8-9-10 speed hub, both my 7 speed setups are with spacers on 8/9, but with
> that spacer in place they certainly don't wobble.   And the OP is using a
> spacer.
>
> A 9 sp chain could simply be too flexible to get onto the next cog without
> a greater overshift, requiring you to "back off" right after the shift
> happens. (Shift happens...ha!) (In the olden days, that's how people
> friction-shifted anyway, and then some early indexing shifters – SunTour –
> even took that into account with built-in lashback.)
>
>
> I think you're confusing cause and effect.  Readers of Frank Berto's
> exhaustive derailleur studies BITD will recall that some derailleurs were
> "early shifting" (e.g., Shimano) while others were "late shifting" (for
> example, Campagnolo NR and SunTour).  Overshifting and backing off is
> required technique with late shifting rear derailleurs, but not necessarily
> with early shifting ones.
>
>
>
>
> Lastly, I'd not mess with a 9sp chain on a 7sp cassette. An 7/8 sp chain
> is usually the same whether for a 7 or 8 sp cluster, but a 9 sp chain tends
> to make noise and misbehaves a bit on a 7 or 8 sp cluster, IME.
>
>
> In fact, although when 8 first came out there was a difference between 7
> speed and 8 speed chains today those 8 speed chains are called 7/8 by the
> manufacturers, sometimes even 6/7/8 or 5/6/7/8.  I've never actually tried
> a 9 speed chain on 7.
>
>
> BTW, I was setting up a "1xN" bike for my kid and discovered that the rear
> hub was Shimano 600 of the 7sp variety. Due to a number of considerations,
> I needed to fit a 9sp cassette on there, so I just dropped the
> next-to-smallest cog from the cluster and ended up with an 8 cog cluster
> having 9sp spacing. Shifts great, even with indexing. :-)
>
>
> Sheldon's famous "8 of 9 on 7"  -- which for some reason always makes me
> think of her:
>
>
>
>
>
> - Max (A2)
>
>
> On Saturday, December 3, 2016 at 4:16:00 PM UTC-5, Eric Karnes wrote:
>>
>> Hi all-
>>
>> I was wondering if I could pick your brain a bit on this. I ended up with
>> the following setup for my Hilsen 1x7:
>>
>> - Existing Wolf Tooth 40T Drop Stop wide/narrow ring
>> - Deore 9spd Rear Derailleur (with pulleys swapped ala Deacon Patrick's
>> advice)
>> - Riv Silver Downtube Shifters
>> - HG-50 7sp Cassette (12-32) spaced with proper notched spacer on a
>> 8/9/10 speed cassette
>> - SRAM 9 speed chain (narrower 9 

Re: [RBW] Re: Need Advice on my 1x Drivetrain Woes

[Eric Karnes]

Yes, fair enough. I probably should have explained that...

I've had consistent problems friction shifting (which I slightly prefer 
with DT shifters) a 9 speed cassette. I know some people have no trouble 
with it, but I tried it for months and could never quite get the hang of 
it. Ghost shifting whenever I cranked down on a hill. Hence going down to a 
7sp after a bunch of research reading older threads on this wonderful 
forum. The nine speed components that I'm using 'shouldn't' have any issue 
running a 7 speed cassette. The shifters are friction and the derailleur is 
a derailleur. And I had a good deal of the drivetrain on hand, so it wasn't 
too expensive. I basically just bought the cassette and spacer ring...and 
upgraded to Silver shifters while I was at it. That said, if this doesn't 
work out, I'll just go back to indexing, which won't be the end of the 
world. 

And Steve is correct. The cassette is definitely hyper glide and is 
properly spaced with a spacer I notched to fit over the rivets in the back 
of the cassette. Upon closer inspection recommended by Deacon Patrick, it 
appears the teeth are designed to vary in horizontal position pretty 
considerably on this cassette (more so on others I've seen) and some are 
getting pretty danged close to the inside edges of the chain. So I'm 
inclined to think a 7/8 chain may in fact be the issue. I'll pick one up at 
the LBS this afternoon and see if that fixes it.

Thanks for everyone's input. I know virtual mechanic-ing isn't easy!

Eric


On Sunday, December 4, 2016 at 9:46:42 AM UTC-5, masmojo wrote:
>
> Sorry if I missed something by not reading all the previous posts, but I 
> am just scratching my head at your component choices clearly the issue is 
> trying to use 7 speeds on a 9+ set up. If your chain and derailleurs are 
> optimized for more then 7 speeds then why not run more? You've already 
> dropped the cash for the Wolftooth, derailleurs, etc.
> Why not just throw as many cogs on your cassette as it's designed to hold 
> and get on with the program? Running 7 speeds is fine if you got a bunch of 
> 7 speed gear laying around, but if not, why bother?
> I am running a 1 X 10 on my Atlantis & having no issues!
> Maybe I missed something, but it sounds like you are making your life 
> unnecessarily difficult!

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Re: [RBW] Re: Need Advice on my 1x Drivetrain Woes

[masmojo]

Sorry if I missed something by not reading all the previous posts, but I am 
just scratching my head at your component choices clearly the issue is trying 
to use 7 speeds on a 9+ set up. If your chain and derailleurs are optimized for 
more then 7 speeds then why not run more? You've already dropped the cash for 
the Wolftooth, derailleurs, etc.
Why not just throw as many cogs on your cassette as it's designed to hold and 
get on with the program? Running 7 speeds is fine if you got a bunch of 7 speed 
gear laying around, but if not, why bother?
I am running a 1 X 10 on my Atlantis & having no issues!
Maybe I missed something, but it sounds like you are making your life 
unnecessarily difficult!

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Re: [RBW] Re: Need Advice on my 1x Drivetrain Woes

[Steve Palincsar]

On 12/03/2016 11:52 PM, Max S wrote:
Friction shifting should be by far the easiest to set up and manage – 
just get the limit screws set up right, which you can do without the 
chain on the bike, and you're good to go. So, there's definitely 
something going on that would be easiest to trouble-shoot "in person."




Friction shifting Hyperglide is anything but "easy".  Yes the shifts 
happen easily, much more so than was the case in the 1970s, but you 
don't get the clack-clack-clack feedback to let you know when you are 
properly centered, making ghost shifts (which is the complaint here) 
likely.   I will admit, though, 7 speed Hyperglide is easier to friction 
shift than 8.




But I'll play online mechanic, too:

What hub are you running?.. If it's an 8-9-10 speed hub, a 7sp 
cassette will most likely wobble, causing mis-shifts, and requiring a 
spacer to fix.
If there's no wobble to the cassette, I'd check shifter cable 
tightness when the RD & chain are on the smallest cog – if it's too 
loose, the cable pull will be off throughout the entire range.


That may well be an issue with indexing, but with friction it means 
nothing provided the lever has enough travel to take up tension to get 
to the largest sprocket.



(Also be sure that the shifters aren't slipping mid-range – tighten if 
needed.)


Also, are the cogs ramped?.. some 7sp cassettes (and freewheels) 
didn't have any ramps.


The cassette in question is definitely Hyperglide.  I've never used an 
8-9-10 speed hub, both my 7 speed setups are with spacers on 8/9, but 
with that spacer in place they certainly don't wobble.   And the OP is 
using a spacer.


A 9 sp chain could simply be too flexible to get onto the next cog 
without a greater overshift, requiring you to "back off" right after 
the shift happens. (Shift happens...ha!) (In the olden days, that's 
how people friction-shifted anyway, and then some early indexing 
shifters – SunTour – even took that into account with built-in lashback.)


I think you're confusing cause and effect.  Readers of Frank Berto's 
exhaustive derailleur studies BITD will recall that some derailleurs 
were "early shifting" (e.g., Shimano) while others were "late shifting" 
(for example, Campagnolo NR and SunTour).  Overshifting and backing off 
is required technique with late shifting rear derailleurs, but not 
necessarily with early shifting ones.






Lastly, I'd not mess with a 9sp chain on a 7sp cassette. An 7/8 sp 
chain is usually the same whether for a 7 or 8 sp cluster, but a 9 sp 
chain tends to make noise and misbehaves a bit on a 7 or 8 sp cluster, 
IME.


In fact, although when 8 first came out there was a difference between 7 
speed and 8 speed chains today those 8 speed chains are called 7/8 by 
the manufacturers, sometimes even 6/7/8 or 5/6/7/8. I've never actually 
tried a 9 speed chain on 7.




BTW, I was setting up a "1xN" bike for my kid and discovered that the 
rear hub was Shimano 600 of the 7sp variety. Due to a number of 
considerations, I needed to fit a 9sp cassette on there, so I just 
dropped the next-to-smallest cog from the cluster and ended up with an 
8 cog cluster having 9sp spacing. Shifts great, even with indexing. :-)


Sheldon's famous "8 of 9 on 7"  -- which for some reason always makes me 
think of her:







- Max (A2)

On Saturday, December 3, 2016 at 4:16:00 PM UTC-5, Eric Karnes wrote:

Hi all-

I was wondering if I could pick your brain a bit on this. I ended
up with the following setup for my Hilsen 1x7:

- Existing Wolf Tooth 40T Drop Stop wide/narrow ring
- Deore 9spd Rear Derailleur (with pulleys swapped ala Deacon
Patrick's advice)
- Riv Silver Downtube Shifters
- HG-50 7sp Cassette (12-32) spaced with proper notched spacer on
a 8/9/10 speed cassette
- SRAM 9 speed chain (narrower 9 or 10sp chains are recommended
for the Drop Stop ring)

Anyway, shifting is even worse than it was. Aside from constant
ghost shifting under load, it honestly feels like I'm NEVER in
gear and can't really ride the bike as is (though I made a valiant
effort today). Even on the bike stand, there feels like there is
friction when I spin the crank. I'm not a skilled home mechanic by
any means, but I don't usually feel this incompetent! Oy.

Anyone have  a similar 1x setup? And any advice? I'm thinking of
just going to a standard 1x matched index setup and selling these
parts. But that's a pricey proposition for me and I wanted to see
if I could figure this out first.

Thanks!

Eric

P.S. I know the logical solution is to just bring it to a local
LBS. But I'm having a lot of trouble finding one within riding
distance (I don't own a car) that even knows how to work with
'retro-y' parts. I've pretty much given up on cantilever brakes
for this reason...after spending a ton of money getting them (very
poorly) installed and adjusted a number of times...including once