Re: [RE-wrenches] Grounding Requirement Question

[Ray Walters]

I think 690.47 C 3 covers this in the new 2011 code. The info notes 1 & 
2 also yield more clarification. As always confusion reins until we get 
some actual interpretation from Bill Brooks or John Wiles, as all of 
this was completely rewritten. Feel free to correct me, any and 
everyone, but this is my humble interpretation:
The E-panel provides the required combined AC & DC grounding busbar (in 
note 1) Note 2 says you can use the existing premises grounding system, 
and C(3) says the AC EGC can be combined with the DC GEC and run back to 
the premises AC grounding busbar in the same conduit as your AC conductors.
I think the main thing to check here is that you have properly sized the 
single combined conductor (AC EGC/  DC GEC) and that it is unspliced 
from the E panel to the main AC grounding busbar, and finally, that the 
existing AC GEC runs directly from that busbar to the grounding electrode.
Its pretty clear IMHO that you don't need to run a separate GEC all the 
way back to the grounding electrode (unless you're not on 2011 code?)


BTW, I usually sink a supplemental ground rod direct from the E-panel 
for lightning protection ( and to satisfy 2008 code) but my read is that 
is no longer required by 2011 code as 690.47 D was deleted.
I love how some folks act like you're going to burn the place down if 
you don't absolutely follow current code, and a couple of years later 
the code completely changes its mind, again, and again.:)


Ray Walters


On 9/6/2011 1:59 PM, Aaron Mandelkorn wrote:

Wrenches,

Just installed a Magnum MS-PAE battery based system on an E-Panel 
distribution box and my inspector seems to have an issue with the 
grounding.  He is saying that I must run an additional GEC down to the 
ground rod because I am dealing with two separate grounding systems. 
 The DC and AC side of the grounding system shares the same ground 
buss bar in the E-Panel so why wouldn't a single GEC down to the 
ground rod suffice?  The buss bar is where the two systems get 
grounded together rather than at the rod.  The inspector is telling me 
to either dig up the rod and run an additional GEC down to it or 
connect the additional GEC to the existing with an irreversible 
splice.  Am I missing something here?  This requirement just seem 
redundant and wasteful.  If I do have to make the correction I will be 
going with the splicing option.   Some advise on irreversible splices 
would also be greatly appreciated.  I can't seem to source them 
locally and have never used them before.  Thanks for any help.



Aaron Mandelkorn
NABCEP Certified PV Installer

Renewable Energy Outfitters
(970)596-3744
reoso...@gmail.com 
www.reosolar.com 









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Re: [RE-wrenches] Grounding Requirement Question

[Mark Frye]

Aaron,
 
I am still back at NEC 2008 on this but see 690.47 (C), especially (3) ..a
single conductor shall be permitted to be used to perform the multiple
functions of dc grounding, ac grouding,.(5) a common buss bar shall be
permitted to be used for both systems (6) a common grounding electrode shall
be permitted to be used for both systems...
 
Review this article and share it with your inspector in order to determine
what is motivating him.
 
Mark Frye 
Berkeley Solar Electric Systems 
303 Redbud Way 
Nevada City,  CA 95959 
(530) 401-8024 
  www.berkeleysolar.com  
 

  _  

From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Aaron
Mandelkorn
Sent: Tuesday, September 06, 2011 12:59 PM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: [RE-wrenches] Grounding Requirement Question


Wrenches,   

Just installed a Magnum MS-PAE battery based system on an E-Panel
distribution box and my inspector seems to have an issue with the grounding.
He is saying that I must run an additional GEC down to the ground rod
because I am dealing with two separate grounding systems.  The DC and AC
side of the grounding system shares the same ground buss bar in the E-Panel
so why wouldn't a single GEC down to the ground rod suffice?  The buss bar
is where the two systems get grounded together rather than at the rod.  The
inspector is telling me to either dig up the rod and run an additional GEC
down to it or connect the additional GEC to the existing with an
irreversible splice.  Am I missing something here?  This requirement just
seem redundant and wasteful.  If I do have to make the correction I will be
going with the splicing option.   Some advise on irreversible splices would
also be greatly appreciated.  I can't seem to source them locally and have
never used them before.  Thanks for any help.  


Aaron Mandelkorn
NABCEP Certified PV Installer


Renewable Energy Outfitters
(970)596-3744
reoso...@gmail.com
www.reosolar.com









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Re: [RE-wrenches] 690.31(B) "within the photovoltaic array"

[wirewiz]

Lumeta dealer has been sending links for unlisted wire management systems,
nothing from Lumeta itself. Cooper B-Line EnviroShield is listed and is an
easier drop in raceway but very expensive.

On Tue, Sep 6, 2011 at 4:02 PM, Mark Frye  wrote:

> **
> The idea of "within the array" goes to the idea that the conductors will be
> located on the underside of an array of traditional framed moduled and will
> be afforded a modicum of protection from physical damage by the module
> itself.
>
> So the issue is one of physical protection of the conductors. That is what
> tha AJH should be looking to. If he has cold feet about approving a
> non-standard method using un-listed componets based on local conditions,
> then he is understandably going to ask for a solution utilizing listed
> materials and standard methods.
>
> What kind of support are you getting from Lumeta around this?
>
> Mark Frye
> Berkeley Solar Electric Systems
> 303 Redbud Way
> Nevada City,  CA 95959
> (530) 401-8024
> *www.berkeleysolar.com* 
>
>
>  --
> *From:* re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:
> re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *
> wire...@gmail.com
> *Sent:* Tuesday, September 06, 2011 12:44 PM
> *To:* re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
> *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] 690.31(B) "within the photovoltaic array"
>
> Wrenches,
>
> I am installing Lumeta peel and stick modules (similar to laminates) on a
> flat EPDM roof. No racking. NEC2008 690.31(B) says single conductor cable
> listed and labeled as PV wire shall be permitted in exposed outdoor
> locations..."within the array". 690.2 defines array as a mechanically
> integrated assembly of modules or panels within a support structure...to
> form a direct-current power producing unit. With the Lumeta's there is no
> support structure. If you look at the diagram in the NEC 2008 (page 70-576)
> it shows a box around the modules or panels and labels that box as the
> "Array or photovoltaic power source".
>
> My AHJ was at first not sure but then told me I had to install all the PV
> wire in a listed raceway because the interconnects between the Lumeta's were
> not within the array. But if you draw a box around all the Lumeta's it would
> look like the array diagram that I referred to above.
>
> Because of my roof layout, it would be much easier to install an unlisted
> wire management system within the array rather than conduit which I will do
> but in reading the NEC it just wasn't clear to me what "within the array"
> means.
>
> Any thoughts would be appreciated.
>
> Thank you.
>
> Larry Liesner
> Design and Installations
> Elektron Solar, LLC
> 16 Ketchum St.
> Westport, CT 06880
> 203-557-3127 (office)
> 203-644-2404 (cell)
> 203-549-0977 (fax)
> wire...@gmail.com
> NABCEP Certified PV Installer (# 032611-184)
>
>
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>
>


-- 
Larry Liesner
Design and Installations
Elektron Solar, LLC
49 Richmondville Ave Suite 107
Westport, CT 06880
203-557-3127 (office)
203-644-2404 (cell)
203-549-0977 (fax)
wire...@gmail.com
NABCEP Certified PV Installer (# 032611-184)
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Re: [RE-wrenches] 690.31(B) "within the photovoltaic array"

[Mark Frye]

The idea of "within the array" goes to the idea that the conductors will be
located on the underside of an array of traditional framed moduled and will
be afforded a modicum of protection from physical damage by the module
itself.
 
So the issue is one of physical protection of the conductors. That is what
tha AJH should be looking to. If he has cold feet about approving a
non-standard method using un-listed componets based on local conditions,
then he is understandably going to ask for a solution utilizing listed
materials and standard methods.
 
What kind of support are you getting from Lumeta around this?

Mark Frye 
Berkeley Solar Electric Systems 
303 Redbud Way 
Nevada City,  CA 95959 
(530) 401-8024 
  www.berkeleysolar.com  
 

  _  

From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of
wire...@gmail.com
Sent: Tuesday, September 06, 2011 12:44 PM
To: re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
Subject: [RE-wrenches] 690.31(B) "within the photovoltaic array"


Wrenches,

I am installing Lumeta peel and stick modules (similar to laminates) on a
flat EPDM roof. No racking. NEC2008 690.31(B) says single conductor cable
listed and labeled as PV wire shall be permitted in exposed outdoor
locations..."within the array". 690.2 defines array as a mechanically
integrated assembly of modules or panels within a support structure...to
form a direct-current power producing unit. With the Lumeta's there is no
support structure. If you look at the diagram in the NEC 2008 (page 70-576)
it shows a box around the modules or panels and labels that box as the
"Array or photovoltaic power source". 

My AHJ was at first not sure but then told me I had to install all the PV
wire in a listed raceway because the interconnects between the Lumeta's were
not within the array. But if you draw a box around all the Lumeta's it would
look like the array diagram that I referred to above.

Because of my roof layout, it would be much easier to install an unlisted
wire management system within the array rather than conduit which I will do
but in reading the NEC it just wasn't clear to me what "within the array"
means.

Any thoughts would be appreciated.

Thank you.

Larry Liesner
Design and Installations
Elektron Solar, LLC
16 Ketchum St.
Westport, CT 06880
203-557-3127 (office)
203-644-2404 (cell)
203-549-0977 (fax)
wire...@gmail.com
NABCEP Certified PV Installer (# 032611-184)


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[RE-wrenches] Grounding Requirement Question

[Aaron Mandelkorn]

Wrenches,  

Just installed a Magnum MS-PAE battery based system on an E-Panel distribution 
box and my inspector seems to have an issue with the grounding.  He is saying 
that I must run an additional GEC down to the ground rod because I am dealing 
with two separate grounding systems.  The DC and AC side of the grounding 
system shares the same ground buss bar in the E-Panel so why wouldn't a single 
GEC down to the ground rod suffice?  The buss bar is where the two systems get 
grounded together rather than at the rod.  The inspector is telling me to 
either dig up the rod and run an additional GEC down to it or connect the 
additional GEC to the existing with an irreversible splice.  Am I missing 
something here?  This requirement just seem redundant and wasteful.  If I do 
have to make the correction I will be going with the splicing option.   Some 
advise on irreversible splices would also be greatly appreciated.  I can't seem 
to source them locally and have never used them before.  Thanks for any help.   
  


Aaron Mandelkorn
NABCEP Certified PV Installer

Renewable Energy Outfitters
(970)596-3744
reoso...@gmail.com
www.reosolar.com







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[RE-wrenches] 690.31(B) "within the photovoltaic array"

[wirewiz]

Wrenches,

I am installing Lumeta peel and stick modules (similar to laminates) on a
flat EPDM roof. No racking. NEC2008 690.31(B) says single conductor cable
listed and labeled as PV wire shall be permitted in exposed outdoor
locations..."within the array". 690.2 defines array as a mechanically
integrated assembly of modules or panels within a support structure...to
form a direct-current power producing unit. With the Lumeta's there is no
support structure. If you look at the diagram in the NEC 2008 (page 70-576)
it shows a box around the modules or panels and labels that box as the
"Array or photovoltaic power source".

My AHJ was at first not sure but then told me I had to install all the PV
wire in a listed raceway because the interconnects between the Lumeta's were
not within the array. But if you draw a box around all the Lumeta's it would
look like the array diagram that I referred to above.

Because of my roof layout, it would be much easier to install an unlisted
wire management system within the array rather than conduit which I will do
but in reading the NEC it just wasn't clear to me what "within the array"
means.

Any thoughts would be appreciated.

Thank you.

Larry Liesner
Design and Installations
Elektron Solar, LLC
16 Ketchum St.
Westport, CT 06880
203-557-3127 (office)
203-644-2404 (cell)
203-549-0977 (fax)
wire...@gmail.com
NABCEP Certified PV Installer (# 032611-184)
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Re: [RE-wrenches] AC Coupling

[Brian Faley]

Kent,

 

Yes, that is the drawing of a typical installation.

 

Regards, 

Brian

 

Brian Faley

Chief Engineer

Magnum Energy

2111 W Casino Rd

Everett, WA 98204

425-353-8833

bfa...@magnumenergy.com

 



From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Kent
Osterberg
Sent: Saturday, September 03, 2011 1:47 PM
To: al...@positiveenergysolar.com; RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] AC Coupling

 

Brian,



Is this the drawing?

Magnum ac coupled diagram
  from Google
cache.



Kent Osterberg

Blue Mountain Solar








 
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[RE-wrenches] battey back-up questions

[Kirk Herander, VSE]

I am getting rusty on my battery knowledge as I rarely work with them
anymore, so here's a few questions for you battery gurus out there. In
back-up systems with flooded batteries, I've always been told it's good to
put them through several charge/discharge cycles when they are new to
achieve rated capacity, then perhaps simulate a power failure to exercise
them at some regular basis so they don't lose capacity by inactively sitting
there at a float charge. Is this accurate information for flooded battery
care in this situation?

What should be done differently for gell / AGM batteries in a backup system?
Does regular exercise or lack thereof have any influence on longevity?
Thanks.

 

Kirk Herander

Vermont Solar Engineering

802.863.1202  fax 802.863.7908

VT RE Incentive Program  Partner

NYSERDA Incentive-eligible Partner

NABCEPTMCharter Member Certified Installer

 

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