Re: [RE-wrenches] Enphase AC Frequency Out Of Range
I'd like to revisit a thread from early February where we were discussing Enphase microinverters going off line due to utility power quality issues when Pinging of smart meters occur. I have a system where I was told by Enphase that they applied their software fix in late March, but in this case it did work in fixing the problem of the inverters dropping for anywhere from 5 minutes to an hour a couple of times per day. The drops are not regular and now it appears that they are not connected to the pinging of the meters on my customers site as we had the utility change their schedule to only ping at midnight. We are still seeing AC Frequency Out of Range errors almost daily on our M-215 inverters. Sometimes it is for only several inverters and other times up to the whole array of 32 inverters. On my other Enphase systems have no problems. What other issues besides utility pinging of my customers smart meter could be causing the problem? Could the pinging of the neighbors meters by the utility off of the same transformer be affecting the Enphase M-215's? I'm suspicious of something other than this because the errors occur at random times that appear unrelated to utility pinging. Thanks, Dave David Palumbo Independent Power LLC 462 Solar Way Drive Hyde Park, VT 05655 www.independentpowerllc.com Vermont Solar Partner 25 Years Experience, (802) 888-7194 ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Fuse sizing in battery circuits
Hi Drake, The Sunny Island System runs at 48 V nominal so I don't believe 250.162(A) applies. We have some really savvy inspectors in the Bay Area and they were happy for us to be ungrounded since we're operating at 48 V. Yes, the actual voltage might go above 50 V when charging but I believe it is the nominal voltage that the code cares about. Best, August *From:* re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *Drake *Sent:* Saturday, April 13, 2013 12:14 PM *To:* RE-wrenches *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Fuse sizing in battery circuits Is it possible that not grounding the DC on an inverter could be code compliant? In the past, we were always required to install grounding electrode conductors to the DC negative, as required for grounding Direct Current systems (250 VIII). Maybe grounding can be eliminated in a purely AC coupled system due to the fact that the system is not supplying premise wiring. Maybe the DC can be considered as an integral part of the system supplying the AC. The rules for grounding DC are stated below. 250.162 Direct current Circuits and Systems to Be Grounded (A) Two-Wire, Direct-Current Systems. A 2-wire, dc system supplying premises wiring and operating at greater than 50 volts but not greater than 300 volts shall be grounded. Exception No. 1: A system equipped with a ground detector and supplying only industrial equipment in limited areas shall not be required to be grounded. Exception No. 2: A rectifier-derived dc system supplied from an ac system complying with 250.20 shall not be required to be grounded. Exception No. 3: Direct-current fire alarm circuits having a maximum current of 0.030 ampere as specified in Article 760, Part III, shall not be required to be grounded. In a Sunny Island system there is no charge control, nothing else in the DC besides the battery and battery cables. Does not grounding the negative really meet code requirements in the US ? Are the inverter cables not considered to be premise wiring? Thanks, Drake At 03:56 PM 4/10/2013, you wrote: Content-Class: urn:content-classes:message Content-Language: en-US Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=_000_B448FC9E37458B469E77EA0BB954AD4702BD99AC6Emailbox01_ August: The SI can run with an ungrounded battery or a grounded battery. With the internal breaker it is set up for a negative ground battery. I believe the manual says ground at the battery terminal. If you chose to go ungrounded you will need to have an OCPD in both battery + and battery – (all ungrounded conductors). I am pretty sure the SI is not internally bonded to ground. This is normal in the rest of the world. Mine are running with an ungrounded battery and there isolation between battery and ground. Best Regards, John Berdner General Manager, North America SolarEdge Technologies, Inc. 3347 Gateway Boulevard, Fremont CA 94538 USA *(*Please note of our new address.)* T: 510.498.3200, X 747 M: 530.277.4894 *From:* re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.orgre-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *August Goers *Sent:* Wednesday, April 10, 2013 9:45 AM *To:* RE-wrenches *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Fuse sizing in battery circuits Hi All - As a slightly separate topic, should we fuse both the positive and negative battery lines with an SMA Sunny Island? I believe that the negative is grounded so should not be fused but I've heard conflicting stories from tech support. Thanks, August *From:* re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.orgre-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *Drake *Sent:* Wednesday, April 10, 2013 5:52 AM *To:* RE-wrenches *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Fuse sizing in battery circuits boB, SMA does recommend protecting Sunny Islands with a fuse on the battery, even though the breakers on the units are rated for 10,000 Amps. Are the SI breakers inferior others you have mentioned? Thanks, Drake At 12:14 AM 4/10/2013, you wrote: After 100's of thousands of inverters having been shipped in the last many years and thousands of inverters broken and shorting the battery terminals, there has never been (to our knowledge) one breaker that has not tripped. The Midnite site lists the AIC rating of all our breakers I believe. The Carling F series of Magnetic-Hydraulic breakers poop sheet is here... http://www.carlingtech.com/sites/default/files/documents/F-Series_Details_%26_COS_0.pdf I guess there isn't a graph of AIC vs. voltage on their F series web page but we remember them showing us figures or a graph that says those breakers have an AIC of more than 100,000 amps at 48 volts. We'll try to find that info or you may be able to get that from Carling. I have, many times, directly connected these breakers across good L-16 battery strings to demonstrate the left-hand rule to people where the 4/0
[RE-wrenches] Micro-inverters for 3-phase 220/127 in Mexico
Wrenches, A customer in Mexico wants to start with about 10kW PV. They have a 225 kva transformer supplying 220/127 volt 3-phase to the property. They are adding buildings/roof space in several stages over the next 4 years and want to grow the installation to 120kW of PV solar power. Manufacturer data sheets are not real clear. Who makes micro-inverters suitable for this? I know Enphase does not. Thank you, Larry Crutcher Starlight Solar Power Systems ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Fuse sizing in battery circuits
Hi August; 250.162(A) says operating at greater than 50 v, which a 48 v nominal system operates most of the time at over 50 v, at least when solar charging and/or selling back. We used to get dinged many years ago for using breakers rated at 50v dc on 48 v systems. John Wiles used to insist we use the highest possible voltage (Voc of modules on coldest day) Personally I prefer ungrounded systems, so I'm not saying there's anything wrong from a safety stand point, just that inspectors here don't see it the same way. R.Ray Walters CTO, Solarray, Inc Nabcep Certified PV Installer, Licensed Master Electrician Solar Design Engineer 303 505-8760 On 4/15/2013 2:20 PM, August Goers wrote: Hi Drake, The Sunny Island System runs at 48 V nominal so I don't believe 250.162(A) applies. We have some really savvy inspectors in the Bay Area and they were happy for us to be ungrounded since we're operating at 48 V. Yes, the actual voltage might go above 50 V when charging but I believe it is the nominal voltage that the code cares about. Best, ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Enphase AC Frequency Out Of Range
Dave, The problem occurs when the kWh meter sends data. I would expect any neighbors' meters on the same transformer to cause trouble. And probably neighbors that are not on the same transformer too. Kent Osterberg Blue Mountain Solar, Inc. www.bluemountainsolar.com t: 541-568-4882 On 4/15/2013 1:12 PM, Dave Palumbo wrote: I'd like to revisit a thread from early February where we were discussing Enphase microinverters going off line due to utility power quality issues when Pinging of smart meters occur. I have a system where I was told by Enphase that they applied their software fix in late March, but in this case it did work in fixing the problem of the inverters dropping for anywhere from 5 minutes to an hour a couple of times per day. The drops are not regular and now it appears that they are not connected to the pinging of the meters on my customers site as we had the utility change their schedule to only ping at midnight. We are still seeing AC Frequency Out of Range errors almost daily on our M-215 inverters. Sometimes it is for only several inverters and other times up to the whole array of 32 inverters. On my other Enphase systems have no problems. What other issues besides utility pinging of my customers smart meter could be causing the problem? Could the pinging of the neighbors meters by the utility off of the same transformer be affecting the Enphase M-215's? I'm suspicious of something other than this because the errors occur at random times that appear unrelated to utility pinging. Thanks, Dave David Palumbo Independent Power LLC 462 Solar Way Drive Hyde Park, VT 05655** */www.independentpowerllc.com /* Vermont Solar Partner 25 Years Experience, (802) 888-7194 ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Enphase AC Frequency Out Of Range
Dave, In multiple conversations about this with both the utility and Enphase there was concern about high inductive loads, possibly from the paper mill in the town, that turned out not to be the case. The fix Enphase developed worked, but I thought it would be worth mentioning. Daryl Dave, The problem occurs when the kWh meter sends data. I would expect any neighbors' meters on the same transformer to cause trouble. And probably neighbors that are not on the same transformer too. Kent Osterberg Blue Mountain Solar, Inc. www.bluemountainsolar.com t: 541-568-4882 On 4/15/2013 1:12 PM, Dave Palumbo wrote: I'd like to revisit a thread from early February where we were discussing Enphase microinverters going off line due to utility power quality issues when Pinging of smart meters occur. I have a system where I was told by Enphase that they applied their software fix in late March, but in this case it did work in fixing the problem of the inverters dropping for anywhere from 5 minutes to an hour a couple of times per day. The drops are not regular and now it appears that they are not connected to the pinging of the meters on my customers site as we had the utility change their schedule to only ping at midnight. We are still seeing AC Frequency Out of Range errors almost daily on our M-215 inverters. Sometimes it is for only several inverters and other times up to the whole array of 32 inverters. On my other Enphase systems have no problems. What other issues besides utility pinging of my customers smart meter could be causing the problem? Could the pinging of the neighbors meters by the utility off of the same transformer be affecting the Enphase M-215's? I'm suspicious of something other than this because the errors occur at random times that appear unrelated to utility pinging. Thanks, Dave David Palumbo Independent Power LLC 462 Solar Way Drive Hyde Park, VT 05655** */www.independentpowerllc.com /* Vermont Solar Partner 25 Years Experience, (802) 888-7194 ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Micro-inverters for 3-phase 220/127 in Mexico
Hi Larry, Enphase is supplying microinverters into Mexico and supporting the 127/220 applications. We have hundreds of installations installed at this voltage now. Feel free to contact me off-line, and I would be happy to discuss the details. On Mon, Apr 15, 2013 at 1:25 PM, Larry Crutcher, Starlight Solar Power Systems la...@starlightsolar.com wrote: Wrenches, A customer in Mexico wants to start with about 10kW PV. They have a 225 kva transformer supplying 220/127 volt 3-phase to the property. They are adding buildings/roof space in several stages over the next 4 years and want to grow the installation to 120kW of PV solar power. Manufacturer data sheets are not real clear. Who makes micro-inverters suitable for this? I know Enphase does not. Thank you, Larry Crutcher Starlight Solar Power Systems ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -- Cordially, *Nick Soleil* *Field Applications Engineer * *Enphase Energy* Mobile: (707) 321-2937 ** *Enphase Commercial Solar.* *Limitless.*http://www.enphase.com/commercial?utm_source=emailutm_medium=sigutm_campaign=Comm2012 * *http://www.enphase.com/commercial?utm_source=emailutm_medium=sigutm_campaign=Comm2012 1420 North McDowell Petaluma, CA 94954 www.enphase.com http://www.enphaseenergy.com/ P: (707) 763-4784 x7267 F: (707) 763-0784 E: nsol...@enphaseenergy.com [image: nabcep logo] Certified Solar PV Installer #03262011-300 “Don’t get me wrong: I love nuclear energy! It’s just that I prefer fusion to fission. And it just so happens that there’s an enormous fusion reactor safely banked a few million miles from us. It delivers more than we could ever use in just about 8 minutes. And it’s wireless! .” - William McDonough This email message is for the sole use of the intended recipient(s) and may contain confidential and/or privileged information. If you are not an intended recipient, you may not review, use, copy, disclose or distribute this message. If you received this message in error, please contact the sender by reply email and destroy all copies of the original message. image002.jpg___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Micro-inverters for 3-phase 220/127 in Mexico
Larry I believe that APS ( Bluefrog http://bluefrogsolar.com/aps-inverters) micro inverters can be adjusted down to 180 VAC, so they should work line to line in your application. I know that their spec sheet and manual do not indicate that, but I have installed them in adjusted for a 208 VAC and they have been sending adjusted units to Hawaii. You will probably have to contact them directly to see what can be done. Bill On Mon, Apr 15, 2013 at 1:25 PM, Larry Crutcher, Starlight Solar Power Systems la...@starlightsolar.com wrote: Wrenches, A customer in Mexico wants to start with about 10kW PV. They have a 225 kva transformer supplying 220/127 volt 3-phase to the property. They are adding buildings/roof space in several stages over the next 4 years and want to grow the installation to 120kW of PV solar power. Manufacturer data sheets are not real clear. Who makes micro-inverters suitable for this? I know Enphase does not. Thank you, Larry Crutcher Starlight Solar Power Systems ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -- Bill Hoffer P.O. Box 1823 White Salmon, WA 98672 suneng...@gmail.com bhof...@sunergyengineeringservices.com ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
