Re: [RE-wrenches] GSLC work-arounds

[jay]

HI Kevin,

Many thanks.  The PDP is the best box out there.  
Easy to work in.  Will handle 4 CC, 3 inverters.
And as many have requested it uses large Airpax breakers for the DC and QOU for 
the AC.

One question on that, what was the thinking about having to put the comm cable 
in the shielded trays?
No one else does that?

Thanks
jay
peltz power
> On Oct 12, 2016, at 5:28 PM, Kevin Pegg  wrote:
> 
> I am a big fan of the Schneider XW system, and the XW Power Distribution 
> Panel. Full disclosure - I helped design it. The original design was this 
> tiny cramped thing and all of us in the design advisory team said 'make it 
> big'. We generally go with external bypass assemblies for configurations more 
> than 2 inverters, using a more conventional manual transfer switch.
>  
> SMA deployments, when coupled with the Multi-Cluster enclosure and some sheet 
> metal trays works quite well. I've not yet used Midnite's solution for SMA 
> inverter installs.
>  
> Kevin
>  
> From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org 
> ] On Behalf Of William 
> Miller
> Sent: October-12-16 10:37 AM
> To: RE-wrenches  >
> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] GSLC work-arounds
>  
> Kevin:
>  
> I am curious, what brand would you prefer over the Radian that has wiring 
> cabinet design that is “safe and easy to work on”?
>  
> I hope everyone understands I generally like the GSLC and the Radian line.  
> The Radian BOS available is superior to that of most other brands, the Sunny 
> Island line, for example, which has no BOS at all.  With some intelligent 
> design and a few tips and tricks, the Radian can make a very nice install.
>  
> William
>  
> PS:  I am increasingly excited to try the Midnite MNDC15.  Although it has 
> the same problem with back-wired breakers, it allows one to move all PV 
> disconnects to a point adjacent to the charge controllers.  This removes the 
> last breaker froth GSLC other than the inverter breakers.
>  
> Wm
>  
> 
> Lic 773985
> millersolar.com 
> 805-438-5600
>  
> From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org 
> ] On Behalf Of Kevin Pegg
> Sent: Wednesday, October 12, 2016 10:15 AM
> To: RE-wrenches  >
> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] GSLC work-arounds
>  
> Thank you very much for sharing this. Reinforces my avoidance of the Outback 
> Radian line. Given there are other products on the market that perform the 
> same functions, with the added bonus of wiring cabinet design that is 
> actually safe and easy to work on without many hrs of re-design work, I don't 
> see any advantages to this product line.
>  
> Kevin
>  
> From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org 
> ] On Behalf Of William 
> Miller
> Sent: October-11-16 2:07 PM
> To: RE-wrenches  >
> Subject: [RE-wrenches] GSLC work-arounds
>  
> Friends:
>  
> We resolved our web authoring problem and threw together a little page to 
> illustrate some of the issues we have with the GSLC.  If anyone is 
> interested, direct your browser to: 
>  
> http://www.millersolar.com/MillerSolar/case_studies/GSLC/GSLC.html 
> 
>  
> I hope the time and effort I put into these web pages is helpful to someone 
> out there.  I always try to give back to the industry by sharing some of my 
> trade secrets.
>  
> Sincerely,
>  
> William
>  
>  
> 
> Lic 773985
> millersolar.com 
> 805-438-5600
>  
> ___
> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance
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> List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org 
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Re: [RE-wrenches] In search of an awesome PV shade structure

[Bob Maynard]

Hi Andrew,
Check with Vince at Energy Design in Eugene, OR.  He has a product called
Rain Frame.  I saw one of the installs and it was very nice.
http://www.solarenergydesign.com/rainframe/
Best Regards,
Bob Maynard

On Wed, Oct 12, 2016 at 2:51 PM, Andrew Truitt  wrote:

>
> Good afternoon wrenches!  Does anyone know of a custom fabricator who
> might be able to manufacture a shade structure that meets the following
> criteria for a project in NJ?
>
>- fully protects anything underneath from the elements, preferably
>with some type of weatherproof membrane under the array
>- incorporates a gutter (or similar) to address runoff and snow
>sloughing
>- can support ~40kW of PV in a footprint approximating a square, with
>columns at the 4 corners
>- aesthetically pleasing
>
>
> Thanks in advance!
>
>
> - Andrew
>
>
>
> "Don't get me wrong: I love nuclear energy! It's just that I prefer fusion
> to fission. And it just so happens that there's an enormous fusion reactor
> safely banked a few million miles from us. It delivers more than we could
> ever use in just about 8 minutes. And it's wireless!"
>
> ~William McDonough
>
> ___
> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance
>
> List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
>
> Change listserver email address & settings:
> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
>
> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.
> org/maillist.html
>
> List rules & etiquette:
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>
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>
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>
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Re: [RE-wrenches] PV Recombiner

[Jerry Shafer]

I spoke to midnite and they said they got a gfi 100 amp, l dont recall if
it was din tail or bolt on
Jerry

On Oct 12, 2016 12:53 PM, "Roy Butler"  wrote:

> Drake,
>
> That's funny, William and I were having that discussion earlier today
> about those old DC enclosures.
> There was no need to sign your work because you left plenty of DNA behind
> for identification..
>
> Roy Butler
> NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer®
> NYSERDA eligible PV & wind installer
> Four Winds Renewable Energy, LLC
> 8902 Route 46, Arkport, NY 14807607-324-9747  www.four-winds-energy.com
>
> Although no trees were killed in the sending of this message,
> a large number of electrons were terribly inconvenienced.
>
>
>
> On 10/12/2016 6:44 PM, Drake wrote:
>
> Right, the old Trace DC cabinets were bloody knuckle boxes for sure.
> Things have come a long way since those days, and still have a ways to go.
>
>
> At 02:36 PM 10/12/2016, you wrote:
>
> Drake:
> Â
> Your point brings to mind the evolution of the BOS cabinet:
> Â
> 1.    In the good old days of the SW inverter, the DC cabinet was all
> you got, and it was grossly inadequate.  Off-the-shelf load centers were
> the only choice for the AC side.  AC bypassing was a relatively new
> concept but it could be done.
> 2.    Prior to having an approved inverter, Outback manufactured a
> brilliant system of BOS that fit the SW, the DR and the future FX series of
> inverters (the PS series).  I believe BoB Gudgel is responsible for this
> design and it was genius.Â
> 3.    Even with improved BOS, there are the shortcomings we have been
> discussing.  There is always room for improvement and I am hoping our
> discussion drives more of that.
> Â
> I too believe that plug-on AC breakers are the superior alternative.Â
> They are cheap and readily available.  Generally two load centers are
> required, one for generator fed and one for inverter fed.  GTBB systems
> might call for a third panel: utility fed.  Bypass is the only issue that
> calls for considerations out of the ordinary for standard load center
> installations.  Most panel manufacturers provide limited interlock
> methods.  Where we need to interlock more than two breakers we fab our own
> slides.  Sure, they are not “listed†but they are a simple mechanical
> device and I am comfortable using them.
> Â
> There are some challenges to overcome when integrating specialized
> inverter equipment with standard electrical components.  For example,
> connecting standard load centers to an FX inverter is problematic because
> the FX KOs are so far from the mounting surface.  This is the part of the
> work that I enjoy immensely.  We really want to make installations that
> are reliable, efficient to install and look good.  I have a friend in the
> entertainment industry that once said, “aesthetically pleasing
> installation are more reliable…†  True words.
>
> Â
> Thanks for you input.
> Â
> William
> Â
> Â
> [image: Gradient Cap_mini]
> Lic 773985
> millersolar.com 
> 805-438-5600
> Â
> *From:* RE-wrenches [ mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
> ] *On Behalf Of *Drake
> *Sent:* Wednesday, October 12, 2016 6:36 AM
> *To:* RE-wrenches < re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org>
> *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] PV Recombiner
> Â
> DC breaker systems should be designed similar to AC bolt on breaker
> systems that are used for many commercial and industrial applications.
>
> The explanation for the fact that these don't exist has to do with the
> cost of designing and listing the equipment. There is no technical reason
> that a DC enclosure needs to be any more difficult to wire than an off the
> shelf AC box.
>
> The AC breakers in any solar enclosure should certainly be standard snap
> on breakers. Once the power has been inverted to AC, there is no reasonÂ
> to require anything other than standard code requirements.
>
> Drake Chamberlin
>
>
>
>
>
> *Athens Electric LLC OH License 44810 CO License 3773 NABCEP Certified
> Solar PV 740-448-7328 <740-448-7328> *http://athens-electric.com/
>
> At 11:31 PM 10/10/2016, you wrote:
>
> My students we just today complaining about the access to wires on the
> panel mount breakers. The lug idea with separators might be a fix. It
> definitely needs to be done differently. In class We added another inverter
> to our package and trying to install another 175A breaker was a pain. We
> have a few other DC breakers in there already. The whole cabinet is
> basically inaccessible.
>
> Jesse Dahl
>
> NABCEP PV Installation Professional
> IBEW Local 292 - Electrician
> Electrical/Solar PV Instructor - HCC
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On Oct 10, 2016, at 9:40 PM, Jerry Shafer 
> wrote:
>
>
> You might want to look at the square D QO breaker line some are dc rated
> and voltage rated and are panel mounted.
> Jerry
>
> On Oct 10, 2016 3:00 PM, 

Re: [RE-wrenches] PV Recombiner

[Roy Butler]

  
  
Drake,

That's funny, William and I were having that discussion earlier
today about those old DC enclosures.
There was no need to sign your work because you left plenty of DNA
behind for identification..
Roy Butler
NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer®
NYSERDA eligible PV & wind installer
Four Winds Renewable Energy, LLC
8902 Route 46, Arkport, NY 14807
607-324-9747  www.four-winds-energy.com

Although no trees were killed in the sending of this message, 
a large number of electrons were terribly inconvenienced.



On 10/12/2016 6:44 PM, Drake wrote:


  Right, the old Trace DC cabinets were bloody knuckle boxes for
  sure.
  Things have come a long way since those days, and still have a
  ways to
  go. 
  
  
  At 02:36 PM 10/12/2016, you wrote:
  Drake:
 
Your point brings to mind the evolution of the BOS cabinet:
 
1.    In the good old days of the SW inverter, the DC cabinet
was
all you got, and it was grossly inadequate.  Off-the-shelf load
centers were the only choice for the AC side.  AC bypassing was
a
relatively new concept but it could be done.
2.    Prior to having an approved inverter, Outback
manufactured
a brilliant system of BOS that fit the SW, the DR and the future
FX
series of inverters (the PS series).  I believe BoB Gudgel is
responsible for this design and it was genius.  
3.    Even with improved BOS, there are the shortcomings we
have
been discussing.  There is always room for improvement and I am
hoping our discussion drives more of that.
 
I too believe that plug-on AC breakers are the superior
alternative.  They are cheap and readily available. 
Generally two load centers are required, one for generator fed
and one
for inverter fed.  GTBB systems might call for a third panel:
utility fed.  Bypass is the only issue that calls for
considerations out of the ordinary for standard load center
installations.  Most panel manufacturers provide limited
interlock
methods.  Where we need to interlock more than two breakers we
fab
our own slides.  Sure, they are not “listed� but they are a
simple mechanical device and I am comfortable using them.
 
There are some challenges to overcome when integrating
specialized
inverter equipment with standard electrical components.  For
example, connecting standard load centers to an FX inverter is
problematic because the FX KOs are so far from the mounting
surface.  This is the part of the work that I enjoy
immensely.  We really want to make installations that are
reliable,
efficient to install and look good.  I have a friend in the
entertainment industry that once said, “aesthetically pleasing
installation are more reliable…â€�  True words.

 
Thanks for you input.
 
William
 
 


Lic 773985
millersolar.com
805-438-5600
 
From: RE-wrenches
[
  mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On
  Behalf Of
Drake
Sent: Wednesday, October 12, 2016 6:36 AM
To: RE-wrenches
<
  re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org>
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] PV Recombiner
 
DC breaker systems should be designed similar to AC bolt on
breaker
systems that are used for many commercial and industrial
applications.


The explanation for the fact that these don't exist has to do
with the
cost of designing and listing the equipment. There is no
technical reason
that a DC enclosure needs to be any more difficult to wire than
an off
the shelf AC box. 

The AC breakers in any solar enclosure should certainly be
standard snap
on breakers. Once the power has been inverted to AC, there is no
reason  to require anything other than standard code
requirements.


Drake Chamberlin
Athens Electric LLC
  OH License 44810
  CO License 3773
  NABCEP Certified Solar PV 
  740-448-7328
http://athens-electric.com/


At 11:31 PM 10/10/2016, you wrote:


  My students we just today complaining about the access to
wires on
the panel mount breakers. The lug idea with separators might
be a fix. It
definitely needs to be done differently. In class We added
another
inverter to our 

Re: [RE-wrenches] PV Recombiner

[Drake]

Right, the old Trace DC cabinets were bloody
knuckle boxes for sure. Things have come a long
way since those days, and still have a ways to go.


At 02:36 PM 10/12/2016, you wrote:

Drake:
Â
Your point brings to mind the evolution of the BOS cabinet:
Â
1.    In the good old days of the SW
inverter, the DC cabinet was all you got, and it
was grossly inadequate.  Off-the-shelf load
centers were the only choice for the AC
side.  AC bypassing was a relatively new concept but it could be done.
2.    Prior to having an approved inverter,
Outback manufactured a brilliant system of BOS
that fit the SW, the DR and the future FX series
of inverters (the PS series).  I believe BoB
Gudgel is responsible for this design and it was genius.Â
3.    Even with improved BOS, there are the
shortcomings we have been discussing.  There is
always room for improvement and I am hoping our discussion drives more of that.
Â
I too believe that plug-on AC breakers are the
superior alternative.  They are cheap and
readily available.  Generally two load centers
are required, one for generator fed and one for
inverter fed.  GTBB systems might call for a
third panel: utility fed.  Bypass is the only
issue that calls for considerations out of the
ordinary for standard load center
installations.  Most panel manufacturers
provide limited interlock methods.  Where we
need to interlock more than two breakers we fab
our own slides.  Sure, they are not
“listed” but they are a simple mechanical
device and I am comfortable using them.
Â
There are some challenges to overcome when
integrating specialized inverter equipment with
standard electrical components.  For example,
connecting standard load centers to an FX
inverter is problematic because the FX KOs are
so far from the mounting surface.  This is the
part of the work that I enjoy immensely.  We
really want to make installations that are
reliable, efficient to install and look
good.  I have a friend in the entertainment
industry that once said, “aesthetically
pleasing installation are more reliable…”  True words.

Â
Thanks for you input.
Â
William
Â
Â
Gradient Cap_mini

Lic 773985
millersolar.com
805-438-5600
Â
From: RE-wrenches
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Drake
Sent: Wednesday, October 12, 2016 6:36 AM
To: RE-wrenches
<re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org>
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] PV Recombiner
Â
DC breaker systems should be designed similar to
AC bolt on breaker systems that are used for
many commercial and industrial applications.

The explanation for the fact that these don't
exist has to do with the cost of designing and
listing the equipment. There is no technical
reason that a DC enclosure needs to be any more
difficult to wire than an off the shelf AC box.

The AC breakers in any solar enclosure should
certainly be standard snap on breakers. Once the
power has been inverted to AC, there is no
reason  to require anything other than standard code requirements.

Drake Chamberlin
Athens Electric LLC
OH License 44810
CO License 3773
NABCEP Certified Solar PV
740-448-7328
http://athens-electric.com/

At 11:31 PM 10/10/2016, you wrote:

My students we just today complaining about the
access to wires on the panel mount breakers. The
lug idea with separators might be a fix. It
definitely needs to be done differently. In
class We added another inverter to our package
and trying to install another 175A breaker was a
pain. We have a few other DC breakers in there
already. The whole cabinet is basically inaccessible.

Jesse Dahl

NABCEP PV Installation Professional
IBEW Local 292 - Electrician
Electrical/Solar PV Instructor - HCC

Sent from my iPhone

On Oct 10, 2016, at 9:40 PM, Jerry Shafer
<jerrysgarag...@gmail.com > wrote:


You might want to look at the square D QO
breaker line some are dc rated and voltage rated and are panel mounted.
Jerry

On Oct 10, 2016 3:00 PM, "jay"
<jay.pe...@gmail.com> wrote:
I†ll chime in here.<
Yes the GSLC is a piece of junk.Â
However it is UL listed for the job. And while
you could put together something that would work
with Airpax breakers together, but it wouldn’t be UL.

What I do is to swap out all the wires to Arctic
ultra flex.  This allows much better movement
of the wires with significantly less stress on
the terminals.   And if you want to not attach
wires to the back of the breakers then you can
and I’ve seen outback do it,it, install lay
in lugs facing outwards so you can use a
screwdriver or allen key on them.  Allows for
installation and removal of wire without removal
of the breaker or the plate/breakers.  With
thimbles of course. And I can’t find them but
I know they make them, shielields that fit
between each breaker so the lay in lugs are insulated.
jay
peltz power



On Oct 10, 2016, at 4:40 PM, William 

[RE-wrenches] In search of an awesome PV shade structure

[Andrew Truitt]

Good afternoon wrenches!  Does anyone know of a custom fabricator who might
be able to manufacture a shade structure that meets the following criteria
for a project in NJ?

   - fully protects anything underneath from the elements, preferably with
   some type of weatherproof membrane under the array
   - incorporates a gutter (or similar) to address runoff and snow sloughing
   - can support ~40kW of PV in a footprint approximating a square, with
   columns at the 4 corners
   - aesthetically pleasing


Thanks in advance!


- Andrew



"Don't get me wrong: I love nuclear energy! It's just that I prefer fusion
to fission. And it just so happens that there's an enormous fusion reactor
safely banked a few million miles from us. It delivers more than we could
ever use in just about 8 minutes. And it's wireless!"

~William McDonough
___
List sponsored by Redwood Alliance

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Re: [RE-wrenches] PV Recombiner

[RE Ellison]

I think the designer was Robin Gudgel for the BOS gear
Bob Gudgel is the genius behind the MX and Classic and other electronics but my 
memory could be incorrect

From my point of view they both qualify as geniuses !

Bob Ellison

> On Oct 12, 2016, at 2:36 PM, William Miller  wrote:
> 
> Drake:
>  
> Your point brings to mind the evolution of the BOS cabinet:
>  
> 1.In the good old days of the SW inverter, the DC cabinet was all you 
> got, and it was grossly inadequate.  Off-the-shelf load centers were the only 
> choice for the AC side.  AC bypassing was a relatively new concept but it 
> could be done.
> 2.Prior to having an approved inverter, Outback manufactured a brilliant 
> system of BOS that fit the SW, the DR and the future FX series of inverters 
> (the PS series).  I believe BoB Gudgel is responsible for this design and it 
> was genius. 
> 3.Even with improved BOS, there are the shortcomings we have been 
> discussing.  There is always room for improvement and I am hoping our 
> discussion drives more of that.
>  
> I too believe that plug-on AC breakers are the superior alternative.  They 
> are cheap and readily available.  Generally two load centers are required, 
> one for generator fed and one for inverter fed.  GTBB systems might call for 
> a third panel: utility fed.  Bypass is the only issue that calls for 
> considerations out of the ordinary for standard load center installations.  
> Most panel manufacturers provide limited interlock methods.  Where we need to 
> interlock more than two breakers we fab our own slides.  Sure, they are not 
> “listed” but they are a simple mechanical device and I am comfortable using 
> them.
>  
> There are some challenges to overcome when integrating specialized inverter 
> equipment with standard electrical components.  For example, connecting 
> standard load centers to an FX inverter is problematic because the FX KOs are 
> so far from the mounting surface.  This is the part of the work that I enjoy 
> immensely.  We really want to make installations that are reliable, efficient 
> to install and look good.  I have a friend in the entertainment industry that 
> once said, “aesthetically pleasing installation are more reliable…”  True 
> words.
>  
> Thanks for you input.
>  
> William
>  
>  
> 
> Lic 773985
> millersolar.com
> 805-438-5600
>  
> From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On 
> Behalf Of Drake
> Sent: Wednesday, October 12, 2016 6:36 AM
> To: RE-wrenches 
> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] PV Recombiner
>  
> DC breaker systems should be designed similar to AC bolt on breaker systems 
> that are used for many commercial and industrial applications. 
> 
> The explanation for the fact that these don't exist has to do with the cost 
> of designing and listing the equipment. There is no technical reason that a 
> DC enclosure needs to be any more difficult to wire than an off the shelf AC 
> box. 
> 
> The AC breakers in any solar enclosure should certainly be standard snap on 
> breakers. Once the power has been inverted to AC, there is no reason  to 
> require anything other than standard code requirements. 
> 
> Drake Chamberlin
> Athens Electric LLC
> OH License 44810
> CO License 3773
> NABCEP Certified Solar PV 
> 740-448-7328
> http://athens-electric.com/ 
> 
> At 11:31 PM 10/10/2016, you wrote:
> 
> My students we just today complaining about the access to wires on the panel 
> mount breakers. The lug idea with separators might be a fix. It definitely 
> needs to be done differently. In class We added another inverter to our 
> package and trying to install another 175A breaker was a pain. We have a few 
> other DC breakers in there already. The whole cabinet is basically 
> inaccessible. 
> 
> Jesse Dahl
> 
> NABCEP PV Installation Professional
> IBEW Local 292 - Electrician 
> Electrical/Solar PV Instructor - HCC
> 
> Sent from my iPhone
> 
> On Oct 10, 2016, at 9:40 PM, Jerry Shafer  wrote:
> 
> 
> You might want to look at the square D QO breaker line some are dc rated and 
> voltage rated and are panel mounted.
> Jerry
> 
> On Oct 10, 2016 3:00 PM, "jay"  wrote:
> I†ll chime in here.
> 
> Yes the GSLC is a piece of junk. 
> However it is UL listed for the job. And while you could put together 
> something that would work with Airpax breakers together, but it wouldn’t be 
> UL.
> 
> What I do is to swap out all the wires to Arctic ultra flex.  This allows 
> much better movement of the wires with significantly less stress on the 
> terminals.   And if you want to not attach wires to the back of the breakers 
> then you can and I’ve seen outback do it, install lay in lugs facing 
> outwards so you can use a screwdriver or allen key on them.  Allows for 
> installation and removal of wire without removal of the breaker or the 
> plate/breakers.  With thimbles of course. And I 

Re: [RE-wrenches] GSLC work-arounds

[jay]

HI William,

The SI does indeed have a BOS.  Made by midnite solar which worked with SMA to 
produce it.

Jay
Peltz Power
> On Oct 12, 2016, at 10:36 AM, William Miller  wrote:
> 
> Kevin:
>  
> I am curious, what brand would you prefer over the Radian that has wiring 
> cabinet design that is “safe and easy to work on”?
>  
> I hope everyone understands I generally like the GSLC and the Radian line.  
> The Radian BOS available is superior to that of most other brands, the Sunny 
> Island line, for example, which has no BOS at all.  With some intelligent 
> design and a few tips and tricks, the Radian can make a very nice install.
>  
> William
>  
> PS:  I am increasingly excited to try the Midnite MNDC15.  Although it has 
> the same problem with back-wired breakers, it allows one to move all PV 
> disconnects to a point adjacent to the charge controllers.  This removes the 
> last breaker froth GSLC other than the inverter breakers.
>  
> Wm
>  
> 
> Lic 773985
> millersolar.com 
> 805-438-5600
>  
> From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org 
> ] On Behalf Of Kevin Pegg
> Sent: Wednesday, October 12, 2016 10:15 AM
> To: RE-wrenches  >
> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] GSLC work-arounds
>  
> Thank you very much for sharing this. Reinforces my avoidance of the Outback 
> Radian line. Given there are other products on the market that perform the 
> same functions, with the added bonus of wiring cabinet design that is 
> actually safe and easy to work on without many hrs of re-design work, I don't 
> see any advantages to this product line.
>  
> Kevin
>  
> From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org 
> ] On Behalf Of William 
> Miller
> Sent: October-11-16 2:07 PM
> To: RE-wrenches  >
> Subject: [RE-wrenches] GSLC work-arounds
>  
> Friends:
>  
> We resolved our web authoring problem and threw together a little page to 
> illustrate some of the issues we have with the GSLC.  If anyone is 
> interested, direct your browser to: 
>  
> http://www.millersolar.com/MillerSolar/case_studies/GSLC/GSLC.html 
> 
>  
> I hope the time and effort I put into these web pages is helpful to someone 
> out there.  I always try to give back to the industry by sharing some of my 
> trade secrets.
>  
> Sincerely,
>  
> William
>  
>  
> 
> Lic 773985
> millersolar.com 
> 805-438-5600
>  
> ___
> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance
> 
> List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org 
> 
> 
> Change listserver email address & settings:
> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org 
> 
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> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html 
> 
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Re: [RE-wrenches] PV Recombiner

[William Miller]

Drake:



Your point brings to mind the evolution of the BOS cabinet:



1.In the good old days of the SW inverter, the DC cabinet was all you
got, and it was grossly inadequate.  Off-the-shelf load centers were the
only choice for the AC side.  AC bypassing was a relatively new concept but
it could be done.

2.Prior to having an approved inverter, Outback manufactured a
brilliant system of BOS that fit the SW, the DR and the future FX series of
inverters (the PS series).  I believe BoB Gudgel is responsible for this
design and it was genius.

3.Even with improved BOS, there are the shortcomings we have been
discussing.  There is always room for improvement and I am hoping our
discussion drives more of that.



I too believe that plug-on AC breakers are the superior alternative.  They
are cheap and readily available.  Generally two load centers are required,
one for generator fed and one for inverter fed.  GTBB systems might call
for a third panel: utility fed.  Bypass is the only issue that calls for
considerations out of the ordinary for standard load center installations.
Most panel manufacturers provide limited interlock methods.  Where we need
to interlock more than two breakers we fab our own slides.  Sure, they are
not “listed” but they are a simple mechanical device and I am comfortable
using them.



There are some challenges to overcome when integrating specialized inverter
equipment with standard electrical components.  For example, connecting
standard load centers to an FX inverter is problematic because the FX KOs
are so far from the mounting surface.  This is the part of the work that I
enjoy immensely.  We really want to make installations that are reliable,
efficient to install and look good.  I have a friend in the entertainment
industry that once said, “aesthetically pleasing installation are more
reliable…”  True words.



Thanks for you input.



William





[image: Gradient Cap_mini]
Lic 773985
millersolar.com 
805-438-5600



*From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] *On
Behalf Of *Drake
*Sent:* Wednesday, October 12, 2016 6:36 AM
*To:* RE-wrenches 
*Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] PV Recombiner



DC breaker systems should be designed similar to AC bolt on breaker systems
that are used for many commercial and industrial applications.

The explanation for the fact that these don't exist has to do with the cost
of designing and listing the equipment. There is no technical reason that a
DC enclosure needs to be any more difficult to wire than an off the shelf
AC box.

The AC breakers in any solar enclosure should certainly be standard snap on
breakers. Once the power has been inverted to AC, there is no reason  to
require anything other than standard code requirements.

Drake Chamberlin





*Athens Electric LLCOH License 44810CO License 3773NABCEP Certified Solar
PV 740-448-7328*http://athens-electric.com/

At 11:31 PM 10/10/2016, you wrote:

My students we just today complaining about the access to wires on the
panel mount breakers. The lug idea with separators might be a fix. It
definitely needs to be done differently. In class We added another inverter
to our package and trying to install another 175A breaker was a pain. We
have a few other DC breakers in there already. The whole cabinet is
basically inaccessible.

Jesse Dahl

NABCEP PV Installation Professional
IBEW Local 292 - Electrician
Electrical/Solar PV Instructor - HCC

Sent from my iPhone

On Oct 10, 2016, at 9:40 PM, Jerry Shafer  wrote:


You might want to look at the square D QO breaker line some are dc rated
and voltage rated and are panel mounted.
Jerry

On Oct 10, 2016 3:00 PM, "jay"  wrote:

I†ll chime in here.

Yes the GSLC is a piece of junk.

However it is UL listed for the job. And while you could put together
something that would work with Airpax breakers together, but it wouldn’t
be UL.

What I do is to swap out all the wires to Arctic ultra flex.  This allows
much better movement of the wires with significantly less stress on the
terminals.   And if you want to not attach wires to the back of the
breakers then you can and I’ve seen outback do it, install lay in lugs
facing outwards so you can use a screwdriver or allen key on them.  Allows
for installation and removal of wire without removal of the breaker or the
plate/breakers.  With thimbles of course. And I can’t find them but I
know they make them, shields that fit between each breaker so the lay in
lugs are insulated.

jay

peltz power



On Oct 10, 2016, at 4:40 PM, William Miller 
wrote:

Chris:



Thank you for the reply.  I think you misunderstand me.  We always use the
GSLC cabinets.  I just don’t like the design concept that clutters the
cabinet with AC and DC breakers that are difficult to access and block
other components.  See photo below of a prewired GSLC 

Re: [RE-wrenches] GSLC work-arounds

[William Miller]

Kevin:



I am curious, what brand would you prefer over the Radian that has wiring
cabinet design that is “safe and easy to work on”?



I hope everyone understands I generally like the GSLC and the Radian line.
The Radian BOS available is superior to that of most other brands, the
Sunny Island line, for example, which has no BOS at all.  With some
intelligent design and a few tips and tricks, the Radian can make a very
nice install.



William



PS:  I am increasingly excited to try the Midnite MNDC15.  Although it has
the same problem with back-wired breakers, it allows one to move all PV
disconnects to a point adjacent to the charge controllers.  This removes
the last breaker froth GSLC other than the inverter breakers.



Wm



[image: Gradient Cap_mini]
Lic 773985
millersolar.com 
805-438-5600



*From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] *On
Behalf Of *Kevin Pegg
*Sent:* Wednesday, October 12, 2016 10:15 AM
*To:* RE-wrenches 
*Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] GSLC work-arounds



Thank you very much for sharing this. Reinforces my avoidance of the
Outback Radian line. Given there are other products on the market that
perform the same functions, with the added bonus of wiring cabinet design
that is actually safe and easy to work on without many hrs of re-design
work, I don't see any advantages to this product line.



Kevin



*From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
] *On Behalf Of *William Miller
*Sent:* October-11-16 2:07 PM
*To:* RE-wrenches 
*Subject:* [RE-wrenches] GSLC work-arounds



Friends:



We resolved our web authoring problem and threw together a little page to
illustrate some of the issues we have with the GSLC.  If anyone is
interested, direct your browser to:



http://www.millersolar.com/MillerSolar/case_studies/GSLC/GSLC.html



I hope the time and effort I put into these web pages is helpful to someone
out there.  I always try to give back to the industry by sharing some of my
trade secrets.



Sincerely,



William





[image: Gradient Cap_mini]
Lic 773985
millersolar.com 
805-438-5600
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Re: [RE-wrenches] PV Recombiner

[Drake]

DC breaker systems should be designed similar to
AC bolt on breaker systems that are used for many
commercial and industrial applications.

The explanation for the fact that these don't
exist has to do with the cost of designing and
listing the equipment. There is no technical
reason that a DC enclosure needs to be any more
difficult to wire than an off the shelf AC box.

The AC breakers in any solar enclosure should
certainly be standard snap on breakers. Once the
power has been inverted to AC, there is no
reason  to require anything other than standard code requirements.

Drake Chamberlin
Athens Electric LLC
OH License 44810
CO License 3773
NABCEP Certified Solar PV
740-448-7328
http://athens-electric.com/

At 11:31 PM 10/10/2016, you wrote:

My students we just today complaining about the
access to wires on the panel mount breakers. The
lug idea with separators might be a fix. It
definitely needs to be done differently. In
class We added another inverter to our package
and trying to install another 175A breaker was a
pain. We have a few other DC breakers in there
already. The whole cabinet is basically inaccessible.

Jesse Dahl

NABCEP PV Installation Professional
IBEW Local 292 - Electrician
Electrical/Solar PV Instructor - HCC

Sent from my iPhone

On Oct 10, 2016, at 9:40 PM, Jerry Shafer
<jerrysgarag...@gmail.com> wrote:


You might want to look at the square D QO
breaker line some are dc rated and voltage rated and are panel mounted.
Jerry

On Oct 10, 2016 3:00 PM, "jay"
<jay.pe...@gmail.com> wrote:
I”ll chime in here.

Yes the GSLC is a piece of junk.
However it is UL listed for the job. And while
you could put together something that would
work with Airpax breakers together, but it wouldn’t be UL.

What I do is to swap out all the wires to
Arctic ultra flex.  This allows much better
movement of the wires with significantly less
stress on the terminals.   And if you want to
not attach wires to the back of the breakers
then you can and I’ve seen outback do it,
install lay in lugs facing outwards so you can
use a screwdriver or allen key on them.  Allows
for installation and removal of wire without
removal of the breaker or the
plate/breakers.  With thimbles of course. And I
can’t find them but I know they make them,
shields that fit between each breaker so the lay in lugs are insulated.

jay
peltz power



On Oct 10, 2016, at 4:40 PM, William Miller
<will...@millersolar.com> wrote:

Chris:


Thank you for the reply.  I think you
misunderstand me.  We always use the GSLC
cabinets.  I just don’t like the design
concept that clutters the cabinet with AC and
DC breakers that are difficult to access and
block other components.  See photo below of a
prewired GSLC Cabinet we were asked to work in.  Not a good scenario.


We have created an installation standard using
the GSLC that minimizes the problems inherent
with the design.  We run all AC leads to
adjacent load centers and we try to minimize
the DC breakers in the cabinet.  It is our
goal to completely eliminate all breakers from
the removable dead-front.  I think it is
pretty self-explanatory why one would not
prefer to make connections in a hard to reach location.


Our goal is to constantly improve our
installation procedures to create better,
safer and more efficient installations.


Also, I don’t need someone to instruct me on
how to make a “finished” looking install.
If you are familiar with my work you know it
is as clean as it gets.  Review my web
site.  Below is but one example of one of our installs.


And lastly, “suck it up” is not a very
complimentary phrase.  Please, let’s keep it professional.


Sincerely,


William Miller




Figure 1 Factory wired GSLC




Figure 2 Miller Solar installed GSLC..



Lic 773985
millersolar.com
805-438-5600


From: RE-wrenches
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Chris Mason
Sent: Monday, October 10, 2016 3:40 PM
To: RE-wrenches
<re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org>
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] PV Recombiner


The GSLC gives the system a nice finished
appearance that the customer will understand.
Suck it up and live with the imperfect world we function in.


On Mon, Oct 10, 2016 at 5:55 PM, William
Miller <will...@millersolar.com> wrote:

Friends:


I am looking for a PV recombiner.  I need to
accept the outputs from 3 remote PV
Combiners, send those outputs through GFP
circuit breakers, into charge controllers,
back thorough breaker, into a bus bar,
through a main breaker and onto a large battery bank.


I am using 2 Outback Radian inverters, but I
refuse to install DC breakers on their
dead-front because wiring to studs facing
away from the front is an inferior
design.  Furthermore, I see no need to run PV
circuits through the GSLC