[RE-wrenches] Amphenol h4 vs MC4

[RE Ellison]

I have a bunch of panels here to put in with an Amphenol H4 connector
Seems like I remember some issues connecting some of the other connectors to 
the MC 4's

Do these hook up with the MC 4's without any issues or do I need to find some 
of the H4 connectors to use ?

Thanks,
Bob Ellison
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Re: [RE-wrenches] KAUAI CHARITY CASE

[Dan Fink]

FLAs. Sounds like a bad candidate for NiFe.
NiFe does give you the extra DOD down to 80%, but can the inverter handle
the surge loads at such a low battery voltage? I have that issue with my
12vdc office system; I can really only go down to 50% DOD until the fridge
surge kicks the magnum inverter offline at night from LVD. Fine during
daytime of course.

Dan Fink
Adjunct Professor of Solar Energy Technology, Ecotech Institute
IREC Certified Instructor™ for:
~ PV Installation Professional
~ Small Wind Installer
Executive Director, Buckville Energy
NABCEP Registered Continuing Education Providers™
970.672.4342



On Fri, Oct 14, 2016 at 3:58 PM, Dana  wrote:

> Thanks Jay I have not used I-E batteries & This is the direct result of my
> Kauai charity case client online shopping.
>
>
>
> She was sold an undersized/over promised system: 50% of req’d PV &
> basically one days storage of T-105 style batteries. She has burned up 2
> sets of batteries and has had several of installers try to steer her to
> total replacement with a variety of systems.
>
>
>
> She has an Outback VFX3624 dual inverter system, no problems there &  ½
> the PV she needs. The equipment originally installed in a mini shed a ways
> from the house that could have been installed under a high covered porch on
> the ocean side of her house.
>
>
>
> Her health is an issue, she lives free in a house that was a gift [she got
> to build it], & there is no utility available.
>
> She is not able to afford me to fly there [ I just moved to ID & have
> started my new house here additionally]  & I have to say she has run into
> a # of opportunistic installers that think she is easy pickings.
>
>
>
> She needs 1200 watts of additional PV & 760-900 AHR @ 24 VDC of LOW TO NO
> MAINTENANCE long life battery & moving the power equipment to under a
> covered porch.
>
>
>
> Anyone with integrity free to assist?
>
>
>
> Please contact me off line for a discussion.  Thanks
>
> __
>
> Dana Orzel
>
> Great Solar Works, Inc -  NABCEP # 051112-136
>
> d...@solarwork.com  - www.solarwork.biz 
>
> *O* - 970.626.5253*F* - 970.626.4140   c *- *208.721.7003
>
> *"Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988**"  *
>
>
>
> *From:* jay [mailto:jay.pe...@gmail.com]
> *Sent:* Friday, October 14, 2016 9:32 AM
> *To:* d...@solarwork.com Orzel
> *Subject:* offsite
>
>
>
>
>
> Hi Dana,
>
>
>
> I can go into great detail about all the negatives on NiFe batteries.
>
> But if this is a charity case, I don’t know how you can even think about
> them.
>
>
>
> First off, while yes you can take them down quite deep w/o damage, but
> then you also don’t have much storage either.
>
> So I don’t agree with the logic, I feel its based on trying to sell a
> smaller than useful battery requiring more generator run time.
>
>
>
> 400 amp hr at 24v nife is $7700 plus shipping.
>
>
>
> 800 amp hr L-16’s are $2200?
>
> really good ones with 2500 cycles to 50% are $3200
>
>
>
> I sure don’t recommend them.
>
> Let me know if you want more info.
>
>
>
> jay
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Begin forwarded message:
>
>
>
> *From: *"Dana" 
>
> *Subject: [RE-wrenches] Battery Watt hours FLA VS Iron Edison Batteries*
>
> *Date: *October 14, 2016 at 6:55:43 AM PDT
>
> *To: *"'RE-wrenches'" 
>
> *Reply-To: *RE-wrenches 
>
>
>
> Good Morning All,
>
>
>
> I have a charity case client that needs 760 to 900 AHR at 24 VDC. I have
> installed HUP Solar One Batteries for 20+ years and do not have any
> experience with the Iron Edison battery. My client went to Iron Edison &
> was told that 360 AHR at 24 VDC would cover the same AHR as a 760 to 900
> AHR in FLA.  I understand you can use the IE deeper typically than a FLA.
>
>
>
> Math is math to me & how I have sized [successfully for years] Is there
> something I am missing or has my client been misinformed?
>
>
>
> __
>
> Dana Orzel
>
> Great Solar Works, Inc -  NABCEP # 051112-136
>
> d...@solarwork.com  - www.solarwork.biz 
>
> *O* - 970.626.5253*F* - 970.626.4140   c *- *208.721.7003
>
> *"Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988**"  *
>
>
>
> ___
> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance
>
> List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
>
> Change listserver email address & settings:
> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
>
> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.
> re-wrenches.org/maillist.html
>
> List rules & etiquette:
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>
> Check out or update participant bios:
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>
>
>
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> List Address: 

Re: [RE-wrenches] Battery Watt hours FLA VS Iron Edison Batteries

[Dan Fink]

I usually shoot for no more than 2-3 days autonomy time, no matter what
type of battery bank. Every off-grid home system requires a backup
generator anyway.

The only things magical in a positive way IMO about NiFe is that they don't
sulfate and therefore have a long life, can be stored for long periods of
time without charging, and that you can add more battery bank capacity
years down the road if needed.

I'm very happy with mine, but there was a learning curve and reprogramming
of chargers and controllers to NiFe's odd charge/discharge curve. They are
very different animals than lead-acid.

I am also glad I used my home office as the guinea pig for NiFe (1.5 years
now) before even trying to recommend them to a clientthey are not for
off-grid newbies (but at least the newbies wouldn't actually ruin them
unless they don't keep the electrolyte level up).

Let those folks burn through a set of golf cart batteries or a set of
L-16s, and then let's talk NiFeafter they observe and understand what's
really going on with their energy usage and energy input for awhile.

Dan Fink
Adjunct Professor of Solar Energy Technology, Ecotech Institute
IREC Certified Instructor™ for:
~ PV Installation Professional
~ Small Wind Installer
Executive Director, Buckville Energy
NABCEP Registered Continuing Education Providers™
970.672.4342



On Fri, Oct 14, 2016 at 3:36 PM, Dana  wrote:

> I recommend 4 days backup min & 5 days backup if budget allows of storage
> and Iron Edison were saying that 2 days was sufficient. To clarify - I said
> “magical” as in wondering if there was something special, I-E did not say
> this.
>
>
>
> __
>
> Dana Orzel
>
> Great Solar Works, Inc -  NABCEP # 051112-136
>
> d...@solarwork.com  - www.solarwork.biz 
>
> *O* - 970.626.5253*F* - 970.626.4140   c *- *208.721.7003
>
> *"Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988**"  *
>
>
>
> *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] *On
> Behalf Of *Dan Fink
> *Sent:* Friday, October 14, 2016 12:04 PM
> *To:* RE-wrenches
> *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Battery Watt hours FLA VS Iron Edison
> Batteries
>
>
>
> Tom; I have never seen Iron Edison saying NiFe is "magical" -- do you have
> a specific webpage on their site that says this?
>
> All batteries have advantages and disadvantages, and also myriad technical
> issues for the installer to overcome.
>
>
>
>
> Dan Fink
>
> Adjunct Professor of Solar Energy Technology, Ecotech Institute
>
> IREC Certified Instructor™ for:
>
> ~ PV Installation Professional
>
> ~ Small Wind Installer
>
> Executive Director, Buckville Energy
>
> NABCEP Registered Continuing Education Providers™
> 970.672.4342
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Fri, Oct 14, 2016 at 10:14 AM, Tom Duffy  wrote:
>
> Hi Dana
>
>
>
> Two thoughts… how many days of autonomy are they quoting?
>
>
>
> If nickel Iron were this magical how come nobody has noticed them for the
> past 100 years?
>
>
>
> Kind regards
>
>
>
> *Tom Duffy*
>
> *Senior Solar Design Engineer*
>
> [image: Solar-Biz-new-logo-800X300]
>
> *E-Mail: **t...@solar-biz.com *
>
> ***Please note my new email – You will now be able to find me at: 
> **t...@solar-biz.com
>  Please update your records so we don’t lose touch!***
>
> *Main Number: **888-826-0939 <888-826-0939>*
>
> *Panama Office: **507-836-5588 X 122 <507-836-5588%20X%20122>*
>
> *Direct Toll Free:* *888-503-6772 <888-503-6772>*
>
> *International: **575-539-2111 X 122 <575-539-2111%20X%20122>*
>
> *SKYPE Address: **thesolarbiz (e-mail first)*
>
>
>
> NOTICE: *Due to recent budget cuts, the rising cost of electricity, gas,
> and oil...plus the current state of the economythe light at the
> end of the tunnel, has been turned off… It should have been solar.*
>
>  *Confidentiality Notice*: This message including any attachments is for
> the sole use of the intended recipient and may contain confidential and
> privileged information. Any unauthorized review, use, disclosure or
> distribution is prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please
> contact the sender and delete any copies of this message.
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] *On
> Behalf Of *Dana
> *Sent:* Friday, October 14, 2016 8:56 AM
> *To:* 'RE-wrenches' 
> *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Battery Watt hours FLA VS Iron Edison Batteries
>
>
>
> Good Morning All,
>
>
>
> I have a charity case client that needs 760 to 900 AHR at 24 VDC. I have
> installed HUP Solar One Batteries for 20+ years and do not have any
> experience with the Iron Edison battery. My client went to Iron Edison &
> was told that 360 AHR at 24 VDC would cover the same AHR as a 760 to 900
> AHR in FLA.  I understand you can use the IE deeper typically than a FLA.
>
>
>
> Math is math to me & how I have 

Re: [RE-wrenches] Array/battery relationship (WAS Battery Watt hours FLA VS Iron Edison Batteries)

[Dana]

This client is on Kauai, her cloudy  winter storms average 4-5 days. She has
a generator [Honda] not an auto start, that several folks have tried to
integrate as auto start with no success. Battery maintenance is a challenge
for her, as could be expected with a pile of T-105 style batteries, etc.
I can hear folks saying "well maybe she should not be off grid."
She does not have another living option & I feel just requires a minor
upgrade & correction to a poor original install.
I suggested a set of HUP Solar Ones & the freight was huge to the islands.
 
 
 
__
Dana Orzel 
Great Solar Works, Inc -  NABCEP # 051112-136
  d...@solarwork.com  -
 www.solarwork.biz 
O - 970.626.5253F - 970.626.4140   c - 208.721.7003
"Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988"  
 
From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On
Behalf Of Allan Sindelar
Sent: Friday, October 14, 2016 3:56 PM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: [RE-wrenches] Array/battery relationship (WAS Battery Watt hours
FLA VS Iron Edison Batteries)
 
Dana (and I'm curious if others agree),
I used to work with 4-5 days of storage, back with modules were expensive
and batteries were relatively cheap. As in recent years these two have
reversed - modules are cheap and batteries are dear - my fundamental design
approach has changed. I now design around 2-3 days of storage with a larger
array, as long as there's a backup generator in the system. I size to at
least 100% of the projected winter average daily load. 

The batteries recharge more quickly, including on partly cloudy days between
storms. They spend more of their time full, thus keeping them happier and
giving them as much or more life, even with more and deeper cycling. FLAs
are easier to EQ, given the hotter charge rate. And the customer spends
less.

You used to live in SW Colorado, a similar sunny winter climate. Is it the
same in Idaho where you live now? 
Allan
 
Allan Sindelar
al...@sindelarsolar.com
NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional
NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional
New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician
Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc.
505 780-2738 cell


 
On 10/14/2016 3:36 PM, Dana wrote:
I recommend 4 days backup min & 5 days backup if budget allows of storage
and Iron Edison were saying that 2 days was sufficient. To clarify - I said
"magical" as in wondering if there was something special, I-E did not say
this.
 
__
Dana Orzel 
Great Solar Works, Inc -  NABCEP # 051112-136
  d...@solarwork.com  -
 www.solarwork.biz 
O - 970.626.5253F - 970.626.4140   c - 208.721.7003
"Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988"  
 
From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On
Behalf Of Dan Fink
Sent: Friday, October 14, 2016 12:04 PM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Battery Watt hours FLA VS Iron Edison Batteries
 
Tom; I have never seen Iron Edison saying NiFe is "magical" -- do you have a
specific webpage on their site that says this?
All batteries have advantages and disadvantages, and also myriad technical
issues for the installer to overcome. 
 


Dan Fink
Adjunct Professor of Solar Energy Technology, Ecotech Institute
IREC Certified InstructorT for: 
~ PV Installation Professional
~ Small Wind Installer
Executive Director, Buckville Energy
NABCEP Registered Continuing Education ProvidersT
  970.672.4342

 
 
On Fri, Oct 14, 2016 at 10:14 AM, Tom Duffy  wrote:
Hi Dana
 
Two thoughts. how many days of autonomy are they quoting?
 
If nickel Iron were this magical how come nobody has noticed them for the
past 100 years?
 
Kind regards
 
Tom Duffy
Senior Solar Design Engineer
Solar-Biz-new-logo-800X300
E-Mail:   t...@solar-biz.com
**Please note my new email - You will now be able to find me at:
 t...@solar-biz.com Please update your records so
we don't lose touch!**
Main Number: 888-826-0939
Panama Office: 507-836-5588 X 122  
Direct Toll Free: 888-503-6772
International: 575-539-2111 X 122  
SKYPE Address: thesolarbiz (e-mail first)
 
NOTICE: Due to recent budget cuts, the rising cost of electricity, gas, and
oil...plus the current state of the economythe light at the end
of the tunnel, has been turned off. It should have been solar.
 Confidentiality Notice: This message including any attachments is for the
sole use of the intended recipient and may contain confidential and
privileged information. Any unauthorized review, use, disclosure or
distribution is prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please
contact the sender and delete any copies of this message.
 
 
From: RE-wrenches 

[RE-wrenches] KAUAI CHARITY CASE

[Dana]

Thanks Jay I have not used I-E batteries & This is the direct result of my 
Kauai charity case client online shopping.
 
She was sold an undersized/over promised system: 50% of req’d PV & basically 
one days storage of T-105 style batteries. She has burned up 2 sets of 
batteries and has had several of installers try to steer her to total 
replacement with a variety of systems. 
 
She has an Outback VFX3624 dual inverter system, no problems there &  ½ the PV 
she needs. The equipment originally installed in a mini shed a ways from the 
house that could have been installed under a high covered porch on the ocean 
side of her house.  
 
Her health is an issue, she lives free in a house that was a gift [she got to 
build it], & there is no utility available.
She is not able to afford me to fly there [ I just moved to ID & have started 
my new house here additionally]  & I have to say she has run into a # of 
opportunistic installers that think she is easy pickings.
 
She needs 1200 watts of additional PV & 760-900 AHR @ 24 VDC of LOW TO NO 
MAINTENANCE long life battery & moving the power equipment to under a covered 
porch.
 
Anyone with integrity free to assist? 
 
Please contact me off line for a discussion.  Thanks
__
Dana Orzel 
Great Solar Works, Inc -  NABCEP # 051112-136
  d...@solarwork.com  -   
www.solarwork.biz 
O - 970.626.5253F - 970.626.4140   c - 208.721.7003
"Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988"  
 
From: jay [mailto:jay.pe...@gmail.com] 
Sent: Friday, October 14, 2016 9:32 AM
To: d...@solarwork.com Orzel
Subject: offsite
 
 
Hi Dana,
 
I can go into great detail about all the negatives on NiFe batteries.
But if this is a charity case, I don’t know how you can even think about them.
 
First off, while yes you can take them down quite deep w/o damage, but then you 
also don’t have much storage either.
So I don’t agree with the logic, I feel its based on trying to sell a smaller 
than useful battery requiring more generator run time.
 
400 amp hr at 24v nife is $7700 plus shipping.
 
800 amp hr L-16’s are $2200?
really good ones with 2500 cycles to 50% are $3200
 
I sure don’t recommend them. 
Let me know if you want more info.
 
jay
 
 



Begin forwarded message:
 
From: "Dana" 
Subject: [RE-wrenches] Battery Watt hours FLA VS Iron Edison Batteries
Date: October 14, 2016 at 6:55:43 AM PDT
To: "'RE-wrenches'" 
Reply-To: RE-wrenches 
 
Good Morning All,
 
I have a charity case client that needs 760 to 900 AHR at 24 VDC. I have 
installed HUP Solar One Batteries for 20+ years and do not have any experience 
with the Iron Edison battery. My client went to Iron Edison & was told that 360 
AHR at 24 VDC would cover the same AHR as a 760 to 900 AHR in FLA.  I 
understand you can use the IE deeper typically than a FLA.
 
Math is math to me & how I have sized [successfully for years] Is there 
something I am missing or has my client been misinformed? 
 
__
Dana Orzel
Great Solar Works, Inc -  NABCEP # 051112-136
  d...@solarwork.com  -   
www.solarwork.biz
O - 970.626.5253F - 970.626.4140   c - 208.721.7003
"Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988"  
 
___
List sponsored by Redwood Alliance

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Re: [RE-wrenches] Array/battery relationship (WAS Battery Watt hours FLA VS Iron Edison Batteries)

[Mac Lewis]

Hi Allen,

I use the 2-3 day autonomy design approach as well unless there are unusual
circumstances.  Here in western Colorado this design approach has worked
very well.  I have been met with some resistance with folks that are used
to the large 4-5 battery string designs that were common around here.
Regarding battery longevity, I think the thing that we struggle with is
making sure the batteries stay cool enough in the summer & warm enough in
the winter.  I haven't found an approach that works perfect.

It seems to me like chronic undercharging is a bigger problem than higher
currents introduced by modern array designs.

Thanks

On Fri, Oct 14, 2016 at 3:55 PM, Allan Sindelar 
wrote:

> Dana (and I'm curious if others agree),
> I used to work with 4-5 days of storage, back with modules were expensive
> and batteries were relatively cheap. As in recent years these two have
> reversed - modules are cheap and batteries are dear - my fundamental design
> approach has changed. I now design around 2-3 days of storage with a larger
> array, as long as there's a backup generator in the system. I size to at
> least 100% of the projected winter average daily load.
>
> The batteries recharge more quickly, including on partly cloudy days
> between storms. They spend more of their time full, thus keeping them
> happier and giving them as much or more life, even with more and deeper
> cycling. FLAs are easier to EQ, given the hotter charge rate. And the
> customer spends less.
>
> You used to live in SW Colorado, a similar sunny winter climate. Is it the
> same in Idaho where you live now?
> Allan
>
>
> *Allan Sindelar*
> al...@sindelarsolar.com
> NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional
> NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional
> New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician
> Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc.
> *505 780-2738 <505%20780-2738> cell*
>
>
> On 10/14/2016 3:36 PM, Dana wrote:
>
> I recommend 4 days backup min & 5 days backup if budget allows of storage
> and Iron Edison were saying that 2 days was sufficient. To clarify - I said
> “magical” as in wondering if there was something special, I-E did not say
> this.
>
>
>
> __
>
> Dana Orzel
>
> Great Solar Works, Inc -  NABCEP # 051112-136
>
> d...@solarwork.com  - www.solarwork.biz 
>
> *O* - 970.626.5253*F* - 970.626.4140   c *- *208.721.7003
>
> *"Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988**"  *
>
>
>
> *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
> ] *On Behalf Of *Dan Fink
> *Sent:* Friday, October 14, 2016 12:04 PM
> *To:* RE-wrenches
> *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Battery Watt hours FLA VS Iron Edison
> Batteries
>
>
>
> Tom; I have never seen Iron Edison saying NiFe is "magical" -- do you have
> a specific webpage on their site that says this?
>
> All batteries have advantages and disadvantages, and also myriad technical
> issues for the installer to overcome.
>
>
>
>
> Dan Fink
>
> Adjunct Professor of Solar Energy Technology, Ecotech Institute
>
> IREC Certified Instructor™ for:
>
> ~ PV Installation Professional
>
> ~ Small Wind Installer
>
> Executive Director, Buckville Energy
>
> NABCEP Registered Continuing Education Providers™
> 970.672.4342
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Fri, Oct 14, 2016 at 10:14 AM, Tom Duffy  wrote:
>
> Hi Dana
>
>
>
> Two thoughts… how many days of autonomy are they quoting?
>
>
>
> If nickel Iron were this magical how come nobody has noticed them for the
> past 100 years?
>
>
>
> Kind regards
>
>
>
> *Tom Duffy*
>
> *Senior Solar Design Engineer*
>
> [image: Solar-Biz-new-logo-800X300]
>
> *E-Mail: **t...@solar-biz.com *
>
> ***Please note my new email – You will now be able to find me at: 
> **t...@solar-biz.com
>  Please update your records so we don’t lose touch!***
>
> *Main Number: **888-826-0939 <888-826-0939>*
>
> *Panama Office: **507-836-5588 X 122 <507-836-5588%20X%20122>*
>
> *Direct Toll Free:* *888-503-6772 <888-503-6772>*
>
> *International: **575-539-2111 X 122 <575-539-2111%20X%20122>*
>
> *SKYPE Address: **thesolarbiz (e-mail first)*
>
>
>
> NOTICE: *Due to recent budget cuts, the rising cost of electricity, gas,
> and oil...plus the current state of the economythe light at the
> end of the tunnel, has been turned off… It should have been solar.*
>
>  *Confidentiality Notice*: This message including any attachments is for
> the sole use of the intended recipient and may contain confidential and
> privileged information. Any unauthorized review, use, disclosure or
> distribution is prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please
> contact the sender and delete any copies of this message.
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] *On
> Behalf Of *Dana
> *Sent:* Friday, October 14, 2016 8:56 AM

[RE-wrenches] Array/battery relationship (WAS Battery Watt hours FLA VS Iron Edison Batteries)

[Allan Sindelar]

Dana (and I'm curious if others agree),
I used to work with 4-5 days of storage, back with modules were 
expensive and batteries were relatively cheap. As in recent years these 
two have reversed - modules are cheap and batteries are dear - my 
fundamental design approach has changed. I now design around 2-3 days of 
storage with a larger array, as long as there's a backup generator in 
the system. I size to at least 100% of the projected winter average 
daily load.


The batteries recharge more quickly, including on partly cloudy days 
between storms. They spend more of their time full, thus keeping them 
happier and giving them as much or more life, even with more and deeper 
cycling. FLAs are easier to EQ, given the hotter charge rate. And the 
customer spends less.


You used to live in SW Colorado, a similar sunny winter climate. Is it 
the same in Idaho where you live now?

Allan

*Allan Sindelar*
al...@sindelarsolar.com 
NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional
NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional
New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician
Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc.
*505 780-2738 cell*

**

On 10/14/2016 3:36 PM, Dana wrote:


I recommend 4 days backup min & 5 days backup if budget allows of 
storage and Iron Edison were saying that 2 days was sufficient. To 
clarify - I said “magical” as in wondering if there was something 
special, I-E did not say this.


__

Dana Orzel

Great Solar Works, Inc - NABCEP # 051112-136**

d...@solarwork.com  - www.solarwork.biz 



*O*- 970.626.5253 *F* - 970.626.4140   c *- *208.721.7003**

*_"Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988_**_" _*

*From:*RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] 
*On Behalf Of *Dan Fink

*Sent:* Friday, October 14, 2016 12:04 PM
*To:* RE-wrenches
*Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Battery Watt hours FLA VS Iron Edison 
Batteries


Tom; I have never seen Iron Edison saying NiFe is "magical" -- do you 
have a specific webpage on their site that says this?


All batteries have advantages and disadvantages, and also myriad 
technical issues for the installer to overcome.



Dan Fink

Adjunct Professor of Solar Energy Technology, Ecotech Institute

IREC Certified Instructor™ for:

~ PV Installation Professional

~ Small Wind Installer

Executive Director, Buckville Energy

NABCEP Registered Continuing Education Providers™
970.672.4342 


On Fri, Oct 14, 2016 at 10:14 AM, Tom Duffy > wrote:


Hi Dana

Two thoughts… how many days of autonomy are they quoting?

If nickel Iron were this magical how come nobody has noticed them for 
the past 100 years?


Kind regards

*Tom Duffy*

*Senior Solar Design Engineer*

Solar-Biz-new-logo-800X300

*E-Mail: **t...@solar-biz.com *

*/**Please note my new email – You will now be able to find me at: 
/**t...@solar-biz.com /Please update your 
records so we don’t lose touch!**/*


*Main Number: **888-826-0939 *

*Panama Office: **507-836-5588 X 122 *

*Direct Toll Free:**888-503-6772 *

*International: **575-539-2111 X 122 *

*SKYPE Address: **thesolarbiz (/e-mail first/)*

**

NOTICE: /Due to recent budget cuts, the rising cost of electricity, 
gas, and oil...plus the current state of the economythe 
light at the end of the tunnel, has been turned off… It should have 
been solar./


*Confidentiality Notice*:This message including any attachments is for 
the sole use of the intended recipient and may contain confidential 
and privileged information. Any unauthorized review, use, disclosure 
or distribution is prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, 
please contact the sender and delete any copies of this message.


**

*From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org 
] *On Behalf Of *Dana

*Sent:* Friday, October 14, 2016 8:56 AM
*To:* 'RE-wrenches' >

*Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Battery Watt hours FLA VS Iron Edison Batteries

Good Morning All,

I have a charity case client that needs 760 to 900 AHR at 24 VDC. I 
have installed HUP Solar One Batteries for 20+ years and do not have 
any experience with the Iron Edison battery. My client went to Iron 
Edison & was told that 360 AHR at 24 VDC would cover the same AHR as a 
760 to 900 AHR in FLA.  I understand you can use the IE deeper 
typically than a FLA.


Math is math to me & how I have sized [successfully for years] Is 
there something I am missing or has my client been misinformed?


__

Dana Orzel

Great Solar Works, Inc -  NABCEP # 051112-136

d...@solarwork.com 

Re: [RE-wrenches] Battery Watt hours FLA VS Iron Edison Batteries

[Dana]

I recommend 4 days backup min & 5 days backup if budget allows of storage and 
Iron Edison were saying that 2 days was sufficient. To clarify - I said 
“magical” as in wondering if there was something special, I-E did not say this.
 
__
Dana Orzel 
Great Solar Works, Inc -  NABCEP # 051112-136
  d...@solarwork.com  -   
www.solarwork.biz 
O - 970.626.5253F - 970.626.4140   c - 208.721.7003
"Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988"  
 
From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf 
Of Dan Fink
Sent: Friday, October 14, 2016 12:04 PM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Battery Watt hours FLA VS Iron Edison Batteries
 
Tom; I have never seen Iron Edison saying NiFe is "magical" -- do you have a 
specific webpage on their site that says this?
All batteries have advantages and disadvantages, and also myriad technical 
issues for the installer to overcome. 
 


Dan Fink
Adjunct Professor of Solar Energy Technology, Ecotech Institute
IREC Certified Instructor™ for: 
~ PV Installation Professional
~ Small Wind Installer
Executive Director, Buckville Energy
NABCEP Registered Continuing Education Providers™
  970.672.4342

 
 
On Fri, Oct 14, 2016 at 10:14 AM, Tom Duffy  wrote:
Hi Dana
 
Two thoughts… how many days of autonomy are they quoting?
 
If nickel Iron were this magical how come nobody has noticed them for the past 
100 years?
 
Kind regards
 
Tom Duffy
Senior Solar Design Engineer
Solar-Biz-new-logo-800X300
E-Mail:   t...@solar-biz.com
**Please note my new email – You will now be able to find me at:  
 t...@solar-biz.com Please update your records so we 
don’t lose touch!**
Main Number: 888-826-0939
Panama Office: 507-836-5588 X 122  
Direct Toll Free: 888-503-6772
International: 575-539-2111 X 122  
SKYPE Address: thesolarbiz (e-mail first)
 
NOTICE: Due to recent budget cuts, the rising cost of electricity, gas, and 
oil...plus the current state of the economythe light at the end of 
the tunnel, has been turned off… It should have been solar.
 Confidentiality Notice: This message including any attachments is for the sole 
use of the intended recipient and may contain confidential and privileged 
information. Any unauthorized review, use, disclosure or distribution is 
prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender 
and delete any copies of this message.
 
 
From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf 
Of Dana
Sent: Friday, October 14, 2016 8:56 AM
To: 'RE-wrenches' 
Subject: [RE-wrenches] Battery Watt hours FLA VS Iron Edison Batteries
 
Good Morning All,
 
I have a charity case client that needs 760 to 900 AHR at 24 VDC. I have 
installed HUP Solar One Batteries for 20+ years and do not have any experience 
with the Iron Edison battery. My client went to Iron Edison & was told that 360 
AHR at 24 VDC would cover the same AHR as a 760 to 900 AHR in FLA.  I 
understand you can use the IE deeper typically than a FLA.
 
Math is math to me & how I have sized [successfully for years] Is there 
something I am missing or has my client been misinformed? 
 
__
Dana Orzel 
Great Solar Works, Inc -  NABCEP # 051112-136
  d...@solarwork.com  -   
www.solarwork.biz 
O - 970.626.5253F - 970.626.4140   c - 208.721.7003
"Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988"  
 

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[RE-wrenches] Lithium battery systems

[Starlight Solar Power Systems]

Hi Chris,

I am in our 3rd year of designing and selling Lithium Iron Manganese Phosphate 
(LFMP) battery systems for our mobile, boat and off grid customers. There is no 
mystery to using Lithium Iron type batteries with most modern 
inverter/chargers, although some manufacturers disagree. Our LFMP batteries 
work with any charger that has programmable absorb and float voltage and has 
adjustable absorb timers down to 5 minutes. Temperature compensation is not 
used. At my Montana home, I have a the Outback GS8048 for powering my shop 
building, home office and to backup loads in the house.

I have looked at many other batteries being marketed but none of the EMS 
systems or designs have the features and protection that I deem necessary. Too 
much to write about here but buyer do your research. A customer will not be 
happy if their battery often shuts down.

Larry Crutcher
Starlight Solar Power Systems




On Oct 14, 2016, at 9:42 AM, Chris Mason > wrote:

I'm curious to see if anyone is finding Lithium battery systems available that 
will be suitable for an Outback Radian based system. Let me know what is out 
there please.

-- 
Chris Mason
NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™
Solar Design Engineer
Generac Generators Industrial technician

www.cometsolar.com 
264.235.5670
869.662.5670
Skype: netconcepts




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Re: [RE-wrenches] Battery Watt hours FLA VS Iron Edison Batteries

[Dan Fink]

Tom; I have never seen Iron Edison saying NiFe is "magical" -- do you have
a specific webpage on their site that says this?
All batteries have advantages and disadvantages, and also myriad technical
issues for the installer to overcome.


Dan Fink
Adjunct Professor of Solar Energy Technology, Ecotech Institute
IREC Certified Instructor™ for:
~ PV Installation Professional
~ Small Wind Installer
Executive Director, Buckville Energy
NABCEP Registered Continuing Education Providers™
970.672.4342



On Fri, Oct 14, 2016 at 10:14 AM, Tom Duffy  wrote:

> Hi Dana
>
>
>
> Two thoughts… how many days of autonomy are they quoting?
>
>
>
> If nickel Iron were this magical how come nobody has noticed them for the
> past 100 years?
>
>
>
> Kind regards
>
>
>
> *Tom Duffy*
>
> *Senior Solar Design Engineer*
>
> [image: Solar-Biz-new-logo-800X300]
>
> *E-Mail: **t...@solar-biz.com *
>
> ***Please note my new email – You will now be able to find me at: 
> **t...@solar-biz.com
>  Please update your records so we don’t lose touch!***
>
> *Main Number: **888-826-0939 <888-826-0939>*
>
> *Panama Office: **507-836-5588 X 122 <507-836-5588%20X%20122>*
>
> *Direct Toll Free:* *888-503-6772 <888-503-6772>*
>
> *International: **575-539-2111 X 122 <575-539-2111%20X%20122>*
>
> *SKYPE Address: **thesolarbiz (e-mail first)*
>
>
>
> NOTICE: *Due to recent budget cuts, the rising cost of electricity, gas,
> and oil...plus the current state of the economythe light at the
> end of the tunnel, has been turned off… It should have been solar.*
>
>  *Confidentiality Notice*: This message including any attachments is for
> the sole use of the intended recipient and may contain confidential and
> privileged information. Any unauthorized review, use, disclosure or
> distribution is prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please
> contact the sender and delete any copies of this message.
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] *On
> Behalf Of *Dana
> *Sent:* Friday, October 14, 2016 8:56 AM
> *To:* 'RE-wrenches' 
> *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Battery Watt hours FLA VS Iron Edison Batteries
>
>
>
> Good Morning All,
>
>
>
> I have a charity case client that needs 760 to 900 AHR at 24 VDC. I have
> installed HUP Solar One Batteries for 20+ years and do not have any
> experience with the Iron Edison battery. My client went to Iron Edison &
> was told that 360 AHR at 24 VDC would cover the same AHR as a 760 to 900
> AHR in FLA.  I understand you can use the IE deeper typically than a FLA.
>
>
>
> Math is math to me & how I have sized [successfully for years] Is there
> something I am missing or has my client been misinformed?
>
>
>
> __
>
> Dana Orzel
>
> Great Solar Works, Inc -  NABCEP # 051112-136
>
> d...@solarwork.com  - www.solarwork.biz 
>
> *O* - 970.626.5253*F* - 970.626.4140   c *- *208.721.7003
>
> *"Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988**"  *
>
>
>
> ___
> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance
>
> List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
>
> Change listserver email address & settings:
> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Battery Watt hours FLA VS Iron Edison Batteries

[Dan Fink]

Tom, Dana -- I'm quite happy with the nickel iron battery bank that runs my
office. But you as the installer have to deal with the odd charge /
discharge curves and program the equipment to work with that. Just like any
other battery technology that is not lead-acid.

Dan Fink
Adjunct Professor of Solar Energy Technology, Ecotech Institute
IREC Certified Instructor™ for:
~ PV Installation Professional
~ Small Wind Installer
Executive Director, Buckville Energy
NABCEP Registered Continuing Education Providers™
970.672.4342



On Fri, Oct 14, 2016 at 10:14 AM, Tom Duffy  wrote:

> Hi Dana
>
>
>
> Two thoughts… how many days of autonomy are they quoting?
>
>
>
> If nickel Iron were this magical how come nobody has noticed them for the
> past 100 years?
>
>
>
> Kind regards
>
>
>
> *Tom Duffy*
>
> *Senior Solar Design Engineer*
>
> [image: Solar-Biz-new-logo-800X300]
>
> *E-Mail: **t...@solar-biz.com *
>
> ***Please note my new email – You will now be able to find me at: 
> **t...@solar-biz.com
>  Please update your records so we don’t lose touch!***
>
> *Main Number: **888-826-0939 <888-826-0939>*
>
> *Panama Office: **507-836-5588 X 122 <507-836-5588%20X%20122>*
>
> *Direct Toll Free:* *888-503-6772 <888-503-6772>*
>
> *International: **575-539-2111 X 122 <575-539-2111%20X%20122>*
>
> *SKYPE Address: **thesolarbiz (e-mail first)*
>
>
>
> NOTICE: *Due to recent budget cuts, the rising cost of electricity, gas,
> and oil...plus the current state of the economythe light at the
> end of the tunnel, has been turned off… It should have been solar.*
>
>  *Confidentiality Notice*: This message including any attachments is for
> the sole use of the intended recipient and may contain confidential and
> privileged information. Any unauthorized review, use, disclosure or
> distribution is prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please
> contact the sender and delete any copies of this message.
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] *On
> Behalf Of *Dana
> *Sent:* Friday, October 14, 2016 8:56 AM
> *To:* 'RE-wrenches' 
> *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Battery Watt hours FLA VS Iron Edison Batteries
>
>
>
> Good Morning All,
>
>
>
> I have a charity case client that needs 760 to 900 AHR at 24 VDC. I have
> installed HUP Solar One Batteries for 20+ years and do not have any
> experience with the Iron Edison battery. My client went to Iron Edison &
> was told that 360 AHR at 24 VDC would cover the same AHR as a 760 to 900
> AHR in FLA.  I understand you can use the IE deeper typically than a FLA.
>
>
>
> Math is math to me & how I have sized [successfully for years] Is there
> something I am missing or has my client been misinformed?
>
>
>
> __
>
> Dana Orzel
>
> Great Solar Works, Inc -  NABCEP # 051112-136
>
> d...@solarwork.com  - www.solarwork.biz 
>
> *O* - 970.626.5253*F* - 970.626.4140   c *- *208.721.7003
>
> *"Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988**"  *
>
>
>
> ___
> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance
>
> List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
>
> Change listserver email address & settings:
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Lithium battery systems

[Dan Fink]

Check with Iron Edison in Denver about their LiFePo batteries. The BMS is
built in. They support Radian.
https://ironedison.com/48-volt-lithium-battery-for-solar


Dan Fink
Adjunct Professor of Solar Energy Technology, Ecotech Institute
IREC Certified Instructor™ for:
~ PV Installation Professional
~ Small Wind Installer
Executive Director, Buckville Energy
NABCEP Registered Continuing Education Providers™
970.672.4342



On Fri, Oct 14, 2016 at 9:42 AM, Chris Mason 
wrote:

> I'm curious to see if anyone is finding Lithium battery systems available
> that will be suitable for an Outback Radian based system. Let me know what
> is out there please.
>
> --
> Chris Mason
> NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™
> Solar Design Engineer
> Generac Generators Industrial technician
>
> www.cometsolar.com 
> 264.235.5670
> 869.662.5670
> Skype: netconcepts
>
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Battery Watt hours FLA VS Iron Edison Batteries

[Tom Duffy]

Hi Dana

Two thoughts... how many days of autonomy are they quoting?

If nickel Iron were this magical how come nobody has noticed them for the past 
100 years?

Kind regards

Tom Duffy
Senior Solar Design Engineer
[Solar-Biz-new-logo-800X300]
E-Mail: t...@solar-biz.com
**Please note my new email - You will now be able to find me at: 
t...@solar-biz.com Please update your records so we 
don't lose touch!**
Main Number: 888-826-0939
Panama Office: 507-836-5588 X 122
Direct Toll Free: 888-503-6772
International: 575-539-2111 X 122
SKYPE Address: thesolarbiz (e-mail first)

NOTICE: Due to recent budget cuts, the rising cost of electricity, gas, and 
oil...plus the current state of the economythe light at the end of 
the tunnel, has been turned off... It should have been solar.
 Confidentiality Notice: This message including any attachments is for the sole 
use of the intended recipient and may contain confidential and privileged 
information. Any unauthorized review, use, disclosure or distribution is 
prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender 
and delete any copies of this message.


From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf 
Of Dana
Sent: Friday, October 14, 2016 8:56 AM
To: 'RE-wrenches' 
Subject: [RE-wrenches] Battery Watt hours FLA VS Iron Edison Batteries

Good Morning All,

I have a charity case client that needs 760 to 900 AHR at 24 VDC. I have 
installed HUP Solar One Batteries for 20+ years and do not have any experience 
with the Iron Edison battery. My client went to Iron Edison & was told that 360 
AHR at 24 VDC would cover the same AHR as a 760 to 900 AHR in FLA.  I 
understand you can use the IE deeper typically than a FLA.

Math is math to me & how I have sized [successfully for years] Is there 
something I am missing or has my client been misinformed?

__
Dana Orzel
Great Solar Works, Inc -  NABCEP # 051112-136
d...@solarwork.com  - 
www.solarwork.biz
O - 970.626.5253F - 970.626.4140   c - 208.721.7003
"Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988"

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[RE-wrenches] Lithium battery systems

[Chris Mason]

I'm curious to see if anyone is finding Lithium battery systems available
that will be suitable for an Outback Radian based system. Let me know what
is out there please.

-- 
Chris Mason
NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™
Solar Design Engineer
Generac Generators Industrial technician

www.cometsolar.com 
264.235.5670
869.662.5670
Skype: netconcepts
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[RE-wrenches] Battery Watt hours FLA VS Iron Edison Batteries

[Dana]

Good Morning All,
 
I have a charity case client that needs 760 to 900 AHR at 24 VDC. I have
installed HUP Solar One Batteries for 20+ years and do not have any
experience with the Iron Edison battery. My client went to Iron Edison & was
told that 360 AHR at 24 VDC would cover the same AHR as a 760 to 900 AHR in
FLA.  I understand you can use the IE deeper typically than a FLA.
 
Math is math to me & how I have sized [successfully for years] Is there
something I am missing or has my client been misinformed? 
 
__
Dana Orzel 
Great Solar Works, Inc -  NABCEP # 051112-136
  d...@solarwork.com  -
 www.solarwork.biz 
O - 970.626.5253F - 970.626.4140   c - 208.721.7003
"Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988"  
 
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Strategies for hurricane resistant solar arrays?

[Benn Kilburn]

Here is are a couple bare bones suggestion...tweak as needed...

I would avoid permanently closing in the back of the array in any way as it 
will increase heat build up and reduce efficiency. Have some pre cut materials, 
ready to go, stashed on the roof that could be attached in short time only when 
needed. 

If the glass is being "sucked out" the front of the frame and the racks and mod 
frames themselves are proving to be strong then maybe adjust your rack mounting 
strategy so the number of mods in a row is reduced so that, when hurricanes are 
forecasted, you can clamp down to the frame or rack (or otherwise attach) a 
length (or two) of 2" angle aluminum/steel or other suitable material across 
the front of the mods. The strength of the material would determine how many 
mods wide it could span. 
Line the back of the "hurricane bar" with carpet or other suitable material so 
not to scratch the glass. 


Benn Kilburn
SkyFire Energy Inc. 
780-906-7807

> On Oct 13, 2016, at 4:20 PM, Darren Anderson  wrote:
> 
> In light of Hurricane Matthew and the loss of some of our PV systems on South 
> Coast of Haiti (despite being designed for 120 - 150mph winds), I’d be 
> interested to hear of any strategies being used for making 
> hurricane-resistant solar arrays. The maximum wind speed that most 
> commercially available racking systems seem to provide is 130 – 150mph, but 
> in many cases it seems the racking survives okay anyway while the glass is 
> blown right out of the module frames. 
> 
> Are there any modules rated for higher than 2400 Pascals of wind loading 
> (which seems to be the norm)? I recall seeing a Mitsubishi module a few years 
> back that had an additional frame member running across the back of the 
> module. Would that provide extra wind load protection?
> 
> Would using small solar modules with less surface area be a useful strategy? 
> (We typically use standard 60-cell modules.)
> 
> Can some sort of wind break or shield be designed into the frame to take the 
> wind load off the solar modules themselves? (Many of our systems are on 
> tilt-frames on flat concrete roofs so that back of the array is exposed.)
> 
> Any thoughts/advice/experience in this area would be much appreciated. 
> Thanks. 
> ___
> Darren Anderson | Project Manager
> Solar Electric Light Fund | www.SELF.org
> mobile:+1-778-887-8291
> head office:   +1-202-234-7265
> skype:  darren.anderson.self
>  
> ENERGY IS A HUMAN RIGHTTM
> 
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Strategies for hurricane resistant solar arrays?

[Chris Mason]

All our installations are in the Caribbean. The glass blow out (or suck out
which is more likely) doesn't surprise me, that is the design limitation.
It doesn't matter how tough the rail is if the modules blow out.
Tilt installations are bad for hurricane zones. I keep out flat roof
installations to a lower tilt than is recommended for this reason. I also
favour parapets around the roof to protect them, so if you have some blocks
and masons around, let them add two rows of blocks to the roof line.
I suspect smaller modules are stronger, so 180W modules would be better
than 300W.
CanadianSolar have a line of 300~W modules with a bar across the back, but
it will only help with blow not suck as it is not attached to the backing.
I've looked at fitting a crossbar into the frame attached to the backing
with 5200 or similar, but the question is, how are you going to test, you
have killed the warranty, and is it worth it?
This is a tough place to install solar.

On Thu, Oct 13, 2016 at 6:20 PM, Darren Anderson  wrote:

> In light of Hurricane Matthew and the loss of some of our PV systems on
> South Coast of Haiti (despite being designed for 120 - 150mph winds), I’d
> be interested to hear of any strategies being used for making
> hurricane-resistant solar arrays. The maximum wind speed that most
> commercially available racking systems seem to provide is 130 – 150mph, but
> in many cases it seems the racking survives okay anyway while the glass is
> blown right out of the module frames.
>
> Are there any modules rated for higher than 2400 Pascals of wind loading
> (which seems to be the norm)? I recall seeing a Mitsubishi module a few
> years back that had an additional frame member running across the back of
> the module. Would that provide extra wind load protection?
>
> Would using small solar modules with less surface area be a useful
> strategy? (We typically use standard 60-cell modules.)
>
> Can some sort of wind break or shield be designed into the frame to take
> the wind load off the solar modules themselves? (Many of our systems are on
> tilt-frames on flat concrete roofs so that back of the array is exposed.)
>
> Any thoughts/advice/experience in this area would be much appreciated.
> Thanks.
> ___
>
> *Darren Anderson *| Project Manager
>
> *Solar Electric Light Fund *| www.SELF.org
>
> mobile:+1-778-887-8291
>
> head office:   +1-202-234-7265
>
> skype:  darren.anderson.self
>
>
>
> *ENERGY IS A HUMAN RIGHTTM*
>
>
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>


-- 
Chris Mason
NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™
Solar Design Engineer
Generac Generators Industrial technician

www.cometsolar.com 
264.235.5670
869.662.5670
Skype: netconcepts
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