Re: [RE-wrenches] Schneider tech support (again)

[Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar]

You should have a mobile number directly into support. I just used it last
week. If not you are going to have get one from them. If you write me off
list I will try and help you get in.. I am cc'ing Sandra also at Schneider.

Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar
"we go where powerlines don't"
http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/
e-mail offgridso...@sti.net
text 209 813 0060

On Mon, 29 Jul 2019 12:54:31 -0400, penobscotso...@midmaine.com wrote:
> Hi all,
>I have been registered as an installer for Schneider tech support for
> quite a while. I no longer have a way to contact them. The number I
> received refers me to internet support. Any help out there. I have a
> bad out of the box off grid Conext SW 2524.
> 
> Thanks for any help,
> Daryl
> 
> ___
> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance
> 
> List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
> 
> Change listserver email address & settings:
> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
> 
> List-Archive:
>
http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html
> 
> List rules & etiquette:
> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm
> 
> Check out or update participant bios:
> www.members.re-wrenches.org

-- 

___
List sponsored by Redwood Alliance

List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org

Change listserver email address & settings:
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List-Archive: 
http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html

List rules & etiquette:
www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm

Check out or update participant bios:
www.members.re-wrenches.org

Re: [RE-wrenches] Soft Start Modules for Well and Sewage Pumps?

[Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar]

This is why I use the XW! They start just about anything and they are
one 6.8KW inverter, not multiple like the Radian. I do like the radian and
use it. For large motors, XW is hard to beat. The battery needs to be at
least 800 AH for this large motor app. 
Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar
"we go
where powerlines don't"
http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [1]
e-mail
offgridso...@sti.net [2]
text 209 813 0060

On Mon, 29 Jul 2019 08:49:39
-0700, Jeff Clearwater  wrote:  Hi Chris,

 Thanks so much for the
reference. I still am at an impasse. I have an unhappy customer and want to
proceed cautiously - Tech support at Radian will only promise 1/2hp per 4
KW radian module - so only 1.5 HP for an 8048 - It's a 2 HP but as you know
HP is not a definitive determinant - field experience shows we can do more
but it depends on the situation. I asked Outback engineers if they could
work with me in taking field data like inrush etc to determine more
exactly. This particular sewage macerator has high head.

 I called the
control panel manufacturer for the sewage pump (attached) and they said
they couldn't add soft start to a single phase unit. Internet research
shows you can't do much with single phase with the standard VFD (variable
frequency drive) but there are other electronic approaches but I'm not sure
they will work with the existing control panel.

 Anyone else with
experience that might be relevant? Thanks!

 And thanks again Chris I will
make that call - Thanks!

 Jeff

 Chris Schaefer wrote on 7/29/19 8:39
AM:

  I've been following this post with great interest. I was looking at
an off-grid project a couple years back that was being run entirely by
large diesel generators and had two massive AC units where the LRA was 104
Amps. I found a company that makes what amounts to a soft start. I don't
recall the engineer/owners name but he was very knowledgeable. His number
is 813-601-0947 and web site is gen-pro.biz [3]. To finish the client never
made the switch from generator to solar so I can't say if these units work.
Hope this provides another option.   Sincerely, Christopher  

229-2083 or
Cell 585-748-1870 
5115 South Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York
14424
_www.solarandwindfx.com [4] ~ E-mail: ch...@solarandwindfx.com [5]_


Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said,
"democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are
willing to work and give to those who would not."   
  On Fri, Jul 26, 2019
at 4:15 PM Jeff Clearwater  wrote:  Hey Jerry,

 I think the issue is
capacitor start motors can't handle VFDs. but there are other approaches to
soft start - still learning. Thanks for the reference!

 Best,

 Jeff


Jerry Shafer wrote on 7/26/19 12:59 PM:

  Wrenches I have quite a few freq
drives on single phase, the controller came from ABB, the pic attached is
reference only, it was for a AC chiller grid connected not off grid but the
controller works either way  Jerry  
  On Fri, Jul 26, 2019, 12:47 PM Jeff
Clearwater  wrote:  Thanks Chris!

 Unfortunately I'm finding that unless
you build an integrated control - motor combo that can soft start like
Franklin did - the majority of single phase motors can't use soft start.
That is probably a 3-phase motor in that pump that they have an inverter
for in the controls - or they used a shaded pole or spit capacitor single
phase motor which can use soft start - at least that is what my initial
research and phone call to the pump control company has thus far
revealed.

 Apparently you can play with the voltage-amperage tradeoffs
when you have the 3 magnetic fields interaction - single phase doesn't
allow you much room to wiggle.

 I do see single phase soft-starts on the
market - still researching but that's my initial findings.

 Anyone know
differently?

 Thanks!

 Jeff

 ch...@oasismontana.com [8] wrote on 7/26/19
9:27 AM:

Here at the Oasis home/office, we have a Goulds 3 hp 240VAC soft
start pump (#18GS30, w/ Franklin motor HS09970 and #3AS30 Aquavar Solo
controller); it's been running off of my 2011 Radian GS8048 since 2016,
when I had to drill a new well (the water table is dropping) and pump from
about 300 ft. depth. I have 3500 ft. of drip irrigation, a big garden and
the usual domestic water loads. It's worked flawlessly since its inception,
and I cannot speak more highly of Goulds pumps. My first one lasted 23
years (it was a 1.5HP model).  

Best, 

Chris Daum 

Oasis Montana Inc.


406-777-4309 or 4321 

406-777-4309 fax 

www.oasismontana.com [9] 


FROM: RE-wrenches  [10] ON BEHALF OF Dana
SENT: Friday, July 26, 2019
9:34 AM
TO: 'Jeff Clearwater'  [11]; 'RE-wrenches'  [12]
SUBJECT: Re:
[RE-wrenches] Soft Start Modules for Well and Sewage Pumps?   

Yes I have
used soft starts offgrid with SW & VFX for 15+ years, in spite of doing
load evaluations  font-family: 'Century Gothic'; font-size: large;">   


Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc.  

C - 208.721.7003  

Idaho
Contractor - # 028765 Idaho PV # 028374 

NABCEP # 

Re: [RE-wrenches] Soft Start Modules for Well and Sewage Pumps?

[Jeff Clearwater]

Hey Chris and Wrenches,

So I talked to Steve at Gen Pro and he says that his soft starts are 
intended to be used for LRA conditions where there is a load against the 
shaft on start-up - although they do do some well pumps.  See below - 
still searching!


Thanks though cause he is going to have his engineers look at it.

From their website FAQ:


How do I verify SureStart is performing as stated?

To verify LRA reduction in a field installation, technicians will 
require a device that can capture inrush current and display this LRA 
value in a digital readout.  FLUKE® 375 Clamp Meter is one such tool 
that is available for field use.  Although not as accurate as an 
oscilloscope (which is required to test and rate LRA for compressors), 
this device should allow field technicians to verify SureStart 
performance when used properly.


The LED portal on the front cover of SureStart can also be used to 
verify operation.  A steady, non-flashing light indicates SureStart is 
wired and operating properly.  If the LED light is flashing, this 
indicates a "fault" condition.  Please review Installation Instructions, 
Specification Catalog, or Submittal Sets to determine the fault codes.


Can I apply SureStart to well pumps or other applications?

Although no significant testing has been done, well pump applications 
have had SureStart applied successfully. Please review the requirements 
for reciprocating/rotary compressors as they pertain to starting "under 
a load."  SureStart is designed to start direct, across-the-line motor 
starts that have ZERO load applied on the motor shaft.  If there is a 
load on the compressor or pump motor at startup, SureStart should not be 
applied.



Compressor motor RLA considerations are also necessary to verify 
potential operation.


SureStart should not be applied to "squirrel-cage" or other types of fans.

SureStart is an electrical device and should be mounted in a protected 
compartment.


In the future, we hope to publish Specifications for well pump



Best,

Jeff Clearwater
Village Power Design



Chris Schaefer wrote on 7/29/19 8:39 AM:

I've been following this post with great interest. I was looking at an 
off-grid project a couple years back that was being run entirely by 
large diesel generators and had two massive AC units where the LRA was 
104 Amps. I found a company that makes what amounts to a soft start. I 
don't recall the engineer/owners name but he was very knowledgeable. 
His number is 813-601-0947 and web site is gen-pro.biz 
. To finish the client never made the switch from 
generator to solar so I can't say if these units work. Hope this 
provides another option.


Sincerely,
Christopher

/229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870
//5115 South Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424
//www.solarandwindfx.com  ~ E-mail: 
ch...@solarandwindfx.com /


/
/

Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, 
"democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are 
willing to work and give to those who would not."



On Fri, Jul 26, 2019 at 4:15 PM Jeff Clearwater 
mailto:je...@villagepowerdesign.com>> 
wrote:


Hey Jerry,

I think the issue is capacitor start motors can't handle VFDs. 
but there are other approaches to soft start - still learning. 
Thanks for the reference!

Best,

Jeff

Jerry Shafer wrote on 7/26/19 12:59 PM:


Wrenches
I have quite a few freq drives on single phase, the controller
came from ABB, the pic attached is reference only, it was for a
AC chiller grid connected not off grid but the controller works
either way
Jerry

On Fri, Jul 26, 2019, 12:47 PM Jeff Clearwater
mailto:je...@villagepowerdesign.com>> wrote:

Thanks Chris!

Unfortunately I'm finding that unless you build an integrated
control - motor combo that can soft start like Franklin did -
the majority of single phase motors can't use soft start. 
That is probably a 3-phase motor in that pump that they have
an inverter for in the controls - or they used a shaded pole
or spit capacitor single phase motor which can use soft start
- at least that is what my initial research and phone call to
the pump control company has thus far revealed.

Apparently you can play with the voltage-amperage tradeoffs
when you have the 3 magnetic fields interaction - single
phase doesn't allow you much room to wiggle.

I do see single phase soft-starts on the market - still
researching but that's my initial findings.

Anyone know differently?

Thanks!

Jeff



ch...@oasismontana.com  wrote
on 7/26/19 9:27 AM:


Here at the Oasis home/office, we have a Goulds 3 hp 240VAC
soft start pump (#18GS30, w/ Franklin motor HS09970 and
#3AS30 

Re: [RE-wrenches] Soft Start Modules for Well and Sewage Pumps?

[Jeff Clearwater]

Hey Dave,

Okay I'm hearing you now after you said it twice! :)  So let's compare 
Radian and XW:


Radian:

Continuous - 33.3 Amps - 8000 Watts
30minute - 9 kVA - 37.5 Amps
5 Secs - 12 KVA - 50 Amps
100 mS RMS - 16.97 kVA - 70.7 AMPs
1 mS Peak - 100 Amps

XW:

Continuous -  28 Amps 6800 Watts
30 Minutes -  35 Amps 8500 Watts
5 Minutes - 45.8 Amps 11,000 Watts
60 Secs - 52 Amps - 12000 Watts
5 Secs - ?
1 Sec - ?
100 ms - ?

So I'm not seeing it from these figures - but I don't have the 5 Secs 
and smaller.  Do Schneider and Radian offer curves for this perhaps?


Anyone else want to chime in on real field experience comparisons?

Thanks!

Jeff





Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar wrote on 7/29/19 9:01 AM:

This is why I use the XW! They start just about anything and they are 
one 6.8KW inverter, not multiple like the Radian. I do like the radian 
and use it. For large motors, XW is hard to beat. The battery needs to 
be at least 800 AH for this large motor app.


*Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" 
http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridso...@sti.net 
 text 209 813 0060*


On Mon, 29 Jul 2019 08:49:39 -0700, Jeff Clearwater 
 wrote:



Hi Chris,

Thanks so much for the reference.  I still am at an impasse.  I have 
an unhappy customer and want to proceed cautiously - Tech support at 
Radian will only promise 1/2hp per 4 KW radian module - so only 1.5 
HP for an 8048 - It's a 2 HP but as  you know HP is not a definitive 
determinant - field experience shows we can do more but it depends on 
the situation.  I asked Outback engineers if they could work with me 
in taking field data like inrush etc to determine more exactly.  This 
particular sewage macerator has high head.


I called the control panel manufacturer for the sewage pump 
(attached) and they said they couldn't add soft start to a single 
phase unit.  Internet research shows you can't do much with single 
phase with the standard VFD (variable frequency drive) but there are 
other electronic approaches but I'm not sure they will work with the 
existing control panel.


Anyone else with experience that might be relevant?  Thanks!

And thanks again Chris I will make that call - Thanks!

Jeff

Chris Schaefer wrote on 7/29/19 8:39 AM:

I've been following this post with great interest. I was looking at 
an off-grid project a couple years back that was being run entirely 
by large diesel generators and had two massive AC units where the 
LRA was 104 Amps. I found a company that makes what amounts to a 
soft start. I don't recall the engineer/owners name but he was very 
knowledgeable. His number is 813-601-0947 and web site is 
gen-pro.biz . To finish the client never made 
the switch from generator to solar so I can't say if these units 
work. Hope this provides another option.

Sincerely,
Christopher

/229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870
//5115 South Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424
//www.solarandwindfx.com  ~ E-mail: 
ch...@solarandwindfx.com /


/
/

Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, 
"democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who 
are willing to work and give to those who would not."



On Fri, Jul 26, 2019 at 4:15 PM Jeff Clearwater 
mailto:je...@villagepowerdesign.com>> 
wrote:


Hey Jerry,

I think the issue is capacitor start motors can't handle VFDs. 
but there are other approaches to soft start - still learning.
Thanks for the reference!

Best,

Jeff

Jerry Shafer wrote on 7/26/19 12:59 PM:


Wrenches
I have quite a few freq drives on single phase, the controller
came from ABB, the pic attached is reference only, it was for a
AC chiller grid connected not off grid but the controller works
either way
Jerry

On Fri, Jul 26, 2019, 12:47 PM Jeff Clearwater
mailto:je...@villagepowerdesign.com>> wrote:

Thanks Chris!

Unfortunately I'm finding that unless you build an
integrated control - motor combo that can soft start like
Franklin did - the majority of single phase motors can't
use soft start.  That is probably a 3-phase motor in that
pump that they have an inverter for in the controls - or
they used a shaded pole or spit capacitor single phase
motor which can use soft start - at least that is what my
initial research and phone call to the pump control company
has thus far revealed.

Apparently you can play with the voltage-amperage tradeoffs
when you have the 3 magnetic fields interaction - single
phase doesn't allow you much room to wiggle.

I do see single phase soft-starts on the market - still
researching but that's my initial findings.

Anyone know differently?

Thanks!

Jeff



ch...@oasismontana.com 
  

[RE-wrenches] Schneider tech support (again)

[penobscotsolar]

Hi all,
   I have been registered as an installer for Schneider tech support for
quite a while. I no longer have a way to contact them. The number I
received refers me to internet support. Any help out there. I have a
bad out of the box off grid Conext SW 2524.

Thanks for any help,
Daryl

___
List sponsored by Redwood Alliance

List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org

Change listserver email address & settings:
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List-Archive: 
http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html

List rules & etiquette:
www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm

Check out or update participant bios:
www.members.re-wrenches.org

Re: [RE-wrenches] Soft Start Modules for Well and Sewage Pumps?

[Darryl Thayer]

Hi about 20 years ago we used to build a soft start,  it was a reduced
voltage starter, composed of AC capacitors and a relay.  Upon start from
pressure switch the power would flow through capacitors? And shortly there
after the relay would close after motor started to turn.  It seems to me we
also did it with large resistor ?  My memory is not the best but others may
have done same.  I do not remember the type of motor.  Also there us a hard
start kit for a PSC motor.  Modern soft starts are speed drives on 3 phase
motors.

If i remember correctly or at all, i will send more information.

On Fri, Jul 26, 2019, 9:03 AM Jeff Clearwater 
wrote:

> Hey Wrenches,
>
> Anyone have success using soft-start modules on well and sewage pumps to
> lower the surge for off-grid inverters?
>
> The baby we are trying to tame is a 2 HP 15 amp, 53 LRA Omnivore Grinder
> Pump - LSG200 series - single phase 230 Vac.
>
> Thanks!
>
> Jeff
>
>
> ~~~
> Jeff Clearwater
> Village Power Design
> linkedin 
> www.villagepowerdesign.com
> cell - 413-559-9763
> ~~~
>
> Jeff Clearwater wrote on 7/26/19 6:32 AM:
>
> Thanks Ray and Jerry,
>
> Great to hear from you both with your years of combined experience :)
>
> So yes looking at the 5 sec has me switching back to a trusty Radian - even
> then from what you are saying it may not work.
>
> And you are right Ray -  Outback is careful to rate the "overload
> capability" in KVA rather than KW due most likely to voltage sag of course.
>
> So this 53 LRA 2 HP motor - if I can only trust the 5 second (50 A) might
> not start - especially with other loads on the system?
>
> RADIAN SURGE RATINGS:
>
> Maximum Output Current
> 1 ms peak 100 Amps AC at 240 VAC, 200 Amps AC at 120 VAC
> 100 ms RMS 70.7 Amps AC at 240 VAC
>
> Overload Capability
> 100 ms surge 16.97 kVa
> 5 seconds 12 kVa
> 30 minute 9 kVa
>
> Other's experience with 2 HP sewage pump or well pump motors on a Radian?
>
> Thanks!
>
> Jeff
>
>
> Ray wrote on 7/25/19 5:48 PM:
>
> I only look at the 5 sec and 30 sec surge ratings to get an idea what an
> inverter can really do in the real world.  All those millisecond ratings/
> in rush current specs won't get a pump or motor started, and will basically
> just get you into trouble.  The reason they have those ratings in amps and
> not watts, is that the voltage craters during that 100mS surge.
>
> I can't tell you how many times we tried to start a pump, compressor, or
> large table saw, and the inverter just shut off, even though the "in rush
> current" was within the theoretical inverter capacity.  Actual Wrench list
> testimonials are much more valuable than those arcane specs.
>
> Ray Walters
> Remote Solar
> 303 505-8760
>
> On 7/25/19 5:15 PM, Jeff Clearwater wrote:
>
> Hey There Wrenches,
>
> So be advised that after a little research the SW dual stack will NOT
> double the surge ratings of a single SW.
>
> But that brings me to my second question:
>
> What inverter surge rating should one refer to when looking at maximum
> Inrush or LRA - 1ms?  100ms?  1 sec?
>
> Your engineering wisdom welcomed!
>
> Thanks,
>
> Jeff
>
>
>
> Jeff Clearwater wrote on 7/23/19 8:27 PM:
>
> Thanks for the tip!  I'll check the firmware.
>
> Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar wrote on 7/22/19 9:11 AM:
>
> Hi Jeff,
>
>
>
> I am not going to guess if this will work, it should.  I use XW's because
> they start anything I have come across.
>
> If you do this, make sure but SW's have the latest and same firmware.
> There were problems with stacked SW's early on in their development.
>
> *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar
> "we go where powerlines don't"
> http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ 
> e-mail  offgridso...@sti.net 
> text 209 813 0060*
>
> On Mon, 22 Jul 2019 07:26:07 -0700, Jeff Clearwater
>   wrote:
>
> Hey Esteemed Wrenches,
>
> So I recently built a power trailer with a single 4 KW (4048) Schneider SW
> for a client with a moderate cabin lifestyle.
>
> But he lives on a high hill and even though his 2 HP Macerator is only
> rated at 15 amps continuous that baby starts up with a whopping kick -
> probably close to or at it's 53 Amps Locked Rotor rating.
>
> The SW has the following surge capability:
>
> SW 4048 Rated @ 240 Volts:
> Continuous - 15.2 Amps 3700 Watts
> 30 Minutes - 18.3 Amps 4400 Watts
> 5 Secs - 29.2 Amps 7000 Watts
> Max (100ms?) - 41 Amps - 9840 Watts
>
> Can I be confidant that 2 stacked SWs will start this baby?
>
> Any experience with similar macerators - or simply educated guesses?
>
> Thanks!
>
> Jeff
>
> --
>
>
>
> *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar
> "we go where powerlines don't"
> http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ 
> e-mail  offgridso...@sti.net 
> text 209 813 0060*
>
>
>
>
> ___
> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance
>
> List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
>
> Change 

Re: [RE-wrenches] 100ms for Locked Rotor Amps?

[Chris Schaefer]

Given the DC voltage sag I have to wonder how a bank of lithium batteries
would react as if I understand correctly they maintain the same voltage
through out their entire range of SOC.

Christopher

On Fri, Jul 26, 2019 at 1:19 PM Ray  wrote:

> I've run a 3 Hp pump on a pair of VFX 3648s, but then the 2nd issue was DC
> voltage sag from the batteries.  We had a string of Rolls 5000s that could
> not keep the voltage high enough below 70% SOC.  Be sure to have plenty of
> battery behind this system.  Also you might look into the soft start
> controllers,  I've used some from Franklin that were a cheaper option than
> a bigger inverter.
>
> Ray Walters
> Remote Solar
> 303 505-8760
>
> On 7/26/19 7:32 AM, Jeff Clearwater wrote:
>
> Thanks Ray and Jerry,
>
> Great to hear from you both with your years of combined experience :)
>
> So yes looking at the 5 sec has me switching back to a trusty Radian - even
> then from what you are saying it may not work.
>
> And you are right Ray -  Outback is careful to rate the "overload
> capability" in KVA rather than KW due most likely to voltage sag of course.
>
> So this 53 LRA 2 HP motor - if I can only trust the 5 second (50 A) might
> not start - especially with other loads on the system?
>
> RADIAN SURGE RATINGS:
>
> Maximum Output Current
> 1 ms peak 100 Amps AC at 240 VAC, 200 Amps AC at 120 VAC
> 100 ms RMS 70.7 Amps AC at 240 VAC
>
> Overload Capability
> 100 ms surge 16.97 kVa
> 5 seconds 12 kVa
> 30 minute 9 kVa
>
> Other's experience with 2 HP sewage pump or well pump motors on a Radian?
>
> Thanks!
>
> Jeff
>
>
> Ray wrote on 7/25/19 5:48 PM:
>
> I only look at the 5 sec and 30 sec surge ratings to get an idea what an
> inverter can really do in the real world.  All those millisecond ratings/
> in rush current specs won't get a pump or motor started, and will basically
> just get you into trouble.  The reason they have those ratings in amps and
> not watts, is that the voltage craters during that 100mS surge.
>
> I can't tell you how many times we tried to start a pump, compressor, or
> large table saw, and the inverter just shut off, even though the "in rush
> current" was within the theoretical inverter capacity.  Actual Wrench list
> testimonials are much more valuable than those arcane specs.
>
> Ray Walters
> Remote Solar
> 303 505-8760
>
> On 7/25/19 5:15 PM, Jeff Clearwater wrote:
>
> Hey There Wrenches,
>
> So be advised that after a little research the SW dual stack will NOT
> double the surge ratings of a single SW.
>
> But that brings me to my second question:
>
> What inverter surge rating should one refer to when looking at maximum
> Inrush or LRA - 1ms?  100ms?  1 sec?
>
> Your engineering wisdom welcomed!
>
> Thanks,
>
> Jeff
>
>
>
> Jeff Clearwater wrote on 7/23/19 8:27 PM:
>
> Thanks for the tip!  I'll check the firmware.
>
> Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar wrote on 7/22/19 9:11 AM:
>
> Hi Jeff,
>
>
>
> I am not going to guess if this will work, it should.  I use XW's because
> they start anything I have come across.
>
> If you do this, make sure but SW's have the latest and same firmware.
> There were problems with stacked SW's early on in their development.
>
> *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar
> "we go where powerlines don't"
> http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ 
> e-mail  offgridso...@sti.net 
> text 209 813 0060*
>
> On Mon, 22 Jul 2019 07:26:07 -0700, Jeff Clearwater
>   wrote:
>
> Hey Esteemed Wrenches,
>
> So I recently built a power trailer with a single 4 KW (4048) Schneider SW
> for a client with a moderate cabin lifestyle.
>
> But he lives on a high hill and even though his 2 HP Macerator is only
> rated at 15 amps continuous that baby starts up with a whopping kick -
> probably close to or at it's 53 Amps Locked Rotor rating.
>
> The SW has the following surge capability:
>
> SW 4048 Rated @ 240 Volts:
> Continuous - 15.2 Amps 3700 Watts
> 30 Minutes - 18.3 Amps 4400 Watts
> 5 Secs - 29.2 Amps 7000 Watts
> Max (100ms?) - 41 Amps - 9840 Watts
>
> Can I be confidant that 2 stacked SWs will start this baby?
>
> Any experience with similar macerators - or simply educated guesses?
>
> Thanks!
>
> Jeff
>
> --
>
>
>
> *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar
> "we go where powerlines don't"
> http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ 
> e-mail  offgridso...@sti.net 
> text 209 813 0060*
>
>
>
>
> ___
> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance
>
> List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
>
> Change listserver email address & 
> settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
>
> List-Archive: 
> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html
>
> List rules & etiquette:www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm
>
> Check out or update participant bios:www.members.re-wrenches.org
>
>
>
> ___
> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance
>
> List Address: 

Re: [RE-wrenches] Soft Start Modules for Well and Sewage Pumps?

[Jeff Clearwater]

Hi Chris,

Thanks so much for the reference.  I still am at an impasse.  I have an 
unhappy customer and want to proceed cautiously - Tech support at Radian 
will only promise 1/2hp per 4 KW radian module - so only 1.5 HP for an 
8048 - It's a 2 HP but as  you know HP is not a definitive determinant - 
field experience shows we can do more but it depends on the situation. I 
asked Outback engineers if they could work with me in taking field data 
like inrush etc to determine more exactly.  This particular sewage 
macerator has high head.


I called the control panel manufacturer for the sewage pump (attached) 
and they said they couldn't add soft start to a single phase unit. 
Internet research shows you can't do much with single phase with the 
standard VFD (variable frequency drive) but there are other electronic 
approaches but I'm not sure they will work with the existing control panel.


Anyone else with experience that might be relevant?  Thanks!

And thanks again Chris I will make that call - Thanks!

Jeff

Chris Schaefer wrote on 7/29/19 8:39 AM:

I've been following this post with great interest. I was looking at an 
off-grid project a couple years back that was being run entirely by 
large diesel generators and had two massive AC units where the LRA was 
104 Amps. I found a company that makes what amounts to a soft start. I 
don't recall the engineer/owners name but he was very knowledgeable. 
His number is 813-601-0947 and web site is gen-pro.biz 
. To finish the client never made the switch from 
generator to solar so I can't say if these units work. Hope this 
provides another option.


Sincerely,
Christopher

/229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870
//5115 South Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424
//www.solarandwindfx.com  ~ E-mail: 
ch...@solarandwindfx.com /


/
/

Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, 
"democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are 
willing to work and give to those who would not."



On Fri, Jul 26, 2019 at 4:15 PM Jeff Clearwater 
mailto:je...@villagepowerdesign.com>> 
wrote:


Hey Jerry,

I think the issue is capacitor start motors can't handle VFDs. 
but there are other approaches to soft start - still learning. 
Thanks for the reference!

Best,

Jeff

Jerry Shafer wrote on 7/26/19 12:59 PM:


Wrenches
I have quite a few freq drives on single phase, the controller
came from ABB, the pic attached is reference only, it was for a
AC chiller grid connected not off grid but the controller works
either way
Jerry

On Fri, Jul 26, 2019, 12:47 PM Jeff Clearwater
mailto:je...@villagepowerdesign.com>> wrote:

Thanks Chris!

Unfortunately I'm finding that unless you build an integrated
control - motor combo that can soft start like Franklin did -
the majority of single phase motors can't use soft start. 
That is probably a 3-phase motor in that pump that they have
an inverter for in the controls - or they used a shaded pole
or spit capacitor single phase motor which can use soft start
- at least that is what my initial research and phone call to
the pump control company has thus far revealed.

Apparently you can play with the voltage-amperage tradeoffs
when you have the 3 magnetic fields interaction - single
phase doesn't allow you much room to wiggle.

I do see single phase soft-starts on the market - still
researching but that's my initial findings.

Anyone know differently?

Thanks!

Jeff



ch...@oasismontana.com  wrote
on 7/26/19 9:27 AM:


Here at the Oasis home/office, we have a Goulds 3 hp 240VAC
soft start pump (#18GS30, w/ Franklin motor HS09970 and
#3AS30 Aquavar Solo controller); it’s been running off of my
2011 Radian GS8048 since 2016, when I had to drill a new
well (the water table is dropping) and pump from about 300
ft. depth.I have 3500 ft. of drip irrigation, a big garden
and the usual domestic water loads.It’s worked flawlessly
since its inception, and I cannot speak more highly of
Goulds pumps.My first one lasted 23 years (it was a 1.5HP
model).

Best,

Chris Daum

Oasis Montana Inc.

406-777-4309 or 4321

406-777-4309 fax

www.oasismontana.com 

*From:*RE-wrenches

 *On
Behalf Of *Dana
*Sent:* Friday, July 26, 2019 9:34 AM
*To:* 'Jeff Clearwater' 
; 'RE-wrenches'


*Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Soft Start Modules for Well and

Re: [RE-wrenches] Soft Start Modules for Well and Sewage Pumps?

[Chris Schaefer]

I've been following this post with great interest. I was looking at an
off-grid project a couple years back that was being run entirely by large
diesel generators and had two massive AC units where the LRA was 104 Amps.
I found a company that makes what amounts to a soft start. I don't recall
the engineer/owners name but he was very knowledgeable. His number is
813-601-0947 and web site is gen-pro.biz. To finish the client never made
the switch from generator to solar so I can't say if these units work. Hope
this provides another option.

Sincerely,
Christopher


*229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 *
*5115 South Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424**www.solarandwindfx.com
 ~ E-mail: ch...@solarandwindfx.com
*


Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said,
"democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are
willing to work and give to those who would not."

On Fri, Jul 26, 2019 at 4:15 PM Jeff Clearwater <
je...@villagepowerdesign.com> wrote:

> Hey Jerry,
>
> I think the issue is capacitor start motors can't handle VFDs.  but there
> are other approaches to soft start - still learning.  Thanks for the
> reference!
>
> Best,
>
> Jeff
>
> Jerry Shafer wrote on 7/26/19 12:59 PM:
>
> Wrenches
> I have quite a few freq drives on single phase, the controller came from
> ABB, the pic attached is reference only, it was for a AC chiller grid
> connected not off grid but the controller works either way
> Jerry
>
> On Fri, Jul 26, 2019, 12:47 PM Jeff Clearwater <
> je...@villagepowerdesign.com> wrote:
>
>> Thanks Chris!
>>
>> Unfortunately I'm finding that unless you build an integrated control -
>> motor combo that can soft start like Franklin did - the majority of single
>> phase motors can't use soft start.  That is probably a 3-phase motor in
>> that pump that they have an inverter for in the controls - or they used a
>> shaded pole or spit capacitor single phase motor which can use soft start -
>> at least that is what my initial research and phone call to the pump
>> control company has thus far revealed.
>>
>> Apparently you can play with the voltage-amperage tradeoffs when you have
>> the 3 magnetic fields interaction - single phase doesn't allow you much
>> room to wiggle.
>>
>> I do see single phase soft-starts on the market - still researching but
>> that's my initial findings.
>>
>> Anyone know differently?
>>
>> Thanks!
>>
>> Jeff
>>
>>
>>
>> ch...@oasismontana.com wrote on 7/26/19 9:27 AM:
>>
>> Here at the Oasis home/office, we have a Goulds 3 hp 240VAC soft start
>> pump (#18GS30, w/ Franklin motor HS09970 and #3AS30 Aquavar Solo
>> controller); it’s been running off of my 2011 Radian GS8048 since 2016,
>> when I had to drill a new well (the water table is dropping) and pump from
>> about 300 ft. depth.  I have 3500 ft. of drip irrigation, a big garden
>> and the usual domestic water loads.  It’s worked flawlessly since its
>> inception, and I cannot speak more highly of Goulds pumps.  My first one
>> lasted 23 years (it was a 1.5HP model).
>>
>>
>>
>> Best,
>>
>>
>>
>> Chris Daum
>>
>> Oasis Montana Inc.
>>
>> 406-777-4309 or 4321
>>
>> 406-777-4309 fax
>>
>> www.oasismontana.com
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* RE-wrenches 
>>  *On Behalf Of *Dana
>> *Sent:* Friday, July 26, 2019 9:34 AM
>> *To:* 'Jeff Clearwater' 
>> ; 'RE-wrenches'
>>  
>> *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Soft Start Modules for Well and Sewage
>> Pumps?
>>
>>
>>
>> Yes I have used soft starts offgrid with SW & VFX for 15+ years, in spite
>> of doing load evaluations & others installing what ever they normally used.
>> It has been a great rescue device. Well pump, 2 dish washers, booster pump,
>> etc.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Dana Orzel  Great Solar Works, Inc.
>>
>> *C - 208.721.7003   d...@solarwork.com
>> *
>>
>> Idaho Contractor - # 028765 Idaho PV # 028374
>>
>> NABCEP # 051112-136   www.solarwork.com
>>
>> *"Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988"  *
>>
>> *P* Please consider the environment before printing this email.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* RE-wrenches  *On
>> Behalf Of *Jeff Clearwater
>> *Sent:* Friday, July 26, 2019 8:04 AM
>> *To:* RE-wrenches 
>> *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Soft Start Modules for Well and Sewage Pumps?
>>
>>
>>
>> Hey Wrenches,
>>
>> Anyone have success using soft-start modules on well and sewage pumps to
>> lower the surge for off-grid inverters?
>>
>> The baby we are trying to tame is a 2 HP 15 amp, 53 LRA Omnivore Grinder
>> Pump - LSG200 series - single phase 230 Vac.
>>
>> Thanks!
>>
>> Jeff
>>
>>
>> ~~~
>>
>> Jeff Clearwater
>> Village Power Design
>> linkedin 
>> www.villagepowerdesign.com
>> cell - 413-559-9763
>> ~~~
>>
>>
>> Jeff Clearwater wrote on 7/26/19 6:32 AM:
>>
>>
>>
>> *Thanks Ray and Jerry,Great to hear from you both with your years of
>> combined