Re: [RE-wrenches] Transmitting 15kW 3600ft Off Grid.

[Jerry Shafer]

Again, its all math, a seperate system, inverters, batteries, array will
cost more than the conduit, most likely alot more. Only you know if the
island can even be trenched so start there, this will determine if you even
have a choice. The existing system may need upgrading as it is and add that
in too. Math got to love it.

On Mon, Jan 10, 2022, 3:58 PM  wrote:

> Especially when one considers that an island off the coast of Maine is
> solid rock and ragged/jagged. Just imagine that rock-sawing!
>
> Separate system!
>
> Scot Arey
> Solar CenTex
>
> -Original Message-
> From: RE-wrenches  On Behalf
> Of Hilton Dier
> Sent: Monday, January 10, 2022 4:37 PM
> To: re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
> Subject: [RE-wrenches] Transmitting 15kW 3600ft Off Grid.
>
> I didn’t really register the distance on the first look. These days, 3,600
> feet of 3” PVC conduit is going to knock you back ~$18,000 to start, plus
> trenching and cable on top of that. I agree with prior comments that it
> would be cheaper to put in a new system.
>
> Hilton Dier III
> Renewable Energy Design
> Missisquoi River Hydro LLC
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Transmitting 15kW 3600ft Off Grid.

[scot.arey]

Especially when one considers that an island off the coast of Maine is solid 
rock and ragged/jagged. Just imagine that rock-sawing!

Separate system!

Scot Arey
Solar CenTex

-Original Message-
From: RE-wrenches  On Behalf Of 
Hilton Dier
Sent: Monday, January 10, 2022 4:37 PM
To: re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
Subject: [RE-wrenches] Transmitting 15kW 3600ft Off Grid.

I didn’t really register the distance on the first look. These days, 3,600 feet 
of 3” PVC conduit is going to knock you back ~$18,000 to start, plus trenching 
and cable on top of that. I agree with prior comments that it would be cheaper 
to put in a new system. 

Hilton Dier III
Renewable Energy Design
Missisquoi River Hydro LLC
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Transmitting 15kW 3600ft Off Grid.

[Jay]

I have a question about the high voltage transformer costs. 

I’ve never sized or costed one out. 
What does the 480v vs say a higher voltage one cost?  And if you go higher what 
does that high voltage rated wire wire cost vs 600v?

It’s an interesting question and like someone said, let’s see the costs for the 
different designs. 

I find it hard to believe that a completely new system would pencil out, but 
then you have a whole new system too vs a bunch of plastic and aluminum in the 
ground. 

Curious where this ends up 

Jay





> On Jan 10, 2022, at 1:05 PM, Tump  wrote:
> 
> Aluminum wire…….
>>> On Jan 10, 2022, at 2:53 PM, August Goers  wrote:
>>> 
>>> 3600 feet is 0.68 miles. That's a long distance. I totally agree with Ray's 
>>> suggestion that a second system is probably a better option. 
>>> 
>>> August
>>> 
>>> 
>>> On Mon, Jan 10, 2022 at 11:49 AM Tump  wrote:
 Hey this is exactly everything I was going to say. Ahh the new owner, the 
 dentist he’s a real piece of work. You got your spring vacation, on him, 
 you got paid and now you want to go back? Hummm lets see installation for 
 a MR. know it all, 500+ miles from home and you’re now going to use a 
 transformer AND all wire on an island in salt water. Wow must be some good 
 smoke. Dan YOU KNOW BETTER!
>> On Jan 10, 2022, at 8:37 AM, Pieter Huebner 
>>  wrote:
>> 
>> It sounds like you are working on an Island near Jones port Maine ( 
>> Norton Island). The site had or has a Bergey 7.5kw XL-R wind turbine, on 
>> a tilt tower which is almost impossible to tilt, a solar array on a 
>> stacked log tower, Kubota generator, flooded cell lead acid batteries 
>> and Outback Inverters. Your assessment of the system is 100% correct, 
>> bad workmanship, and little or no maintenance. The original design was 
>> poorly thought out as well. The poor workmanship was not limited to the 
>> energy system, the electrical infrastructure had issues as well. The 
>> original installer was in way over his head. I have been to that site at 
>> the bequest of the original owner to repair the wind turbine years ago.
>> My suggestion is that you evaluate the existing 
>> equipment and infrastructure, and salvage what you can then start with a 
>> fresh sheet of paper. The electrical loads need to be mapped, for 
>> example the original owner had a hot tub at the main house.
>> The site would lend itself well to a micro grid system. if you like we 
>> can have long discussions about this site and I will be happy to share 
>> what I know about it as well as share my experiences with AC and DC 
>> distribution for off grid sites.
>> Pieter
>>  
>> 
>>  
>> From: RE-wrenches  On Behalf 
>> Of Foxfire Energy
>> Sent: Monday, January 10, 2022 5:35 AM
>> To: re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
>> Subject: [RE-wrenches] Transmitting 15kW 3600ft Off Grid.
>>  
>> Hi Guys, Got a good one for you.. We were tasked to refurbish a Stand 
>> Alone (aka Off Grid) power system on a 100 acre private resort island 
>> off the New England coast a few years back.. The system has a 12kW(AC)/ 
>> 48VDC power center (@120/240VAC) with a 10kW Bergey wind turbine, 3kW of 
>> Solar and a 12kW Diesel Generator.. It currently powers two main lodges 
>> and 10 private cabins.. The system was never installed properly and had 
>> significant damage when we got there (no system ground, evidence of 
>> several lightening strikes, open/corroded connections, and poor 
>> workmanship in general)
>> The new owners want to build a third lodge at the other end of the 
>> island.. Some 3600ft away, and want to feed full power from the existing 
>> system to the new lodge.. Thing is, the new owner is pretty brainy 
>> (keeps me on my toes).. My first thought was to bump the 120/240VAC up 
>> to 480VAC and send it on like 4/0AL and back down to 120/240VAC at the 
>> new lodge (we've done it before).. The new owner wants to launder the AC 
>> to DC and back for transmission.. Says DC for transmission is the new 
>> Cats Pajamas because of the efficiency.. News to me.. Anyone have 
>> experience with DC for transmission? Again.. I'm shooting for 15kW 
>> (including 25% for continuous duty), 3600ft, 600V wire (but could go 
>> with a different wire) and a line loss under 5%. TIA db
>>  
>> ___
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>> 
>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org
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>> 

[RE-wrenches] Transmitting 15kW 3600ft Off Grid.

[Hilton Dier]

I didn’t really register the distance on the first look. These days, 3,600 feet 
of 3” PVC conduit is going to knock you back ~$18,000 to start, plus trenching 
and cable on top of that. I agree with prior comments that it would be cheaper 
to put in a new system. 

Hilton Dier III
Renewable Energy Design
Missisquoi River Hydro LLC
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Re: [RE-wrenches] PAE series surge capacity/ power factor ?

[Amos Post]

I also have a new (7 month old) PAE system with 2-4448 Inverters (stacked) that 
we are having some strange issues with.  The most troublesome issue is the new 
Rheem wall-hung LP instant water heater/boiler is throwing an Error Code 12 
which is supposedly a “Flame Failure”.  It’s a brand new installation with new 
tanks and lines and the gas guys have doubled checked everything.  We are now 
wondering if it might be related to the power supply.  The other indications 
that it could be related are flickering lights, a 12V battery charger (AC plug 
in type) that won’t work off inverter power (but will when plugged into the 
genny, and I’m seeing a little bit of wondering in the Hz on my simple Exeltech 
volt meter.  

Magnum recommended a run capacitor on the boiler circuit.  I installed that on 
Friday and still had the error code come up 4 times over the weekend.

Any thoughts?  

Best,
Amos


   Amos Post
   Integrity Energy
  W 802.763.7023
   C 802.291.2188
ienergyVT.com 
Facebook 

> On Jan 9, 2022, at 7:26 PM, Ray  wrote:
> 
> Long runs of URD direct buried?  Just a nick into the metal can corrode the 
> cable all the way through over time.  We use conduit for almost everything 
> anymore.  The savings with URD doesn't pan out, when you have to abandon the 
> line after 10 years.
> 
> Ray Walters
> Remote Solar
> 303 505-8760
> On 1/9/22 5:10 PM, Jerry Shafer wrote:
>> I would look at connections first, lug that is not as tight as it ne we do 
>> to be, a breaker failing, outlets that are either push in wires or have 
>> loose connections. Eliminate what you can before looking at the inverters
>> 
>> On Sun, Jan 9, 2022, 11:36 AM Jeremy Rodriguez > > wrote:
>> 
>>> 
>>> Hello
>>> we have a lot of PAE series magnum inverters out there.
>>> One client lately has been experiencing voltage drop and failure of PCBs in 
>>> two of his household appliances.  I know it’s common to have some dimming 
>>> of the lights when a well pump or other large load kicks on, but has anyone 
>>> ran across a solution to alleviate the problem or boost up the voltage / 
>>> condition it, in any way ?
>>> I’m not sure if this just happens with low battery voltage, or always 
>>> The inverter is located ~ 300 ft from the main electrical panel with 
>>> #2/2/2/4 URD feeders to an outdoor disco, then 8 AWG copper to the mains 
>>> panel. 
>>> 4448 PAE with one string of 6CS21P Batteries. 
>>> 
>>> 
>> Jeremy Rodriguez 
>> Solar Installation / Design Expert 
>> All Solar, Inc.
>> 1453 M St
>> Penrose Colorado 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand!
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Transmitting 15kW 3600ft Off Grid.

[Tump]

Aluminum wire…….
> On Jan 10, 2022, at 2:53 PM, August Goers  wrote:
> 
> 3600 feet is 0.68 miles. That's a long distance. I totally agree with Ray's 
> suggestion that a second system is probably a better option. 
> 
> August
> 
> 
> On Mon, Jan 10, 2022 at 11:49 AM Tump mailto:t...@swnl.net>> 
> wrote:
> Hey this is exactly everything I was going to say. Ahh the new owner, the 
> dentist he’s a real piece of work. You got your spring vacation, on him, you 
> got paid and now you want to go back? Hummm lets see installation for a MR. 
> know it all, 500+ miles from home and you’re now going to use a transformer 
> AND all wire on an island in salt water. Wow must be some good smoke. Dan YOU 
> KNOW BETTER!
>> On Jan 10, 2022, at 8:37 AM, Pieter Huebner > > wrote:
>> 
>> It sounds like you are working on an Island near Jones port Maine ( Norton 
>> Island). The site had or has a Bergey 7.5kw XL-R wind turbine, on a tilt 
>> tower which is almost impossible to tilt, a solar array on a stacked log 
>> tower, Kubota generator, flooded cell lead acid batteries and Outback 
>> Inverters. Your assessment of the system is 100% correct, bad workmanship, 
>> and little or no maintenance. The original design was poorly thought out as 
>> well. The poor workmanship was not limited to the energy system, the 
>> electrical infrastructure had issues as well. The original installer was in 
>> way over his head. I have been to that site at the bequest of the original 
>> owner to repair the wind turbine years ago.
>> My suggestion is that you evaluate the existing equipment 
>> and infrastructure, and salvage what you can then start with a fresh sheet 
>> of paper. The electrical loads need to be mapped, for example the original 
>> owner had a hot tub at the main house.
>> The site would lend itself well to a micro grid system. if you like we can 
>> have long discussions about this site and I will be happy to share what I 
>> know about it as well as share my experiences with AC and DC distribution 
>> for off grid sites.
>> Pieter
>>  
>> 
>>  
>> From: RE-wrenches > > On Behalf Of Foxfire 
>> Energy
>> Sent: Monday, January 10, 2022 5:35 AM
>> To: re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org 
>> 
>> Subject: [RE-wrenches] Transmitting 15kW 3600ft Off Grid.
>>  
>> Hi Guys, Got a good one for you.. We were tasked to refurbish a Stand Alone 
>> (aka Off Grid) power system on a 100 acre private resort island off the New 
>> England coast a few years back.. The system has a 12kW(AC)/ 48VDC power 
>> center (@120/240VAC) with a 10kW Bergey wind turbine, 3kW of Solar and a 
>> 12kW Diesel Generator.. It currently powers two main lodges and 10 private 
>> cabins.. The system was never installed properly and had significant damage 
>> when we got there (no system ground, evidence of several lightening strikes, 
>> open/corroded connections, and poor workmanship in general)
>> The new owners want to build a third lodge at the other end of the island.. 
>> Some 3600ft away, and want to feed full power from the existing system to 
>> the new lodge.. Thing is, the new owner is pretty brainy (keeps me on my 
>> toes).. My first thought was to bump the 120/240VAC up to 480VAC and send it 
>> on like 4/0AL and back down to 120/240VAC at the new lodge (we've done it 
>> before).. The new owner wants to launder the AC to DC and back for 
>> transmission.. Says DC for transmission is the new Cats Pajamas because of 
>> the efficiency.. News to me.. Anyone have experience with DC for 
>> transmission? Again.. I'm shooting for 15kW (including 25% for continuous 
>> duty), 3600ft, 600V wire (but could go with a different wire) and a line 
>> loss under 5%. TIA db
>>  
>> ___
>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance
>> 
>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org 
>> 
>> 
>> List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org 
>> 
>> 
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>> 
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>> other:
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>> Tump <>3...@gmail.com    

Re: [RE-wrenches] Transmitting 15kW 3600ft Off Grid.

[Jerry Shafer]

Transformers is the way to go boost and buck, but do a cost analysis for
wire vs transformer, go even more than the 480
Jerry

On Mon, Jan 10, 2022, 3:34 AM Foxfire Energy  wrote:

> Hi Guys, Got a good one for you.. We were tasked to refurbish a Stand
> Alone (aka Off Grid) power system on a 100 acre private resort island off
> the New England coast a few years back.. The system has a 12kW(AC)/ 48VDC
> power center (@120/240VAC) with a 10kW Bergey wind turbine, 3kW of Solar
> and a 12kW Diesel Generator.. It currently powers two main lodges and 10
> private cabins.. The system was never installed properly and had
> significant damage when we got there (no system ground, evidence of several
> lightening strikes, open/corroded connections, and poor workmanship in
> general)
> The new owners want to build a third lodge at the other end of the
> island.. Some 3600ft away, and want to feed full power from the existing
> system to the new lodge.. Thing is, the new owner is pretty brainy (keeps
> me on my toes).. My first thought was to bump the 120/240VAC up to 480VAC
> and send it on like 4/0AL and back down to 120/240VAC at the new lodge
> (we've done it before).. The new owner wants to launder the AC to DC and
> back for transmission.. Says DC for transmission is the new Cats Pajamas
> because of the efficiency.. News to me.. Anyone have experience with DC for
> transmission? Again.. I'm shooting for 15kW (including 25% for continuous
> duty), 3600ft, 600V wire (but could go with a different wire) and a line
> loss under 5%. TIA db
>
> ___
> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance
>
> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org
>
> List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
>
> Change listserver email address & settings:
> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
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> other:
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Transmitting 15kW 3600ft Off Grid.

[August Goers]

3600 feet is 0.68 miles. That's a long distance. I totally agree with Ray's
suggestion that a second system is probably a better option.

August


On Mon, Jan 10, 2022 at 11:49 AM Tump  wrote:

> Hey this is exactly everything I was going to say. Ahh the new owner, the
> dentist he’s a real piece of work. You got your spring vacation, on him,
> you got paid and now you want to go back? Hummm lets see installation for a
> MR. know it all, 500+ miles from home and you’re now going to use a
> transformer AND all wire on an island in salt water. Wow must be some good
> smoke. Dan YOU KNOW BETTER!
>
> On Jan 10, 2022, at 8:37 AM, Pieter Huebner 
> wrote:
>
> It sounds like you are working on an Island near Jones port Maine ( Norton
> Island). The site had or has a Bergey 7.5kw XL-R wind turbine, on a tilt
> tower which is almost impossible to tilt, a solar array on a stacked log
> tower, Kubota generator, flooded cell lead acid batteries and Outback
> Inverters. Your assessment of the system is 100% correct, bad workmanship,
> and little or no maintenance. The original design was poorly thought out as
> well. The poor workmanship was not limited to the energy system, the
> electrical infrastructure had issues as well. The original installer was in
> way over his head. I have been to that site at the bequest of the original
> owner to repair the wind turbine years ago.
> My suggestion is that you evaluate the existing equipment
> and infrastructure, and salvage what you can then start with a fresh sheet
> of paper. The electrical loads need to be mapped, for example the original
> owner had a hot tub at the main house.
> The site would lend itself well to a micro grid system. if you like we can
> have long discussions about this site and I will be happy to share what I
> know about it as well as share my experiences with AC and DC distribution
> for off grid sites.
> Pieter
>
> 
>
> *From:* RE-wrenches  *On
> Behalf Of *Foxfire Energy
> *Sent:* Monday, January 10, 2022 5:35 AM
> *To:* re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
> *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Transmitting 15kW 3600ft Off Grid.
>
> Hi Guys, Got a good one for you.. We were tasked to refurbish a Stand
> Alone (aka Off Grid) power system on a 100 acre private resort island off
> the New England coast a few years back.. The system has a 12kW(AC)/ 48VDC
> power center (@120/240VAC) with a 10kW Bergey wind turbine, 3kW of Solar
> and a 12kW Diesel Generator.. It currently powers two main lodges and 10
> private cabins.. The system was never installed properly and had
> significant damage when we got there (no system ground, evidence of several
> lightening strikes, open/corroded connections, and poor workmanship in
> general)
> The new owners want to build a third lodge at the other end of the
> island.. Some 3600ft away, and want to feed full power from the existing
> system to the new lodge.. Thing is, the new owner is pretty brainy (keeps
> me on my toes).. My first thought was to bump the 120/240VAC up to 480VAC
> and send it on like 4/0AL and back down to 120/240VAC at the new lodge
> (we've done it before).. The new owner wants to launder the AC to DC and
> back for transmission.. Says DC for transmission is the new Cats Pajamas
> because of the efficiency.. News to me.. Anyone have experience with DC for
> transmission? Again.. I'm shooting for 15kW (including 25% for continuous
> duty), 3600ft, 600V wire (but could go with a different wire) and a line
> loss under 5%. TIA db
>
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Transmitting 15kW 3600ft Off Grid.

[Tump]

Hey this is exactly everything I was going to say. Ahh the new owner, the 
dentist he’s a real piece of work. You got your spring vacation, on him, you 
got paid and now you want to go back? Hummm lets see installation for a MR. 
know it all, 500+ miles from home and you’re now going to use a transformer AND 
all wire on an island in salt water. Wow must be some good smoke. Dan YOU KNOW 
BETTER!
> On Jan 10, 2022, at 8:37 AM, Pieter Huebner  
> wrote:
> 
> It sounds like you are working on an Island near Jones port Maine ( Norton 
> Island). The site had or has a Bergey 7.5kw XL-R wind turbine, on a tilt 
> tower which is almost impossible to tilt, a solar array on a stacked log 
> tower, Kubota generator, flooded cell lead acid batteries and Outback 
> Inverters. Your assessment of the system is 100% correct, bad workmanship, 
> and little or no maintenance. The original design was poorly thought out as 
> well. The poor workmanship was not limited to the energy system, the 
> electrical infrastructure had issues as well. The original installer was in 
> way over his head. I have been to that site at the bequest of the original 
> owner to repair the wind turbine years ago.
> My suggestion is that you evaluate the existing equipment and 
> infrastructure, and salvage what you can then start with a fresh sheet of 
> paper. The electrical loads need to be mapped, for example the original owner 
> had a hot tub at the main house.
> The site would lend itself well to a micro grid system. if you like we can 
> have long discussions about this site and I will be happy to share what I 
> know about it as well as share my experiences with AC and DC distribution for 
> off grid sites.
> Pieter
>  
> 
>  
> From: RE-wrenches  > On Behalf Of Foxfire 
> Energy
> Sent: Monday, January 10, 2022 5:35 AM
> To: re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org 
> 
> Subject: [RE-wrenches] Transmitting 15kW 3600ft Off Grid.
>  
> Hi Guys, Got a good one for you.. We were tasked to refurbish a Stand Alone 
> (aka Off Grid) power system on a 100 acre private resort island off the New 
> England coast a few years back.. The system has a 12kW(AC)/ 48VDC power 
> center (@120/240VAC) with a 10kW Bergey wind turbine, 3kW of Solar and a 12kW 
> Diesel Generator.. It currently powers two main lodges and 10 private 
> cabins.. The system was never installed properly and had significant damage 
> when we got there (no system ground, evidence of several lightening strikes, 
> open/corroded connections, and poor workmanship in general)
> The new owners want to build a third lodge at the other end of the island.. 
> Some 3600ft away, and want to feed full power from the existing system to the 
> new lodge.. Thing is, the new owner is pretty brainy (keeps me on my toes).. 
> My first thought was to bump the 120/240VAC up to 480VAC and send it on like 
> 4/0AL and back down to 120/240VAC at the new lodge (we've done it before).. 
> The new owner wants to launder the AC to DC and back for transmission.. Says 
> DC for transmission is the new Cats Pajamas because of the efficiency.. News 
> to me.. Anyone have experience with DC for transmission? Again.. I'm shooting 
> for 15kW (including 25% for continuous duty), 3600ft, 600V wire (but could go 
> with a different wire) and a line loss under 5%. TIA db
>  
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>www.SWNL.net 
> http://www.swnl.net/%22%20%5Co%20%22blocked::http://www.swnl.net/>
> Solarwinds Northernlights   
>Serving Mid Coast Maine & Northern California
>  207-832-7574   Cl. 610-517-8401  
> 
>   Blair "TUMP" May
>  MAINE'S CHARTER 
>   

Re: [RE-wrenches] Enphase Envoy -Microinverters not reporting

[Christopher Warfel]

I find they drop out over time due to networking issues and eventually 
will reconnect and catch up on data. Right now, about 20% of my systems 
installed in the past 5 years are having some issue with a microinverter 
or network. In a couple of days, they probably will reconnect and the 
emails will end.  I do think that it is a good idea to put in a $100 
meter/enclosure so that you have a visual on power production, 
especially where the network is weak.  Our little coop here has "smart 
meters" that are supposed to show power flow.Having the customer create 
an account and give you the password is another check if you have such 
meters.  My problem has been getting the utility here to make sure the 
software is set up for us the owners to be able to determine power flow.



Chris

On 1/10/2022 1:12 PM, Nick A Lucchese wrote:

Greetings Wrenches,

Two of the Enphase systems I installed 3-4 years ago about a year apart of one 
another are all of a sudden indicating a micro inverters not reporting and 
Envoy not reporting diagnosis on Enlighten and Installer Toolkit. This was 
initially diagnosed a few weeks ago before the weather hit the west coast so is 
unrelated in that regard. The first site with micro’s not reporting had not had 
any equipment or network changes to justify why it wasn’t connecting to the 
client’s router. After multiple attempts to get it to reconnect and the client 
even replacing his older router with something more powerful it still will not 
connect. I’m using the new Installer Toolkit as well and even with that when 
I’m at the point of “Connect Envoy to internet via Wifi” with network name and 
password fields populated it still will not enable satisfaction when pressing 
“CONNECT”. I’ve been to the site multiple times now and also went through 
Enphase’s live chat (while not on site) and still no success. No matter what 
I’ve tried so far, no joy. I also have a second site doing the same thing 
however I’ve been instructing the competent homeowner remotely on this one 
before I make the effort to get on site. Also, even though now it is saying 
micro’s not reporting I believe this one initially just said Envoy not 
reporting. I’ve confirmed myself on the first site that the system is still 
producing and definitely nothing wrong with the array or micros and had the 
client confirm power production on the second site by observing the utility 
meter.

Has anyone else had this type of problem with the Envoy after years of 
successful operation and no site changes? Do they actually just fail every once 
in awhile or have the newest generations of the Envoys over the last few years 
been solid for everyone? It would be problematic to run ethernet cables on both 
sites so other than perhaps testing purposes a hardwired connection isn’t an 
option. At the moment I’m planning a second “live chat” support call but 
thinking they’re not going to take me anywhere beyond the support documentation 
they already have. Last time the support specialist ended with “don’t worry it 
will work”. If this was an off grid job I’d have all kinds of loaner equipment 
I could implement to help eliminate possibilities but I’d rather not purchase 
an extra Envoy just yet.

I wish they still had a piece of hardware for simple monitoring of power 
production. I know the original Envoy had some limitations as well but at least 
it gave quick at  glance confidence for the homeowner to the large contingent 
of my clients that don't want to be troubled with searching for their system in 
a web portal or app. This move of going to all online monitoring by many 
manufacturers burns up many hours of my time each year troubleshooting wi-fi 
and networking bu*t. I love Enphase and am blown away by what they’re doing 
but sure wish they still offered a simple monitor other than a phone or 
computer to observe production on site.

Thanks for any insights if you have it, Nick


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--
            Christopher Warfel
                 ENTECH Engineering, Inc.
PO Box 871, Block Island, RI 02807
                                401-466-8978



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Re: [RE-wrenches] Transmitting 15kW 3600ft Off Grid.

[Kent]

The decision to use transformers, to step the voltage up and down, 
rather than larger wire for a long circuit is more complicated than 
simply comparing the cost of the wire to the cost of transformers and 
smaller wire. Even with good toroidal transformers, the transformer pair 
is adding about 10% loss in the system. And while the transformer 
hysteresis losses may be a less than 1% of the transformer capacity, 
they are 24/7 independent of the load. The supply side costs to provide 
for the lost energy in the transformers needs to be considered too.


Kent Osterberg
Blue Mountain Solar


On 1/10/2022 6:24 AM, Hilton Dier wrote:

So you have a client with clever ideas - my deepest sympathies. The five most 
frightening words from a client are “I am a retired engineer.”

DC transmission is theoretically more efficient due to the surface conduction 
effects of AC. However, this is only true in a practical sense at 
utility/megawatt scale. At residential scale you will have losses in the 
electronics at either end that will negate the wire savings.

Get some toroidal transformers and go to 480 and back. Fat wire is kind of 
expensive, but really it’s the trench (and these days, pvc conduit) that cost 
the money. Fat wire in conduit is solid state and will never blow a capacitor. 
Transformers, if not overloaded, last.

On that last point, 2x oversize the transformers for the load. There will be 
“mission creep” while you aren’t looking. “Oh, we didn’t think that half a 
dozen 1500 watt resistance heaters scattered around would make any difference.”

Good luck.

Hilton Dier III
Renewable Energy Design
Missisquoi River Hydro LLC
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Transmitting 15kW 3600ft Off Grid.

[Ray]

That's a long enough run that you really need to weigh the cost of a 
separate system.  I'm not seeing the advantages of keeping a single 
system for the whole island.


Ray Walters
Remote Solar
303 505-8760

On 1/10/22 9:43 AM, Chris Mason wrote:
I would use a 6,600V single phase outdoor pad mounted transformer pair 
and deep bury a single #2 direct burial cable. Easy and quick.


On Mon, Jan 10, 2022 at 7:34 AM Foxfire Energy 
 wrote:


Hi Guys, Got a good one for you.. We were tasked to refurbish a
Stand Alone (aka Off Grid) power system on a 100 acre private
resort island off the New England coast a few years back.. The
system has a 12kW(AC)/ 48VDC power center (@120/240VAC) with a
10kW Bergey wind turbine, 3kW of Solar and a 12kW Diesel
Generator.. It currently powers two main lodges and 10 private
cabins.. The system was never installed properly and had
significant damage when we got there (no system ground, evidence
of several lightening strikes, open/corroded connections, and poor
workmanship in general)
The new owners want to build a third lodge at the other end of the
island.. Some 3600ft away, and want to feed full power from the
existing system to the new lodge.. Thing is, the new owner is
pretty brainy (keeps me on my toes).. My first thought was to bump
the 120/240VAC up to 480VAC and send it on like 4/0AL and back
down to 120/240VAC at the new lodge (we've done it before).. The
new owner wants to launder the AC to DC and back for
transmission.. Says DC for transmission is the new Cats Pajamas
because of the efficiency.. News to me.. Anyone have experience
with DC for transmission? Again.. I'm shooting for 15kW (including
25% for continuous duty), 3600ft, 600V wire (but could go with a
different wire) and a line loss under 5%. TIA db

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--
Chris Mason
Solar systems designer
Generac Generators Industrial technician

Comet Systems Ltd DBA Comet Solar
Anguilla Cell  264.235.5670
WhatsApp 264.235.5670
Skype: netconcepts
www.cometsolar.com 

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Re: [RE-wrenches] Transmitting 15kW 3600ft Off Grid.

[Chris Mason]

I would use a 6,600V single phase outdoor pad mounted transformer pair and
deep bury a single #2 direct burial cable. Easy and quick.

On Mon, Jan 10, 2022 at 7:34 AM Foxfire Energy 
wrote:

> Hi Guys, Got a good one for you.. We were tasked to refurbish a Stand
> Alone (aka Off Grid) power system on a 100 acre private resort island off
> the New England coast a few years back.. The system has a 12kW(AC)/ 48VDC
> power center (@120/240VAC) with a 10kW Bergey wind turbine, 3kW of Solar
> and a 12kW Diesel Generator.. It currently powers two main lodges and 10
> private cabins.. The system was never installed properly and had
> significant damage when we got there (no system ground, evidence of several
> lightening strikes, open/corroded connections, and poor workmanship in
> general)
> The new owners want to build a third lodge at the other end of the
> island.. Some 3600ft away, and want to feed full power from the existing
> system to the new lodge.. Thing is, the new owner is pretty brainy (keeps
> me on my toes).. My first thought was to bump the 120/240VAC up to 480VAC
> and send it on like 4/0AL and back down to 120/240VAC at the new lodge
> (we've done it before).. The new owner wants to launder the AC to DC and
> back for transmission.. Says DC for transmission is the new Cats Pajamas
> because of the efficiency.. News to me.. Anyone have experience with DC for
> transmission? Again.. I'm shooting for 15kW (including 25% for continuous
> duty), 3600ft, 600V wire (but could go with a different wire) and a line
> loss under 5%. TIA db
>
> ___
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-- 
Chris Mason
Solar systems designer
Generac Generators Industrial technician

Comet Systems Ltd DBA Comet Solar
Anguilla Cell  264.235.5670
WhatsApp 264.235.5670
Skype: netconcepts
www.cometsolar.com 
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Transmitting 15kW 3600ft Off Grid.

[Darryl Thayer]

Yes, i agree, with others, DC has lower losses when at higher voltage, when
i was involved with similar project, we took transformer cost plus wire
cost  did some simulations, (added wire and transformer for different
configurations) and selected lowest cost.

On Mon, Jan 10, 2022, 5:34 AM Foxfire Energy  wrote:

> Hi Guys, Got a good one for you.. We were tasked to refurbish a Stand
> Alone (aka Off Grid) power system on a 100 acre private resort island off
> the New England coast a few years back.. The system has a 12kW(AC)/ 48VDC
> power center (@120/240VAC) with a 10kW Bergey wind turbine, 3kW of Solar
> and a 12kW Diesel Generator.. It currently powers two main lodges and 10
> private cabins.. The system was never installed properly and had
> significant damage when we got there (no system ground, evidence of several
> lightening strikes, open/corroded connections, and poor workmanship in
> general)
> The new owners want to build a third lodge at the other end of the
> island.. Some 3600ft away, and want to feed full power from the existing
> system to the new lodge.. Thing is, the new owner is pretty brainy (keeps
> me on my toes).. My first thought was to bump the 120/240VAC up to 480VAC
> and send it on like 4/0AL and back down to 120/240VAC at the new lodge
> (we've done it before).. The new owner wants to launder the AC to DC and
> back for transmission.. Says DC for transmission is the new Cats Pajamas
> because of the efficiency.. News to me.. Anyone have experience with DC for
> transmission? Again.. I'm shooting for 15kW (including 25% for continuous
> duty), 3600ft, 600V wire (but could go with a different wire) and a line
> loss under 5%. TIA db
>
> ___
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[RE-wrenches] Transmitting 15kW 3600ft Off Grid.

[Hilton Dier]

So you have a client with clever ideas - my deepest sympathies. The five most 
frightening words from a client are “I am a retired engineer.”

DC transmission is theoretically more efficient due to the surface conduction 
effects of AC. However, this is only true in a practical sense at 
utility/megawatt scale. At residential scale you will have losses in the 
electronics at either end that will negate the wire savings.

Get some toroidal transformers and go to 480 and back. Fat wire is kind of 
expensive, but really it’s the trench (and these days, pvc conduit) that cost 
the money. Fat wire in conduit is solid state and will never blow a capacitor. 
Transformers, if not overloaded, last. 

On that last point, 2x oversize the transformers for the load. There will be 
“mission creep” while you aren’t looking. “Oh, we didn’t think that half a 
dozen 1500 watt resistance heaters scattered around would make any difference.”

Good luck. 

Hilton Dier III
Renewable Energy Design
Missisquoi River Hydro LLC
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[RE-wrenches] Transmitting 15kW 3600ft Off Grid.

[Foxfire Energy]

Hi Guys, Got a good one for you.. We were tasked to refurbish a Stand Alone 
(aka Off Grid) power system on a 100 acre private resort island off the New 
England coast a few years back.. The system has a 12kW(AC)/ 48VDC power center 
(@120/240VAC) with a 10kW Bergey wind turbine, 3kW of Solar and a 12kW Diesel 
Generator.. It currently powers two main lodges and 10 private cabins.. The 
system was never installed properly and had significant damage when we got 
there (no system ground, evidence of several lightening strikes, open/corroded 
connections, and poor workmanship in general)
The new owners want to build a third lodge at the other end of the island.. 
Some 3600ft away, and want to feed full power from the existing system to the 
new lodge.. Thing is, the new owner is pretty brainy (keeps me on my toes).. My 
first thought was to bump the 120/240VAC up to 480VAC and send it on like 4/0AL 
and back down to 120/240VAC at the new lodge (we've done it before).. The new 
owner wants to launder the AC to DC and back for transmission.. Says DC for 
transmission is the new Cats Pajamas because of the efficiency.. News to me.. 
Anyone have experience with DC for transmission? Again.. I'm shooting for 15kW 
(including 25% for continuous duty), 3600ft, 600V wire (but could go with a 
different wire) and a line loss under 5%. TIA db

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