Re: [RE-wrenches] AC Coupling

[Kienan Maxfield via RE-wrenches]

That is my point was that the only consideration that deals with overcharge 
that I could possibly think of is with systems that have a poor implementation 
of the frequency shift (like the older Schneiders).


I think that AC coupling gets a black eye from the old days and from brands 
that have bad implementations. They also get a black eye from installers who 
don't program the systems correctly.


So to set matters straight, IF you use good equipment, and IF you program it 
right, then you do get a nice taper charge with AC coupling. I know it hasn't 
always been that way, but we are talking about today, not 5 or 10 years ago. I 
have tested it and seen it myself. You get good smooth 3 stage charging, 
completely controlled by the battery-based inverter, and it's based on the 
inverter's voltage sensors. I'm not going to try to make any overarching 
statements beyond the brands I have hands-on experience with (Outback and 
Victron) but with these systems, it is no different than charging with a charge 
controller. The tapering effect is there whether it's open loop (traditional 
system with no comms) or whether it's closed loop, or SOC based.


Most people also misunderstand closed loop communications. With most brands, 
you can't see what's going on, but because Victron is open source, you can look 
in and see exactly what is going on. What I'm about to say may have some 
exceptions (Like the Sunny Island).
Generally speaking, the charge controllers and inverters still operate very 
similar to how they do with Lead Acid batteries, but instead of you manually 
putting in the charge voltage and current limitations, the BMS sends the Max 
Voltage and Max Current parameters, so the inverters and charge controllers 
just override their parameters based on the last instruction from the BMS. The 
BMS sends 3 parameters, Max Charge Voltage, Max Charge Current, and Max 
Discharge Current. When you start charging a discharged battery, the BMS will 
send parameters telling it to charge to a specified voltage not to exceed a 
specified maximum current (basically a bulk/absorb charge). Once the BMS 
decides that the battery is sufficiently balanced and at 100%, it ends this 
"absorb" charge by sending a new set of parameters to the system. The new set 
of parameters will have either a reduced voltage, a reduced current, or both. 
If heat is generated in the battery at any time, or if any one cell has too 
high of a voltage at any time, then the BMS will send a new set of parameters 
to reduce the charge voltage/current accordingly. The only element that SOC 
plays in the whole affair is helping the BMS to know when to send what charging 
parameters. Of course, if the batteries get too cold, the BMS will likely send 
a new set of parameters with charge current set to 0A. In any case, whether you 
like Closed Loop comms or whether you hate them, that has no bearing on AC 
coupled vs DC coupled.

So whether you have closed loop communications or whether you have open loop 
communications won't really determine too much how good or bad the AC coupling 
is for Lithium batteries... If you have it set up right with frequency-Watt, 
then you'll have a nice taper charge either way. Without closed loop, you'll 
have a nice taper charge at your absorb voltage, and you'll have tapered float 
voltage. With Closed-loop, you'll have a nice tapered charge dictated by the 
voltages and currents desired by the BMS.


I want to make one thing abundantly clear before I sign off... Most AC coupled 
systems I've seen are not programmed correctly... the installer never 
programmed the Grid-direct inverter to function correctly for frequency-watt. 
In this case, then everything I have said goes out the window, and AC coupled 
systems that are set up in this way are really bad for the batteries. If this 
mistake is made, then it is really hard on the batteries just like Steve 
Higgins was talking about, and it totally makes sense that this would void the 
warranty.

Have a great day! 73,
Kienan Maxfield


Green-Go Solar Wholesale Distribution

maxfieldso...@hotmail.com<https://maxfieldso...@hotmail.com/>

(801) 631-5584(Cell)

www.distribution.solar



From: RE-wrenches  on behalf of 
Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches 
Sent: Monday, October 30, 2023 8:32 AM
To: RE-wrenches 
Cc: Jason Szumlanski 
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] AC Coupling

I read through this thread, and I don't think one important aspect was covered 
with respect to "overcharging" batteries. There may be risk with lead acid 
batteries connected to a hybrid inverter that is AC coupled. But LiPO batteries 
have a BMS that is there, in part, to protect the battery from an overcharge 
scenario. The BMS is going to disconnect the battery before catastrophe 
strikes. In my opinion, AC Coupling is better suited to modern equipment that 
talks to each other in a closed loop. Crude algorithms for throttling PV don't 
se

Re: [RE-wrenches] AC Coupling

[Kienan Maxfield via RE-wrenches]

William,

My whole email is in regards to the point you made when you said
"This is not how battery inverters were originally designed to operate.  These 
systems require careful consideration to avoid battery overcharging."

I both agree and disagree with these statements... depending on what you mean. 
I don't think it's super helpful to say that careful considerations are 
required without mentioning what those considerations are, and I'll get to 
those below.





When you say that the battery inverters "weren't originally designed for this" 
I'd agree to an extent.. The "original" battery based inverters 25 years ago 
were certainly not designed for AC coupling. They weren't "originally" designed 
for it. But that was then and this is now.





Now William is correct that the Gen input becomes an AC output, and you can't 
wire the gen into that "input" if you are using it as a PV input... that being 
said, Jay didn't think otherwise, he was just critiquing the wiring diagram in 
the original post to say that it wires up differently, so I'd say that you are 
both right on this one. That said, I don't think anyone says you have to wire 
it into the gen port, I think that even with the hybrid inverters, the way in 
William's original post is still a fully acceptable way to do it.



I am not a huge fan of AC coupling, however, I have done it a fair amount and I 
have a fair amount of experience with it off-grid with Lithium and with Lead 
Acid. Most of my experience is with Outback and Victron, but I have some 
experience with Schneider as well. These systems have been working really well 
for a good while, but that being said, Schneider had some real problems at 
first (major headache).


Now when it comes to hybrid inverters, I'm still not a huge fan... but I'm 
starting to try them out. I have not tested AC coupling with any of them yet. I 
was at a conference less than a year ago and one of the major brands was saying 
that there is no hybrid inverter that supports both AC coupled PV and a 
generator at the same time for a grid tied system. They said "you can't have it 
all." There may be an exception to that, I've never looked into it, but with 
the Victron and Outback (and probably Scheider... IDK) it's easy to have it 
all. I've done it and it works well in every mode. The frequency changes super 
fast and assuming you have a properly programmed rule 21 compliant Grid tied 
inverter, it responds very quickly, and in the systems I've monitored, the 
frequency never had to go above 62 Hz, which is good enough for most sensitive 
loads. The inverters are totally designed for this these days, but if you have 
highly sensitive loads, then it may not work well.



Considerations...
First of all, I will be assuming that you are using quality rule 21 grid-direct 
inverters and a good battery inverter that works as well as the Outback Radian 
or the Victron. The early Schneiders were too slow in changing their frequency, 
and special considerations had to be accounted for because of that, but I heard 
that was fixed a while ago. You had to reduce the charging voltages to account 
for the delayed throttling, but I can attest that even in the early days, 
Outback never had this problem, and Victron works smoothly as well.

The primary problem for AC coupling is in off-grid scenarios or prolonged power 
outages, and that's the black start issue (or dark start). Simply put, if your 
battery gets low and the battery inverter turns off, then your PV can't charge 
the battery. This problem is lessened when you connect the PV Grid Direct 
inverters to a dedicated output on the inverter so that the loads shut down 
while the battery is still a few percent above the inverter shutdown level. 
That is a nice advantage of the Victron inverters. I don't know if the Hybrid 
inverters do this or not. In any case, even with this little safety net, the 
inverter can still discharge the battery to the point where the inverter turns 
off and you have a problem. My solution is that you should have at least a 
little bit of the PV DC coupled so that when the sun comes out, the voltage 
will rise and the inverter will turn on. This is also recommended in Victron's 
AC Coupling manual.

The second consideration is the minimum inverter size... Your battery based 
inverter needs to be capable of handling and controlling the full PV power. 
Victron recommends that the maximum PV power (DC or AC, whichever is lower) 
does not exceed 100% of the rating of the inverter (no more than 10kW of power 
from the PV on a 10kW inverter). Outback recommends no more than 6 kW of 
Grid-Tied inverter per 8 kW of Radian (so that's 75% of the battery inverter's 
power). In some circumstances, this could demand upsizing the battery inverter, 
which is another great reason to DC couple half of the PV and AC couple the 
other half... because then you could effectively have more PV with less battery 
based inverter, depending on your loads.

As was 

Re: [RE-wrenches] Sunny Island AC-Coupled system integration with Fortress E-Vault

[Kienan Maxfield via RE-wrenches]

William,

The charge controllers could operate in open loop, while the SMA did close the 
loop. Open loop works really well for charge controllers.

I question if the closed loop communication was really working correctly if the 
SI is reporting 50% SOC when the batteries are reporting 95%… The SI should be 
getting its % info from the batteries…

My thoughts are that the inverter needs to start frequency shifting at a lower 
voltage. If the closed loop communication isn’t working correctly, you could 
try setting a lower absorb and float voltage…

I’ve had bad luck using open loop Lithium with SMA…

If you were to consider switching out the inverters, consider putting in 
Fortress Envy inverters.

-Kienan


Green-Go Solar Wholesale Distribution LLC

kienan@dist.solar

maxfieldso...@hotmail.com

(801) 631-5584(Cell)

www.distribution.solar

On Oct 24, 2023, at 9:20 AM, Chris Sparadeo via RE-wrenches 
 wrote:


Hi William,

That’s an interesting idea to have close loop comms with two separate 
manufacturers at the same time. In theory I think this could work,  but 
unfortunately, I don’t think SMA and Schneider share the same protocol # for 
the eVault. I believe SMA uses protocol #2 and Schneider uses #5.

Kindly,

Chris

On Tue, Oct 24, 2023 at 10:40 AM MDElectricSolar via RE-wrenches 
mailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org>> 
wrote:
I would tear all the sunny boys and sunny islands out and install two 15 kW 
Sol-Arks,  problem solved. DC coupled. I've done this several times now for 
existing clients (mostly connected to the grid) but it is so much cleaner and 
more compact and effective.

Michael D Nelson
MD Electric & Solar, Inc.
707-684-0064 mobile
707-884-1862 office
www.mdelectricsolar.com
www.facebook.com/mdelectricandsolar


On Oct 24, 2023, at 7:31 AM, William Miller via RE-wrenches 
mailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org>> 
wrote:


Friends:

This situation is as yet unresolved.  It is complicated enough I created a web 
page
 to describe the scenario so I did not have to explain it over and over.  I 
submitted this to Fortress tech support.  They said they had likely not tested 
the Fortress compatibility with SI in an AC-Coupled system.

While Fortress technicians and/or engineers ponder the situation I am 
brainstorming solutions.  One idea is to convert to a DC coupled system.  DC 
Charge controllers will have intrinsically better voltage control.  The charge 
controller most likely suitable is the Schneider 600 volt 100 amp unit.  I 
would need two of them.  It is compatible with the existing string wiring.  In 
researching it many questions came up about that product’s suitability.  There 
is an integration guide for a Schneider system and Fortress but this would be a 
mixed system of Schneider and SMA.  Would I be able to apply closed loop 
communication to both systems?  Could the charge controllers work in open loop? 
 Has anyone tried anything like this?

I will keep you apprised.

William Miller

Miller Solar
17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422
805-438-5600
www.millersolar.com
CA Lic. 773985


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Re: [RE-wrenches] Nuance ground racking

[Kienan Maxfield via RE-wrenches]

Jason,

I've had good luck with DeWalt's carbide 4 blade bits like this one - 
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B4RHF2/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8=1

There are other brands that are probably just as good, but I'd look for carbide 
and I'd look for the 4 cutter design.

Thanks,
Kienan

Green-Go Solar Wholesale Distribution
kienan@dist.solar
(801) 631-5584

From: Jason Szumlanski 
Sent: Thursday, October 12, 2023 4:10 AM
To: RE-wrenches 
Cc: Kienan Maxfield 
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Nuance ground racking

On that subject, what bits are people using to drill holes through 
block/concrete (for 1" - 2" conduit)? We have been using some dry diamond 
coring bits we buy online, but they don't seem to last. We have had them break 
off at the weld. Wet coring seems overkill for the relatively few holes we need 
to make.

Jason Szumlanski
Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group
NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP)
Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956


On Wed, Oct 11, 2023 at 10:49 PM Kienan Maxfield via RE-wrenches 
mailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org>> 
wrote:
I own the Dewalt 2 inch 60V rotary hammer you linked and it is totally awesome. 
You’ll be blown away by it. It’s totally worth it.

You might want to make sure to just use the huge 12ah batteries that it comes 
with… might be a lot of power demand fire smaller 60V batteries… but I 
regularly use mine with the smaller batteries and I’ve never had a problem.

I mostly use it for drilling 2 inch holes in 8” concrete walls for bringing 
conduit into basements and crawl spaces. It goes through amazingly easily. 
Everyone who has tried mine has been totally blown away… probably about 8 
professionals and contractors.

Thanks,
Kienan


Green-Go Solar Wholesale Distribution LLC

kienan@dist.solar

(801) 631-5584(Cell)

www.distribution.solar

On Oct 9, 2023, at 8:33 AM, Dave Tedeyan via RE-wrenches 
mailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org>> 
wrote:


Hi all,

I am going to try out the Nuance OSPREY PowerRack as a ground mount option that 
does not require an excavator. I am wondering two things about it:

1. Does anyone have experience with this, and do you like it?

2. What drill do you use for the drive rod?
It seems like the Milwaukee 2" SDS max drill is the standard - 
https://www.milwaukeetool.com/Products/5342-21
I am wondering if it is possible to use a cordless drill though. DeWalt makes 
both a cordless and corded version that claim to have the same impact energy as 
each other, although both are less than the Milwaukee Drill. Milwaukee has 19.9 
ft-lbs of energy and the DeWalt ones have 19.4 Joules, which is 14.3 ft-lbs of 
energy.
Cordless Kit - 
https://www.dewalt.com/product/dch773y2/60v-max-2-brushless-cordless-sds-max-combination-rotary-hammer-kit
Corded Kit - https://www.dewalt.com/product/d25773k/2-sds-max-rotary-hammer

The cordless drill is tempting because I already have a bunch of DeWalt 
equipment, and it would be nice to avoid needing a generator or some very long 
extension cords.

Thanks!
-Dave

--
[Logo]<https://www.sungineersolar.com/>
Dave Tedeyan, P.E.
Owner | Sungineer Solar
p: he | him | his
a: 1653 Slaterville Rd. | Ithaca, NY 14850
w: www.sungineersolar.com<http://www.sungineersolar.com/>
c: (607) 270-0370
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Pytes Batteries

[Kienan Maxfield via RE-wrenches]

From what I’ve seen in the discussions here, some people think they’re well 
made, but when you do need technical support for any reason, good luck… maybe 
people have gotten some support, but if my memory serves me correctly, the 
general feeling I got reading the posts was that there was no support.

Thanks,
Kienan


Green-Go Solar Wholesale Distribution LLC

kienan@dist.solar

(801) 631-5584(Cell)

www.distribution.solar

On Oct 11, 2023, at 6:41 PM, MDElectricSolar via RE-wrenches 
 wrote:

 I have installed two Sol-Ark and Pytes off grid systems so far, have a couple 
more coming up. So far so good no issues they seem to be a well-built product.

Michael D Nelson
MD Electric & Solar, Inc.
707-684-0064 mobile
707-884-1862 office
www.mdelectricsolar.com
www.facebook.com/mdelectricandsolar


On Oct 11, 2023, at 5:33 PM, Howie Michaelson via RE-wrenches 
 wrote:


Does anyone have any experience with using Pytes LiFePO4 batteries? They appear 
to be a solid option, but have little to no direct knowledge of them.
TIA,
Howie Michaelson
Sun Catcher

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Re: [RE-wrenches] Nuance ground racking

[Kienan Maxfield via RE-wrenches]

I own the Dewalt 2 inch 60V rotary hammer you linked and it is totally awesome. 
You’ll be blown away by it. It’s totally worth it.

You might want to make sure to just use the huge 12ah batteries that it comes 
with… might be a lot of power demand fire smaller 60V batteries… but I 
regularly use mine with the smaller batteries and I’ve never had a problem.

I mostly use it for drilling 2 inch holes in 8” concrete walls for bringing 
conduit into basements and crawl spaces. It goes through amazingly easily. 
Everyone who has tried mine has been totally blown away… probably about 8 
professionals and contractors.

Thanks,
Kienan


Green-Go Solar Wholesale Distribution LLC

kienan@dist.solar

(801) 631-5584(Cell)

www.distribution.solar

On Oct 9, 2023, at 8:33 AM, Dave Tedeyan via RE-wrenches 
 wrote:


Hi all,

I am going to try out the Nuance OSPREY PowerRack as a ground mount option that 
does not require an excavator. I am wondering two things about it:

1. Does anyone have experience with this, and do you like it?

2. What drill do you use for the drive rod?
It seems like the Milwaukee 2" SDS max drill is the standard - 
https://www.milwaukeetool.com/Products/5342-21
I am wondering if it is possible to use a cordless drill though. DeWalt makes 
both a cordless and corded version that claim to have the same impact energy as 
each other, although both are less than the Milwaukee Drill. Milwaukee has 19.9 
ft-lbs of energy and the DeWalt ones have 19.4 Joules, which is 14.3 ft-lbs of 
energy.
Cordless Kit - 
https://www.dewalt.com/product/dch773y2/60v-max-2-brushless-cordless-sds-max-combination-rotary-hammer-kit
Corded Kit - https://www.dewalt.com/product/d25773k/2-sds-max-rotary-hammer

The cordless drill is tempting because I already have a bunch of DeWalt 
equipment, and it would be nice to avoid needing a generator or some very long 
extension cords.

Thanks!
-Dave

--
[Logo]
Dave Tedeyan, P.E.
Owner | Sungineer Solar
p: he | him | his
a: 1653 Slaterville Rd. | Ithaca, NY 14850
w: www.sungineersolar.com
c: (607) 270-0370
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Generator question

[Kienan Maxfield via RE-wrenches]

The Victron idea for controlling gen start is an interesting one for sure.

The idea Mac proposed as far as triggering gen start based on DC current is 
easy to do, but as he mentioned it's flawed because the PV input would 
effectively reduce the DC current that the shunt sees.

The alternative is slightly more complicated, but with a Victron Cerbo-s GX and 
an AC meter (such as the EM530), you could totally do this based on AC Load 
amperage. You'd need a RS485-USB cable to connect the two devices together, and 
you'd probably have to do the programming in Node-Red (all stuff I'd be happy 
to help with and walk you through).

You'd still have the other general Solark limitations (no warm-up or 
cool-down)...
Then again, you could potentially control a second contactor with the Cerbo-S 
in order to provide warm-up and cool-down... and then again on the other hand, 
if you're firing up the generator because the inverter can't support the 
demand, then maybe you need it to take the load over before it has a 
substantial warmup time...

Cheers,

Kienan Maxfield
Technical sales, Technical Support

Green-Go Solar Distribution
kienan@dist.solar<https://kienan@dist.solar/>
(801) 631-5584 (Cell)
www.distribution.solar<https://www.distribution.solar/>

From: RE-wrenches  on behalf of Mac 
Lewis via RE-wrenches 
Sent: Tuesday, September 26, 2023 5:58 AM
To: offgridso...@sti.net ; RE-wrenches 

Cc: Mac Lewis 
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Generator question

Hello Chris,

I think you will find that the generator interaction with the Sol-Ark is very 
basic and you won't have much flexibility to do this.

As far as ancillary equipment to do a load start, one idea that comes to mind 
is a Victron shunt, Cerbo and GX device.  I'm brainstorming a little bit here 
but if you add the shunt into the battery negative cabling, the Cerbo can be 
sent the battery current measurement.  The Cerbo could then be programmed to 
start based on battery current.  This is a little different than standard AC 
load start but it may cover what you need.  Unfortunately, if the inverter is 
getting overloaded while its sunny, battery current alone can't catch the solar 
current that is being sent directly to the loads and shutdowns will still occur.

Before you do this, I would suggest contacting Kienan Maxfield of Green-go 
Solar Distribution (he's on this list) and knows Victron equipment really well. 
 He can probably tell you if I'm off in the weeds...

Let us know what you find out.

On Mon, Sep 25, 2023 at 11:25 AM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar via RE-wrenches 
mailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org>> 
wrote:
I would trigger genset on Soc. Is that what you are doing?



Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar
"we go where powerlines don't"
  <http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/> https://offgridsolar1.com/ 
<http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/>
e-mail  offgridso...@sti.net<mailto:offgridso...@sti.net>
text 209 813 0060


On 2023-09-25 9:20 am, Chris Daum via RE-wrenches wrote:

 Hi folks:



We have a situation where the Sol-Ark 12kW Inverter isn’t able to adequately 
manage the loads and perform auto-gen start other than low battery level.   And 
despite thorough understanding of the customer’s initial loads, after he’s 
bought the system, he’s continued to add more and more loads – a severe case of 
load creep.



He’s got a 38KW generator and we’re looking for the components to make the 
generator load responsive instead of just kicking on when the battery voltage 
is low.  Are there any ideas on switching equipment that can do this and work 
with the Sol-Ark?  We’re waiting for a reply from Sol-Ark, but thought you 
folks may have some ideas.



The original design was for a larger solar system and inverter, but the 
customer balked at the cost and said he’d reduce his loads accordingly.  
Unfortunately, that has not happened!   Now we’re trying to bend the laws of 
physics and have his 38KW  generator make up the difference. We need to come up 
with a means of accommodating the compromised design and now are faced with 
additional loads -- along with a significantly reduced solar array.   Is there 
a way to make this (2 wire start) generator more load responsive?



Thanks for any and all advice!



 Chris Daum

 Oasis Montana Inc.

 406-777-4309 or 4321

 www.oasismontana.com<http://www.oasismontana.com>







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Re: [RE-wrenches] Sunny Island/Fortress E-vault

[Kienan Maxfield via RE-wrenches]

William,

I'm sorry, I was assuming that people posting here simply hadn't found these 
integration instructions. If you have tried these and they didn't work, then I 
stand corrected. I have no personal experience paring this with SMA... I have 
some really bad experience trying to pair other LiFePO4 batteries with SMA open 
loop... I basically try to avoid The SMA Sunny Island products any more, but 
that's not always an option...

I'm curious if you know which tech support agent told you they've been having 
problems... I was actually giving someone a price to use Fortress with an 
existing SMA and if they want to go forward, I might contact my friends at 
Fortress and see if they would want to work with my client's system as a pilot 
to try to iron out the kinks...

Thanks,



Kienan Maxfield
Technical sales, Technical Support

Green-Go Solar Wholesale Distribution
kienan@dist.solar<https://kienan@dist.solar/>
(801) 631-5584 (Cell)
www.distribution.solar<https://www.distribution.solar/>

From: RE-wrenches  on behalf of 
William Miller via RE-wrenches 
Sent: Tuesday, September 19, 2023 1:39 PM
To: RE-wrenches 
Cc: William Miller 
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Sunny Island/Fortress E-vault

Kieran:

I have read the documentation. Fortress tech support said there have been 
problems and recommended open loop.

Do you know what parameters are passed with closed loop?

William Miller
Miller Solar.com
805-438-5600
www.millersolar.com<http://www.millersolar.com>


On Tue, Sep 19, 2023 at 12:18 PM Kienan Maxfield via RE-wrenches 
mailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org>> 
wrote:
That's actually incorrect, Fortress totally does support closed-loop with the 
SMA Sunny Island inverters. Here is their integration guide. This has all of 
the instructions and coms wiring, etc. - 
https://learn.fortresspower.com/external/manual/sma/article/introduction-useful-links?p=dc8b9a9c1b3f410556835193e66f2257c662403dfb3da4056e618e954e8381d2

Thanks,

Kienan Maxfield
Technical sales, Technical Support

Green-Go Solar Distribution
kienan@dist.solar<https://kienan@dist.solar/>
(801) 631-5584 (Cell)
www.distribution.solar<https://www.distribution.solar/>




From: RE-wrenches 
mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org>>
 on behalf of Kirk Herander via RE-wrenches 
mailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org>>
Sent: Saturday, September 16, 2023 8:33 AM
To: RE-wrenches 
mailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org>>
Cc: Kirk Herander 
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Sunny Island/Fortress E-vault

Jerry,

Who is the maker of the Blue Planet/Outback SOC box interface you mention?

On Sat, Sep 16, 2023 at 9:30 AM Jerry Shafer via RE-wrenches 
mailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org>> 
wrote:
Mac, wrenches
SMA and fortress can only open loop and with a fixed temp sender its fine. Now 
on the blue planet and open loop with outback, you need a SOC box that they can 
make for you, it will interface with the blue planet and command the genny.
Fun times

On Sat, Sep 16, 2023, 6:04 AM Mac Lewis 
mailto:maclew...@gmail.com>> wrote:
Hi William,

Are you doing open loop or closed loop communication?  I'm not sure if Fortress 
can do a closed loop with SMA or not.

We struggled to get the open loop to work well with some Blue Ion batteries, 
not from a charging sense but from a sense of getting the auto gen start to 
trigger correctly.  Basically, the SOC algorithm was always way off.  For a 
while we were using an external voltage trigger and we could get the generator 
to start OK before BMS shutdown.  We have since added a Namaka box and are 
using the "Ext BMS" setting for battery type in the Sunny Island and it has 
been working very well.

I think the difficulty arises because the Sunny Island is so State-of-Charge 
centric and you can't manipulate the SOC algorithm without that Ext-BMS setting 
(and solid communication).  One weakness of the ext BMS setting is that it 
won't fall back on Voltage settings if battery communication goes down, but 
this is a weakness throughout closed loop communication for many manufacturers.

Let us know if there is a Fortress to SMA communication solution.





On Fri, Sep 15, 2023 at 11:11 PM Jerry Shafer via RE-wrenches 
mailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org>> 
wrote:
William, Wrenches
Yes I do and it does require some basic electronics to make it work correctly, 
you will need to remove the ttemp sender and make a resistor pack to simulate 
the 77 degree reading otherwise it will not charge properly, for the first one 
I used a breadboard to set the temp for what I wanted to see then build a more 
solid state shrink wrap resistor. Doing this will prevent undercharge by the 
SMA and your customer will be happy to see the full state of charge at the 
batteries.
OldSchool fun times



On Thu, Sep 14, 2023 at 2:12 PM William Miller via RE-wrenches 
mailto:re-w

Re: [RE-wrenches] Sunny Island/Fortress E-vault

[Kienan Maxfield via RE-wrenches]

That's actually incorrect, Fortress totally does support closed-loop with the 
SMA Sunny Island inverters. Here is their integration guide. This has all of 
the instructions and coms wiring, etc. - 
https://learn.fortresspower.com/external/manual/sma/article/introduction-useful-links?p=dc8b9a9c1b3f410556835193e66f2257c662403dfb3da4056e618e954e8381d2

Thanks,

Kienan Maxfield
Technical sales, Technical Support

Green-Go Solar Distribution
kienan@dist.solar<https://kienan@dist.solar/>
(801) 631-5584 (Cell)
www.distribution.solar<https://www.distribution.solar/>




From: RE-wrenches  on behalf of Kirk 
Herander via RE-wrenches 
Sent: Saturday, September 16, 2023 8:33 AM
To: RE-wrenches 
Cc: Kirk Herander 
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Sunny Island/Fortress E-vault

Jerry,

Who is the maker of the Blue Planet/Outback SOC box interface you mention?

On Sat, Sep 16, 2023 at 9:30 AM Jerry Shafer via RE-wrenches 
mailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org>> 
wrote:
Mac, wrenches
SMA and fortress can only open loop and with a fixed temp sender its fine. Now 
on the blue planet and open loop with outback, you need a SOC box that they can 
make for you, it will interface with the blue planet and command the genny.
Fun times

On Sat, Sep 16, 2023, 6:04 AM Mac Lewis 
mailto:maclew...@gmail.com>> wrote:
Hi William,

Are you doing open loop or closed loop communication?  I'm not sure if Fortress 
can do a closed loop with SMA or not.

We struggled to get the open loop to work well with some Blue Ion batteries, 
not from a charging sense but from a sense of getting the auto gen start to 
trigger correctly.  Basically, the SOC algorithm was always way off.  For a 
while we were using an external voltage trigger and we could get the generator 
to start OK before BMS shutdown.  We have since added a Namaka box and are 
using the "Ext BMS" setting for battery type in the Sunny Island and it has 
been working very well.

I think the difficulty arises because the Sunny Island is so State-of-Charge 
centric and you can't manipulate the SOC algorithm without that Ext-BMS setting 
(and solid communication).  One weakness of the ext BMS setting is that it 
won't fall back on Voltage settings if battery communication goes down, but 
this is a weakness throughout closed loop communication for many manufacturers.

Let us know if there is a Fortress to SMA communication solution.





On Fri, Sep 15, 2023 at 11:11 PM Jerry Shafer via RE-wrenches 
mailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org>> 
wrote:
William, Wrenches
Yes I do and it does require some basic electronics to make it work correctly, 
you will need to remove the ttemp sender and make a resistor pack to simulate 
the 77 degree reading otherwise it will not charge properly, for the first one 
I used a breadboard to set the temp for what I wanted to see then build a more 
solid state shrink wrap resistor. Doing this will prevent undercharge by the 
SMA and your customer will be happy to see the full state of charge at the 
batteries.
OldSchool fun times



On Thu, Sep 14, 2023 at 2:12 PM William Miller via RE-wrenches 
mailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org>> 
wrote:

Friends:



I am commissioning an E-vault battery array to an existing SMA Sunny Island 
System.  Does anyone have any experience with this they could share?



Thanks.



William



Miller Solar

17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422

805-438-5600

www.millersolar.com<http://www.millersolar.com/>

CA Lic. 773985





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Re: [RE-wrenches] Inverter On/Off Switch use Outback FX

[Kienan Maxfield via RE-wrenches]

I was just about to suggest the same thing Mac suggested. Any 120 V relay would 
work. Just wire it in parallel with the auxiliary relay that is shutting the 
inverter off. When the AC input is energized, the relay closes, and your 
inverter turns on. I like using a relay that has a base. I trust the Eaton ice 
cube ones, but they’re kind of expensive. Here’s a cheaper one…

https://www.platt.com/p/0648927/abb/general-purpose-relay-11-blade-3pdt-120v-ac/abb1svr405612r2000

Base - 
https://www.platt.com/p/0736026/abb/socket-11-blade-cr-m/abb1svr405651r2000


These are the ones I stock on my work truck -  
https://www.platt.com/p/0147434/eaton/relay-120vac-coil-dpdt-10a-8-pin-plug-in-style/786685930169/cutd3rf2a

Base - 
https://www.platt.com/p/0384871/eaton/socket-octal-8-pin-screw-clamp-terminals/782114159767/cutd3pa2

I like these ones for a few reasons. One, they seem to be quality. Two, you can 
get them in a wide variety of coil voltages, including DC voltages. Three, I 
like the little control tab where you can manually turn the relay on if you 
ever have a reason to do that.

Thanks,
Kienan



Green-Go Solar Distribution LLC

Maxfield Solar LLC (installation and consulting company)

maxfieldso...@hotmail.com

(801) 631-5584(Cell)

www.distribution.solar

On Jul 21, 2023, at 6:29 AM, Jay via RE-wrenches 
 wrote:


I’ve never used one before.

Can you recommend one?

On Jul 21, 2023, at 5:12 AM, Mac Lewis via RE-wrenches 
 wrote:


To avoid power relay, how about adding a voltage sensing coil on the AC input 
and have an NC contactor that opens on voltage in series with the inverter 
shutdown circuit.  This should interrupt the inverter shutdown any time the 
generator is on.

On Thu, Jul 20, 2023 at 6:00 PM Ray Walters via RE-wrenches 
mailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org>> 
wrote:

I've done the AC relay idea as well, on Schneider that didn't have the easy off 
switching like the Outbacks.  The problems are:
1) Much bigger relay, much higher current on the control side as well.  It 
required a relay for the relay.
2) If there's a malfunction, you are messing with the main feeders for the home.
3) The inverters are still on with their no load draw, a pair of VFX inverters, 
would be 45 to 50 watts, so you could still shut the batteries down.

I think in your case without AGS, the trick might be to add a bypass control 
switch parallel to the relay, so they can manually turn the inverters back on.

Ray

On 7/20/2023 5:15 PM, Jay wrote:
Hi Ray

This house won’t have an AGS, manual start only.

And your comments exactly, having to wait until the next day when hopefully 
there is enough sun to charge the battery is iffy.

Or they could do the inverter bypass switch.

Again I’m back to why is it a worse idea to install a relay on the AC?

Thx

Jay

As to the sol ark which I never thought about it being in a sense an AC coupled 
system. IE if the inverter is off it won’t charge.
I guess you’ll have to install an external  battery charger?




On Jul 20, 2023, at 5:08 PM, Ray Walters via RE-wrenches 
 
wrote:



The aux off is only if the generator doesn't start.  You need to set the gen 
start voltage higher. Aux off is last ditch shut down, set for 44v for lead 
acid, or 47 to 49v, depending on the battery and inverter.   Hopefully DC 
coupled PV will raise the voltage enough to turn the inverters back on the next 
day.

This is my concern on Solark installs, I just noticed that the inverter won't 
pass through PV, if it hits its LVD set point.

On 7/20/2023 3:04 PM, jay via RE-wrenches wrote:
HI All,

I wanted to revisit this thread for one reason.

If you turn off the inverter at the remote on/off with the AUX relay, then 
starting the generator won’t have any impact as the inverter is off.
So someone will have to go and reset the AUX relay.

Vs

If you do a relay on the AC output, when you start the generator, it will start 
charging, raising the battery volts, causing the AUX relay to close AC output 
relay and you’ll have power in the house.

Am I missing something?

thanks

jay








Here is the last email I think:


Mac,



I think you've got an elegant solution to the problem. All you need is an 
inexpensive relay and to program the Aux output for loadshed. I believe 
shutting down the inverter with the remote on/off contacts is actually less 
stressful on the inverter than opening a relay or contactor on the load side.

Kent Osterberg
Blue Mountain Solar


On 7/11/2023 5:19 PM, Mac Lewis via RE-wrenches wrote:


Hello Wrenches,



I'm trying to solve an issue with an older Outback FX system.  It's a quad 
stack of Outback 3648 FX inverters and he has a couple of Fortress eVault and 
an unreliable generator. The LBCO setting can't go high enough to cut out 
before the eVaults cut out so he occasionally will have to direct charge the 
eVault to get things running again.I'd like to use a 12V Aux relay logic to 

Re: [RE-wrenches] active vs apparent power readings with solar

[Kienan Maxfield via RE-wrenches]

I’m not sure if I fully get what’s was going on or where he was measuring… all 
of the readings are low (below 1 kW) if he was messing at the meter after the 
household load has combined with the PV output, then this could make sense. The 
household loads could be using some apparent power, but the inverters are only 
putting out real power, so the PV is offsetting all the real power but there’s 
still some apparent power left, so the overall power factor is ridiculously low.

On the other hand, if all the loads are turned off and he’s really only 
measuring the PV output, then something wrong and I’d think it’s more likely 
that the measurements are wrong because I don’t see any way that the PV could 
put out such a bad power factor.

Here’s a hypothetical of what I mean in the first paragraph… if load A had a PF 
of 0.8, and it’s consuming 3 kW, then it’s apparent power is 3.75 kVA. If the 
PV is producing 2.8 kW at a PF of 1, then it’s producing 2.8 kVA. The net 
reading would then be 0.2 kW real power and 0.95 kVA. That’s a PF of 0.21.
If the PV increases to 2.9 kW, then the real power is 0.1 and apparent power is 
0.85 which is a power factor of 0.11

Hopefully this helps…

Thanks,
Kienan


Green-Go Solar Distribution LLC

Maxfield Solar LLC (installation and consulting company)

maxfieldso...@hotmail.com

(801) 631-5584(Cell)

www.distribution.solar

On Apr 29, 2023, at 11:03 AM, Darryl Thayer via RE-wrenches 
 wrote:


Hi all, if the micros are not producing power I would expect an extremely low 
power factor.  The power factor of all inverters is low not in use.  Make sure 
electrician is measuring during production.  My measurements are extra low for 
micro inverters.

On Thu, Apr 27, 2023, 4:11 PM August Goers via RE-wrenches 
mailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org>> 
wrote:
Hi Wrenches,

We have a residential site with grid tied solar where there is an electrician 
involved who has gotten into taking site readings and thinks there is a power 
factor problem. My gut on it is that there is some sort of measurement reading 
error, and that the power factor should be around 1.

The electrician is using a Fluke 3540FC power monitor and has provided a 
spreadsheet comparing active power to apparent power and calculating power 
factor. See below (you might have to open the image and zoom in to read it). 
This measurement was taken with a PV system running, presumably sending some 
power back to the grid.  Note that the phase B active power measurement is 
negative (PV exporting to grid) and that the apparent power is positive. This 
nets in a power factor that is crazy low of 0.05.

Does anyone have experience about whether a meter like this can properly 
measure these readings - maybe there is a setting error or it can't deal with 
negative readings?




Best,

August
Luminalt
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Underground fault finder

[Kienan Maxfield via RE-wrenches]

Dave,

The Thumper creates a high current, high voltage discharge. It uses a massive 
capacitor bank that you connect to the conductors on one side. When it works 
correctly, it'll cause a massive arc blast at the location of the fault. 
Assuming the fault is underground, it'll cause a big thumping sound. One 
technician walks as close to where he heard the thump as he can guess, then the 
other tech fires a second thump. The walking tech then readjusts his location 
and so on until it seems that he's right above where the thumping sound is 
coming from. Once that's determined to the best of your ability, you mark that 
spot and dig there. The wires will be all melted at that location. All the 
wires in that conduit will need to be spliced.

The thumper can be used for overhead lines too. You want to make sure that the 
fault isn't in an equipment room... the results might not be pleasant. You also 
want to make sure that all of the wires are isolated on both sides of the run.

I think that the TDR is a cooler tool (time domain reflectometer)... it'll give 
you an estimated distance (in terms of feet of wire) to the fault location. 
These two tools are actually best used together... use the TDR, and if it says 
the fault is 100 feet away, and you have a 200 foot run, then you'd know to 
position your tech as close as you can to the 100 foot mark, then use the 
thumper, and you can more quickly determine the exact location to dig. If the 
TDR says that the fault is at 200', and you only have a 200' run, then you know 
that it might be more risky to use the thumper, and you can go to the far side 
of the run and try to find the fault from that side.

I don't have the hands-on experience with either of these tools, but I've read 
a lot about them. The TDR should be able to detect most faults including a 
complete sheering of the line. It works by sending a pulse and reading the 
capacitive and inductive reflections. Whenever there is a splice, a short 
circuit, or an open circuit, it will send back a reflection and each different 
type of issue has a different type of reflection. The primary fault that it may 
not be able to see is a high resistance short circuit (like insulation 
breakdown or like a high Ω IRT), so it may not help find an intermittent ground 
fault.

Thanks,
Kienan




Green-Go Solar Distribution LLC

Maxfield Solar LLC (installation and consulting company)

maxfieldso...@hotmail.com

(801) 631-5584(Cell)

distribution.solar


From: RE-wrenches  on behalf of 
Drake Chamberlin via RE-wrenches 
Sent: Thursday, April 20, 2023 4:04 PM
To: RE-wrenches 
Cc: drake.chamber...@redwoodalliance.org 
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Underground fault finder


The thumper sounds like the one to use, but what does it destroy? Does it 
induce a much higher voltage on the line than regular line voltage? We are 
dealing with open circuit problems.

We can return to our original plan of digging up areas and checking for voltage 
on the lines with a voltage sensor.

Thanks,

Drake


Drake Chamberlin

Athens Electric LLC

Ohio Electrical Contractor’s License 44810

CO Master Electrician’s License 4526

NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional

---



On 2023-04-18 12:04, Brian Mehalic via RE-wrenches wrote:

Not sure about rental sources in your area, but there are two options:

1) An underground cable fault locator, aka a "thumper," which only works on 
direct buried cables. It is a destructive test (at the fault location), and 
should only be performed when there is a known fault in order to locate it. It 
requires "walking" the cable run with a sensing device to hear the "thump" 
generated by the high current/high voltage induced on the line.

2) A time domain reflectometer (TDR), which is sort of like radar in that low 
energy signals are reflected by changes in cable impedance; it is 
non-destructive, but also not as accurate in terms of the location (providing a 
cable length to the fault, rather than a "thump" at the actual fault location) 
and typically cannot see higher resistance (≈>200 MΩ) faults that the thumper 
can.

Brian Mehalic
NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installation Professional™ R031508-59
National Electrical Code® CMP-4 Member
(520) 204-6639

Solar Energy International
http://www.solarenergy.org


On Tue, Apr 18, 2023 at 8:27 AM Matt Sherald via RE-wrenches 
mailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org>> 
wrote:
Hi Drake,

I've rented a set-up from my electrical supply house.  I'd check to see if 
Scott Electric/Advantage Rental serves your part of Ohio.

If memory serves, it is two pieces of equipment that you need.  One to trace 
the line and a second to find the fault.

-Matt

On Tue, Apr 18, 2023 at 11:20 AM Drake Chamberlin via RE-wrenches 
mailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org>> 
wrote:
I understand that there is a tool that locates underground faults in
buried cables. No one in our area has one. There are high tech 

Re: [RE-wrenches] HomeGrid Battery Experience

[Kienan Maxfield via RE-wrenches]

Howie,

I don't have experience with HomeGrid, but I have a well respected friend 
(Jason Lerner) who loves them.

I have had awesome experiences with Fortress, and I have been looking for a 
chance to try HomeGrid as well. I think the stack idea is really cool!!

I know that this is extremely nit-picky... The only thing I've seen so far that 
I don't like about HomeGrid is that they use 15 cells in series instead of the 
standard 16 cells. This just means that the voltages will be lower than what 
I'm used to, and amperage will be a little higher. It's not a big deal, 
everything will still work great, but I like the higher voltage of a 16 cell 
bank. I just have all the numbers memorized for a 16 cell battery bank, and 
while you should always double check the manufacturer's instructions, it's nice 
to know off the top of your head if the numbers are appoximately correct.

When Fortress released their new inverterter that's essentially the same as the 
Solark (comes from the same factory), Solark got mad and they pushed out a new 
non-voluntary firmware update that broke the Modbus communication with 
Fortress. People didn't even know that the Firmware had changed. All they knew 
is that suddenly, their system wasn't working and it was shutting down 
randomly. It worked one day, didn't work the next. Fortress made a new firmware 
to communicate with Solark via canbus instead, so everything is working great 
again now. I don't know if Solark is finished with their vendeta against 
Fortress, but if Solark figures out a way to cause trouble again, then anyone 
with a Fortress-Solark combo could experience a coms disruption again... I 
really don't believe this was an accident on Solark's part. So, I guess what 
I'm trying to say is that Solark isn't mad at HomeGrid right now, so that might 
be a better bet. I personally don't use Solark. I'm leary of a company who 
pushes out Firmware updates that break things.

One question, does HomeGrid officially support combining new batteries with old 
batteries? Fortress does not, they say in their documentation that you 
shouldn't mix different ages of batteries together. I could be wrong, but my 
understanding is that it should actually be fine, but the SOC will be different 
on the different ages of batteries... particularly when the batteries are 
between 30% and 80%. They'll be more tight with eachother near the top and the 
bottom of their ranges, but they'll drift in the middle. So I think it's fine 
to mix them like that, but I'm wondering if HomeGrid specifically says it's 
okay or if they specifically say not to do it?

Thanks,
Kienan


Green-Go Solar Distribution LLC

Maxfield Solar LLC (installation and consulting company)

maxfieldso...@hotmail.com

(801) 631-5584(Cell)

distribution.solar


From: RE-wrenches  on behalf of 
Howie Michaelson via RE-wrenches 
Sent: Friday, April 14, 2023 3:03 PM
To: RE-wrenches 
Cc: Howie Michaelson 
Subject: [RE-wrenches] HomeGrid Battery Experience

Hi All,
I am looking to upgrade an offgrid client's battery bank from 2-volt Rolls 
KS17s to LiFePO4 batteries.  I'm basically looking at one Fortress eVault Max 
cabinet vs. a HomeGrid 4 stack option.  I have used the eVault Maxs before, and 
generally like them.  The 2 options are relatively equivalent cost and size.  
The advantage of the eVault is that I've used them with good success several 
times, and they have a better listed warranty (6,000 cycles vs. 4,000, slightly 
more favorable end of life capacity retention).  The reason I am considering 
the HomeGrid is because the promise of more incremental increases if that 
becomes a need (4.8 kWh blocks vs. 18.5 kWh) and the promised ease of adding up 
to another 4 blocks with apparently little or no effort compared to the need 
for a whole other large battery connection.  These will be matched up to an 
existing Sol-Ark 12k inverter. If anyone has any experience with the HomeGrid 
(positive or negative), or experience with both brands, I'd love to hear any 
feedback.  I hate installing equipment I haven't used before! 
Thanks,
Howie
Howie Michaelson
Sun Catcher
NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™
[https://drive.google.com/uc?id=1MQF8aTcFNnBR59ia5JAm1DsPHCxzNkPx=download]
Solar Electric Systems Sales & Service
802-272-0004
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Re: [RE-wrenches] replace part of rolls battery bank

[Kienan Maxfield via RE-wrenches]

Here’s my two cents,

If you do end up putting in two new batteries, and you leave everything wired 
the way it is, you’d better really watch the rest of the batteries that are in 
that string. The new batteries will have a lower internal resistance, so the 
two strings that are all old batteries will have a lower current. This means 
they charge much more slowly, and the one string that has the two new batteries 
in it will charge much more quickly. This increased current in the one string 
often results in overheating of the weakest  cells that are in the same string 
with the new cells. While charging, the old batteries that are in the same 
string as the new batteries will have a higher voltage because of this internal 
resistance.

The worst cells will get the hottest, then the heat will cause the internal 
resistance to increase, which will cause more heat. The batteries can seem good 
at first, but after a little while, this cycle can get dangerous. The last time 
that one of my clients tried this maneuver of replacing two “bad” L16s in the 
bank of otherwise “good” L16s, the plastic started melting and I believe it was 
close to a catastrophe.

Unless you’re running a laboratory experiment, I strongly recommend never 
mixing all the new batteries. Make sure you are fully aware of the hazards, do 
you know what to expect in terms of internal resistance is changing the 
charging characteristics.

Best of luck,
Kienan


Green-Go Solar Distribution LLC

Maxfield Solar LLC (installation and consulting company)

maxfieldso...@hotmail.com

(801) 631-5584(Cell)

www.distribution.solar

On Apr 5, 2023, at 7:34 PM, frenergy via RE-wrenches 
 wrote:



Wrenches,

I feel compelled to chime in here.  Ten years ago, we installed 24, 
Rolls 2-KS-33P, 2 volt batteries for the shop.  Though they were in a 
climate-controlled environment and maybe went to 50% SOC a dozen times over 10 
years, usually ranged 75-100% SOC, we had the first failure just before 7 year 
warranty ended.  Unfortunately soon after there were two more failures we had 
to pay for, then most recently 2-3 more were very difficult to maintain good 
SGs and were sagging more in voltage when loaded. We tried several EQs and then 
deep discharges and hard and long re-charges to try and de-sulphate without 
luck.  So we recently replaced the pack.  We know how to care for FLA 
batteries, been doing so since the 80's.

I'm not faulting Rolls/Surrette, Steve Higgins tried to help, maybe 
I should take some responsibility but the reason I am sharing this bad 
experience (I was expecting 15++ years from this kind of battery) is at some 
point after installation I checked the date codes and found there were 5, count 
them FIVE different dates, one or two of which were more than a year old when 
purchased. Ouch.  Another expensive lesson learned.  Hopefully Rolls has a 
better handle now-a-days on their post manufacture supply chain.  Do you think 
the different distributors that sent their "back-in-the-corner" unclaimed 
2-KS-33p's to my distributor to make up my pack had their 2V chargers floating 
the batteries all that time? me neither.

Moral of the story: Check date codes on that big beautiful pack of 
lead you're ready to load onto the truck. I'm now making it clear to our 
distributor that I won't be loading batteries on my truck unless dates codes 
match, which they did on the replacement SimpliPHI's.

Bill

Feather River Solar Electric
Bill Battagin, Owner
4291 Nelson St.(shipping)
5575 Genesee Rd. (USPS, UPS)
Taylorsville, CA 95983
530.284.1925 Office/ 530.258.1641 Cell
CA Lic 874049
Solar powered since 1982

On 4/4/2023 4:42 PM, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar via RE-wrenches wrote:
Hurts my head !  Agree that you will have more trips to this house after the 
next one. This is most likely not going to get you 2 more years. All of the 
wiring is good, clean, and tight?  Who really knows how long it could last? 
Probably fine thru summer and fall.

Much better with the next L16 size up and 24 (2V) cells. Lot's of capacity 
choices there from Rolls and others.

Almost Cheers time !



Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar
"we go where powerlines don't"
http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/
e-mail  offgridso...@sti.net
text 209 813 0060


On 2023-04-04 4:21 pm, Ray Walters via RE-wrenches wrote:

So the 24 batteries are actually 72 individual cells that are trying to charge 
equally, with essentially no BMS.  Its not just max strings, but max # of 
cells, and that's double my maximum.

You mentioned they use it pretty hard, so that's the other big part of how long 
L16s will last.  If the customer is barely using the available capacity, I've 
seen batteries last closer to 10 years, but in this case, I think the remaining 
cells are close to finished. I'm into using batteries for as long as possible 
as well, but customer and installer suffering come 

Re: [RE-wrenches] Fortress Battery Heater

[Kienan Maxfield via RE-wrenches]

I've wanted to find a thermostat that could handle DC Voltage for a while now, 
but I haven't done the research. What I've wanted to do is to tap right off the 
PV input, through a thermostat, into a simple resistive heater. That way, it 
won't drain the battery to warm the array. If the resistive heater is designed 
for 120V AC, then it should work pretty well with 3 60 cell modules in series. 
I'd want to actually do the math with the Voc and Vmp and temperatures before 
suggesting an actual design, but shooting from the hip, If you have 5 or 6 
modules in series, then just wire 2 heating pads in series. If you have 10 to 
12 modules in series, just put 3 heating pads in series. You get the gist. I 
think the only difficult part to really figure out is the thermostat. I don't 
know if anyone makes a thermostat that would work with the DC voltage. 
Otherwise, you'd need a DC relay or contactor, but then you'd need a source for 
the control voltage...

Anyways, just some food for thought. If anyone has ideas about a high voltage 
DC thermostat, I'd love to hear about it.

Thanks,
Kienan


Green-Go Solar Distribution LLC
Maxfield Solar LLC (installation and consulting company)
maxfieldso...@hotmail.com
(801) 631-5584 (Cell)

From: RE-wrenches  on behalf of 
Chris Schaefer via RE-wrenches 
Sent: Thursday, February 9, 2023 11:01 AM
To: RE-wrenches 
Cc: Chris Schaefer 
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Fortress Battery Heater

Ray,

I'd suggest reaching out to the Fortress techie's as they just introduced a 
heater product for their enclosure products. While I don't believe they have a 
unit specif to the eVault but you should be able to make it work.

Christopher

On Wed, Feb 8, 2023 at 6:43 PM Jerry Shafer via RE-wrenches 
mailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org>> 
wrote:
Pet heater have worked for me, I air gap a sealed heater box under the battery, 
thermostat inside the top of the battery.  It's slow and low power but does the 
trick
Fun times

On Wed, Feb 8, 2023, 3:05 PM Ray Walters via RE-wrenches 
mailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org>> 
wrote:
Hi All;

I have a fresh Fortress Evault installation with a Solark inverter.  The
batteries are indoors in the center of the house, but the customer is
not there full time, so the battery is unfortunately going below
freezing.  What are the best options for setting up a heating system for
the E Vault?

Here are ideas that I have not tried, but am considering:
1) add a 240 v, 1000 w baseboard heater in the room near the battery
that is wired to only run off the generator.  Run the generator until
the heat comes up, and then hopefully after 30 minutes, the battery
would begin accepting a charge.

2) Add an 120 vac heating blanket under the evault that would be wired
to a thermostat, but also have a relay control from the PV system, so
that the heater would only operate when the sun was out, and the battery
was below 50F.   I don't quite know how to set this up with the Solark's
load controls.

I've considered some DC options, but they don't make much sense, since
the inverter has to be on to charge from PV anyway.

The long term plan is for the client to finish the insulation, and sheet
rock, and add a gas wall heater in there as needed.

Thanks,

Ray Walters
Remote Solar
in the Colorado mountain cold.

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--

Chris Schaefer’s
[http://www.solarandwindfx.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/01/Solar-Wind-FX-Logo.png]
Tel/Fax 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870
5115 South Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424

Re: [RE-wrenches] Remote battery disconnects

[Kienan Maxfield via RE-wrenches]

Hello all,

I have been an off-grid specialist for 12 years now, and I have never seen or 
heard of a charge controller blowing itself up when it was disconnected from 
the battery while it was in steady state. What I mean is that if it's in bulk 
mode, or absorb mode, or float mode, and the battery disconnect is suddenly 
opened, nothing has ever happened. And this actually has happened a lot of 
times in my career. Most of my clients have a DIY attitude, so if they think 
something is wrong, they'll start flipping breakers off randomly until they 
have shut everything down in order to "reset" the system, and then they turn it 
all back on, and if the problem persists, they feel like they've tried 
something, so then they call. I've had helpers who just can't remember which 
breaker to shut off first. Since I've never seen or heard of an actual case 
where this happened, I don't worry about it to much.

I have seen something similar blow up an Outback FM80 once. The charge 
controller was 7 years old at the time. I was watching the whole time. The 
system was shut down when we arrived, then the PV breaker was turned on, then 
the battery breaker was turned on momentarily, then the battery breaker was 
shut back off. The charge controller went into the startup procedure, and it 
went to sweep the IV curve, and as it did, it was pumping all that power into 
it's capacitors and it had nowhere to go. I watched the voltage on the screen 
skyrocket and then it suddenly burned out with a small pop. The charge 
controller was stuck in the startup, and it wasn't able to stop producing 
current. If the battery breaker had been left on while it stabilized, then it 
was shut off, it would have been fine. So if you turn on the system, don't 
suddenly trip the disconnect until it has been on for a minute.

Also, inverters have capacitors that are much, much, much larger than the 
capacitors in the charge controller, so when a main battery disconnect is 
thrown and the charge controller is connected to an inverter

Now, I completely avoid cheap charge controllers (Amazon charge controllers, 
etc.). I don't touch them with a 10 foot pole. I have seen so many DIYers 
reject my advice, install a cheap one, and have it burn up within a couple of 
years or less. I wouldn't be surprised if suddenly disconnecting the battery 
would be a likely cause of failure in these cases.

Also, with any quality brand, if this somehow did happen, they'll still honor 
it under their warranty, and this will be a rare occurrence.

William said that SolArk can't handle having the breaker thrown while it's 
charging the battery, so there are definitely exceptions. I've never used 
SolArk, but with everything else I've heard about them, I'm really not too 
surprised. I'm not faulting SolArk, and I'm not a SolArk hater, I just know 
that their hands are somewhat bound by the real manufacturer who is in China. 
SolArk only has limited control of their product. But as boB from MidNite 
pointed out, it all equipment can and should be designed with this in mind. 
Fuses will blow, breakers will get tripped, and any quality manufacturer is 
going to take that into consideration. They can take the low road and simply 
plan on replacing some under warranty, or the can engineer the product to 
withstand it.

One last note about codes, there are some codes that I hate and try to avoid, 
but I also personally know 2 or 3 of the people on the code panels. There are 
some people on the code panels who are not kind to our industry, but there are 
a couple of people on those panels who really are our advocates. If someone is 
on the code panel, they are actually limited in how they can suggest new 
changes to the codes, they can only promote public inputs that are submitted by 
people like us, so even if it feels like a waist of time, it really is 
important that we all submit our ideas and thoughts through the official 
pathways so that our advocates who really want to promote our best interests 
have something they can leverage for us. To those here who do help with the 
codes and help to advocate for us, THANK YOU SO MUCH!!!

Thanks,
Kienan


Green-Go Solar Distribution LLC
Maxfield Solar LLC (installation and consulting company)
maxfieldso...@hotmail.com
(801) 631-5584(Cell)

From: RE-wrenches  on behalf of 
bob--- via RE-wrenches 
Sent: Wednesday, February 1, 2023 8:06 PM
To: RE-wrenches 
Cc: b...@midnitesolar.com 
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Remote battery disconnects


 SPDs or (MOVs) on the PV input side of a charge controller are not wired to 
snub excessive PV voltage.

They are wired from PV+ to GND and the other from PV- to GND and only the two 
in series, at double the
MOV clamp voltage would have any effect on clamping the PV+/PV- voltage.
SPDs are wired to keep the charge controller's insulation system to below the 
Hi-Pot voltage the unit is
tested with.  i.e.  They are wired for common-mode and not differential.  

Re: [RE-wrenches] VillaGrid Lithium Titanium Batteries

[Kienan Maxfield via RE-wrenches]

Howie,

I have never heard about them, but I am interested. If you get any more 
information, I'd love to hear about it. Do they do 48V batteries? or an AC ESS?

Are there spec sheets available?

I've been able to find very little information about them.

Thanks,
Kienan

Green-Go Solar Distribution LLC
Maxfield Solar LLC (installation and consulting company)
maxfieldso...@hotmail.com
(801) 631-5584 (Cell)

From: RE-wrenches  on behalf of 
Howie Michaelson via RE-wrenches 
Sent: Monday, January 23, 2023 7:00 PM
To: RE-wrenches 
Cc: Howie Michaelson 
Subject: [RE-wrenches] VillaGrid Lithium Titanium Batteries

Has anyone had any experience with the VillaGrid Lithium Titanium batteries?  
They are supposedly usable in below zero temperatures, which of course the LFP 
batteries are not.  They also apparently have a 20 year 10,000 cycle warranty 
(not that I really put much stock in being able to exercise a warranty even 15 
years out). They are doing their own distribution at this point, but the sales 
person wouldn't tell me pricing until I sat in on a more formal presentation, 
which tells me I'm not going to be overly thrilled with the price point.  They 
are very new on the market, but just thought I'd ask.
Thanks,
Howie
Howie Michaelson
Sun Catcher
NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™
[https://drive.google.com/uc?id=1MQF8aTcFNnBR59ia5JAm1DsPHCxzNkPx=download]
Solar Electric Systems Sales & Service
802-272-0004
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Low Frequency transformer off-grid inverter options

[Kienan Maxfield via RE-wrenches]

Mac,

Victron would work quite well as well. The biggest drawback is that they don't 
have a single unit for 120/240, but stacking two units works great and they 
have been really good for surge capacity in my opinion.

I admit that I am biased. I've been using Victron for 6 years, and 3 years ago. 
About 3 years ago, I switched away from Outback and Schneider and started 
primarily using Victron. When I did, my equipment failure rate plummeted. In my 
own experience, Victron has been significantly more reliable, so I've become a 
real Victron advocate. Obviously, the other brands do have some advantages. 
Outback's online platform (optics RE) is the best for making it easy to adjust 
settings remotely from any device like your phone. Contact me off-list if you 
are interested in Victron, and I'll give you a lot more info about Victron.

Thanks,
Kienan Maxfield


Green-Go Solar Distribution LLC
Maxfield Solar LLC (installation and consulting company)
maxfieldso...@hotmail.com<mailto:maxfieldso...@hotmail.com>
(801) 631-5584 (Cell)

From: RE-wrenches  on behalf of Mac 
Lewis via RE-wrenches 
Sent: Saturday, January 14, 2023 9:20 AM
To: RE-wrenches 
Cc: Mac Lewis 
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Low Frequency transformer off-grid inverter options

Fully appreciate everyone's input.

The Midnite Rosie sounds interesting for sure.  Midnite is a great company with 
great support.  Smart people answer the phone and that really counts for a lot.

How are you getting your hands on these?  I can't seem to find much info, no 
spec sheets etc.  None of my vendors have them and Midnite is estimating Apr 
2023 as the release date.



On Sat, Jan 14, 2023 at 8:34 AM William Bryce via RE-wrenches 
mailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org>> 
wrote:
I run the XW6848 in my shop. When running my CNC plasma table the XW will 
shutdown due to exceeding its output rating if it is a long cut on metal when 
the 4HP compressor kicks on.
I also have a Midnite Solar Rosey, both are connected to the same battery so 
it's an equal comparison. The Rosy inverter will surge right through and finish 
the job, the XW is not in  the same league when comparing surge capability.

 A bonus is that the Rosey is really quiet as it does not have that big heavy 
transformer making noise under heavy load. It is easy to install as it is not 
as heavy. So far it's a game changer in regards to inverter hardware that I 
have tested.

On Fri, Jan 13, 2023 at 9:54 PM Chris Sparadeo via RE-wrenches 
mailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org>> 
wrote:
I have a client with a large woodworking shop…cabinet table saw, large 20” 240V 
bench planer, chop saws, compressors and a vacuum system. A single Sol Ark 15K 
takes care of these loads flawlessly. It seems that that inductive load snag 
with the smaller models has been resolved with the 15K.

Best,

Chris

On Fri, Jan 13, 2023 at 7:34 PM Glenn Burt via RE-wrenches 
mailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org>> 
wrote:
According to a seminar I just attended, the new Midnite Solar Rosie will...

-Glenn
Sent from my 'smart'phone, so please excuse typos and spelling errors.

-- Original message--
From: Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar via RE-wrenches
Date: Fri, Jan 13, 2023 3:55 PM
To: RE-wrenches;
Cc: Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar;
Subject:Re: [RE-wrenches] Low Frequency transformer off-grid inverter options

There is not anything I know of that will out surge XW pro 6948. A great 
monitoring platform and much better support/installer training in the last 18 
months. Perfect for a shop with unknown peak surges.



Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar
"we go where powerlines don't"
http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/
e-mail  offgridso...@sti.net<mailto:offgridso...@sti.net>
text 209 813 0060


On 2023-01-13 11:57 am, Jay via RE-wrenches wrote:


Hi Mac

The radian is low voltage transformer
Based. Has hella surge capacity

I would consider what web based monitoring system he wants and go with that 
platform.

Regardless of system I'd install soft start/vfd on the larger units. Just 
easier on everything.

The solark 12 doesn't seem to be good for larger loads and doesn't do out of 
balance well, and limited to 6kw per phase. The new 15 might be better, not 
sure. Numerous YouTube videos showing side by side vs XW and radian. Both run 
stuff over their rating which the SolA won't run even though its under its 
rating.

Good luck

Jay








On Jan 13, 2023, at 11:34 AM, Mac Lewis via RE-wrenches > 
wrote:<mailto:%3cre-wrenc...@lists.re-wrenches.org>

Hello Wrenches,

I have a new client that has ran a pretty decent wood shop for about 10 years 
on a Magnum 4448.  He's got some large loads, planers, saws, compressors 
vacuums etc.  They are really nice, heavy duty pieces of equipment.  Amazingly, 
the Magnum has been able to start these loads for the most part for 10 years, 
but he has reported that it has gotten worse lately (could be a load issu

Re: [RE-wrenches] Fortress Battery Problems

[Kienan Maxfield via RE-wrenches]

Ray,

I'm curious if your Fortress system is doing better now. Fortress used to do 
their support using a platform that was open to the public. It allowed anyone 
who wanted to see what they had suggested to other people. I've seen them 
recommend a one-time charge of up to 56V to get everything in sync. When 
charging above the normal charge voltage, it's advisable to use a low current.

As far as the master/slave configureation... the batteries don't control how 
much they discharge/recharge. They shut themselves off for certain protective 
reasons, and they balance themselves when they're above a certain voltage, but 
other than that, they don't have any control. The master/slave is for 
communication and safety purposes only.

Thanks,
Kienan


Green-Go Solar Distribution LLC
Maxfield Solar LLC (installation and consulting company)
maxfieldso...@hotmail.com
(801) 631-5584 (Cell)

From: RE-wrenches  on behalf of Ray 
Walters via RE-wrenches 
Sent: Wednesday, November 16, 2022 1:14 PM
To: re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org 
Cc: Ray Walters 
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Fortress Battery Problems


I finally heard back from Fortress, I'm going to try their suggestion of 
"equalizing" the batteries at 55.5 v, and adjust some settings.  I'll report 
back to the list on what I come up with.  This is an interesting application: 
quad stack of VFX inverters with Midnite CCs.   Using the aux out on the 
Classic to control a relay to turn on/off the inverters for LVD, since Outback 
programming (like Schneider) won't allow LVD settings above 48v.

Ray

On 11/16/2022 12:40 PM, Chris Sparadeo via RE-wrenches wrote:
Hi Ray,

I would suggest pushing the latest firmware update to both units.

https://www.fortresspower.com/firmware/

re: tech support…

I have had good luck speaking directly to Tom:

Thomas Honey
Fortress Power
Applications Engineering
(215) 613-4318 x4318
t...@fortresspower.com

I agree that Fortress’ Discord, online ticketing system and phone support are 
subpar. Call me old school, but an answered phone call when on-site is a must 
have feature of any manufacturer.

Hope this helps,

-Chris

On Wed, Nov 16, 2022 at 2:20 PM Howie Michaelson via RE-wrenches 
mailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org>> 
wrote:
Hi Ray,
I have been having a difficult time communicating with Fortress as well.  I 
filed a support ticket several times and only got a response a couple of days 
later asking another question that was easily answered, but then do not receive 
any reply to that without filing another support ticket, which again takes days 
for them to respond to.  Very unsatisfactory and frustrating after having 
invested in 7 eVault Max for a long time client. Don't have any suggestions for 
you.
Howie Michaelson
Sun Catcher
NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™
[https://drive.google.com/uc?id=1MQF8aTcFNnBR59ia5JAm1DsPHCxzNkPx=download]
Solar Electric Systems Sales & Service
802-272-0004


On Wed, Nov 16, 2022 at 2:02 PM Ray Walters via RE-wrenches 
mailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org>> 
wrote:
Greetings Fellow Wrenches;

Based on glowing reports from the RE list, I finally used Fortress for a
battery replacement for a long time customer. Overall, it seems to be a
better solution than others I've seen. However, we are having issues.
First the two batteries are supposed to be linked together in a master/
slave configuration, but they charge and discharge unevenly, and have
SOC often 20% different.   Batteries are connected to a common buss with
equal length 4/0 cables.

I've been truly disappointed with Fortress customer support. First, I've
called multiple times over the past two weeks, and never got through to
anyone.  Their online support system is quite flawed as well, and I had
a very difficult time even setting up a support ticket.  Now I can't
even log in to view the support ticket, and I've only received one email
back asking if I had properly paralleled the batteries.

Has anyone else had a hard time with Fortress support?  Does anyone have
a direct contact?  Customer is beyond pissed now, after almost 2 weeks
hearing nothing, and having spent tens of thousands.

Thanks;

Ray Walters
Remote Solar

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Re: [RE-wrenches] Fortress Battery Problems

[Kienan Maxfield via RE-wrenches]

Hey all, I really like Fortress and I’ve had amazingly good experiences with 
their support. I have had 3 different interactions with Fortress technical 
support. They’ve supported me very very well. They don’t have a good phone 
number for me to call, but I fill out an online ticket and then the appropriate 
support agent calls me. Sure, occasionally I’m in a place with no internet, but 
then, there’s probably no cell phone coverage either.

Overall, their technical support was the most helpful team I’ve ever 
experienced. Outback Power has some really awesome techs (like Lones Tuss) but 
when you have to deal with the low level techs (which is most of the time), 
it’s pretty bad. I haven’t had good experiences with Schneider tech support or 
MidNite tech support. I’ve dealt with many other companies, and I felt like 
Fortress had the best tech support I’ve had to deal with.

Cheers,
Kienan

Green-Go Solar Distribution LLC
Maxfield Solar LLC (installation and consulting company)
maxfieldso...@hotmail.com
(801) 631-5584 (Cell)



On Dec 12, 2022, at 9:10 AM, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar via RE-wrenches 
 wrote:



Fortress has been great for me/and my clients and they have webinars all the 
time.Not sure why you guy's are not going to them?

Below is one this week.

-

Thank you for registering for "Holly Jolly Webinar 2022".

Join Fortress Power West Coast Sales Director, Alex Lepore, for a festive and 
informational Holly Jolly Webinar! This webinar will discuss the following 
topics:
- Battery overview
- Supply challenges and product availability
- Fortress Power in 2023 and beyond

Please send your questions, comments and feedback to: 
sa...@fortresspower.com




Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar
"we go where powerlines don't"
http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/
e-mail  offgridso...@sti.net
text 209 813 0060


On 2022-12-11 10:20 pm, Roland - RES via RE-wrenches wrote:

Aloha Jeremy,

I would like to join this call.

We have numerous Fortress systems installed.

Sent from a IPhone, with touch screen keys on the fly. Please excuse shortcuts 
and typos.

Roland Shackelford
NABCEP CERTIFIED PV INSTALLER
President
Renewable Energy Services (RES), Inc.
Mobile:  808-938-9239
www.renewablenergy.com

On Dec 1, 2022, at 1:22 PM, Jeremy Coxon via RE-wrenches 
 wrote:

HI Wrenches,

A couple of weeks ago this thread came up - main topic was lack of tech support 
from Fortress.  A few days later I was contacted by Marc Zeitlin, Fortress's
Regional sales manager Midwest.  We haven't used Fortress yet, but I basically 
reiterated the concerns that were expressed on this thread and said that I'd be 
interested once they had their Tech support issues ironed out.  To my surprise 
Marc really took that feedback and ran with it all the way up to offering me 
and those of you that are interested a call with their CEO and anyone else we 
would like to talk to.  I offered to send this note to the list and invite you 
all to join the call.  I would think we'd want to keep the numbers manageable, 
but we can figure that out.

I don't have a horse in the race and have no association with Fortress, but I 
thought it might be a really good opportunity for those of you that have more 
experience with Fortress to get a direct line with their CEO and main tech 
folks so that we can hopefully improve things for all.  Marc has proposed 
Thursday January 5th at 10am.  Let me know directly at 
jco...@sunwindpowerinc.com if you're 
interested and I'll pass your name along so they can get this set up.

Best Regards,
Jeremy Coxon NABCEP # 091308-21
MWBE Certified

<2022 Logo Blue Tagline 2x no phone - small.jpg>
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There are 

Re: [RE-wrenches] Optics will not accept remote programming

[Kienan Maxfield via RE-wrenches]

I've seen something similar if there was a firmware mismatch... the mate3s had 
a newer firmware and the inverters had an older firmware. As was stated before, 
make sure that everything has the latest firmware.

Otherwise, I wouldn't know where to go after that.

Cheers,
Kienan


Maxfield Solar
maxfieldso...@hotmail.com<mailto:maxfieldso...@hotmail.com>
(801) 631-5584 (Cell)

From: RE-wrenches  on behalf of 
William Miller via RE-wrenches 
Sent: Friday, April 22, 2022 2:13 PM
To: RE-wrenches 
Cc: William Miller 
Subject: [RE-wrenches] Optics will not accept remote programming


Friends:



I installed a Radian AC coupled system a few months ago.  We are trying to dial 
it in to work with a Blue Planet battery system.



I cannot make any adjustments remotely through Optics.  Once in a while if I 
reset the gateway I can change one setting, but rarely does it succeed.  The 
little wheel turns for a couple of minutes and then I get a failure dialog box.



I was told to power cycle the Mate.  This did not solve the problem.



Has anyone else experienced this?



Thanks for any input.



William



Miller Solar

17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422

805-438-5600

www.millersolar.com<http://www.millersolar.com/>

CA Lic. 773985




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Re: [RE-wrenches] Lithium battery fires

[Kienan Maxfield]

Here's my 2¢...

LiFePO4 And NMC are Both technically types of "Lithium-Ion" batteries. Neither 
one has pure lithium, they have ions of lithium. That being said, I agree that 
they shouldn't even really be in the same category. They have some shared 
traits and some different traits.

It is incorrect to say that LiFePO4 (aka LiFe or LFP) is "non-flammable." That 
being said, it is very difficult to start a LiFePO4 on fire, and it doesn't 
give much flame, mostly just a bunch of toxic smoke. Therefore, a LiFePO4 fire 
likely wouldn't spread and start a structure on fire. You can find people on 
youtube who do successfully get it to burn, but it's not easy.

The biggest danger with LiFePO4 is the high current & arc potential. But even 
at that, at the same capacity, the NMC has quite a lot more available amps in 
an arc flash scenario.

I think it's possible to have a very good safety record with NMC (like Tesla 
perhaps), and it's probably one bad brand that'll have a lot of fires that will 
ruin it for everyone else. But NMC will never be as good as LiFePO4. For one 
thing, a fire could start near the NMC battery and catch the battery on fire, 
then the battery fire is the reason that the fire spread to the rest of the 
building... or rather, the battery was the only reason they couldn't extinguish 
the fire. There are lots of videos of people trying to extinguish a fire from 
one of these more unstable chemistries... it rarely goes well.

I don't claim that LiFePO4 is entirely safe, but it shouldn't be in the same 
category as NMC. Not to mention that it has about double the lifespan.

Unfortunately, I doubt that insurance companies will get the difference between 
these two batteries, but I think that should be our big banner... they are not 
the same battery, and if the one fails, the other should not be identified with 
the one.


I don't think that any one brand of LiFePO4 is significantly safer than any 
other because the chemistry itself is so stable, but there are other important 
reasons to choose quality. The biggest is BMS problems. I've had big BMS 
problems, and it makes me pretty picky about which brands I'll choose going 
forward. I have 4 brands that I currently trust... but I don't feel like I need 
to try to laud certain brands or badmouth others... just be sure that you use 
one that you trust.

Thanks,
Kienan


Maxfield Solar
maxfieldso...@hotmail.com<mailto:maxfieldso...@hotmail.com>
(801) 631-5584 (Cell)

From: RE-wrenches  on behalf of Dan 
Fink 
Sent: Saturday, March 12, 2022 3:41 PM
To: RE-wrenches 
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Lithium battery fires

Safer LiFePO4 vs. "lithium ion" NMC formulation for ESS is also important to 
carefully explain to customers--especially since the UN 3480/3481 hazmat 
shipping labels and regulations group them both into the same category of 
"Lithium Ion" and that's what stamped and placarded on the box. Ran into this 
with a floatplane transport situation for a remote location. Had to longline 
them under a heli a week later on a separate trip with the other dangerous 
stuff even though they were LiFePO4 and not NMC.

Dan Fink
Owner, Buckville Energy Consulting LLC
IREC Certified Instructor for PV and Small Wind Installation
NABCEP Certified PV System Inspector
NABCEP PV Associate
d<mailto:dan.f...@greendustrialtraining.com>anbo...@gmail.com<mailto:anbo...@gmail.com>
970-672-4342

On Sat, Mar 12, 2022 at 1:37 PM Sindelar Solar 
mailto:al...@sindelarsolar.com>> wrote:
I would start by choosing my lithium technology carefully. I have only 
installed Blue Ion LiFP batteries, and have relied on Blue Planet's assurances 
that lithium ferrous sulfate technology is non-flammable and thus safe in 
residential applications.
Allan


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[RE-wrenches] Sunny Island Troubleshooting

[Kienan Maxfield]

Hello all,

I'm troubleshooting an interesting case. It's a DC coupled SMA Sunni Island 
system with two of the 6048 SI's. I think that the both of the SI's are fried, 
and I think I know why, but there's a strange twist so I thought I'd ask if 
anyone here has any insight...

So this is a DC Power system, and whoever was building these at DC power made a 
mistake on the Main wire that connects to the battery, so the connection came 
loose. When I looked at it for my client, I saw that there is an internal 
capacitor in one of the SI's that is blown. I assumed that the loose connection 
cause voltage spikes from the charge controller to damage the inverter. But 
then I repaired the wiring, and everything powered up fine, and the SI system 
was putting out perfect power. Then, two days later, I looked at it again 
because the customer was going to come pick it up, and the inverters were 
apparently dead. I tried resetting them, but it seems like there's just 
nothing. The screen won't come on, it won't make any noise, etc. There is good 
voltage on the DC in terminals. So my question is why they both came on, and 
why they both fried after the problem was fixed. I mean, it makes sense that 
they were damaged from the voltage spikes from loose wiring, but I don't 
understand why they would come on and then finish frying with no load...

Other question, I know that with outback inverters, you can normally repair the 
inverter by replacing a board that is a fraction of the cost of the inverter. 
Is this so with SMA SI's? And does anyone have a recommendation on how to 
troubleshoot at a board level, or where to source the boards? I did already 
tell the customer that I think his inverters will need to be replaced, but just 
hoping to make sure I don't overlook something first...

Thanks,
Kienan


Maxfield Solar
maxfieldso...@hotmail.com<mailto:maxfieldso...@hotmail.com>
(801) 631-5584 (Cell)
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Lithium battery in non cycling use

[Kienan Maxfield]

Jay,

I believe that the secret to long LiFePO4 life is low charging voltage. (Of 
course, the temperature, and depth of discharge do make a big difference as 
well, but you probably can't control the temperature, and you already said it's 
not cycling, so DOD isn't an issue either.) There are two problems with just 
going and reducing charging voltages...

  1.  As has been mentioned, cell balancing might not work (depending on BMS)
  2.  BMS calibration errors and/or battery monitor calibration errors may occur

I have had this issue once, I tried to reduce the absorb & float voltage to 
somewhere around 53.2 volts for a non-cycling LiFePO4 battery. I don't remember 
the exact setting I used. This should keep the battery well over 90% full 
(probably around 95%) and the client figured that even storing the battery as 
low as 90% full was a good trade-off in order to extend the shelf life. The 
only issue is that this specific internal BMS calibrates when the batteries 
reach a voltage of at least 56 volts, so the BMS slowly kept reporting a lower 
and lower battery percentage. I was unaware of this, and the client didn't 
notice, but then the BMS shut the system shut down due to "low SOC".

So to sum it up, as far as the chemistry, if you could keep it around 90% SOC 
for non-cycling use, that would be awesome for shelf life, but because of 
BMS-related problems, that's probably not going to work well. So here's my own 
unconventional answer that I've never heard anywhere else, that I have decided 
is probably best for non-cycling use...


  1.  Set your float and absorb fairly low.
  2.  Set an automatic EQ cycle (perhaps once a month) to charge at a voltage 
that's high enough to calibrate the BMS and balance the cells (depending on the 
brand, probably around 56V?)
  3.  Don't let anyone else look at your settings, because nobody will 
understand why you're "equalizing" a lithium battery, and they'll think you're 
ignorant and you don't understand the lithium chemistry.

Disclaimer: consult battery manufacturer because I don't want any liability . 
But honestly, it would be good to know what the BMS calibration voltage is, as 
well as what voltage it starts balancing the cells.

Caveat: the only issue with this that I can see is if the BMS needs a 
significant time to balance the cells. In this scenario, it would be better to 
get the battery up to the calibration voltage for just a couple of minutes to 
calibrate the SOC, and then go down to the balancing voltage for a while, then 
go back to the storage voltage. Unfortunately, I don't know any way to have 
this kind of cycle happen once a month...

Thanks,
Kienan

Maxfield Solar
maxfieldso...@hotmail.com<mailto:maxfieldso...@hotmail.com>
(801) 631-5584 (Cell)

From: RE-wrenches  on behalf of 
Darryl Thayer 
Sent: Wednesday, February 23, 2022 10:10 PM
To: RE-wrenches 
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Lithium battery in non cycling use

Hi Jay I am not sure what non-cycling use is, I have mentioned before in my 
experience where a cell in the string can become lower in charge and the string 
loses capacity in discharge because the BMS shuts off the complete battery when 
the troubled cell reaches low voltage cut out. To prevent this, a string should 
go tho top balance.  This is of course true for both cycling and little cycling.

On Wed, Feb 23, 2022 at 9:36 AM Jay 
mailto:jay.pe...@gmail.com>> wrote:
Hi all the lithium experts.

Are there any issues with using LFP lithium in non cycling battery backup mode.
Or specific settings, brands etc that should be considered when designing for 
GTBB, non cycling.

Thanks

Jay
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Outback_Inverter firmware mismatch

[Kienan Maxfield]

I have had this problem, on the job site I had, it was caused by a Wi-Fi router 
to close to the equipment. I moved all the Wi-Fi equipment away, and all of my 
issues were resolved. The Wi-Fi access point that I used to connect the Mate to 
Optics also caused problems.

I tried replacing all of the cables with shielded cables, and routing them away 
from AC lines, and it did not help. I had to move the Wi-Fi equipment.

Thanks,
Kienan




From: RE-wrenches  on behalf of 
Roland - RES 
Sent: Sunday, March 28, 2021 10:04:36 AM
To: RE-wrenches 
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Outback_Inverter firmware mismatch

Aloha Wayne,

We too have been plagued by this issue, that has been extremely frustrating for 
us and our clients.

The newest 1.4.6 firmware is supposed to fix this issue. We have updated our 
systems with this and so far so good. However because of the sometimes long 
delays between the faults we can't be certain.

Prior to this most common fix was replacing the mate.

Also on FP2 we had a couple factory units have the hub jumpers set for the 
wrong stacking. I believe they were set for parallel operations versus series. 
Strange it would work fine with the jumpers either way for a long time. But 
it's worth a check.

Sent from a IPhone, with touch screen keys on the fly. Please excuse shortcuts 
and typos.

Roland Shackelford
NABCEP CERTIFIED PV INSTALLER
President
Renewable Energy Services (RES), Inc.
Mobile:  808-938-9239
www.renewablenergy.com

On Mar 27, 2021, at 3:11 PM, Wayne Irwin  wrote:


Wrenches and Lones,

We have had chronic inverter firmware mismatch issues with FLEXpower TWO FXR 
series on many systems.
We've updated the firmware and replaced mates, yet the system failures continue.

The systems will work flawlessly for months and then randomly show error and 
the firmware mismatch. Occasionally the system will discover (on its own) that 
the firmware is the same and turn back on. But usually, the "solution" is to 
unplug the mate and plug it back in and like magic...everything works again 
anywhere from 3 months to a year.

This is disappointing and frustrating to the system owners as well as costly 
and time consuming for us.

Any guidance in resolving this issue would be greatly appreciated.

All these systems have been assembled by Outback.
None of them have OpticsRE.



Wayne Irwin
President
License #CVC56695
State Licensed Solar Contractor
Pure Energy Solar International Inc.
wa...@pureenergysolar.com
PureEnergySolar.com
SolarChargingStation.com
352 377-6527 Office
352 336-3299 Fax
352 316-1637 Cell

The Sun Is Always Shining!

The content of this message is Pure Energy Solar Confidential. If you are not 
the intended recipient and have received this message in error, any use or 
distribution is prohibited. Please notify me immediately by reply e-mail and 
delete this message from your computer system. Thank you.


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Re: [RE-wrenches] Electric Crimper Recommendations

[Kienan Maxfield]

Chad,

How does that DeWalt large wire stripper work for ultra fine stranded cable, 
such as our typical 4/0 battery cable?

Thanks,
Kienan



From: RE-wrenches  on behalf of Chad 
Waits 
Sent: Monday, February 22, 2021 2:58 AM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Electric Crimper Recommendations

I think it was about $3K with dies but we also go a free DeWalt large wire 
stripper with it as well. And yes, it does 4/0 battery lugs like a champ.

Chad Waits
President-Net Zero Solar
Cell: (520) 270-4873
[https://docs.google.com/uc?export=download=1SGeirEGrzgrqauw5X7tNc-M7cqMa-_dL=0B0cUZ0al4NwMbUFHZXJ2VnZSc1ZtMTI2UUhibWdxK1hNSDMwPQ]


On Sun, Feb 21, 2021 at 7:03 PM John Blittersdorf 
mailto:john.blittersd...@gmail.com>> wrote:
Chad, what ballpark price for the Dewalt crimped.  Does it handle 4/0 heavy 
duty lugs.   I’m getting too old for my hand crumper.

John Blittersdorf

On Sun, Feb 21, 2021 at 7:05 PM Chad Waits 
mailto:chadwa...@netzerosolar.net>> wrote:
We bought the DeWalt version not too long ago. Makes great crimps and much 
easier to work with in tight spaces if you have too.

Well worth the money...


Chad Waits
President-Net Zero Solar
Cell: (520) 270-4873
[https://docs.google.com/uc?export=download=1SGeirEGrzgrqauw5X7tNc-M7cqMa-_dL=0B0cUZ0al4NwMbUFHZXJ2VnZSc1ZtMTI2UUhibWdxK1hNSDMwPQ]


On Sun, Feb 21, 2021 at 2:40 PM Chris Sparadeo 
mailto:sparadeo.ch...@gmail.com>> wrote:
Hi all,

I’m wondering if anyone has recommendations for an electric crimper tool for 
battery lugs? I see that they can get expensive quickly, but a tool that cuts 
down on the struggle is a tool worth considering.

Thanks in advance!

-Chris
--
Chris Sparadeo


C_802-369-4458
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Re: [RE-wrenches] pole mount manufacturer w pic

[Kienan Maxfield]

I’ve done several polls that were 20 modules on one pole using MT Solar. I 
would highly recommend their product. That being said, that 10 inch schedule 80 
steel pipe is a darn heavy... and you’re looking at well over 2 yards of cement 
for that one pipe.

I wonder how heavy the pipe would need to be in order to support 48 modules…… 
and then how deep would the hole need to be...

I’ve done somewhere around 40 MT Solar mounts ranging from 4 to 20 modules on 
single pole mounts, 32 modules on a 2 pole mount, and 36 modules on a 3 pole 
mount. They make a great product, but sometimes they have a little spatter from 
the welds that might need to be ground down a little bit.

Thanks,
Kienan



From: RE-wrenches  on behalf of Ray 

Sent: Friday, February 19, 2021 5:22 PM
To: re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] pole mount manufacturer w pic


I'd be very nervous about how much deflection you could see at the corners in 
high winds.  If the frame twists enough you could have modules break, or gaps 
between modules open up enough to lose the midclips and let modules loose.  I 
would take a look at MT Solar's multi-pole system, that starts really locking 
things in as you go big.  I've never worked on a single pole mount bigger than 
16 modules that I felt good about.

Ray Walters
Remote Solar
303 505-8760

On 2/19/21 5:25 PM, Jason Szumlanski wrote:
This might be an artistic rendering. It looks too good to be true for any 
wind/snow/seismic case.

Jason Szumlanski

On Fri, Feb 19, 2021, 5:12 PM Bill Hennessy 
mailto:b...@berkssolar.com>> wrote:
[Inline image]

Hi folks, Messed up on the first try. Here's the pic.

This mounting system looks pretty efficient--48 modules on a single pole. Does 
anyone have an idea as to the manufacturer or experience with the racking? The 
photo was unattributed.

regards, bill


Bill Hennessy
Berks Solar, LLC
371 Centennial Rd
Mertztown, PA 19539

o 610 682 4300
c 484 560 4666
NABCEP certified installer
PA contractor #44411
www.berkssolar.com
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Re: [RE-wrenches] pole mount maker

[Kienan Maxfield]

Bill,

I don't think the picture got attached to your email... unless it's just a 
problem on my end.

Thanks,
Kienan

Maxfield Solar
maxfieldso...@hotmail.com<mailto:maxfieldso...@hotmail.com>
(801) 631-5584 (Cell)

From: RE-wrenches  on behalf of Bill 
Hennessy 
Sent: Friday, February 19, 2021 9:33 AM
To: RE-wrenches 
Subject: [RE-wrenches] pole mount maker

Hi folks--This mounting system looks pretty efficient--48 modules on a single 
pole. Does anyone have an idea as to the manufacturer or experience with the 
racking? The photo was unattributed.

[X]


regards, bill


Bill Hennessy
Berks Solar, LLC
371 Centennial Rd
Mertztown, PA 19539

o 610 682 4300
c 484 560 4666
NABCEP certified installer
PA contractor #44411
www.berkssolar.com
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Microgrid... Outback or SMA or other?

[Kienan Maxfield]

Thank you all so much for the suggestions!! I hadn't thought of SolArk, but 
I'll have to include that in my proposals. It sounds like they've really 
gathered quite a following.

Thanks,
Kienan


Maxfield Solar
maxfieldso...@hotmail.com<mailto:maxfieldso...@hotmail.com>
(801) 631-5584 (Cell)

From: RE-wrenches  on behalf of Jay 

Sent: Tuesday, September 8, 2020 8:50 PM
To: RE-wrenches 
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Microgrid... Outback or SMA or other?

Hi Joe

A correction

Both the 8 and 12kw are 9 kw inverters
In off grid mode according to the specs.

For grid selling the 12kw is 12 kw.

Jay
Peltz power

On Sep 8, 2020, at 7:45 PM, MiJo Nels  wrote:


we've found SolArk to be SOLID!! .. And yes 8 inv yield about 96kW, with a TON 
of surge capabilities..

Joe Nelson

Project Manager C-46/C-10
Sustainable Energy Group Inc., A California Corporation

CSL# 868816
www.SustainableEnergyGroup.com<http://www.SustainableEnergyGroup.com>
530-273-4422 (Office)

530-217-8385 (Cell)



   



From: RE-wrenches  on behalf of 
pgir...@mindspring.com 
Sent: Tuesday, September 8, 2020 1:24:03 PM
To: 'RE-wrenches' 
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Microgrid... Outback or SMA or other?


I also suggest the Sol-Ark 12’s. Extremely efficient, simple to program, does a 
wonderful job in either ac coupling, stand alone or pure off grid and terrific 
customer support.



Peter Giroux

ASAE



From: RE-wrenches  On Behalf Of 
Bryan Norkunas
Sent: Tuesday, September 8, 2020 1:50 PM
To: 'RE-wrenches' 
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Microgrid... Outback or SMA or other?



Sol-Arks would be possible, you can link 8 inverters.



Bryan

PV-Cables













From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf 
Of Chris Schaefer
Sent: Tuesday, September 8, 2020 10:40 AM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Microgrid... Outback or SMA or other?



I'd suggest giving the crew at Sol-Ark a quick call @ 972-575-8875 with their 
12kw unit. Not sure what their max number of inverters are.



Christopher



On Tue, Sep 8, 2020 at 1:14 PM Kienan Maxfield 
mailto:maxfieldso...@hotmail.com>> wrote:

Hey all, I'm designing a microgrid sized off-grid system for somebody, and I'm 
just wondering if anyone knows of any issues with the following designs...



The client says he needs 70 kW. His load data looks pretty solid, so I'm 
sticking to using that number as a minimum, at least during the initial 
proposal stage. I only know of two possible equipment options for this size 
range...



  1.  I think I can use up to 10 Outback Radians, for up to an 80 kW system. 
Are there any bugs or problems with using this many inverters on one hub? I 
know I've read about issues with selling to the grid, but that's not an issue, 
this is off-grid.
  2.  I know that the SMA cluster box with sunny islands can allow for up to a 
72 kW system. Do you know of any bugs or problems with this system?





Are there any other options that anyone would suggest? Schneider's website says 
they can only do up to 61 kW, and Victron can only do up to 60 kW.





I know that the Outback system would yield a 240/120 Split-Phase system and 
that the SMA would yield a 208/120 3Ø system, but this doesn't really matter 
either way for this job.



Thanks so much,

Kienan





Maxfield Solar

maxfieldso...@hotmail.com<mailto:maxfieldso...@hotmail.com>

(801) 631-5584 (Cell)

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Li

[RE-wrenches] Microgrid... Outback or SMA or other?

[Kienan Maxfield]

Hey all, I'm designing a microgrid sized off-grid system for somebody, and I'm 
just wondering if anyone knows of any issues with the following designs...

The client says he needs 70 kW. His load data looks pretty solid, so I'm 
sticking to using that number as a minimum, at least during the initial 
proposal stage. I only know of two possible equipment options for this size 
range...


  1.  I think I can use up to 10 Outback Radians, for up to an 80 kW system. 
Are there any bugs or problems with using this many inverters on one hub? I 
know I've read about issues with selling to the grid, but that's not an issue, 
this is off-grid.

  2.  I know that the SMA cluster box with sunny islands can allow for up to a 
72 kW system. Do you know of any bugs or problems with this system?


Are there any other options that anyone would suggest? Schneider's website says 
they can only do up to 61 kW, and Victron can only do up to 60 kW.


I know that the Outback system would yield a 240/120 Split-Phase system and 
that the SMA would yield a 208/120 3Ø system, but this doesn't really matter 
either way for this job.

Thanks so much,
Kienan


Maxfield Solar
maxfieldso...@hotmail.com<mailto:maxfieldso...@hotmail.com>
(801) 631-5584 (Cell)
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Outback FM100

[Kienan Maxfield]

Yeah, I was going to say, I don't think a coms failure of any kind could take 
down an Outback charge controller. Coms failures can certainly impact Outback 
inverters that are stacked...

I always insist on using a Mate3s on Outback jobs where it's a large enough 
system that it doesn't impact the total cost too much, but on tiny systems, it 
can be cost-prohibitive. I'm not an Outback only guy, but over the last 9 years 
of being in the off-grid business, I've used more Outback than all other brands 
combined. The main reason I always try to use a Mate3s is that from an 
installer's perspective, a system will be more trouble-free if the customer can 
understand what's going on (how much they're using, how much solar they're 
getting, and how full the batteries are), and the Mate3 is the most 
userfriendly interface I have seen anywhere. Victron has an interface that 
might be second best, but it makes the Mate3s look cheap. Secondly, a system 
will be more trouble-free when you can troubleshoot the system over the phone. 
3/4 of the service calls I get where the customer has an Outback system can be 
fixed by the customer over the phone because they all have the Mate 3 or 
Mate3s, so they can read me the event logged in the events screen, and I can 
tell them which buttons to push, etc.

I can think of all the times where a customer's aging generator doesn't put out 
as much power as it once did, and the AC Input Amps needs to be reduced, or the 
generator doesn't run as well when it's super cold out, so it needs to be 
reduced, or the customer overloaded the inverter and didn't realize it, now 
they know why it shut off without a service call... and the list goes on. The 
Mate 3 was a point of failure that caused a few service calls on its own, none 
of which shut down a system, but it saved me so many trips and service calls 
that overall, I'm certain that it has saved me hundreds of miles over the last 
9 years. Therefore, as far as I'm concerned, this means that it makes the 
system more reliable. Now, I realize that in this group, I'm still kind of 
green, only having been working off-grid for 9 years, and I realize that almost 
none of what I've said would apply to the old mate... that thing was so 
terribly non-user friendly that I've never met an off-gridder in Utah who 
actually knew how to use his old Mate, though early on, most had one.

-Kienan


Maxfield Solar
maxfieldso...@hotmail.com<mailto:maxfieldso...@hotmail.com>
(801) 631-5584 (Cell)

From: RE-wrenches  on behalf of Ray 

Sent: Monday, May 18, 2020 10:45 AM
To: re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org 
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Outback FM100


I've had them shut inverters down for both the brands you mentioned.  The comm 
failures that took out controllers were the Midnite "Follow Me" setup.

Ray Walters
Remote Solar
303 505-8760

On 5/17/20 9:46 PM, Jay wrote:
Hi Ray

In my experience I’ve had plenty of hub and component/comm failures but I’ve 
never had it shut down the fndc or charge controllers with OB or Schneider 
equipment.

I’m wondering if you have?

Thx

Jay

Peltz power.



On May 17, 2020, at 6:21 PM, Ray <mailto:r...@solarray.com> 
wrote:



I don't connect to the HUB or Mate if I don't have to; both to avoid issues 
with the customers changing programming, but also to save the customer money.  
However, the #1 reason is that when all the equipment is interconnected, it is 
all dependent.  A failure in a comm cable or single piece of equipment can 
cause all the controllers to shut down.  I just don't think the benefits of com 
connection out weigh the loss of redundancy.  I have many systems with multiple 
charge controllers, and I have seen everything from a bad temp sensor to a 
single failed controller take the other controllers off line too.  Without the 
interconnection, a failed controller will just drop the system to half power, 
not to zero production.

This isn't just with Outback, I follow this reasoning with Midnite and Magnum 
as well.  I often mix equipment (Magnum inverter, Outback Controller) so comm 
connection isn't a possibility anyway.  We might be missing some bells and 
whistles, but our systems stay operational in more situations.   Basically I'm 
not happy enough with any single manufacturer to give them a monopoly with my 
designs.  I've always built our systems with the best equipment we can get for 
that particular situation.

Ray Walters
Remote Solar
303 505-8760

On 5/17/20 7:38 AM, Mac Lewis wrote:
Hi Ray,

I'm curious, do you avoid have the FM100 on the Hub to avoid clients changing 
the programming or have you seen some other issues?  I have some of them out 
there and they seem to be solid, all Hub 10.3 connected.

On Fri, May 15, 2020 at 3:48 PM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar 
mailto:offgridso...@sti.net>> wrote:

I have little experience with arc fault detection because I do not use them 
offgrid. Could it save one from starting a 

Re: [RE-wrenches] OK, so what would happen if I do this...

[Kienan Maxfield]

Mark,

Sorry, I just barely joined the conversation... This is an interesting 
idea/project. You have a couple of obstacles... The first and biggest one is 
what Don said... unless you have a relatively rare 120V PV inverter, you're 
going to need 240 to the PV inverter. Now, this could be accomplished with a 
balancing transformer or a 2:1 transformer.

Now any battery-based inverter can be AC coupled, but if (as in this case) it's 
not rated for AC coupling, then it doesn't have the controls to protect itself 
or the battery. The PLC that monitors the battery voltage and runs the 
diversion load should work fine for protecting the batteries (so long as the 
water in the electric heater doesn't boil away, and there's no thermostat to 
turn off the diversion load). The only missing link is protecting the battery 
inverter. This inverter is only rated to pass 500W through, but if the battery 
is really low, and then the sun comes out, the PV inverter may try to push 2kW 
through the inverter into the battery. Since the battery is really low, your 
PLC won't activate the diversion controller in time. This could potentially fry 
the inverter.

Now, perhaps, in addition to monitoring the battery voltage, if your PLC was 
also monitoring the current going into the inverter on the AC outputs, then 
your PLC could activate the diversion load in order to prevent more than 
perhaps 300W from back-feeding into the inverter (to give you a safety margin). 
Assuming that the PLC works correctly and never has any bugs, then this should 
work out just fine.

Thanks,
Kienan

Maxfield Solar
maxfieldso...@hotmail.com<mailto:maxfieldso...@hotmail.com>
(801) 631-5584 (Cell)

From: RE-wrenches  on behalf of Jay 

Sent: Wednesday, March 4, 2020 11:59 AM
To: RE-wrenches 
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] OK, so what would happen if I do this...

I’m not sure I agree. The battery charger is just another load to his other 
loads.
They will cycle on and off.

The whole design is sort of cobbled. I’m guessing that John is looking for a 
fun project.

Jay

On Mar 4, 2020, at 10:21 AM, Kent Osterberg  wrote:

 Jay,

My point is that even if the diversion load can handle all of the watts and the 
PLC is fast enough to react to changes in the ac voltage, the system will 
probably still be unstable because the battery charger is in the control loop.

Kent Osterberg
Blue Mountain Solar



On 3/4/2020 9:25 AM, Jay wrote:
Hi Kent,

Johns diversion load/controller would take have to take care of watts and ac 
voltage parameters.



Jay



On Mar 4, 2020, at 9:00 AM, Kent Osterberg 
<mailto:k...@coveoregon.com> wrote:

 If using an ac battery charger to get power around the inverter to the 
batteries it would have to be rated for the full power of the PV array. 
Otherwise, you couldn't divert the full power of the array on the dc side. For 
a 24-volt battery, it would require a battery charger rated for over 80 amps. 
That alone seems risky with a 100Ah battery. To add to the difficulty of this 
approach the battery charger would add a delay time in the control loop that 
would almost certainly result in an unstable system.

Kent Osterberg


On 3/3/2020 7:53 PM, Jay wrote:
Or a charger such as Iota, or power max.

Jay
Peltz power.

On Mar 3, 2020, at 7:24 PM, 
d...@energysolarnow.com<mailto:d...@energysolarnow.com> wrote:


You wrote that you would connect the Exeltech to just one of the service phases.
But most GT inverters are 240 and require both phases. Is yours different? You 
did not mention which model it is.
Also, as Kent Osterberg mentioned, the Exeltech will not charge its batteries 
from the AC output.
Your scheme with the PLC controlling an SCR leaves unaddressed how any charge 
current gets directed into the batteries to allegedly raise their voltage. Is 
there a charger somewhere in this scheme?
You still need some way to charge batteries from solar. How about connecting a 
charge controller to some of the solar panels?

Don Barch
Energy Solar
 Original Message 
Subject: RE-wrenches Digest, Vol 13, Issue 59
From: 
re-wrenches-requ...@lists.re-wrenches.org<mailto:re-wrenches-requ...@lists.re-wrenches.org>
Date: Sun, March 01, 2020 2:19 pm
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[RE-wrenches] In search of replacement module

[Kienan Maxfield]

Hey all, I have a customer who broke one module and I'm looking for a 
replacement. If I can find one with similar aesthetics, and the same or similar 
physical size, I don't think brand would matter. If you know where I could find 
a replacement, please let me know off-list.

Thanks so much!!

It was an REC peak 250 (REC's old standard 60 cell)
Black frames with white back sheet
thickness - 38mm (1.5 in)
width - 991mm (39 in)
length - 1665mm (65.6 in)



Thanks,
Kienan


Maxfield Solar
maxfieldso...@hotmail.com<mailto:maxfieldso...@hotmail.com>
(801) 631-5584 (Cell)
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Parts List For AC Couple Disconnect

[Kienan Maxfield]

Mark,

Sorry, my post must not have been perfectly clear... I have total confidence in 
how the BB inverters work, and no, the GT inverter there will be no measurable 
deduction in impedance, even if you have a very sensitive sensor and there are 
no other loads on the system. It just doesn't work that way. It is impossible 
for the inverter to reduce the current into the batteries when it's being fed 
into the inverter through its output. And that's true no matter what inverter 
we're talking about. It is impossible for it to increase it's impedance that 
way.

The only thing I would say is that if you were an engineer at an inverter 
manufacturer, it would be possible for you to design an inverter that could 
change it's output voltage based on the battery voltage, but nobody does that. 
That's why they change the output frequency. I think my last email layed out 
the 4 possible options, and I am confident that there is no other option that 
would work at all.

These were my four options...

  1.  Use a BB inverter that has frequency shifting control for AC coupling
  2.  Run a wire from the battery room to the GT inverters that you can use for 
controlling them based on the battery voltage
  3.  Experiment with something custom and just expect a high probability of 
eventual failure (but let us know how it goes)
 *   You might be able to find a device that would read the battery 
voltage, and then transmit that information wirelessly, then have another 
device at the GT inverters that decodes that information and then drives a 
relay accordingly. (I have no idea how to do this, for me, this is in the 
hypothetical realm.) Or maybe it could transmit the info via PLC?
  4.  Or the fourth option is to set the BB inverter's high battery cut out 
voltage to just above the absorb voltage and just plan on the power going out 
multiple times per sunny day. I wouldn't go for this one unless it's your own 
home and you're feeling very adventuresome.



Sorry for the bad news, but unless you have frequency shifting, it's totally 
impossible to control the GT inverter using the AC line.

Kienan


Maxfield Solar
maxfieldso...@hotmail.com<mailto:maxfieldso...@hotmail.com>
(801) 631-5584 (Cell)

From: RE-wrenches  on behalf of Mark 
Frye 
Sent: Sunday, November 3, 2019 11:58 AM
To: re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org 
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Parts List For AC Couple Disconnect


OK, the posts are coming in on the "no" side, but with uncertainty about how 
any given BB inverter might work.


I still think that the BB charger is in charge (no pun) of sending power to the 
battery and if it the battery is at it's set point then the duty cycle on the 
transistors in the rectifier go down - zero. At that point the impedance of the 
AC line would appear to go up. In response the GT inverters would increase 
there output voltage in an attempt to over come the higher impedance.


The voltage monitoring switch that I spec'd has a response delay setting. If I 
am running in offgrid mode, the main worry is voltage sag due to load. So 
generally, the inverter would be running at or below AC voltage set point. 
There may be spikes above voltage set point when a load is disconnected, but I 
could filter that out with the delay on the sensor.


Still, this is why I am asking.


Anyone on the list have more confidence in their understand of BB inverters in 
off-grid mode with AC coupled GT inverters?


Mark


On 11/3/2019 10:44 AM, Kienan Maxfield wrote:
Mark,

I think that you're not understanding what Brian is saying. In any case, your 
proposal will not work with most equipment. There may be some equipment that 
would work that way, but not anything I'm aware of. Let me tell you what will 
happen in a normal system, assuming that the manufacturer hasn't built in an AC 
coupling control mechanism (like frequency shifting)

The BB inverter will maintain a stable AC voltage by allowing the GT inverters 
to back feed into the batteries. If the batteries start overcharging, the BB 
inverter will not raise the AC voltage in response. What will happen instead is 
that there will be no measurable difference in the AC voltage, but the DC 
voltage will continue to rise until it hits the multimode BB inverter's high 
battery cut out voltage, and the BB inverter will shut off, and your entire AC 
line will drop to 0 volts. This will turn off the GT inverter, and as the 
battery voltage falls back into an acceptable range, the BB inverter may or may 
not automatically turn back on. If it does automatically turn back on, then the 
GT inverter will wait for 5 minutes and then they'll start back-feeding until 
the battery voltage goes above the overvoltage setpoint, and the whole system 
shuts off again. So this is what is normally happening if you hear about an AC 
coupling system that shuts off once every 6 minutes or so during the day... And 
yes, I have seen a system where the ho

Re: [RE-wrenches] Parts List For AC Couple Disconnect

[Kienan Maxfield]

Mark,

I think that you're not understanding what Brian is saying. In any case, your 
proposal will not work with most equipment. There may be some equipment that 
would work that way, but not anything I'm aware of. Let me tell you what will 
happen in a normal system, assuming that the manufacturer hasn't built in an AC 
coupling control mechanism (like frequency shifting)

The BB inverter will maintain a stable AC voltage by allowing the GT inverters 
to back feed into the batteries. If the batteries start overcharging, the BB 
inverter will not raise the AC voltage in response. What will happen instead is 
that there will be no measurable difference in the AC voltage, but the DC 
voltage will continue to rise until it hits the multimode BB inverter's high 
battery cut out voltage, and the BB inverter will shut off, and your entire AC 
line will drop to 0 volts. This will turn off the GT inverter, and as the 
battery voltage falls back into an acceptable range, the BB inverter may or may 
not automatically turn back on. If it does automatically turn back on, then the 
GT inverter will wait for 5 minutes and then they'll start back-feeding until 
the battery voltage goes above the overvoltage setpoint, and the whole system 
shuts off again. So this is what is normally happening if you hear about an AC 
coupling system that shuts off once every 6 minutes or so during the day... And 
yes, I have seen a system where the homeowner was told that this was normal, 
and it's just how the system was supposed to work..

So if the inverter has an AC Coupling control mechanism, and that AC coupling 
mode is turned on, then it will change the characteristics of the AC line in 
order to notify the GT inverter to turn off, or to decrease its output. The 
only way that I've ever heard about any manufacturers implementing this is 
through frequency shifting. Now it would be perfectly possible to do it through 
voltage shifting (or voltage raising) and I've talked to some engineers who 
said that on a technological level, it wouldn't be any harder for a 
manufacturer to do voltage shifting than frequency shifting, but no 
manufacturer has actually pursued that. So basically, your only options are

  1.  use a BB inverter that has frequency shifting control for AC coupling
  2.  run a wire from the battery room to the GT inverters that you can use for 
controlling them based on the battery voltage
  3.  experiment with something custom and just expect a high probability of 
eventual failure (but let us know how it goes)
 *   You might be able to find a device that would read the battery 
voltage, and then transmit that information wirelessly, then have another 
device at the GT inverters that decodes that information and then drives a 
relay accordingly. (I have no idea how to do this, for me, this is in the 
hypothetical realm.) Or maybe it could transmit the info via PLC?
  4.  or the fourth option is to set the BB inverter's high battery cut out 
voltage to just above the absorb voltage and just plan on the power going out 
multiple times per sunny day. I wouldn't go for this one unless it's your own 
home and you're feeling very adventuresome.

Essentially the bottom line is that monitoring the AC line will never work 
unless the BB inverter has a built-in AC coupling control mechanism, then 
you'll be monitoring for the frequency rather than the voltage.

Sorry for not having anything more helpful to say.
Kienan

Maxfield Solar
maxfieldso...@hotmail.com<mailto:maxfieldso...@hotmail.com>
(801) 631-5584 (Cell)

From: RE-wrenches  on behalf of Mark 
Frye 
Sent: Sunday, November 3, 2019 11:00 AM
To: re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org 
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Parts List For AC Couple Disconnect

OK Brian,

So I think you are confirming that monitoring AC side voltage is an
acceptable way of deciding when to disconnect the GT inverters.

With my parts list, I have a delay time that would hold the GT inverters
off-line for some period of time (I would probably set to 1 hour) before
coming back on line after tipping off.


Mark

On 11/3/2019 9:53 AM, Brian Mehalic wrote:
> With frequency-on/off, frequency power control, or other “inverter 
> integrated” control based on battery voltage/state of charge there is also 
> control in regards to when the ac coupled inverters come back on. And yes, 
> this is definitely needed to prevent overcharge (or get three-stage charging 
> from the  AC coupled system). Of course if it doesn’t work, yes the bus 
> voltage will rise and trip the BB offline.
>
> AC bus voltage will go down as soon as the ac couple inverters are kicked 
> off, so if that’s your measured value unless your control system has a delay 
> or other component to control reconnection and charging i think it could 
> essentially chatter off and on and off and...
>
> Brian
>
>> On Nov 3, 2019, at 9:38 AM, Mark Frye  wrote

Re: [RE-wrenches] Stiffening an AC buss

[Kienan Maxfield]

Mac,

Most Multi-Mode inverters I know of should work for your intentions. You feed 
the hydro source into the generator input terminals on the multimode inverter, 
and you program the inverter in "generator support mode," and then you program 
the inverter with the maximum stable output of the hydro plant (or maximum 
generator load), and when your load draws surges above that maximum kW, then 
the multi-mode inverter will inject power to support the hydro-generator. With 
this configuration, it is important that all of the power being used on-site is 
going through that multi-mode inverter so that it can monitor exactly what is 
being used, so it can support the hydro-generator as needed. Then, when the 
site is using less energy, the multi-mode inverter will replenish its batteries 
from the hydro-generator. You might have to play around with the programming to 
figure out what kW will be the best value for the "generator maximum load" 
setpoint.

Just make sure that whatever you use has a suitable generator support mode. I 
know Outback does, and I believe that Schneider and all the other big brands do 
too.

Now the SMA Sunny Island does have one small advantage here, it is the only one 
in the pack that I know of that does the following... While doing everything we 
just talked about, it is capable of injecting vars rather than only pure power, 
so then the Hydro Generator only has to put out pure power. Of course, the SMA 
SI has to be programmed right for that to work out. By keeping a unity power 
factor on the output from the hydro plant, it can put out the power more 
efficiently, and all the Vars for the site can be supplied by the SI.

Now, this isn't a sure-fire for not ever having a small flicker. In generator 
support mode, there is always a slight lag between when the surge load comes 
on, and when the generator starts injecting power so there may be a slight 
flicker right at the moment a surge load comes on, but it won't be like a real 
brown out, just a momentary flicker. The old incandescent lights don't reveal 
this flicker as much because they dim more slowly, but with the LEDs, it might 
be noticeable.

Thanks,
Kienan

Maxfield Solar
maxfieldso...@hotmail.com<mailto:maxfieldso...@hotmail.com>
(801) 631-5584 (Cell)

From: RE-wrenches  on behalf of Mac 
Lewis 
Sent: Sunday, November 3, 2019 6:46 AM
To: RE-wrenches 
Subject: [RE-wrenches] Stiffening an AC buss

Hi wrenches,

I have a site visit coming up on a hydro system, I believe its ~ 20 kW range, 
and an older unit, 30+ years old.  This info may or may not be reliable until I 
see the site.  However, I'd like some options to consider while I'm looking at 
their system.  My hydro knowledge is weak but I enjoy it.

They experience browning out when certain loads kick on.  I assume they have 
checked the diversion load controller(s) to see if its dropping and adding 
loads as it should.  I also assume that they have checked the rotor assembly, 
brushes etc and they are in good working order.

The first thing I'll do is call the manufacturer and see if they have any 
ideas, but I'm sure they will recommend a new turbine/generator assembly with 
better voltage regulation.

I am wondering if there is any type of inverter can operate in parallel with 
the hydro output that can inject current (maybe VARS as well) onto the AC buss 
to help stabilize AC voltage and frequency during these events.  It seems like 
the new smart inverters can do this but I have no experience with this.  Maybe 
the Sunny Island?

Im just starting to research this but I always appreciate your input.

Thanks

--



Mac Lewis


"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Off Grid Optimizers

[Kienan Maxfield]

.


Thanks,
Kienan


Maxfield Solar
maxfieldso...@hotmail.com<mailto:maxfieldso...@hotmail.com>
(801) 631-5584

From: RE-wrenches  on behalf of 
drake.chamber...@redwoodalliance.org 
Sent: Friday, November 1, 2019 10:33 AM
To: RE-wrenches 
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Off Grid Optimizers

I agree completely that AC coupled systems are far better off if they have a 
battery charging method completely independent of the off-grid inverter. Some 
DC coupled solar is the best way to go. The system I'm considering already has 
2820 W of DC coupled PV.

Drake



- Original Message -
From:
"RE-wrenches" 

To:

Cc:

Sent:
Thu, 31 Oct 2019 19:33:11 -0600
Subject:
Re: [RE-wrenches] Off Grid Optimizers



We've discussed AC coupled many times.   Aside from the issues Michael brought 
up, I need to remind that not having at least some DC  PV charging means that 
when the AC system shuts down for any reason, so does all the PV charging.  If 
Li+ batteries get discharged to their low voltage shut off:  Dark Starts 
anyone?   With lead acid, DC coupled PV is just as critical to keep the battery 
from sulfating.

Which would you want?

Scenario 1:Come back to trouble shoot a system shutdown,  try to reboot, only 
to find no battery voltage to even test with. or

Scenario 2:  You will have a battery that is being charged, if not already at 
full charge.

For GTB?, you decide how important this issue is,  but for Off grid you are 
putting your customer in serious jeopardy without power. Unless they have a 
manual bypass, the generator won't pass through to the loads, or charge the 
battery either.  This is not theory, We've had to fix these, and in some cases 
replace the battery bank that was damaged after sitting dead too long.

My previous post in favor of AC coupling was only as a supplement to a solid DC 
PV system, or for module level optimization in partial shade conditions.

Ray Walters



Remote Solar



303 505-8760

On 11/1/19 1:08 PM, Michael Morningstar wrote:
You know Murphy? That is Murphy of Murphy’s Law?  He’s gotta just love the idea 
of AC coupled off-grid systems. The OB, SB, Li system Jay described is going to 
keep him (Murphy) and the installer very busy at some point. The further away 
the system is from civilization, the higher the odds of chicanery and 
headaches. Systems that need backup safety controls seem inherently risky too.



On Oct 31, 2019, at 11:06 AM, jay 
mailto:jay.pe...@gmail.com>> wrote:

HI Drake,

I was just talking with a colleague the other day about a project he did.
New Radian, AC coupling, lithium batteries, SB inverters.  Everything is 
working just as it should with the GT inverters tapering during AC coupling 
frequency shift mode.


I would say you are fine, and while I can’t say for sure if the Enphase will 
work that way, they should as they are all designed to the same parameters rule 
21.

I always do recommend a aux relay for backup/shutoff  should there be some kind 
of issue.

With the Envoy you’ll be able to see that tapering as well.

Seems like a good option for your application

jay





On Oct 31, 2019, at 9:49 AM, Drake 
mailto:drake.chamber...@redwoodalliance.org>>
 wrote:

Hi Jay,

Between 2160 and 2880 Watts of added array. We will be using a new Radian.

Drake

At 11:49 AM 10/31/2019, you wrote:
How many watts are you adding as ac coupling?
And presuming its an older 8k radian?


Jay

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[RE-wrenches] Outback Dual Radian System - Phase Loss

[Kienan Maxfield]

Esteemed wrenchers.

The day before yesterday, I tried to commission a grid-tied system with two 
Outback Radians and an Outback FM100. I got an event saying that it had a phase 
loss error on Port 2 (which is the slave). I tried looking online and in the 
manuals, and I checked all the wiring, but I could not determine the cause of 
the problem. It was after hours, so I returned to the site yesterday and spent 
2 hours on the phone with tech support, and I thought I had finally resolved 
it, but on Optics, I see that the system was throwing the same error today. It 
comes and goes. In my events history, it says "Inverter input on port 2 has 
lost phase." then it'll say "Phase Loss has cleared on Inverter port 2 input."

The interesting thing is that it continues working fine even when it says the 
fault is active. It's selling to the grid and everything just as you would 
expect it to without interruption. But of course, the flashing red light is a 
bit concerning to the customer, and I'm a bit perplexed about it myself.

Does anybody have any experience with anything like this? Does anybody have any 
ideas?

Thank you so much!!
Kienan


Maxfield Solar
maxfieldso...@hotmail.com<mailto:maxfieldso...@hotmail.com>
(801) 631-5584 (Cell)
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Outback inverter firmware mismatch

[Kienan Maxfield]

I have seen this problem and other similar problems many times. I saw one just 
last month that someone else was having trouble with. And with every single 
case that I’ve seen, the installer had accidentally neglected to ensure that 
the inverters are plugged into the correct ports. One of the Outback 
instruction manuals does say that the master inverter must be plugged into port 
one of the hub. In my own experience, if it’s not plugged into port one, all 
kinds of weird and strange problems arise. I would be only slightly surprised 
if Outback tech-support did not have you check that. I think that some of their 
techs don’t know the little details like that. On the Radian last month, I went 
over and switched the cables so that the Radian was plugged into port one, and 
it worked great after that.

Just to keep things organized, I always ensure to put the master inverter in 
Port 1, the second inverter (first slave) in Port 2, etc., then put all the 
charge controllers after that. I don’t understand it, I just know that this is 
a good way to prevent strange and frustrating errors.

Sometimes the ever occurs immediately, sometimes the error waits and happens 
after running a while. I have found this same issue with all Outback products, 
FX, Radian, FXR, etc.

Thanks,
Kienan

801-631-5584

On Jun 5, 2019, at 10:47 AM, William Miller 
mailto:will...@millersolar.com>> wrote:

Bill:

I am not sure how your point applies. This occurs on systems that have been 
running for some time.   I would hope equipment in this price range and this 
application does not need frequent rebooting.

William

On Jun 4, 2019, at 9:32 PM, frenergy 
mailto:frene...@psln.com>> wrote:


Besides all the good info from Mac, there may be something to gain from 
following OB's sequence procedure for a proper complete system (all devices) 
shutdown and reboot.

Bill

Feather River Solar Electric
Bill Battagin, Owner
4291 Nelson St.
Taylorsville, CA 95983
530.284.7849
CA Lic 874049
www.frenergy.net

On 6/4/2019 4:04 PM, Bruce Geddes wrote:
Don’t know about Radian but I had this issue with a dual stack VFXR system.  
After five visits to site (3 hours drive one way) Tech support eventually told 
me there had been a bad batch of comms boards on FXR’s but I had already 
swapped inverters out for VFX’s at last visit and issue ceased.  Definitely 
some sort of comms glitch causing the Mate3 to loose info on devices.
Best of luck from down under.
Bruce Geddes
PowerOn

From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf 
Of Mac Lewis
Sent: Tuesday, 4 June 2019 3:00 p.m.
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Outback inverter firmware mismatch

William,

We have experienced this same issue on various Outback systems, mainly on 
multi-stack fxr systems.  I can't say I know or understand why this happens. To 
me, it makes sense that it's a communication error of some kind. What I've done 
with success:
1. Update all firmware, Mate, devices etc.
2. If a certain device (s) seems to have an issue, replace cables.
3. Apply terminal grease to all devices connections and Hub connections.

So far, this approach has worked, but will eat a lot of man hours.

Good luck, and please let us know if you find anything deeper out about this.



On Mon, Jun 3, 2019, 8:49 PM William Miller 
mailto:will...@millersolar.com>> wrote:
Friends:

As part of my ongoing love/hate relationship with Outback, I have been 
occasionally receiving “Inverter firmware mismatch” warnings on some Radian 
systems. The firmware has not been changed.

I was told it was bad data cables. I replaced all cables on one system only to 
receive more of the same warnings. Then, suddenly the error warnings quit.

Now today another system is experiencing the same warnings.

Does anyone know what this means and how to fix it?

Thanks in advance.

William

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Re: [RE-wrenches] Schneider ac coupling time.

[Kienan Maxfield]

Jay,

It waits 50 seconds to even start to try to shift the frequency. I don’t know 
how long it takes to get up to get to 64 HZ. I heard somebody say that they 
thought that the 50 second delay should be adjustable, but I could not find a 
way to adjust it. I have not had a chance to talk to Schneider tech-support 
about it since then.

I had a problem with this on a job, by the time the Schneider would change its 
frequency, the voltage would be way over an acceptable voltage. I had to adjust 
the voltage setpoint down in order to try to shorten the delay. That was not 
really a good workaround because how quickly the voltage rises depends on the 
charge rate. 

I know that all of the delays and ramp up speeds and ramp down speeds are fully 
user adjustable on outback equipment, I hope that Schneider has added this 
adjustability by now... but last time I checked, I don’t think you could. 

Thanks,
Kienan 



> On Jun 5, 2019, at 10:46 AM, jay  wrote:
> 
> 
> HI All,
> 
> I’ve got a project using lithium batteries and a big hydro.
> 
> 4kw hydro
> 6.8kw schneider
> off grid
> AC coupled hydro
> 
> The plan is to use a combination of ways to keep from overcharging the 
> batteries.
> 
> 1. PWM diversion control load. If this doesn’t keep up then we go to #2
> 2. AC couple HZ control and if that fails we go to #3
> 3. SS relay control on GT inverter output via inverter control
> 
> 
> My question is this:  Does anyone know the time between when the XW+ sees the 
> voltage and then gets to the 64hz for regulation?
> 
> thanks
> 
> jay
> 
> peltz power
> 
> 
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Quick Cable supplier

[Kienan Maxfield]

My favorite supplier is PV cables, but if you need something they don't have in 
stock, they can't often get it sent to you in a timely manner. With that in 
mind, check out Century Tool - 
https://www.centurytool.net/SearchResults.asp?Extensive_Search=Y=Magna=0=0

They are the largest dealer of Quick Cable. because of their high volume, they 
always have a lot in stock, and their pricing is really good.

I do prefer to buy from someone knowledgeable and helpful in our industry, but 
when that's not a good option, Century Tool is a good backup option.

I tried to become a dealer directly to quick cable, but they don't want small 
dealers.

Thanks,
Kienan

On May 30, 2019, at 4:50 PM, Kirpal 
mailto:solarwo...@gmail.com>> wrote:

Try- PV Cables Inc. They are quick to ship and typically have these in stock.
Cheers
Kirpal
Oregon Solarworks

On Thu, May 30, 2019, 2:48 PM Tump mailto:t...@swnl.net>> wrote:
Any suggestions for a professional sales rep for Quick Cable would be 
appreciated.
Am in need of Magna Lugs that are listed for my QC crimper, available in a 
timely fashion.
Please contact me off list. thanks Tump

t...@swnl.net   www.SWNL.net
Solarwinds Northernlights
   Serving Mid Coast Maine & Northern California
 207-832-7574   Cl. 610-517-8401
  Blair "TUMP" May

     MAINE'S CHARTER 
  NABCEP"Certified PV Installer"

    MAINE'S CHARTER 
  Trace Xantrex "Certified" Dealer / Installer"



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Re: [RE-wrenches] large(ish) AC coupled battery backup

[Kienan Maxfield]

Dave,

No problem. I don't know much about Sonnen, but what I do know is that not all 
GT inverters do the same impedance test. Outback Power did a bunch of testing 
and they found one inverter larger than 6 kW that would be able to tell that it 
could impact the voltage coming from the Radian, and so it could tell that it 
was not truly the grid. So to be ultra safe, Outback decided to make a cap of 6 
kW.

Now I don't know which brand/model inverter above 6 kW that they found that 
wouldn't work. I don't know if the impedance of the batteries might make a 
slight difference, and since the Sonnen will only have Lithium batteries with 
super short cables, perhaps it might be able to trick that one GT inverter, or 
perhaps, they are less cautious about making sure it will work with every 
inverter that falls within the rating, or maybe it is something in the 
software. I don't know.

Perhaps, if Outback were doing all their testing with Lithium batteries and 
super short cables, perhaps they would have rated the Radian to handle larger 
GT inverters.

Thanks,
Kienan

Maxfield Solar
maxfieldso...@hotmail.com<mailto:maxfieldso...@hotmail.com>
(801) 631-5584 (Cell)

From: RE-wrenches  on behalf of Dave 
Tedeyan 
Sent: Friday, May 3, 2019 3:05 PM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] large(ish) AC coupled battery backup

Kienan,
Thanks for the info here. That is really interesting about the 6kw limitation. 
Outback clearly states that limit, but Sonnen has managed to surpass that with 
their programming of the Radian.
The PV part of the system is already existing, so this will need to be AC 
coupled entirely. I may just aim to AC couple one of the two 11.4kw inverters 
though.
Another slightly complicating factor is that the array is ground mounted and 
interconnects near the meter which is roughly 100' from the house. Fortunately 
there is that old service line that I may be able to use to bring power from 
the solar all the way back to the house.

Cheers,
Dave

Dave Tedeyan, PE
Senior Engineer | Taitem Engineering, PC
[https://www.taitem.com/signatures/logo.png]
110 South Albany Street | Ithaca, NY 14850
o. 607.277.1118 x121  f. 607.277.2119
www.taitem.com<http://www.taitem.com>

Solar • Sustainability • Energy • Design
B-Corporation Best for the World 2018 Honoree


On Fri, May 3, 2019 at 2:54 PM Kienan Maxfield 
mailto:maxfieldso...@hotmail.com>> wrote:
Yes, two radians combined can handle one 12 kW grid tied inverter.

The 6 kW limitation is not a limitation of how much power the radian can 
actually handle, it's that the grid tied inverters do an impedance/stability 
test, and some inverters larger than 6 kW will detect that the inverter is not 
actually the grid, and the GT inverter will shut down before it even fires up. 
If it weren't for that, the radian would be able to handle more PV in an AC 
coupled situation.

Is this an all new system? Sometimes, doing a mixture of AC and DC coupling 
makes the most sense financially if you don't actually need 4 radians worth of 
backup power. The following setup I'm talking about assumes that you have an 
external transfer switch, and it's the extreme setup, not necessarily a 
recommended setup. I just want to demonstrate that you would really only need 2 
radians if the required instantaneous backup power needs were low enough.

If you do an AC/DC coupled mix, for each Radian, you can actually handle up to 
6 kW AC of GT inverter(s), and it can export 7.2 kW AC from the DC coupled 
side. With a DC/AC ratio of 1.25, that would be 7.5 kW of AC coupled PV and 9 
kW of DC coupled PV, so with the right design and external transfer switch, the 
radian could potentially handle up to 16.25 of PV per inverter. Now you have to 
tie the AC coupled PV into the load side of the transfer switch (or in the 
backed up loads panel). This way, if the grid is available, the AC coupled PV 
is not connected at all to the battery based inverter, but when the power 
fails, then the PV gets connected to the radian(s) through the transfer switch. 
Again, I want to stress that it is imperative that with this kind of system, it 
has to be tied through an automatic external transfer switch, and that you 
can't have the power flowing to the grid from both the AC and DC coupled PV 
simultaneously.

Hope this is somewhat helpful.

Thanks,
Kienan


Maxfield Solar
maxfieldso...@hotmail.com<mailto:maxfieldso...@hotmail.com>
(801) 631-5584 (Cell)


From: RE-wrenches 
mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org>>
 on behalf of Dave Tedeyan mailto:dtede...@taitem.com>>
Sent: Friday, May 3, 2019 7:43 AM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] large(ish) AC coupled battery backup

Thanks Darryl,
Yea, it used to be two separate 200A services. At some point, someone decided 
to turn one of those panels into a sub and run it all of a single service.
Regarding paralleling Radians, I k

[RE-wrenches] Schneider XW AUX plug

[Kienan Maxfield]

Hello all,

I am working on an orphaned Schneider XW +6848 system, end it looks like the 
original installer threw away the green AUX plug, which you use for the remote 
inverter on/off switch, the AUX output, etc. I’m hoping that somebody here 
might know where I might be able to buy a replacement, or if there is a part 
number/name that I could search for. 

I started by calling Schneider tech-support, and I got a very nice guy on the 
phone who told me that he would find the information and email it to me. That 
was on Thursday, and I have not heard back from them, so I figured I’d reach 
out to you all.

Thank you so much!
Kienan

Maxfield Solar
maxfieldso...@hotmail.com
(801)631-5584
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Plated versus unplated eyelets

[Kienan Maxfield]

William,

The plain copper can corrode much faster. I like the tinned ones made by Quick 
Cable. You can get them from PV Cables. pvcables.com

I really like PV Cables. They always treat me really well and their prices are 
great.

Thanks,
Kienan

Mayfield Solar
(801) 631-5584
maxfieldso...@hotmail.com





On Apr 7, 2019, at 10:28 PM, William Miller 
mailto:will...@millersolar.com>> wrote:

Friends:

Just wondering if anyone of you have a preference of finish on copper battery 
lead eyelets.  I have always used tinned.  I notice the plain copper are half 
the cost.  I never really looked into this.  Has anyone else?

Thanks in advance.

William Miller

Miller Solar
17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422
805-438-5600
www.millersolar.com
CA Lic. 773985

Quote of the day:  “If there is a job you hate, get really,
really good at it. Maybe you will hate it less.“ W. Miller

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Re: [RE-wrenches] Xantrex XW6048 (quad) blowing past setpoints

[Kienan Maxfield]

Jason,

This isn’t an AC coupled system is it? There is a very common issue that can 
occur when you AC couple XWs on lithium batteries.

If this is AC coupled, I’ll go into more detail on what I think your problem 
might be. Also, let us know if you got it fixed.

Thanks,
Kienan
maxfieldso...@hotmail.com
(801) 631-5584



On Mar 27, 2019, at 9:42 AM, Sandra Herrera 
mailto:sandra.herr...@se.com>> wrote:

Jason,

Lets connect off-list direct email, I will need to send you a file.

Also, this can only be done using the Cofig Tool.

sandra.herr...@se.com

From: RE-wrenches 
mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org>>
 On Behalf Of Jason Szumlanski
Sent: Wednesday, March 27, 2019 8:32 AM
To: RE-wrenches 
mailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org>>
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Xantrex XW6048 (quad) blowing past setpoints


[External email: Use caution with links and attachments]




[https://mailtrack.io/trace/mail/72c426fd7ef4b53eb1e42228450b27719ee791db.png?u=1613865]
I can't even get 1 hour of charging. The voltage rises too quickly and the 
battery management systems disconnect the battery.

What is the calibration process?

I still plan to disable the chargers that are reporting the wrong (lower) 
voltage and see if the others (individually) still ignore the setpoints. It's a 
very remote location, so diagnostics are extremely difficult.





On Tue, Mar 26, 2019 at 9:00 AM Sandra Herrera 
mailto:sandra.herr...@se.com>> wrote:
Jason,

The Battery daily summary from the ComBox is information on one day at a time, 
this is not part of the logs, and it should be available even if you have 1 
hour or charging.

However, based on your discovery of different DC voltages from the inverter, my 
recommendation is to calibrate them.

Sandra


From: RE-wrenches 
mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org>>
 On Behalf Of Jason Szumlanski
Sent: Monday, March 25, 2019 4:18 PM
To: RE-wrenches 
mailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org>>
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Xantrex XW6048 (quad) blowing past setpoints


[External email: Use caution with links and attachments]




[X]
This is a newly commissioned Lithionic LiPo battery on an old system that has 
been out of commission for over a year. 51V nominal battery. Logs are not 
possible. This happens within minutes of bulk charging initiation. There is no 
spike. It's a steady rise.

Jason





On Mon, Mar 25, 2019 at 4:41 PM Sandra Herrera 
mailto:sandra.herr...@se.com>> wrote:
Jason,

Can you share the Battery Daily Summary from the ComBox? Only select the 
battery voltage so it is easier to see where the 0.8V jump is occurring.

Also, what battery are you using?

Thanks

Sandra Herrera

From: RE-wrenches 
mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org>>
 On Behalf Of Jason Szumlanski
Sent: Monday, March 25, 2019 1:36 PM
To: RE-wrenches 
mailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org>>
Subject: [RE-wrenches] Xantrex XW6048 (quad) blowing past setpoints


[External email: Use caution with links and attachments]




I have four inverter/chargers (master and 3 slaves) that are blowing past their 
57.6V setpoint that I programmed and confirmed via the Context Combox. They are 
hitting 58.4V and tripping the battery management units on a set of Lithium 
Batts. Any ideas why this would happen? I can disable chargers on individual 
units, so I know the settings are getting uploaded via the Combox.

Jason Szumlanski

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Re: [RE-wrenches] Voltage seeking transfer switch

[Kienan Maxfield]

I’ve used the Cumins, and it works well. It has a 120 VAC to 12 VDC converter 
inside, so it doesn’t require a generator battery. That being said, the power 
supply comes pre-wired to the grid side, so I had to rewire it to the “gen” 
(solar) side since that side always has power.

-Kienan


On Mar 19, 2019, at 5:51 PM, Darryl Thayer 
mailto:darylsol...@gmail.com>> wrote:

Hello, the generator transfer switches work as you request, however the ones 
that I have used require the generator start battery 12-volt connection to pull 
the transfer switch.   You may have to provide a 12-volt source to accomplish 
this transfer.  The last ones I used were from Eaton, Generac, and others, all 
using a 12-volt to activate the transfer

On Tue, Mar 19, 2019 at 9:54 AM Mac Lewis 
mailto:maclew...@gmail.com>> wrote:
Hello Wrenches,

Does anyone have experience with a 200A outdoor transfer switch that will 
automatically seek voltage?  Meaning that if priority voltage source (grid) 
isn't available and second source is available it will switch to it with no 
external communication?  We are trying to do a whole house backup, and critical 
load panel isn't possible.  This may be common, I just haven't done it.

Thanks in advance

--



Mac Lewis


"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates

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Re: [RE-wrenches] Anyone recognize this pole mount system?

[Kienan Maxfield]

These are not MT Solar. That is certain. 

Thanks,
Kienan 



> On Mar 14, 2019, at 2:12 PM, Timothy Econopouly 
>  wrote:
> 
> They look like vintage Tamarack or MT Solar top of pole mounts 
> 
> 
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Crimper for Enphase field wireable connectors

[Kienan Maxfield]

I second Jay's recommendation Bryan and the company "PV Cables" is GREAT!!

Thanks,
Kienan



Maxfield Solar
maxfieldso...@hotmail.com<mailto:maxfieldso...@hotmail.com>
(801) 477-0-SUN (477-0786)
(801) 631-5584 (Cell)

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Re: [RE-wrenches] DKD Lithium Batteries

[Kienan Maxfield]

Oh, interesting.

Thanks, Dan, that makes sense. If they don't have an internal BMS, that would 
be very worrisome.


Jay, that sounds like an intriguing idea. So if you're applying a higher 
voltage, how would you know if it shuts off?

The chemistry is LiFePO4, which is supposed to be the safest lithium chemistry. 
That being said, I've heard that it's still possible for them to start on fire 
without a BMS, I don't know on that one.

As far as cycle life, I've heard that there are only two companies that are 
manufacturing those cells. If that were true, then these should have the same 
cycle life as any other battery using the Chinese LiFePO4 cells (such as Iron 
Edison) unless the BMS allows the cells to get damaged.

"Just sucks seeing people getting screwed." - That's exactly it. Now that he's 
spent all of this money, I'm hesitant to tell him anything. I don't know if 
it's a safe setup and I should just tell him to try to use them until they quit 
working and hope for the best, or if I need to tell him that they may be an 
expensive hazard in his basement. I can tell him that they're illegal because 
they aren't "marked and listed," but the inspectors already signed off on it so 
the final call is up to him.



Darryl, Sorry, I meant 5 banks of batteries at 4 batteries each (so a total of 
500 Ah @48V total). Thanks for the advice, it makes a lot of sense. I'll try to 
do some testing.


Thanks,
Kienan


Maxfield Solar
maxfieldso...@hotmail.com<mailto:maxfieldso...@hotmail.com>
(801) 477-0-SUN (477-0786)
(801) 631-5584 (Cell)
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Optics-RE

[Kienan Maxfield]

William,

Thanks. Yes, that's my normal practice. I am quite familiar with that process. 
I am a big outback user. I just meant that it would be cool if they were to add 
that same functionality to Optics, rather than having to be on site. If you 
could export the configuration on optics, then you could easily compare it to 
the old configuration, and make a log of programming changes. I have found 
myself making adjustments periodically on Optics as many of my sites are 2 to 4 
hours away (each way).

Thanks,
Kienan
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Optics-RE

[Kienan Maxfield]

No, but it would be a great idea. Another feature that would be nice would be 
an option to export/import complete configurations. 

-Kienan

> On Mar 2, 2019, at 10:04 PM, Jay  wrote:
> 
> Hi all,
> 
> Does optics RE have a history of changes made to setpoints/settings?
> 
> I’m pretty sure not, but wanted to check,
> 
> Thx
> 
> Jay
> 
> PS. And if not might be a good thing to add?
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Re: [RE-wrenches] module level control for offgrid

[Kienan Maxfield]

Jay,

I'm interested in this too, but I don't have any good answers (I was hoping 
that someone else would have responded by now). I know that this doesn't answer 
the question... but my only comment is to use a pole mount whenever possible. 
Rapid shutdown only applies to systems on a building or where the PV system 
conductors penetrate beyond 3' into a building before reaching the PV system 
disconnect. For a pole mount, as long as your equipment is on the outside wall, 
you can easily get to the PV system disconnect within 3' of wire length from 
the building penetration so no rapid shutdown of any kind is required. The 
battery system is considered a separate system in the 2017 code and there is no 
requirement for rapid shutdown of any kind in that system.

Thanks,
Kienan


Maxfield Solar
maxfieldso...@hotmail.com<mailto:maxfieldso...@hotmail.com>
(801) 477-0-SUN (477-0786)
(801) 631-5584 (Cell)

From: RE-wrenches  on behalf of jay 

Sent: Wednesday, January 30, 2019 6:02 PM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: [RE-wrenches] module level control for offgrid

HI All,

Well its the new year and Module level control is here. 690.12 (B)(2)

Does anyone have any updates as to products that work with CC's that meet it?

Thx
jay

Peltz Power




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Re: [RE-wrenches] Radian orders hardware problems

[Kienan Maxfield]

I have installed a whole lot of GSLCs and Radians. That is the primary product 
I've installed over the last 5 years. I have always purchased the Radian with 
the GSLC175-PV-120/240 which comes pre-wired with three shunts etc.

I have never had any problems with missing or broken/cracked parts but I have 
seen the wiring come loose in shipping. I saw one shunt that melted due to an 
under-torqued bolt.

I had a Flex-Net that was pre-wired wrong. That issue cost me an extra trip to 
the remote site at over 8 hours of drive time alone because the initial 
misdiagnosis was a faulty Flex-Net. That one took me a long time to diagnose 
because I was operating under the assumption that the factory wouldn't have 
wired it wrong. Of course, tech support never guessed that was the issue 
either. This was the one time that I felt like the manufacturer should have 
definitely compensated me for some of my costs... but I didn't figure that 
they'd go for that idea so I didn't ask.

I have had a lot of warranty issues with the earlier Radians and the old Mate 
3, but so far I've had really good luck recent Radians for off-grid use and 
with the new Mate 3s. The strangest issue I've had (and still have) with a 
Radian is that at one site, every once in a while, the grid-tied radian gets 
stuck in export mode and it'll drain the battery to somewhere around 85% or 
lower, sometimes exporting until 1 A.M. It is very infrequent and impossible to 
predict so that issue has never been solved.

Thanks,
Kienan

Maxfield Solar
maxfieldso...@hotmail.com<mailto:maxfieldso...@hotmail.com>
(801) 477-0-SUN (477-0786)
(801) 631-5584 (Cell)

From: RE-wrenches  on behalf of 
William Miller 
Sent: Tuesday, December 4, 2018 12:39 PM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Radian orders hardware problems


Chris:



We mostly install 8048 inverters.  Regardless, you need all of the hardware for 
installing a 4048 or an 8048 and any GSLC.  Not having them is a huge headache 
and cost.  I can’t believe Outback is still letting this happen.



I would familiarize myself with what is needed and inventory as soon as the 
equipment is received.  Here is a partial list, from memory, and partial photo 
attached.  I can’t guarantee this list is complete, but it is a start.



1. 2 or 4 8 MM bolts and washers for Pos and Neg ports.

2. Remove and check shunt for cracks.

3. All Neg bus bar parts.  Includes two or three bars, 8mm nuts and washers 
(photo below).

4. All Pos bus bar parts.  Includes two or three bars, 8mm nuts and washers 
(photo below).

5. Flat plate with 10 holes for ganging inverter breakers (photo below).

6. Screws to mount breakers and FNDC to panels.

7. Dead-front screws.

8. Cover screws.



[cid:image004.jpg@01D48BC6.14159050]



Some of the above parts ship with the inverters, some with the GSLCs.



When you are aligning negative busses to bolt them to bottom of inverter, be 
very careful if you need to move the bars to align with holes.  It is real easy 
to fracture the sub-standard shunt bases.  See attached photo comparing the 
kind of shunt you want versus what Outback ships.  I am looking for a source 
for the sold-base units. Anyone know for sure where to find the good ones?



[cid:image006.jpg@01D48BC6.14159050]



I hope this information and level of detail will help some of you save the 
headaches and frustration I have suffered.



William





[Gradient Cap_mini]
Lic 773985
millersolar.com<http://www.millersolar.com/>
805-438-5600



From: RE-wrenches 
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org<mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org>]
 On Behalf Of 
cwar...@entech-engineering.com<mailto:cwar...@entech-engineering.com>
Sent: Tuesday, December 04, 2018 2:20 AM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Radian orders hardware problems



I have only installed two so far on the small island I live on and had none of 
these problems.  We have installed 4048's and I am wondering if these problems 
are with 8048s or 4048s?  Thank you, Chris Warfel




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Re: [RE-wrenches] outback skybox

[Kienan Maxfield]

Jay,

I haven't used it but the surge load capacities are really pathetic. It also 
doesn't support stacking so if you need more backup power, then at least for 
now, you're out of luck. (I don't know if they have plans to add stacking 
support or not.) I would say that it is really only for grid-tied systems (no 
off-grid) with low to moderately low backup needs.

As to your specific questions...

No, it does not require any external interface. It can be programmed directly 
from the integrated screen and it connects directly to the internet without any 
external devices. I believe you still need an external router if you want to 
connect it to wi-fi. I don't think it even could be used with a Mate 3 (or Mate 
3s).

I'm not quite sure on the Rapid Shut Down. I am quite sure that they have a 
compatible Rapid Shut Down solution that will suffice for about 1 month and 7 
days but after 2019. I'm not quite sure what 
we'll do... If anyone else can answer this question, that would be awesome!


-Kienan

Maxfield Solar
maxfieldso...@hotmail.com<mailto:maxfieldso...@hotmail.com>
(801) 477-0-SUN (477-0786)
(801) 631-5584 (Cell)

From: RE-wrenches  on behalf of jay 

Sent: Friday, November 23, 2018 4:30 PM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: [RE-wrenches] outback skybox

HI All,

Anyone install a Skybox yet?

And if you have comments?

My questions are:

Does it have module level shut down capabilities?

Does it need or can it use the mate 3s or does it use some other device?

thx
jay

peltz power





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Re: [RE-wrenches] Ni-Fe update?

[Kienan Maxfield]

Thanks Dan. You mentioned some excellent pointers.

One advantage to using a 24 or 48 V system is that you don't have as bad of 
compatibility issues. Depending on the brand (and therefore the maximum 
charging voltage and maximum voltage tolerance specifications) you can flex the 
number of cells per string. You can't really do it with a 12 V battery because 
10 cells in series is too high for a lot of equipment, and 9 cells is too low, 
but 9.5 cells would be just right for many brands. With a 24V system, you can 
use 19 cells, and with a 48V system then you can choose between 38, 39, and 40 
cells depending on the equipment you're using.

I am using an Outback Radian inverter, and the charge voltage for a 40 cell 
battery would actually void my warranty if I were to fully charge it with the 
inverter still connected, so because of my equipment, I use 38 cell strings. 
Because of this string length, I can fully charge my batteries from a generator 
through the inverter if I wanted, but because I have finally added enough PV, I 
never waste the fuel to do it. I have heard that the XW inverters can actually 
handle the full 40 cell voltage so if you're doing your design around Ni-Fe 
batteries then that might be a better choice.



Jay,

As far as water use... my battery powers a micro-grid and my parent's 
commercial building so my water usage does not accurately reflect what a house 
may use but we could do some math and estimate it


  *   My battery is 2000 Ah @ 48V (nominal) and my PV is 18 kW, I have a 7.2 kW 
Bergey windmill on a 160' tower, and I have to run my 22 kW generator for a few 
hours perhaps 10  to 15 days per year.

  1.  I have heard that with water consumption is more closely related to PV 
size than battery size (I am not sure about that). I use roughly somewhere 
around 20 gallons per month. If you were to combine all my power sources, 
perhaps it would be fair to say that it's the equivalent of having 20 kW of PV 
so I would estimate that you will use 1 gallon of water every month per kW of 
PV.
  2.  If we go by battery size, I use a gallon per 100 Ah @ 48V. So if you have 
a 500 Ah, 48V battery then maybe it would use 5 gallons per month. If you have 
a 400 Ah, 24V battery then perhaps it might use 2 gallons per month.

  *   I think that #1 above would be more accurate. Perhaps if I were to 
calculate out my Wh/month of charging then that would be even more accurate 
but I don't think I'll do that today. These gas differently than Lead Acid 
batteries... Lead acid batteries only gas when you charge them above a certain 
voltage (the latter part of the charge) but Ni-Fe batteries gas during all 
phases of the charge cycle. That's probably a large factor of why they use more 
water than Lead Acid batteries.
  *   I would be really interested to hear what other's water usage might be. 
Dan, have you monitored your water usage at all?
  *   Dan, do you have the auto watering system? Iron Edison did a recall a 
couple years ago on their auto watering system because it could concentrate 
hydrogen so I ended up waiting a long time for mine. Now that I finally have 
it, I can just hook up the pump and watch it go. It is so much easier.

Thanks,
Kienan



Maxfield Solar
maxfieldso...@hotmail.com<mailto:maxfieldso...@hotmail.com>
(801) 477-0-SUN (477-0786)
(801) 631-5584 (Cell)

From: RE-wrenches  on behalf of Jay 

Sent: Thursday, November 22, 2018 8:42 AM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Ni-Fe update?

Hi Dan and Kienan

I’m curious how much water you are adding monthly?

Jay
Peltz Power.

On Nov 22, 2018, at 7:08 AM, Dan Fink 
mailto:danbo...@gmail.com>> wrote:

Wrenches; I have run my house on 12 volt NiFe batteries for 3 years now. I was 
going to write a long essay, but Kienen beat me to it. It's an excellent 
analysis, I agree with each of his bullet points.

All I'll add is that the batteries charge with decent efficiency up to 80% SOC. 
To get that last 20%, they do require 1.65 volts per cell, which most 
standalone inverter / chargers won't do off a generator - they freak out at a 
bit above 15v and shut down.

I've used 2 tactics to get that last 20% when using a generator, and I have 
experienced the same issue that Kienen mentioned -- they need to get a nice 
strong, charge cycle every so often or else they will behave like a heavily 
sulfated FLA, but of course the NiFes don't sulfate.

1) after charging to 80% SOC with the generator, both of my charge controllers 
(outback and midnite) have no problem being programmed to a 16.5v absorb cycle, 
I set absorb at 6 hours, on a sunny day that does the trick here.

2) If no long, sunny day available and you are forced to use a generator and 
charger that won't let you get to 16.5v, remove one cell from the series 
string, and charge the other 9 cells. Then put the one you removed back in the 
string, and remove one of the ones you discharged, and generator charge aga

Re: [RE-wrenches] Ni-Fe update?

[Kienan Maxfield]

Dan,

I have been living on Ni-Fe batteries for several years now and I have somewhat 
mixed feelings. I love them but I also dislike some aspects of them. First of 
all, as everyone mentions, they have a very low round-trip Wh efficiency, and 
secondly, they do use a lot of water. Otherwise, they are quite good. Iron 
Edison is great with tech support and they have the voltage parameters figured 
out really well. I believe that there are a lot of myths out there about Ni-Fe, 
but from what I've seen and heard, if you can afford them, if you can make sure 
to have an oversized PV array, and if you have time to top them off with 
distilled water every month (never skip a month!), they are a really great 
battery.

If you do use Ni-Fe, I have a few suggestions/tips...


  *   First of all, never try hydro-caps with these batteries!!! I found mixed 
information on this one so I called them up and the owner of the Hydro-caps 
company claimed that they are compatible with Ni-Fe so I figured I'd give them 
a try. The Hydro-caps started to melt and they failed to release any of the 
pressure. This caused two of the batteries to explode. Thankfully I had two 
extra identical Ni-Fe batteries so I just switched them out as an experiment 
(and removed all the Hydro-caps) and my system is running fine.

  *   Iron-Edison sells an "auto watering system" and a compatible "water 
cart." I highly recommend this accessory, but of course, you (or the customer) 
only fill the batteries while you or the customer is carefully monitoring it. 
You never leave it going to "keep them topped off. If you have this system 
installed then watering the batteries is so easy. It's a breeze.  If you're 
filling these by hand then forget it... they would be terrible...

  *   They also sell and recommend a deionizing filter that is supposedly good 
enough for purifying the water for the battery. This would cut the cost of the 
distilled water and since Iron Edison is the one holding the warranty, I have a 
fairly good level of confidence that it won't hurt the battery. If it did end 
up hurting the battery, it wouldn't void the warranty.

  *   My batteries do get very cold (perhaps 10°F inside the electrolyte) and 
they don't seem to mind too much. Perhaps they do have a somewhat lower 
capacity.

  *   Make sure they aren't undersized or else they'll struggle with the surge 
loads.

  *   The PV array needs to be quite large. Make sure that the PV array can 
produce at least a C/6 at the nominal battery voltage, and C/5 or C/4 is better 
if the customer will be running much during the day. In other words, if you 
have a 500 Ah 48V bank you should make sure that the array is an absolute 
minimum of 4 kW (500 * 48 / 6 = 4,000). These batteries need a hard charge 
every now and then or else they start to act like they are going bad. If you 
take a battery that seems to be going bad and you give it a really good hard 
charge then they often come right back and there is nothing wrong with them.

  *   I wouldn't use these on a grid-tied system.

  *   I have always been skeptical about pre-packaged systems. Iron Edison 
seems like a good company but I still don't know if I like the pre-packaged 
idea.

  *   After taking my previous points into consideration, if the customer is 
still leaning that way and they had the budget, I wouldn't hesitate to use a 
Ni-Fe, but on the other hand, most people would weigh the factors and decide 
that it's too much up-front investment, and/or too much maintenance. Many who 
are willing to do the maintenance don't have the funds, and many who have the 
funds wouldn't be okay with the maintenance. For the first case, Lead-Acid is 
definitely the way to go, and for the second case, LiFe-PO4 is better. That 
being said there are a few people who will weigh all the factors and still 
gladly go for the Ni-Fe because if you go install a Lithium battery tomorrow, 
my Ni-Fe battery will still most likely be alive and strong when your lithium 
battery goes out.

I hope this helps a little!

Thanks,
Kienan



Maxfield Solar
maxfieldso...@hotmail.com<mailto:maxfieldso...@hotmail.com>
(801) 477-0-SUN (477-0786)
(801) 631-5584 (Cell)

From: RE-wrenches  on behalf of 
jerrysgarage01 
Sent: Wednesday, November 21, 2018 8:30 PM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Ni-Fe update?

Wrenches
I have used Iron Edison Batteries and 12 volts is tough but l have had no 
issues at 48, you can set the high side voltage enough to work well. They are a 
very thirsty battery technology but may last for ever. Round trip efficiency is 
70% at best so a larger array is required and the batteries don't like it to 
cold either.
Jerry



Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone

 Original message 
From: Ken Schaal 
Date: 11/21/18 11:36 AM (GMT-08:00)
To: RE-wrenches 
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Ni-Fe update?

Hey alexis.
Any thoughts regarding these

Re: [RE-wrenches] 2 wire to 3 wire start on Older ONAN 12.5JC

[Kienan Maxfield]

I absolutely agree. The Atkinson AGSCM is really good and super reliable. They 
work on almost every generator I can think of. They are the most universal auto 
Gen starts available.

Thanks,
Kienan

On Nov 16, 2018, at 3:35 AM, Tump mailto:t...@swnl.net>> wrote:


ATKINSON ELECTRONICS, INC.
Web Site: www.atkinsonelectronics.com

While these might seem complicated they are well thought out and  easy to 
program despite the many pages of instructions. A simple jumper wire and then 
pressing the select button will scroll you thru the various settings. Using a 
DVOM one sets the voltage 0-5 vdc for the setting. One can set them up for 
monitoring house battery voltage, starter battery, daily run-monthly run. Once 
you understand and are not overwhelmed by the enclosed paper work they work 
well.

Need fuses to protect the unit and a momentary on button to reset the unit, we 
usually install them in a plastic box w/ a clear cover so we can see indicator 
lights & or lock out light requiring a push of the momentary button.

On Nov 15, 2018, at 4:01 PM, Dana 
mailto:d...@solarwork.com>> wrote:

All Wise ones:
I have a client who purchased an ONAN 12.5JC that was in standby service from a 
SoCal school desert installation. It turns out it is a 3-wire start.
I know there are a few 3-wire to 2-wire start converter boxes out there and 
some are VERY complicated to program & are marginally reliable or appropriate 
due to phantom loads for an off-grid installation.

What are your recommendations, please?




Dana Orzel  Great Solar Works, Inc.
C - 208.721.7003   
d...@solarwork.com
Idaho Contractor - # 028765 Idaho PV # 028374
NABCEP # 051112-136   
www.solarwork.biz
"Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988"
P Please consider the environment before printing this email.


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t...@swnl.netmailto:t...@swnl.net%22%20%5Co%20%22blocked::mailto:t...@swnl.net>
   
www.SWNL.nethttp://www.swnl.net/%22%20%5Co%20%22blocked::http://www.swnl.net/>
Solarwinds Northernlights
   Serving Mid Coast Maine & Northern California
 207-832-7574   Cl. 610-517-8401
  Blair "TUMP" May

     MAINE'S CHARTER 
  NABCEP"Certified PV Installer"

    MAINE'S CHARTER 
  Trace Xantrex "Certified" Dealer / Installer"



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Re: [RE-wrenches] Mate 3 shutdown

[Kienan Maxfield]

Hey Dana,

Sorry for the delayed response. I have experienced many problems just like you 
describe with the Mate 3 (which is no longer in production). I've tried 
firmware and everything else to no avail. There were several other problems as 
well. Outback was really good about free replacements while under warranty but 
the new one often might end up with the same issue.

Outback Power recently came out with the "Mate 3S" (notice the "S") and their 
aim with this new model was to fix all these issues. I have used several and so 
far, it seems like they have successfully fixed all of these problems. I have 
had no issues with the new Mate 3S. Before they finally released the Mate 3S, 
they said that they would upgrade any problematic Mate 3 that's still under 
warranty for free with the new Mate 3S. I would give them a call and see what 
they can do. This is definitely a defect that was widespread so I think they 
will take care of it for you as long as it's a new enough system.

Thanks,
Kienan


Maxfield Solar (off-grid specialist)
maxfieldso...@hotmail.com<mailto:maxfieldso...@hotmail.com>
(801) 631-5584 (Cell)

From: RE-wrenches  on behalf of MiJo 
Nels 
Sent: Friday, October 12, 2018 9:10 PM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Mate 3 shutdown

Keep an SD card in your mate3, to allow it to record events even when it 
falters..

Get Outlook for Android


From: RE-wrenches  on behalf of Dana 

Sent: Friday, October 12, 2018 9:52:38 AM
To: 'RE-wrenches'
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Mate 3 shutdown


Tried this & no change





Dana Orzel   NABCEP # 051112-136

Cell - 208.721.7003 Email - 
d...@solarwork.com<mailto:d...@solarwork.com>

Great Solar Works, Idaho Inc
www.solarwork.biz<http://www.solarwork.biz>

ID PV Contractor - # 028765 - ID PV Electrician # 028374

"Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988"

Please consider the environment before printing this email.





From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf 
Of Ray
Sent: Wednesday, October 10, 2018 5:24 PM
To: re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Mate 3 shutdown



Possible it could be the connectors.  Maybe try switching the cables, and/ or 
clean the ports with contact cleaner.  Also check in the ports that all the 
little springy pin things ( that's official terminology). are all up at the 
same angle.  I've seen those get bent sometimes.

Ray Walters

Remote Solar

303 505-8760

On 10/10/18 5:51 PM, Dana wrote:

My learned fellow Sparkies,



I have at home off-grid Radian with Mate 3 monitor. Periodically & randomly my 
Mate 3 blanks out and requires a reboot (un-plug / re-plug). While this is not 
such a big deal to address, the total loss of ALL the performance & usage data 
is really concerning in the event that I need the data for a T/S.



I have not called OB as there is no cell service at or near the system and to 
do so is a huge time killer back & forth & waiting to check again. I am 
convinced the brain trust here is the answer.



Has anyone else experienced this?

Any remedial action to correct this issue?



Let me know & thanks.





Dana Orzel   NABCEP # 051112-136

Cell - 208.721.7003 Email - 
d...@solarwork.com<mailto:d...@solarwork.com>

Great Solar Works, Idaho Inc
www.solarwork.biz<http://www.solarwork.biz>

ID PV Contractor - # 028765 - ID PV Electrician # 028374

"Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988"

Please consider the environment before printing this email.








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Re: [RE-wrenches] generator search

[Kienan Maxfield]

Ray,

That's not going to work for the Cummins RS water-cooled generators without 
some hacking. The water cooled models do use an antifreeze mixture so they can 
withstand temperatures down to -50°F without a heater, but they have a circuit 
that prevents the generator from even trying to start if the coolant is below a 
certain temperature. I don't remember what that temperature is but I know on 
mine its above 20° F. The air-cooled generators only use a small heater in the 
engine oil reservoir and there's an optional one under the battery. I know that 
the air-cooled models can start in colder temperatures without a heater than 
the water-cooled models. It is strongly recommended by Cummins to use the oil 
heater in the air-cooled models if the generator will get below 0°F, but the 
local techs recommend it for 15°F and below because the generators start easier 
if the oil is above 15°F. I've read that it also affects the overall longevity 
of the engine.

I live off-grid up in the mountains, and most of my customers are off-grid up 
in the mountains. I agree that this is far from ideal. If the generator could 
be installed in an underground bunker where it doesn't freeze, that would be 
nice. I just have to write it off as the cost of having a backup power source 
ready and waiting when it matters the most... when it's crazy cold outside.

Thanks,
Kienan

From: RE-wrenches  on behalf of Ray 

Sent: Monday, April 9, 2018 7:14 PM
To: re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] generator search


  We've had gen sets at 11,000 ft and way below zero start on propane for 
decades without using the block or water heaters.  Ridiculous electric heating 
loads on the other hand are a very bad idea off grid.  Just make sure the 
propane supply lines are large enough so the pressure regulator doesn't freeze 
up.

Ray Walters

Remote Solar

On 4/9/18 2:46 PM, Michael Morningstar wrote:
Yes, the Cummins technician that commissions our generators insists that 
locations with consistent low’s below 15F require the coolant heater. All but 
two of my installs(outdoor) have omitted connecting the heater, and have seen 
some brief sub-0 temperatures but generally average mid-30s. One of the two 
that does have the heater connected, is located at a high elevation telecom 
site, and when I serviced the system after not being there for a couple of 
winters, it was found that someone had shut off both the battery charger 
circuit and the coolant heater circuit and the generator didn’t seem worse for 
the wear, and no coolant temp codes were thrown.

On Apr 9, 2018, at 1:14 PM, David Katz 
> wrote:

Check to see if it has a 120 vac requirement to float the battery. The 20 kw 
one I have has a big electrical drain
David

On Mon, Apr 9, 2018 at 11:50 AM jay 
> wrote:
HI All,

I’ve got a new project wanting a 22-25kw single phase 120/240vac water cooled 
propane sound attenuated generator for an off grid situation.  I’m not going to 
be
With AGS activation.

I”ve been looking at the Kohler 24 RCL ( meets all the above criteria) but I’m 
checking to see if I can get it to work with 2 wire AGS.

Onan also has one as well.

Are there any other make/models that people would recommend or would caution me 
against?

Thanks

jay

peltz power




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Re: [RE-wrenches] generator search

[Kienan Maxfield]

If it's going in a cold climate, the Cummins RS generators absolutely require a 
coolant heater which is a significant AC load. Otherwise, they don't require 
any AC power but they do need their battery to remain charged. For this reason, 
they do come with an integrated charger, but if you have a more efficient 
charger then you can leave the 120V AC input on the gen set disconnected and 
just hook up the better charger. There's plenty of space in the generator 
enclosure for an aftermarket charger. Or if you have a good spare 12V solar 
panel laying around with a charge controller, then you shouldn't need to use a 
120V charger at all 


Thanks,
Kienan


From: RE-wrenches  on behalf of 
David Katz 
Sent: Monday, April 9, 2018 2:14 PM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] generator search

Check to see if it has a 120 vac requirement to float the battery. The 20 kw 
one I have has a big electrical drain
David

On Mon, Apr 9, 2018 at 11:50 AM jay 
> wrote:
HI All,

I’ve got a new project wanting a 22-25kw single phase 120/240vac water cooled 
propane sound attenuated generator for an off grid situation.  I’m not going to 
be
With AGS activation.

I”ve been looking at the Kohler 24 RCL ( meets all the above criteria) but I’m 
checking to see if I can get it to work with 2 wire AGS.

Onan also has one as well.

Are there any other make/models that people would recommend or would caution me 
against?

Thanks

jay

peltz power




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Re: [RE-wrenches] Lorentz pumps

[Kienan Maxfield]

I have been very impressed with the Grundfos SQFlex pumps. I have installed 
several of them over the last 6 or 7 years, and I haven't seen any issues yet. 
I've had way better success with them than with the sun pumps for wells. They 
are extremely versatile, efficient, and seemingly fantastic quality.

I've heard great things about the Lorentz pumps, but I haven't used them so I 
can't offer any comparisons. I get an awesome price for Grundfos from my 
regional distributor which is Delco Western. I've looked into a few other 
wholesale places, and they can't seem to touch Delco Western's prices. If you 
want more info on the Grundfos, you can contact me off-list, and I'll give you 
my pricing and any info you may want.

Thanks,
Kienan


From: RE-wrenches  on behalf of John 
Blittersdorf 
Sent: Wednesday, February 28, 2018 5:09 PM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Lorentz pumps

Jay,

I have one on my own well 480’ down a 800’ deep well.  At the time, they could 
only handle 500’ but since then have one that can pump from 1000’ and more.  I 
only sold a few.  I did have to replace the circuit board on the controller a 
couple of years ago and delt with a Lorentz dealer which seems to be the major 
one located in Texas.
Overall, I have been impressed with the pump.  It turns 17 Year’s old this year 
and started out as a direct solar pump with 4  100 watt panels but I later 
connected it to a 48 volt system when a cabin was built near the wellhead.

John Blittersdorf
Solar guru at Rob Stubbins  Electrical And Solar Contractors.


On Wed, Feb 28, 2018 at 3:39 PM jay 
> wrote:
HI All,

I’ve got a client asking me about Lorentz pumps.

I know they have sort of come and gone from the USA.

Is anyone using them, have any pros/cons vs Grundfos and where to get them?

thanks

jay

peltz power
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Re: [RE-wrenches] outback FM-100 CC

[Kienan Maxfield]

Jay,

I just installed my first FM-100 earlier this month. (I hadn't gotten it yet 
when you originally posted this email). My thoughts so far are that it is 
marvelous. With only one in the field and one in my inventory, I don't have 
much experience with it yet. When I was at SPP in October, Zeke had been beta 
testing one for a while, and he seemed very happy with it.

Because it doesn't have a screen and all the programming has to be done through 
the Mate 3, I would most likely not use this on a site where I was not planning 
on having an onsite Mate 3. Otherwise, I wouldn't hesitate at all to use it. I 
like the mounting system they developed for it, and it has GFP, so you don't 
need a GFP breaker. It is capable of running 300V on the array, and I really 
like it overall.

Thanks,
Kienan


>From Jay -

HI All,

Does anyone have any experience with the Outback FM -100 CC?
thoughts, pros cons etc?

Its new but I’m sure there are some of you out there that have been using it.

thanks

jay


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Re: [RE-wrenches] Panelboards in Series - Bus Ratings

[Kienan Maxfield]

Corey,

Here's my interpretation. If anyone can point out where I am in error, I would 
appreciate it if you could correct me.

I just quickly reviewed 705.12(D)(2) and it appears that neither of your sizing 
calculations are quite right.

Bear in mind that the maximum current of the inverters is defined to be the 
inverter rated output * 125% [see NEC 690.8(A)(3)].

In 705.12(D)(2)(3) repeatedly says "125% of the inverter output circuit 
current" and the only time it mentions an ocpd seems to be in reference to the 
OCPD between the utility and the busbar. Therefore I would conclude that the 
answer to your question would be that you would need to base the size of the 
bus bars off of the sum of the maximum current from all of the inverters 
(meaning 125% of the rated current).

So if you had 4 sub panels, each having 6 inverters rated at 72.2 A each, your 
larger combiner panel would have to be...
72.2 * 125% = 90.25 A (max current)
90.25 A * 6 = 541.5 A (max current from each sub panel)
541.5 A * 4 = 2166 A for the larger dedicated combiner main panel.



Does this make sense?

Thanks,
Kienan[https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/8017159/seal.jpg][https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/8017159/WilsonPro.jpg]

Maxfield Solar
maxfieldso...@hotmail.com
(801) 477-0-SUN (477-0786)
(801) 631-5584 (Cell)

———Original Question 

*Scenario*

   - 600A *dedicated PV* subpanel w/ (6) 100A circuit breakers, each
   feeding a 60kW inverter (72.2A rated output)
   - Subpanel is fused at 600A and connects to a larger main
   distribution/combiner panel along with other similarly configured subpanels

*Question*

   - Must the main panelboard be sized based on the combined total of OCPDs
   protecting the subpanels, e.g. 600A + 600A + 600A + 600A = 2400A main panel
   rating?
   - Or can the main panelboard be sized based on the combined total of
   inverter output ratings feeding the panel, e.g. 433.2A + 433.2A + 433.2A +
   433.2A = 1732.8A main panel rating?

--
Corey Shalanski

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[RE-wrenches] Pioneer Party Lodgistics

[Kienan Maxfield]

Wrenches,

I am considering attending the Solar Pioneer Party, and I figured that several 
of you might as well. Since it is quite a ways from any airport, I figured I 
may as well try to help everyone who is flying in to figure out a way to share 
rides and thereby reduce costs and emissions. I'm reaching out to this list and 
to the SEI instructors and I will just make a database with anyone who responds.

Please respond off list at kienan@maxfield.solar if either

—You are flying in to either the San Francisco airport or the Santa Rosa 
airport and you would be willing to split the costs for a ride into Willits 
(probably split the costs for a rental car, but if other drivers respond, you 
can pay them directly instead.)
—You are driving and will be going through either San Francisco or Santa Rosa 
and you would be willing to pick someone up at an airport for a fee.

Thank-you very much!

Kienan Maxfield


[https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/8017159/seal.jpg][https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/8017159/WilsonPro.jpg]

Maxfield Solar
maxfieldso...@hotmail.com<mailto:maxfieldso...@hotmail.com>
(801) 477-0-SUN (477-0786)
(801) 631-5584 (Cell)
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Re: [RE-wrenches] PV to EV charging

[Kienan Maxfield]

I don't think this quite meets your requirements but SolarEdge just came out 
with a really cool PV inverter / EV charger Hybrid. It has a maximum EV charge 
rate of 9.6 kW and up to 7.6 of that could be directly PV supplied. You can set 
up advanced features such as TOU and it tracks consumption/production directly 
from a smartphone. The EV charging can also be turned on and off remotely. 
Check it out here - https://www.solaredge.com/us/products/ev-charger

It would be totally possible to AC couple it to an off-grid inverter, however, 
you would probably want an array DC coupled to the battery backup system as 
well. I guess it depends on the budget...

Thanks,
Kienan


—— Marco Said ——

Aloha all.

Does anyone know of a readily available product that would allow one to charge 
an EV directly from a PV array (with an inverter) with or without battery 
storage that would NOT be connected to the grid

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Re: [RE-wrenches] Tying XW MPPT-80 controller into XW PDP

[Kienan Maxfield]

I don't really use Schneider much but couldn't you use the MidNite 600V Din 
rail breakers on the din rail in the XW Power Distribution Panel? I do realize 
that the available sizes would be limiting (they only come in two sizes, 16A 
and 20A) but if you only have one string, that would work. I guess it depends 
on which modules you use and how much you oversize the array. Those breakers 
are much cheaper than the disconnects, and it would look much nicer.

Cheers,
Kienan Maxfield
Maxfield Solar
801-631-5584
maxfieldso...@hotmail.com


Kevin Pegg Said ..

> I am curious if anyone has come up with a better means to tie one, or two
> 600V fused PV input disconnects into an XW PDP system with the MPPT-80
> controller? Attached photo is what I came up with. Not very elegant. It's
> a shame this component doesn't integrate well with the rest of the XW gear
> - without any bottom or top knockouts what other options exist?
>
> Perhaps Midnite Solar will come up with a replacement cover plate that
> integrates the HV disconnects in a much more elegant way than this.
>
> My customer's comment was "well it looks like a well-designed and
> aesthetically pleasing system, except for those controllers look like they
> are hacked into the system as an afterthought." I had to agree.

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