Re: [RE-wrenches] High altitude off-grid systems

[Darryl Thayer]

I was involved with a singular system at about 10,000 feet many years ago.
I was told by Chris Frietus of Outback the performance would automatically
reduce due to low air pressure reducing the natural convection cooling of
the FX inverters and MX 60s.

On Thu, Apr 11, 2019 at 2:28 PM  wrote:

> Hi folks:
>
>
>
> I am curious as to how many of you sell/install battery/inverter systems
> at high altitudes?  Have you had any particular issues with them?  Last
> year we discovered (in a mostly costly fashion) that Schneider inverters
> (and also Outback) are not warranted above 6500 ft.
>
>
>
> Magnum inverters are warranted to 15,000 ft max altitude.
>
>
>
> Best,
>
>
>
> Chris Daum
>
> Oasis Montana Inc.
>
> 406-777-4309 or 4321
>
> 406-777-4309 fax
>
> www.oasismontana.com
>
>
>
>
> ___
> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance
>
> List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
>
> Change listserver email address & settings:
> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
>
> List-Archive:
> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html
>
> List rules & etiquette:
> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm
>
> Check out or update participant bios:
> www.members.re-wrenches.org
>
>
___
List sponsored by Redwood Alliance

List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org

Change listserver email address & settings:
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List-Archive: 
http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html

List rules & etiquette:
www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm

Check out or update participant bios:
www.members.re-wrenches.org

Re: [RE-wrenches] High altitude off-grid systems

[Martin Herzfeld]

1. In addition, manufactures provides guidance and altitude considerations
tables for those applications that require operation at high altitudes -
e.g. "altitudes in excess of 6,562 feet (2000 m)" of electromechanical
equipment (contactors and starters) and PV modules

2. For instance, one module manufacture "The installation place should be
less than 1,000m (3280ft) above sea level."  And higher altitude
installations are allowed only if wind pressure is a factor.

BTW, manufactures may not specifically follow NEC 90.9(B) and the dual
system of units :)

All the best,

Martin Herzfeld, Interstate Renewable Energy Council (IREC) Certified
Master Trainer ™ for Photovoltaics (PV) Installation Professional #IREC
10037
https://www.youracclaim.com/badges/a54a49a9-31cb-4f52-b35f-9d7c90630bb9/public_url
Adjunct Professor, Energy

California Solar Contractor License  #00833782  C46, D56, D31, C-7
Solar, Trenching, Pole Installation & Maintenance, Instrumentation

Contract Technical Inspector
Underwriters Laboratories (UL) Certified PV Installer #17, OSHA 30
OSHA-Authorized Construction Trainer #32-0105338
CompTIA Certified Technical Classroom Trainer (CTT+) #T3NSZCNBBKB4QTQG
https://www.youracclaim.com/badges/f23ae19b-0370-4ca1-99d1-418403a8faea/linked_in_profile

* Member, California Solar & Storage Association
* Professional Member, International Association of Electrical Inspectors
#7035507
* Accredited and Registered North American Board of Certified Energy
Practitioners (NABCEP) Continuing Education (CE) Provider



On Tue, Apr 16, 2019, 5:12 PM Jay  wrote:

> For the Radian
> Page 59 of the operators manual ( it’s a different set of environmental
> specifications than the install manual or data sheets)
> 2000m max altitude.
>
> Jay
> Peltz power.
>
> On Apr 16, 2019, at 12:11 PM,  ch...@oasismontana.com> wrote:
>
> Let’s see it in writing, in the manuals included with the components and
> in the online, downloadable manuals.  Clarity is of the essence!
>
>
>
> Chris Daum
>
> Oasis Montana Inc.
>
> 406-777-4309 or 4321
>
> 406-777-4309 fax
>
> www.oasismontana.com
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* RE-wrenches  *On
> Behalf Of *Lones Tuss
> *Sent:* Friday, April 12, 2019 1:14 PM
> *To:* RE-wrenches 
> *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] High altitude off-grid systems
>
>
>
> Hello All
>
> Outback’s Product Warranty is not based or negated by the altitude of the
> installation.  Altitude ratings ensure full spec operation of the equipment
> up to the stated elevation . As noted in several posts due to thinner air
> cooling of equipment can be affected. Additional cooling may be required
> and or additional products to achieve the necessary load requirements.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* RE-wrenches  *On
> Behalf Of *jerrysgarage01
> *Sent:* Friday, April 12, 2019 11:26 AM
> *To:* RE-wrenches 
> *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] High altitude off-grid systems
>
>
>
> Wrenches
>
> Here is the math, well the answer at sea level your body has 14.70 PSI
> exerted on it, at 10,000 feet you only have 10.163 PSI, reduced air
> pressure, reduced cooling or heating ability adjusted for standard sea
> level temp or just over 69%.
>
> I have done work in Hawaii on the big island up at the summit, it can be
> warm and very thin air, without air to cool no inverter will perform very
> well. I have some SMA, FX and Raidians in warm high altitude locations and
> added extra cooling to compensate for the lack of air. You will hear the
> cooling fans spinning faster, moving less air at higher altitudes.
>
> SMA sunny island does have a 9k plus operating altitude but de-rates at
> less the 7k.
>
> Jerry
>
> PV inspector
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone
>
>
>
>  Original message 
>
> From: Jay Pozner 
>
> Date: 4/12/19 10:06 AM (GMT-08:00)
>
> To: RE-wrenches 
>
> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] High altitude off-grid systems
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> We do a fair amount of systems at "altitude".  Recently we had an issue
> with a Radian system at about 10,000'.  An 8048 inverter screaming (fans
> running hard) with just 2000 watts of load.  I hounded tech support for two
> years, and even after switching power modules, etc in the end the techs
> claim a fairly substantial deration (that I can't quote right now) of
> inverter performance because of cooling issues.  We  ultimately added
> another inverter to the system at the end of last summer.  I hope this
> season we will see a better result.   It makes sense, given the difference
> in air density, but I do scratch my head and wonder why we haven't seen
> such issues with the olde

Re: [RE-wrenches] High altitude off-grid systems

[Jay]

For the Radian
Page 59 of the operators manual ( it’s a different set of environmental 
specifications than the install manual or data sheets)
2000m max altitude. 

Jay
Peltz power. 

> On Apr 16, 2019, at 12:11 PM,   wrote:
> 
> Let’s see it in writing, in the manuals included with the components and in 
> the online, downloadable manuals.  Clarity is of the essence!
>  
> Chris Daum
> Oasis Montana Inc.
> 406-777-4309 or 4321
> 406-777-4309 fax
> www.oasismontana.com
>  
>  
>  
> From: RE-wrenches  On Behalf Of 
> Lones Tuss
> Sent: Friday, April 12, 2019 1:14 PM
> To: RE-wrenches 
> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] High altitude off-grid systems
>  
> Hello All
> Outback’s Product Warranty is not based or negated by the altitude of the 
> installation.  Altitude ratings ensure full spec operation of the equipment 
> up to the stated elevation . As noted in several posts due to thinner air 
> cooling of equipment can be affected. Additional cooling may be required and 
> or additional products to achieve the necessary load requirements.
>  
>  
>  
> From: RE-wrenches  On Behalf Of 
> jerrysgarage01
> Sent: Friday, April 12, 2019 11:26 AM
> To: RE-wrenches 
> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] High altitude off-grid systems
>  
> Wrenches
> Here is the math, well the answer at sea level your body has 14.70 PSI 
> exerted on it, at 10,000 feet you only have 10.163 PSI, reduced air pressure, 
> reduced cooling or heating ability adjusted for standard sea level temp or 
> just over 69%.
> I have done work in Hawaii on the big island up at the summit, it can be warm 
> and very thin air, without air to cool no inverter will perform very well. I 
> have some SMA, FX and Raidians in warm high altitude locations and added 
> extra cooling to compensate for the lack of air. You will hear the cooling 
> fans spinning faster, moving less air at higher altitudes.
> SMA sunny island does have a 9k plus operating altitude but de-rates at less 
> the 7k.
> Jerry
> PV inspector 
>  
>  
>  
> Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone
>  
> ---- Original message 
> From: Jay Pozner 
> Date: 4/12/19 10:06 AM (GMT-08:00)
> To: RE-wrenches 
> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] High altitude off-grid systems
>  
>  
>  
> We do a fair amount of systems at "altitude".  Recently we had an issue with 
> a Radian system at about 10,000'.  An 8048 inverter screaming (fans running 
> hard) with just 2000 watts of load.  I hounded tech support for two years, 
> and even after switching power modules, etc in the end the techs claim a 
> fairly substantial deration (that I can't quote right now) of inverter 
> performance because of cooling issues.  We  ultimately added another inverter 
> to the system at the end of last summer.  I hope this season we will see a 
> better result.   It makes sense, given the difference in air density, but I 
> do scratch my head and wonder why we haven't seen such issues with the older 
> FX's, and some of the older legacy systems?
>  
> I also know that the Midnite classic charge controllers seem to run the fans 
> quite hard as well.  I haven't had to replace any of the fans, and the 
> controllers are performing great, but wonder if that will be an issue in the 
> future.   It would be great if some manufactures would give us a quality, 
> competitively priced, equipment that is rated for altitude, but I don't think 
> there are that many options out there as of now
>  
>  
> .
> 
> Jay Pozner
> (970) 642-5554
> www.nunatakenergy.com
> NABCEP Certified PV Installer:
> Cert.#031310-177
> 
>  
>  
> On Fri, Apr 12, 2019 at 9:17 AM Steve Higgins  wrote:
> Not to add fuel to the fire... and it's been almost 7 years since I've been 
> with an Inverter manufacturer so here is my .02 cents...  So again, I hope 
> I'm not overstepping the boundaries of the Wrenches list. 
>  
> If I remember correctly the main issue with the high altitude installs are 
> some of the components that are used to build the inverter/controllers aren't 
> rated to be used at high altitude, one of the main components that have this 
> issue is the electrolytic capacitors.Of course, the specs vary from 
> component to component.   I've seen some rated as low as 8000 ft to some as 
> rated as high as 30,000 ft.   It really just depends on the part(s) that the 
> manufacturer used to build the product. 
>  
> As you gain altitude the temperatures and the air pressure decrease, as it 
> was explained to me years ago the problem is with the temperature decrease, 
> this will affect the capacitance of the capacitor.  The colder temps will 
> reduce the overall capacitance of the capacitor, jus

Re: [RE-wrenches] High altitude off-grid systems

[chris]

Let’s see it in writing, in the manuals included with the components and in the 
online, downloadable manuals.  Clarity is of the essence!
 
Chris Daum
Oasis Montana Inc.
406-777-4309 or 4321
406-777-4309 fax
 <http://www.oasismontana.com> www.oasismontana.com 
 
 
 
From: RE-wrenches  On Behalf Of 
Lones Tuss
Sent: Friday, April 12, 2019 1:14 PM
To: RE-wrenches 
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] High altitude off-grid systems
 
Hello All
Outback’s Product Warranty is not based or negated by the altitude of the 
installation.  Altitude ratings ensure full spec operation of the equipment up 
to the stated elevation . As noted in several posts due to thinner air cooling 
of equipment can be affected. Additional cooling may be required and or 
additional products to achieve the necessary load requirements. 
 
 
 
From: RE-wrenches mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org> > On Behalf Of jerrysgarage01
Sent: Friday, April 12, 2019 11:26 AM
To: RE-wrenches mailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> >
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] High altitude off-grid systems
 
Wrenches
Here is the math, well the answer at sea level your body has 14.70 PSI exerted 
on it, at 10,000 feet you only have 10.163 PSI, reduced air pressure, reduced 
cooling or heating ability adjusted for standard sea level temp or just over 
69%.
I have done work in Hawaii on the big island up at the summit, it can be warm 
and very thin air, without air to cool no inverter will perform very well. I 
have some SMA, FX and Raidians in warm high altitude locations and added extra 
cooling to compensate for the lack of air. You will hear the cooling fans 
spinning faster, moving less air at higher altitudes.
SMA sunny island does have a 9k plus operating altitude but de-rates at less 
the 7k.
Jerry
PV inspector 
 
 
 
Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone
 
 Original message 
From: Jay Pozner mailto:j...@nunatakenergy.com> > 
Date: 4/12/19 10:06 AM (GMT-08:00) 
To: RE-wrenches mailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> > 
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] High altitude off-grid systems 
 
 
 
We do a fair amount of systems at "altitude".  Recently we had an issue with a 
Radian system at about 10,000'.  An 8048 inverter screaming (fans running hard) 
with just 2000 watts of load.  I hounded tech support for two years, and even 
after switching power modules, etc in the end the techs claim a fairly 
substantial deration (that I can't quote right now) of inverter performance 
because of cooling issues.  We  ultimately added another inverter to the system 
at the end of last summer.  I hope this season we will see a better result.   
It makes sense, given the difference in air density, but I do scratch my head 
and wonder why we haven't seen such issues with the older FX's, and some of the 
older legacy systems?
 
I also know that the Midnite classic charge controllers seem to run the fans 
quite hard as well.  I haven't had to replace any of the fans, and the 
controllers are performing great, but wonder if that will be an issue in the 
future.   It would be great if some manufactures would give us a quality, 
competitively priced, equipment that is rated for altitude, but I don't think 
there are that many options out there as of now
 
 
.

  
<http://static.squarespace.com/static/52f26626e4b049d9fe1f4f70/t/52fd4d40e4b0c0844a0eb2de/1393270590052/?format=1500w>
 
Jay Pozner
(970) 642-5554
www.nunatakenergy.com <http://www.nunatakenergy.com/> 
NABCEP Certified PV Installer:
Cert.#031310-177
  
<http://static.squarespace.com/static/52f26626e4b049d9fe1f4f70/53067822e4b0822d0c7053a4/53067823e4b0ec57163c45a8/1392932899560/NABCEP%20PV%20Seal%20Jay.jpg?format=300w>
 
 
 
On Fri, Apr 12, 2019 at 9:17 AM Steve Higgins mailto:st...@surrette.com> > wrote:
Not to add fuel to the fire... and it's been almost 7 years since I've been 
with an Inverter manufacturer so here is my .02 cents...  So again, I hope I'm 
not overstepping the boundaries of the Wrenches list. 
 
If I remember correctly the main issue with the high altitude installs are some 
of the components that are used to build the inverter/controllers aren't rated 
to be used at high altitude, one of the main components that have this issue is 
the electrolytic capacitors.Of course, the specs vary from component to 
component.   I've seen some rated as low as 8000 ft to some as rated as high as 
30,000 ft.   It really just depends on the part(s) that the manufacturer used 
to build the product. 
 
As you gain altitude the temperatures and the air pressure decrease, as it was 
explained to me years ago the problem is with the temperature decrease, this 
will affect the capacitance of the capacitor.  The colder temps will reduce the 
overall capacitance of the capacitor, just like it will with a battery. 

These caps are generally used to filter noise from circuits, so when these 
fail, or the capacitance values fall, you do

Re: [RE-wrenches] High altitude off-grid systems

[Lones Tuss]

Hello All
Outback’s Product Warranty is not based or negated by the altitude of the 
installation.  Altitude ratings ensure full spec operation of the equipment up 
to the stated elevation . As noted in several posts due to thinner air cooling 
of equipment can be affected. Additional cooling may be required and or 
additional products to achieve the necessary load requirements.


From: RE-wrenches  On Behalf Of 
jerrysgarage01
Sent: Friday, April 12, 2019 11:26 AM
To: RE-wrenches 
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] High altitude off-grid systems

Wrenches
Here is the math, well the answer at sea level your body has 14.70 PSI exerted 
on it, at 10,000 feet you only have 10.163 PSI, reduced air pressure, reduced 
cooling or heating ability adjusted for standard sea level temp or just over 
69%.
I have done work in Hawaii on the big island up at the summit, it can be warm 
and very thin air, without air to cool no inverter will perform very well. I 
have some SMA, FX and Raidians in warm high altitude locations and added extra 
cooling to compensate for the lack of air. You will hear the cooling fans 
spinning faster, moving less air at higher altitudes.
SMA sunny island does have a 9k plus operating altitude but de-rates at less 
the 7k.
Jerry
PV inspector



Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone

 Original message 
From: Jay Pozner mailto:j...@nunatakenergy.com>>
Date: 4/12/19 10:06 AM (GMT-08:00)
To: RE-wrenches 
mailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org>>
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] High altitude off-grid systems



We do a fair amount of systems at "altitude".  Recently we had an issue with a 
Radian system at about 10,000'.  An 8048 inverter screaming (fans running hard) 
with just 2000 watts of load.  I hounded tech support for two years, and even 
after switching power modules, etc in the end the techs claim a fairly 
substantial deration (that I can't quote right now) of inverter performance 
because of cooling issues.  We  ultimately added another inverter to the system 
at the end of last summer.  I hope this season we will see a better result.   
It makes sense, given the difference in air density, but I do scratch my head 
and wonder why we haven't seen such issues with the older FX's, and some of the 
older legacy systems?

I also know that the Midnite classic charge controllers seem to run the fans 
quite hard as well.  I haven't had to replace any of the fans, and the 
controllers are performing great, but wonder if that will be an issue in the 
future.   It would be great if some manufactures would give us a quality, 
competitively priced, equipment that is rated for altitude, but I don't think 
there are that many options out there as of now


.
[http://static.squarespace.com/static/52f26626e4b049d9fe1f4f70/t/52fd4d40e4b0c0844a0eb2de/1393270590052/?format=1500w]
Jay Pozner
(970) 642-5554
www.nunatakenergy.com<http://www.nunatakenergy.com/>
NABCEP Certified PV Installer:
Cert.#031310-177
[http://static.squarespace.com/static/52f26626e4b049d9fe1f4f70/53067822e4b0822d0c7053a4/53067823e4b0ec57163c45a8/1392932899560/NABCEP%20PV%20Seal%20Jay.jpg?format=300w]


On Fri, Apr 12, 2019 at 9:17 AM Steve Higgins 
mailto:st...@surrette.com>> wrote:
Not to add fuel to the fire... and it's been almost 7 years since I've been 
with an Inverter manufacturer so here is my .02 cents...  So again, I hope I'm 
not overstepping the boundaries of the Wrenches list.

If I remember correctly the main issue with the high altitude installs are some 
of the components that are used to build the inverter/controllers aren't rated 
to be used at high altitude, one of the main components that have this issue is 
the electrolytic capacitors.Of course, the specs vary from component to 
component.   I've seen some rated as low as 8000 ft to some as rated as high as 
30,000 ft.   It really just depends on the part(s) that the manufacturer used 
to build the product.

As you gain altitude the temperatures and the air pressure decrease, as it was 
explained to me years ago the problem is with the temperature decrease, this 
will affect the capacitance of the capacitor.  The colder temps will reduce the 
overall capacitance of the capacitor, just like it will with a battery.

These caps are generally used to filter noise from circuits, so when these 
fail, or the capacitance values fall, you don't get the filtering you need and 
this induces noise into your circuitry possibly causing overall failure or 
worse,  the dreaded intermittent failure.   Generally, if the 
inverters/controllers are kept on and warm, you won't have too many problems, 
it's when they are in extremely cold temperatures is when you will start having 
issues.

Hope this helps!   Have a good weekend!


[https://i.imgur.com/uXcqgyz.png]<http://www.rollsbattery.com>
Steve Higgins ⋅ Technical Services Manager
t +1.902.597.4020  m +1.206.790.5840
f +1.902.597.8447  e st...@surrette.com<mailto:st..

Re: [RE-wrenches] High altitude off-grid systems

[jerrysgarage01]

WrenchesHere is the math, well the answer at sea level your body has 14.70 PSI 
exerted on it, at 10,000 feet you only have 10.163 PSI, reduced air pressure, 
reduced cooling or heating ability adjusted for standard sea level temp or just 
over 69%.I have done work in Hawaii on the big island up at the summit, it can 
be warm and very thin air, without air to cool no inverter will perform very 
well. I have some SMA, FX and Raidians in warm high altitude locations and 
added extra cooling to compensate for the lack of air. You will hear the 
cooling fans spinning faster, moving less air at higher altitudes.SMA sunny 
island does have a 9k plus operating altitude but de-rates at less the 
7k.JerryPV inspector Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone
 Original message From: Jay Pozner  
Date: 4/12/19  10:06 AM  (GMT-08:00) To: RE-wrenches 
 Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] High altitude 
off-grid systems We do a fair amount of systems at "altitude".  Recently we had 
an issue with a Radian system at about 10,000'.  An 8048 inverter screaming 
(fans running hard) with just 2000 watts of load.  I hounded tech support for 
two years, and even after switching power modules, etc in the end the techs 
claim a fairly substantial deration (that I can't quote right now) of inverter 
performance because of cooling issues.  We  ultimately added another inverter 
to the system at the end of last summer.  I hope this season we will see a 
better result.   It makes sense, given the difference in air density, but I do 
scratch my head and wonder why we haven't seen such issues with the older FX's, 
and some of the older legacy systems?I also know that the Midnite classic 
charge controllers seem to run the fans quite hard as well.  I haven't had to 
replace any of the fans, and the controllers are performing great, but wonder 
if that will be an issue in the future.   It would be great if some 
manufactures would give us a quality, competitively priced, equipment that is 
rated for altitude, but I don't think there are that many options out there as 
of now.Jay Pozner(970) 642-5554www.nunatakenergy.comNABCEP Certified PV 
Installer:Cert.#031310-177On Fri, Apr 12, 2019 at 9:17 AM Steve Higgins 
 wrote:Not to add fuel to the fire... and it's been almost 
7 years since I've been with an Inverter manufacturer so here is my .02 
cents...  So again, I hope I'm not overstepping the boundaries of the Wrenches 
list. If I remember correctly the main issue with the high altitude installs 
are some of the components that are used to build the inverter/controllers 
aren't rated to be used at high altitude, one of the main components that have 
this issue is the electrolytic capacitors.    Of course, the specs vary from 
component to component.   I've seen some rated as low as 8000 ft to some as 
rated as high as 30,000 ft.   It really just depends on the part(s) that the 
manufacturer used to build the product. As you gain altitude the temperatures 
and the air pressure decrease, as it was explained to me years ago the problem 
is with the temperature decrease, this will affect the capacitance of the 
capacitor.  The colder temps will reduce the overall capacitance of the 
capacitor, just like it will with a battery. These caps are generally used to 
filter noise from circuits, so when these fail, or the capacitance values fall, 
you don't get the filtering you need and this induces noise into your circuitry 
possibly causing overall failure or worse,  the dreaded intermittent failure.   
Generally, if the inverters/controllers are kept on and warm, you won't have 
too many problems, it's when they are in extremely cold temperatures is when 
you will start having issues.  Hope this helps!   Have a good weekend!   Steve 
Higgins ⋅ Technical Services Manager 
 
 t +1.902.597.4020  m +1.206.790.5840f +1.902.597.8447  e st...@surrette.com 
 
   CONFIDENTIALITY: The information transmitted herein is intended only for the 
addressee and may contain confidential, proprietary and/or privileged material. 
Any unauthorized review, distribution or other use of or the taking of any 
action in reliance upon this information is prohibited. If you receive this 
email in error, please contact the sender and delete or destroy this message 
and all copies.On Fri, Apr 12, 2019 at 7:47 AM  
wrote:Folks: The issue here ulltimately isn’t whether it works or not, it’s if 
it’s WARRANTED.  Some purchasers (in this case the USFS) mandate that all 
equipment be warranted for high altitudes.  And that leaves out several major 
suppliers.  Chris DaumOasis Montana Inc.  From: RE-wrenches 
 On Behalf Of RaySent: Thursday, 
April 11, 2019 10:55 PMTo: re-wrenc...@lists.re-wrenches.orgSubject: Re: 
[RE-wrenches] High altitude off-grid systems We've had some systems at 11,000 
ft plus, for almost 20 years.  We have mixtures of Outback, Midnite, Blue Sky, 
and old Trace equipment.  Never any issues with electronics related to 
altitude.

Re: [RE-wrenches] High altitude off-grid systems

[Jay Pozner]

We do a fair amount of systems at "altitude".  Recently we had an issue
with a Radian system at about 10,000'.  An 8048 inverter screaming (fans
running hard) with just 2000 watts of load.  I hounded tech support for two
years, and even after switching power modules, etc in the end the techs
claim a fairly substantial deration (that I can't quote right now) of
inverter performance because of cooling issues.  We  ultimately added
another inverter to the system at the end of last summer.  I hope this
season we will see a better result.   It makes sense, given the difference
in air density, but I do scratch my head and wonder why we haven't seen
such issues with the older FX's, and some of the older legacy systems?

I also know that the Midnite classic charge controllers seem to run the
fans quite hard as well.  I haven't had to replace any of the fans, and the
controllers are performing great, but wonder if that will be an issue in
the future.   It would be great if some manufactures would give us a
quality, competitively priced, equipment that is rated for altitude, but I
don't think there are that many options out there as of now


.

Jay Pozner
(970) 642-5554
www.nunatakenergy.com
NABCEP Certified PV Installer:
Cert.#031310-177


On Fri, Apr 12, 2019 at 9:17 AM Steve Higgins  wrote:

> Not to add fuel to the fire... and it's been almost 7 years since I've
> been with an Inverter manufacturer so here is my .02 cents...  So again, I
> hope I'm not overstepping the boundaries of the Wrenches list.
>
> If I remember correctly the main issue with the high altitude installs are
> some of the components that are used to build the inverter/controllers
> aren't rated to be used at high altitude, one of the main components that
> have this issue is the electrolytic capacitors.Of course, the specs
> vary from component to component.   I've seen some rated as low as 8000 ft
> to some as rated as high as 30,000 ft.   It really just depends on the
> part(s) that the manufacturer used to build the product.
>
> As you gain altitude the temperatures and the air pressure decrease, as it
> was explained to me years ago the problem is with the temperature decrease,
> this will affect the capacitance of the capacitor.  The colder temps will
> reduce the overall capacitance of the capacitor, just like it will with a
> battery.
>
> These caps are generally used to filter noise from circuits, so when these
> fail, or the capacitance values fall, you don't get the filtering you need
> and this induces noise into your circuitry possibly causing overall failure
> or worse,  the dreaded intermittent failure.   Generally, if the
> inverters/controllers are kept on and warm, you won't have too many
> problems, it's when they are in extremely cold temperatures is when you
> will start having issues.
>
> Hope this helps!   Have a good weekend!
>
>
> <http://www.rollsbattery.com> <http://www.rollsbattery.com>
> <http://www.rollsbattery.com> <http://www.rollsbattery.com>
> <http://www.rollsbattery.com> <http://www.rollsbattery.com>
> <http://www.rollsbattery.com> <http://www.rollsbattery.com>
> <http://www.rollsbattery.com> <http://www.rollsbattery.com>
> <http://www.rollsbattery.com> <http://www.rollsbattery.com>
> <http://www.rollsbattery.com> <http://www.rollsbattery.com>
> <http://www.rollsbattery.com>
> Steve Higgins ⋅ Technical Services Manager
> t +1.902.597.4020  m +1.206.790.5840
> f +1.902.597.8447  e st...@surrette.com
> <#m_-3008849777453347977_SignatureSanitizer_>
> <http://www.facebook.com/RollsBattery>
> <http://www.facebook.com/RollsBattery>
> <http://www.twitter.com/RollsBattery>
> <https://www.youtube.com/user/RollsBattery>
> <https://www.linkedin.com/company/rolls-battery-engineering>
> <http://www.instagram.com/RollsBattery>
> <http://www.instagram.com/RollsBattery>
> <http://www.instagram.com/RollsBattery>
> --
> CONFIDENTIALITY: The information transmitted herein is intended only for
> the addressee and may contain confidential, proprietary and/or privileged
> material. Any unauthorized review, distribution or other use of or the
> taking of any action in reliance upon this information is prohibited. If
> you receive this email in error, please contact the sender and delete or
> destroy this message and all copies.
> --
>
>
> On Fri, Apr 12, 2019 at 7:47 AM  wrote:
>
>> Folks:
>>
>>
>>
>> The issue here ulltimately isn’t whether it works or not, it’s if it’s
>> WARRANTED.  Some purchasers (in this case the USFS) mandate that all
>> equipment be warranted for high altitudes.  And that

Re: [RE-wrenches] High altitude off-grid systems

[Steve Higgins]

Not to add fuel to the fire... and it's been almost 7 years since I've been
with an Inverter manufacturer so here is my .02 cents...  So again, I hope
I'm not overstepping the boundaries of the Wrenches list.

If I remember correctly the main issue with the high altitude installs are
some of the components that are used to build the inverter/controllers
aren't rated to be used at high altitude, one of the main components that
have this issue is the electrolytic capacitors.Of course, the specs
vary from component to component.   I've seen some rated as low as 8000 ft
to some as rated as high as 30,000 ft.   It really just depends on the
part(s) that the manufacturer used to build the product.

As you gain altitude the temperatures and the air pressure decrease, as it
was explained to me years ago the problem is with the temperature decrease,
this will affect the capacitance of the capacitor.  The colder temps will
reduce the overall capacitance of the capacitor, just like it will with a
battery.

These caps are generally used to filter noise from circuits, so when these
fail, or the capacitance values fall, you don't get the filtering you need
and this induces noise into your circuitry possibly causing overall failure
or worse,  the dreaded intermittent failure.   Generally, if the
inverters/controllers are kept on and warm, you won't have too many
problems, it's when they are in extremely cold temperatures is when you
will start having issues.

Hope this helps!   Have a good weekend!


<http://www.rollsbattery.com> <http://www.rollsbattery.com>
<http://www.rollsbattery.com> <http://www.rollsbattery.com>
<http://www.rollsbattery.com> <http://www.rollsbattery.com>
<http://www.rollsbattery.com> <http://www.rollsbattery.com>
<http://www.rollsbattery.com> <http://www.rollsbattery.com>
<http://www.rollsbattery.com> <http://www.rollsbattery.com>
<http://www.rollsbattery.com> <http://www.rollsbattery.com>
<http://www.rollsbattery.com>
Steve Higgins ⋅ Technical Services Manager
t +1.902.597.4020  m +1.206.790.5840
f +1.902.597.8447  e st...@surrette.com
<#SignatureSanitizer_> <http://www.facebook.com/RollsBattery>
<http://www.facebook.com/RollsBattery> <http://www.twitter.com/RollsBattery>
<https://www.youtube.com/user/RollsBattery>
<https://www.linkedin.com/company/rolls-battery-engineering>
<http://www.instagram.com/RollsBattery>
<http://www.instagram.com/RollsBattery>
<http://www.instagram.com/RollsBattery>
--
CONFIDENTIALITY: The information transmitted herein is intended only for
the addressee and may contain confidential, proprietary and/or privileged
material. Any unauthorized review, distribution or other use of or the
taking of any action in reliance upon this information is prohibited. If
you receive this email in error, please contact the sender and delete or
destroy this message and all copies.
--


On Fri, Apr 12, 2019 at 7:47 AM  wrote:

> Folks:
>
>
>
> The issue here ulltimately isn’t whether it works or not, it’s if it’s
> WARRANTED.  Some purchasers (in this case the USFS) mandate that all
> equipment be warranted for high altitudes.  And that leaves out several
> major suppliers.
>
>
>
>
>
> Chris Daum
>
> Oasis Montana Inc.
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* RE-wrenches  *On
> Behalf Of *Ray
> *Sent:* Thursday, April 11, 2019 10:55 PM
> *To:* re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
> *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] High altitude off-grid systems
>
>
>
> We've had some systems at 11,000 ft plus, for almost 20 years.  We have
> mixtures of Outback, Midnite, Blue Sky, and old Trace equipment.  Never any
> issues with electronics related to altitude.  Actually the altitude related
> system issues are generator derating, and array output exceeding STC
> ratings on really clear cold days due to the thin atmosphere.  The third
> issue would be installers not being able to catch our breath after jogging
> back to the truck.
>
> Ray Walters
>
> Remote Solar
>
> 303 505-8760
>
> On 4/11/19 3:39 PM, Dan Fink wrote:
>
> Hi Chris; I am deeply concerned about this as nearly 100% of the systems I
> install are at 8000 ft (2500m) or higher. I've never had a problem with
> warranty claims to Outback or Schneider up to this time. If this is a "new
> thing" I'd really like to know about it, on list or off.
>
>
>
> The alitude de-rate stuff seems to involve dialectric ratings on the
> transformer coils, and low air density for cooling. I think that's all in
> ANSI.
>
>
>
>
> Dan Fink
>
> Director of Solar Education, Greendustrial Training LLC
>
> IREC Certified Instructor™ for:
>
> ~ PV Installation Professional
>
> ~ 

Re: [RE-wrenches] High altitude off-grid systems

[chris]

Folks:
 
The issue here ulltimately isn’t whether it works or not, it’s if it’s 
WARRANTED.  Some purchasers (in this case the USFS) mandate that all equipment 
be warranted for high altitudes.  And that leaves out several major suppliers.
 
 
Chris Daum
Oasis Montana Inc.
 
 
From: RE-wrenches  On Behalf Of Ray
Sent: Thursday, April 11, 2019 10:55 PM
To: re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] High altitude off-grid systems
 
We've had some systems at 11,000 ft plus, for almost 20 years.  We have 
mixtures of Outback, Midnite, Blue Sky, and old Trace equipment.  Never any 
issues with electronics related to altitude.  Actually the altitude related 
system issues are generator derating, and array output exceeding STC ratings on 
really clear cold days due to the thin atmosphere.  The third issue would be 
installers not being able to catch our breath after jogging back to the truck.  
Ray Walters
Remote Solar
303 505-8760
On 4/11/19 3:39 PM, Dan Fink wrote:
Hi Chris; I am deeply concerned about this as nearly 100% of the systems I 
install are at 8000 ft (2500m) or higher. I've never had a problem with 
warranty claims to Outback or Schneider up to this time. If this is a "new 
thing" I'd really like to know about it, on list or off. 
 
The alitude de-rate stuff seems to involve dialectric ratings on the 
transformer coils, and low air density for cooling. I think that's all in ANSI.
 


Dan Fink
Director of Solar Education, Greendustrial Training LLC
IREC Certified Instructor™ for: 
~ PV Installation Professional
~ Small Wind Installer
NABCEP PV Associate
Executive Director, Buckville Energy Consulting
NABCEP Registered Continuing Education Providers
dan.f...@greendustrialtraining.com <mailto:dan.f...@greendustrialtraining.com> 
970-672-4342

 
 
 
On Thu, Apr 11, 2019 at 1:28 PM mailto:ch...@oasismontana.com> > wrote:
Hi folks:
 
I am curious as to how many of you sell/install battery/inverter systems at 
high altitudes?  Have you had any particular issues with them?  Last year we 
discovered (in a mostly costly fashion) that Schneider inverters (and also 
Outback) are not warranted above 6500 ft.  
 
Magnum inverters are warranted to 15,000 ft max altitude.  
 
Best,
 
Chris Daum
Oasis Montana Inc.
406-777-4309 or 4321
406-777-4309 fax
 <http://www.oasismontana.com> www.oasismontana.com 
 
 
___
List sponsored by Redwood Alliance

List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org 
<mailto:RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> 

Change listserver email address & settings:
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List-Archive: 
http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html

List rules & etiquette:
www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm <http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm> 

Check out or update participant bios:
www.members.re-wrenches.org <http://www.members.re-wrenches.org> 



___
List sponsored by Redwood Alliance
 
List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org 
<mailto:RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> 
 
Change listserver email address & settings:
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
 
List-Archive: 
http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html
 
List rules & etiquette:
www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm <http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm> 
 
Check out or update participant bios:
www.members.re-wrenches.org <http://www.members.re-wrenches.org> 
 
___
List sponsored by Redwood Alliance

List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org

Change listserver email address & settings:
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List-Archive: 
http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html

List rules & etiquette:
www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm

Check out or update participant bios:
www.members.re-wrenches.org

Re: [RE-wrenches] High altitude off-grid systems

[Ray]

We've had some systems at 11,000 ft plus, for almost 20 years. We have 
mixtures of Outback, Midnite, Blue Sky, and old Trace equipment.  Never 
any issues with electronics related to altitude.  Actually the altitude 
related system issues are generator derating, and array output exceeding 
STC ratings on really clear cold days due to the thin atmosphere.  The 
third issue would be installers not being able to catch our breath after 
jogging back to the truck.


Ray Walters
Remote Solar
303 505-8760

On 4/11/19 3:39 PM, Dan Fink wrote:
Hi Chris; I am deeply concerned about this as nearly 100% of the 
systems I install are at 8000 ft (2500m) or higher. I've never had a 
problem with warranty claims to Outback or Schneider up to this time. 
If this is a "new thing" I'd really like to know about it, on list or 
off.


The alitude de-rate stuff seems to involve dialectric ratings on the 
transformer coils, and low air density for cooling. I think that's all 
in ANSI.



Dan Fink
Director of Solar Education, Greendustrial Training LLC
IREC Certified Instructor™ for:
~ PV Installation Professional
~ Small Wind Installer
NABCEP PV Associate
Executive Director, Buckville Energy Consulting
NABCEP Registered Continuing Education Providers
dan.f...@greendustrialtraining.com 


970-672-4342



On Thu, Apr 11, 2019 at 1:28 PM > wrote:


Hi folks:

I am curious as to how many of you sell/install battery/inverter
systems at high altitudes?Have you had any particular issues with
them?Last year we discovered (in a mostly costly fashion) that
Schneider inverters (and also Outback) are not warranted above
6500 ft.

Magnum inverters are warranted to 15,000 ft max altitude.

Best,

Chris Daum

Oasis Montana Inc.

406-777-4309 or 4321

406-777-4309 fax

www.oasismontana.com 

___
List sponsored by Redwood Alliance

List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org


Change listserver email address & settings:
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List-Archive:
http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html

List rules & etiquette:
www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm


Check out or update participant bios:
www.members.re-wrenches.org 


___
List sponsored by Redwood Alliance

List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org

Change listserver email address & settings:
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List-Archive: 
http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html

List rules & etiquette:
www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm

Check out or update participant bios:
www.members.re-wrenches.org

___
List sponsored by Redwood Alliance

List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org

Change listserver email address & settings:
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List-Archive: 
http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html

List rules & etiquette:
www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm

Check out or update participant bios:
www.members.re-wrenches.org

Re: [RE-wrenches] High altitude off-grid systems

[Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar]

I just read the XW pro warranty and the environmental usage. There is no
mention of altitude being a limiting factor of warranty. The XWP does
derate power based on heatsink and ambient temperature. I am testing the
beta here and it has been solid. I cc'd Sandra from Schneider and will pass
this on to Engineering. 
Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar
"we go where
powerlines don't"
http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [1]
e-mail
offgridso...@sti.net [2]
text 209 813 0060

On Thu, 11 Apr 2019 10:37:09
-0600,  wrote:   

Hi folks: 

I am curious as to how many of you
sell/install battery/inverter systems at high altitudes? Have you had any
particular issues with them? Last year we discovered (in a mostly costly
fashion) that Schneider inverters (and also Outback) are not warranted
above 6500 ft.  

Magnum inverters are warranted to 15,000 ft max altitude.


Best, 

Chris Daum 

Oasis Montana Inc. 

406-777-4309 or 4321


406-777-4309 fax 

www.oasismontana.com [3]  

-- 




Links:
--
[1] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/
[2]
mailto:offgridso...@sti.net
[3] http://www.oasismontana.com
___
List sponsored by Redwood Alliance

List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org

Change listserver email address & settings:
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List-Archive: 
http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html

List rules & etiquette:
www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm

Check out or update participant bios:
www.members.re-wrenches.org

Re: [RE-wrenches] High altitude off-grid systems

[Dan Fink]

Hi Chris; I am deeply concerned about this as nearly 100% of the systems I
install are at 8000 ft (2500m) or higher. I've never had a problem with
warranty claims to Outback or Schneider up to this time. If this is a "new
thing" I'd really like to know about it, on list or off.

The alitude de-rate stuff seems to involve dialectric ratings on the
transformer coils, and low air density for cooling. I think that's all in
ANSI.


Dan Fink
Director of Solar Education, Greendustrial Training LLC
IREC Certified Instructor™ for:
~ PV Installation Professional
~ Small Wind Installer
NABCEP PV Associate
Executive Director, Buckville Energy Consulting
NABCEP Registered Continuing Education Providers
dan.f...@greendustrialtraining.com
970-672-4342




On Thu, Apr 11, 2019 at 1:28 PM  wrote:

> Hi folks:
>
>
>
> I am curious as to how many of you sell/install battery/inverter systems
> at high altitudes?  Have you had any particular issues with them?  Last
> year we discovered (in a mostly costly fashion) that Schneider inverters
> (and also Outback) are not warranted above 6500 ft.
>
>
>
> Magnum inverters are warranted to 15,000 ft max altitude.
>
>
>
> Best,
>
>
>
> Chris Daum
>
> Oasis Montana Inc.
>
> 406-777-4309 or 4321
>
> 406-777-4309 fax
>
> www.oasismontana.com
>
>
>
>
> ___
> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance
>
> List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
>
> Change listserver email address & settings:
> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
>
> List-Archive:
> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html
>
> List rules & etiquette:
> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm
>
> Check out or update participant bios:
> www.members.re-wrenches.org
>
>
___
List sponsored by Redwood Alliance

List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org

Change listserver email address & settings:
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List-Archive: 
http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html

List rules & etiquette:
www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm

Check out or update participant bios:
www.members.re-wrenches.org

[RE-wrenches] High altitude off-grid systems

[chris]

Hi folks:
 
I am curious as to how many of you sell/install battery/inverter systems at 
high altitudes?  Have you had any particular issues with them?  Last year we 
discovered (in a mostly costly fashion) that Schneider inverters (and also 
Outback) are not warranted above 6500 ft.  
 
Magnum inverters are warranted to 15,000 ft max altitude.  
 
Best,
 
Chris Daum
Oasis Montana Inc.
406-777-4309 or 4321
406-777-4309 fax
  www.oasismontana.com 
 
 
___
List sponsored by Redwood Alliance

List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org

Change listserver email address & settings:
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List-Archive: 
http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html

List rules & etiquette:
www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm

Check out or update participant bios:
www.members.re-wrenches.org