[Repeater-Builder] OT ACSSB - how does it work and is it possible for the hobbyist to scratch build
This problem (generating the 90 degree phase shift audio) is all that is keeping me from an experiment to generate a SSB signal using a little known technique I ran across in an old QST. It seems that a phase modulated FM signal can be combined with amplitude modulation with the audio 90 degree phase shifted and generate a SSB signal. The experiments referenced wound up with a SSB signal with full carrier. My first foray into sideband operation back in the late '50s was with a command transmitter with the grids modified to push pull and applying push pull audio to the screens. This generated a double sideband suppressed carrier signal. I suspect that I could modify a GE Prog transmitter by rewiring the grids of a 60 Watt final to push pull and applying push pull audio to the screens and applying 90 degree phase shifted audio to the normal phase modulation input would generate a SSB suppressed carrier signal. I suspect the pre-emphasis in the phase modulation circuit would have to be defeated, or does a phase modulation scheme automatically generate the pre-emphasis? 73 - Jim W5ZIT --- On Wed, 11/11/09, DCFluX dcf...@gmail.com wrote: From: DCFluX dcf...@gmail.com Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] acssb - how does it work and is it possible for the hobbyist to scratch build To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Date: Wednesday, November 11, 2009, 9:02 PM I was playing with the ideas of making adapters, but it is supprisingly difficult to throw audio exactly 90 degrees out of phase over a broad frequency range.
[Repeater-Builder] ACSSB
One thing to remember. Amatuers are NOT authorized to use ACSSB above 30mhz. Please check part 97 for the exact modes we are able to use. heck if we were there would be tons of ACSSB repeaters already modified into the ham band.
Re: [Repeater-Builder] ACSSB
wonder why the fcc does not allow acssb above 30 mhz on the ham bands? seems to me they would want to promote more efficient modes through all the ham bands. another interesting thing would be to see 2 meter repeaters go to 2 or 3 mhz splits and employ some form of efficient modulation mode instead of the same old 10 khz fm. and i am sure we will be all dead before this happens :) one can imagine though. better tx/rx isolation, cleaner signals, employ some form of narrow band modulation scheme and we could even ease congestion on 2 meters. i still can't imagine how the 600 khz split was decided for 2 meters when there is room for at least a 2 mhz split. i like the idea of injecting the 100 hz tone into a ssb carrier and using it to lock the rit. - Original Message - From: n0fpe n0...@cox.net To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, November 12, 2009 7:34 AM Subject: [Repeater-Builder] ACSSB One thing to remember. Amatuers are NOT authorized to use ACSSB above 30mhz. Please check part 97 for the exact modes we are able to use. heck if we were there would be tons of ACSSB repeaters already modified into the ham band. Yahoo! Groups Links
Re: [Repeater-Builder] PGE Smart Meter Program
I worked on an antenna problem recently on a 900Mhz spread spectrum meter system here in Connecticut. I only spent an afternoon, but the technology is fascinating. Two way communications from selected sites to the meters will eventually be implemented. If the customers meter does not have a direct path to the site it can relay it's data through another meter that it has connectivity to. Kind of like a big mesh network. Every meter is also a repeater. It is eventually going to be a two way network, not just for meter reading. The power company will be able to control the load of devices in the customers home or business location (presumably for a discounted rate) as the power company needs to adjust demand. A good example would be to shut off your electric hot water heater for 5 minutes. This would probably have no direct effect on the customer, but would be a great cost saver for the power company. Using spread spectrum and 900Mhz, the range of this system is amazing. Very few meters are in dead zones. These bad zones only need a meter strategically placed on a high building or power pole to become a repeater. Very impressive system. 73, Joe, K1ike
Re: [Repeater-Builder] PGE Smart Meter Program
may be fascinating technology, but it won't be so fascinating when you are facing a huge electric bill because they jacked your rates up during peak hours. the system fascinates me from a tech standpoint, but where this tech is ultimately heading spells bad news for the consumer and his/her wallet - Original Message - From: Joe k1ike_m...@snet.net To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, November 12, 2009 8:12 AM Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] PGE Smart Meter Program I worked on an antenna problem recently on a 900Mhz spread spectrum meter system here in Connecticut. I only spent an afternoon, but the technology is fascinating. Two way communications from selected sites to the meters will eventually be implemented. If the customers meter does not have a direct path to the site it can relay it's data through another meter that it has connectivity to. Kind of like a big mesh network. Every meter is also a repeater. It is eventually going to be a two way network, not just for meter reading. The power company will be able to control the load of devices in the customers home or business location (presumably for a discounted rate) as the power company needs to adjust demand. A good example would be to shut off your electric hot water heater for 5 minutes. This would probably have no direct effect on the customer, but would be a great cost saver for the power company. Using spread spectrum and 900Mhz, the range of this system is amazing. Very few meters are in dead zones. These bad zones only need a meter strategically placed on a high building or power pole to become a repeater. Very impressive system. 73, Joe, K1ike Yahoo! Groups Links
Re: [Repeater-Builder] PGE Smart Meter Program
This is how business operates. Wait until you start getting charged by the byte for Internet use. It's coming. Already doing this in other countries. Chuck WB2EDV - Original Message - From: Rev. Robert P. Chrysafis kc8...@hotmail.com To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, November 12, 2009 8:26 AM Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] PGE Smart Meter Program may be fascinating technology, but it won't be so fascinating when you are facing a huge electric bill because they jacked your rates up during peak hours. the system fascinates me from a tech standpoint, but where this tech is ultimately heading spells bad news for the consumer and his/her wallet
Re: Re: [Repeater-Builder] PGE Smart Meter Program
//Nov 12, 2009 01:13:07 PM, Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com wrote: // A good example would be to shut off your electric hot //water heater for 5 minutes. This would probably have no direct effect //on the customer, but would be a great cost saver for the power company. Gee, when I worked for the Electric Coop in Virginia back in the early 80s we already had devices on the water heaters that would turn them off during peak times. The timers in the device would allow one at a time to shut off so all don't turn off and then back on at the same time. These were controlled by RF in the 150 mhz region. //Using spread spectrum and 900Mhz, the range of this system is amazing. //Very few meters are in dead zones. These bad zones only need a meter //strategically placed on a high building or power pole to become a //repeater. Very impressive system. I wonder if my 900 mhz Spectra would interfere with them sending the data. LOL /73, Joe, K1ike David
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: Linking Repeaters Remotely
Nate Duehr wrote: Sure wish ham manufacturers would get on the ball on this feature and get it in the ham rigs. It's only been a decade or so now... all of our repeaters do it... the rigs don't know how to decode it, and I refuse to mess with chicken burst. I just use real radios, and it all sounds great! (BIG GRIN...) -- Nate Duehr, WY0X n...@natetech.com FWIW-my wife and I have some newer Kenwoods. Both the G71 and F6 respond to factory Micor r/b and the 7330 r/b properly, as well as most every commercial system that has it too. The G707 responds to the Micor and 7330, but doesn't always do some of the others. The somewhat older 742 doesn't like any of them. But believe it or not, the old TK-801 repsonds to the 7330 at 180 degrees, but I haven't heard it work with anything else, even the factory Micor... WD8CHL
RE: [Repeater-Builder] PGE Smart Meter Program
The technology for this I believe is called Zigbee-you can find a lot of info on the web-systems will operate on 900 (US only), 2.4 and 5.8 GHz now, other uses include full house control of lights, heating etc, each light switch in a home is also a repeater and it will be used in many new big office buildings where instead of running wires from lights to switches the lights will be direct wired with a zigbee node and the switches will control the lights, on-off, bright-dim using Zigbee-it is a low cost and very useful technology and we will be seeing a lot more of it. Andy From: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com [mailto:repeater-buil...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Joe Sent: Thursday, November 12, 2009 5:13 AM To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] PGE Smart Meter Program I worked on an antenna problem recently on a 900Mhz spread spectrum meter system here in Connecticut. I only spent an afternoon, but the technology is fascinating. Two way communications from selected sites to the meters will eventually be implemented. If the customers meter does not have a direct path to the site it can relay it's data through another meter that it has connectivity to. Kind of like a big mesh network. Every meter is also a repeater. It is eventually going to be a two way network, not just for meter reading. The power company will be able to control the load of devices in the customers home or business location (presumably for a discounted rate) as the power company needs to adjust demand. A good example would be to shut off your electric hot water heater for 5 minutes. This would probably have no direct effect on the customer, but would be a great cost saver for the power company. Using spread spectrum and 900Mhz, the range of this system is amazing. Very few meters are in dead zones. These bad zones only need a meter strategically placed on a high building or power pole to become a repeater. Very impressive system. 73, Joe, K1ike
Re: [Repeater-Builder] ACSSB
Rev. Robert P. Chrysafis wrote: wonder why the fcc does not allow acssb above 30 mhz on the ham bands? seems to me they would want to promote more efficient modes through all the ham bands. another interesting thing would be to see 2 meter repeaters go to 2 or 3 mhz splits and employ some form of efficient modulation mode instead of the same old 10 khz fm. and i am sure we will be all dead before this happens :) one can imagine though. better tx/rx isolation, cleaner signals, employ some form of narrow band modulation scheme and we could even ease congestion on 2 meters. i still can't imagine how the 600 khz split was decided for 2 meters when there is room for at least a 2 mhz split. duh-because when repeaters were first authorized for 2M, they were only allowed from 146 to 148. 144.5-145.5 didn't come into existence until the 80's. No-2M is too populated to do any changes. Not gonna happen until they just flat stop making FM gear. Not in my life time, not in your kids lifetimes, probably not in your grandkids lifetimes either. Same with the 150-174 LMR band...WAY to much gear out there to try to standardize input/output. Look at the bright side-at least the ham band HAS a standard. There is none in the LMR segment.
Re: [Repeater-Builder] PGE Smart Meter Program
Andrew Seybold wrote: The technology for this I believe is called Zigbee-you can find a lot of info on the web-systems will operate on 900 (US only), 2.4 and 5.8 GHz now, other uses include full house control of lights, heating etc, each light switch in a home is also a repeater and it will be used in many new big office buildings where instead of running wires from lights to switches the lights will be direct wired with a zigbee node and the switches will control the lights, on-off, bright-dim using Zigbee-it is a low cost and very useful technology and we will be seeing a lot more of it. Andy This is crap to me. Talk about 'Big Brother'! They're gonna need machine guns to implement it!
Re: [Repeater-Builder] ACSSB
n0fpe wrote: One thing to remember. Amatuers are NOT authorized to use ACSSB above 30mhz. Please check part 97 for the exact modes we are able to use. heck if we were there would be tons of ACSSB repeaters already modified into the ham band. I don't believe that comment on legality. But no, the reason there isn't bunch of those on the ham bands is that many people have tried with no success. The firmware in those doesn't allow out-of-band, and so far no one has had luck hacking it. And there isn't much value in doing it anyway. As Doug said, it didn't work very well, so why try?
Re: [Repeater-Builder] PGE Smart Meter Program
Again, that's typical of any business. Gasoline stations have lots of competition, yet look at the prices and how they fix pricing in any given area. Cable has competition from FIOS and from Dish. Same thing - they price the same as the other guy. Chuck WB2EDV - Original Message - From: Rev. Robert P. Chrysafis kc8...@hotmail.com To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, November 12, 2009 11:31 AM Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] PGE Smart Meter Program oh and lets not forget the real reason they get away with what they do. Cable, telco, and Utilities Are granted their own monopplies in their area. no competition means they can do what ever they like to you and you have no real recourse.
Re: [Repeater-Builder] PGE Smart Meter Program
oh and lets not forget the real reason they get away with what they do. Cable, telco, and Utilities Are granted their own monopplies in their area. no competition means they can do what ever they like to you and you have no real recourse. - Original Message - From: Rev. Robert P. Chrysafis kc8...@hotmail.com To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, November 12, 2009 11:25 AM Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] PGE Smart Meter Program This is how business operates. Wait until you start getting charged by the byte for Internet use. It's coming. Already doing this in other countries. when this happens i will be dropping internet service due to being on a fixed income. i will not be able to afford a huge unexpected bill which is why i do not own a cell phone. and do not have a prepaid because they charge a premium for using prepaid. guess i will be getting internet from my local library for email. as for electric if i owned this place i would have gone solar and wind along time ago. right now the elctric is easy to predict when we have peak billing it will be impossible for the average person to predict when peak hours are as these will constantly be changing based on overall usage in the area. Yahoo! Groups Links
Re: [Repeater-Builder] PGE Smart Meter Program
This is how business operates. Wait until you start getting charged by the byte for Internet use. It's coming. Already doing this in other countries. when this happens i will be dropping internet service due to being on a fixed income. i will not be able to afford a huge unexpected bill which is why i do not own a cell phone. and do not have a prepaid because they charge a premium for using prepaid. guess i will be getting internet from my local library for email. as for electric if i owned this place i would have gone solar and wind along time ago. right now the elctric is easy to predict when we have peak billing it will be impossible for the average person to predict when peak hours are as these will constantly be changing based on overall usage in the area.
[Repeater-Builder] Re: acssb - how does it work and is it possible for the hobbyist to scratch build
In addition to the below info (thank you Doug)... ACSB is pretty much considered an AM Modulation byproduct. The noise in/from the vehicle ignition system alone would hose up some installations. The low ERP from the repeater site was part of the train wreck. The high cost of user equipment alone... forget the site costs and single source equipment. And there were at least two different ACSB standards, quite different from each other. It's right up there with Broadcast IBOC (Digital on-channel Broadcast Radio) as one of the worst possible kluges. s. Doug Bade k...@... wrote: The demise of ACSSB in our area was the overall range was limited to poor sensitivity relative to a similarly situated uhf repeater.. Typical sensitivity of the mobiles was .4-.5~.6uv or so compared to sub .2uv on uhf and vhf fm mobiles that were readily available.. Sound quality did not help ... The noise floor is higher at 220 in many areas in the cities... compared to uhf basically our UHF systems killed 220 acssb once we could start trunking efficiently with LTR... there was no competition between the 2 as UHF engineered well was superior... It was not possible to improve the sensitivity of the front end due to the design of the hardware and systems typically could hear farther than they could talk... so mobiles lost the site first... Typically most systems were SEA that were actually getting loading... and those system cost a lot more for 100w amps than the stock 20w SO most systems were deployed with 20w transmitters at the site.. talking to 20w mobiles.. the site had a preamp on rx the combiners chewed up TX power ... lowering outbound ERP... Downlink power was always less than uplink. In FM 100w PA's are no issue to add at will to a 20w repeater.. boosting the output of an ACSSB transmitter required a complex amp with a feedback loop controlling gain $ not a $800.00 vocom or eq like on FM... We only owned one and never deployed it... it double the cost of each repeater... Performance was sub par for about any other radio operation including 800 mhzand probably 900 Doug KD8B At 03:46 PM 11/11/2009, you wrote: basically as the title states. i have never heard of acssb outside of 220-222 mhz. seems to me acssb was a good idea and was curious as to why the ham community has not picked up on it for mobile HF SSB use. seems to me having the benefits of SSB without the hassle of messing with a clarifier all the time has it's advantages in a mobile environment. also it seems running a AOR ARD9000 type device over ACSSB would be a really great advantage. i have zero experience with either of these modes so i am not sure how this idea would turn out. i know that the likely reason is NBFM and P25 for the demise of ACSSB, but as stated above seems to me it would be at home in the HF spectrum. I know i am going to get flamed for this, but i think ACSSB would make a great replacement for standard ssb in the 11 meter market. it would also allow the use of CTCSS on HF using a more efficient mode then FM. imagine haveing ACSSB 10 meter repeaters instead of FM.
[Repeater-Builder] Re: ACSB (aka ACSSB) Modulation Radios
basically as the title states. i have never heard of ACSSB outside of 220-222 mhz. There was quite a bit of hype about it in the 80's and 90's, I recall seeing mention of it in various Handbooks and Magazines. Seems to me ACSSB was a good idea and was curious as to why the ham community has not picked up on it for mobile HF SSB use. Simple Cost of the radio and what mfgr is going to stick their necks out trying to make a dollar on an unknown format when known modulation schemes are already on the scene. In short, how practical is it? There might be a case to include it as one of a selection of available modes in newer software defined radios... but don't look for it anytime soon. seems to me having the benefits of SSB without the hassle of messing with a Clarifier all the time has it's advantages in a mobile environment. It might... but Hams and CB'ers don't mind cranking the knobs. If you wanted hands off operation, FM is there and much more practical.... translation cheap to buy and use. i know that the likely reason is NBFM and P25 for the demise of ACSSB, but as stated above seems to me it would be at home in the HF spectrum. It's not hard to insert and detect the carrier in HF operation... but most of the newer HF Rigs have great frequency stability so once you adjust your RIT knob... you shouldn't have to go back. I know i am going to get flamed for this, but i think ACSSB would make a great replacement for standard ssb in the 11 Meter Market. Too many radios already out there over a very long time span so you're not going to see any major changes on 11 Meters and it will remain a train-wreck for the most part. Rural Areas are not so bad when band conditions are favorable. it would also allow the use of CTCSS on HF using a more efficient mode than FM. imagine having ACSSB 10 meter repeaters instead of FM. In real world application... doesn't work so well. Again ACSB is another variant of AM and horribly suffers from noise issues, which is one of the major reasons the 220/222 MHz trunking farted and went away. RIP Securicor, Intek, LMS (Linear Modulation Systems), SEA - ACSB and Uniden ACSB. cheers, s.
Re: [Repeater-Builder] HT750 updating firmware.
u might need a labsoftware wich is able to reload the firmware without a confirmation. but save the tunerplug before u update the radio - Original Message - From: Eric Vincent To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, November 12, 2009 8:11 AM Subject: [Repeater-Builder] HT750 updating firmware. Hello, I've try yesterday to update the firmware on my Motorola HT750 and right now my radio is dead. The original version was R05.09.11 and the wrong one was R05.14.03 Maybe someone in the group have hint for me? Thank you. Eric VE2VXT /VE7
RE: [Repeater-Builder] HT750 updating firmware.
Eric, You'd be surprised how often a radio gets bricked during a firmware upgrade. The primary causes are impatience, where the technician disconnects the cables prematurely because he thinks the operation is complete, and the use of incorrect cables or flashing adapters. A radio or laptop battery that dies at the worst possible moment can also be a problem. Since you appear to be savvy about the long wait between the first and second beep signals, I wonder if you might have used the wrong firmware upgrade package. There are two: Professional Series Portable Firmware R05.14.03 - Four Line Display Radios and Professional Series Portable Firmware R05.14.03 - Non Four Line Display Radios The Non Four Line firmware is for HT750 and HT1250 radios only. The Four Line firmware is for HT1550 radios. Loading the four-line firmware into an HT750 will brick it. Assuming you have the proper cables and adapters for firmware flashing, I suggest trying to load the correct firmware to see if the radio can be recovered. Otherwise, it's a $275 repair at the depot. Be aware that once the radio is flashed to firmware version R05.14.03, you should use HVN9025W CPS (R06.11.05) or later to program the radio. 73, Eric Lemmon WB6FLY -Original Message- From: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com [mailto:repeater-buil...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Eric Vincent Sent: Wednesday, November 11, 2009 11:11 PM To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Subject: [Repeater-Builder] HT750 updating firmware. Hello, I've try yesterday to update the firmware on my Motorola HT750 and right now my radio is dead. The original version was R05.09.11 and the wrong one was R05.14.03 Maybe someone in the group have hint for me? Thank you. Eric VE2VXT /VE7
Re: [Repeater-Builder] PGE Smart Meter Program
On Thu, 12 Nov 2009, Chuck Kelsey wrote: This is how business operates. Wait until you start getting charged by the byte for Internet use. It's coming. Already doing this in other countries. We've already been there. -- Kris Kirby, KE4AHR Disinformation Analyst
Re: [Repeater-Builder] PGE Smart Meter Program
We've already been there. i rember this in the early 90's. which is why i did not have internet back then either. my first exposure was in the mid 90's when the local library started offering free internet access. then was on dial up till a few years ago. i have hung onto my v.92 modems just in case i need to go back to dial up due to rising costs. i would think that if they go to a per byte pricing scheme that this would not apply to dial up because of the dismal bandwidths involved in dial up. they have been pushing for per byte pricing becuase of prodding from behind the scenes by the RIAA, MPAA, BSA and similar organizations that want to curb p2p. which really won't help them. people will just start going old school and having hard drive swapping parties similar to the old tape swapping parties of the 80's. who knows. there is some much greed and people on power trips now a days that i beleive we are destined to repeat the history of other great societies.
Re: [Repeater-Builder] PGE Smart Meter Program
I don't see anything particularly revolutionary about a mesh/node data network. That's been going on for years and years... (Trying to keep this on-topic...) By the way, there's some math formulas done back in the 70s and 80s that show the maximum throughput rates of networks like this, and it'll suffer from things like the hidden node syndrome that Hams found with AX.25/Packet in the 80s and wireline engineers discovered during the design/engineering phases of Token Ring, Ethernet, etc. Random number generators tied to back off timers can only do so much... then the cloud falls apart. (The only difference between those protocols in some sense, and the protocols going over the air in the new systems, is that the wire, or medium for transport, injects a HECK of a lot more noise, and must be better error-corrected, if you think about it using the OSI data networking model... Layer 1 becomes the RF module of the design...) One stuck transmitter in a mesh like this (even with Spread Spectrum, there's only so many channels...)... will also take out/jam everything in its coverage area. (You didn't say if it's FHSS or some other sort of Spread Spectrum technology... I'd be curious as to what they're using if you know!) Like I said, plenty of RF jobs coming for people who can think like an RF geek, but apply principals of data networks to that thought too... :-) DF'ing might even become a re-gained art form, trying to find a one in a million transmitter that's gone spurious in that network! -- Nate Duehr, WY0X n...@natetech.com On Thu, 12 Nov 2009 08:12 -0500, Joe k1ike_m...@snet.net wrote: I worked on an antenna problem recently on a 900Mhz spread spectrum meter system here in Connecticut. I only spent an afternoon, but the technology is fascinating. Two way communications from selected sites to the meters will eventually be implemented. If the customers meter does not have a direct path to the site it can relay it's data through another meter that it has connectivity to. Kind of like a big mesh network. Every meter is also a repeater.
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: Linking Repeaters Remotely
FWIW-my wife and I have some newer Kenwoods. Both the G71 and F6 respond to factory Micor r/b and the 7330 r/b properly, as well as most every commercial system that has it too. The G707 responds to the Micor and 7330, but doesn't always do some of the others. The somewhat older 742 doesn't like any of them. But believe it or not, the old TK-801 repsonds to the 7330 at 180 degrees, but I haven't heard it work with anything else, even the factory Micor... WD8CHL Hmm... My Kenwood TH-F6A (I assume that's what you mean by F6) does NOT respond to RB from anything I've tried. How old is yours? (Perhaps a change?) You sure the repeater you're listening to doesn't drop the CTCSS prior to TX drop? Granted most of the local systems are GE STE, not Moto RB... so I have to go out of my way to find a Motorola repeater to test things against... :-) -- Nate Duehr, WY0X n...@natetech.com
RE: [Repeater-Builder] PGE Smart Meter Program
Ahh yeah, LOTS of people using those chipsets on the microcontroller and other electronics mailing lists... lots of people asking questions like How do I make an antenna as they're going through the design process of laying out the board, and other folks asking, What FCC requirements do I have to meet? Making a few of the RF engineers on those types of mailing lists look like utter geniuses... which is funny to watch. :-) It's EXCEEDINGLY low-cost. There's a great many experimenters using Zigbee modules for all sorts of homebrew things. -- Nate Duehr n...@natetech.com On Thu, 12 Nov 2009 07:05 -0800, Andrew Seybold aseyb...@andrewseybold.com wrote: The technology for this I believe is called Zigbee—you can find a lot of info on the web—systems will operate on 900 (US only), 2.4 and 5.8 GHz now, other uses include full house control of lights, heating etc, each light switch in a home is also a repeater and it will be used in many new big office buildings where instead of running wires from lights to switches the lights will be direct wired with a zigbee node and the switches will control the lights, on-off, bright-dim using Zigbee—it is a low cost and very useful technology and we will be seeing a lot more of it. Andy From: repeater-buil...@yahoogroups. com [mailto:repeater-buil...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Joe Sent: Thursday, November 12, 2009 5:13 AM To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] PGE Smart Meter Program I worked on an antenna problem recently on a 900Mhz spread spectrum meter system here in Connecticut. I only spent an afternoon, but the technology is fascinating. Two way communications from selected sites to the meters will eventually be implemented. If the customers meter does not have a direct path to the site it can relay it's data through another meter that it has connectivity to. Kind of like a big mesh network. Every meter is also a repeater. It is eventually going to be a two way network, not just for meter reading. The power company will be able to control the load of devices in the customers home or business location (presumably for a discounted rate) as the power company needs to adjust demand. A good example would be to shut off your electric hot water heater for 5 minutes. This would probably have no direct effect on the customer, but would be a great cost saver for the power company. Using spread spectrum and 900Mhz, the range of this system is amazing. Very few meters are in dead zones. These bad zones only need a meter strategically placed on a high building or power pole to become a repeater. Very impressive system. 73, Joe, K1ike References 1. mailto:aseyb...@andrewseybold.com?subject=re:%20[Repeater-Builder]%20PGE%20Smart%20Meter%20Program 2. mailto:repeater-buil...@yahoogroups.com?subject=re:%20[Repeater-Builder]%20PGE%20Smart%20Meter%20Program 3. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Repeater-Builder/message/95578;_ylc=X3oDMTM1dnE0bmpoBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzEwNDE2OARncnBzcElkAzE3MDUwNjMxMDgEbXNnSWQDOTU2MDYEc2VjA2Z0cgRzbGsDdnRwYwRzdGltZQMxMjU4MDM4MzUwBHRwY0lkAzk1NTc4 4. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Repeater-Builder/members;_ylc=X3oDMTJlOGs0b2Q2BF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzEwNDE2OARncnBzcElkAzE3MDUwNjMxMDgEc2VjA3Z0bARzbGsDdm1icnMEc3RpbWUDMTI1ODAzODM1MA--?o=6 5. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Repeater-Builder/files;_ylc=X3oDMTJmYmZwNTg4BF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzEwNDE2OARncnBzcElkAzE3MDUwNjMxMDgEc2VjA3Z0bARzbGsDdmZpbGVzBHN0aW1lAzEyNTgwMzgzNTA- 6. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Repeater-Builder;_ylc=X3oDMTJkMm5mMmxlBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzEwNDE2OARncnBzcElkAzE3MDUwNjMxMDgEc2VjA3Z0bARzbGsDdmdocARzdGltZQMxMjU4MDM4MzUw 7. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Repeater-Builder/post;_ylc=X3oDMTJkNWlqbGJzBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzEwNDE2OARncnBzcElkAzE3MDUwNjMxMDgEc2VjA2Z0cgRzbGsDbnRwYwRzdGltZQMxMjU4MDM4MzUw 8. http://us.ard.yahoo.com/SIG=14ki0kkms/M=493064.12016295.13793596.10835568/D=groups/S=1705063108:MKP1/Y=YAHOO/EXP=1258045550/L=/B=u3frOkPDhEI-/J=1258038350214640/K=6OyI5yxsHPKlH69r.16ojQ/A=5898841/R=0/SIG=11kkq36go/*http://advision.webevents.yahoo.com/parentingzone/ 9. http://groups.yahoo.com/;_ylc=X3oDMTJjajF0YW1nBF9TAzk3NDc2NTkwBGdycElkAzEwNDE2OARncnBzcElkAzE3MDUwNjMxMDgEc2VjA2Z0cgRzbGsDZ2ZwBHN0aW1lAzEyNTgwMzgzNTA- 10. mailto:repeater-builder-traditio...@yahoogroups.com?subject=change%20delivery%20format:%20Traditional 11. mailto:repeater-builder-dig...@yahoogroups.com?subject=email%20delivery:%20Digest 12. mailto:repeater-builder-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com?subject=unsubscribe 13. http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: ACSB (aka ACSSB) Modulation Radios
One comment missing from the ACSSB comment thread is that ACSSB repeaters fill a niche that's just not needed... If you want to do SSB on 2m/70cm, it's easy/cheap these days, and built into tons of rigs... generally it outperforms FM repeaters by quite a large margin across the size of most Metropolitan areas, if you just want to talk to your usual buddies/crowd. (Hey, the June VHF QSO Party contest scores are up at ARRL, by the way...!) -- Nate Duehr, WY0X n...@natetech.com
Re: [Repeater-Builder] ACSSB
I find nothing in Part 97 which would preclude ACSSB, as it appears to meet the definition of phone, but I do recall some debate at the time on whether the audio frequency inversion scheme/pilot tone was a form of scrambling/encryption, which would have made it illegal on the ham bands. The main benefit of that inversion was to preserve low-frequency audio response which normally is tough with a filter-based SSB exciter, and put the pilot tone at a frequency where it was easily processed and filtered, but hams are accustomed to narrow audio bandwidths and ducks talking, and there was no compelling reason to play with ACSSB. To some extent, ACSSB was simply the worst of all worlds, like NBFM with more ignition noise and companding artifacts, or SSB but restricted to channels. It made sense on paper as an analog bandwidth conservation tool compared to NBFM, but sounded really bad in areas of marginal signal, and who's still developing analog techniques these days? One reason for lack of interest in the mode I haven't seen mentioned was the incredible hostility generated among hams by the taking of 40% of the 220 MHz band to make commercial ACSSB happen. Just the mention of ACSSB at a club meeting would result in spontaneous aneurisms, even among hams who'd never operated on 220. Nobody wanted to be associated with ACSSB. We were too busy boycotting UPS! 73, Paul, AE4KR - Original Message - From: n0fpe To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, November 12, 2009 5:34 AM Subject: [Repeater-Builder] ACSSB One thing to remember. Amatuers are NOT authorized to use ACSSB above 30mhz. Please check part 97 for the exact modes we are able to use. heck if we were there would be tons of ACSSB repeaters already modified into the ham band.
Re: [Repeater-Builder] ACSSB
On Thursday 12 November 2009 07:34:08 n0fpe wrote: One thing to remember. Amatuers are NOT authorized to use ACSSB above 30mhz. Please check part 97 for the exact modes we are able to use. heck if we were there would be tons of ACSSB repeaters already modified into the ham band. No, thats not true. There are ARRL publications on acssb; at one point it was seen as a complement to FM repeaters, being able to fit inbetween the 20KHz spaced channels of repeaters. I'm not sure that was ever workable, but there was some effort (by amrad?) to disperse acssb equipment on 2m and maybe higher bands. --STeve Andre' wb8wsf en82
[Repeater-Builder] Re: PGE Smart Meter Program
--- In Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com, Rev. Robert P. Chrysafis kc8...@... wrote: which really won't help them. people will just start going old school and having hard drive swapping parties similar to the old tape swapping parties of the 80's. who knows. there is some much greed and people on power trips now a days that i beleive we are destined to repeat the history of other great societies. Sounds like the good old BBS might make a comeback after all... ;) Long live TriBBS..
RE: [Repeater-Builder] Re: PGE Smart Meter Program
TriBBS was my choice for my BBS. The Inner Sanctum I even left it up via telnet for sometime after the internet gobbled up my users. =] Chris Kb0wlf -Original Message- From: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Repeater- buil...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of kc7stw Sent: Thursday, November 12, 2009 2:39 PM To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Subject: [Repeater-Builder] Re: PGE Smart Meter Program --- In Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com, Rev. Robert P. Chrysafis kc8...@... wrote: which really won't help them. people will just start going old school and having hard drive swapping parties similar to the old tape swapping parties of the 80's. who knows. there is some much greed and people on power trips now a days that i beleive we are destined to repeat the history of other great societies. Sounds like the good old BBS might make a comeback after all... ;) Long live TriBBS.. Yahoo! Groups Links No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.5.425 / Virus Database: 270.14.61/2498 - Release Date: 11/12/09 07:38:00
Re: [Repeater-Builder] OT ACSSB - how does it work and is it possible for the hobbyist to scratch build
Have a look at http://www.kangaus.com/kk7b.htm At 01:50 11/12/2009 -0800, you wrote: This problem (generating the 90 degree phase shift audio) is all that is keeping me from an experiment to generate a SSB signal using a little known technique I ran across in an old QST. It seems that a phase modulated FM signal can be combined with amplitude modulation with the audio 90 degree phase shifted and generate a SSB signal. The experiments referenced wound up with a SSB signal with full carrier. My first foray into sideband operation back in the late '50s was with a command transmitter with the grids modified to push pull and applying push pull audio to the screens. This generated a double sideband suppressed carrier signal. I suspect that I could modify a GE Prog transmitter by rewiring the grids of a 60 Watt final to push pull and applying push pull audio to the screens and applying 90 degree phase shifted audio to the normal phase modulation input would generate a SSB suppressed carrier signal. I suspect the pre-emphasis in the phase modulation circuit would have to be defeated, or does a phase modulation scheme automatically generate the pre-emphasis? 73 - Jim W5ZIT --- On Wed, 11/11/09, DCFluX dcf...@gmail.com wrote: From: DCFluX dcf...@gmail.com Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] acssb - how does it work and is it possible for the hobbyist to scratch build To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Date: Wednesday, November 11, 2009, 9:02 PM I was playing with the ideas of making adapters, but it is supprisingly difficult to throw audio exactly 90 degrees out of phase over a broad frequency range.
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: PGE Smart Meter Program
I ran fido and others google u.s.s alliance bs brampton 1st started on the old apple ][ + then ibm then telent umm good ol days On Thu, Nov 12, 2009 at 5:04 PM, Chris Curtis demo...@rollanet.org wrote: TriBBS was my choice for my BBS. The Inner Sanctum I even left it up via telnet for sometime after the internet gobbled up my users. =] Chris Kb0wlf -Original Message- From: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.comRepeater-Builder%40yahoogroups.com[mailto: Repeater- buil...@yahoogroups.com Builder%40yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of kc7stw Sent: Thursday, November 12, 2009 2:39 PM To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.comRepeater-Builder%40yahoogroups.com Subject: [Repeater-Builder] Re: PGE Smart Meter Program --- In Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.comRepeater-Builder%40yahoogroups.com, Rev. Robert P. Chrysafis kc8...@... wrote: which really won't help them. people will just start going old school and having hard drive swapping parties similar to the old tape swapping parties of the 80's. who knows. there is some much greed and people on power trips now a days that i beleive we are destined to repeat the history of other great societies. Sounds like the good old BBS might make a comeback after all... ;) Long live TriBBS.. Yahoo! Groups Links No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.5.425 / Virus Database: 270.14.61/2498 - Release Date: 11/12/09 07:38:00
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: PGE Smart Meter Program
At 04:44 PM 11/12/2009, you wrote: I ran fido and others I ran Mark Woltz' Spitfire - Enchanted Forest BBS I was a beta tester for Spitfire, as well as for the Dual Standard modems Used to run a 10-CD files area Larry Wagoner - N5WLW VP - PRCARC PIC - MS SECT ARRL
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: PGE Smart Meter Program
At 04:49 PM 11/12/2009, you wrote: I ran Mark Woltz' Spitfire - Enchanted Forest BBS I was a beta tester for Spitfire, as well as for the Dual Standard modems Used to run a 10-CD files area Make that Mike Woltz ... Memory is failing ... Larry Wagoner - N5WLW VP - PRCARC PIC - MS SECT ARRL
Re: [Repeater-Builder] PGE Smart Meter Program
Nate Duehr wrote: I don't see anything particularly revolutionary about a mesh/node data network. That's been going on for years and years... I never used the word revolutionary. All I did was describe the way the network operates and remarked how well it worked. Joe
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: Linking Repeaters Remotely
At 11/12/2009 06:41, you wrote: FWIW-my wife and I have some newer Kenwoods. Both the G71 and F6 respond to factory Micor r/b and the 7330 r/b properly, as well as most every commercial system that has it too. The G707 responds to the Micor and 7330, but doesn't always do some of the others. The somewhat older 742 doesn't like any of them. But believe it or not, the old TK-801 repsonds to the 7330 at 180 degrees, but I haven't heard it work with anything else, even the factory Micor... WD8CHL The TK-805D's decoder works with the Mastr II's CG reverse burst. Bob NO6B
RE: [Repeater-Builder] PGE Smart Meter Program
At 11/12/2009 07:05, you wrote: The technology for this I believe is called Zigbee you can find a lot of info on the web systems will operate on 900 (US only), 2.4 and 5.8 GHz now, other uses include full house control of lights, heating etc, each light switch in a home is also a repeater and it will be used in many new big office buildings where instead of running wires from lights to switches the lights will be direct wired with a zigbee node and the switches will control the lights, on-off, bright-dim using Zigbee it is a low cost and very useful technology and we will be seeing a lot more of it. Heh, I can see it now: hackers spelling out messages on the faces of buildings by hacking into the lighting controls. Bob NO6B
Re: [Repeater-Builder] ACSSB
At 11/12/2009 07:47, you wrote: n0fpe wrote: One thing to remember. Amatuers are NOT authorized to use ACSSB above 30mhz. Please check part 97 for the exact modes we are able to use. heck if we were there would be tons of ACSSB repeaters already modified into the ham band. I don't believe that comment on legality. Neither do I. IIRC ACSSB is nothing more than SSB with companding a pilot tone. The latter doesn't make the former a totally different mode. Bob NO6B
RE: [Repeater-Builder] Re: PGE Smart Meter Program
Some of you panic merchants are amusing ( mostly unsubstantiated wild claims) , locally the wireless readings thing was tried and mostly failed due to so many objections on bad readings so we get regular physical readings Unless there has been a major improvement I would expect the same in your part of the woods , one thing we have seen is a govco funded purchase of small solar units which made a decent hole in power company profits keeping prices down although currently there is a lot of competition with at one knock a month from some start up suggesting they can do it cheaper We all have to remember there is always an alternative ( our new place is wind/solar and sells power back into the grid so its certainly achievable ) To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com From: demo...@rollanet.org Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2009 16:04:32 -0600 Subject: RE: [Repeater-Builder] Re: PGE Smart Meter Program TriBBS was my choice for my BBS. The Inner Sanctum I even left it up via telnet for sometime after the internet gobbled up my users. =] Chris Kb0wlf -Original Message- From: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Repeater- buil...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of kc7stw Sent: Thursday, November 12, 2009 2:39 PM To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Subject: [Repeater-Builder] Re: PGE Smart Meter Program --- In Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com, Rev. Robert P. Chrysafis kc8...@... wrote: which really won't help them. people will just start going old school and having hard drive swapping parties similar to the old tape swapping parties of the 80's. who knows. there is some much greed and people on power trips now a days that i beleive we are destined to repeat the history of other great societies. Sounds like the good old BBS might make a comeback after all... ;) Long live TriBBS.. Yahoo! Groups Links No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.5.425 / Virus Database: 270.14.61/2498 - Release Date: 11/12/09 07:38:00 _ Need a place to rent, buy or share? Let us find your next place for you! http://clk.atdmt.com/NMN/go/157631292/direct/01/
Re: [Repeater-Builder] ACSSB
Could you please provide a rule number to back this up? Linear Modulation and ACSSB share 4K00J3E as the emission designator. On Thu, Nov 12, 2009 at 5:34 AM, n0fpe n0...@cox.net wrote: One thing to remember. Amatuers are NOT authorized to use ACSSB above 30mhz. Please check part 97 for the exact modes we are able to use. heck if we were there would be tons of ACSSB repeaters already modified into the ham band.
