Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: Switching Power Supply vs. Astron Etc.
At 10:12 AM 1/16/2007, you wrote: > and if you're stuck paying really high "rack-space rent" >inside some of those almost empty commercial repeater sites... > >It's prudent to think how "size does matter". > >Don't get me wrong... I respect and like the Motorhead (motorola) >and GE Ferroresonant type supplies. It takes nearly an act of god >to kill one... I also understand the typical MSR-2000 power supply >costs about $15 to $25 min each per month to space heat the cabinet >and call out for field mice to sleep on (and pee up). Where and >when I'm not paying the bill... heck plug 25 of them in just to >keep the room warm and run cabinet fans all day long.
[Repeater-Builder] Re: Switching Power Supply vs. Astron Etc.
and if you're stuck paying really high "rack-space rent" inside some of those almost empty commercial repeater sites... It's prudent to think how "size does matter". Don't get me wrong... I respect and like the Motorhead (motorola) and GE Ferroresonant type supplies. It takes nearly an act of god to kill one... I also understand the typical MSR-2000 power supply costs about $15 to $25 min each per month to space heat the cabinet and call out for field mice to sleep on (and pee up). Where and when I'm not paying the bill... heck plug 25 of them in just to keep the room warm and run cabinet fans all day long. cheers, s. > >Having them all hanging off a single supply is a bummer for failure > >modes, but I can see it being pretty easy to get to where you'd > want to have 100A supply in a single cabinet. > > 100 watts, VHF = 110 watts. Mastr Exec II link radio = 20 watts. > > I use individual supplies for each radio (yes, the Mastr II's use > the ferro-resonant supplies). The Exec runs an Astron 25 amp one, > which also powers the controller. > > Welcome to the Department of Redundancy Department! > > Ken
[Repeater-Builder] Re: Switching Power Supply vs. Astron Etc.
> I understand that the voltage can fluctuate widely when the > utility switches on and out various circuits to meet demand. Relatively minor voltage changes with modest loading are not the big issue. Power grid/line glitch problems are a host of very bad gremlins often labeled as (but not being limited to be called) spikes. These glitch events are actually a lot of different items placed on or removed from the grid/line via many different sources/locations. > My question is this: is it worthwhile to install a variac on > the mains for the item in question to "stabilize" the voltage? > Or will this not work as I envision it might/should? Nope, the nature of a variac is to only change the output voltage based on the physical position of a mechanical "tap" or "slider". In addition Mechanical variacs most often do not provide the physical/electrical isolation as received by using a standard power transformer. I use a 1:1 ratio isolation transformer in front of my variac to reduce the shock hazard. cheers, skipp
RE: [Repeater-Builder] Re: Switching Power Supply vs. Astron Etc.
Thanks for the fine explanation, Eric! My main concern/wonder was in regard to the issue mentioned by Skipp, and a perceived concern over damage that might occur as a result of the voltage fluctuations. I've even noticed dimming and brightening of the lights in my house when this apparently occurs - I guess the issue is not as serious as I thought. Just trying to be cautions - maybe overly so. ;-) Thanks again! Mark - N9WYS -Original Message- From: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com On Behalf Of Eric Lemmon Mark, Sudden and regular changes in voltage levels on long lines are normally caused by the switching in and out of capacitor banks that are used to improve voltage regulation on long distribution lines. This is most commonly used on lines carrying 4,160 to 22,000 volts. In areas where light industrial loads are common, the power factor is lagging during most of the day, due to the number of motors and other inductive loads connected. To counteract this lagging power factor, capacitor banks are switched in and out by either a timer or a voltage sensor. In my area, the nominal voltage jumped from about 119 volts to 123 volts in the morning, and dropped back in the late afternoon. This practice is very important in rural areas, where a 12kV line might run 20 miles to a farm. If regulators or capacitor banks were not used to stabilize the voltage, there would be large excursions each time the farmer started his irrigation pumps. Motors, being inductive, cause a lagging power factor that results in an increased voltage drop on the distribution circuit. The capacitors supply capacitive reactance that cancels the inductive reactance and, when properly applied, will improve the power factor to near unity and minimize the voltage drop. Most well-designed power supplies, both linear and switch-mode, will maintain a relatively stable output voltage despite wide variations in AC input voltage. Some designs are nearly immune to step-voltage changes resulting from capacitor switching. I don't think it's necessary to employ a Variac or similar variable transformer to adjust the voltage. If the measured AC voltage at the repeater site is not within the IEEE standard of 120 +/- 5%, then the utility should be contacted to change the transformer taps to bring the voltage within tolerance. 73, Eric Lemmon WB6FLY -Original Message- From: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of N9WYS Sent: Monday, January 15, 2007 8:43 PM To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [Repeater-Builder] Re: Switching Power Supply vs. Astron Etc. I'd like to pose a question here regarding only a portion of the discussion. This pertains to the "cleanliness" of the power received. I understand that the voltage can fluctuate widely when the utility switches on and out various circuits to meet demand. Skipp mentions that this can cause nasty things to happen to power supplies in equipment racks and cabinets in transmitter rooms, among other items of equipment. My question is this: is it worthwhile to install a variac on the mains for the item in question to "stabilize" the voltage? Or will this not work as I envision it might/should? Mark - N9WYS -Original Message- (much text snippage) I'll take the turn it off when not needed/used gamble because I've seen first hand what can and does come down the power line quite a bit more often that one would expect. It's not pretty, nor is it clean or stable 100% of the time. Our local utility does a big grid switch every weekday morning about 8am and that event alone is a huge glitch generator. Yahoo! Groups Links
RE: [Repeater-Builder] Re: Switching Power Supply vs. Astron Etc.
Mark, Sudden and regular changes in voltage levels on long lines are normally caused by the switching in and out of capacitor banks that are used to improve voltage regulation on long distribution lines. This is most commonly used on lines carrying 4,160 to 22,000 volts. In areas where light industrial loads are common, the power factor is lagging during most of the day, due to the number of motors and other inductive loads connected. To counteract this lagging power factor, capacitor banks are switched in and out by either a timer or a voltage sensor. In my area, the nominal voltage jumped from about 119 volts to 123 volts in the morning, and dropped back in the late afternoon. This practice is very important in rural areas, where a 12kV line might run 20 miles to a farm. If regulators or capacitor banks were not used to stabilize the voltage, there would be large excursions each time the farmer started his irrigation pumps. Motors, being inductive, cause a lagging power factor that results in an increased voltage drop on the distribution circuit. The capacitors supply capacitive reactance that cancels the inductive reactance and, when properly applied, will improve the power factor to near unity and minimize the voltage drop. Most well-designed power supplies, both linear and switch-mode, will maintain a relatively stable output voltage despite wide variations in AC input voltage. Some designs are nearly immune to step-voltage changes resulting from capacitor switching. I don't think it's necessary to employ a Variac or similar variable transformer to adjust the voltage. If the measured AC voltage at the repeater site is not within the IEEE standard of 120 +/- 5%, then the utility should be contacted to change the transformer taps to bring the voltage within tolerance. 73, Eric Lemmon WB6FLY -Original Message- From: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of N9WYS Sent: Monday, January 15, 2007 8:43 PM To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [Repeater-Builder] Re: Switching Power Supply vs. Astron Etc. I'd like to pose a question here regarding only a portion of the discussion. This pertains to the "cleanliness" of the power received. I understand that the voltage can fluctuate widely when the utility switches on and out various circuits to meet demand. Skipp mentions that this can cause nasty things to happen to power supplies in equipment racks and cabinets in transmitter rooms, among other items of equipment. My question is this: is it worthwhile to install a variac on the mains for the item in question to "stabilize" the voltage? Or will this not work as I envision it might/should? Mark - N9WYS -Original Message- (much text snippage) I'll take the turn it off when not needed/used gamble because I've seen first hand what can and does come down the power line quite a bit more often that one would expect. It's not pretty, nor is it clean or stable 100% of the time. Our local utility does a big grid switch every weekday morning about 8am and that event alone is a huge glitch generator.
RE: [Repeater-Builder] Re: Switching Power Supply vs. Astron Etc.
I'd like to pose a question here regarding only a portion of the discussion. This pertains to the "cleanliness" of the power received. I understand that the voltage can fluctuate widely when the utility switches on and out various circuits to meet demand. Skipp mentions that this can cause nasty things to happen to power supplies in equipment racks and cabinets in transmitter rooms, among other items of equipment. My question is this: is it worthwhile to install a variac on the mains for the item in question to "stabilize" the voltage? Or will this not work as I envision it might/should? Mark - N9WYS -Original Message- (much text snippage) I'll take the turn it off when not needed/used gamble because I've seen first hand what can and does come down the power line quite a bit more often that one would expect. It's not pretty, nor is it clean or stable 100% of the time. Our local utility does a big grid switch every weekday morning about 8am and that event alone is a huge glitch generator.
[Repeater-Builder] Re: Switching Power Supply vs. Astron Etc.
(much text snip'age) > I agree with you! The only difference will be any increased > efficiencies in the switcher over the mag and that will be small. "efficiencies" vs benefits? or are we calling them the same in this thread? > if the equipment that is powered by the astron, draws 30 amps, > it's going to draw 30 amps on the switcher. THAT CANNOT CHANGE > The power supply, both switcher and mag type, will draw the > required line current that is demanded by that load. I don't see a mention of the linear regulator efficiency vs the switcher. The method of Voltage regulation is the key. The line current drawn by the switcher will be less than the typical linear regulator and a lot less than many of the ferro- resonant transformer equipped power supplies. > If 30 amps are required at 13.8 volts the resultant power consumed > will REMAIN THE SAME POWERED BY THE MAG OR SWITCHER SUPPLY. Not so... the linear regulator circuit will consume quite a bit more energy, which most often ends up as heat... hence the reason why we have large (often undersized) heat sinks on the sides of those high current Astron Supplies. > then the efficiency differences between the two types of supply > will be the ONLY POSSIBLE DECREASE IN CONSUMED ELECTRICITY. Well... I thought that's what we were talking about... but maybe no soup for me. hummm > Since efficiency is the ONLY POSSIBLE GAIN and the switcher cannot > generate electricity and there is no perpetual motion, needed > magnetizing current decrease and possible utility current power > factor improvements are the ONLY POSSIBLE IMPROVEMENTS THAT CAN > OCCUR. Are you including ferroresonant repeater power supplies in your above statement? > As you can see, the only real advantage to the switching > supplies are mostly physical. Naaah... ! now you'r off the rails. What about the heat of the linear regulator? What about the energy required to deal with the extra heat? What about the possible reduced life span of the supply because of heat issues? What about those cute little hungry ferroresonant transformers found in a lot of Motorola Repeaters? What about red wine with fish? > If anyone believes they are going to save any substantial amount > of money by converting to switchers, they are going to be rudely > awakened. I was nicely - rudely awakened to the savings received over a hungry MSR-2000 linear power supply retrofit a few years back. Never thought to compare the before and after... but I can clearly see the difference on the utility bills I pay. Might be something worth following up with some measurements next time I visit a site. > It would take decades to recoup the cost of such equipment > replacements based upon utility savings. Only the actual numbers will tell the true story... There's more to the picture than utility savings but it is the major thread subject. Also keep in mind commercial power costs more than home power... quite a bit where I'm located. > One last myth left to clear up. A power supply connected to ac > current and left turned on 24/7/365 is the way to insure increased > equipment longevity. Not in my book... and not based on my actual experience. > I have heard many people say they must "turn their power supply > off when equipment is not being used to save electricity." NOTHING > COULD BE MORE ERRONEOUS. Not to save electricity... to save the supply. If you've ever spent any time on the power grid with serious test equipment you'd probably never leave anything even plugged in (when not used) if you had the option. I used to expect 100% clean power out of the wall and now by experience I know that expectation to be over optimistic. > The ONLY electricity being consumed when the load is switched > off, is magnetizing current and voltage correction current from > leakage etc. What..? you've never seen a Sola or a power supply with a ferro- resonant transformer (aka energy soak)? > Once again we speak of pennies. If you consider the stress > caused by switching the power supply on and off many times, > in the end you loose. Life expectancy is decreased by in rush, > each time the unit is re-energized. But the no free lunch rule applies. You fail to mention any of the issues related to the larger linear supply filter caps and how they degrade over time with heat. If the supply is on, it's often warm. If it's more than warm it's not helping the filter capacitors a lot. I'll take the turn it off when not needed/used gamble because I've seen first hand what can and does come down the power line quite a bit more often that one would expect. It's not pretty, nor is it clean or stable 100% of the time. Our local utility does a big grid switch every weekday morning about 8am and that event alone is a huge glitch generator. > I have had Astron mag. supplies functioning for DECADES with > no failure. As long as the input i
RE: [Repeater-Builder] Re: Switching Power Supply vs. Astron Etc.
I was wrong about the MICOR Power Supply number. I went by the number of the other supply shown in the MICOR UHF Repeater manual, instead of actually going out across the snow into the COLD garage to visibly look at the Supply. Its number is TPN1095A (also has a TLN4731A number on it). It's quite different than the TPN1110B with its big transformer and capacitor. We always referred to the TPN1095A as "The Switching Supply", but we might have been wrong all along! LJ -Original Message- >From: Eric Lemmon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >Sent: Jan 14, 2007 3:44 PM >To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com >Subject: RE: [Repeater-Builder] Re: Switching Power Supply vs. Astron Etc. > >Jeff, > >That sounds like a plan! And I agree with your and Ken's comment about the >TPN1151A being a linear supply- I checked a MICOR manual to be sure. I seem >to recall that there was a MICOR switch-mode supply, but I can't remember >which Compa-Stations had it installed, or what model number it bore. Old >age is affecting my memory, I guess... > >73, Eric Lemmon WB6FLY > > >-Original Message- >From: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com >[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Jeff DePolo >Sent: Sunday, January 14, 2007 3:21 PM >To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com >Subject: RE: [Repeater-Builder] Re: Switching Power Supply vs. Astron Etc. > >> You have a golden opportunity to provide an extremely >> valuable service to the radio community! If you can obtain >> the use of a wattmeter, you can make a comparison between the >> two power supplies. One such meter is the "KILL A WATT" >> meter that is sold under several brand names. It is >> inexpensive, and accurate enough for our purposes. > >Unless I'm remembering wrong, the TPN1151A was still a ferro supply just >like a TPN1110B. It had some kind of a switching circuit that was specific >to that model (which was the battery backup version power supply for the >Micor), but the main high current supply was still a ferro. At least that's >how I remember it. I can't remember ever having either of those supplies >fail (not even filter caps!) that I've never had to spend much time inside >them, nor their respective manual pages. > >If there's really interest in something like this, I can take both types of >Micor supplies, a GE M2 ferro, an Astron linear, a Duracomm/Iota switcher, >and maybe a few other things I have around and load test them at a few >different current draw points (something like no load, standby @2A, >mid-power transmit @ 15A, and high-power transmit @ 30A) and come up with a >table. I have a Transistor Devices electronic load good for 1000 watts so I >can do this with a fairly high degree of accuracy. I also have a Kill-A-Watt >along with traditional RMS-reading DVM's and amp-clamps too. If there's >interest email me and I'll put it on the ham projects to-do list. > >I'm thinking of a tabulation of input E/I/PF/VA/watts, output E/I/watts, and >efficiency (watts out vs watts out). Would that cover it? > >--- Jeff > >
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: Switching Power Supply vs. Astron Etc.
Erick, I agree with you! The only difference will be any increased efficiencies in the switcher over the mag and that will be small. I have had a Master Electrical License for 38 years. A physical law of science says that 746 watts equal 1 horsepower> There is no deviation from that scientific fact. In addition, if the equipment that is powered by the astron, draws 30 amps, it's going to draw 30 amps on the switcher. THAT CANNOT CHANGE> The power supply, both switcher and mag type, will draw the required line current that is demanded by that load. Ohm's law says P=E/I (power ((wattage)) = E((voltage)) divided by the amperage ((I)). If 30 amps are required at 13.8 volts the resultant power consumed will REMAIN THE SAME POWERED BY THE MAG OR SWITCHER SUPPLY. Since this physical law cannot change, then the efficiency differences between the two types of supply will be the ONLY POSSIBLE DECREASE IN CONSUMED ELECTRICITY. Since efficiency is the ONLY POSSIBLE GAIN and the switcher cannot generate electricity and there is no perpetual motion, needed magnetizing current decrease and possible utility current power factor improvements are the ONLY POSSIBLE IMPROVEMENTS THAT CAN OCCUR. If you consider these facts, you will instantly see that utility cost reductions will be minimal at best. Electrical company power charges are calculated in KWH (kilowatt hours). That is calculated by the formula KHW (killer what hours ((hi hi)) = wattage load (both apparent and actual) multiplied by the time used and divided by one thousand. Since the inefficiencies are these SMALL differences, any real electrical cost savings will be in pennies on the monthly bill and that is if the utility apparent wattage is in line with actual use (power factor corrected). As you can see, the only real advantage to the switching supplies are mostly physical. By the way. Accurately measuring these electrical differences with metering equipment can get quite complicated since ac power factor is involved. To correctly measure this you need to correct power factor by using correction capacitors. That is why utility meters have a designed and approved accuracy of 1.5 to 2 percent (this is national standard and regulation required). If anyone believes they are going to save any substantial amount of money by converting to switchers, they are going to be rudely awakened. It would take decades to recoup the cost of such equipment replacements based upon utility savings. One last myth left to clear up. A power supply connected to ac current and left turned on 24/7/365 is the way to insure increased equipment longevity. I have heard many people say they must "turn their power supply off when equipment is not being used to save electricity." NOTHING COULD BE MORE ERRONEOUS. The ONLY electricity being consumed when the load is switched off, is magnetizing current and voltage correction current from leakage etc. Since this is relatively minute, those "significant savings" are nonexistent. Once again we speak of pennies. If you consider the stress caused by switching the power supply on and off many times, in the end you loose. Life expectancy is decreased by in rush, each time the unit is re-energized. I have had Astron mag. supplies functioning for DECADES with no failure. As long as the input is protected by GOOD electronic spike suppression, failure is mostly limited to age or abuse (possible load shorts). I can only hope this helps clear up confusion and to eliminate conjecture regarding these subjects. David R. Henry LME - Original Message - From: "Eric Lemmon" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Sent: Sunday, January 14, 2007 3:07 PM Subject: RE: [Repeater-Builder] Re: Switching Power Supply vs. Astron Etc. > Larry, > > You have a golden opportunity to provide an extremely valuable service to > the radio community! If you can obtain the use of a wattmeter, you can > make > a comparison between the two power supplies. One such meter is the "KILL > A > WATT" meter that is sold under several brand names. It is inexpensive, > and > accurate enough for our purposes. > > Try measuring the power- both real and apparent- drawn by the same > equipment > while operating on the TPN1110B supply, and again while operating on the > TPN1151A supply. Make a note of all parameters in both the idle state and > while transmitting. I'll be surprised if the energy used by the switcher > is > not much less than the ferro-resonant unit. > > Keep in mind that the utility charges its customers for the consumption of > real power in watts over time, in kWh. In an AC circuit, the independent > measurement of volts and amperes does not equal watts unless the load is > resistive, which is definitely not the case with a power supply. > Therefo
RE: [Repeater-Builder] Re: Switching Power Supply vs. Astron Etc.
Jeff, That sounds like a plan! And I agree with your and Ken's comment about the TPN1151A being a linear supply- I checked a MICOR manual to be sure. I seem to recall that there was a MICOR switch-mode supply, but I can't remember which Compa-Stations had it installed, or what model number it bore. Old age is affecting my memory, I guess... 73, Eric Lemmon WB6FLY -Original Message- From: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Jeff DePolo Sent: Sunday, January 14, 2007 3:21 PM To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [Repeater-Builder] Re: Switching Power Supply vs. Astron Etc. > You have a golden opportunity to provide an extremely > valuable service to the radio community! If you can obtain > the use of a wattmeter, you can make a comparison between the > two power supplies. One such meter is the "KILL A WATT" > meter that is sold under several brand names. It is > inexpensive, and accurate enough for our purposes. Unless I'm remembering wrong, the TPN1151A was still a ferro supply just like a TPN1110B. It had some kind of a switching circuit that was specific to that model (which was the battery backup version power supply for the Micor), but the main high current supply was still a ferro. At least that's how I remember it. I can't remember ever having either of those supplies fail (not even filter caps!) that I've never had to spend much time inside them, nor their respective manual pages. If there's really interest in something like this, I can take both types of Micor supplies, a GE M2 ferro, an Astron linear, a Duracomm/Iota switcher, and maybe a few other things I have around and load test them at a few different current draw points (something like no load, standby @2A, mid-power transmit @ 15A, and high-power transmit @ 30A) and come up with a table. I have a Transistor Devices electronic load good for 1000 watts so I can do this with a fairly high degree of accuracy. I also have a Kill-A-Watt along with traditional RMS-reading DVM's and amp-clamps too. If there's interest email me and I'll put it on the ham projects to-do list. I'm thinking of a tabulation of input E/I/PF/VA/watts, output E/I/watts, and efficiency (watts out vs watts out). Would that cover it? --- Jeff
[Repeater-Builder] Re: Switching Power Supply vs. Astron Etc.
> If you use a modern switch-mode power supply from a reputable > manufacturer, you should not have any noise problems. The smart money would be to actually check the supply. I've got some duracomm, astron and a few other current brands that make more broadcast band poop than a new IBOC transmitter. "IBOC" to you non broadcast people is a bad thing for everyone. > Some of the postings allude to "noisy" switching power supplies, > but those problems were common a decade or so ago, not today. Not say I from the man in the back room. (starting to write like O'riley) > I use a Yaesu-branded Samlex switch-mode power supply for my > Yaesu FT-847 HF rig, and I have zero noise from it. You might have found an example of a well made supply. Cheers to Yaesu for doing one right... > My spectrum analyzer shows that it is clean on every Ham > band. I'd be curious to know what type of antenna or probe you used below 30 MHz? Ham bands are not the only location I would be concerned with. But... even a loud - bad switcher doesn't really hose up typical VHF High Band or UHF FM Operation that bad. > I also have several Astron and Duracomm switchers, and they, > too, are free of measurable broadband noise. The noise doesn't have to be broadband... just some unwanted buck-shot where you need/want it least. Sometimes the garbage will hose you up and you don't know it's the reason for poor performance at some other location. Life will go on... cheers, s.
RE: [Repeater-Builder] Re: Switching Power Supply vs. Astron Etc.
> You have a golden opportunity to provide an extremely > valuable service to the radio community! If you can obtain > the use of a wattmeter, you can make a comparison between the > two power supplies. One such meter is the "KILL A WATT" > meter that is sold under several brand names. It is > inexpensive, and accurate enough for our purposes. Unless I'm remembering wrong, the TPN1151A was still a ferro supply just like a TPN1110B. It had some kind of a switching circuit that was specific to that model (which was the battery backup version power supply for the Micor), but the main high current supply was still a ferro. At least that's how I remember it. I can't remember ever having either of those supplies fail (not even filter caps!) that I've never had to spend much time inside them, nor their respective manual pages. If there's really interest in something like this, I can take both types of Micor supplies, a GE M2 ferro, an Astron linear, a Duracomm/Iota switcher, and maybe a few other things I have around and load test them at a few different current draw points (something like no load, standby @2A, mid-power transmit @ 15A, and high-power transmit @ 30A) and come up with a table. I have a Transistor Devices electronic load good for 1000 watts so I can do this with a fairly high degree of accuracy. I also have a Kill-A-Watt along with traditional RMS-reading DVM's and amp-clamps too. If there's interest email me and I'll put it on the ham projects to-do list. I'm thinking of a tabulation of input E/I/PF/VA/watts, output E/I/watts, and efficiency (watts out vs watts out). Would that cover it? --- Jeff
RE: [Repeater-Builder] Re: Switching Power Supply vs. Astron Etc.
How clean are they in the AM broadcast band? -- Original Message -- Received: Sun, 14 Jan 2007 12:55:55 PM CST From: "Eric Lemmon" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Subject: RE: [Repeater-Builder] Re: Switching Power Supply vs. Astron Etc. > Mathew, > > If you use a modern switch-mode power supply from a reputable manufacturer, > you should not have any noise problems. > > Some of the postings allude to "noisy" switching power supplies, but those > problems were common a decade or so ago, not today. I use a Yaesu-branded > Samlex switch-mode power supply for my Yaesu FT-847 HF rig, and I have zero > noise from it. My spectrum analyzer shows that it is clean on every Ham > band. I also have several Astron and Duracomm switchers, and they, too, are > free of measurable broadband noise. I got far more broadband noise out of > my (former) 900 MHz desktop computer than I do now from any of my > switch-mode power supplies, and that noise was enough to upset a nearby VHF > radio. > > There have been several reviews of switch-mode power supplies published in > QST Magazine, the most recent being in the July 2006 issue. Previous > reviews appeared in the January 2000, September 2000, and September 2002 > issues. Even the least-expensive switch-mode power supply showed no > broadband noise in the Ham bands. As always, YMMV. > > 73, Eric Lemmon WB6FLY > > > -Original Message- > From: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Mathew Quaife > Sent: Sunday, January 14, 2007 10:22 AM > To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com > Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: Switching Power Supply vs. Astron Etc. > > The ojective is not gain amperage, I have plenty of that. This one is > available for free to me, and is brand new. This would release the 70 amp > Astron for use back in the ham shack for all the HF equipment, and would > serve also as a standby. Since the repeater is the only unit in this shack, > unless the noise was present on the repeater, there is nothing else to > suffer noise. The answer to the question has come, however, the final > result will be today when I switch them out and see if it brings any noises > to the repeater. > > Mathew > > >
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: Switching Power Supply vs. Astron Etc.
At 11:28 AM 1/14/2007, you wrote: >Would I gain any advantage by changing out my Motorola MICOR >Repeater TPN1110B supplies (the ones with the constant-voltage >transformer) to the TPN1151A Switching power supply? <---What makes you think the TPN1151A is a switcher? Ken -- President and CTO - Arcom Communications Makers of the world famous RC210 Repeater Controller and accessories. http://www.ah6le.net/arcom/index.html Authorized Dealers for Kenwood and Telewave and we offer complete repeater packages! AH6LE/R - IRLP Node 3000 http://www.irlp.net
RE: [Repeater-Builder] Re: Switching Power Supply vs. Astron Etc.
Larry, You have a golden opportunity to provide an extremely valuable service to the radio community! If you can obtain the use of a wattmeter, you can make a comparison between the two power supplies. One such meter is the "KILL A WATT" meter that is sold under several brand names. It is inexpensive, and accurate enough for our purposes. Try measuring the power- both real and apparent- drawn by the same equipment while operating on the TPN1110B supply, and again while operating on the TPN1151A supply. Make a note of all parameters in both the idle state and while transmitting. I'll be surprised if the energy used by the switcher is not much less than the ferro-resonant unit. Keep in mind that the utility charges its customers for the consumption of real power in watts over time, in kWh. In an AC circuit, the independent measurement of volts and amperes does not equal watts unless the load is resistive, which is definitely not the case with a power supply. Therefore, the measurement of current drawn by each power supply is meaningless, since it is not in phase with the voltage. The product of unsynchronized measurements of volts and amps in an AC circuit is VA, not watts, and will differ from watts depending upon the power factor. But, I digress... Just the watts consumed by each power supply in standby and transmit modes will be important to know. Once you see the difference, you may be inclined to stick with the switch-mode power supply- especially if you are paying for power. 73, Eric Lemmon WB6FLY -Original Message- From: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, January 14, 2007 11:28 AM To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: Switching Power Supply vs. Astron Etc. Would I gain any advantage by changing out my Motorola MICOR Repeater TPN1110B supplies (the ones with the constant-voltage transformer) to the TPN1151A Switching power supply? I have a few spares of each type, but most of my MICOR Repeaters came with the 1110B supply installed. I don't know why there were two types of supplies offered with the MICOR Repeater/Base Station radios. The switching supplies seem to be very quiet (even around an HF radio), as far as I have been able to determine. Some of the MICOR service manuals have sections for both supplies, to cover the particular unit that was supplied with the user's station. LJ
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: Switching Power Supply vs. Astron Etc.
Would I gain any advantage by changing out my Motorola MICOR Repeater TPN1110B supplies (the ones with the constant-voltage transformer) to the TPN1151A Switching power supply? I have a few spares of each type, but most of my MICOR Repeaters came with the 1110B supply installed. I don't know why there were two types of supplies offered with the MICOR Repeater/Base Station radios. The switching supplies seem to be very quiet (even around an HF radio), as far as I have been able to determine. Some of the MICOR service manuals have sections for both supplies, to cover the particular unit that was supplied with the user's station. LJ -Original Message- >From: skipp025 <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >Sent: Jan 14, 2007 9:09 AM >To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com >Subject: [Repeater-Builder] Re: Switching Power Supply vs. Astron Etc. > > >> If the supply you are using is fine why change? Yes, you >> would gain some amperage capacity. > >Relative example... >A room full of Motorola Repeater Stations in non constant >service costs about $30/month each to operate. Put the repeater >into lock to talk mode (IRLP or Echolink) and the energy cost >rises by almost a third (typical). > >One of the energy soaks is the well designed and constructed >transformers within the repeater power supplies. > >Replacing the hungry Motorhead Power Supplies cuts at least >1/2 off the power bill, which is much nicer when you're the one >having to pay it. > >> However, switching supplies are inherently noisy. You >> could experience problems from these noises. I realize >> we are not talking about HF. But, it is possible to wind >> up with a problem you don't have now. > >Many of the common 13.8 vdc switchers sold to the ham market >will hose up at least the 160 meter ham band no problem, which >is just above the am broadcast band I have on the shop when >XM is stale. > >> If that 50 amp supply is fine, I see no advantage in the change. >> Dave > >Cheers Dave, >skipp > >
RE: [Repeater-Builder] Re: Switching Power Supply vs. Astron Etc.
That is perfectly understandable Plus, as someone else mentioned, the switcher will save you money. Richard, N7TGB -Original Message- From: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Mathew Quaife Sent: Sunday, January 14, 2007 10:22 AM To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: Switching Power Supply vs. Astron Etc. The ojective is not gain amperage, I have plenty of that. This one is available for free to me, and is brand new. This would release the 70 amp Astron for use back in the ham shack for all the HF equipment, and would serve also as a standby. Since the repeater is the only unit in this shack, unless the noise was present on the repeater, there is nothing else to suffer noise. The answer to the question has come, however, the final result will be today when I switch them out and see if it brings any noises to the repeater. Mathew skipp025 <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > If the supply you are using is fine why change? Yes, you > would gain some amperage capacity. Relative example... A room full of Motorola Repeater Stations in non constant service costs about $30/month each to operate. Put the repeater into lock to talk mode (IRLP or Echolink) and the energy cost rises by almost a third (typical). One of the energy soaks is the well designed and constructed transformers within the repeater power supplies. Replacing the hungry Motorhead Power Supplies cuts at least 1/2 off the power bill, which is much nicer when you're the one having to pay it. > However, switching supplies are inherently noisy. You > could experience problems from these noises. I realize > we are not talking about HF. But, it is possible to wind > up with a problem you don't have now. Many of the common 13.8 vdc switchers sold to the ham market will hose up at least the 160 meter ham band no problem, which is just above the am broadcast band I have on the shop when XM is stale. > If that 50 amp supply is fine, I see no advantage in the change. > Dave Cheers Dave, skipp -- We won't tell. Get more on shows you hate to love (and love to hate): Yahoo! TV's Guilty Pleasures list.
RE: [Repeater-Builder] Re: Switching Power Supply vs. Astron Etc.
Mathew, If you use a modern switch-mode power supply from a reputable manufacturer, you should not have any noise problems. Some of the postings allude to "noisy" switching power supplies, but those problems were common a decade or so ago, not today. I use a Yaesu-branded Samlex switch-mode power supply for my Yaesu FT-847 HF rig, and I have zero noise from it. My spectrum analyzer shows that it is clean on every Ham band. I also have several Astron and Duracomm switchers, and they, too, are free of measurable broadband noise. I got far more broadband noise out of my (former) 900 MHz desktop computer than I do now from any of my switch-mode power supplies, and that noise was enough to upset a nearby VHF radio. There have been several reviews of switch-mode power supplies published in QST Magazine, the most recent being in the July 2006 issue. Previous reviews appeared in the January 2000, September 2000, and September 2002 issues. Even the least-expensive switch-mode power supply showed no broadband noise in the Ham bands. As always, YMMV. 73, Eric Lemmon WB6FLY -Original Message- From: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Mathew Quaife Sent: Sunday, January 14, 2007 10:22 AM To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: Switching Power Supply vs. Astron Etc. The ojective is not gain amperage, I have plenty of that. This one is available for free to me, and is brand new. This would release the 70 amp Astron for use back in the ham shack for all the HF equipment, and would serve also as a standby. Since the repeater is the only unit in this shack, unless the noise was present on the repeater, there is nothing else to suffer noise. The answer to the question has come, however, the final result will be today when I switch them out and see if it brings any noises to the repeater. Mathew
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: Switching Power Supply vs. Astron Etc.
The ojective is not gain amperage, I have plenty of that. This one is available for free to me, and is brand new. This would release the 70 amp Astron for use back in the ham shack for all the HF equipment, and would serve also as a standby. Since the repeater is the only unit in this shack, unless the noise was present on the repeater, there is nothing else to suffer noise. The answer to the question has come, however, the final result will be today when I switch them out and see if it brings any noises to the repeater. Mathew skipp025 <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > If the supply you are using is fine why change? Yes, you > would gain some amperage capacity. Relative example... A room full of Motorola Repeater Stations in non constant service costs about $30/month each to operate. Put the repeater into lock to talk mode (IRLP or Echolink) and the energy cost rises by almost a third (typical). One of the energy soaks is the well designed and constructed transformers within the repeater power supplies. Replacing the hungry Motorhead Power Supplies cuts at least 1/2 off the power bill, which is much nicer when you're the one having to pay it. > However, switching supplies are inherently noisy. You > could experience problems from these noises. I realize > we are not talking about HF. But, it is possible to wind > up with a problem you don't have now. Many of the common 13.8 vdc switchers sold to the ham market will hose up at least the 160 meter ham band no problem, which is just above the am broadcast band I have on the shop when XM is stale. > If that 50 amp supply is fine, I see no advantage in the change. > Dave Cheers Dave, skipp - We won't tell. Get more on shows you hate to love (and love to hate): Yahoo! TV's Guilty Pleasures list.
[Repeater-Builder] Re: Switching Power Supply vs. Astron Etc.
Re: Switching Power Supply vs. Astron Etc. Hi Jim, > I am concerned about noise from even the top line switching > supplies to my equipment and the other equipment in the tower > site. Probably easier to say each case will be different. Some supplies do operate at tower sites and no one wants to operate an HF Remote Base or AM Broadcast Monitor Radio. Sometimes the supply rfi radiation is not that bad and is well contained within a repeater cabinet. There are many good switchers available and used... just a question of how much and where (spectral wise) any radiation happens. You might audition the supply near an HF Radio if you ever expect to use and HF Remote base. > I have heard it said that placing a battery (over the supply, on > the supply, somewhere) will remove any of the noise. In your > experience does this work and if so how is the battery configured > on say a 70 amp switching supply? > Thanks JIM KA2AJH Well... a battery has an impedance that presents a load to noise and rfi. Some batteries make a difference and some batteries with higher internal impedance might not change anything. Might not even be the rfi antenna/culprit/source. Also consider the wire from the supply to any batteries might make a nice antenna. The better thought would be to use proper (complete) supply shielding and lead bypass. cheers, skipp
RE: [Repeater-Builder] Re: Switching Power Supply vs. Astron Etc.
Hi Skipp, I am concerned about noise from even the top line switching supplies to my equipment and the other equipment in the tower site. I have heard it said that placing a battery (over the supply, on the supply, somewhere) will remove any of the noise. In your experience does this work and if so how is the battery configured on say a 70 amp switching supply? Thanks JIM KA2AJH _ From: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of skipp025 Sent: Sunday, January 14, 2007 12:10 PM To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Subject: [Repeater-Builder] Re: Switching Power Supply vs. Astron Etc. > If the supply you are using is fine why change? Yes, you > would gain some amperage capacity. Relative example... A room full of Motorola Repeater Stations in non constant service costs about $30/month each to operate. Put the repeater into lock to talk mode (IRLP or Echolink) and the energy cost rises by almost a third (typical). One of the energy soaks is the well designed and constructed transformers within the repeater power supplies. Replacing the hungry Motorhead Power Supplies cuts at least 1/2 off the power bill, which is much nicer when you're the one having to pay it. > However, switching supplies are inherently noisy. You > could experience problems from these noises. I realize > we are not talking about HF. But, it is possible to wind > up with a problem you don't have now. Many of the common 13.8 vdc switchers sold to the ham market will hose up at least the 160 meter ham band no problem, which is just above the am broadcast band I have on the shop when XM is stale. > If that 50 amp supply is fine, I see no advantage in the change. > Dave Cheers Dave, skipp
[Repeater-Builder] Re: Switching Power Supply vs. Astron Etc.
> If the supply you are using is fine why change? Yes, you > would gain some amperage capacity. Relative example... A room full of Motorola Repeater Stations in non constant service costs about $30/month each to operate. Put the repeater into lock to talk mode (IRLP or Echolink) and the energy cost rises by almost a third (typical). One of the energy soaks is the well designed and constructed transformers within the repeater power supplies. Replacing the hungry Motorhead Power Supplies cuts at least 1/2 off the power bill, which is much nicer when you're the one having to pay it. > However, switching supplies are inherently noisy. You > could experience problems from these noises. I realize > we are not talking about HF. But, it is possible to wind > up with a problem you don't have now. Many of the common 13.8 vdc switchers sold to the ham market will hose up at least the 160 meter ham band no problem, which is just above the am broadcast band I have on the shop when XM is stale. > If that 50 amp supply is fine, I see no advantage in the change. > Dave Cheers Dave, skipp
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: Switching Power Supply vs. Astron Etc.
If you have RFI problems from a switching supply, it is not likely to show up on 70 CM, it is more likely to show up somewhere below 30 MHz. -- Original Message -- Received: Sat, 13 Jan 2007 01:49:42 PM CST From: "Tony L." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Subject: [Repeater-Builder] Re: Switching Power Supply vs. Astron Etc. > We replaced our troublesome Astron 50 amp, linear, rack mounted supply > with a Duracomm switched mode model about a year ago. No problems > whatsoever thus far. No noise at all on 70cm. Much lighter too; I > didn't hurt my back lifting into the cabinet as I have with the Astron. > > > --- In Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com, "n9lv" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > With all the talk about switching power supplies, I asked a question > > but did not really see my answer. Currently I have an Astron 70 Amp > > power supply on the repeater system. I have access to a 100 Amp > > Audiopipe DSPS10012 switching power supply available for the > > repeater. What would be the (dis)advantage of using this power > supply > > and release the 70 Amp Astron that is in line currently? > > > > Mathew > > > > >
[Repeater-Builder] Re: Switching Power Supply vs. Astron Etc.
We replaced our troublesome Astron 50 amp, linear, rack mounted supply with a Duracomm switched mode model about a year ago. No problems whatsoever thus far. No noise at all on 70cm. Much lighter too; I didn't hurt my back lifting into the cabinet as I have with the Astron. --- In Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com, "n9lv" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > With all the talk about switching power supplies, I asked a question > but did not really see my answer. Currently I have an Astron 70 Amp > power supply on the repeater system. I have access to a 100 Amp > Audiopipe DSPS10012 switching power supply available for the > repeater. What would be the (dis)advantage of using this power supply > and release the 70 Amp Astron that is in line currently? > > Mathew >
[Repeater-Builder] Re: Switching Power Supply vs. Astron Etc.
> Although cheap and EMI-prone switching power supplies are certainly > available to the unwary buyer, the switchers offered by "name brand" > makers such as Astron, Duracomm, and Samlex are extremely quiet > RF-wise. Naa I wouldn't make that statement as being global. Just depends on where you focus your attention. I can't use some switchers in some locations because of their switching noise and harmonics. One of my first clues was the shop am radio listening to a 50Kw output station 32 miles away going crap when the local switcher was first powered up. If you are going to use radios below the vhf range in the same location as a switcher... it might be prudent to listen around with a general coverage type hf receiver even well down onto the AM Broadcast Band. I had to jerk a few switchers out of a broadcast station racks for just such a reason. All was not wine and roses in the lower frequency ranges... > The relatively slow reaction time of a linear regulator can allow > a spike to sail right through and damage the radio. This factor > alone make the use of a switch-mode power supply worth the cost. Well... another global statement I don't totally agree with. But that's another thread > That's gotta be some humongous repeater system, if you really > need a 100 ampere power supply! Probably a very large stack of the old ACC DVR units... :-) (a little inside joke to some of you who've ever used the mentioned) cheers, skipp
