Re: [Repeater-Builder] Tower Painting and Lighting
I think the old FCC Form 610 asked if you were within 4 miles of the closest point of a runway. I can't say that I recall whether it was statute or nautical though. I guess I'll go look at a new application form, and see what it says. I'm no pilot, but this would seem to mean there would be a symetrical oval around a single runway airport using a 4-mile radius where aircraft might be flying lower and slower in an approach or other type pattern. Schools, homes, gas stations, restaurants, and grocery stores.. all could easily be within 4-miles of an airport. Around here, some of the higher ground along the ridge is unavailable for tower construction because they built an airport about four miles or less away in the valley below decades ago. There are places I'd love to put up a 190-foot tower for a repeater antenna. Heck! Pine trees grow 70 or 80-feet around here in places where you can't put up a tower. Lots of aircraft fly low, and then there are those special people who fly the ultra-lights.. SG - Original Message - From: Mark Holman [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, September 30, 2004 3:33 AM Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] Tower Painting and Lighting Yeah; Thats something that was never mentioned in any ham radio exams. maybe someone should submit an article to the ARRL for the QST Mag. MH - Original Message - From: Steve Grantham [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, September 29, 2004 7:46 PM Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] Tower Painting and Lighting Visit with a friendly pilot and look at some of those nice publications the FAA puts out that shows the patterns to fly around individual airports. A friend showed me some of these a while back. With figure-8s, ovals, symetrical, and non-symetrical patterns, and considering any unique terrain features, it seems to be no wonder they have to do studies on each individual application for construction. Steve - Original Message - From: Paul Finch [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, September 29, 2004 8:56 AM Subject: RE: [Repeater-Builder] Tower Painting and Lighting Hello, Did I mention this tower is going to be 4 miles due West of the South end of the runway, in other misspelled words, perpendicular to the runway. Thank God for spel chek! Paul -Original Message- From: mch [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, September 28, 2004 9:05 PM To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] Tower Painting and Lighting Paul Finch wrote: 20 feet, seems kinda crazy to me but that's the Government for ya! Yep. They probably went by the slide slope (or whatever the other side of that is called - the rise slope?) and it came out to 190 feet at that distance. They also required that it have red lights at night as well as being painted! Being painted has nothing to do with the night lighting. It only pertains to daytime - paint or lit. There are some that are both, but only because the owners decided it was better to light it and forget maintenance on the paint, so the paint is faded below standard. But, as long as it's lit, it doesn't matter. There certainly are cases where even below 200' the regulations apply. It's funny to see a power tower painted and lit while others on the same line, even higher in elevation, do not have to be. Same with water towers - the orange and white checkerboards are a hoot. Joe M. Yahoo! Groups Links Yahoo! Groups Links Yahoo! Groups Links Yahoo! Groups Links Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Repeater-Builder/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Tower Painting and Lighting
I work right next to a small Airport thats really interesting to the East a Tower has Red Strobes, the path for the runway they had to chop trees for that 100 to 1 ratio, and whats going to happen next Engineers are planning on building a new facility widening the area, in 2007-2008 , the job I have for that location is private contract, owner is the State of Michigan , over 2 1/2 years of squabbles, between land buying from the Airport for a helipad trading deals for a sewer line. What fun of watching planes take off and land, thats the immediate attraction. MH - Original Message - From: Steve Grantham [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, September 30, 2004 7:30 PM Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] Tower Painting and Lighting I think the old FCC Form 610 asked if you were within 4 miles of the closest point of a runway. I can't say that I recall whether it was statute or nautical though. I guess I'll go look at a new application form, and see what it says. I'm no pilot, but this would seem to mean there would be a symetrical oval around a single runway airport using a 4-mile radius where aircraft might be flying lower and slower in an approach or other type pattern. Schools, homes, gas stations, restaurants, and grocery stores.. all could easily be within 4-miles of an airport. Around here, some of the higher ground along the ridge is unavailable for tower construction because they built an airport about four miles or less away in the valley below decades ago. There are places I'd love to put up a 190-foot tower for a repeater antenna. Heck! Pine trees grow 70 or 80-feet around here in places where you can't put up a tower. Lots of aircraft fly low, and then there are those special people who fly the ultra-lights.. SG - Original Message - From: Mark Holman [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, September 30, 2004 3:33 AM Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] Tower Painting and Lighting Yeah; Thats something that was never mentioned in any ham radio exams. maybe someone should submit an article to the ARRL for the QST Mag. MH - Original Message - From: Steve Grantham [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, September 29, 2004 7:46 PM Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] Tower Painting and Lighting Visit with a friendly pilot and look at some of those nice publications the FAA puts out that shows the patterns to fly around individual airports. A friend showed me some of these a while back. With figure-8s, ovals, symetrical, and non-symetrical patterns, and considering any unique terrain features, it seems to be no wonder they have to do studies on each individual application for construction. Steve - Original Message - From: Paul Finch [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, September 29, 2004 8:56 AM Subject: RE: [Repeater-Builder] Tower Painting and Lighting Hello, Did I mention this tower is going to be 4 miles due West of the South end of the runway, in other misspelled words, perpendicular to the runway. Thank God for spel chek! Paul -Original Message- From: mch [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, September 28, 2004 9:05 PM To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] Tower Painting and Lighting Paul Finch wrote: 20 feet, seems kinda crazy to me but that's the Government for ya! Yep. They probably went by the slide slope (or whatever the other side of that is called - the rise slope?) and it came out to 190 feet at that distance. They also required that it have red lights at night as well as being painted! Being painted has nothing to do with the night lighting. It only pertains to daytime - paint or lit. There are some that are both, but only because the owners decided it was better to light it and forget maintenance on the paint, so the paint is faded below standard. But, as long as it's lit, it doesn't matter. There certainly are cases where even below 200' the regulations apply. It's funny to see a power tower painted and lit while others on the same line, even higher in elevation, do not have to be. Same with water towers - the orange and white checkerboards are a hoot. Joe M. Yahoo! Groups Links Yahoo! Groups Links Yahoo! Groups Links Yahoo! Groups Links Yahoo! Groups Links Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Repeater-Builder/ * To unsubscribe
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Tower Painting and Lighting
Visit with a friendly pilot and look at some of those nice publications the FAA puts out that shows the patterns to fly around individual airports. A friend showed me some of these a while back. With figure-8s, ovals, symetrical, and non-symetrical patterns, and considering any unique terrain features, it seems to be no wonder they have to do studies on each individual application for construction. Steve - Original Message - From: Paul Finch [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, September 29, 2004 8:56 AM Subject: RE: [Repeater-Builder] Tower Painting and Lighting Hello, Did I mention this tower is going to be 4 miles due West of the South end of the runway, in other misspelled words, perpendicular to the runway. Thank God for spel chek! Paul -Original Message- From: mch [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, September 28, 2004 9:05 PM To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] Tower Painting and Lighting Paul Finch wrote: 20 feet, seems kinda crazy to me but that's the Government for ya! Yep. They probably went by the slide slope (or whatever the other side of that is called - the rise slope?) and it came out to 190 feet at that distance. They also required that it have red lights at night as well as being painted! Being painted has nothing to do with the night lighting. It only pertains to daytime - paint or lit. There are some that are both, but only because the owners decided it was better to light it and forget maintenance on the paint, so the paint is faded below standard. But, as long as it's lit, it doesn't matter. There certainly are cases where even below 200' the regulations apply. It's funny to see a power tower painted and lit while others on the same line, even higher in elevation, do not have to be. Same with water towers - the orange and white checkerboards are a hoot. Joe M. Yahoo! Groups Links Yahoo! Groups Links Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Repeater-Builder/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
RE: [Repeater-Builder] Tower Painting and Lighting
Did I mention there are at 5 school facilities within spitting distance? If they are low enough to hit that 180 foot tower they have a lot more problems than the tower to contend with! Paul -Original Message- From: Steve Grantham [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, September 29, 2004 6:46 PM To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] Tower Painting and Lighting Visit with a friendly pilot and look at some of those nice publications the FAA puts out that shows the patterns to fly around individual airports. A friend showed me some of these a while back. With figure-8s, ovals, symetrical, and non-symetrical patterns, and considering any unique terrain features, it seems to be no wonder they have to do studies on each individual application for construction. Steve - Original Message - From: Paul Finch [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, September 29, 2004 8:56 AM Subject: RE: [Repeater-Builder] Tower Painting and Lighting Hello, Did I mention this tower is going to be 4 miles due West of the South end of the runway, in other misspelled words, perpendicular to the runway. Thank God for spel chek! Paul -Original Message- From: mch [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, September 28, 2004 9:05 PM To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] Tower Painting and Lighting Paul Finch wrote: 20 feet, seems kinda crazy to me but that's the Government for ya! Yep. They probably went by the slide slope (or whatever the other side of that is called - the rise slope?) and it came out to 190 feet at that distance. They also required that it have red lights at night as well as being painted! Being painted has nothing to do with the night lighting. It only pertains to daytime - paint or lit. There are some that are both, but only because the owners decided it was better to light it and forget maintenance on the paint, so the paint is faded below standard. But, as long as it's lit, it doesn't matter. There certainly are cases where even below 200' the regulations apply. It's funny to see a power tower painted and lit while others on the same line, even higher in elevation, do not have to be. Same with water towers - the orange and white checkerboards are a hoot. Joe M. Yahoo! Groups Links Yahoo! Groups Links Yahoo! Groups Links Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Repeater-Builder/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Tower Painting and Lighting
Yeah; Thats something that was never mentioned in any ham radio exams. maybe someone should submit an article to the ARRL for the QST Mag. MH - Original Message - From: Steve Grantham [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, September 29, 2004 7:46 PM Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] Tower Painting and Lighting Visit with a friendly pilot and look at some of those nice publications the FAA puts out that shows the patterns to fly around individual airports. A friend showed me some of these a while back. With figure-8s, ovals, symetrical, and non-symetrical patterns, and considering any unique terrain features, it seems to be no wonder they have to do studies on each individual application for construction. Steve - Original Message - From: Paul Finch [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, September 29, 2004 8:56 AM Subject: RE: [Repeater-Builder] Tower Painting and Lighting Hello, Did I mention this tower is going to be 4 miles due West of the South end of the runway, in other misspelled words, perpendicular to the runway. Thank God for spel chek! Paul -Original Message- From: mch [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, September 28, 2004 9:05 PM To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] Tower Painting and Lighting Paul Finch wrote: 20 feet, seems kinda crazy to me but that's the Government for ya! Yep. They probably went by the slide slope (or whatever the other side of that is called - the rise slope?) and it came out to 190 feet at that distance. They also required that it have red lights at night as well as being painted! Being painted has nothing to do with the night lighting. It only pertains to daytime - paint or lit. There are some that are both, but only because the owners decided it was better to light it and forget maintenance on the paint, so the paint is faded below standard. But, as long as it's lit, it doesn't matter. There certainly are cases where even below 200' the regulations apply. It's funny to see a power tower painted and lit while others on the same line, even higher in elevation, do not have to be. Same with water towers - the orange and white checkerboards are a hoot. Joe M. Yahoo! Groups Links Yahoo! Groups Links Yahoo! Groups Links Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Repeater-Builder/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: RE: [Repeater-Builder] Tower Painting and Lighting
I too am a pilot and that must be the standard question for a CFII to ask, I didn't think of something as quick as that, mine was something like practice flying a glider? - Original Message - From: N9WYS [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Thursday, September 30, 2004 10:56 am Subject: RE: [Repeater-Builder] Tower Painting and Lighting Once, when flying out of a local airport with my instructor, he asked me during the take-off what I'd do if I lost my engine right then. I lookedaround, noting a shopping center directly off the end of the runway we were using, and said, Go shopping at Eagle? Mark - N9WYS Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Repeater-Builder/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Tower Painting and Lighting
mch wrote: If you have daytime strobes, that's the reason the paint isn't required. You have to have the tower painted (correctly) OR use daytime strobes. At night, you have to light it using red or night strobes. This applies to any tower over 200' tall or close enough to an airport or heliport to be a hazard. Or a Federal Airway that goes over the top of your mountain. Or instrument flight approaches. Or being in the buffer zone of an instrument missed approach corridor. Or near a published helipad. Or on an unpublished (to the public) military training route -- and those are often times in places one wouldn't expect them to be. In other words, there are other things that trigger the need for lighting/painting other than just proximity to an airport. I get nervous when I see people try to teach new tower owners with rules of thumb like the near the airport rule, so I mention it. (Only 'cause I'm a pilot and when you're low and slow is no time to spot a new tower that suddenly sprung up.) The only way to know for sure is to apply to the FAA and let the folks in Oklahoma City figure it out. (Even temporary structures like cranes used for construction are typically flagged and lighted when they're close enough to an airport, and there's rules for them too. And it gives one a warm-fuzzy to hear Note: Cranes and construction equipment 200 AGL south and west of the airport. in the ATIS recording and in the NOTAMS when you talk to a Flight Service Station briefer.) Nate WY0X Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Repeater-Builder/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Tower Painting and Lighting
Helipad = Heliport the last time I checked. In any case, I was not trying to cite all the cases why you may need to light a tower. I was pointing out that lighting is usually a legit alternative to painting. If you're low and slow below 200', you had better be near an airport or heliport or you're most likely in violation of FAA rules anyway. ;- Joe M. Nate Duehr wrote: mch wrote: If you have daytime strobes, that's the reason the paint isn't required. You have to have the tower painted (correctly) OR use daytime strobes. At night, you have to light it using red or night strobes. This applies to any tower over 200' tall or close enough to an airport or heliport to be a hazard. Or a Federal Airway that goes over the top of your mountain. Or instrument flight approaches. Or being in the buffer zone of an instrument missed approach corridor. Or near a published helipad. Or on an unpublished (to the public) military training route -- and those are often times in places one wouldn't expect them to be. In other words, there are other things that trigger the need for lighting/painting other than just proximity to an airport. I get nervous when I see people try to teach new tower owners with rules of thumb like the near the airport rule, so I mention it. (Only 'cause I'm a pilot and when you're low and slow is no time to spot a new tower that suddenly sprung up.) The only way to know for sure is to apply to the FAA and let the folks in Oklahoma City figure it out. (Even temporary structures like cranes used for construction are typically flagged and lighted when they're close enough to an airport, and there's rules for them too. And it gives one a warm-fuzzy to hear Note: Cranes and construction equipment 200 AGL south and west of the airport. in the ATIS recording and in the NOTAMS when you talk to a Flight Service Station briefer.) Nate WY0X Yahoo! Groups Links Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Repeater-Builder/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Tower Painting and Lighting
You forgot to tell him about that occasional FAA inspector who just happens to be in the neighborhood wants to see that big ole stick, and all of those peices of paperwork , as well OSHA may do the same, and the paperwork they give him when they leave. I was wondering if some of those Government forms are still 14 + pages to fill out. it seems to grow once again. MH - Original Message - From: Steve Grantham [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, September 28, 2004 12:20 AM Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] Tower Painting and Lighting It's on the web for one and all to see. Just go surf the FCC and FAA websites. Find and read the applicable sections from the CFR and FAA advisory circulars. Happy reading.. and keep the aspirin (or non-aspirin substitute) handy. - Original Message - From: Q [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, September 27, 2004 9:53 PM Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] Tower Painting and Lighting Also keep in mind that ALL licensees on a given structure are responsible for FAA compliance and all will share fines if they dont,amateur included! - Original Message - From: Eric Lemmon [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, September 27, 2004 9:53 PM Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] Tower Painting and Lighting Hold on... it's the FAA who will decide what needs to be painted and/or lighted, not the tower owner! Once the exact coordinates on the NAD83 datum, and the height of the tower in meters, have been determined to the accuracy required by the FAA, a request for an Aeronautical Study is filed with the FAA. The FAA will investigate the hazard to air navigation, if any, and will issue an order to the tower owner as to what lighting and/or painting- if any- is required. Don't forget that towers or buildings used to support antenna structures may need to be registered with the FCC as Antenna Structures. Regardless of the height of the tower, it may need to be registered with the FCC if the FAA determines that it is or may be a hazard to air navigation. I went through this whole process for a 404-foot tower on a military base, simply because my Amateur Radio Club falls under the FCC- but the military normally is beholden only to IRAC and NTIA. Judging by the multi-million-dollar fines being levied on cellular and broadcast companies who ignore tower lighting and painting rules, this is not an area where anyone should assume anything. Let the FAA tell you in writing what is required, send a copy to the FCC, and follow the FAA's instructions. 73, Eric Lemmon WB6FLY Yahoo! Groups Links Yahoo! Groups Links Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Repeater-Builder/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Tower Painting and Lighting
mch wrote: If you're low and slow below 200', you had better be near an airport or heliport or you're most likely in violation of FAA rules anyway. ;- Heh heh. Very true, very true... 1000' AGL above populated areas. But... as the joke goes... There are those who've had engine failures, and those who will. And of course, *no* pilot has ever gotten lost! (Gasp!) Sorry, getting OT for this group. ;-) Just makin' sure all us radio-heads realize there's a good solid safety-related reason for all these silly tower lighting/painting rules! Thanks for listening. Nate WY0X Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Repeater-Builder/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
RE: [Repeater-Builder] Tower Painting and Lighting
Hello I am selling a customer a 180 foot Rohn SSV tower, it will be located 4 miles due West of one end of the West runway. The FAA would not give the total 200 feet of airspace I requested, said planes would hit it at that height so they gave me 180 feet. 20 feet, seems kinda crazy to me but that's the Government for ya! They also required that it have red lights at night as well as being painted! Speaking of which, anyone have anything to say bout the LED red mode compact beacons like Dialight sells? Paul -Original Message- From: Mark Holman [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, September 28, 2004 7:00 PM To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] Tower Painting and Lighting You can add if the area close to an Airport I believe 1 mile, also there will need to be some sort of a once every 24 hr. inspection to the strobes, and the number to the local F.A.A. facility if the strobes go out the call must be within a 30 Min. time frame. thats the fun of that tall tower. MH, CRO - Original Message - From: mch [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, September 28, 2004 11:05 AM Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] Tower Painting and Lighting Mr. Edgar McKinney wrote: The painting was wavered in our case cause of the tower material could not be painted. At each 50' and 100' are stable reds on with flash strobes for day use. If you have daytime strobes, that's the reason the paint isn't required. You have to have the tower painted (correctly) OR use daytime strobes. At night, you have to light it using red or night strobes. This applies to any tower over 200' tall or close enough to an airport or heliport to be a hazard. If your tower couldn't be painted, the daytime lighting was/is your only option. Do you have any pics of the tower at night? Sounds nice. Joe M. Yahoo! Groups Links Yahoo! Groups Links Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Repeater-Builder/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Tower Painting and Lighting
Paul Finch wrote: 20 feet, seems kinda crazy to me but that's the Government for ya! Yep. They probably went by the slide slope (or whatever the other side of that is called - the rise slope?) and it came out to 190 feet at that distance. They also required that it have red lights at night as well as being painted! Being painted has nothing to do with the night lighting. It only pertains to daytime - paint or lit. There are some that are both, but only because the owners decided it was better to light it and forget maintenance on the paint, so the paint is faded below standard. But, as long as it's lit, it doesn't matter. There certainly are cases where even below 200' the regulations apply. It's funny to see a power tower painted and lit while others on the same line, even higher in elevation, do not have to be. Same with water towers - the orange and white checkerboards are a hoot. Joe M. Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Repeater-Builder/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
RE: [Repeater-Builder] Tower Painting and Lighting
If the glide slope is at a height of 190 ft at a distance of 4 miles from the runway, I will put in a prayer for all the poor pilots relying on this ILS system hi hi. Yep. They probably went by the slide slope (or whatever the other side of that is called - the rise slope?) and it came out to 190 feet at that distance. --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.742 / Virus Database: 495 - Release Date: 19/08/2004 Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Repeater-Builder/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Tower Painting and Lighting
Paul Finch wrote: Ed, Maybe a dumb question but what is the tower made out of that does not accept paint? Its a Rhone self supporting but is stainless. It is also guided for extra strength. Gewts windy at the site as well as ice. The flood lights are on only when there is night time maintaince. Normal bill is bout 650 to 2000 a month. Depends if the heaters is on in the winter. Also the local electric company is one of our customers. We still get a bill but only pay 1\4 of it. Barting works. Ed What does the electric bill run and where is this tower, I would like to see it! I have several already, If I could find them. They in my pic box with hundred others. Have yet to plae 'em in an album. Maybe you could take a picture one evening around dusk just after the reds turn in and post it to the group. Paul Ed Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Repeater-Builder/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Tower Painting and Lighting
mch wrote: Mr. Edgar McKinney wrote: The painting was wavered in our case cause of the tower material could not be painted. At each 50' and 100' are stable reds on with flash strobes for day use. If you have daytime strobes, that's the reason the paint isn't required. You have to have the tower painted (correctly) OR use daytime strobes. At night, you have to light it using red or night strobes. This applies to any tower over 200' tall or close enough to an airport or heliport to be a hazard. If your tower couldn't be painted, the daytime lighting was/is your only option. Do you have any pics of the tower at night? Sounds nice. Joe M. Thats right. All lighting - strobes - are reduntant so it gives the maintainence guys to get there to replace them. Ed Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Repeater-Builder/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Tower Painting and Lighting
Tony leveled wrote: If the glide slope is at a height of 190 ft at a distance of 4 miles from the runway, I will put in a prayer for all the poor pilots relying on this ILS system hi hi. Standard ILS glideslope is 3 degrees, but they vary. That angle is from the ILS transmitter which is usually at or near the Runway Touch Down Zone and not at the runway threshold, but that varies also. 200' probably put your tower just inside the LOW side of the glideslope protection funnel (funnel would include the left/right indications of the ILS also of course). Venturing beyond the protection of the ILS low-side indications on an approach puts pilots beyond the point where they should only venture if they like hitting things. But there are crazy bastards who'll attempt to level off and fly back onto the glideslope from below out there... they all have death-wishes, or an innate inability to admit they screwed up and execute and immediate climb and missed-approach procedures. There are also so-called non-precision approaches which typically step the pilot down using the pressure altimeter and some non-precision directional information such as a Non-Directional Beacon (NDB) or GPS coordinates, etc... you usually end up somewhere between 200' and 500' AGL lollygagging around out near the approach end of the runway somewhere, looking ahead for any signs of something that looks like an airport. Non-precision approaches attempt to get the aircraft down to the final altitude 3-5 nautical miles from the runway environment to give the pilot of a 200 knot aircraft a little bit longer to look out the window for signs of an airport out there in the clouds... 4 miles isn't that far when you're doing 3 miles a minute! Even at a more common speed of 120 knots, that's still 2 nautical miles a minute. 5 nm out at 120 knots gives you 2.5 minutes to play Where's Waldo with the airport in a fog bank. Nautical miles are 6080' for those interested... so your 4 statute miles is less than that in terms of nautical miles, which is what pilots work in. 3.4 nautical miles to be exact. Most missed approach points for precision approaches like ILS are somewhere before the runway. Many non-precision approach missed approach points are in the center of the runway environment and many are based on speed and a stopwatch, if the navigation transmitter isn't on the airfield. And now I've bored you all to death with just the tip of the iceberg when it comes to instrument flying... and I've probably screwed some of it up, but it gives the flavor from the other side of the cockpit glass/plexiglass. To be fair to us radio folks, I've seen FAA drop non-precision approaches to an airport entirely after the construction of a tower nearby -- they sometimes determine the tower is more useful than the non-precision instrument approach. It's a tough juggling act they have. Keep those towers lit and painted!!! AND THANK YOU!!! We folks in our gas-powered flying bugsmashers appreciate it greatly when the WX goes down the tubes unexpectedly! (GRIN) Nate WY0X Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Repeater-Builder/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
RE: [Repeater-Builder] Tower Painting and Lighting
Hello, Did I mention this tower is going to be 4 miles due West of the South end of the runway, in other misspelled words, perpendicular to the runway. Thank God for spel chek! Paul -Original Message- From: mch [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, September 28, 2004 9:05 PM To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] Tower Painting and Lighting Paul Finch wrote: 20 feet, seems kinda crazy to me but that's the Government for ya! Yep. They probably went by the slide slope (or whatever the other side of that is called - the rise slope?) and it came out to 190 feet at that distance. They also required that it have red lights at night as well as being painted! Being painted has nothing to do with the night lighting. It only pertains to daytime - paint or lit. There are some that are both, but only because the owners decided it was better to light it and forget maintenance on the paint, so the paint is faded below standard. But, as long as it's lit, it doesn't matter. There certainly are cases where even below 200' the regulations apply. It's funny to see a power tower painted and lit while others on the same line, even higher in elevation, do not have to be. Same with water towers - the orange and white checkerboards are a hoot. Joe M. Yahoo! Groups Links Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Repeater-Builder/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Tower Painting and Lighting
Hold on... it's the FAA who will decide what needs to be painted and/or lighted, not the tower owner! Once the exact coordinates on the NAD83 datum, and the height of the tower in meters, have been determined to the accuracy required by the FAA, a request for an Aeronautical Study is filed with the FAA. The FAA will investigate the hazard to air navigation, if any, and will issue an order to the tower owner as to what lighting and/or painting- if any- is required. Don't forget that towers or buildings used to support antenna structures may need to be registered with the FCC as Antenna Structures. Regardless of the height of the tower, it may need to be registered with the FCC if the FAA determines that it is or may be a hazard to air navigation. I went through this whole process for a 404-foot tower on a military base, simply because my Amateur Radio Club falls under the FCC- but the military normally is beholden only to IRAC and NTIA. Judging by the multi-million-dollar fines being levied on cellular and broadcast companies who ignore tower lighting and painting rules, this is not an area where anyone should assume anything. Let the FAA tell you in writing what is required, send a copy to the FCC, and follow the FAA's instructions. 73, Eric Lemmon WB6FLY Maire Company wrote: just remember anything over 200' to the tip you need to light and /or paint. Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Repeater-Builder/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Tower Painting and Lighting
We get the idea got some info from FCC on towers just trying to absorb it all . - Original Message - From: Eric Lemmon [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, September 27, 2004 6:53 PM Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] Tower Painting and Lighting Hold on... it's the FAA who will decide what needs to be painted and/or lighted, not the tower owner! Once the exact coordinates on the NAD83 datum, and the height of the tower in meters, have been determined to the accuracy required by the FAA, a request for an Aeronautical Study is filed with the FAA. The FAA will investigate the hazard to air navigation, if any, and will issue an order to the tower owner as to what lighting and/or painting- if any- is required. Don't forget that towers or buildings used to support antenna structures may need to be registered with the FCC as Antenna Structures. Regardless of the height of the tower, it may need to be registered with the FCC if the FAA determines that it is or may be a hazard to air navigation. I went through this whole process for a 404-foot tower on a military base, simply because my Amateur Radio Club falls under the FCC- but the military normally is beholden only to IRAC and NTIA. Judging by the multi-million-dollar fines being levied on cellular and broadcast companies who ignore tower lighting and painting rules, this is not an area where anyone should assume anything. Let the FAA tell you in writing what is required, send a copy to the FCC, and follow the FAA's instructions. 73, Eric Lemmon WB6FLY Maire Company wrote: just remember anything over 200' to the tip you need to light and /or paint. Yahoo! Groups Links Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Repeater-Builder/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Tower Painting and Lighting
You tell them Eric! --- Eric Lemmon [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hold on... it's the FAA who will decide what needs to be painted and/or lighted, not the tower owner! Once the exact coordinates on the NAD83 datum, and the height of the tower in meters, have been determined to the accuracy required by the FAA, a request for an Aeronautical Study is filed with the FAA. The FAA will investigate the hazard to air navigation, if any, and will issue an order to the tower owner as to what lighting and/or painting- if any- is required. Don't forget that towers or buildings used to support antenna structures may need to be registered with the FCC as Antenna Structures. Regardless of the height of the tower, it may need to be registered with the FCC if the FAA determines that it is or may be a hazard to air navigation. I went through this whole process for a 404-foot tower on a military base, simply because my Amateur Radio Club falls under the FCC- but the military normally is beholden only to IRAC and NTIA. Judging by the multi-million-dollar fines being levied on cellular and broadcast companies who ignore tower lighting and painting rules, this is not an area where anyone should assume anything. Let the FAA tell you in writing what is required, send a copy to the FCC, and follow the FAA's instructions. 73, Eric Lemmon WB6FLY Maire Company wrote: just remember anything over 200' to the tip you need to light and /or paint. Yahoo! Groups Links [EMAIL PROTECTED] __ Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - Send 10MB messages! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Repeater-Builder/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Tower Painting and Lighting
Also keep in mind that ALL licensees on a given structure are responsible for FAA compliance and all will share fines if they dont,amateur included! - Original Message - From: Eric Lemmon [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, September 27, 2004 9:53 PM Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] Tower Painting and Lighting Hold on... it's the FAA who will decide what needs to be painted and/or lighted, not the tower owner! Once the exact coordinates on the NAD83 datum, and the height of the tower in meters, have been determined to the accuracy required by the FAA, a request for an Aeronautical Study is filed with the FAA. The FAA will investigate the hazard to air navigation, if any, and will issue an order to the tower owner as to what lighting and/or painting- if any- is required. Don't forget that towers or buildings used to support antenna structures may need to be registered with the FCC as Antenna Structures. Regardless of the height of the tower, it may need to be registered with the FCC if the FAA determines that it is or may be a hazard to air navigation. I went through this whole process for a 404-foot tower on a military base, simply because my Amateur Radio Club falls under the FCC- but the military normally is beholden only to IRAC and NTIA. Judging by the multi-million-dollar fines being levied on cellular and broadcast companies who ignore tower lighting and painting rules, this is not an area where anyone should assume anything. Let the FAA tell you in writing what is required, send a copy to the FCC, and follow the FAA's instructions. 73, Eric Lemmon WB6FLY Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Repeater-Builder/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Tower Painting and Lighting
Eric Lemmon wrote: Hold on... it's the FAA who will decide what needs to be painted and/or lighted, not the tower owner! Once the exact coordinates on the NAD83 datum, and the height of the tower in meters, have been determined to the accuracy required by the FAA, a request for an Aeronautical Study is filed with the FAA. The FAA will investigate the hazard to air navigation, if any, and will issue an order to the tower owner as to what lighting and/or painting- if any- is required. Don't forget that towers or buildings used to support antenna structures may need to be registered with the FCC as Antenna Structures. Regardless of the height of the tower, it may need to be registered with the FCC if the FAA determines that it is or may be a hazard to air navigation. I went through this whole process for a 404-foot tower on a military base, simply because my Amateur Radio Club falls under the FCC- but the military normally is beholden only to IRAC and NTIA. Judging by the multi-million-dollar fines being levied on cellular and broadcast companies who ignore tower lighting and painting rules, this is not an area where anyone should assume anything. Let the FAA tell you in writing what is required, send a copy to the FCC, and follow the FAA's instructions. 73, Eric Lemmon WB6FLY Maire Company wrote: just remember anything over 200' to the tip you need to light and /or paint. On my brother's 475 footer we have an over kill on the lighting. All are reduntant. The painting was wavered in our case cause of the tower material could not be painted. Ya otta see the tower fully lighted up at night. At each 100' deck level are several halgen lights lighting the deck. At each 50' and 100' are stable reds on with flash strobes for day use. The top has tripple redundant reds and flashers. After three years or so we should be seeing profit. Ed Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Repeater-Builder/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Tower Painting and Lighting
Just aply under part-17 and the faa will let you know about lighting and or painting. 73 Russ, W3CH - Original Message - From: Q [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, September 27, 2004 10:53 PM Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] Tower Painting and Lighting Also keep in mind that ALL licensees on a given structure are responsible for FAA compliance and all will share fines if they dont,amateur included! - Original Message - From: Eric Lemmon [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, September 27, 2004 9:53 PM Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] Tower Painting and Lighting Hold on... it's the FAA who will decide what needs to be painted and/or lighted, not the tower owner! Once the exact coordinates on the NAD83 datum, and the height of the tower in meters, have been determined to the accuracy required by the FAA, a request for an Aeronautical Study is filed with the FAA. The FAA will investigate the hazard to air navigation, if any, and will issue an order to the tower owner as to what lighting and/or painting- if any- is required. Don't forget that towers or buildings used to support antenna structures may need to be registered with the FCC as Antenna Structures. Regardless of the height of the tower, it may need to be registered with the FCC if the FAA determines that it is or may be a hazard to air navigation. I went through this whole process for a 404-foot tower on a military base, simply because my Amateur Radio Club falls under the FCC- but the military normally is beholden only to IRAC and NTIA. Judging by the multi-million-dollar fines being levied on cellular and broadcast companies who ignore tower lighting and painting rules, this is not an area where anyone should assume anything. Let the FAA tell you in writing what is required, send a copy to the FCC, and follow the FAA's instructions. 73, Eric Lemmon WB6FLY Yahoo! Groups Links Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Repeater-Builder/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
RE: [Repeater-Builder] Tower Painting and Lighting
Ed, Maybe a dumb question but what is the tower made out of that does not accept paint? What does the electric bill run and where is this tower, I would like to see it! Maybe you could take a picture one evening around dusk just after the reds turn in and post it to the group. Paul -Original Message- From: Mr. Edgar McKinney [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, September 28, 2004 6:28 AM To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] Tower Painting and Lighting Eric Lemmon wrote: Hold on... it's the FAA who will decide what needs to be painted and/or lighted, not the tower owner! Once the exact coordinates on the NAD83 datum, and the height of the tower in meters, have been determined to the accuracy required by the FAA, a request for an Aeronautical Study is filed with the FAA. The FAA will investigate the hazard to air navigation, if any, and will issue an order to the tower owner as to what lighting and/or painting- if any- is required. Don't forget that towers or buildings used to support antenna structures may need to be registered with the FCC as Antenna Structures. Regardless of the height of the tower, it may need to be registered with the FCC if the FAA determines that it is or may be a hazard to air navigation. I went through this whole process for a 404-foot tower on a military base, simply because my Amateur Radio Club falls under the FCC- but the military normally is beholden only to IRAC and NTIA. Judging by the multi-million-dollar fines being levied on cellular and broadcast companies who ignore tower lighting and painting rules, this is not an area where anyone should assume anything. Let the FAA tell you in writing what is required, send a copy to the FCC, and follow the FAA's instructions. 73, Eric Lemmon WB6FLY Maire Company wrote: just remember anything over 200' to the tip you need to light and /or paint. On my brother's 475 footer we have an over kill on the lighting. All are reduntant. The painting was wavered in our case cause of the tower material could not be painted. Ya otta see the tower fully lighted up at night. At each 100' deck level are several halgen lights lighting the deck. At each 50' and 100' are stable reds on with flash strobes for day use. The top has tripple redundant reds and flashers. After three years or so we should be seeing profit. Ed Yahoo! Groups Links Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Repeater-Builder/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
RE: [Repeater-Builder] Tower Painting and Lighting
This should take some of the guesswork out of the equation... This is a good place to start.. http://wireless.fcc.gov/antenna/about/gettingstarted1.html Or, you can take a look at the flow-chart for an idea of how the process works.. http://www.faa.gov/ats/aaf/asr/library/Forms/Non-Fed_process.pdf A PDF version of form 7460-1 can be found here... http://forms.faa.gov/forms/faa7460-1.pdf Marking and lighting advisory circular can be found here.. http://www.faa.gov/ATS/ATA/ai/AC70_7460_1K.pdf 73's mike -Original Message- From: mch [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, September 28, 2004 11:06 AM To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] Tower Painting and Lighting Mr. Edgar McKinney wrote: The painting was wavered in our case cause of the tower material could not be painted. At each 50' and 100' are stable reds on with flash strobes for day use. If you have daytime strobes, that's the reason the paint isn't required. You have to have the tower painted (correctly) OR use daytime strobes. At night, you have to light it using red or night strobes. This applies to any tower over 200' tall or close enough to an airport or heliport to be a hazard. If your tower couldn't be painted, the daytime lighting was/is your only option. Do you have any pics of the tower at night? Sounds nice. Joe M. Yahoo! Groups Links Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Repeater-Builder/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Tower Painting and Lighting
Mr. Edgar McKinney wrote: The painting was wavered in our case cause of the tower material could not be painted. At each 50' and 100' are stable reds on with flash strobes for day use. If you have daytime strobes, that's the reason the paint isn't required. You have to have the tower painted (correctly) OR use daytime strobes. At night, you have to light it using red or night strobes. This applies to any tower over 200' tall or close enough to an airport or heliport to be a hazard. If your tower couldn't be painted, the daytime lighting was/is your only option. Do you have any pics of the tower at night? Sounds nice. Joe M. Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Repeater-Builder/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
