Re: [Rosegarden-user] problem with basic functionality (tracks, instruments, ZynAddSubFX connection)

[Abrolag]

On Sun, 10 Jan 2016 08:55:30 -0500

> With ZynAddSubFX, there is (or was, and probably still isn't) anything 
> to import.  It doesn't understand program changes, full stop, so the 
> only way to control what track plays what is by assigning the channel, 
> which is the same thing as the instrument number, #1, #2, #3, and so 
> forth.  (Make sure channel remains set to [Fixed], for reasons I won't 
> take time to explain at this time.)

To be fair, Zyn does now understand program changes, but *only* for parts that
have been previously enabled.

However, their management of bank changes is not MIDI standard.

At the risk of bringing down the wrath of (many) gods on my head. Yoshimi gets
that bit completely right - it may have a different set of wrong 'uns :)

Disclaimer:
I'm the lead developer for Yoshimi.

-- 
W J G

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Re: [Rosegarden-user] Holger's suggestion

[Abrolag]

On Sun, 10 Jan 2016 12:37:28 +0100 (CET)
Holger Marzen  wrote:

> On Sun, 10 Jan 2016, Leszek Wroński wrote:
> 
> > Thank you very much again. Indeed Rosegarden displays a warning and tells
> > me to run 'sudo modprobe snd-rtctimer'. Unfortunately, I don't have that
> > module. I ran 'sudo modprobe snd-hrtimer' instead, but the warning still
> > appears. The 'details' section informs me "WARNING: using system timer with
> > only 250Hz resolution!"
> 
> That means that you use a standard kernel, not a low latency kernel.
> There are 3 classes of kernels:
> 
> - standard for servers and desktops, usually with 250 HZ
> - lowlatency kernels, usually with 1000 HZ
> - realtime kernel, rocket science from outer space
> 
> Realtime kernels may be the kernels of choice when seeking for lowest
> possible latencies for live use with a superfast interface.
> 
> I use and recommend lowlatency kernels. No rocket science. Just install
> a lowlatency kernel. It's usually in the repository of your distribution
> with "lowlatency" in its name.
> 
> Install, boot this kernel, enjoy.

You can still get very good results if you point Rosegarden's timer to your
soundcard, which *will* be a high resolution time source.
e.g. HW:PCH

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Re: [Rosegarden-user] the Zyn tutorial; and praise

[D. Michael McIntyre]

Credit for the quantization goes to none other than Chris Cannam.

I have had a troubled relationship with Rosegarden over the years, and 
there have been times when I was ready to throw my hands up in 
frustration and do something more fun for a hobby.  On one such 
occasion, I made the rounds and tried demo versions of all the big 
dollar commercial toys.  The weird Linux hybrid audio-notation-sequencer 
thing trounces all of them.  It's true.

Rosegarden is very weird, and many things are not especially friendly, 
but I deal with the whole tangled mess for the notation quantizer.  It 
is the jewel in Rosegarden's crown.

Heh.  Rosegarden's crown of thorns, I should say.  Well, the application 
IS named after a funeral of sores.

On 01/10/2016 06:59 AM, Leszek Wroński wrote:
> I just want to say that while I have now, thanks to Holger's
> suggestions, managed to get the basic functionality I had initially
> wanted, I'm still very much interested in what I was doing wrong with
> respect to the connection with ZynAddSubFX. If you do find some time to
> respond, I'd be very grateful.
>
> I'll eventually be editing some scores with Lilypond which I want to
> transcribe using MIDI from a copy of a manuscript. At this moment I can
> tell that, in regular (non-rt-kernel) 14.04 Ubuntu, Rosegarden's MIDI
> record option with a posteriori quantization is miles better than what
> Finale 2012 (I haven't upgraded yet, since I moved to Lilypond) offers
> in Windows 7. That is, I recorded a line with a lot of triplets, and
> while it initially displayed incorrectly (of course), using Rosegarden's
> quantization function with the 'triplet' option transformed it into a
> perfect copy (pitch- and note-duration-wise) of the manuscript. That's
> the first time I've seen something like this. Fantastic!
>
> Cheers,
>
> Leszek.
>
> From: "D. Michael McIntyre"  >
> To: rosegarden-user@lists.sourceforge.net
> 
> Cc:
> Date: Sat, 9 Jan 2016 17:12:35 -0500
> Subject: Re: [Rosegarden-user] problem with basic functionality (tracks,
> instruments, ZynAddSubFX connection)
> On 01/09/2016 01:19 PM, Leszek Wroński wrote:
>
> My first modest goal is to successfully go through this tutorial:
> http://www.rosegardenmusic.com/tutorials/supplemental/zyn/zyn.html
>
>
> I will go through all of this with you when I get the time.  I sat down
> to do it here and now, but this is going to be somewhat involved, and I
> have a very long day of work ahead of me.  I have to go deal with that
> and recover before I will have the energy to help.  It will probably be
> a day or longer before I get back to you, but I will.
> --
> D. Michael McIntyre
>

-- 
D. Michael McIntyre

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Re: [Rosegarden-user] problem with basic functionality (tracks, instruments, ZynAddSubFX connection)

[D. Michael McIntyre]

On 01/09/2016 01:19 PM, Leszek Wroński wrote:

> My first modest goal is to successfully go through this tutorial:
> http://www.rosegardenmusic.com/tutorials/supplemental/zyn/zyn.html

So let's see, going through the old tutorial...

Rosegarden no longer creates new devices spontaneously.  All that 
"external device 4" garbage is a thing of the past.  If you plug in or 
run a new toy, you need to create a new device for the toy manually.

I recommend doing this from an empty document, then saving the result as 
your new default studio.

> You can see I also connect my keyboard so it speaks to Rosegarden only.

Be aware that Rosegarden may not play nice with MIDI connections made 
and broken with QJackCtl.

Historically, Rosegarden has always had the inconsistency that you have 
to use the external connection manager for audio connections, and you 
have to use the internal connection manager for MIDI connections.

I have no idea if anybody ever fixed that.  I still do it the old way, 
and the old way still works.

> But now I'm at a total loss. I would assume that I would be able to
> change instruments used in the track from inside Rosegarden. Still, the
> tutorial does not suggest this; it tells me to choose '#1' on the
> Instrument List in Track Parameters. But I see nothing like this there.

The tutorial would have expected Rosegarden to create a device for 
ZynAddSubFX with some stupid name like "external device 987" which you 
would have edited to change the name.

It looks like what you did was change the default "General MIDI Device" 
instead.  You changed the name to "ZYN" and changed the connection, but 
the device still contains program definitions for General MIDI.  That's 
why you're seeing "#1 (Acoustic Grand Piano)" instead of "#1."

The tutorial assumed you wouldn't have bothered setting up anything more 
than that for ZynAddSubFX.  At the time I wrote that, it didn't respond 
to external program changes.  You changed sounds on the thing by editing 
inside ZynAddSubFX itself.  One classic piece I did used one preset 
patch on channel 1, another on channel 10, etc., and I still have that 
configuration stored in a separate .xmz file.  To play the old 
composition, I have to load the old .xmz file into ZynAddSubFX manually, 
if it even still works.

Managing all of that over time does get to be a pain in the ass, yes.

So anyway, if you want to experience the same thing as the tutorial, 
start by creating a new device from scratch, rather than recycling the 
existing one.  (You could also delete all the banks manually, but it's 
easier to start fresh.)

> At this point my question is: why am I not seeing the banks and
> instruments from Zyn inside Rosegarden? At some time I thought I should
> use the Studio -> Manage Midi Devices -> Banks -> Import option, but
> there's no file named in a way which would suggest a connection with Zyn.

With ZynAddSubFX, there is (or was, and probably still isn't) anything 
to import.  It doesn't understand program changes, full stop, so the 
only way to control what track plays what is by assigning the channel, 
which is the same thing as the instrument number, #1, #2, #3, and so 
forth.  (Make sure channel remains set to [Fixed], for reasons I won't 
take time to explain at this time.)

> *QUESTION 2*
> Why does recording a segment something in Rosegarden change the settings
> I made in Zyn?
 >
> More worryingly, from that point on, I can choose what I want in Zyn,
> but I'm still playing the 'Arpeggio1' instrument. I'm getting sick of it ;)

I can't make up my mind which of two possible things is going wrong for you.

The easy one is to make sure Rosegarden is using #5 for the thing you 
have told ZynAddSubFX to play on channel 5, etc.

I will reserve writing about the harder one for another time.

> *BONUS QUESTION*
> Now, this will probably be idiotic, but I need to ask this. Can I
> somehow just play General MIDI instruments? Is this done by Timidity? I
> fired it up but it doesn't show in the 'Audio' menu of Jack, so I can't
> tell it to output any sound to the system.

You've already gotten advice on using DSSI synth plugins.  Personally, I 
prefer using QSynth externally.  I have it set up with three engines, 
each with a different, dedicated soundfont, and that thing has been 
running for months.  I forgot it was there.  It's all down to personal 
preference in any case.

-- 
D. Michael McIntyre

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Re: [Rosegarden-user] Holger's suggestion

[D. Michael McIntyre]

On 01/10/2016 06:30 AM, Leszek Wroński wrote:
> The 'details' section informs me "WARNING: using
> system timer with only 250Hz resolution!"

sudo dpkg -l linux-image-lowlatency linux-headers-lowlatency

(You typically only need the headers if you run hardware with 
proprietary drivers, like the non-free NVIDIA drivers.)

Reboot.

That will fix your timer resolution problem.

> I have an Intel Core i3-3220 CPU @ 3.30GHz × 4 PC with 8 GBs of RAM. I
> didn't think I'd have CPU problems, but well, maybe that expectation was
> wrong.

I have gotten Rosegarden and several supporting applications running on 
a laptop that cuts most of those specs in half.  That machine should 
give you a lot of power to spare.

If it doesn't seem like you have enough CPU, that's because you have an 
optimization/configuration/setup problem, not because your machine is 
inadequate.
-- 
D. Michael McIntyre

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Re: [Rosegarden-user] the Zyn tutorial; and praise

[Leszek Wroński]

I just want to say that while I have now, thanks to Holger's suggestions,
managed to get the basic functionality I had initially wanted, I'm still
very much interested in what I was doing wrong with respect to the
connection with ZynAddSubFX. If you do find some time to respond, I'd be
very grateful.

I'll eventually be editing some scores with Lilypond which I want to
transcribe using MIDI from a copy of a manuscript. At this moment I can
tell that, in regular (non-rt-kernel) 14.04 Ubuntu, Rosegarden's MIDI
record option with a posteriori quantization is miles better than what
Finale 2012 (I haven't upgraded yet, since I moved to Lilypond) offers in
Windows 7. That is, I recorded a line with a lot of triplets, and while it
initially displayed incorrectly (of course), using Rosegarden's
quantization function with the 'triplet' option transformed it into a
perfect copy (pitch- and note-duration-wise) of the manuscript. That's the
first time I've seen something like this. Fantastic!

Cheers,

Leszek.

From: "D. Michael McIntyre" 
To: rosegarden-user@lists.sourceforge.net
Cc:
Date: Sat, 9 Jan 2016 17:12:35 -0500
Subject: Re: [Rosegarden-user] problem with basic functionality (tracks,
instruments, ZynAddSubFX connection)
On 01/09/2016 01:19 PM, Leszek Wroński wrote:

My first modest goal is to successfully go through this tutorial:
> http://www.rosegardenmusic.com/tutorials/supplemental/zyn/zyn.html
>

I will go through all of this with you when I get the time.  I sat down to
do it here and now, but this is going to be somewhat involved, and I have a
very long day of work ahead of me.  I have to go deal with that and recover
before I will have the energy to help.  It will probably be a day or longer
before I get back to you, but I will.
-- 
D. Michael McIntyre
--
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Re: [Rosegarden-user] Holger's suggestion

[Holger Marzen]

On Sun, 10 Jan 2016, Leszek Wroński wrote:

> Thank you very much again. Indeed Rosegarden displays a warning and tells
> me to run 'sudo modprobe snd-rtctimer'. Unfortunately, I don't have that
> module. I ran 'sudo modprobe snd-hrtimer' instead, but the warning still
> appears. The 'details' section informs me "WARNING: using system timer with
> only 250Hz resolution!"

That means that you use a standard kernel, not a low latency kernel.
There are 3 classes of kernels:

- standard for servers and desktops, usually with 250 HZ
- lowlatency kernels, usually with 1000 HZ
- realtime kernel, rocket science from outer space

Realtime kernels may be the kernels of choice when seeking for lowest
possible latencies for live use with a superfast interface.

I use and recommend lowlatency kernels. No rocket science. Just install
a lowlatency kernel. It's usually in the repository of your distribution
with "lowlatency" in its name.

Install, boot this kernel, enjoy.--
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Re: [Rosegarden-user] Holger's suggestion

[Leszek Wroński]

Thank you very much again. Indeed Rosegarden displays a warning and tells
me to run 'sudo modprobe snd-rtctimer'. Unfortunately, I don't have that
module. I ran 'sudo modprobe snd-hrtimer' instead, but the warning still
appears. The 'details' section informs me "WARNING: using system timer with
only 250Hz resolution!"

I have an Intel Core i3-3220 CPU @ 3.30GHz × 4 PC with 8 GBs of RAM. I
didn't think I'd have CPU problems, but well, maybe that expectation was
wrong.

Still, now that I have the instruments set up, everytime I load up my file
the sound works properly and MIDI recording does too.

I will use you recommendation regarding JACK from now on.

Cheers,

Leszek.

On 10 January 2016 at 11:58, Holger Marzen  wrote:

> On Sun, 10 Jan 2016, Leszek Wroński wrote:
>
> > Thank you very much. Using the 'manage synth plugins' window I load the
> > FluidSynth DSSI plugin. Then using the editor I locate the soundfont and
> > choose the instrument. Then I can play and record with it with no
> problems.
> >
> > However issues start when I want to use a different instrument in a
> > different track. I hope the intended functionality is that I can click.
> say
> > on Track 1, and my keyboard will play the instrument associated with
> Track
> > 1, and when I click on Track 2, pressing the keys will play the
> instrument
> > associated with Track 2. So I want to have two different instruments from
> > the same soundfont associated with different tracks. The only way I was
> > able to do it was to load in the 'Manage Synth Plugins' menu the
> > Fluid-Synth DSSI plugin TWICE, for rows "1" and "2", and then load the
> > soundfont TWICE. I guess that's not the way to do this, since it's so
> > inefficient -- so how does one do this properly?
>
> I do it exactly that way. I have even the same soundfont in different
> tracks, because I want to mix, pan and process them idepently. No reverb
> for the kick drum, reverb for the snare and the toms.
>
> > But the bigger problem is, once I have one copy of the plugin doing its
> > magic for Track 1, and another working its tricks for Track 2, so that
> the
> > instruments I hear really change when I click the different tracks, then
> > all the sounds are crackled. When I save the *.rg file, exit the program,
> > relaunch and load it again, the sound is fine. How can I avoid doing this
> > all the time?
>
> I never experienced this. Maybe it's some kind of CPU problem, running
> on the limit. Do you have "RT" values (bottom of the Rosegarden window)
> bigger than 50? Try to double jackd's -p value (period size).
>
> > Now, I'm trying to avoid using Jack to make connections at all. Not using
> > any standalone synth, it seems that to hear anything, I need to connect,
> in
> > the 'MIDI Playback' menu 'Rosegarden playback device' to MIDI Through. Is
> > that right?
>
> The sounds that are produced by synth plugins go to audio connections,
> not MIDI connections. If you have no other programs or hardware that
> needs MIDI data then don't mind about Rosegarden's MIDI out, only audio.
>
> I recommend:
> - Start jackd manually, e.g. via Qjackctl or a shell script
> - Configure Rosegarden in Edit -> Preferences -> Audio
>   uncheck "Start JACK automatically"
>   check "Make default JACK connections for audio outputs"
>
> Regards
> Holger
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Re: [Rosegarden-user] Holger's suggestion

[Holger Marzen]

On Sun, 10 Jan 2016, Leszek Wroński wrote:

> Thank you very much. Using the 'manage synth plugins' window I load the
> FluidSynth DSSI plugin. Then using the editor I locate the soundfont and
> choose the instrument. Then I can play and record with it with no problems.
> 
> However issues start when I want to use a different instrument in a
> different track. I hope the intended functionality is that I can click. say
> on Track 1, and my keyboard will play the instrument associated with Track
> 1, and when I click on Track 2, pressing the keys will play the instrument
> associated with Track 2. So I want to have two different instruments from
> the same soundfont associated with different tracks. The only way I was
> able to do it was to load in the 'Manage Synth Plugins' menu the
> Fluid-Synth DSSI plugin TWICE, for rows "1" and "2", and then load the
> soundfont TWICE. I guess that's not the way to do this, since it's so
> inefficient -- so how does one do this properly?

I do it exactly that way. I have even the same soundfont in different
tracks, because I want to mix, pan and process them idepently. No reverb
for the kick drum, reverb for the snare and the toms.

> But the bigger problem is, once I have one copy of the plugin doing its
> magic for Track 1, and another working its tricks for Track 2, so that the
> instruments I hear really change when I click the different tracks, then
> all the sounds are crackled. When I save the *.rg file, exit the program,
> relaunch and load it again, the sound is fine. How can I avoid doing this
> all the time?

I never experienced this. Maybe it's some kind of CPU problem, running
on the limit. Do you have "RT" values (bottom of the Rosegarden window)
bigger than 50? Try to double jackd's -p value (period size).

> Now, I'm trying to avoid using Jack to make connections at all. Not using
> any standalone synth, it seems that to hear anything, I need to connect, in
> the 'MIDI Playback' menu 'Rosegarden playback device' to MIDI Through. Is
> that right?

The sounds that are produced by synth plugins go to audio connections,
not MIDI connections. If you have no other programs or hardware that
needs MIDI data then don't mind about Rosegarden's MIDI out, only audio.

I recommend:
- Start jackd manually, e.g. via Qjackctl or a shell script
- Configure Rosegarden in Edit -> Preferences -> Audio
  uncheck "Start JACK automatically"
  check "Make default JACK connections for audio outputs"

Regards
Holger--
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Re: [Rosegarden-user] Holger's suggestion

[Leszek Wroński]

Thank you very much. Using the 'manage synth plugins' window I load the
FluidSynth DSSI plugin. Then using the editor I locate the soundfont and
choose the instrument. Then I can play and record with it with no problems.

However issues start when I want to use a different instrument in a
different track. I hope the intended functionality is that I can click. say
on Track 1, and my keyboard will play the instrument associated with Track
1, and when I click on Track 2, pressing the keys will play the instrument
associated with Track 2. So I want to have two different instruments from
the same soundfont associated with different tracks. The only way I was
able to do it was to load in the 'Manage Synth Plugins' menu the
Fluid-Synth DSSI plugin TWICE, for rows "1" and "2", and then load the
soundfont TWICE. I guess that's not the way to do this, since it's so
inefficient -- so how does one do this properly?

But the bigger problem is, once I have one copy of the plugin doing its
magic for Track 1, and another working its tricks for Track 2, so that the
instruments I hear really change when I click the different tracks, then
all the sounds are crackled. When I save the *.rg file, exit the program,
relaunch and load it again, the sound is fine. How can I avoid doing this
all the time?

Now, I'm trying to avoid using Jack to make connections at all. Not using
any standalone synth, it seems that to hear anything, I need to connect, in
the 'MIDI Playback' menu 'Rosegarden playback device' to MIDI Through. Is
that right?

Thank you very much again,

Leszek.


> I recommend installing and loading fluidsynth-dssi into a
> Rosegarden-track of type "Synthesizer Plugin". Then load a GM soundfont
> into fluidsynth. Most distributions offer the package
> fluid-soundfont-gm, a very good soundfont that resides in
> /usr/share/sounds/sf2/FluidR3_GM.sf2 after installation.
>
> Using the plugin makes it simple to save the settings with your song and
> offers as low latency as possible.
>
> You can find other good soundfonts all over the web.
>
> Regards
> Holger
>
>
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Re: [Rosegarden-user] problem with basic functionality (tracks, instruments, ZynAddSubFX connection)

[Holger Marzen]

On Sat, 9 Jan 2016, david wrote:

> On 01/09/2016 08:54 AM, Holger Marzen wrote:
> > On Sat, 9 Jan 2016, Leszek Wroński wrote:
> >
> >> *BONUS QUESTION*
> >> Now, this will probably be idiotic, but I need to ask this. Can I somehow
> >> just play General MIDI instruments? Is this done by Timidity? I fired it up
> >> but it doesn't show in the 'Audio' menu of Jack, so I can't tell it to
> >> output any sound to the system.
> >
> > I recommend installing and loading fluidsynth-dssi into a
> > Rosegarden-track of type "Synthesizer Plugin". Then load a GM soundfont
> > into fluidsynth. Most distributions offer the package
> > fluid-soundfont-gm, a very good soundfont that resides in
> > /usr/share/sounds/sf2/FluidR3_GM.sf2 after installation.
> >
> > Using the plugin makes it simple to save the settings with your song and
> > offers as low latency as possible.
> >
> > You can find other good soundfonts all over the web.
> 
> Not the original poster, but thanks for the advice about fluidsynth-dssi. :)

For those who do not know yet: This song
https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=16&v=qFDa-_6dUOU
was made only with plugins:
- FluidSynth-DSSI for bass, strings, drums, chimes, sleigh bells
- Hexter and Whysynth (both DSSI) for the rest
- All effects like reverb and echo as LADSPA plugins in Rosegarden

The only external program was Jamin for mastering (shown at 3:41).--
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