Re: [sage-devel] Re: [sage-release] Re: Sage 9.5 released

[Matthias Koeppe]

An update: The latest version of the installation manual 
(from https://trac.sagemath.org/ticket/33655) is available 
here: 
https://7896a56df78170d5bab0f306d1a7230986a4206a--sagemath-tobias.netlify.app/installation/index.html

Thanks to everyone for their input.

On Tuesday, April 26, 2022 at 12:43:18 PM UTC-7 Matthias Koeppe wrote:

> On Friday, April 22, 2022 at 10:53:50 AM UTC-7 Matthias Koeppe wrote:
>
>> steer users to using conda-forge. 
>>
>
> An update: Now https://www.sagemath.org/ also has a menu item "Download | 
> Linux/macOS 
> binaries (conda-forge) 
> 
> "
>
> (Thanks, Harald, for merging my PR 
> https://github.com/sagemath/website/pull/239)
>
>  
>

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Re: [sage-devel] [sage-release] Re: Sage 9.5 released

[Michael Orlitzky]

On Tue, 2022-04-26 at 16:41 -0700, Matthias Koeppe wrote:
> 
> The same is also standard practice in the Python world. In modern Python 
> packaging, there is no such thing as a build-time optional dependency. The 
> build environment is fully specified in pyproject.toml. Additional 
> functionality can be provided by "extras-require" declarations -- which are 
> handled only at installation time (not build time) simply by installing 
> additional packages. Python code discovers them at runtime.
> 

Using python packaging for sage components is not a foregone
conclusion, and this is a great argument against using it. All python
packaging is a joke, and pip is not a package manager. We are making
sage worse to achieve feature-parity with a bad system.

We've had multiple tickets open for a real solution. Recently #14834
and #29119 come to mind.


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[sage-devel] We need 1237 more functions to get to 99% coverage.

[ph h]

~/sage-9.6/git/rc2$ sage.mod/sage --coverageall
__init__.py: 100.0% (1 of 1)
algebras/affine_nil_temperley_lieb.py: 100.0% (11 of 11)
algebras/algebra.py: 100.0% (1 of 1)
algebras/askey_wilson.py: 100.0% (21 of 21)
algebras/associated_graded.py: 100.0% (9 of 9)
algebras/cellular_basis.py: 100.0% (9 of 9)
algebras/clifford_algebra.py: 100.0% (64 of 64)
algebras/cluster_algebra.py: 100.0% (82 of 82)
algebras/commutative_dga.py: 100.0% (86 of 86)
...
...
...
typeset/character_art.py: 100.0% (20 of 20)
typeset/character_art_factory.py: 100.0% (12 of 12)
typeset/symbols.py: 100.0% (6 of 6)
typeset/unicode_art.py: 100.0% (3 of 3)

Overall weighted coverage score: 96.7%
Total number of functions: 53125
We need 1237 more functions to get to 99% coverage.

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[sage-devel] download-for-sdist: command not found

[ph h]

Cloning into '/home/hph/sage-9.6/git/rc2/sage.mod/tmp/sage-9.6.rc2'...
done.
Updating files: 100% (9399/9399), done.
Enumerating objects: 841207, done.
Counting objects: 100% (841207/841207), done.
Delta compression using up to 8 threads
Compressing objects: 100% (801365/801365), done.
Writing objects: 100% (841207/841207), done.
Total 841207 (delta 671090), reused 160806 (delta 0)
Expanding reachable commits in commit graph: 104080, done.
Finished cloning Sage sources
/home/hph/sage-9.6/git/rc2/sage.mod/build/bin/sage-sdist: line 50: 
download-for-sdist: command not found

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Re: [sage-devel] [sage-release] Re: Sage 9.5 released

[Matthias Koeppe]

On Tuesday, April 26, 2022 at 4:07:00 PM UTC-7 François Bissey wrote:

> From what I can see on debian, they try to build for pretty much any 
> options they have available, and those runtime dependencies have to be 
> installed and be included in the dependency tree for that distribution’s 
> binary.
>

This is certainly true for shared libraries that are linked into 
executables.
But many packages allow for extra functionality either by the presence of 
plugins or just by calling some executables.
Such packages are declared as Recommended or Suggested packages and are 
usually discovered at runtime.

The same is also standard practice in the Python world. In modern Python 
packaging, there is no such thing as a build-time optional dependency. The 
build environment is fully specified in pyproject.toml. Additional 
functionality can be provided by "extras-require" declarations -- which are 
handled only at installation time (not build time) simply by installing 
additional packages. Python code discovers them at runtime.


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Re: [sage-devel] Re: [sage-release] Re: Sage 9.5 released

[Matthias Koeppe]

On Tuesday, April 26, 2022 at 5:22:28 AM UTC-7 seb@gmail.com wrote:

> I think someone visiting our web-page the first time will rather push the 
> *big 
> blue button Download 9.5* instead of going to the download menu 
> especially if he wants to be sure to get the current release. This launches 
> this 
> page .
>
> Thanks. https://github.com/sagemath/website/pull/240 updates the Download 
button and the links next to it.

 

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Re: [sage-devel] [sage-release] Re: Sage 9.5 released

[François Bissey]

Well binary packages are not so well known in Gentoo. But in any case, your 
argument about source distribution applies pretty much to all distro package 
maintainers. At some point they have to choose which options they will enable 
in the build, binary or otherwise, they distribute.

>From what I can see on debian, they try to build for pretty much any options 
>they have available, and those runtime dependencies have to be installed and 
>be included in the dependency tree for that distribution’s binary. Binaries do 
>not magically appear, someone has to build them, a source distribution just 
>make the building the user problem by default, but all distributions have 
>build recipes that you can use yourself if you so wish.

> On 27/04/2022, at 10:56, Matthias Koeppe  wrote:
> 
> On Tuesday, April 26, 2022 at 3:53:46 PM UTC-7 Michael Orlitzky wrote:
> By the same reasoning, Gentoo isn't source-based, 
> because you have the option of installing pre-built binary packages 
> with the default set of options.
> 
> Oh, I didn't know. Haven't met a Gentoo user, only Gentoo developers.
>  
> 
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Re: [sage-devel] Re: [sage-release] Re: Sage 9.5 released

[Matthias Koeppe]

On Tuesday, April 26, 2022 at 3:53:46 PM UTC-7 Michael Orlitzky wrote:

> By the same reasoning, Gentoo isn't source-based, 
> because you have the option of installing pre-built binary packages 
> with the default set of options.
>

Oh, I didn't know. Haven't met a Gentoo user, only Gentoo developers.
 

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Re: [sage-devel] Re: [sage-release] Re: Sage 9.5 released

[Michael Orlitzky]

On Tue, 2022-04-26 at 15:12 -0700, Matthias Koeppe wrote:
> On Tuesday, April 26, 2022 at 2:07:40 PM UTC-7 Michael Orlitzky wrote:
> 
> > On Tue, 2022-04-26 at 12:20 -0700, Matthias Koeppe wrote: 
> > > This makes no sense on any distribution other than build-from-source 
> > > distributions like gentoo. 
> > 
> > Homebrew, Conda, and sage itself are all source-based.
> 
> 
> Of the three, only Sage is a source-based distribution. 
> 

That's a stretch. By the same reasoning, Gentoo isn't source-based,
because you have the option of installing pre-built binary packages
with the default set of options. The need for source-based builds in
this context is precisely when someone hasn't thought to make a binary
package for your architecture/CPU/libc/whatever ahead of time.

Regardless, there is also Nix, but sage itself should be reason enough
to choose the better approach.

Finally, upon reflection, I fail to see how this is an issue specific
to source-based distributions. All four of the problems I listed also
affect binary distributions, and the solution in Trac #30746 should
work almost as well there. For example, installing "ffmpeg" on Debian
would not automatically enable ffmpeg within sage, but installing
"sage-ffmpeg" would add the pkg-config file and thereby enable it. That
leaves problem (1) up to the maintainer -- whether or not he wants to
add a dependency on sage-ffmpeg to sage itself -- but handily solves
the other three.

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[sage-devel] sage --advanced

[ph h]

Dear All,

Please advise which of the "sage --advanced" should be used to 
test  "Refactor":

   1. After git checkout
   2. After 'make configure'
   3. After './configure'
   4. After 'make'

Some practical use case scenario, where applicable, is much appreciated.

For your convenience, the advanced options are appended below.

Regards,

phiho

SageMath version 9.6.rc2, Release Date: 2022-04-25

Running Sage, the most common options:

  file.[sage|py|spyx] -- run given .sage, .py or .spyx file
  -h, -?, --help  -- print a short help message
  -v, --version   -- print the Sage version
  --advanced  -- print this list of Sage options
  -c cmd  -- evaluate cmd as sage code. For example,
 "sage -c 'print(factor(35))'" will
 print "5 * 7".

Running Sage, other options:

  --dumpversion   -- print brief Sage version
  --preparse file.sage -- preparse "file.sage", and produce
  the corresponding Python file
  "file.sage.py"
  -q  -- quiet; start with no banner
  --min   -- do not populate global namespace
 (must be first option)
  --nodotsage -- run Sage without using the user's
 .sage directory: create and use a temporary
 .sage directory instead.
  --gthread, --qthread, --q4thread, --wthread, --pylab
  -- pass the option through to IPython
  --simple-prompt -- pass the option through to IPython: use
 this option with sage-shell mode in emacs
  --grep [options] 
  -- regular expression search through the Sage
 library for "string". Any options will
 get passed to the "grep" command.
  --grepdoc [options] 
  -- regular expression search through the
 Sage documentation for "string".
  --search_src ...-- same as --grep
  --search_doc ...-- same as --grepdoc

Running external programs:

  --cython [...]  -- run Cython with the given arguments
  --ecl [...], --lisp [...]  -- run Sage's copy of ECL (Embeddable
Common Lisp) with the given arguments
  --gap [...] -- run Sage's Gap with the given arguments
  --gap3 [...]-- run Sage's Gap3 with the given arguments
 (not installed currently, run sage -i gap3)
  --gdb   -- run Sage under the control of gdb
  --gdb-ipython   -- run Sage's IPython under the control of gdb
  --git [...] -- run Sage's Git with the given arguments
  --gp [...]  -- run Sage's PARI/GP calculator with the
 given arguments
  --ipython [...], --ipython3 [...]
  -- run Sage's IPython using the default
 environment (not Sage), passing additional
 additional options to IPython
  --jupyter [...] -- run Sage's Jupyter with given arguments
  --kash [...]-- run Sage's Kash with the given arguments
 (not installed currently, run sage -i kash)
  --M2 [...]  -- run Sage's Macaulay2 with the given arguments
 (not installed currently, run sage -i macaulay2)
  --maxima [...]  -- run Sage's Maxima with the given arguments
  --mwrank [...]  -- run Sage's mwrank with the given arguments
  --pip [...] -- invoke pip, the Python package manager
  --polymake [...]-- run Sage's Polymake with given arguments
  --python [...], --python3 [...]
  -- run the Python 3 interpreter
  -R [...]-- run Sage's R with the given arguments
  --singular [...]-- run Sage's singular with the given arguments
  --sqlite3 [...] -- run Sage's sqlite3 with given arguments

Running the notebook:

  -n [...], --notebook=[...]
  -- start the notebook; valid options include
 'default', 'jupyter', 'jupyterlab', and 'export'.
 Current default is 'jupyter'.
 Run "sage --notebook --help" for more details.

Testing files:

  -t [options]  -- test examples in .py, .pyx, .sage
  or .tex files.  Options:
 --long   -- include lines with the phrase 'long time'
 --verbose-- print debugging output during the test
 --all-- test all files
 --optional   -- also test all examples labeled "# optional"
 --only-optional[=tags]
  -- if no 'tags' are specified, only run
 blocks of tests containing a line labeled
 "# optional". If a comma-separated
 list of tags is specified, only run block
 containing a line labeled "# optional tag"
 for any 

[sage-devel] make ptestlong: more than 8 cores?

[G. M.-S.]

It seems to me that make ptestlong does not use more than 8 cores, even if
MAKE="make -j20"
and there are 10 cores available.

This is not the case for make, where all 10 cores are at 100% most of the
time.

Am I missing something?

Guillermo

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Re: [sage-devel] Re: [sage-release] Re: Sage 9.5 released

[Matthias Koeppe]

On Tuesday, April 26, 2022 at 2:07:40 PM UTC-7 Michael Orlitzky wrote:

> On Tue, 2022-04-26 at 12:20 -0700, Matthias Koeppe wrote: 
> > This makes no sense on any distribution other than build-from-source 
> > distributions like gentoo. 
>
> Homebrew, Conda, and sage itself are all source-based.


Of the three, only Sage is a source-based distribution. 

homebrew is primarily a binary distribution. Users install "bottles". 
See 
https://docs.brew.sh/FAQ#why-should-i-install-homebrew-in-the-default-location, 
and users are actively discouraged to report failures that happen when 
building from source.

conda-forge is also primarily a binary distribution. They have a 
sophisticated build process that builds binaries on 
Azure. 
https://conda-forge.org/docs/maintainer/infrastructure.html#azure-pipelines

That's exactly why we are increasingly promoting the use of conda-forge for 
installing Sage. Installation is very fast exactly because users install 
prebuilt packages.




 

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Re: [sage-devel] Build-alert!

[Ray Rogers]

Done rc2; no problems
Although I haven't done the long test; perhaps tonight.
Looking forward to the release :)

On 4/26/22 07:35, Dima Pasechnik wrote:

Thanks - in fact, we're very close to releasing 9.6.
Testing release candidates, a.k.a. 'rc' (or betas, whether is fresher)
is much more important.
See https://www.sagemath.org/download-latest.html
(or you can clone from GitHub: https://github.com/sagemath/sage)

Chances are that what you see in 9.5 is no longer relevant - as it's
probably fixed already.

On Tue, Apr 26, 2022 at 11:45 AM Raymond Rogers
 wrote:


Hi, On a fresh download/configure/make for 9.5; I got a message; to send
error to sage-devel@googlegroups.com

It actually seemed to trundle on okay.
build-deve.log   is terminal clip. of the make request
The others are what  I think are relevant/asked for.

./sage
./sage --notebook
seem to run, So I presume it's some functionality (some "container"?)
that's missing.
This is just a backup computer (with 8GB ram) , so there is no urgency.

Ray

Release 20.04.4 LTS (Focal Fossa) 64-bit
Kernel Linux 5.4.0-109-generic x86_64
MATE 1.24.0

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Re: [sage-devel] Re: [sage-release] Re: Sage 9.5 released

[Michael Orlitzky]

On Tue, 2022-04-26 at 12:20 -0700, Matthias Koeppe wrote:
> 
> This makes no sense on any distribution other than build-from-source 
> distributions like gentoo.
>  

Homebrew, Conda, and sage itself are all source-based.

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Re: [sage-devel] Re: [sage-release] Re: Sage 9.5 released

[Matthias Koeppe]

On Friday, April 22, 2022 at 10:53:50 AM UTC-7 Matthias Koeppe wrote:

> steer users to using conda-forge. 
>

An update: Now https://www.sagemath.org/ also has a menu item "Download | 
Linux/macOS 
binaries (conda-forge) 

"

(Thanks, Harald, for merging my PR 
https://github.com/sagemath/website/pull/239)

 

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Re: [sage-devel] Re: [sage-release] Re: Sage 9.5 released

[Matthias Koeppe]

On Tuesday, April 26, 2022 at 11:34:50 AM UTC-7 Michael Orlitzky wrote:

> This generally makes packaging harder if the optional thing affects the 
> existing sage installation. Distribution packages should know all of 
> their dependencies at install-time.
>

This makes no sense on any distribution other than build-from-source 
distributions like gentoo.
 

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Re: [sage-devel] Re: [sage-release] Re: Sage 9.5 released

[Matthias Koeppe]

On Tuesday, April 26, 2022 at 5:15:51 AM UTC-7 kcrisman wrote:

> 4. A link to some Windows doc on what WSL is would probably be pretty 
> helpful, since presumably a lot of Windows users who like doing math have 
> never heard of it.
>

Thanks, I've added a bit (adapting from something that was already in the 
Install from Source section).
 

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Re: [sage-devel] Re: [sage-release] Re: Sage 9.5 released

[Matthias Koeppe]

On Tuesday, April 26, 2022 at 5:15:51 AM UTC-7 kcrisman wrote:

> Below a few minor notes about the sagemath-tobias link [...]
>
> 1. Is it possible to have a short bullet list for the three/four options
> * Linux
> * Mac
> * Windoze
> * Cloud
> that link to those, immediately below "Where would you like to run 
> SageMath?"?  I'm pretty sure Sphinx makes that possible.  Even a little bit 
> of needed scrolling leads to people just not caring.
>

I have now made the 4 options subsections, so a Table of Contents shows up 
in the margin now.
 

> 2. I'd also recommend Linux be last
>

Good idea, done. This also flows better because the WSL method sends users 
to read there.


 

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Re: [sage-devel] Re: [sage-release] Re: Sage 9.5 released

[Matthias Koeppe]

On Tuesday, April 26, 2022 at 11:46:57 AM UTC-7 Thierry 
(sage-googlesucks@xxx) wrote:

> If setting up a new build infrastructure solves an actual issue


It doesn't.
 

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Re: [sage-devel] Re: [sage-release] Re: Sage 9.5 released

[Matthias Koeppe]

On Tuesday, April 26, 2022 at 5:22:28 AM UTC-7 seb@gmail.com wrote:

> I agree, we should update our documentation to warn people about wildly 
> outdated distribution packages on outdated OS distributions, and steer 
> users to using conda-forge.
>
> I would have expected that the *no root access* question comes first and 
> perhaps reads like this: *no root access or older OS distribution*.
>
Thanks, I've made this change.

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Re: [sage-devel] Re: [sage-release] Re: Sage 9.5 released

[Thierry]

On Tue, Apr 26, 2022 at 11:32:03AM -0700, Matthias Koeppe wrote:
> On Tuesday, April 26, 2022 at 11:25:39 AM UTC-7 Thierry 
> (sage-googlesucks@xxx) wrote:
> 
> > On Tue, Apr 26, 2022 at 11:19:52AM -0700, Matthias Koeppe wrote: 
> > > Marc Culler's macOS binary packaging gets it right -- he just builds all 
> > > optional packages that happen to build without errors and includes them 
> > in 
> > > the binary package. It does not increase the overall size by much. 
> >
> > Why not shipping binaries with and without optional packages on the 
> > mirrors for all distros ?
> >
> 
> Let's not go back to providing binaries. Nobody took care of them for 
> years: They were being built routinely as part of Volker's scripts, but 
> nobody bothered to check that they actually work.

I lost interest in building tons of binaries because there was an
alternative, and i agree that anything we set up should be taken care
of. If setting up a new build infrastructure solves an actual issue,
then why not ?

Ciao,
Thierry



> 
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Re: [sage-devel] Re: [sage-release] Re: Sage 9.5 released

[Matthias Koeppe]

Note that we already generate this "apt-get install" line for the 
documentation (see 
https://doc.sagemath.org/html/en/installation/source.html#linux-recommended-installation).
Unfortunately the writing in this section of the manual is not very good 
and would need help to be improved. 
This could be done as part of https://trac.sagemath.org/ticket/33662 -- 
help needed!


On Tuesday, April 26, 2022 at 11:37:14 AM UTC-7 Matthias Koeppe wrote:

> On Tuesday, April 26, 2022 at 10:14:57 AM UTC-7 Eric Gourgoulhon wrote:
>
>> Le mardi 26 avril 2022 à 14:22:28 UTC+2, seb@gmail.com a écrit :
>>
>>> several Linux distributions carry reasonably up to date binary Sage 
>>> installations (and these can be installed on various VMs, e.g. on Windows’ 
>>> WSL, ChromeOS’ Crostini, etc)
>>>
>>> For example current LinuxMint and WSL are both on Ubuntu 20.04 LTS which 
>>> gives you Sage 9.0 (as in the example I’ve mentioned above). To get Sage 
>>> 9.5 you need Ubuntu 22.04 (I guess not very widespread at the moment). My 
>>> point is the following: until we discontinued the binary tarballs, the 
>>> straight ahead way to a Sage installation for Ubuntu systems lead you to 
>>> the current release. This is broken, now.
>>>
>> To avoid repeating the same advice to people asking how to install Sage 
>> 9.5 in Ubuntu in  a *simple* way, I've prepared the following page, which 
>> has been improved by Samuel Lelièvre: 
>> [1] https://sagemanifolds.obspm.fr/install_ubuntu.html
>> I've already got testimony of persons not familiar with bash commands 
>> (not speaking about building from source) who could succeed in installing 
>> Sage 9.5 in Ubuntu 20.04 by following these simple instructions. Of course, 
>> this is somehow redundant with Sage's installation guide or README.md, but 
>> this provides the minimal required steps, without having to read the full 
>> installation guide.
>>
>
> These are nice instructions. As they are version-specific and need to be 
> updated after a release is made (because it's referring to the distribution 
> packaging of the same version!), it could be added to the ReleaseTour for 
> the version.
> (
> https://wiki.sagemath.org/ReleaseTours/sage-9.5#Availability_as_binaries_and_in_distributions
> )
>
>
>

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Re: [sage-devel] Re: [sage-release] Re: Sage 9.5 released

[Matthias Koeppe]

On Tuesday, April 26, 2022 at 10:14:57 AM UTC-7 Eric Gourgoulhon wrote:

> Le mardi 26 avril 2022 à 14:22:28 UTC+2, seb@gmail.com a écrit :
>
>> several Linux distributions carry reasonably up to date binary Sage 
>> installations (and these can be installed on various VMs, e.g. on Windows’ 
>> WSL, ChromeOS’ Crostini, etc)
>>
>> For example current LinuxMint and WSL are both on Ubuntu 20.04 LTS which 
>> gives you Sage 9.0 (as in the example I’ve mentioned above). To get Sage 
>> 9.5 you need Ubuntu 22.04 (I guess not very widespread at the moment). My 
>> point is the following: until we discontinued the binary tarballs, the 
>> straight ahead way to a Sage installation for Ubuntu systems lead you to 
>> the current release. This is broken, now.
>>
> To avoid repeating the same advice to people asking how to install Sage 
> 9.5 in Ubuntu in  a *simple* way, I've prepared the following page, which 
> has been improved by Samuel Lelièvre: 
> [1] https://sagemanifolds.obspm.fr/install_ubuntu.html
> I've already got testimony of persons not familiar with bash commands (not 
> speaking about building from source) who could succeed in installing Sage 
> 9.5 in Ubuntu 20.04 by following these simple instructions. Of course, this 
> is somehow redundant with Sage's installation guide or README.md, but this 
> provides the minimal required steps, without having to read the full 
> installation guide.
>

These are nice instructions. As they are version-specific and need to be 
updated after a release is made (because it's referring to the distribution 
packaging of the same version!), it could be added to the ReleaseTour for 
the version.
(https://wiki.sagemath.org/ReleaseTours/sage-9.5#Availability_as_binaries_and_in_distributions)


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Re: [sage-devel] Re: [sage-release] Re: Sage 9.5 released

[Michael Orlitzky]

On Tue, 2022-04-26 at 10:26 -0700, Nils Bruin wrote:
> 
> If packaging is going to play a more important role in the distribution of 
> sage, I think we need to make a distinction between build-time optional 
> packages and packages that can be installed after sage has been built. And 
> ideally we'd make as many as possible installable after build.

This generally makes packaging harder if the optional thing affects the
existing sage installation. Distribution packages should know all of
their dependencies at install-time. Additional things not declared as
dependencies that "automagically" [0] enable some new behavior violate
that, leading to problems:

  1. What the user would consider dependencies are not declared as such
 and can be "surprise" removed by the package manager.

  2. There's no way to disable the behavior change if you didn't enable
 it in the first place.

  3. General confusion when the user installs an optional thing for 
 some other unrelated purpose and his sage starts acting funny.

  4. Repeated runtime detection of features is (repeatedly) slower than
 build-time detection.

It's a headache for sage-the-distribution as well. Many hours were
wasted working around system executable issues when the new runtime
"feature" detection started to forcefully use them, and they still
suffer from the problems above.

I outlined a solution in Trac 30746 [1] that should avoid most of those
problems. It mainly requires admitting that automagic feature detection
has been tried repeatedly and turns out to be a dead-end.


[0]https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Project:Quality_Assurance/Automagic_dependencies
[1]https://trac.sagemath.org/ticket/30746

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Re: [sage-devel] Re: [sage-release] Re: Sage 9.5 released

[Matthias Koeppe]

On Tuesday, April 26, 2022 at 11:25:39 AM UTC-7 Thierry 
(sage-googlesucks@xxx) wrote:

> On Tue, Apr 26, 2022 at 11:19:52AM -0700, Matthias Koeppe wrote: 
> > Marc Culler's macOS binary packaging gets it right -- he just builds all 
> > optional packages that happen to build without errors and includes them 
> in 
> > the binary package. It does not increase the overall size by much. 
>
> Why not shipping binaries with and without optional packages on the 
> mirrors for all distros ?
>

Let's not go back to providing binaries. Nobody took care of them for 
years: They were being built routinely as part of Volker's scripts, but 
nobody bothered to check that they actually work.


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Re: [sage-devel] Re: [sage-release] Re: Sage 9.5 released

[Matthias Koeppe]

On Tuesday, April 26, 2022 at 5:15:51 AM UTC-7 kcrisman wrote:

> 4. A link to some Windows doc on what WSL is would probably be pretty 
> helpful, since presumably a lot of Windows users who like doing math have 
> never heard of it.
>

We have a bunch of tickets that propose to improve the WSL documentation 
- https://trac.sagemath.org/ticket/31156
- https://trac.sagemath.org/ticket/30484
There's a lack of momentum there to actually write the documentation.


 

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Re: [sage-devel] Re: [sage-release] Re: Sage 9.5 released

[Thierry]

On Tue, Apr 26, 2022 at 11:19:52AM -0700, Matthias Koeppe wrote:
> On Tuesday, April 26, 2022 at 10:26:59 AM UTC-7 Nils Bruin wrote:
> 
> > If we're going to allow for/promote packaging as an easy way to get access 
> > to sage, I think we need to reevaluate how we provide optional packages as 
> > well. Currently, our optional packages are basically *build time* optional 
> > (their inclusion or exclusion can lead to changes how other modules 
> > operate, for instance). That means in a packaged environment, they are 
> > optional *for the packager*, not for the user.
> >
> 
> The old idea of providing a binary and then offering optional packages via 
> compilation from source was fundamentally flawed. Setting up the build 
> environment is the hard part, and asking the users who opted for the binary 
> to do so is just inviting trouble.
> 
> Marc Culler's macOS binary packaging gets it right -- he just builds all 
> optional packages that happen to build without errors and includes them in 
> the binary package. It does not increase the overall size by much. 

Why not shipping binaries with and without optional packages on the
mirrors for all distros ?

Ciao,
Thierry



> In distribution packaging (debian, conda, ...), optional packages are just 
> ... packages, and no specific Sage infrastructure for that is needed. In 
> addition, we do already have a mechanism to advise users which distribution 
> package they need to install with their distribution's package manager. 
> See 
> https://wiki.sagemath.org/ReleaseTours/sage-9.2#System_package_information_for_optional_packages_at_runtime
> 
> 
> 
>  
> 
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Re: [sage-devel] Re: [sage-release] Re: Sage 9.5 released

[Matthias Koeppe]

On Tuesday, April 26, 2022 at 10:26:59 AM UTC-7 Nils Bruin wrote:

> If we're going to allow for/promote packaging as an easy way to get access 
> to sage, I think we need to reevaluate how we provide optional packages as 
> well. Currently, our optional packages are basically *build time* optional 
> (their inclusion or exclusion can lead to changes how other modules 
> operate, for instance). That means in a packaged environment, they are 
> optional *for the packager*, not for the user.
>

The old idea of providing a binary and then offering optional packages via 
compilation from source was fundamentally flawed. Setting up the build 
environment is the hard part, and asking the users who opted for the binary 
to do so is just inviting trouble.

Marc Culler's macOS binary packaging gets it right -- he just builds all 
optional packages that happen to build without errors and includes them in 
the binary package. It does not increase the overall size by much. 

In distribution packaging (debian, conda, ...), optional packages are just 
... packages, and no specific Sage infrastructure for that is needed. In 
addition, we do already have a mechanism to advise users which distribution 
package they need to install with their distribution's package manager. 
See 
https://wiki.sagemath.org/ReleaseTours/sage-9.2#System_package_information_for_optional_packages_at_runtime



 

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Re: [sage-devel] Re: [sage-release] Re: Sage 9.5 released

[Thierry]

Hi,

a few years ago, i used to build 16 binaries in a row at each release
for various Debian and Ubuntu versions and architectures. Then, i
stopped because Jan Groenwald dedicated some machines at AIMS to build
binaries. If necessary, i could try to setup such a builder for a bunch
of binaries for more distros.

The binaries worked pretty well on foreign machines, so what changed
since this period ?

Also, there used to be a SAGE_FAT_BINARY variable that was supposed to
ensure that the binary does not depend on the libraries provided by the
distro. Is it less efficient today ?

Ciao,
Thierry



On Tue, Apr 26, 2022 at 05:15:51AM -0700, kcrisman wrote:
> If we're moving away from providing binaries, then this is a good way to 
> go, well organized.  Below a few minor notes about the sagemath-tobias 
> link, I hope they are helpful.  My apologies in advance for any bike 
> shedding, though I tried to be pretty concrete.
> 
> 1. Is it possible to have a short bullet list for the three/four options
> * Linux
> * Mac
> * Windoze
> * Cloud
> that link to those, immediately below "Where would you like to run 
> SageMath?"?  I'm pretty sure Sphinx makes that possible.  Even a little bit 
> of needed scrolling leads to people just not caring.
> 
> 2. I'd also recommend Linux be last - this page is designed for people who 
> are not comfortable installing source software, I guess.  (Similarly, no 
> development as first option?)
> 
> e. Alternately, one could have the first decision point be "develop or not" 
> - that would be my preference, but obviously would be an annoying bit of 
> work with perhaps not that much marginal gain.  Still, that seems to be the 
> great divide in Sage, not so much platform, and would allow for people who 
> want to just use Sage in the cloud to see that option very early.  It's not 
> like people on (say) Windows don't also use the cloud, so the four-way 
> partition could be somewhat misleading to less careful readers (which many 
> internet users are when in a hurry) in practice, though of course not in 
> principle.
> 
> 3. Do the binaries/packaging allow for all optional packages and/or using 
> Cython/Fortran?  I recall this coming up not only on this list, but also 
> sometimes when I've tried to show people Cython usage as a "great feature" 
> of Sage that doesn't work in some environments.  If the answer to any of 
> these is not, you might need another part of the decision tree, or at least 
> a link to something about optional packages in each "no development" part.
> 
> 4. A link to some Windows doc on what WSL is would probably be pretty 
> helpful, since presumably a lot of Windows users who like doing math have 
> never heard of it.
> 
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Re: [sage-devel] Re: [sage-release] Re: Sage 9.5 released

[Nils Bruin]

If we're going to allow for/promote packaging as an easy way to get access 
to sage, I think we need to reevaluate how we provide optional packages as 
well. Currently, our optional packages are basically *build time* optional 
(their inclusion or exclusion can lead to changes how other modules 
operate, for instance). That means in a packaged environment, they are 
optional *for the packager*, not for the user.

There are plenty of examples around where optional packages are not of that 
nature: R has a very lively ecosystem of packages that can be installed 
*without rebuilding R* and python itself has a good ecosystem like that too.

If packaging is going to play a more important role in the distribution of 
sage, I think we need to make a distinction between build-time optional 
packages and packages that can be installed after sage has been built. And 
ideally we'd make as many as possible installable after build. Of course, 
that opens a whole can of worms of what should happen with post-build 
packages (that are out-of-tree, possibly?) in the face of updates ... that 
could put us back in the situation that motivated packaging sage as a 
monolithic distribution in the first place ...


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Re: [sage-devel] Re: [sage-release] Re: Sage 9.5 released

[Eric Gourgoulhon]

Hi,

First of all many thanks to all of you who are improving the installation 
instructions!

Le mardi 26 avril 2022 à 14:22:28 UTC+2, seb@gmail.com a écrit :

> several Linux distributions carry reasonably up to date binary Sage 
> installations (and these can be installed on various VMs, e.g. on Windows’ 
> WSL, ChromeOS’ Crostini, etc)
>
> For example current LinuxMint and WSL are both on Ubuntu 20.04 LTS which 
> gives you Sage 9.0 (as in the example I’ve mentioned above). To get Sage 
> 9.5 you need Ubuntu 22.04 (I guess not very widespread at the moment). My 
> point is the following: until we discontinued the binary tarballs, the 
> straight ahead way to a Sage installation for Ubuntu systems lead you to 
> the current release. This is broken, now.
>
To avoid repeating the same advice to people asking how to install Sage 9.5 
in Ubuntu in  a *simple* way, I've prepared the following page, which has 
been improved by Samuel Lelièvre: 
[1] https://sagemanifolds.obspm.fr/install_ubuntu.html
I've already got testimony of persons not familiar with bash commands (not 
speaking about building from source) who could succeed in installing Sage 
9.5 in Ubuntu 20.04 by following these simple instructions. Of course, this 
is somehow redundant with Sage's installation guide or README.md, but this 
provides the minimal required steps, without having to read the full 
installation guide. 

Maybe [1] could be moved from https://sagemanifolds.obspm.fr/ to a better 
accessible place, e.g. to Sage's wiki (legacy or Trac). In particular, at 
the moment, this page can only be ammended by sending a PR to 
https://github.com/sagemanifolds/WebSite.

It would be pretty easy to prepare a bash script executing all the commands 
listed in [1] and distribute that script from the download section of Sage 
home page. But I don't know if this is a good idea (security issues?)

Eric. 




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[sage-devel] build gets totally stuck after a broken download

[Dima Pasechnik]

Building the latest rc.
After a failure (network issues) to get an tarball for an spkg, I am
now seeing the following quite annoying bug:


$ make numpy # (or just make)
...
make[1]: Entering directory
'/home/scratch/scratch2/dimpase/sage/sage/build/make'
make --no-print-directory numpy-SAGE_VENV-no-deps
[numpy-1.21.4] cat: /build/pkgs/numpy/type: No such file or directory
[numpy-1.21.4] Error: Installing old-style SPKGs is no longer supported
make[2]: *** [Makefile:2793: numpy-SAGE_VENV-no-deps] Error 1
make[1]: *** [Makefile:2793:
/home/scratch/scratch2/dimpase/sage/sage/local/var/lib/sage/venv-python3.9/var/lib/sage/installed/numpy-1.21.4]
Error 2
make[1]: Leaving directory '/home/scratch/scratch2/dimpase/sage/sage/build/make'

...

There is no tarball for numpy in upstream/, and, as you see above,
 the prefix for  `build/pkgs/numpy/type` is wiped out, so the package
typecheck fails with
a silly error. It's unclear to me how to recover at this point.

(this is on Fedora 34, in case)

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Re: [sage-devel] Re: [sage-release] Re: Sage 9.5 released

[seb....@gmail.com]

several Linux distributions carry reasonably up to date binary Sage 
installations (and these can be installed on various VMs, e.g. on Windows’ 
WSL, ChromeOS’ Crostini, etc)

For example current LinuxMint and WSL are both on Ubuntu 20.04 LTS which 
gives you Sage 9.0 (as in the example I’ve mentioned above). To get Sage 
9.5 you need Ubuntu 22.04 (I guess not very widespread at the moment). My 
point is the following: until we discontinued the binary tarballs, the 
straight ahead way to a Sage installation for Ubuntu systems lead you to 
the current release. This is broken, now.

The installation manual for 9.6 will look like this: 
https://6212659123a9467b3cb0cd07--sagemath-tobias.netlify.app/installation/index.html
There’s a decision tree.

Looks good. But, according to your sentence:

I agree, we should update our documentation to warn people about wildly 
outdated distribution packages on outdated OS distributions, and steer 
users to using conda-forge.

I would have expected that the *no root access* question comes first and 
perhaps reads like this: *no root access or older OS distribution*.

All - https://www.sagemath.org/ now has a revised Download menu - please 
take a look.

No doubt, this improves the situation a lot! But I think someone visiting 
our web-page the first time will rather push the *big blue button Download 
9.5* instead of going to the download menu especially if he wants to be 
sure to get the current release. This launches this page 
. But the chance to receive the 
promised release from there went down tremendously since we discontinued 
the binary tarballs. Don’t get me wrong: I completely understand that we 
don’t continue the tarballs for maintenance reasons, but I think there are 
further adaptions needed.
​
kcrisman schrieb am Dienstag, 26. April 2022 um 14:15:51 UTC+2:

> If we're moving away from providing binaries, then this is a good way to 
> go, well organized.  Below a few minor notes about the sagemath-tobias 
> link, I hope they are helpful.  My apologies in advance for any bike 
> shedding, though I tried to be pretty concrete.
>
> 1. Is it possible to have a short bullet list for the three/four options
> * Linux
> * Mac
> * Windoze
> * Cloud
> that link to those, immediately below "Where would you like to run 
> SageMath?"?  I'm pretty sure Sphinx makes that possible.  Even a little bit 
> of needed scrolling leads to people just not caring.
>
> 2. I'd also recommend Linux be last - this page is designed for people who 
> are not comfortable installing source software, I guess.  (Similarly, no 
> development as first option?)
>
> e. Alternately, one could have the first decision point be "develop or 
> not" - that would be my preference, but obviously would be an annoying bit 
> of work with perhaps not that much marginal gain.  Still, that seems to be 
> the great divide in Sage, not so much platform, and would allow for people 
> who want to just use Sage in the cloud to see that option very early.  It's 
> not like people on (say) Windows don't also use the cloud, so the four-way 
> partition could be somewhat misleading to less careful readers (which many 
> internet users are when in a hurry) in practice, though of course not in 
> principle.
>
> 3. Do the binaries/packaging allow for all optional packages and/or using 
> Cython/Fortran?  I recall this coming up not only on this list, but also 
> sometimes when I've tried to show people Cython usage as a "great feature" 
> of Sage that doesn't work in some environments.  If the answer to any of 
> these is not, you might need another part of the decision tree, or at least 
> a link to something about optional packages in each "no development" part.
>
> 4. A link to some Windows doc on what WSL is would probably be pretty 
> helpful, since presumably a lot of Windows users who like doing math have 
> never heard of it.
>

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Re: [sage-devel] Re: [sage-release] Re: Sage 9.5 released

[kcrisman]

If we're moving away from providing binaries, then this is a good way to 
go, well organized.  Below a few minor notes about the sagemath-tobias 
link, I hope they are helpful.  My apologies in advance for any bike 
shedding, though I tried to be pretty concrete.

1. Is it possible to have a short bullet list for the three/four options
* Linux
* Mac
* Windoze
* Cloud
that link to those, immediately below "Where would you like to run 
SageMath?"?  I'm pretty sure Sphinx makes that possible.  Even a little bit 
of needed scrolling leads to people just not caring.

2. I'd also recommend Linux be last - this page is designed for people who 
are not comfortable installing source software, I guess.  (Similarly, no 
development as first option?)

e. Alternately, one could have the first decision point be "develop or not" 
- that would be my preference, but obviously would be an annoying bit of 
work with perhaps not that much marginal gain.  Still, that seems to be the 
great divide in Sage, not so much platform, and would allow for people who 
want to just use Sage in the cloud to see that option very early.  It's not 
like people on (say) Windows don't also use the cloud, so the four-way 
partition could be somewhat misleading to less careful readers (which many 
internet users are when in a hurry) in practice, though of course not in 
principle.

3. Do the binaries/packaging allow for all optional packages and/or using 
Cython/Fortran?  I recall this coming up not only on this list, but also 
sometimes when I've tried to show people Cython usage as a "great feature" 
of Sage that doesn't work in some environments.  If the answer to any of 
these is not, you might need another part of the decision tree, or at least 
a link to something about optional packages in each "no development" part.

4. A link to some Windows doc on what WSL is would probably be pretty 
helpful, since presumably a lot of Windows users who like doing math have 
never heard of it.

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Re: [sage-devel] Build-alert!

[Dima Pasechnik]

Thanks - in fact, we're very close to releasing 9.6.
Testing release candidates, a.k.a. 'rc' (or betas, whether is fresher)
is much more important.
See https://www.sagemath.org/download-latest.html
(or you can clone from GitHub: https://github.com/sagemath/sage)

Chances are that what you see in 9.5 is no longer relevant - as it's
probably fixed already.

On Tue, Apr 26, 2022 at 11:45 AM Raymond Rogers
 wrote:
>
>
> Hi, On a fresh download/configure/make for 9.5; I got a message; to send
> error to sage-devel@googlegroups.com
>
> It actually seemed to trundle on okay.
> build-deve.log   is terminal clip. of the make request
> The others are what  I think are relevant/asked for.
>
> ./sage
> ./sage --notebook
> seem to run, So I presume it's some functionality (some "container"?)
> that's missing.
> This is just a backup computer (with 8GB ram) , so there is no urgency.
>
> Ray
>
> Release 20.04.4 LTS (Focal Fossa) 64-bit
> Kernel Linux 5.4.0-109-generic x86_64
> MATE 1.24.0
>
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[sage-devel] Build-alert!

[Raymond Rogers]

Hi, On a fresh download/configure/make for 9.5; I got a message; to send 
error to sage-devel@googlegroups.com


It actually seemed to trundle on okay.
build-deve.log   is terminal clip. of the make request
The others are what  I think are relevant/asked for.

./sage
./sage --notebook
seem to run, So I presume it's some functionality (some "container"?) 
that's missing.

This is just a backup computer (with 8GB ram) , so there is no urgency.

Ray

Release 20.04.4 LTS (Focal Fossa) 64-bit
Kernel Linux 5.4.0-109-generic x86_64
MATE 1.24.0

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ERROR: Could not find a version that satisfies the requirement backports.entry-points-selectable>=1.0.4 (from virtualenv) (from versions: none)
[tox-3.24.3] ERROR: No matching distribution found for backports.entry-points-selectable>=1.0.4
[tox-3.24.3] Warning: installing with "python3 -m pip install --verbose --no-index --find-links=/opt/sage-9.5/local/var/lib/sage/venv-python3.8/var/lib/sage/wheels --disable-pip-version-check --isolated --no-cache-dir" failed. Retrying, adding "--no-deps --ignore-installed --ignore-requires-python"
[tox-3.24.3] Using pip 21.3.1 from /opt/sage-9.5/local/var/lib/sage/venv-python3.8/lib/python3.8/site-packages/pip (python 3.8)
[tox-3.24.3] Looking in links: /opt/sage-9.5/local/var/lib/sage/venv-python3.8/var/lib/sage/wheels
[tox-3.24.3] Processing /opt/sage-9.5/local/var/lib/sage/venv-python3.8/var/tmp/sage/build/tox-3.24.3/inst/opt/sage-9.5/local/var/lib/sage/venv-python3.8/var/lib/sage/wheels/tox-3.24.3-py2.py3-none-any.whl
[tox-3.24.3] Installing collected packages: tox
[tox-3.24.3]   changing mode of /opt/sage-9.5/local/var/lib/sage/venv-python3.8/bin/tox to 775
[tox-3.24.3]   changing mode of /opt/sage-9.5/local/var/lib/sage/venv-python3.8/bin/tox-quickstart to 775
[tox-3.24.3] Successfully installed tox-3.24.3
[tox-3.24.3] Warning: The installation needed to use "--no-deps --ignore-installed --ignore-requires-python" to succeed. This means that a dependencies file in build/pkgs/ needs to be updated. Please report this to sage-devel@googlegroups.com, including the build log of this package.
[tox-3.24.3] 
[tox-3.24.3] real	0m7.352s
[tox-3.24.3] user	0m6.422s
[tox-3.24.3] sys	0m1.071s
[tox-3.24.3] Copying package files from temporary location /opt/sage-9.5/local/var/lib/sage/venv-python3.8/var/tmp/sage/build/tox-3.24.3/inst to /opt/sage-9.5/local/var/lib/sage/venv-python3.8
[tox-3.24.3] Successfully installed tox-3.24.3
[tox-3.24.3] Deleting temporary build directory
[tox-3.24.3] /opt/sage-9.5/local/var/lib/sage/venv-python3.8/var/tmp/sage/build/tox-3.24.3
[tox-3.24.3] Finished installing tox-3.24.3
make[2]: Leaving directory '/opt/sage-9.5/build/make'

real	456m58.225s
user	414m50.951s
sys	26m28.023s
Sage build/upgrade complete!
make[1]: Leaving directory '/opt/sage-9.5'

Using cached file /opt/sage-9.5/upstream/virtualenv-20.7.2.tar.gz
virtualenv-20.7.2

Setting up build directory for virtualenv-20.7.2
Finished extraction
No patch files found in ../patches

Host system:
Linux rrogers-OptiPlex-760 5.4.0-109-generic #123-Ubuntu SMP Fri Apr 8 09:10:54 UTC 2022 x86_64 x86_64 x86_64 GNU/Linux

C compiler: gcc
C compiler version:
Using built-in specs.
COLLECT_GCC=gcc
COLLECT_LTO_WRAPPER=/usr/lib/gcc/x86_64-linux-gnu/9/lto-wrapper
OFFLOAD_TARGET_NAMES=nvptx-none:hsa
OFFLOAD_TARGET_DEFAULT=1
Target: x86_64-linux-gnu
Configured with: ../src/configure -v --with-pkgversion='Ubuntu 9.4.0-1ubuntu1~20.04.1' --with-bugurl=file:///usr/share/doc/gcc-9/README.Bugs --enable-languages=c,ada,c++,go,brig,d,fortran,objc,obj-c++,gm2 --prefix=/usr --with-gcc-major-version-only --program-suffix=-9 --program-prefix=x86_64-linux-gnu- --enable-shared --enable-linker-build-id --libexecdir=/usr/lib --without-included-gettext --enable-threads=posix --libdir=/usr/lib --enable-nls --enable-clocale=gnu --enable-libstdcxx-debug --enable-libstdcxx-time=yes --with-default-libstdcxx-abi=new --enable-gnu-unique-object --disable-vtable-verify --enable-plugin --enable-default-pie --with-system-zlib --with-target-system-zlib=auto --enable-objc-gc=auto --enable-multiarch --disable-werror --with-arch-32=i686 --with-abi=m64 --with-multilib-list=m32,m64,mx32 --enable-multilib --with-tune=generic --enable-offload-targets=nvptx-none=/build/gcc-9-Av3uEd/gcc-9-9.4.0/debian/tmp-nvptx/usr,hsa --without-cuda-driver --enable-checking=release --build=x86_64-linux-gnu --host=x86_64-linux-gnu --target=x86_64-linux-gnu
Thread model: posix
gcc version 9.4.0 (Ubuntu