[sage-devel] Re: Cross-type comparisons

[Nathann Cohen]

Honnêtement je suis content de plus être dev, parce qu'un ticket comme ca 
m'aurait re-garanti une engueulade.

Ce que tu fais dans le dossier graphe est complètement irresponsable. Tu es 
en train de ralentir le cas d'usage le plus classique pour ne rien pouvoir 
garantir de mieux sur le cas général. Tout ca en ajoutant que ton nouveau 
code ne doit pas être utilisé dans le futur. Vu le temps qui a été investi 
pour avoir de la perf dans ce code, ca fait rever.

Nathann

On Wednesday, December 14, 2016 at 9:32:24 PM UTC+10:30, Marc Mezzarobba 
wrote:
>
> Jeroen Demeyer wrote: 
> >> Does Element.__richcmp__() (via CoercionModel_cache_maps.richcmp()) 
> >> really need to fall back on comparing by type/id when no common 
> >> parent is found? 
> > 
> > No. As far as I know, It does so for historical reasons only. I am in 
> > favour of making elements without a common parent uncomparable. 
>
> Okay, here is an attempt at doing so: 
>
> https://trac.sagemath.org/ticket/22029 
>
> I had to touch corners of Sage I'm far for comfortable with; if people 
> more familiar with them can have a look at the changes and perhaps help 
> with cleaner fixes, that would be more than welcome! 
>
>  src/doc/de/tutorial/programming.rst | 12 -- 
>  src/doc/en/reference/graphs/index.rst   |  1 + 
>  src/doc/en/tutorial/programming.rst | 10 - 
>  src/doc/en/tutorial/tour_coercion.rst   |  2 - 
>  src/doc/fr/tutorial/programming.rst | 10 - 
>  src/doc/fr/tutorial/tour_coercion.rst   |  2 - 
>  src/doc/ja/tutorial/programming.rst | 11 - 
>  src/doc/ja/tutorial/tour_coercion.rst   |  2 - 
>  src/doc/pt/tutorial/programming.rst | 10 - 
>  src/doc/pt/tutorial/tour_coercion.rst   |  2 - 
>  src/doc/ru/tutorial/programming.rst |  9 - 
>  src/module_list.py  |  3 ++ 
>  src/sage/algebras/group_algebra.py  |  4 +- 
>  src/sage/categories/finite_posets.py|  4 +- 
>  src/sage/categories/sets_cat.py |  2 +- 
>  src/sage/combinat/crystals/alcove_path.py   |  2 +- 
>  src/sage/combinat/crystals/fast_crystals.py |  6 ++- 
>  src/sage/combinat/designs/incidence_structures.py   |  8 +++- 
>  src/sage/combinat/finite_state_machine.py   | 19 
> +++-- 
>  src/sage/combinat/misc.py   |  2 +- 
>  src/sage/combinat/posets/posets.py  |  9 +++-- 
>  src/sage/combinat/rigged_configurations/bij_type_A2_even.py | 13 +++--- 
>  src/sage/combinat/sf/sfa.py |  2 +- 
>  src/sage/combinat/species/product_species.py|  2 +- 
>  src/sage/combinat/species/recursive_species.py  |  2 +- 
>  src/sage/combinat/species/series_order.py   | 49 
> +++ 
>  src/sage/combinat/species/species.py|  7 ++-- 
>  src/sage/combinat/subset.py |  3 +- 
>  src/sage/combinat/words/abstract_word.py|  5 ++- 
>  src/sage/combinat/words/finite_word.py  |  6 +-- 
>  src/sage/combinat/words/morphism.py |  8 ++-- 
>  src/sage/combinat/words/words.py| 16 ++-- 
>  src/sage/geometry/cone.py   |  4 -- 
>  src/sage/geometry/fan.py|  2 - 
>  src/sage/geometry/polyhedron/base.py|  7  
>  src/sage/geometry/toric_lattice.py  |  2 - 
>  src/sage/geometry/triangulation/element.py  |  2 - 
>  src/sage/graphs/base/c_graph.pyx| 30 
> -- 
>  src/sage/graphs/base/label_cmp.pxd  |  4 ++ 
>  src/sage/graphs/base/label_cmp.pyx  | 84 
> +++ 
>  src/sage/graphs/base/sparse_graph.pyx   | 21 
> ++ 
>  src/sage/graphs/generic_graph.py| 46 
> + 
>  src/sage/graphs/graph_plot.py   | 29 
> +- 
>  src/sage/graphs/schnyder.py |  6 +-- 
>  src/sage/groups/affine_gps/group_element.py |  2 - 
>  src/sage/homology/chain_complex.py  | 17  
>  src/sage/homology/simplicial_complex.py | 25 
> ++-- 
>  src/sage/interfaces/ecm.py  |  2 +- 
>  src/sage/libs/ntl/ntl_mat_ZZ.pyx|  4 -- 
>  src/sage/misc/misc.py   | 12 +++--- 
>  

[sage-devel] Re: [sage-support] (William Stein) "my top priority right now is to **make a lot of money**"

[Nathann Cohen]

Hello,

But you are responsible for hiding the rest of the message... 
>

With a link toward the full message follows the quote ? You claim that I 
hid it is rather bold.

- William's strategy is: making money with SageMath Inc and use this 
> money to continue (i.e. after having started Sage) building an open 
> source ecosystem for mathematical computations. 
>

That's what William claims indeed. Conveniently, the two-steps plan starts 
with "making a lot of money".

- Not every Sage developer thinks that SageMath Inc is a good way for 
> improving SageMath. 
>

You tell me.

Argued e-mails are much more fruitful than "factual" ones hiding calumnies. 
>

I provided a quote which I thought worth sharing, and a link toward the 
full message. The rest is up to you all.

Nathann 

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"sage-devel" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to sage-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

[sage-devel] (William Stein) "my top priority right now is to **make a lot of money**"

[Nathann Cohen]

Quote from William Stein, CEO of SageMath Inc (private for-profit
Delaware company) [1]

So there is no confusion, my top priority right now is to **make a lot
of money** by building a profitable company on open source software
(Latex, Linux, Sage, Octave, R, etc.)

(full post)
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/sage-devel/B3WnJr6S1bw/JQ_jvOITBAAJ

This post being entirely factual, I shouldn't be held responsible for
its content.

Nathann

[1] 
http://www.edgarcompany.sec.gov/servlet/CompanyDBSearch?page=detailed=0001634867_back=23

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"sage-devel" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to sage-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

[sage-devel] Now officially living off your (collective) backs

[Nathann Cohen]

Though of course I'll be the only one to see it this way, right ? ;-)


https://www.reddit.com/r/math/comments/4nkt5u/william_stein_is_leaving_academia_to_start_a/

And the usual "Sage: a history in which free developers hardly appear
though they worked by dozens and over years" slideshow. Remember,
there's no "I" in "team".

http://wstein.org/papers/talks/2016-06-sage-bp/bp.pdf

Nathann

P.S.: Nice car, William !

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"sage-devel" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to sage-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

[sage-devel] Re: Should the 2015 Spies Prize be accorded to Nathann Cohen?

[Nathann Cohen]

>
> I have high hopes of winning this prize, however:
>
> 
> https://www.flinders.edu.au/science_engineering/csem/research/programs/flinders-hamiltonian-cycle-project/fhcpcs.cfm
>

(In my enthusiasm, I failed to mention that this HCP guerilla is a team 
work with David Coudert. Who still hasn't given up on the remaining handful)

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"sage-devel" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to sage-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

[sage-devel] Re: Should the 2015 Spies Prize be accorded to Nathann Cohen?

[Nathann Cohen]

Hello Sebastien,

It's awfully kind of you but I accept a very very limited range of 
currencies, and it seems that Sage has gone bankrupt recently: I like to be 
paid with honest answers, and there's no market on which I can buy some 
with USD.

https://groups.google.com/d/msg/sage-devel/D8tF8Hqpr4o/cjMr7a7HBQAJ

I have high hopes of winning this prize, however:

  
  
https://www.flinders.edu.au/science_engineering/csem/research/programs/flinders-hamiltonian-cycle-project/fhcpcs.cfm

I haven't solved all of them (a handful remains), and as I hit them hard 
and long I'm hopeful that nobody will beat me before the end of the year.

Nathann

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"sage-devel" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to sage-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

Re: [sage-devel] Re: The Sage Project (Nathann Cohen)

[Nathann Cohen]

> sagemath.com absorbing sagemath.org, confusions between Sage and SMC,

I meant "absorbing sagemath.org's traffic". Sorry for that.

Nathann

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"sage-devel" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to sage-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

Re: [sage-devel] Re: The Sage Project (Nathann Cohen)

[Nathann Cohen]

> With the full understanding that I'm pouring some gasoline into the flames
> right now, I still say that everybody, including me and Nathann, have the
> "right" to be mistaken.

It seems that I was mistaken indeed. As Miguel Marco noticed [1], my
opinion on many things changed since an email conversation I had with
Bill Hart, on which I reported [2].

As I said in [2], not knowing William at all (never met, barely
exchanged emails) and seeing several things happen (SageMath
trademark, SageMath Inc. for-profit company, CEO position,
sagemath.com absorbing sagemath.org, confusions between Sage and SMC,
money earned by SMC by making Sage available), I slowly got convinced
that William may very well have his very own interests at heart. Of
the kind that could lead me [3] to believe that I was working for
free, for a for-profit company.

Discussing with Bill Hart convinced me that *he* was convinced of
William's goodwill. That's important for me, and made me doubt
reasonably of this position. Even though I would prefer to hear
William's opinion directly rather than having to reverse-engineer it
from other people's opinion of him.

Assuming William's goodwill I posted [3,4], which tried to explain his
actions as a feeling of *major* distinction between Sage's development
and Sage's 'mission statement': it convinced me that he could see
Sage's development as an 'unimportant subtask' of the goal he aims at,
which would in turn lead him to act as if we had no role to play in
this story.

I believe that Sage's developers have a *right* to be involved in
whatever is being made in Sage's name: this includes the trademarks,
the for-profit company, SageMathCloud, etc. The free volunteers who
develop it cannot be just there to write code, and have no other say
(no information, no consultation) when such things happen.

Thus, I sent [4] as a request for a necessary democracy in all these
points.

Note that so far, I'm trying to figure this all out by talking with
almost everybody and I am quite eager to read his answer to [4]. I am
willing to go to great length to clear a misunderstanding about the
intention behind the actions he took unilaterally (e.g. the *long*
discussions reported in [2]), but so far that's only a reasonable
doubt.

His recent message [5] in which he says that he cannot make any claim
that all the money earned by SMC will be spent on Sage, and the fact
that he has partners (unknown to me) who will have a say on it, told
me already that I was a bit too generous at times when giving the full
benefit of the doubt.

Nathann

[1] https://groups.google.com/d/msg/sage-devel/P62HfBr4UnI/6RrltX64BQAJ
[2] https://groups.google.com/d/msg/sage-devel/P62HfBr4UnI/irMQIxVTBQAJ
[3] https://groups.google.com/d/msg/sage-devel/P62HfBr4UnI/0rfF5DcHBQAJ
[4] https://groups.google.com/d/msg/sage-devel/D8tF8Hqpr4o/7n5IKHSkBQAJ
[5] https://groups.google.com/d/msg/sage-devel/D8tF8Hqpr4o/DZvXzbG9BQAJ

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"sage-devel" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to sage-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

[sage-devel] Re: The Sage Project (Nathann Cohen)

[Nathann Cohen]

Hello William,

I don't think that I disagree with any of the goals you aim at for Sage. I
certainly don't see anything wrong with your involvement in seeing it come
true. I don't see anything wrong in the way you embrace the problems you 
meet on
the way and try to address them.

My main complaint about it all, is that you seem to think about it as if you
were still alone in the task. So alone that those who have been developing 
it
since you stopped are hardly part of the picture you drew (and that's many
persons, and that's many years). Two problems that I see:

1) You expect people to participate to a task, but make by yourself 
decisions
   which involve all of them. Sometimes without informing them, least of all
   discussing the plan with them.

2) So doing, and because they are not part of the story, you overlook that 
they
   could also help better toward what seem urgent to you: they could, if you
   involved them more.

It's like you delegated development to the people here, and now have your 
hands
free to do whatever you think needs be done. And so doing, people here who
contribute to sage (and who grew an interest for turning Sage into the 
perfect
math software -- all sides of the question considered) are not invited to 
step
on this second terrain, where you still seem to think as if you were alone
against the world.

About your short description of me: be fair. I do not even understand what 
you
mean by 'academic use only' (and I'm fine with the GPL) but yes, I would 
prefer
all decisions to be taken democratically. Even the non-technical
decisions. Having sagemath.com redirect elsewhere than sagemath.org was one 
of
them. Creating a for-profit company with the same name as the software was
another.

"With idealistic goals of purity": be fair. I request more democratic 
decisions,
and if there is *anything* you can grant me it is the very clear knowledge 
that
my opininions are not always shared by everybody. When I ask for more 
democratic
decisions, I am sharply aware of the differences. But more democracy, 
indeed,
would be an improvement.

"it's ethically wrong to make a release of Sage with known bugs!": be fair. 
I
fixed too many of them to believe that I never add any, or that none
remains. What was ethically wrong in the instance you are apparently 
refeering
to was the *removal of a warning* from a code that we knew returned wrong
results.

Finally: I don't see this project achieving the aim you defined without 
somebody
like you. You have the devotion, the energy, the talent. As a human
being, however, I find it hard to contribute to Sage if you see it as a
relatively unimportant subtask of a bigger plan over which the
community has no claim.

Have fun,

Nathann

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"sage-devel" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to sage-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

Re: [sage-devel] Re: Bye

[Nathann Cohen]

Hello Karl-Dieter,

> As to the substance of Nathann's comments, most of this is really an
argument
> about the GPL, or rather about how many of the potentialities in the GPL
are
> acceptable to a given community around a GPL product

This interpretation of my comments, if this is what you proposed, could not
be
further from the truth. My problem is not legal.

After exchanging several emails with Bill Hart about all this, I was
laughing in
my bed yesterday at 2am. You will see, it's hilarious:

1) Bill gave me his picture of Sage's life. He knows William, and told me
what
   he knows of how Sage was started. He told me of the people who were
around at
   that time, their life and how hard they found it to get funding to work
on
   open-source software. Basically, he gave me a picture of William's
attempts
   since then to make Sage known, through getting funding there and there,
   through academia through rich guys, through other grants, through SMC.

2) I told him what I knew of William: I never met the guy, and though I
started
   working on Sage ~6 years ago my picture of sage is pretty much
William-free,
   short of knowing that he started it. I don't remember [1] him entering
the
   technical discussions of Sage or taking side for this or that design
   choice. I don't remember working with him on any code, I don't remember
him
   saying "I'll fix this" and "fixing this" later. Hear me well: since I
worked
   in Sage, I always considered William as a historial figure [2]. There is
   nothing wrong with him starting the project and moving to other things
later
   of course, he just wasn't in Sage's landscape anymore.

And that's where the two visions clash. For Bill Hart, Sage's story is the
story
of what William Stein does to make Sage successful. For me, Sage is an
open-source software managed collaboralively by a community of volunteers.

In Bill's story, however, William's work on Sage never ended. It's like he
has
been trying all he could from the start, and still does. And on the way,
made
'choices he had to make' like trademarking Sage's name, becoming the CEO of
SageMath Inc., like creating SMC, like trying the two together in name and
purposes and even in the ads because to him [3] that's one and the same
attempt
to make Sage successful. All choices that you saw me complain about on this
forum.

That's where it becomes hilarious: I would never dream of doing anything
like
that without consulting everybody on sage-devel at every step. To me,
sage-devel
is how and where Sage is being 'managed', and led, and headed. On the other
hand, I never thought that William could have any specific claim on the
topic,
since to me he had simply never existed on the radars since as long as I
have
been here. At most, given what he did, he would have been listened twice as
much
as anybody else, but that's it.

In the picture I understood from Bill, however, it's as if William never
thought
that the people on sage-devel who maintain and develop this software could
have
any specific claim on the topic, since Sage is a software he created and has
been trying to push ever since. Thus, no need to ask for their opinion and
act
on any disagreement when it comes to create a for-profit company, to become
a
CEO of a company with this name, of managing SMC and making money with it
[4].

So, yeah. That's why I was laughing in my bed at 2am. To me it's like a 6
years
misunderstanding. And of course it's not about licenses. I never imagined
somebody could think that the collective and free efforts of dozens of
persons
across years were but a detail in a bigger picture, and could be as easily
ignored when it came to decide of how Sage was to be developed. In this
picture,
none of this work even exists.

Nathann

[1] Please guys, don't try to find a lost sage-devel thread from years ago.
I
said that I don't *remember* it, and that's all. I'm trying to convey a
general idea.

[2] Which does not diminish his past work, of course. Just means it's
something
from a past era.

[3] Yeah, I'm sorry but I am reduced to interpreting omens since this
conversation about him does not apparently deserve his intervention.

[4] To give you an idea: I wouldn't have seen anything wrong if William had
come
here to ask everybody to contribute *money* to start SMC as a group. I'm
don't know if I would have participated (no clue), but that would have
sounded like a natural step to me.

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"sage-devel" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to sage-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

[sage-devel] Re: Bye

[Nathann Cohen]

>
> the fact that you made a very successful sale to CNRS of a nicely wrapped
> in Sage patches product, called "Nathann Cohen, PhD", to a tune of few 
> million euro,
> (paid is small instalments called "salary")
> looks perfectly OK for you, as this is money going into your bank account, 
> right?
>

Dima,

The CNRS hired me (4years ago?) as a researcher in Graph Theory. They 
looked at my publications, coauthors and recommendation letters. They heard 
about my past research and what I planned to do in the future. They pay me 
monthly for my work as a researcher in graph theory. Which I do.

You should think of adding a disclaimer saying "I am paid by Nicolas' 
grant" in your messages. 

Nathann

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"sage-devel" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to sage-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

[sage-devel] Re: Bye

[Nathann Cohen]

Hello again,

I read your comments and answered some of them. Let's make it simple:

- William, who works at making people confuse Sage with his product
SageMathCloud (making promotional videos ...)
- Nicolas and his team, who I haven't actually working on trac for a
while but build their career on other people's work through Sage
- The fact that almost all of you accepts this as normal

Those are the reason that I leave (if that needed be explained).

When then I read comments saying "we value your work, come back
whenever you want" what I head is in total agreement with what I said
above. "What we need is free worker, we don't care if they complain
for as long as they work. We won't pay attention to what they say
either, all that matter is that they keep on working".

I worked here for the science, and the pleasure. The pleasure I can
find elsewhere, and the science is something that everybody forgot.
What you do nowadays is sell a product. And you write it for free for
people who sell it.

Nathann

On 22 February 2016 at 19:47, Nathann Cohen <nathann.co...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hello everybody,
>
> I am disgusted by what this community has become. You are also tired
> of seeing me complain here about a lot of things.
>
> Have fun.
>
> Nathann

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"sage-devel" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to sage-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

[sage-devel] Bye

[Nathann Cohen]

Hello everybody,

I am disgusted by what this community has become. You are also tired
of seeing me complain here about a lot of things.

Have fun.

Nathann

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"sage-devel" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to sage-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

Re: [sage-devel] promotional video

[Nathann Cohen]

>
> "to infer that a familiar opinion is a prevalent one"
>

This never happened.

Nathann

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"sage-devel" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to sage-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

Re: [sage-devel] promotional video

[Nathann Cohen]

> We made a SageMath promotional video this weekend

You made this to promote SageMathCloud. Don't call it a SageMath
promotional video.

Nathann

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"sage-devel" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to sage-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

[sage-devel] Need people for sage-trac-account

[Nathann Cohen]

Hello everybody,

There are many requests for new trac accounts, and I will not be
creating them anymore.

Regards,

Nathann

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"sage-devel" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to sage-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

Re: [sage-devel] Re: Publish and maintain online a list of data produced by Sage

[Nathann Cohen]

> (I mean the general idea, not the specific content, obviously.)

I don't know what you mean by the 'general idea' of this website. Too
me it looks far too complicated for what I want to do: I just want to
publish a bunch of numbers, possibly with a matrix attached to each
entry. From what I know of LMFDB they are trying to build some
specialised version of Wikipedia (it contains various definitions of
mathematical objects) along with data, and it seems that whatever data
they make available is jailed in their website.

I only need an HTML (or js) table, possibly with a csv file below. A
couple of links toward text files which define matrices, perhaps. A
bit like that:

http://www.steinertriples.fr/ncohen/anr/archive/ (in french)

Looks way more 'open' to me.

Nathann

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"sage-devel" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to sage-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

Re: [sage-devel] Re: Publish and maintain online a list of data produced by Sage

[Nathann Cohen]

Well, that's the "solve it by myself and for myself only". That's
always available, but I wondered if there was need for something more
general.

Nathann

On 19 February 2016 at 18:05, Travis Scrimshaw <tsc...@ucdavis.edu> wrote:
> Hey Nathann,
>It seems like a good solution might be to maintain a small website that
> holds this displays this information held in, say, a SQL database. Then just
> add a link from the Sage documentation to this website. You could also then
> write a small script to automatically update this on each (beta) version of
> Sage. This approach could also make it more likely to be discoverable by
> other people too.
>
> Best,
> Travis
>
>
> On Friday, February 19, 2016 at 5:51:39 AM UTC-6, Nathann Cohen wrote:
>>
>> Hello everybody,
>>
>> Sage is able to produce a bunch of data that is rather interesting to
>> me. This data can change between different versions of Sage, and is (I
>> believe) of public interest.
>>
>> For this reason, I would like to publish [1] it online, and keep it up
>> to date with Sage. The easiest way would be for me to include it in
>> Sage's documentation [2], but:
>>
>> 1) Having it as a doctest is a bad idea, for this data can change
>> often and create a *lot* of branch conflicts while two persons work on
>> the code.
>>
>> 2) Having the module file add this data to the docstring means that
>> this computation would be performed every time the module is loaded.
>>
>> The data I have in mind is simply a 'list of numbers'. It could be
>> similar to this page [3], except that this data is hardcoded and thus
>> does not change often. The appearance would be the same, though: many
>> many numbers (in a more readable format), generated from Sage's own
>> databases.
>>
>> I write here to know if any of you would have similar needs. That may
>> also tell me how this should be implemented to fit everybody's needs.
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> Nathann
>>
>> [1] Not in the sense of a scientific publication. In the more common
>> sense of 'making public'
>> [2] See the big doctest at
>>
>> http://doc.sagemath.org/html/en/reference/combinat/sage/combinat/designs/latin_squares.html
>> [3]
>> http://doc.sagemath.org/html/en/reference/combinat/sage/combinat/designs/database.html
>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> "sage-devel" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an
> email to sage-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
> To post to this group, send email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com.
> Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel.
> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"sage-devel" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to sage-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

[sage-devel] Publish and maintain online a list of data produced by Sage

[Nathann Cohen]

Hello everybody,

Sage is able to produce a bunch of data that is rather interesting to
me. This data can change between different versions of Sage, and is (I
believe) of public interest.

For this reason, I would like to publish [1] it online, and keep it up
to date with Sage. The easiest way would be for me to include it in
Sage's documentation [2], but:

1) Having it as a doctest is a bad idea, for this data can change
often and create a *lot* of branch conflicts while two persons work on
the code.

2) Having the module file add this data to the docstring means that
this computation would be performed every time the module is loaded.

The data I have in mind is simply a 'list of numbers'. It could be
similar to this page [3], except that this data is hardcoded and thus
does not change often. The appearance would be the same, though: many
many numbers (in a more readable format), generated from Sage's own
databases.

I write here to know if any of you would have similar needs. That may
also tell me how this should be implemented to fit everybody's needs.

Thanks,

Nathann

[1] Not in the sense of a scientific publication. In the more common
sense of 'making public'
[2] See the big doctest at
http://doc.sagemath.org/html/en/reference/combinat/sage/combinat/designs/latin_squares.html
[3] 
http://doc.sagemath.org/html/en/reference/combinat/sage/combinat/designs/database.html

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"sage-devel" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to sage-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

Re: [sage-devel] Re: For whoever cares about undergrads (or wants to help William earn more money)

[Nathann Cohen]

> I think this thread would be boring for sage-flame too.

This thread has achieved its aim (with impressive collateral damage),
as it was to bring people's attention on an attempt to improve the
'plot' section of our reference manual. And one of us (Eric) did do
the job:

http://trac.sagemath.org/ticket/19953

Nathann

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"sage-devel" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to sage-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

Re: [sage-devel] Product of immutable matrices are mutable...

[Nathann Cohen]

> Having immutability by default would be particuarly annoying in the
> following case
>
> sage: a = identity_matrix(ZZ, 3)
> sage: b = a + a   # immutable
> sage: b[0,1] = 2  # niet

Why would identity_matrix return an immutable matrix ? Or did I miss
something ? All that we need is that the sum/product of immutable
matrices return an immutable matrix, and that does not seem in
conflict with your example.

Nathann

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"sage-devel" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to sage-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

Re: [sage-devel] Re: For whoever cares about undergrads (or wants to help William earn more money)

[Nathann Cohen]

> Oh, but I thought this whole thread was all about complaining about people's
> curriculum and where they are getting money from publicly.

It's a wrong impression. It is about Sage's monetization in SageMath
cloud, which is of public interest.

I can explain my own situation if that bothers you, but it's unrelated
to the topic of this mailing list.

I am sorry that you force me to do so here while wasting everybody's time

> So you say that actually this is all about who you take money from. So
> William is taking money from you? How so?

My mistake. I meant what he obtains his money with. SMC customers
spend their own money.

> Or is he taking money from people who are paying him for a service he is
> providing.

Yes. I am a researcher.

> Maybe you are also taking money from the taxpayer for a service you are
> providing? I don't know, could there be a common theme there? Do the work,
> get paid or something. Maybe we could make it into one of those moral
> principles you were talking about. Someone does work that other people
> benefit from and are willing to pay for then they should get paid for it?

If I hire people to write research papers and stamp my name on it, and
claim that it is my work, I would be a fraud.

If I write a paper with coauthors and remove their name at the last
minute, becoming the only one rewarded for a collaborative work, it
would be the same.

Nathann

On 16 February 2016 at 13:46, 'Bill Hart' via sage-devel
<sage-devel@googlegroups.com> wrote:
> Oh, but I thought this whole thread was all about complaining about people's
> curriculum and where they are getting money from publicly. So now you don't
> like that idea? Curious indeed.
>
> So you say that actually this is all about who you take money from. So
> William is taking money from you? How so?
>
> Or is he taking money from people who are paying him for a service he is
> providing.
>
> Maybe you are also taking money from the taxpayer for a service you are
> providing? I don't know, could there be a common theme there? Do the work,
> get paid or something. Maybe we could make it into one of those moral
> principles you were talking about. Someone does work that other people
> benefit from and are willing to pay for then they should get paid for it?
>
> Bill.
>
>
> On Tuesday, 16 February 2016 13:25:16 UTC+1, Nathann Cohen wrote:
>>
>> Okay, now this is getting ridiculous. I will gladly answer any
>> question about my own curriculum in private, and whoever finds my
>> answer to be of public interest is allowed to post them wherever he
>> likes. I'll stop participating to this thread which probably used most
>> of everybody's patience.
>>
>> Nathann
>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> "sage-devel" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an
> email to sage-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
> To post to this group, send email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com.
> Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel.
> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"sage-devel" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to sage-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

Re: [sage-devel] Re: For whoever cares about undergrads (or wants to help William earn more money)

[Nathann Cohen]

Okay, now this is getting ridiculous. I will gladly answer any
question about my own curriculum in private, and whoever finds my
answer to be of public interest is allowed to post them wherever he
likes. I'll stop participating to this thread which probably used most
of everybody's patience.

Nathann

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"sage-devel" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to sage-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

Re: [sage-devel] Re: For whoever cares about undergrads (or wants to help William earn more money)

[Nathann Cohen]

AAnd it goes again. Honestly nobody can tell me that I keep this
discussion going, I tried to stop it a thousand times already.

> of course you are, we have discussed this - for in no small part you got
> your job
> via your involvement in Sage (and you agreed with this!).
> Now what, following your logic you are getting money that is not yours!
> Should you start distributing a part of your salary
> among Sage devs, rather than keeping it?

"In no small part I got my job via my involvement in Sage?"

No. What I did is say during my interview (and in my applications)
that I had been working on Sage heavily, improving its library of
Graph Theory and LP. The committee probably liked it. In case you
wonder, I am not shaming myself either when it comes to research in
graph theory.

Just so you know, the reports I have to fill about my work as a
researcher do not contain a single line about Sage. It is *never*
asked, and as far as my employer is concerned it is as if I did not
contribute to this software anymore. They count softwares I wrote
myself (not Sage), new patents (not Sage), prizes I receive (not
Sage), papers I publish (not Sage), etc.

Nathann

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"sage-devel" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to sage-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

Re: [sage-devel] Re: For whoever cares about undergrads (or wants to help William earn more money)

[Nathann Cohen]

> I agree with you totally Nathann. But William is NOT selling Sage.

Sorry, we discussed this sufficiently. I have no new argument to add.
You don't call your company SageMath Inc or SageMath Cloud if you
don't sell Sage in some way.

> ANYONE, including you can make money from a product or service that uses
> Sage. The GPL does not in any way prevent this. William doesn't personally
> own Sage, nor does he claim to.

Why do you even try to tell me that anyone can do it ? How many times
did I say that I knew it was legal ? Should I repeat it again ?

Yes, it is legal.

Everybody can do it.

> How on earth can William pay Open Source developers as he has intended to do
> for something like 10 years now (without real success), if he isn't allowed
> to make any money to do so, and he isn't allowed to pay to support himself
> whilst he works on such a project?

Okay, you obviously answer to something which I never said.

> Seriously, how much taxpayer money are you wasting on Sage development?

Today a lot, because of this conversation.

Usually none, for I develop Sage in my research areas. It benefits me
and others. I could do the same without sharing my code, which would
be a net loss for everybody.

> What
> percentage of your day is given over to that? Are you going to give the
> money back Nathann? Now we really want to know. If William doesn't have the
> right to be paid, nor do you.

It is not about the right to be paid (is it a right now? Cool !!! What
about unemployment?) it is about who you take the money from. I am not
paid for somebody else's work.

Nathann

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"sage-devel" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to sage-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

Re: [sage-devel] Re: For whoever cares about undergrads (or wants to help William earn more money)

[Nathann Cohen]

Hello Bill,

There is something I apparently can't get through: whatever William
"deserves" for his hard work (and we all work hard, don't we?), he
cannot take wherever he pleases. Selling drugs, prostitution, or
blackmail would not be morally "right", whatever you think he
deserves. *I* believe (please respect that) that it is not right for
him to take money by selling Sage, for Sage is not his work but a
collaborative work. He does not own it (though he started it) because
dozens of others did their fair share since, and he does not plan to
pay them equally.

And yes, again, it is legal. Look at the newspapers, and you will get
a good idea of the difference between legal and right.

I don't think I ever said anything different than that.

Nathann

On 16 February 2016 at 12:20, 'Bill Hart' via sage-devel
<sage-devel@googlegroups.com> wrote:
> Nathann, yes, I think William deserves it. Sage would not exist without
> William, everyone knows this. That was certainly my point. But I've also
> known William for years and he has spent a lot of time searching for ways to
> pay Open Source developers. For example, he and I submitted a proposal to
> Microsoft in about 2010 to pay a developer to port Pari to Windows 64. We
> were successful in that, but it was a tiny amount of money.
>
> William has applied for many grants, with a very recent NSF one being
> denied.
>
> William has approached big companies, like Microsoft, Sun, Boeing, the DoD
> and others, in search of funding, over a period of years. This has had very
> limited success. He's also approached various successful individual
> businessmen, looking for interest in investment.
>
> He's worked so ridiculously hard to get a sustainable source of funding to
> pay developer salaries so Sage can achieve its aim. He finally has such a
> mechanism, maybe, and you are complaining about it like he's trying to do
> something dishonest or undeserved.
>
> I don't know what ideology says that he wouldn't be entitled to draw a
> salary from his part or full time job, which I expect in the future will be
> at least partly maintaining SMC.
>
> Moreover, if that takes over all his time so that he is no longer able to
> research, teach or otherwise perform his duties in his current job, would
> you still deny him the right to draw a salary from what is occupying him
> essentially full time? If so, you are mad. You'd really prefer to see him
> starve would you?
>
> I not only think that William might pay himself from SMC in the future, but
> that he should, if it is successful. He will need the money to buy himself
> out from teaching, I would imagine, at the very least. he has a family to
> support you know!
>
> There is NOTHING stopping you from starting a company which makes money from
> leveraging Sage in some way and paying yourself. If you can come up with a
> product or service that people are actually prepared to pay you for, why
> not? The only reason you haven't done so is either because it doesn't
> interest you, or you haven't come up with such an idea, because you aren't
> William.
>
> I'm sure sagemath.org advertises SMC and vice versa because they both
> benefit one another. If you had a product or service that complemented Sage,
> I'm sure that too would be advertised on the website. And I'm pretty sure
> you too would mention Sage in all your advertising.
>
> You understand that either Sage or SMC alone are worth less than Sage and
> SMC together. It's actually possible for the two together to be worth more
> (either in dollar or in code or mathematical terms) than the sum of the two
> in isolation. Both projects *should* leverage each other. This is obvious.
>
> I think your complaints are invalid and disrespectful.
>
> Bill.
>
> On Tuesday, 16 February 2016 11:34:24 UTC+1, Dima Pasechnik wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> On Tuesday, February 16, 2016 at 10:17:37 AM UTC, Nathann Cohen wrote:
>>>
>>> > https://www.irs.gov/uac/IRS-Freedom-of-Information
>>> >
>>> > SMC tax filings are public information, and these filings are detailed
>>> > enough
>>> > to see if there is any pocketing of money going on.
>>>
>>> Now I get a notion of what you call 'more or less straightforward'. It
>>> was a good joke.
>>>
>>> >> He said that he would never pay himself with SMC money ?
>>> >
>>> > he said that the proceeds of SMC will go towards improving Sage.
>>>
>>> Oh. Well, paying himself to work full-time on Sage can certainly be
>>> understood as using SMC money to improve Sage. In my understanding, he
>>> will probably do it eventually.
>>
>>
>> so in your eyes Willi

Re: [sage-devel] Re: For whoever cares about undergrads (or wants to help William earn more money)

[Nathann Cohen]

> Oh. Well, paying himself to work full-time on Sage can certainly be
> understood as using SMC money to improve Sage. In my understanding, he
> will probably do it eventually.

Correction: to work full-time or not, on SMC or on Sage.

Either way it's true that this conversation has not brought any kind
of understanding for a long long time now.

Nathann

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"sage-devel" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to sage-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

Re: [sage-devel] Re: For whoever cares about undergrads (or wants to help William earn more money)

[Nathann Cohen]

> https://www.irs.gov/uac/IRS-Freedom-of-Information
>
> SMC tax filings are public information, and these filings are detailed
> enough
> to see if there is any pocketing of money going on.

Now I get a notion of what you call 'more or less straightforward'. It
was a good joke.

>> He said that he would never pay himself with SMC money ?
>
> he said that the proceeds of SMC will go towards improving Sage.

Oh. Well, paying himself to work full-time on Sage can certainly be
understood as using SMC money to improve Sage. In my understanding, he
will probably do it eventually.

Nathann

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"sage-devel" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to sage-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

Re: [sage-devel] Re: For whoever cares about undergrads (or wants to help William earn more money)

[Nathann Cohen]

> Nathann, you make accusations stemming from you being clueless about ways US
> companies operate,
> requirements for US tax reporting, etc.
> It is more or less straightforward to verify how much a company makes (it
> gets complex with big
> companies of size approaching Google, but it is irrelevant here).

Straightforward ? Can you show me how to get this information on SMC,
for instance ?

> I think you owe William an apology, as you basically call him a liar,

You are mad.

> accusing him of pocketing money earned by SMC,
> even though he always maintained he would not do this.

He said that he would never pay himself with SMC money ?

Nathann

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"sage-devel" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to sage-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

Re: [sage-devel] Re: For whoever cares about undergrads (or wants to help William earn more money)

[Nathann Cohen]

Hello Bill,

I have to admit that answering your mail is more satisfying that
answering others. I started this thread to promote a needs_review
ticket (Eric Gourgoulhon went there since), but the thread became a
collection of attacks from people that cannot hear simple things like
"William makes money from Sage". Funnily, I am the one who is
considered as a troll here even when he created a for-profit company
(which would be sufficient in itself to make my claim).

At the very least, discussing it in long/constructed emails gives the
appearance of a more respectable activity. I surely can use that.

> Nathan, you started this thread with words like, "help william earn more
> $$ than he has now ".
>
> You are making a claim here, that William is personally making money for
> himself from Sage. If you make the claim, it is up to you to prove the
> claim. So, what is your evidence that William is now paying himself money
> from SageMath Inc on top of his salary at the Uni of Washington? If you
> don't have any evidence of this, you don't have a right to make such
> complaints.

Technically, no I do not. It's not because he will be cashing money
next month or next year that he is not making money. He is making
money because he is getting paid subscription to a service whose main
contribution is to 'make Sage available'.

Now, he is also earning money as he said himself on the recent thread:


https://www.reddit.com/r/math/comments/45q7j1/sagemath_open_source_is_now_ready_to_compete_with/
Monthly recurring revenue is currently $5K and server costs are $3.5K.

1500$ is of the right magnitude for a salary: I'm paid 200euros a
months. If things go well, in some months he will be making by selling
an 'online Sage' as much as I do by working (partly on Sage, for
free).

He made the claim, however, that he had been losing money until now:
for this reason, it would not matter in the least if he were using
this money for himself as it would just cover what he already lost on
his personal money.

And then, some time from now, he will start earning a 'net benefit' in
the same way.

You will not know, I will not know (unless he makes it public), but
then he will start earning money off Sage, the product he 'makes
available'. You will probably agree with me on this point, for in the
second part of your email the points 1) 2) 3) are actually meant to
show that WIlliam *deserves* it. Because he started it, because he
currently sweats on it, etc..

I do not doubt that William sees it the same way: he started it, he
tries to promote it, he worked a lot on it, so why wouldn't he earn
money with it ? So it wouldn't be fair to tell me that I have no proof
that he is making personal money with it, when you yourself suggest
that:
1) He has the means
2) You think that it would be fair

Thus, I think that you and I agree on:
3) He will, when SMC will earn enough

My problem, here, lies in the other points you raised.

> Secondly, as you have worked out by now, SageMathCloud is not Sage.

You cannot say that, because here the confusion is deliberately maintained:
1) Sagemath.com is a SMC website
2) William's company is SageMath Inc.

I also remember a discussion about getting funding from some
association for Sage (which if I recall correctly ended up paying for
Mathematica licenses), when it was clear that the money would be spent
on SMC.

This very post, whose title is about Sage, turns out to be an
advertisement for SMC:


http://sagemath.blogspot.fr/2016/02/open-source-is-now-ready-to-directly.html

So no, you cannot say that "SageMathCloud is not Sage". Of course they
are different, but SageMathCloud's main advertised product is Sage.
And the name of the for-profit company is SageMath. And the website is
SageMath. Those are hints people have to take.

> SageMathCloud is a generic service for running Sage, R, Julia, writing PDF's
> collaboratively, and running a huge variety of other open source software. I
> personally have and pay for a SageMathCloud account. I have never used it,
> as far as I can recall, for running Sage. I have extensively used it for
> writing pdf's and have used it for running Julia, Flint and other things I
> work on.

This previous paragraph, I take as a convenient evasion of the truth.
Look at what SMC promotes, and you will see what they sell. The name
of the company is not JuliaCloud, and you cannot try to say that it is
a coincidence. William's blog posts are about Sage.

> 1) Sage is one of the pieces of software that can be run on SMC. The better
> Sage is, the more students will use Sage, and some of those users will use
> SMC. Some of them, or more likely their professors, will pay for SMC
> accounts. So improving Sage will very indirectly help increase the revenue
> SageMath Inc makes. So you are right on this point.

Thank you for conceding it.

> 2) SageMath Inc is William's company, even if he isn't currently paid a
> salary by that company and even if he is currently 

Re: [sage-devel] Re: sage on hacker news right now...

[Nathann Cohen]

> NetworkX is a standard package in Sage, so everything in NetworkX is in Sage.

Sigh 

Nathann

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"sage-devel" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to sage-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

Re: [sage-devel] Re: For whoever cares about undergrads (or wants to help William earn more money)

[Nathann Cohen]

> I did not say *you*. I said *everybody*. I forgot to add *apart from few
> lucky bastards*.

I can't believe that I am the one to tell you that you don't know when
to stop. Let's give up, Dima.

Nathann

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"sage-devel" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to sage-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

Re: [sage-devel] Re: For whoever cares about undergrads (or wants to help William earn more money)

[Nathann Cohen]

> Wrong example. There is no such thing like a brothel subscription in this
> case, for if you walk to the "brothel" called Sagemath, it would be totally
> free.

Indeed. In the present situation it would be the "Free ladies for any
paying ride".

> Nonsense. A taxi saying Louvre on it merely brings you to Louvre. (Surely,
> taking a metro is also an option, basically free, compared to Paris taxi
> fares)

Just yesterday I learnt a cheap way to get to Orly. PM me if you care.

Nathann

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"sage-devel" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to sage-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

Re: [sage-devel] Re: sage on hacker news right now...

[Nathann Cohen]

Yo,

> combinatorial geometry. Unfortunately I don't know enough about graph theory
> to say how Sage compares with any other CAS, but I would think we compare
> quite well. Nathann?

I've got no idea. I never used the graph theory library of any other
CAS, and the independent graph libraries I met were never as
comprehensive as Sage in terms of "graph theory". What I mean by that
is that some, like NetworkX, are focused on 'networks' and so have
some statistics defined on them that Sage does not have. I don't
expect that any of these features would be hard to add in Sage,
however.

Nathann

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"sage-devel" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to sage-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

Re: [sage-devel] Re: For whoever cares about undergrads (or wants to help William earn more money)

[Nathann Cohen]

>> In the long run, I don't see how SMC will make me "more secure
>> financially".
>
> You? Is it the only person you care about?

What the hell man. You tell *me* that I would benefit financially in
the long run. I merely asked what you meant. That's all that happened.

Nathann

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"sage-devel" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to sage-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

Re: [sage-devel] Re: For whoever cares about undergrads (or wants to help William earn more money)

[Nathann Cohen]

> Anyhow, if a taxi driver takes you to a brothel it does not mean that he
> sells sex. All he sells are rides.

Unless he camps the airport with a sign reading "Special brothel deal:
free rides for any 1-year brothel subscription".

SageMathCloud "sells" Sage. Or it wouldn't use 'sagemath.com' as a
website. Not seeing it is being willing to bend the truth *very* far.

Nathann

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"sage-devel" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to sage-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

Re: [sage-devel] Re: For whoever cares about undergrads (or wants to help William earn more money)

[Nathann Cohen]

> You asked how people benefit financially from the success of Sage.
> And I am telling you that you yourself are a jolly good example of such
> person.
> Admit this and stop posting these meaningless flamebites.

"(in the long run improvements to Sage make everyone involved in the
project more secure financially, yourself including, no?)"

In the long run, I don't see how SMC will make me "more secure financially".

I did benefit from Sage's global success in the past indeed, as saying
"I contributed X patches to Sage" is not the same as "I created my own
unknown graph library". That's dead right.

Nathann

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"sage-devel" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to sage-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

Re: [sage-devel] Re: For whoever cares about undergrads (or wants to help William earn more money)

[Nathann Cohen]

> But that is how open source works. Same applies to, for example, Apache.
>
> So, what stops me (or William or whoever) doing that? I should integrate my
> own modifications to every new version of Sage. After several Sage versions
> and many own additions it would propably be quite tricky. So best business
> plan could well be using official version, and maybe sometimes doing some
> own additions available to all.

Nothing stops you, and I don't see a single place in this conversation
where I said that you were not allowed to.

To make it clear: you are allowed to.

> An open source developer might be a jew making a draw program. An open
> source user might be a neo-nazi drawing swastikas. Any open source developer
> must accept this.

As a Jew, I contributed to a GPL software which may someday be used
for the extermination of all Jews without breaking its license. I am
aware of the fact, and I kept on contributing while fully aware of it.

Nathann

P.S.: In case somebody misread: William is legally entitled to sell SMC
P.S.2: Really, he has the right to. The GPL allows it. I swear.

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"sage-devel" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to sage-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

Re: [sage-devel] Re: For whoever cares about undergrads (or wants to help William earn more money)

[Nathann Cohen]

> Why should SageMath be removed? I can't follow you.

I tell you that William sells a software, and you say "no he does
not". I agreed with you that technically he does not, he sells a
service. The service being (mostly) to make Sage available easily, I
answered that "SMC without Sage does not make much sense". That was
all.

Nathann

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"sage-devel" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to sage-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

Re: [sage-devel] Re: For whoever cares about undergrads (or wants to help William earn more money)

[Nathann Cohen]

Dear SageMath (Inc) employee,

> As I already wrote you a long time ago a simple to understand fact: by
> contributing to GPL licensed software, you somehow must have agreed to the
> terms of the GPL software. Have you, or haven't you?

I have absolutely no problem with that.

> Where is William selling any software?

He sells SMC accounts. True, it is not a software. Remove Sage from
SMC, and you can't call sell SMC accounts, though.

Nathann

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"sage-devel" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to sage-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

Re: [sage-devel] Re: For whoever cares about undergrads (or wants to help William earn more money)

[Nathann Cohen]

Most importantly, those of you who see no problem in being his free
worker and want to help new users seem to have a *lot* of free time to
argue on pointless threads, but 19953 it still in needs_review.

Nathann

On 15 February 2016 at 15:31, Nathann Cohen <nathann.co...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> No, you get it wrong: the goal of SMC is to make funds available for further
>> Sage development, and
>> lower the barrier to use Sage.
>
> The goal of Coca Cola is to make drinks that people like.
> The goal of Apple is to build devices that make it easy for people to
> use computers.
>
>> While the  former seems to be lagging, the
>> latter is surely a huge
>> improvement over over-loaded public SageNB servers. Or do you mean that you
>> don't care about an average Sage
>> user?
>
> I care about average users, as I showed it repeatedly in the past. I
> just don't want to work for free for a guy who sells a software,
> that's all.
>
> Nathann

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"sage-devel" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to sage-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

Re: [sage-devel] Re: For whoever cares about undergrads (or wants to help William earn more money)

[Nathann Cohen]

> No, you get it wrong: the goal of SMC is to make funds available for further
> Sage development, and
> lower the barrier to use Sage.

The goal of Coca Cola is to make drinks that people like.
The goal of Apple is to build devices that make it easy for people to
use computers.

> While the  former seems to be lagging, the
> latter is surely a huge
> improvement over over-loaded public SageNB servers. Or do you mean that you
> don't care about an average Sage
> user?

I care about average users, as I showed it repeatedly in the past. I
just don't want to work for free for a guy who sells a software,
that's all.

Nathann

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"sage-devel" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to sage-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

Re: [sage-devel] Re: For whoever cares about undergrads (or wants to help William earn more money)

[Nathann Cohen]

> imagine all your software written in some MMa (or even worse, in some
> obscure
> commercial and dead by then system), not in Sage, at the time you
> applied for your current job. Estimate your chances of success.

?...

So I owe him to work for free for his company ?

Nathann

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"sage-devel" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to sage-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

Re: [sage-devel] Re: For whoever cares about undergrads (or wants to help William earn more money)

[Nathann Cohen]

> Perhaps this is intended as merely flamebait, but I'll bite. Knowing
> William, I doubt that selling the SMC is likely.

HeyHeyHey it is not a bait, and not even a question. Dima told me that
SMC made everybody more secure financially. Ask him what he meant by
that. The only way I see to be more secure financially is to earn more
money, hence my question, that's all.

If you understand what he meant, however, perhaps you can help.

Nathann

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"sage-devel" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to sage-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

Re: [sage-devel] Re: For whoever cares about undergrads (or wants to help William earn more money)

[Nathann Cohen]

> But is there anything to stop others doing that also?

No, it is legal.

> I could put up my own company, buy servers, set up Sage and sell accounts.
> IIRC I could even modify the code and sell accounts to Sage server with some
> extra functionality.

Indeed, you can. And you will also stop contributing to Sage to pursue
your own individual interest and work on what can earn you money,
hoping that those who stay behind will ensure the maintenance and
improvements.

Nathann

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"sage-devel" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to sage-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

Re: [sage-devel] Re: For whoever cares about undergrads (or wants to help William earn more money)

[Nathann Cohen]

> surely there are potentially huge, enormous profits to be made from selling
> a site that
> only runs open-source software, all hosted on github; this must be a novel
> business model...
>
> it is true that SMC just started to break even a month ago, before that
> William
> was actually burning his money...
> https://plus.google.com/115360165819500279592/posts/6XZV9NfGSP1
> https://plus.google.com/115360165819500279592/posts/5hxiQyKBuUT
>
> For comparison you might also want to look at the following  figures:
> http://state-employees.findthedata.com/l/10107565/William-A-Stein

Well. At first he was spending his money in the hope of earning money,
and now he earns money.

That's good for him. The fact that he now sells our collective work
but keeps the benefits, however, is another story.

Nathann

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"sage-devel" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to sage-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

Re: [sage-devel] Re: For whoever cares about undergrads (or wants to help William earn more money)

[Nathann Cohen]

> Being an advanced Sage user or developer is a small plus when applying a job
> at university.

I am already hired at a university. When I don't work on research I
work for Sage, for free. Meanwhile, Williams sells the product of this
collective work, for cash.

That's all I am saying.

And of course, because I don't like seeing people getting paid for
other people's work, I don't feel any urge to improve his customer
base for free.

It has very practical implications: this morning I was about to
rewrite/improve our tutorial on function plotting, because it was
mentionned several times as something which bothers novices.

I chose not to, because I can't bear to do this work knowing that he
will benefit from it. For indeed, what would the opposite mean? That
he is taking Sage as a hostage, and that I am forced to work for him
because I want to work for Sage. And no, I won't do that.

Nathann

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"sage-devel" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to sage-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

Re: [sage-devel] Re: For whoever cares about undergrads (or wants to help William earn more money)

[Nathann Cohen]

> \begin{flame}
> I cannot help noticing that any Sage improvement potentially makes William
> make more $$$
> (in the long run improvements to Sage make everyone involved in the project
> more secure financially, yourself including, no?)

How so ? Do I get a share of William's profits when he sells SMC ?

Because it seems that he earns money with our free work here.

Nathann

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"sage-devel" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to sage-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

[sage-devel] For whoever cares about undergrads (or wants to help William earn more money)

[Nathann Cohen]

Hello everybody,

This is triggered by the thread about 'not-so-nice' comments about Sage.

If you want to help william earn more $$ than he has now (by working
for free) or if you want to help Sage be more welcoming to novice
users (*), a first step would be to help this guy:

http://trac.sagemath.org/ticket/19953

Nathann

(*) Sadly you cannot do one without doing the other now. Well, I guess
I just won't do it then.

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"sage-devel" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to sage-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

Re: [sage-devel] Re: sage on hacker news right now...

[Nathann Cohen]

> There's a big reddit discussion in which a lot of people say
> not-so-nice  things about Sage:
>
>  
> https://www.reddit.com/r/math/comments/45q7j1/sagemath_open_source_is_now_ready_to_compete_with/

What do you think about doing something smart?

-> We write to the guys who complain about the software and ask
them to give us more concrete examples, so that we learn and fix them.
The first one, the guy who mentions bad doc and useless functions
surely has some stories to tell..

For my part, I would really love it if those who know the code
involved could finally get rid of the  broken functions that
everybody inherit from element:

N, base_extend, base_ring, db, dump, dumps, is_zero, n,
numerical_approx, rename, reset, subs, substitute.

You will see them in combinatorial objects (there is no notion of .n()
there, e.g. Partition object), you will see them in places where no
base ring makes sense (PermutationGroupElement has a .base_ring), you
will see them in immutable objects (no 'rename'), you will see them
where no substitution makes sense.

Those functions raise exceptions when called, and do not make sense.

Additionally, it is important to remember for whoever implements
public methods in *very* generic classes that the method names must
also make sense in the context of subclasses, and that this is *very*
hard to ensure.

If some of you like the idea, I really don't mind trying to ask the
guys on the thread to tell their stories.

Nathann

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"sage-devel" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to sage-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

Re: [sage-devel] sage -docbuild fails ? O_o

[Nathann Cohen]

Since that happened, and without checking any other version of Sage than 
the latest beta, I encountered the problem several times.

Running 'make' seems to 'fix the state' and then the -docbuild command 
works again, for a while.

I have not been able to pinpoint what exactly made it fail again.

Nathann

On Monday, February 8, 2016 at 1:41:00 PM UTC+1, Nathann Cohen wrote:
>
> > Did you run "make" before running "./sage --docbuild..."? 
>
> I thought that I had, and running 'make' did not produce any 
> significant output, but it indeed solved my problem. Sorry for the 
> noise and thanks for the help O_o 
>
> Nathann 
>

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"sage-devel" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to sage-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

Re: [sage-devel] Semiautomatic way for better "What's new" -file

[Nathann Cohen]

It sounds to me like a good idea. We could build a list of those
tickets right before a public release and publish it somehow, with
links toward the tickets.

It would mean trying our best to make the tickets title/description a
bit more "user-friendly" than usual, and it might comfort those of us
who are always worried about our users being taken aback by the new
changes introduced by an update.

Of course that's only useful if we all agree on something like that
and try to enforce it all together.

Nathann

On 9 February 2016 at 20:53, Jori Mäntysalo  wrote:
> Slightly related to #20026, i.e. changing default colors for a small part of
> Sage:
>
> Could we have a specific trac keyword for user-visible changes? Then we
> could make a semi-automatic "What's new in version X" better. Anything that
> deprecates something should always have that keyword set. But not only them,
> also those tickets that change some default value.
>
> As an example, some versions ago .plot() for poset gave the picture
> upside-down with dot2tex installed. Ticket correcting that would have the
> keyword set.
>
> (Warning: Got the idea 15 minutes ago. Can be a very bad idea.)
>
> --
> Jori Mäntysalo

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"sage-devel" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to sage-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

[sage-devel] Default colors of Matrix.plot

[Nathann Cohen]

Hello everybody,

Another trivial change is turning into an insufferable waste of time.
As is customary, we solve it by maximizing the amount of people
wasting their time on the problem. Here it is:

sage: matrix.identity(15).plot(cmap='gray') # 1 is white and 0 is black
sage: matrix.identity(15).plot(cmap='Greys') # 1 is black and 0 is white

Sage's default is the first of those two:

sage: matrix.identity(15).plot() # 1 is white and 0 is black

I found it rather unpleasant that '1', the highest value, is the same
as the background color, when '0' is the most appearant color: black.

I opened a ticket to change the default, and of course somebody complained:

http://trac.sagemath.org/ticket/20026

I asked a lot of people around me (without hinting at my preference)
and everybody agreed that what #20026 implements is the most natural
choice. I let you decide, I'm bored at seeing that each line I
contibute to Sage means 3 hours wasted on senseless discussions.

Nathann

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"sage-devel" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to sage-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

Re: [sage-devel] Re: Default colors of Matrix.plot

[Nathann Cohen]

> To be clear, this is *literally* bikeshedding...

Billed to the tax-payer, at least in my case.

> I'm just not always a fan of these defaults being chosen by whoever bothers
> to take an interest when non-developing users (which we should expect more
> of given SMC's growth) may not be represented in such discussions. I
> understand that this may be a minority viewpoint on sage-devel.

You cannot claim to be talking on behalf of all non-developing users, of course:

1) Some non-developing users may dislike the former standard.
2) Some non-develping users may use 'cmap="Grays"' to get a decent picture.
3) The *future* users (and that's a lot of people, right?!) do not
care for a legacy-but-bad standard and would prefer to get something
trustworthy from the start.

So it seems that you are talking on behalf of non-developing users who
are used to this standard and may even like it. Problem is, we don't
know if this set is empty of even represents more that 1% of the
total.

But words wrap it all up into a "think of the children" cry, and
that's more powerful than any argumentation.

Nathann

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"sage-devel" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to sage-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

Re: [sage-devel] sage -docbuild fails ? O_o

[Nathann Cohen]

> Did you run "make" before running "./sage --docbuild..."?

I thought that I had, and running 'make' did not produce any
significant output, but it indeed solved my problem. Sorry for the
noise and thanks for the help O_o

Nathann

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"sage-devel" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to sage-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

[sage-devel] sage -docbuild fails ? O_o

[Nathann Cohen]

Hello everybody,

I installed a fresh Sage on a new computer, and I get a weird message
when trying to build the doc:

   ~$ sage -docbuild reference/graphs html
   /home/ncohen/.Sage/local/bin/python: No module named interrupt;
'sage_setup.docbuild' is a package and cannot be directly executed

It is particularly weird when 'make doc-html' works fine (though takes
much longer).

This happens with the directory in the state of the latest develop branch.

Nathann

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"sage-devel" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to sage-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

Re: [sage-devel] Re: Output of Matrix.plot() depends on whether the Matrix is sparse of dense

[Nathann Cohen]

> To get back to the original issue, this has been the case for many years - I
> guess implemented in http://trac.sagemath.org/ticket/6554 ?  See there for
> the original design decision rationale - unless it was even earlier...  I
> don't have an opinion on this but people who want sparse matrices to stay
> sparse may.

Nobody ever suggested that plotting the matrix shoud convert it to a
dense matrix.

Nathann

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"sage-devel" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to sage-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

Re: [sage-devel] Re: Output of Matrix.plot() depends on whether the Matrix is sparse of dense

[Nathann Cohen]

> Yes, this is a more universal problem in the UI:

I object. It is a *very* simple mistake that has a *very* simple solution:

Any function that takes **kwargs as argument must:
1) Remove from kwargs all values it understands
2) Forward the remaining content of kwargs to a subfunction

There is no way on earth that stuff will get lost if you use this very
simple logic. Any additional keyword will raise an exception
eventually.

> It would be nice if we can find an easy to use, low (zero?) overhead way of
> getting better checking on unknown keywords. I don't have a solution (python
> definitely seems to invite the lax way we're doing it)

I propose the pattern above, which was used successfully to make the
graph plot routines somewhat trustworthy (at least from this point of
view).

Nathann

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"sage-devel" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to sage-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

Re: [sage-devel] Re: Output of Matrix.plot() depends on whether the Matrix is sparse of dense

[Nathann Cohen]

> I suppose you meant to add a third rule
> 3) In any branch where a **kwargs -taking function does not call another
> function it forwards the **kwargs argument to, it must raise an error if any
> unrecognized kwargs are left.

I thought about it for a moment, and wondered if there was any
situation were using **kwargs was the right tool in a function that
did not forward its input to anything. I couldn't find any.

It all seems to boild down to what is being said in other threads:
- Don't use **kwargs for whichever arguments are used internally
- Use **kwargs for what will be forwarded (and *do* forward it, for
the subcall will check that everything is actually read/used inside
it)

Nathann

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"sage-devel" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to sage-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

Re: [sage-devel] Re: Output of Matrix.plot() depends on whether the Matrix is sparse of dense

[Nathann Cohen]

In particular, we cannot consider each function with such a bug to be
'just an instance of a more general problem'. They have to be fixed
one by one, especially when the function involved is perhaps the most
common constructor function new users will call.

There was some talk here of making Sage more user-friendly for new
math students: if that really is an important goal for people here, we
can't have matrix ignore its input without even a warning.

Nathann

On 5 February 2016 at 17:08, Nathann Cohen <nathann.co...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Yes, this is a more universal problem in the UI:
>
> I object. It is a *very* simple mistake that has a *very* simple solution:
>
> Any function that takes **kwargs as argument must:
> 1) Remove from kwargs all values it understands
> 2) Forward the remaining content of kwargs to a subfunction
>
> There is no way on earth that stuff will get lost if you use this very
> simple logic. Any additional keyword will raise an exception
> eventually.
>
>> It would be nice if we can find an easy to use, low (zero?) overhead way of
>> getting better checking on unknown keywords. I don't have a solution (python
>> definitely seems to invite the lax way we're doing it)
>
> I propose the pattern above, which was used successfully to make the
> graph plot routines somewhat trustworthy (at least from this point of
> view).
>
> Nathann

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"sage-devel" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to sage-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

Re: [sage-devel] Re: Output of Matrix.plot() depends on whether the Matrix is sparse of dense

[Nathann Cohen]

> In general, though, I think it's worth emphasizing **kwargs incurs a dict
> copy anyway. That means that the difference in cost of calling signatures
> def f(a=optional,**kwargs) versus def f(**kwargs) is not as big as you might
> initially guess. I suspect that the verbosity of the former might lead
> people to believe it has a higher price (I thought so).

Whoever made the design choice of using **kwargs instead of regular
parameters for performances reasons should be beaten with a spoon.

Nathann

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"sage-devel" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to sage-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

Re: [sage-devel] Re: Output of Matrix.plot() depends on whether the Matrix is sparse of dense

[Nathann Cohen]

Dear Nils,

Ddo not doubt that you and I (and everybody else) agrees that the
current behaviour of subs (*) is the desired behaviour.

This discussion is about the obvious cases where **kwargs is wrongly
used, e.g. in Matrix. I saw it happen in many places already. I even
saw this one:

def a_function(**kwargs):
pass

These situations must be remediated, and you should not fear that any
of us will change anything to the behaviour of polynomials or
expressions on this respect. That was never our intention.

Nathann

(*) I meant 'raising nothing' and not 'returning nothing' in my first
message, sorry.

On 5 February 2016 at 22:02, Nils Bruin <nbr...@sfu.ca> wrote:
> On Friday, February 5, 2016 at 12:46:54 PM UTC-8, Nathann Cohen wrote:
>>
>> > Well, the call syntax for polynomials and symbolic expressions really
>> > benefits from arbitrary keywords.
>>
>> Yeah, I guess there is nothing wrong with
>> "an_expression.subs(whatever=4)" returning nothing even though
>> 'whatever' is not a variable appearing in an_expression.
>
>
> It returning nothing would probably be quite bad, and I don't think that's
> what happens. Whether an error or just an_expression unchanged is more
> appropriate depends on the context.
> In any case, whether "whatever" is a valid keyword can only be decided at
> runtime, so you're stuck with "**kwargs".
>
> And indeed, in the symbolic ring it's problematic on whether an error should
> be raised. You do want
>
> f = x
> g = x^2
> f(x=1)^2-g(x=1)
>
> to work, but you would probably expect that
>
> h = f^2-g
> h(x=1)
>
> to work too (and in the latter, no x occurs, of course).
>
> However,
>
> sage: f=QQ['x'].0
> sage: f(y=0)
> x
>
> would probably be better off ending in an error.
>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> "sage-devel" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an
> email to sage-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
> To post to this group, send email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com.
> Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel.
> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"sage-devel" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to sage-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

Re: [sage-devel] Re: Output of Matrix.plot() depends on whether the Matrix is sparse of dense

[Nathann Cohen]

> Well, the call syntax for polynomials and symbolic expressions really
> benefits from arbitrary keywords.

Yeah, I guess there is nothing wrong with
"an_expression.subs(whatever=4)" returning nothing even though
'whatever' is not a variable appearing in an_expression.

Nathann

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"sage-devel" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to sage-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

Re: [sage-devel] Getting reminders for tickets in needs_work

[Nathann Cohen]

> There many useful trac reports which can be used instead of this, for
> example http://trac.sagemath.org/report/57 is what you want I guess.

This only works if everybody checks that page regularly, which is not
the case. Hell, even getting a message if a ticket in needs_work has
not been touched for *6 months* would avoid situations like this. And
it honestly couldn't be called 'spamming' at this rate.

Forgotten tickets are clearly wasted work ...

Nathann

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"sage-devel" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to sage-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

Re: [sage-devel] Meaning of log2 etc.

[Nathann Cohen]

log2 and pi seem to be of the same race:

https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/sage-devel/Oi3bLbO5eO0

Nathann

On 5 February 2016 at 08:04, Jori Mäntysalo  wrote:
> Can somebody explain what is the meaning of "log2" in the global namespace?
> log2? says "- - we need to make sure this at least does not leave log2._gobj
> uninitialized - -".
>
>  * * *
>
> log? says "See log? for more information about its behavior." Duh.
>
> log_gamma? has broken docstring formatting. Also, should "Gamma function" be
> written in capital?
>
>  * * *
>
> Why we have log_b() with default base e and log() that always use base e?
>
>  * * *
>
> Lastly, I don't like our function aliases. I had to check by log == ln that
> these two functions are just aliases. IMO having one-line docstring "Alias
> for ..." would be better.
>
> --
> Jori Mäntysalo

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"sage-devel" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to sage-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

[sage-devel] Getting reminders for tickets in needs_work

[Nathann Cohen]

Hello everybody !

Because of another thread here, I noticed this ticket:

http://trac.sagemath.org/ticket/16871

It was in `positive_review` 14 months ago, was set back to
`needs_work` because of a (minor?) problem in the doc, and apparently
forgotten since.

I was just wondering if this situation was worth getting some script
running (I can give it a try): every week or so it would run, and if a
ticket has been in needs_work for more than a month with no comment on
it, the script would add a message on the trac ticket. Something like
"Hey guys, have you forgotten about me?".

What do you think ?

Nathann

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"sage-devel" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to sage-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

Re: [sage-devel] Getting reminders for tickets in needs_work

[Nathann Cohen]

> Fine for me, provided that
>
> 1. The e-mail goes only to the author(s) of the ticket, not to all people
> cc'ed in that ticket.
> 2. The e-mail gets sent a finite number of times per ticket (say, once after
> 1 month and once after 6 months).

I don't know how to guess a ticket's author, especially since it is
often not filled before a positive_review. Sending a message to the
ticket saying "have you forgotten me?" seemed the easiest way to go.

You know what ? I'll just add this thing on the heap on which I store
the ideas you oppose by requesting things I cannot do, with the
"Testing CPLEX/Maple/Matlab" and "spkg-src" tickets.

Forget it.

Nathann

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"sage-devel" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to sage-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

Re: [sage-devel] Getting reminders for tickets in needs_work

[Nathann Cohen]

> What did I request that you cannot do regarding "spkg-src"? I am still in
> favour of improving spkg-src.

Oh, Right. It seems that I actually accepted all your requests on this
ticket. Crazy. Either way Volker will never let it pass, so let's give
this up.

Don't you want to do something with the Matlab/Maple ticket however ?

http://trac.sagemath.org/ticket/18904

This is way more important, but I obviously cannot decide by myself
which versions of third-party softwares we support, and which doctests
can be run with which version of Maple/Matlab/whatever.

Nathann

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"sage-devel" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to sage-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

Re: [sage-devel] How are number field elements sorted?

[Nathann Cohen]

If the default comparison on your objects is not a total order there
is no guarantee that the output of a sorting algorithm (name any that
you know) will give you a unique output.

sage: sorted([{1,2},{3,4}])
[{1, 2}, {3, 4}]
sage: sorted([{3,4},{1,2}])
[{3, 4}, {1, 2}]

Which comes from:

sage: {3,4} < {1,2}
False
sage: {3,4} > {1,2}
False

Nathann


On 5 February 2016 at 11:39, John Cremona  wrote:
> I have two lists of 6 (relative) number field elements:  they are the
> same up to a permutation, as revealed by turning each into a set, but
> the do not sort to the same list!
>
> sage: type(L1)
> 
> sage: type(L2)
> 
> sage: type(L1[0])
>  'sage.rings.number_field.number_field_element.NumberFieldElement_relative'>
> sage: type(L2[0])
>  'sage.rings.number_field.number_field_element.NumberFieldElement_relative'>
> sage: len(L1)==len(L2)==6
> True
>
> sage: L1==L2
> False
> sage: set(L1)==set(L2)
> True
> sage: sorted(L1)==sorted(L2)
> False
>
> This is causing a doctest to fail randomly, since in the code I apply
> a sort function to such lists and the output is not always the same.
> (See #19229, where one patchbot is happy but another is not;  none of
> the changes in that ticket affect the relevant code at all.)
>
> John
>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
> "sage-devel" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an 
> email to sage-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
> To post to this group, send email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com.
> Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel.
> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"sage-devel" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to sage-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

[sage-devel] Output of Matrix.plot() depends on whether the Matrix is sparse of dense

[Nathann Cohen]

Hello everybody,

I am writing here to share an inconsistency with the behaviour of Matrix.plot:

When M is sparse:
M.plot() shows which entries of M are nonzero.

When M is dense:
M.plot() shows M with colors representing the value of each cell.

Let me add to that:

sage: Matrix(whatever=58)
[]

And while I am at it:

sage: M=Matrix({(2,2):3})
sage: M
[0 0 0]
[0 0 0]
[0 0 3]
sage: M=Matrix({(2,2):3}); M.is_sparse()
True
sage: Matrix(M,sparse=False).is_sparse()
True
sage: Matrix(M.rows()).is_sparse()
False
sage: Matrix(M.rows(),sparse=True).is_sparse()
True
sage: Matrix(M.rows(),sparse=False).is_sparse()
False

Of course, trying to figure this out while using
Matrix(dense=whatever) complicated matters, given that (as seen above)
the argument 'dense' is ignored.

Nathann

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"sage-devel" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to sage-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

Re: [sage-devel] Re: cannot post comments on trac #19984

[Nathann Cohen]

Hello everybody,

Just reporting that the same happened to me today. I tried to post four 
times on #19451 (forgetting *every single time* to save my message before 
hitting 'submit'), and no luck so far. It waits, it waits, it waits, then 
gives up.

Nathann

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"sage-devel" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to sage-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

Re: [sage-devel] Re: Can anyone provide access to recent Intel or AMD machines?

[Nathann Cohen]

> It's obviously an evil plan between the two entities to fund more drinks for
> software developers. Note that Sage ODK is an anagram for keg + soda.

And God knows that we *need* more soda.

Nathann

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"sage-devel" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to sage-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

Re: [sage-devel] Re: Can anyone provide access to recent Intel or AMD machines?

[Nathann Cohen]

> you cannot do this from a free account, due to e.g. DDOS attacks launched
> from free SMC accounts in the past.
> We can get you ODK-paid accounts if you like.

Ahahahah. Isn't that money-laundering? Having ODK pay SMC, so that you
can use the SMC money for whatever you like without writing reports ?
:-P

Nathann

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"sage-devel" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to sage-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

Re: [sage-devel] Re: Forking/patching of upstream projects

[Nathann Cohen]

> Since when creating a public git repo of something is called forking?

In the present, upstream explained that the software was barely
updated anymore (last update was 5 years ago) and that there are no
plans to change it in the close future (except possible bugfixes).
*if* such a thing were to ever happen, we could easily update the repo
and stay compatible with upstream.

Would it change the situation for you if upstream agreed to make the
tarball produced by Dima on his website? Is it just a question of
*where* the tarball is to be downloaded?

Nathann

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"sage-devel" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to sage-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

Re: [sage-devel] Developing in general

[Nathann Cohen]

I'm sorry to insist, but if everybody agreed that I am wrong to dislike a
design pattern, that still would not force me to click on "positive review"
if I do not want to.

Nathann
Le 25 janv. 2016 14:47, "Jori Mäntysalo"  a écrit :

> On Mon, 25 Jan 2016, Jeroen Demeyer wrote:
>
> But what if -- a slightly artificial example -- I make function A that
>>> uses Poset as a wrapper, function B that does not, then Nathann reviews
>>> A and Travis reviews B...?
>>>
>>
> In such a case you should try to agree with everybody which of the two
>> approaches is best and just use that.
>>
>
> "With everybody" is impossible. Would there be, say, 30 people "voting" I
> could say that by numbers 20-10 we have decided to do this in style X and
> not in style Y. But numbers 2-1 does not seem so strong base for decision.
> There could be a leader to say that "we use style X and those who like
> style Y can fork their own version", but we don't have one.
>
> --
> Jori Mäntysalo

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"sage-devel" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to sage-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

Re: [sage-devel] Re: Developing in general

[Nathann Cohen]

> Examples of not "getting" code review from this thread:
> * At review of some small addition we start a general discussions about what
> Poset should do and then everybody votes on that
> * Dislike of change/design pattern/author/..., hence I'm not reviewing this
> * I just make some comments on the ticket but would never set it to positive
> review.

In the last two cases, I do not think that there is anything irregular
when the reviewer can explain:
1) What he believes to be wrong
2) Why
3) How to fix it

It is then the author's right to refuse the proposed changes, and it
is the reviewer's right to not accept a patch he disagrees with.

And really, I don't think that we could devise a new set of rule that
could solve this kind of dead-end situations.

Nathann

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"sage-devel" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to sage-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

Re: [sage-devel] Re: Developing in general

[Nathann Cohen]

> That thinking is precisely whats wrong here, there is no dead end. If you
> dislike how Poset is being used then change it or get over it. But sulking
> in your corner with this never-compromising obstructionist attitude is
not a
> way forward.

"Sulking in my corner with this never-compromising obstructionist attitude".

Gosh.

I have no idea what you think I am, but I don't decide by myself what makes
it into Sage code, and what does not. I do not particularly care about
Posets either: I barely ever used them and I review Jori's patches from
time to time, as otherwise he will wait forever for somebody else to do it.

(that's apparently 40 tickets)

http://trac.sagemath.org/query?status=closed=~Nathann=~Jori=id=summary=status=owner=type=priority=milestone=priority

Then, I have my own notion of good work but I don't force anybody to follow
it. You can't force me to give it up either, can you?

If you want a specific ticket to pass, it's easy: go there and click on
'positive_review'. That's all it takes.

I won't fight, I won't even complain. I won't think much of it, actually.

Cheers,

Nathann

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"sage-devel" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to sage-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

Re: [sage-devel] Re: Developing in general

[Nathann Cohen]

> Examples of not "getting" code review from this thread:
> * At review of some small addition we start a general discussions about what
> Poset should do and then everybody votes on that
> * Dislike of change/design pattern/author/..., hence I'm not reviewing this
> * I just make some comments on the ticket but would never set it to positive
> review.
>
> On Monday, January 25, 2016 at 3:27:09 AM UTC-5, Jori Mäntysalo wrote:
>>
>> There was a discussion between I, Travis and Nathann about
>> HasseDiagram-Poset; maybe a year ago there was discussion about 'self' in
>> docstrings.
>>
>> I have made some simple functions to add to Sage. Most of them have been
>> reviewed and accepted. Now, if I ask Nathann to review a function that
>> uses Poset class only as a wrapper, he rejects them (but makes good
>> suggestions for the code). If Travis is reviewing, he rejects
>> modifications where "self" is changed to "this thing" (but makes good
>> suggestions for the docstring). (Well, I can also ask Frédéric and get a
>> positive review (with good comments about making the code
>> PEP-compliance).)
>>
>> This is kind of complicated. If this is just me, then forget this mail.
>> But do other have similar feelings about need of common view of some
>> details?
>>
>> --
>> Jori Mäntysalo
>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> "sage-devel" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an
> email to sage-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
> To post to this group, send email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com.
> Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel.
> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"sage-devel" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to sage-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

Re: [sage-devel] Developing in general

[Nathann Cohen]

Hello Jori,

When in front of a patch I do not agree with, the least harmful thing I can
do to the author's work is to not review it. Especially when I consider
that it is only a matter of taste, and thus do not oppose any positive
review given by somebody else to the very same patch.

Especially when I still read the code and try to find improvements, while
knowing that I will not review it in the end.

The incitation, however, looks healthy: when your code is being reviewed,
your code will pass faster if you can reach an agreement with the
reviewer...

I don't see how we could be led to have a unified view on things, however.
This software is the common work of people who care enough about it to
disagree on very minor details :-)

Nathann
Le 25 janv. 2016 09:27, "Jori Mäntysalo"  a écrit :

> There was a discussion between I, Travis and Nathann about
> HasseDiagram-Poset; maybe a year ago there was discussion about 'self' in
> docstrings.
>
> I have made some simple functions to add to Sage. Most of them have been
> reviewed and accepted. Now, if I ask Nathann to review a function that uses
> Poset class only as a wrapper, he rejects them (but makes good suggestions
> for the code). If Travis is reviewing, he rejects modifications where
> "self" is changed to "this thing" (but makes good suggestions for the
> docstring). (Well, I can also ask Frédéric and get a positive review (with
> good comments about making the code PEP-compliance).)
>
> This is kind of complicated. If this is just me, then forget this mail.
> But do other have similar feelings about need of common view of some
> details?
>
> --
> Jori Mäntysalo
>

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"sage-devel" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to sage-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

[sage-devel] Matrix unicode output

[Nathann Cohen]

Hello everybody,

I just noticed that M.str(unicode=True) (when M is a matrix) prints the
matrix very nicely (especially when it is a block matrix), with pretty
parentheses on both sides.

  sage: print matrix.block(3,3,[matrix.ones(2)]*9).str(unicode=True)

Would it be possible to make it the default behaviour? Through Volker's
machinery for auto-detection of output format, for instance?

THaaanks,

Nathann

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"sage-devel" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to sage-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

Re: [sage-devel] Matrix unicode output

[Nathann Cohen]

Y,

> sage: from sage.repl.rich_output import get_display_manager
> sage: dm = get_display_manager()
> sage: dm.text = 'unicode_art'
> sage: matrix([[2,1],[2,2]])
> ⎛2 1⎞
> ⎝2 2⎠

Oh, True. But I have to use .str() all the time though, because my
matrices are too large to appear in the __repr__.

> to actually make it the default if the locales are specified as unicode, e.g. 
> "en_US.utf8". Would be nice.

That would be cool for the __repr__ indeed. It would be weird to have
.str() depend on that though :-/

Nathann

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"sage-devel" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to sage-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

Re: [sage-devel] Matrix unicode output

[Nathann Cohen]

Detecting the locale is apparently rather straightforward:

sage: import locale
sage: locale.getdefaultlocale()
('en_US', 'UTF-8')

Not sure that I know where the code must be written, though ^^;

Nathann

On 24 January 2016 at 18:25, Nathann Cohen <nathann.co...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Y,
>
>> sage: from sage.repl.rich_output import get_display_manager
>> sage: dm = get_display_manager()
>> sage: dm.text = 'unicode_art'
>> sage: matrix([[2,1],[2,2]])
>> ⎛2 1⎞
>> ⎝2 2⎠
>
> Oh, True. But I have to use .str() all the time though, because my
> matrices are too large to appear in the __repr__.
>
>> to actually make it the default if the locales are specified as unicode, 
>> e.g. "en_US.utf8". Would be nice.
>
> That would be cool for the __repr__ indeed. It would be weird to have
> .str() depend on that though :-/
>
> Nathann

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"sage-devel" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to sage-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

Re: [sage-devel] Re: Matrix unicode output

[Nathann Cohen]

> sage: %display unicode_art
> sage: matrix.block(3,3,[matrix.ones(2)]*9)

Would it be safe to enable unicode_art on startup if it is supported?
Or does it mean that many objects will be displayed with drawings
instead of their usual representation as a consequence?

I am trying to figure out *how* to display matrices in unicode by
default when it is supported.

Nathann

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"sage-devel" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to sage-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

Re: [sage-devel] Re: Matrix unicode output

[Nathann Cohen]

> Like for matrices, to come back to the topic?

Indeed, repr(a_matrix) doesn't follow Python's syntax. And list of
matrices is even worse:

sage: [matrix.ones(4) for i in range(4)]
[
[1 1 1 1]  [1 1 1 1]  [1 1 1 1]  [1 1 1 1]
[1 1 1 1]  [1 1 1 1]  [1 1 1 1]  [1 1 1 1]
[1 1 1 1]  [1 1 1 1]  [1 1 1 1]  [1 1 1 1]
[1 1 1 1], [1 1 1 1], [1 1 1 1], [1 1 1 1]
]

> Also, is the Sage output primarily for humans or primarily machine-parsable?

Do you think we should switch to utf8 globally? That would require a
crazy patch (to update all doctests). We can't really have the
'doctest mode' output ASCII while ipython outputs utf8, as otherwise
writing new doctests may become *very* complicated.

Hm... To me switching to utf8 sounds tempting, though I expect
that there will be many headaches ahead that I don't see yet.

Also, while it is true that nobody may have complained about the utf8
banner, perhaps they just don't care enough to tell us.

Err.

Something important: a couple of months ago I was in touch with a Sage
user who happens to be a blind mathematician. He stopped using the
other softwares because his "text reading software" couldn't be used
on that output. He was litterally thanking the Lord on the phone when
I got him to compute the derivative of a polynomial in Sage, and that
he could actually *hear* the output, read by his software.

If we switched to utf8, we would close Sage to him.

:-/

Nathann

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"sage-devel" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to sage-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

Re: [sage-devel] Re: Matrix unicode output

[Nathann Cohen]

Okay. So let's say that we enable ascii_art by default: is there a
unintended consequence? Or should we just do that?

Nathann

On 24 January 2016 at 19:57, Volker Braun <vbraun.n...@gmail.com> wrote:
> There is no bulletproof way for the program to determine whether the
> terminal can display unicode. But every half-way recent terminal can, and we
> have been using unicode in the startup banner for years without problems.
> I'd just assume that it works by default nowadays.
>
> %display unicode_art also renders symbolics as art
>
> sage: %display unicode_art
> sage: integral(gamma(x), x)
> ⌠
> ⎮ Γ(x) dx
> ⌡
>
> which should be the default in any system that tries to attain new users.
> Whereas this is how you dissuade potential new users:
>
> sage: integral(gamma(x), x)
> integrate(gamma(x), x)
>
>
>
>
> On Sunday, January 24, 2016 at 12:54:13 PM UTC-5, Nathann Cohen wrote:
>>
>> > sage: %display unicode_art
>> > sage: matrix.block(3,3,[matrix.ones(2)]*9)
>>
>> Would it be safe to enable unicode_art on startup if it is supported?
>> Or does it mean that many objects will be displayed with drawings
>> instead of their usual representation as a consequence?
>>
>> I am trying to figure out *how* to display matrices in unicode by
>> default when it is supported.
>>
>> Nathann
>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> "sage-devel" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an
> email to sage-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
> To post to this group, send email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com.
> Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel.
> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"sage-devel" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to sage-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

Re: [sage-devel] Re: Rationale behind HasseDiagram class

[Nathann Cohen]

Thank you Travis. By talking with you I do not have any more doubt on
how/why this class was built as it is.

Nathann

On 23 January 2016 at 19:39, Travis Scrimshaw  wrote:
>
>>
>> class Poset:
>>
>> def A():
>> for i in ZZ:
>>  self._B()
>>
>> def _B():
>> # works on the digraph self._hasse_diagram, taking advantage
>> of its labelling
>>
>> I do not see where the problem is. It requires a helper function _B a
>> in the current design (where _B would be a HasseDiagram method), and
>> for the other functions that do not need to "call a function that
>> takes advantage of the labelling" (whatever that means) we would need
>> only one function (which is 99% of the time).
>>
>Yes, that works, but it combines the concerns of HasseDiagram (the
> assumption of a special labeling, full access to DiGraph methods, but still
> knows it is suppose to represent a poset) with Poset (the frontend for the
> user with a custom labeling). It is not a good design because you're doing
> everything on the digraph, i.e., it breaks the code's locality.
>
>>
>> I still do not see what makes HasseDiagram mandatory. To clear any
>> misunderstanding, look at the following ticket:
>>
>> http://trac.sagemath.org/ticket/19659
>>
>> It implements a Poset function that "takes advantage of the diagram's
>> labelling" and we don't need any HasseDiagram method, so I do not know
>> what you are talking about.
>>
> TL;DR. From the code, it looks like the method should be in HasseDiagram.
> Good OOP is separation of concerns and locality of code. The HasseDiagram
> class is not mandatory, just like having classes and good design and code is
> not mandatory.
>
> Best,
> Travis
>
>
>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> "sage-devel" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an
> email to sage-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
> To post to this group, send email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com.
> Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel.
> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"sage-devel" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to sage-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

[sage-devel] The sage.rings.finite_rings.constructor module

[Nathann Cohen]

Hello everybody,

The title of the following module is 'Finite Fields'. Its contains
code related to finite fields.

sage/rings/finite_rings/constructor.py

Is it just me, or is there a noticeable discrepancy between the
filename and the content/title?

Thanks,

Nathann

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"sage-devel" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to sage-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

Re: [sage-devel] The sage.rings.finite_rings.constructor module

[Nathann Cohen]

> Of course not, but we need to deprecate the old modules.

Yes yes of course.

Nathann

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"sage-devel" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to sage-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

Re: [sage-devel] The sage.rings.finite_rings.constructor module

[Nathann Cohen]

> I can do better:
>
> src/sage/rings/real_lazy.pyx
>
> contains code for real and *complex* lazy numbers.

Nice. I hope nobody will beat that.

Do you see have any objection to setting things right?

Nathann

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"sage-devel" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to sage-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

[sage-devel] Re: The sage.rings.finite_rings.constructor module

[Nathann Cohen]

The 'constructor' file is being renamed to 'finite_field_constructor'
in the following ticket:

http://trac.sagemath.org/ticket/19941

Nathann

On 22 January 2016 at 12:13, Nathann Cohen <nathann.co...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hello everybody,
>
> The title of the following module is 'Finite Fields'. Its contains
> code related to finite fields.
>
> sage/rings/finite_rings/constructor.py
>
> Is it just me, or is there a noticeable discrepancy between the
> filename and the content/title?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Nathann

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"sage-devel" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to sage-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

Re: [sage-devel] Re: Rationale behind HasseDiagram class

[Nathann Cohen]

>Suppose you have function A that calls function B a lot over a loop, and
> both of them can take advantage of the canonical labeling of the DiGraph. If
> you do not have a HasseDiagram class, then A would have to convert the
> canonical labeling, then convert back every time it called B, which would
> have to unconvert, do it's operation.

class Poset:

def A():
for i in ZZ:
 self._B()

def _B():
# works on the digraph self._hasse_diagram, taking advantage
of its labelling

I do not see where the problem is. It requires a helper function _B a
in the current design (where _B would be a HasseDiagram method), and
for the other functions that do not need to "call a function that
takes advantage of the labelling" (whatever that means) we would need
only one function (which is 99% of the time).

I still do not see what makes HasseDiagram mandatory. To clear any
misunderstanding, look at the following ticket:

http://trac.sagemath.org/ticket/19659

It implements a Poset function that "takes advantage of the diagram's
labelling" and we don't need any HasseDiagram method, so I do not know
what you are talking about.

Nathann

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"sage-devel" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to sage-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

[sage-devel] Re: GF(16,'x') when we do not care about the 'x'

[Nathann Cohen]

A ticket has been created (needs_review)

http://trac.sagemath.org/ticket/19929

Nathann

On 20 January 2016 at 21:40, Nathann Cohen <nathann.co...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hello everybody,
>
> I write a lot of code that requires me to build finite fields, and the
> finite fields F_q, when q is not a prime number, cannot be
> instanciated without specifying a variable name:
>
> sage: GF(16)
> ValueError: parameter 'conway' is required if no name given
>
> Thus, I always use GF(16,'x') to avoid this exception.
>
> Is there any reason to not make GF(16) behave as GF(16,'x') does,
> unless specified otherwise? I do not see the point of requesting the
> user to provide a character if (s)he does not care.
>
> Nathann

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"sage-devel" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to sage-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

Re: [sage-devel] Re: Rationale behind HasseDiagram class

[Nathann Cohen]

> The former is when the Poset is acting as an adapter class, and the latter
> is something where there either is no analog currently on the backend (there
> might be no gain because there is no analog (di)graph function or
> translation cost). It depends on the situation and is just trying to be
> effective code.

What I (and probably Jori too) try to understand is what should be
implemented in HasseDiagram and what should be implemented in the
Poset class directly.

Right now the development is designed in what I think is a really
senseless way: every features requires two new functions:
- One on HasseDiagram which does the job
- One on Poset which calls it

It looks like useless work (especially since users are discouraged to
use HasseDiagram). I got used to implement only one function when I
need only one function.

So far, the only reason I understood from conversations with Jori is
that the Poset constructor (which relies on UniqueRepresentation) is
too slow to be called too often. So Jori works on HasseDiagram
directly to avoid this cost.

While it makes sense on one's computer (I would probably do the same)
it just doesn't do to duplicate everything in Sage's own source code
just because the constructor is slow.

Nathann

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"sage-devel" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to sage-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

Re: [sage-devel] Re: Rationale behind HasseDiagram class

[Nathann Cohen]

Hello,

I understand the wisdom of not having Poset inherit from DiGraph, as
you don't want to be bothered with the DiGraph methods and their
different terminology.

I also understand that you need to keep a digraph around, possibly
integer-labelled.

So, as Jori asked, what would be wrong in *not* having a HasseDiagram
class at all? A Poset object could carry a _hasse_diagram digraph, and
all methods would be poset methods.

Right now, there are two classes where a Poset method can be
implemented: Poset, and HasseDiagram. And right now, what we often do
is implement two functions instead of one.

Getting rid of HasseDiagram looks better unless you know how it is
actually useful?

Nathann

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"sage-devel" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to sage-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

Re: [sage-devel] Plots in plot.py documentation

[Nathann Cohen]

Hello,

> Does it makes sense to you if I modify the plot.py docstrings in order to
> include PLOT:: blocks? Wouldn't it be more clear for newbies? (well it wold
> have helped me anyway)

To me it makes sense. Illustrating with pictures the output of
commands meant to produce pictures cannot exactly be called 'daring'.

Thanks,

Nathann

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"sage-devel" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to sage-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

Re: [sage-devel] Broken --docbuild --warn-links

[Nathann Cohen]

> Is it just me, or do you also get an error from
>
> ./sage --docbuild --warn-links all html

The day this works, champagne is on me.

At some point I "cleaned" some foder I care for: graphs/,
numerical/mip and combinat/designs/.

Maybe a couple of broken links have been added since.

Nathann

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"sage-devel" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to sage-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

Re: [sage-devel] Re: Rationale behind HasseDiagram class

[Nathann Cohen]

>Do you want DiGraph to have methods like rank or is_chain?

Of course not. The idea was to have Poset carry a DiGraph
_hasse_diagram instead of a HasseDiagram object, and to [move/merge]
the methods from HasseDiagram with their Poset counterparts.

> Also, by
> implementing them directly into the Poset's class, you must deal with the
> elements labels at each computation, not just when you're moving to/from the
> HasseDiagram backend.

It is the same right now: you mut translate the elements in the Poset
function which calls the HasseDiagram function. Except when the
function does not care, like 'rank'.

> this would require a
> lot more interaction converting between the two different representations.
> At least with the HasseDiagram, which is a DiGraph, it reduces the amount of
> overhead with this.

I do not see how: this would happen as often, but it would happen in
the same location. Right now we write Poset functions whose only
purpose is to relabel elements before calling HasseDiagram methods.
This could be done at the same place.

> Moreover, the methods in Poset should just be a wrapper
> around such functions in HasseDiagram (unless there is no apparent penalty
> for directly implementing them in Poset).

Why do you say that it is how the *should* be?

Nathann

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"sage-devel" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to sage-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

[sage-devel] GF(16,'x') when we do not care about the 'x'

[Nathann Cohen]

Hello everybody,

I write a lot of code that requires me to build finite fields, and the
finite fields F_q, when q is not a prime number, cannot be
instanciated without specifying a variable name:

sage: GF(16)
ValueError: parameter 'conway' is required if no name given

Thus, I always use GF(16,'x') to avoid this exception.

Is there any reason to not make GF(16) behave as GF(16,'x') does,
unless specified otherwise? I do not see the point of requesting the
user to provide a character if (s)he does not care.

Nathann

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"sage-devel" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to sage-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

Re: [sage-devel] GF(16,'x') when we do not care about the 'x'

[Nathann Cohen]

> how about making GF(16) default to GF(16,'conway')
> no symbols injected, no conflicts...

If conflicts can come from the choice of a variable name, I'd say that
the problem is not the variable's name but the code that relies on it.

As far as I am concerned the name can be absolutely anything you agree on.

Nathann

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"sage-devel" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to sage-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

Re: [sage-devel] sagemath developer manual

[Nathann Cohen]

> Harald, I actually don't know where doc.sagemath is coming
> from

It is our "new doc index" since the last hosting changes. What used to
be the index is not used anymore as far as I know.

http://doc.sagemath.org/html/en/website/

Nathann

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"sage-devel" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to sage-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.