Re: [scots-l] What makes a style "Scottish?"
Sigh.. This whole "what makes a style 'Scottish'?" question has come up so many times on this list in the past, that it makes me sad and tired just to think about it :-) To put it bluntly, you have to be either not be listening, or totally unfamiliar with the style to not hear it. I don't know of anyone who can listen to a set by Tommy Peoples and get him confused with Alasdair Fraser. Even my Chinese mother, who knows nothing about Scottish music can hear the differences. The key is in repetitive listening and mimicking. Hundreds, thousands of times, over and over. Just like learning a new language. Even "sub-dialects" are pretty easy to pick out after just a little while. John Campbell sounds nothing like Alasdair Fraser, just like Oscar Peterson sounds nothing like Liberace. You can even tell when listening to my favourite instrument in the world, the accordion . Sharon Shannon sure doesn't sound like Phil Cunningham. If you don't know who any of those folks are, sounds like what we really need to do is post a discography online and not waste time trying to prove the obvious :-) All of these written/verbal definitions are really just like walking outside, pointing a straw at the ocean and saying "if you get out there and swim long enough, you will end up reaching Japan". That of course tells me nothing about what kind of journey that might be, which is what is really important. You have to get into the water. It's all entirely about the journey, all about the process, the results are just a byproduct. I am certain that if you were to follow anything I just said, that very quickly the questions would answer themselves. Toby On Thu, 12 Jul 2001, Wendy Galovich wrote: > On Wednesday 11 July 2001 15:40, you wrote: > > Wendy Galovich wrote: > > > Please don't be offended but I have concluded that you haven't read or > > do not understand the two quotes which I included in my last e-mail. > > Um.. Actually I did read and understand them, and my own conclusion is that > the main problem here is one of semantics and context.. more on that below. > > > > The last line in the Turtis quote bears repeating here, " > > I am concerned that we may be boring others on the list with this > > discussion. If you wish to communicat further perhaps we snould do it > > off list. > > Not yet. I have a question for you that I would like to ask in the forum of > the list, because I think it would benefit many of us, if you would be so > kind as to answer it; it has to do with the semantics issue, and revolves > around the definitions of the following terms: > > - tempered scale > > - alternate scale > > I am not disputing exact scientific/musical definition of the tempered scale > (which is not new information to me or to most of the rest of the list), nor > am I challenging your comments about "alternate scales" per se. But the > practical reality here is that English language is such that we often we find > ourselves having to use it in an imprecise way, not out of ignorance but > simply because the language lacks a specific word or short phrase to > precisely describe the particular concept we're trying to express. Posted to Scots-L - The Traditional Scottish Music & Culture List - To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [scots-l] What makes a style "Scottish?"
On Wednesday 11 July 2001 15:40, you wrote: > Wendy Galovich wrote: > Please don't be offended but I have concluded that you haven't read or > do not understand the two quotes which I included in my last e-mail. Um.. Actually I did read and understand them, and my own conclusion is that the main problem here is one of semantics and context.. more on that below. > The last line in the Turtis quote bears repeating here, " > I am concerned that we may be boring others on the list with this > discussion. If you wish to communicat further perhaps we snould do it > off list. Not yet. I have a question for you that I would like to ask in the forum of the list, because I think it would benefit many of us, if you would be so kind as to answer it; it has to do with the semantics issue, and revolves around the definitions of the following terms: - tempered scale - alternate scale I am not disputing exact scientific/musical definition of the tempered scale (which is not new information to me or to most of the rest of the list), nor am I challenging your comments about "alternate scales" per se. But the practical reality here is that English language is such that we often we find ourselves having to use it in an imprecise way, not out of ignorance but simply because the language lacks a specific word or short phrase to precisely describe the particular concept we're trying to express. We're in the midst of just such a situation, where the above terms end up getting used, with the intent of a slightly different definition, as follows: 1) tempered scale: a scale structure in which the individual pitch intervals are *approximately* 1.059, but with fine adjustments to correct each note so that it is in tune, in relation to its neighboring notes. (This is the concept I had in mind when I said that the CT and MA fiddlers tend to stick to the "tempered scale". 2) alternate scale: a scale in which the pitch of one or more of its notes deviates from the tempered scale as described in 1). Both of the above are *rough* "working definitions", if you will, employed for the sake of being able to discuss the concepts described without having to use the entire description each time; I'm well aware of what you've already said about each. In truth I've seen quite a few occasions on a number of lists where pitch intervals have been discussed using that framework, by participants who were well aware of the scientific and musical theory behind them, and understood that they were using the terms in a very loosely-defined way, but did so because they *needed* an agreed-upon parlance for discussing the *concepts* in 1) and 2). So what we really need, if we shouldn't be using those particular terms to describe those concepts, is a better set of terms. I am personally not aware of any terms that fit this particular need, but it's pretty clear to me that we have to do that before any productive discussion of the concepts can occur. Can you help with that? Thanks, Wendy Posted to Scots-L - The Traditional Scottish Music & Culture List - To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
[scots-l] V.O.M.
Anyone on the list going to the Valley of the Moon fiddle school this August? I've wanted to attend for years but I have so many scheduling conflicts it's nearly impossible. ( Plus . I'm w-a-y over here on the East Coast ( Georgia )). If anyone will be attending, I sure would love to keep in contact and get a "1st hand" view of the the school since I won't be there. I know where the website is and visit the site often. Email me off list. Thanks Keith Dunn GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. Posted to Scots-L - The Traditional Scottish Music & Culture List - To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
[scots-l] The Silvery Voe
I've searched the web over and can't find the abc's or a gif or jpg of this tune, "The Silvery Voe". It's a Shetland tune on Tom Andersons/Aly Bain's CD "The Sliver Bow". Does anyone have this in one of these formats? Orcould you point me in the right direction? AND What's a "Voe"? or even a "Silvery" one? Anyone? Thanks; Keith in Cobb GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. Posted to Scots-L - The Traditional Scottish Music & Culture List - To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
[scots-l] Amazing Grace
Amazing Grace 's entry in The Fiddler's Companion on the Ceolas site states that in Beyond the Hebrides, edited by Donald Fergusson, there is the following: "Since the melody is that of a bag-pipe tune and is a gapped-scale melody with a distinctly modal, plain-song character, it is very probably [sic] that Newton's composition was to an old Scottish melody. If not, early settlers may have adapted the lyrics to an old Scottish melody they brought with them." The Fiddler's Companion entry continues: "The tune is attributed to J. Carrell and D. Clayton in the American shape-note publication Virginia Harmony, c. 1831. It has also been suggested the original title for the tune was 'New Britain'".
Re: [scots-l] Amazing Grace
Hi Carol, I was attending the monthly meeting in Buffalo for a while until I realized it was just too far for me to drive every Sunday. :( So until I move or a meeting starts up here... But I can maybe lend a little info to the debate, the Shakers originally penned "Simple Gifts" around 1850 or so, and Aaron Copeland used the tune in his "Appalachian Spring." In the 1960s the tune was set to the familiar "Lord of the Dance" lyrics. The Shakers are something I have to explain away quite frequently, I tell people about being a Quaker and they ask, "Does that mean you can't have sex?" "Do you live on a commune in the woods?" "Do you make furniture?" Not to mention those who get us confused with the Amish. ;) The Shakers, who number only six or seven now (that sex thing really puts a damper on furthering a religion!), were originally an off-shoot of the Quakers but people should remember that there is a big difference in them and Quakers. But interestingly enough, as influential as Quakers were and continue to be in America, most kids only learn about the Shakers, as a footnote, in their American history classes. Okay, rant done! - Original Message - From: "W. B. OLSON" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Wednesday, July 11, 2001 11:22 PM Subject: Re: [scots-l] Amazing Grace Carol Thompkins wrote: > > I had > > difficulty explaining to our host family the meaning of the title "Amazing > > Grace". I think I was right in saying it was an American quaker hymn or > was > > that Lord of the Dance which was also played by our hosts in our honour! > > > > Hi Philip, > > As a Quaker for many years, I can guarantee you that Amazing Grace is not a > Quaker hymn. Quakers don't sing at meeting except in rare instances, nor do > we have hymns. In fact, the meeting is mostly silent unless the spirit > moves one of us to speak. > > Just FYI. > > Carol (going now to look at Rachel's music) > > Posted to Scots-L - The Traditional Scottish Music & Culture List - To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html You can find the original 1779 text of Newton's "Amazing Grace" on the Cowper-Newton Museum website. Bruce Olson -- Roots of Folk: Old British Isles popular and folk songs, tunes, broadside ballads at my no-spam website - www.erols.com/olsonw or just http://www.erols.com/olsonw";> Click Motto: Keep it up; muddling through always works. Posted to Scots-L - The Traditional Scottish Music & Culture List - To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html Posted to Scots-L - The Traditional Scottish Music & Culture List - To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [scots-l] Amazing Grace
Quakers don't sing at meeting except in rare instances, nor do > > we have hymns. > > I think Philip meant the Shakers, not the Quakers (slight difference!). Thanks Anselm. I was thinking Shakers too, but I thought Amazing Grace was more mainstream than that. It was written by a former slave boat captain as I recall. Doesn't sound like he was a Shaker either. > > Anyway, it's Lord of the Dance (the well-known Irish traditional song > written by Sydney Carter some time during the 1960s or so) which derives > from a Shaker (not Quaker) hymn called Simple Gifts. You can hear the > tune in Copeland's Appalachian Spring, among other places. Yes I'm aware of Simple Gifts or The Gift to be Simple. I wasn't sure what tune from Lord of the Dance he was referring to. The Shakers were a distant offshoot from the Quakers and retained only the belief of being plain and non-violent. They lived in same-sex dormatories and didn't believe in shall we say 'the sins of the flesh', which is why there are only a few left today. Thanks for the clarification. Carol Posted to Scots-L - The Traditional Scottish Music & Culture List - To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
[scots-l] RE: Amazing Grace
The history of Amazing Grace can be found at the following url: http://www.flash.net/~gaylon/jnewton.htm Mail2Web - Check your email from the web at http://www.mail2web.com/ . Posted to Scots-L - The Traditional Scottish Music & Culture List - To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [scots-l] Amazing Grace
Carol Thompkins <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > As a Quaker for many years, I can guarantee you that Amazing Grace is not a > Quaker hymn. Quakers don't sing at meeting except in rare instances, nor do > we have hymns. I think Philip meant the Shakers, not the Quakers (slight difference!). Anyway, it's Lord of the Dance (the well-known Irish traditional song written by Sydney Carter some time during the 1960s or so) which derives from a Shaker (not Quaker) hymn called Simple Gifts. You can hear the tune in Copeland's Appalachian Spring, among other places. Anselm -- Anselm Lingnau .. [EMAIL PROTECTED] Think where man's glory most begins and ends/And say my glory was I had such friends.-- William Butler Yeats, *The Municipal Gallery Re-Visited* Posted to Scots-L - The Traditional Scottish Music & Culture List - To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
