Re: [silk] India: global mobility
On Apr 19, 2012 3:30 AM, ss cybers...@gmail.com wrote: On Wednesday 18 Apr 2012 9:33:10 pm Srini RamaKrishnan wrote: When the world thinks of Brazil it rarely thinks of those with African or Native American blood lines, which seems to help. Would you be able to qualify this statement? The generalization the world is probably errroneous here. As far as my knowledge goes a large part of the world think of Pele when they think of Brazil. Are you generalizing the world as in west==world, or US==world The world is biggish. My experience differs from his. In my experience most people think of Brazilians as brown people - some beautiful exotic hybrid, but definitively non-white. Brazil is a fascinating model in how race may become an obsolete concept in practice. -- Charles
Re: [silk] India: global mobility
On Thu, Apr 19, 2012 at 8:44 AM, Charles Haynes hay...@edgeplay.org wrote: My experience differs from his. In my experience most people think of Brazilians as brown people - some beautiful exotic hybrid, but definitively non-white. Brazil is a fascinating model in how race may become an obsolete concept in practice. Brazil is definitely more racially integrated than most countries that have a similar mix, like say the US. However one only has to watch Brazilian cinema, or visit the college campuses and favelas to see that race, opportunity and income have a rather unhealthy correlation.
Re: [silk] India: global mobility
On Thu, Apr 19, 2012 at 11:23 AM, Srini RamaKrishnan che...@gmail.com wrote: On Thu, Apr 19, 2012 at 8:44 AM, Charles Haynes hay...@edgeplay.org wrote: My experience differs from his. In my experience most people think of Brazilians as brown people - some beautiful exotic hybrid, but definitively non-white. Brazil is a fascinating model in how race may become an obsolete concept in practice. Brazil is definitely more racially integrated than most countries that have a similar mix, like say the US. However one only has to watch Brazilian cinema, or visit the college campuses and favelas to see that race, opportunity and income have a rather unhealthy correlation. I'm in a cafeteria that is inside a top business school in Brazil right now. If I were to take a picture of the people I'm seeing right now, you'd think I'm in Europe. There was an interesting article from the economist a couple of weeks ago about that: http://www.economist.com/node/21543494 I think that article got it right. Brazilians are, in general, less racist in the specific issue of not having hatred against black people or other minorities, but there are much less opportunities for them, so that is not such an advantage in the end. Andre
Re: [silk] India: global mobility
On Wed, Apr 18, 2012 at 6:44 PM, Vinayak Hegde vinay...@gmail.com wrote: I am planning a trip to Turkey in in August so any insight would be helpful (possibly offlist). Looking at your experience it seems that applying in advance is better. There's a bunch of EU / Schengen trade zone nations that don't need a visa - possibly because Turkey views itself as European, or very desperately wants to give off this image. They don't care about quid pro quo nonsense, they just want these rich Europeans to visit Turkey just as if it were a part of Europe. Then there's the non-EU rich countries - USA, South Africa, Australia, Malaysia, Japan, Singapore etc. which are allowed entry by paying $20 per head. But they need to stand in a queue to pay this fee, and then enter the queue for immigration. Then there's a shit list of countries that are good enough if they have a US or Schengen visa, but not good enough to stand in the $20 line. Sri Lanka and India are in this list. There will be no prominent instruction or sign whatsoever telling you what to do if you are Indian - so you need to find someone who can guide you to the police check point - where they look over your passport, and depending on their present level of grumpiness will ask you questions about your plans or income or whatever. Then they scribble a note on torn off note paper that permits you to join the $20 line, and pay your $20 like other civilized passport holders and enter the country. It takes about an hour and some patience as you get treated a bit like vermin.
Re: [silk] India: global mobility
On Wed, Apr 18, 2012 at 7:53 PM, Deepak Shenoy deepakshe...@gmail.com wrote: This I agree with. We should do away with ECNR (which is supposed to protect us from ourselves) and allow people to defect, leave, return etc. at will. We shouldn't though make it possible for those branded talented to be better mobile than others. What applies to one must apply to all. (Except those with parole violations etc. of course) Making the process more efficient does not increase the level of injustice or inequality in society. How is turning up at $rich-nation-embassy and standing in line for half a day or paying someone to hold your spot from 4AM in the morning and getting frisked before getting interrogated by a bored white guy any more equal? No smelly non-English speaking poor bastard of an Indian will even stand a chance of clearing the embassy gate anyway, so where is the equality? India might as well drop the hypocrisy and come clean that the population is unequal and having wealth makes one the new upper caste Brahmin in the capitalistic age. So far I've heard either the oh my, but we are an equal society refrain, or utter distrust in the Indian government's ability to even administer a tiered citizenship. The former is a fig leaf, since as I said our society is unequal, let's get over it. And the latter is merely an implementation problem; there are definitely ways around this. More job opportunities for the private sector to own and administer this problem surely - after all the private sector solves everything better and faster, yes?
Re: [silk] India: global mobility
On Thu, Apr 19, 2012 at 6:59 PM, Srini RamaKrishnan che...@gmail.com wrote: It takes about an hour and some patience as you get treated a bit like vermin. Well one of my friends had a US and Schengen Visa and tried to cross the border by land from Syria. He was denied entry into Turkey. Well that would have been okay - only one problem - he had a single entry visa into Syria so he could not go back. what happened finally ? Read http://www.desibackpacker.com/blog/2011/04/caught-in-no-mans-land-turkish-border/ I once had a similar experience, I was on a train from Slovenia to Hungary (which happened to pass through Zagreb - Croatia). My friend had a single entry Schengen visa and it was about to be stamped at the border rail station which would have left him stranded in no mans land or face deportation. We were eventually thrown out and went back to Hungary through the Slovenian-Hungarian Border. -- Vinayak
Re: [silk] India: global mobility
On Apr 19, 2012 6:04 PM, Vinayak Hegde vinay...@gmail.com wrote: one of my friends had a US and Schengen Visa and tried to cross the border by land from Syria. He was denied entry into Turkey. Well that would have been okay - only one problem - he had a single entry visa into Syria so he could not go back. what happened finally ? Read http://www.desibackpacker.com/blog/2011/04/caught-in-no-mans-land-turkish-border/ What a great story! He should send it to Road Junky. I admire his ingenuity and persistence. -- Charles
Re: [silk] India: global mobility
Making the process more efficient does not increase the level of injustice or inequality in society. The process isn't more efficient for everybody. It's for a few. And that's inequality by itself? How is turning up at $rich-nation-embassy and standing in line for half a day or paying someone to hold your spot from 4AM in the morning and getting frisked before getting interrogated by a bored white guy any more equal? No smelly non-English speaking poor bastard of an Indian will even stand a chance of clearing the embassy gate anyway, so where is the equality? Well, everyone in India is equal. We may not be equal in the eyes of non-Indians (to other foreign nationals), but we don't treat them as equal either. (I just heard that a flat owner rejected a tenant because he was korean. In an expensive flat in Bangalore.) I've seen smelly non-English speaking fellows get visas, and nonsmelly English speaking poor bastards get rejected. If the visa process needs to be more efficient, the Europeans/Americans/Anyone else should weed out who they don't want, or give a preference to someone with an education. Why ask India to differentiate? Already America does it with H1-Bs where a four year college degree is a major plus or something. Other countries do it in their own evil ways. They have that prerogative, even if offensive. \ India might as well drop the hypocrisy and come clean that the population is unequal and having wealth makes one the new upper caste Brahmin in the capitalistic age. But we don't want no upper caste brahmin differentiations. I suppose if we thought that upper caste brahmins were necessary, we would have class differentiated in 1950. We didn't, and in fact went quite a bit the other way. Not saying that was good, but we rooted for the underdog then, why would we that change now? The former is a fig leaf, since as I said our society is unequal, let's get over it. This doesn't quite work, does it? I don't like reservation (because it's class warfare in another way) but the best people come out of the strangest backgrounds. The best programmers aren't from IITs, the best businessmen aren't from IIMs, and if there was class separation there, we'd not have some of the best in town (including Reliance!). Just because there is temporary inequality doesn't mean you stamp it in law. And the latter is merely an implementation problem; there are definitely ways around this. More job opportunities for the private sector to own and administer this problem surely - after all the private sector solves everything better and faster, yes? For the most part :) I assume now that you're just playing devil's advocate, but why the private sector should come into this is a little beyond me. They can be more efficient if they want to, but if the need really is that people want the better visa, they'll get it. Bajaj manufactured more scooters than his licence allowed him to, flouting the law and openly challenging the government to arrest him for providing to the people what they needed when they were willing to pay for it. Either ways, the problem is of countries not giving visas for the educated, then the better thing is to appeal to those countries, no? Since they are so much more developed, it must be easier to create a campaign to tell those consulates that if Indians have these qualifications or income, we should get a visa faster? These countries are so much more reasonable that they will listen and in a few months, change their visa laws appropriately.
Re: [silk] India: global mobility
We can try petitiononline.com for this, no? -- Either ways, the problem is of countries not giving visas for the educated, then the better thing is to appeal to those countries, no? Since they are so much more developed, it must be easier to create a campaign to tell those consulates that if Indians have these qualifications or income, we should get a visa faster? These countries are so much more reasonable that they will listen and in a few months, change their visa laws appropriately. Sent on my BlackBerry® from Vodafone
Re: [silk] India: global mobility
On Thursday 19 Apr 2012 7:05:37 am Ramakrishnan Sundaram wrote: On a related note, it's very jarring when Indians use American legal terms as if they're applicable globally. I've heard people talking about the fifth amendment - as if a presidential reference to state legislatures on matters affecting the states is somehow relevant to an individual's discretion. It's called Americanitis - a highly infectious condition that is caused by living in America and provokes the development of an American accent by the act of merely dropping a cousin off at the airport at the end of his summer holiday which actually comes in the middle of the monsoon season. shiv
Re: [silk] India: global mobility
On Thursday 19 Apr 2012 4:53:35 pm Srini RamaKrishnan wrote: Brazil is definitely more racially integrated than most countries that have a similar mix, like say the US. However one only has to watch Brazilian cinema, or visit the college campuses and favelas to see that race, opportunity and income have a rather unhealthy correlation. Does that mean that all those people with different skin colours are different races? If you recall, this was scientifically propounded over 100 years ago: I had earlier linked only one of these two scans from a century old book. The second text clearly shows that light skinned Aryans were superior but then developed polytheistic corruptions because of mixing with black heathendom of the Deccan. Brazil is largely Catholic I think. That means that they have gone some way towards changing the polytheistic corruptions caused by being dark skinned decsndants of Ham? http://i1116.photobucket.com/albums/k566/bennedose/LRM-intro-ii-part.jpg http://i1116.photobucket.com/albums/k566/bennedose/LRM-263part.jpg shiv
Re: [silk] India: global mobility
On Thursday 19 Apr 2012 10:59:44 pm thew...@gmail.com wrote: We can try petitiononline.com for this, no? -- Either ways, the problem is of countries not giving visas for the educated, then the better thing is to appeal to those countries, no? Since they are so much more developed, it must be easier to create a campaign to tell those consulates that if Indians have these qualifications or income, we should get a visa faster? These countries are so much more reasonable that they will listen and in a few months, change their visa laws appropriately. If I was in a criminal or terrorist group, I would welcome the suckers who fall for this and ensure that all my functionaries are well educated. Like Omar Shaikh Saeed. shiv
Re: [silk] India: global mobility
On Wed, Apr 18, 2012 at 2:46 PM, Srini RamaKrishnan che...@gmail.com wrote: [0] Interestingly Brazil has some of the same baggage of a vast poor underbelly as India; but it fares vastly better on the visa waiver thing. There's greater segregation of the population there of course, and some racism, but still an interesting data point. A Brazilian nearly gets a long way by talking about football. And no, I'm not kidding. That really does happen. There are other things happening here, too, of course. 1. We have higher average income and higher average education level (notice I said average education. You have a lot more top people than we do). 2. Also, one thing that I think is very important: Brazilians who show up at an airport in the US or Europe are usually white and don't look that different from, say, an Italian, Spanish or sometimes a German. Many of the Brazilians who travel abroad have European last names. Those things defuse many of the racist triggers from immigration personnel. 3. There are is a growing middle class holding overvalued currency who travel the world spending a lot of money on trivial things. There is a huge pressure American authorities from tourism businesses now to improve the visa process. Just last month the US consulate in Brazil announced they are opening 3 more visa offices and that's after they had already reduced the wait time from 3 months about 2 years ago to about 2 weeks now. In the next 5 years it is likely no visas will be required from Brazilians. Andre Andre
Re: [silk] India: global mobility
Let us put it this way. Highly educated is often as high an illegal immigration risk as a mallu plumber or surd taxi driver Many other countries allow visa free entry or transit for people with indian passports and valid aussie, us, uk, schengen etc first world visas. Singapore for example. And there are actually countries where you can get visas on arrival - thailand etc -- srs (blackberry) -Original Message- From: Srini RamaKrishnan che...@gmail.com Sender: silklist-bounces+suresh=hserus@lists.hserus.net Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2012 16:46:47 To: silklist@lists.hserus.net Reply-To: silklist@lists.hserus.net Subject: [silk] India: global mobility Traveling anywhere today on an Indian passport is guaranteed to be exciting - navigating visa appointments, embassy interviews, credit worthiness tests and other required hurdles will keep anyone from boredom. The reluctance of countries rich and poor, large and small to open their doors to Indians is quite understandable. The numbers are simply against India; with 1.2 billion people when an Indian is let into one's country it's hard to be sure who exactly is being let in. Is it someone with a college education and a stable income living in the cities, or is it one of the vast majority of the wretchedly poor. The population of Uttar Pradesh, sadly one of the least literate and poorer Indian states is larger than Brazil; making it the fifth most populous country in the world if it were an independent nation. Or for that matter Bihar would be in the poorest 10% of countries if it were an independent nation and there's more such examples to add to what will surely be an unflattering list. [0] Nevertheless take Turkey, it lets in anyone on an Indian passport without a pre-issued visa as long as the passport carries a valid Schengen or US visa. As an aside, while this sounds great, it is not so simple in practice. I did get my visa on arrival at the airport but only after standing in 4 different lines and being interrogated by a bored teenage police officer fingering his gun all the time. The list of countries that Turkey will grant visas on arrival is rather large - it produces quick money at $20 per head and no doubt helps the economy immensely. Economics is at one level about the optimal allocation of capital, resources and people for the maximization of productivity. Global capital markets and free trade agreements have made the free movement of the first two possible at the snap of a finger, but people remain the least fluid component in global economics. Moving an entire factory floor to China is still reasonably efficient since people themselves aren't being moved, but when it comes to qualified professionals global corporations and talented individuals need to spend lots of time on complicated visa regulations and procedures before a large corporate head quarters with a global workforce can be assembled. For a country which counts people as its largest bankable asset India should see a lot of economic merit in enabling the free global movement of its talented people. Assuming there is a special class of Indian passport [1], one where the recipient is vetted to be of first or second world standards in education, income, and other desirables, and comes with pre-negotiated visa waivers with most countries - it would enable a more mobile class of Indian who can travel and be employed in other countries, but be off the host country's books in terms of visas and permanent residencies. Given the incentive to convert nationality or residency is greatly reduced for this new mobile Indian it helps India retain its talent too. In a country facing a lot of criticism for being unable to allow global trade in as rapidly as the world would like (c.f. Walmart's entry into India) and generally facing economic stagnation (http://www.project-syndicate.org/commentary/india-s-year-of-living-stagnantly) (http://blogs.reuters.com/india/2012/03/15/india-democratic-tempest-shashi-tharoor/) it wouldn't be such a bad idea to advance in the global economic race with what is merely a regulatory and diplomatic undertaking. Thoughts? [0] Interestingly Brazil has some of the same baggage of a vast poor underbelly as India; but it fares vastly better on the visa waiver thing. There's greater segregation of the population there of course, and some racism, but still an interesting data point. [1] The ECNR/ECR stamp regime did something similar but to no productive end
Re: [silk] India: global mobility
-Original Message- From: Srini RamaKrishnan che...@gmail.com (mailto:che...@gmail.com) Sender: silklist-bounces+suresh=hserus@lists.hserus.net (mailto:hserus@lists.hserus.net) Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2012 16:46:47 To: silklist@lists.hserus.net (mailto:silklist@lists.hserus.net) Reply-To: silklist@lists.hserus.net (mailto:silklist@lists.hserus.net) Subject: [silk] India: global mobility Assuming there is a special class of Indian passport [1], one where the recipient is vetted to be of first or second world standards in education, income, and other desirables, and comes with pre-negotiated visa waivers with most countries - it would enable a more mobile class of Indian who can travel and be employed in other countries, but be off the host country's books in terms of visas and permanent residencies. Given the incentive to convert nationality or residency is greatly reduced for this new mobile Indian it helps India retain its talent too. How much of this boils down to the reputation other countries have of our passport verification and issuing process? I remember talking about this to a Republic of Ireland government investment/tourism of some kind a few years ago, who said that they were well aware of how archaic the passport issuing mechanism in India was. As long as you can buy a new passport for Rs 35,000 or so in Delhi, which was the rate when I last checked, the document is a certificate of nothing at all. (Now Ireland also lets in Indian passports with Schengens or UK visas in them.) My experiences with Visa On Arrival have been mixed. Sri Lanka and Malaysia were good. Turkey was absolutely terrible. Even the guys at the airport said that if I ever were to come back I should just get a visa the usual way before leaving. Perhaps there are elements of racism and such like. But to be told, in Turkey, that Indian passport were inspected more closely than Iraqi ones was… a bit much IMHO.
Re: [silk] India: global mobility
Globally-mobile Indians also include labourers who go to middle east/SE Asia. Creating a two-tier passport system would concretise class/caste system. If you wear suits, have credit cards, and speak english and work for mncs, one queue; if you look like a construction worker, go to the back of the line. It is bad and unworkable at many levels. When I lived in singapore and malaysia imposed stringent visa rules for indians living in singapore, some indians asked for exemption for indians who were singapore PRs, or who had amex gold cards (I'm not kidding). I don't see such a system fly; US wanted to do it, a so-called trusted traveller system, but they realised it was impossible to administer in a country that places a premium on equality of all citizens. For indian passports to be respected more, india will have to improve its standing first. Salil Sent from my BlackBerry® wireless device -Original Message- From: Sidin Vadukut sidin.vadu...@gmail.com Sender: silklist-bounces+salil61=googlemail@lists.hserus.net Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2012 16:19:08 To: silklist@lists.hserus.net Reply-To: silklist@lists.hserus.net Subject: Re: [silk] India: global mobility -Original Message- From: Srini RamaKrishnan che...@gmail.com (mailto:che...@gmail.com) Sender: silklist-bounces+suresh=hserus@lists.hserus.net (mailto:hserus@lists.hserus.net) Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2012 16:46:47 To: silklist@lists.hserus.net (mailto:silklist@lists.hserus.net) Reply-To: silklist@lists.hserus.net (mailto:silklist@lists.hserus.net) Subject: [silk] India: global mobility Assuming there is a special class of Indian passport [1], one where the recipient is vetted to be of first or second world standards in education, income, and other desirables, and comes with pre-negotiated visa waivers with most countries - it would enable a more mobile class of Indian who can travel and be employed in other countries, but be off the host country's books in terms of visas and permanent residencies. Given the incentive to convert nationality or residency is greatly reduced for this new mobile Indian it helps India retain its talent too. How much of this boils down to the reputation other countries have of our passport verification and issuing process? I remember talking about this to a Republic of Ireland government investment/tourism of some kind a few years ago, who said that they were well aware of how archaic the passport issuing mechanism in India was. As long as you can buy a new passport for Rs 35,000 or so in Delhi, which was the rate when I last checked, the document is a certificate of nothing at all. (Now Ireland also lets in Indian passports with Schengens or UK visas in them.) My experiences with Visa On Arrival have been mixed. Sri Lanka and Malaysia were good. Turkey was absolutely terrible. Even the guys at the airport said that if I ever were to come back I should just get a visa the usual way before leaving. Perhaps there are elements of racism and such like. But to be told, in Turkey, that Indian passport were inspected more closely than Iraqi ones was… a bit much IMHO.
Re: [silk] India: global mobility
On Wed, Apr 18, 2012 at 7:46 AM, Srini RamaKrishnan che...@gmail.comwrote: [1] The ECNR/ECR stamp regime did something similar but to no productive end The EC(N)R stamp meant something at the point of origin, not at the destination. I suspect a vast majority of the countries did not know what this chaapa on the passport meant. Thaths -- Homer: Hey, what does this job pay? Carl: Nuthin'. Homer: D'oh! Carl: Unless you're crooked. Homer: Woo-hoo! Sudhakar ChandraSlacker Without Borders
Re: [silk] India: global mobility
And ec(n)r prevented school-drop-out artists from travelling, since if you hadn't finished hi school, assumption was that sarkar maibaap would be needed to look after you and decide if you were eligible to travel abroad. Sent from my BlackBerry® wireless device -Original Message- From: Thaths tha...@gmail.com Sender: silklist-bounces+salil61=googlemail@lists.hserus.net Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2012 08:26:52 To: silklist@lists.hserus.net Reply-To: silklist@lists.hserus.net Subject: Re: [silk] India: global mobility On Wed, Apr 18, 2012 at 7:46 AM, Srini RamaKrishnan che...@gmail.comwrote: [1] The ECNR/ECR stamp regime did something similar but to no productive end The EC(N)R stamp meant something at the point of origin, not at the destination. I suspect a vast majority of the countries did not know what this chaapa on the passport meant. Thaths -- Homer: Hey, what does this job pay? Carl: Nuthin'. Homer: D'oh! Carl: Unless you're crooked. Homer: Woo-hoo! Sudhakar ChandraSlacker Without Borders
Re: [silk] India: global mobility
On Wed, Apr 18, 2012 at 8:26 AM, salil tripathi sali...@gmail.com wrote: ** Globally-mobile Indians also include labourers who go to middle east/SE Asia. Creating a two-tier passport system would concretise class/caste system. If you wear suits, have credit cards, and speak english and work for mncs, one queue; if you look like a construction worker, go to the back of the line. ... For indian passports to be respected more, india will have to improve its standing first. I first left India back in '93. Traveling back then I found Indian passport holders to be unsophisticated country cousin-like and the Indian diaspora holding Malaysian, Singaporean passports as being much more sophisticated travelers. Sometime in the early 2000's I started noticing that Indian passport holders had become much more sophisticated (laptops, designer clothing, etc.) and the the SE Asian diaspora Indians started appearing to be the less sophisticated moffusil variety. Thaths -- Homer: Hey, what does this job pay? Carl: Nuthin'. Homer: D'oh! Carl: Unless you're crooked. Homer: Woo-hoo! Sudhakar ChandraSlacker Without Borders
Re: [silk] India: global mobility
On Wed, Apr 18, 2012 at 8:29 AM, salil tripathi sali...@gmail.com wrote: ** And ec(n)r prevented school-drop-out artists from travelling, since if you hadn't finished hi school, assumption was that sarkar maibaap would be needed to look after you and decide if you were eligible to travel abroad. I know. The EC(N)R regime probably goes back to the migration of indentured laborers to the colonies. Thaths -- Homer: Hey, what does this job pay? Carl: Nuthin'. Homer: D'oh! Carl: Unless you're crooked. Homer: Woo-hoo! Sudhakar ChandraSlacker Without Borders
Re: [silk] India: global mobility
Yep, it was well-intentioned, but it annoyingly restricted individual freedoms. Salil Sent from my BlackBerry® wireless device -Original Message- From: Thaths tha...@gmail.com Sender: silklist-bounces+salil61=googlemail@lists.hserus.net Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2012 08:33:21 To: silklist@lists.hserus.net Reply-To: silklist@lists.hserus.net Subject: Re: [silk] India: global mobility On Wed, Apr 18, 2012 at 8:29 AM, salil tripathi sali...@gmail.com wrote: ** And ec(n)r prevented school-drop-out artists from travelling, since if you hadn't finished hi school, assumption was that sarkar maibaap would be needed to look after you and decide if you were eligible to travel abroad. I know. The EC(N)R regime probably goes back to the migration of indentured laborers to the colonies. Thaths -- Homer: Hey, what does this job pay? Carl: Nuthin'. Homer: D'oh! Carl: Unless you're crooked. Homer: Woo-hoo! Sudhakar ChandraSlacker Without Borders
Re: [silk] India: global mobility
On Wed, Apr 18, 2012 at 5:33 PM, Thaths tha...@gmail.com wrote: On Wed, Apr 18, 2012 at 8:29 AM, salil tripathi sali...@gmail.com wrote: And ec(n)r prevented school-drop-out artists from travelling, since if you hadn't finished hi school, assumption was that sarkar maibaap would be needed to look after you and decide if you were eligible to travel abroad. I know. The EC(N)R regime probably goes back to the migration of indentured laborers to the colonies. It was also justified on the grounds of preventing the bride and servant slave trades - to prevent unscrupulous agents from shuffling the uneducated out to the bad lands.
Re: [silk] India: global mobility
On Wednesday, 18 April 2012 at 16:33, Thaths wrote: On Wed, Apr 18, 2012 at 8:29 AM, salil tripathi sali...@gmail.com (mailto:sali...@gmail.com) wrote: And ec(n)r prevented school-drop-out artists from travelling, since if you hadn't finished hi school, assumption was that sarkar maibaap would be needed to look after you and decide if you were eligible to travel abroad. I know. The EC(N)R regime probably goes back to the migration of indentured laborers to the colonies. My dad used to know a fellow in Al Ain (UAE) who ran a successful, how do I put it, public-private partnership in passport renewals and ECNR stamps. We used to call it the Kozhikode Embassy and this fellow the Ambassador of Kozhikode.
Re: [silk] India: global mobility
On 18 April 2012 20:56, salil tripathi sali...@gmail.com wrote: system. If you wear suits, have credit cards, and speak english and work for mncs, one queue; if you look like a construction worker, go to the back of the line. I used to live in the UAE, and had to travel often to Saudi Arabia. The first time I did so, colleagues told me to wear a suit on the plane. I found out why when we landed at Riyadh. Guards separated incoming passengers into fast-moving queues for all whites and others in suits; the rest were corralled into queues of a hundred or more. So, Salil. your fears have long been true. Ram
Re: [silk] India: global mobility
Riyadh is possibly the worst airport in the middle east - so it is possibly a very good thing you wore that suit --Original Message-- From: Ramakrishnan Sundaram Sender: silklist-bounces+suresh=hserus@lists.hserus.net To: silklist@lists.hserus.net ReplyTo: silklist@lists.hserus.net Subject: Re: [silk] India: global mobility Sent: Apr 18, 2012 21:04 On 18 April 2012 20:56, salil tripathi sali...@gmail.com wrote: system. If you wear suits, have credit cards, and speak english and work for mncs, one queue; if you look like a construction worker, go to the back of the line. I used to live in the UAE, and had to travel often to Saudi Arabia. The first time I did so, colleagues told me to wear a suit on the plane. I found out why when we landed at Riyadh. Guards separated incoming passengers into fast-moving queues for all whites and others in suits; the rest were corralled into queues of a hundred or more. So, Salil. your fears have long been true. Ram -- srs (blackberry)
Re: [silk] India: global mobility
On Wed, Apr 18, 2012 at 5:26 PM, salil tripathi sali...@gmail.com wrote: Globally-mobile Indians also include labourers who go to middle east/SE Asia. Creating a two-tier passport system would concretise class/caste system. If you wear suits, have credit cards, and speak english and work for mncs, one queue; if you look like a construction worker, go to the back of the line. I totally know that my proposal is objectionable on many grounds. It creates a caste system of sorts as you say. It also crudely views people as resources - economic pawns with no connection to heritage, culture, history whatever that can and should be moved around for economic benefit. I deliver it somewhat tongue in cheek obviously, given my liberal tendencies :D As a thought experiment in real politik - there's no way a billion people can be equal in any sense of the term. Human equality has come a far way in the last century, but we still aren't at the stage where even 20% of the world can sees itself as being equal. All of the first world together is still not a billion people. I'll point out that economics and free markets also create castes - those eligible for credit cards and those not, those with jobs and those not; those who are rich and those not etc. Equality is a chimera; and economics erodes at democratic values in many ways anyway, so this isn't by itself an anathema to economic growth advocates.
Re: [silk] India: global mobility
On Wed, Apr 18, 2012 at 5:04 PM, Andre Manoel an...@corp.insite.com.br wrote: 2. Also, one thing that I think is very important: Brazilians who show up at an airport in the US or Europe are usually white and don't look that different from, say, an Italian, Spanish or sometimes a German. Many of the Brazilians who travel abroad have European last names. Those things defuse many of the racist triggers from immigration personnel. Yes, I was thinking of this phenomenon when I mentioned Brazil - there's also many with a foot in the EU with a dual Portugese or German passport. When the world thinks of Brazil it rarely thinks of those with African or Native American blood lines, which seems to help.
Re: [silk] India: global mobility
On Wed, Apr 18, 2012 at 5:31 PM, Thaths tha...@gmail.com wrote: Sometime in the early 2000's I started noticing that Indian passport holders had become much more sophisticated (laptops, designer clothing, etc.) and the the SE Asian diaspora Indians started appearing to be the less sophisticated moffusil variety. This is very true - Malaysian Tamils I find for example are more class conscious and submissive than their Indian Tamil counterparts. They seem to be stuck in a class conscious age that India lost in the 90s. When I am served in Tamil restaurants and barber shops and other establishments I find this class inferiority felt by the local Tamils feel come out rather palpably. For that matter they even worship second class gods. Farm deities that aren't part of the premier Hindu divine pantheon are still rather popular in Malaysia - whereas most Indian Tamils have traded up, and even small villages today have temples to higher echelon Hindu gods that are accessible to all.
Re: [silk] India: global mobility
On Wed, Apr 18, 2012 at 8:49 PM, Sidin Vadukut sidin.vadu...@gmail.com wrote: [snip] How much of this boils down to the reputation other countries have of our passport verification and issuing process? I remember talking about this to a Republic of Ireland government investment/tourism of some kind a few years ago, who said that they were well aware of how archaic the passport issuing mechanism in India was. As long as you can buy a new passport for Rs 35,000 or so in Delhi, which was the rate when I last checked, the document is a certificate of nothing at all. (Now Ireland also lets in Indian passports with Schengens or UK visas in them.) Ireland is giving a visa waiver if you have a valid Visa between Jul 2011 and Oct 2012 (timed for the London Olympics). http://www.discoverireland.com/in/ireland-plan-your-visit/facts/Visa-Passport-and-Embassies/ This looks like a temporary arrangement to get some tourism dollars. All signs are that Ireland will back to the old Visa regime as soon as the Olympics are over. My experiences with Visa On Arrival have been mixed. Sri Lanka and Malaysia were good. Turkey was absolutely terrible. Even the guys at the airport said that if I ever were to come back I should just get a visa the usual way before leaving. My experience of VOA in Bhutan (fantastic), Cambodia, Laos and Vietnam (with pre-approval letter) was good. Perhaps there are elements of racism and such like. But to be told, in Turkey, that Indian passport were inspected more closely than Iraqi ones was… a bit much IMHO. Same in China immigration but that is to be understood. Chinese immigration also has a gadget that you can use to report whether you were satisfied with the behavior/process of the visa officer. I have not seen this anywhere else I traveled. -- Vinayak
Re: [silk] India: global mobility
On Wed, Apr 18, 2012 at 8:16 PM, Srini RamaKrishnan che...@gmail.com wrote: Traveling anywhere today on an Indian passport is guaranteed to be exciting - navigating visa appointments, embassy interviews, credit worthiness tests and other required hurdles will keep anyone from boredom. The reluctance of countries rich and poor, large and small to open their doors to Indians is quite understandable. The numbers are simply against India; with 1.2 billion people when an Indian is let into one's country it's hard to be sure who exactly is being let in. Is it someone with a college education and a stable income living in the cities, or is it one of the vast majority of the wretchedly poor. I've heard this is often quid-pro-quo as well. We make life fairly miserable for foreigners that want to work here, what with limited-term-visas, requirements of getting police stamps every so many months, etc. We supposedly have made life tough for visitors as well. I wouldn't go with this special passport business. First, it will create incentives to easily override whatever rules are created for the purpose, if indeed the passport gives easier entry abroad. (And if the rules are made really tight, most valid people will not get in, only those that pay or bribe will). This will eventually result in foreign countries refusing to grant easier visas to such passports as well. Second, it's a class segregation I don't agree with. We are what we are, collectively, and sadly, some of us will suffer for the deeds of the other few, but we are just as Indian, and I see no reason we should give anyone a jew stamp. The population of Uttar Pradesh, sadly one of the least literate and poorer Indian states is larger than Brazil; making it the fifth most populous country in the world if it were an independent nation. Or for that matter Bihar would be in the poorest 10% of countries if it were an independent nation and there's more such examples to add to what will surely be an unflattering list. [0] Yet, biharis and UP-ites seem to do very well everywhere, and Bihar is starting to turn economically better. For a country which counts people as its largest bankable asset India should see a lot of economic merit in enabling the free global movement of its talented people. This I agree with. We should do away with ECNR (which is supposed to protect us from ourselves) and allow people to defect, leave, return etc. at will. We shouldn't though make it possible for those branded talented to be better mobile than others. What applies to one must apply to all. (Except those with parole violations etc. of course)
Re: [silk] India: global mobility
On Wednesday 18 Apr 2012 9:33:10 pm Srini RamaKrishnan wrote: When the world thinks of Brazil it rarely thinks of those with African or Native American blood lines, which seems to help. Would you be able to qualify this statement? The generalization the world is probably errroneous here. As far as my knowledge goes a large part of the world think of Pele when they think of Brazil. Are you generalizing the world as in west==world, or US==world The world is biggish. shiv
Re: [silk] India: global mobility
On 18 April 2012 23:23, Deepak Shenoy deepakshe...@gmail.com wrote: apply to all. (Except those with parole violations etc. of course) Does India even have parole to violate? I thought the poor and unconnected are guilty till proven otherwise, and the rich and connected are innocent as you can't prove otherwise. I haven't heard of anyone being released on parole, or violating parole. On a related note, it's very jarring when Indians use American legal terms as if they're applicable globally. I've heard people talking about the fifth amendment - as if a presidential reference to state legislatures on matters affecting the states is somehow relevant to an individual's discretion. Ram
Re: [silk] India: global mobility
On Apr 19, 2012 7:05 AM, Ramakrishnan Sundaram r.sunda...@gmail.com wrote: On 18 April 2012 23:23, Deepak Shenoy deepakshe...@gmail.com wrote: apply to all. (Except those with parole violations etc. of course) Does India even have parole to violate? Good pt, I don't know if the term is called parole, but I think you can be out earlier than an assigned jail term, sometimes for short periods (which manu sharma had abused). But I used the term in general, like those that are on bail against a criminal charge etc. I thought the poor and unconnected are guilty till proven otherwise, and the rich and connected are innocent as you can't prove otherwise. Having just been through a lengthy court case (civil, as a plaintiff) I can say that you dont need too much money to escape legal retribution for a long long time :) I think they'll convict headley befor we convict kasab. On a related note, it's very jarring when Indians use American legal terms as if they're applicable globally. I have that problem when people usebillions or millions of rupees, rather than lakhs and crores. But I've been told its all about your audience. :)
Re: [silk] India: global mobility
I'd applied for a passport when I was in school, and didn't have an ECNR stamp, since I wasn't a degree holder at the time. I'd traveled on my passport before, so I got a rude shock when I wasn't allowed to go to the Philippines in 2004. Is the ECNR regime still on? And does it apply even for 3 year old kids traveling with ECNR certified parents? Sent on my BlackBerry® from Vodafone -Original Message- From: salil tripathi sali...@gmail.com Sender: silklist-bounces+thewall=gmail@lists.hserus.net Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2012 15:29:47 To: silklist@lists.hserus.net Reply-To: silklist@lists.hserus.net Subject: Re: [silk] India: global mobility And ec(n)r prevented school-drop-out artists from travelling, since if you hadn't finished hi school, assumption was that sarkar maibaap would be needed to look after you and decide if you were eligible to travel abroad. Sent from my BlackBerry® wireless device -Original Message- From: Thaths tha...@gmail.com Sender: silklist-bounces+salil61=googlemail@lists.hserus.net Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2012 08:26:52 To: silklist@lists.hserus.net Reply-To: silklist@lists.hserus.net Subject: Re: [silk] India: global mobility On Wed, Apr 18, 2012 at 7:46 AM, Srini RamaKrishnan che...@gmail.comwrote: [1] The ECNR/ECR stamp regime did something similar but to no productive end The EC(N)R stamp meant something at the point of origin, not at the destination. I suspect a vast majority of the countries did not know what this chaapa on the passport meant. Thaths -- Homer: Hey, what does this job pay? Carl: Nuthin'. Homer: D'oh! Carl: Unless you're crooked. Homer: Woo-hoo! Sudhakar ChandraSlacker Without Borders
Re: [silk] India: global mobility
The ecnr regime is on Kids whose parents are graduates, both have passports etc are eligible for ecnr But if you don't need it it isn't stamped on your passport, only an ecr is stamped -- srs (blackberry) -Original Message- From: thew...@gmail.com Sender: silklist-bounces+suresh=hserus@lists.hserus.net Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2012 04:39:50 To: silklist@lists.hserus.net Reply-To: silklist@lists.hserus.net Subject: Re: [silk] India: global mobility I'd applied for a passport when I was in school, and didn't have an ECNR stamp, since I wasn't a degree holder at the time. I'd traveled on my passport before, so I got a rude shock when I wasn't allowed to go to the Philippines in 2004. Is the ECNR regime still on? And does it apply even for 3 year old kids traveling with ECNR certified parents? Sent on my BlackBerry® from Vodafone -Original Message- From: salil tripathi sali...@gmail.com Sender: silklist-bounces+thewall=gmail@lists.hserus.net Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2012 15:29:47 To: silklist@lists.hserus.net Reply-To: silklist@lists.hserus.net Subject: Re: [silk] India: global mobility And ec(n)r prevented school-drop-out artists from travelling, since if you hadn't finished hi school, assumption was that sarkar maibaap would be needed to look after you and decide if you were eligible to travel abroad. Sent from my BlackBerry® wireless device -Original Message- From: Thaths tha...@gmail.com Sender: silklist-bounces+salil61=googlemail@lists.hserus.net Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2012 08:26:52 To: silklist@lists.hserus.net Reply-To: silklist@lists.hserus.net Subject: Re: [silk] India: global mobility On Wed, Apr 18, 2012 at 7:46 AM, Srini RamaKrishnan che...@gmail.comwrote: [1] The ECNR/ECR stamp regime did something similar but to no productive end The EC(N)R stamp meant something at the point of origin, not at the destination. I suspect a vast majority of the countries did not know what this chaapa on the passport meant. Thaths -- Homer: Hey, what does this job pay? Carl: Nuthin'. Homer: D'oh! Carl: Unless you're crooked. Homer: Woo-hoo! Sudhakar ChandraSlacker Without Borders
Re: [silk] India: global mobility
Need to check my son's passport. In any case, for travel to the US, Singapore, EU, etc, are people permitted to depart India irrespective of ECNR status? Sent on my BlackBerry® from Vodafone -Original Message- From: Suresh Ramasubramanian sur...@hserus.net Sender: silklist-bounces+thewall=gmail@lists.hserus.net Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2012 04:47:46 To: silklist@lists.hserus.net Reply-To: silklist@lists.hserus.net Subject: Re: [silk] India: global mobility The ecnr regime is on Kids whose parents are graduates, both have passports etc are eligible for ecnr But if you don't need it it isn't stamped on your passport, only an ecr is stamped -- srs (blackberry) -Original Message- From: thew...@gmail.com Sender: silklist-bounces+suresh=hserus@lists.hserus.net Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2012 04:39:50 To: silklist@lists.hserus.net Reply-To: silklist@lists.hserus.net Subject: Re: [silk] India: global mobility I'd applied for a passport when I was in school, and didn't have an ECNR stamp, since I wasn't a degree holder at the time. I'd traveled on my passport before, so I got a rude shock when I wasn't allowed to go to the Philippines in 2004. Is the ECNR regime still on? And does it apply even for 3 year old kids traveling with ECNR certified parents? Sent on my BlackBerry® from Vodafone -Original Message- From: salil tripathi sali...@gmail.com Sender: silklist-bounces+thewall=gmail@lists.hserus.net Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2012 15:29:47 To: silklist@lists.hserus.net Reply-To: silklist@lists.hserus.net Subject: Re: [silk] India: global mobility And ec(n)r prevented school-drop-out artists from travelling, since if you hadn't finished hi school, assumption was that sarkar maibaap would be needed to look after you and decide if you were eligible to travel abroad. Sent from my BlackBerry® wireless device -Original Message- From: Thaths tha...@gmail.com Sender: silklist-bounces+salil61=googlemail@lists.hserus.net Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2012 08:26:52 To: silklist@lists.hserus.net Reply-To: silklist@lists.hserus.net Subject: Re: [silk] India: global mobility On Wed, Apr 18, 2012 at 7:46 AM, Srini RamaKrishnan che...@gmail.comwrote: [1] The ECNR/ECR stamp regime did something similar but to no productive end The EC(N)R stamp meant something at the point of origin, not at the destination. I suspect a vast majority of the countries did not know what this chaapa on the passport meant. Thaths -- Homer: Hey, what does this job pay? Carl: Nuthin'. Homer: D'oh! Carl: Unless you're crooked. Homer: Woo-hoo! Sudhakar ChandraSlacker Without Borders
Re: [silk] India: global mobility
Yes - but check away -- srs (blackberry) -Original Message- From: thew...@gmail.com Sender: silklist-bounces+suresh=hserus@lists.hserus.net Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2012 04:58:12 To: silklist@lists.hserus.net Reply-To: silklist@lists.hserus.net Subject: Re: [silk] India: global mobility Need to check my son's passport. In any case, for travel to the US, Singapore, EU, etc, are people permitted to depart India irrespective of ECNR status? Sent on my BlackBerry® from Vodafone -Original Message- From: Suresh Ramasubramanian sur...@hserus.net Sender: silklist-bounces+thewall=gmail@lists.hserus.net Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2012 04:47:46 To: silklist@lists.hserus.net Reply-To: silklist@lists.hserus.net Subject: Re: [silk] India: global mobility The ecnr regime is on Kids whose parents are graduates, both have passports etc are eligible for ecnr But if you don't need it it isn't stamped on your passport, only an ecr is stamped -- srs (blackberry) -Original Message- From: thew...@gmail.com Sender: silklist-bounces+suresh=hserus@lists.hserus.net Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2012 04:39:50 To: silklist@lists.hserus.net Reply-To: silklist@lists.hserus.net Subject: Re: [silk] India: global mobility I'd applied for a passport when I was in school, and didn't have an ECNR stamp, since I wasn't a degree holder at the time. I'd traveled on my passport before, so I got a rude shock when I wasn't allowed to go to the Philippines in 2004. Is the ECNR regime still on? And does it apply even for 3 year old kids traveling with ECNR certified parents? Sent on my BlackBerry® from Vodafone -Original Message- From: salil tripathi sali...@gmail.com Sender: silklist-bounces+thewall=gmail@lists.hserus.net Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2012 15:29:47 To: silklist@lists.hserus.net Reply-To: silklist@lists.hserus.net Subject: Re: [silk] India: global mobility And ec(n)r prevented school-drop-out artists from travelling, since if you hadn't finished hi school, assumption was that sarkar maibaap would be needed to look after you and decide if you were eligible to travel abroad. Sent from my BlackBerry® wireless device -Original Message- From: Thaths tha...@gmail.com Sender: silklist-bounces+salil61=googlemail@lists.hserus.net Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2012 08:26:52 To: silklist@lists.hserus.net Reply-To: silklist@lists.hserus.net Subject: Re: [silk] India: global mobility On Wed, Apr 18, 2012 at 7:46 AM, Srini RamaKrishnan che...@gmail.comwrote: [1] The ECNR/ECR stamp regime did something similar but to no productive end The EC(N)R stamp meant something at the point of origin, not at the destination. I suspect a vast majority of the countries did not know what this chaapa on the passport meant. Thaths -- Homer: Hey, what does this job pay? Carl: Nuthin'. Homer: D'oh! Carl: Unless you're crooked. Homer: Woo-hoo! Sudhakar ChandraSlacker Without Borders
