Re: [silk] What is the greatest human invention?
On 30 January 2012 04:02, Heather Madrone heat...@madrone.com wrote: On 1/29/12 5:39 AM January 29, 2012, John Sundman wrote: Old joke: Radio interviewer: And what would you say is man's greatest invention? Man on street: That's easy. The thermos. RI: The thermos? Why do you say that? MoS: Well, what you put in it is hot, it stays hot. What you put in it is cold, it stays cold. RI: What's so amazing about that? MoS: How do it know? My grandmother (who is now 89) once told me that the greatest inventions of the 20th century were jello and dishwashing detergent. This was towards the end of the Apollo program, so I was mystified at her prosaic list. I could kind of understand the magic of jello, but dishwashing detergent? When she was a girl, all they had was homemade lye soap. When you were done washing the dishes, there was a ring of soap and dirt around the dishpan, and you had to scrub away this filthy mess when you were done with the dishes. She is also a big fan of other modern conveniences like indoor plumbing, central heating, the refrigerator, and the automatic washer. As a girl, they had to do their wash in two big boilers, over a fire in the front yard, using wash-paddles to wring clothes out. Then the clothes were hung to dry (they froze dry in the winter) and they had to be ironed to get the stiffness and the last of the dampness out. As I have gotten older, I have come to appreciate the sheer marvel of a number of prosaic inventions. The lowly screw, for example, that holds our world together. Some years ago, I realized that I would never have thought to wrap an inclined plane around a sharp cone and that the resulting item would become a very secure fastener. I am simply not smart enough to have invented the screw. This was a very humbling realization. So, in the contest of the greatest human invention of all time, I would like to offer SANITATION. The realization that disease is spread by filth and germs came relatively late to human beings. A huge amount of human suffering and death was caused by contaminated water, contact with human waste, and the presence of vermin disease vectors. Diseases of filth, such as typhus, have turned the tides of wars and caused epidemics that laid waste to cities and even continents. Hans Rosling (in this ted talk: http://www.ted.com/talks/hans_rosling_and_the_magic_washing_machine.html) feels that it's the Washing Machine, which is the greatest 'modern' invention, and he makes a fair point, which is based around how much more time it gave women at that time. Apologies if this has been posted earlier. cheers Dibyo
Re: [silk] What is the greatest human invention?
I would argue for ... mathematics. ASIDE: Inspired by EWD1193[0] (and with a nod to XKCD[1]) it appears that despite there famously being no royal road to geometry[2], there is a road suitable --with a bit of plugging and chugging-- for the Little Engine that Could[3]. (End of Aside) -Dave [0] On arcs and angles, Dijkstra, 1994 http://www.cs.utexas.edu/~EWD/ewd11xx/EWD1193.PDF [1] Game AIs, Munroe, 2012 http://www.xkcd.com/1002/ [2] Commentary on the Elements, Proclus, ca. Vème [3] Machine Proofs in Geometry, Chou, Gao, Zhang, 1994 http://www.mmrc.iss.ac.cn/~xgao/paper/book-area.pdf
Re: [silk] What is the greatest human invention?
On Monday 30 Jan 2012 9:22:12 am John Sundman wrote: disconcerting to try to straighten out a matter of a payment that has been made but not properly credited to my account when the possible loss of my home is at stake, with a person who does not understand what I'm saying, whom I must struggle to understand, and who is not familiar with American place names, various forms of address, and so forth. Sounds like something out of Douglas Adams, or the Mahabharata. It turns out that a man in Kolkata or Bhopal (or was it Rajnandgaon?) went to an ATM to withdraw the equivalent of US$ 100 and got an acknowledgement slip telling him that his bank balance was several million Rupees more than he had deposited in the bank He did not take that lying down and complained to the bank that there were at least 4 extra zeros in the figure quoted as his bank balance. I just wonder if there was some extra dimensional connection that made your payment go into this man's account, and a karmic connection where he owed you one from a prvious birth, so he was honest enough to say the money was not his? Strange world. shiv
Re: [silk] What is the greatest human invention?
On Jan 30, 2012, at 5:15 AM, ss wrote: Sounds like something out of Douglas Adams, or the Mahabharata. It turns out that a man in Kolkata or Bhopal (or was it Rajnandgaon?) went to an ATM to withdraw the equivalent of US$ 100 and got an acknowledgement slip telling him that his bank balance was several million Rupees more than he had deposited in the bank He did not take that lying down and complained to the bank that there were at least 4 extra zeros in the figure quoted as his bank balance. I just wonder if there was some extra dimensional connection that made your payment go into this man's account, and a karmic connection where he owed you one from a prvious birth, so he was honest enough to say the money was not his? Strange world. shiv A few years ago I was in California on business. My wife was in the hospital in Massachusetts, two of my three (adult) children were very seriously ill, and I had a million other worries, personal and financial. It was in this context that I found one morning that my bank balance was zero and that I had been frozen out of the account. I called the bank to find out what on earth was wrong, since the balance should have been about $2,500. I turns out that the State of Massachusetts, in its wisdom, had decided that I owed $2500 in back income taxes, and without warning, put a levy on my account. By some miracle I was able to get the matter straightened out by telephone. (This really is miraculous; I had a similar problem with the IRS that went on for ten years and cost me $20,000 or so -- money I did not owe.) Anyway it turned out that I was due a *refund* of $2,500. Within a day they had restored my $2,500 and added $2,500 to it. But that was a very tense couple of days, for I was so worried about my wife's health that I did not dare to tell her we had no money, and had to deal with my worries alone. I'm still kind of astounded that I was able to get the matter resolved so quickly. As to Bangalore, I meant no slight to the city or its people; indeed I would love to see Bangalore some day. I think that would be a delight. I do think it's funny that call center operators introduce themselves with American-sounding first names. On the other hand, when I was a Peace Corps Volunteer in Senegal many years ago, I was given and used a Senegalese name. But I think it would be nice to hear real Indian names. Regards, jrs
Re: [silk] What is the greatest human invention?
Strange world. shiv A few years ago I was in California on business. My wife was in the hospital in Massachusetts, two of my three (adult) children were very seriously ill, and I had a million other worries, personal and financial. It was in this context that I found one morning that my bank balance was zero and that I had been frozen out of the account. There's an anecdote in Whoops! Why Everyone Owes Everyone and No One Can Pay [1] where an Icelandic student in the UK was unable to access her Icelandic bank account for three weeks at the onset of the financial crisis in 2008. This was due to her government freezing the outflow of cash from Iceland. Possibly the invention of some of the more esoteric financial instruments of the past ten years surely have to be amongst the *worst* human inventions. Keith [1] http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/7157126/Whoops-Why-Everyone-Owes-Ever yone-and-NoOne-Can-Pay-by-John-Lanchester-review.html This email was scanned by BitDefender.
Re: [silk] What is the greatest human invention?
On Sat, Jan 28, 2012 at 7:15 PM, ss cybers...@gmail.com wrote: A fraught question, eh? :) Man's greatest invention? Agriculture Agriculture led to settlements and leisure. Leisure led to writing and art experiemnation and wheels. I thought of agriculture too ... but I would go a step further and say that the invention before agriculture was religion, which made people form groups of common ideology and work together and farm.
Re: [silk] What is the greatest human invention?
On Jan 29, 2012, at 7:21 AM, ashok _ wrote: On Sat, Jan 28, 2012 at 7:15 PM, ss cybers...@gmail.com wrote: A fraught question, eh? :) Man's greatest invention? Agriculture Agriculture led to settlements and leisure. Leisure led to writing and art experiemnation and wheels. I thought of agriculture too ... but I would go a step further and say that the invention before agriculture was religion, which made people form groups of common ideology and work together and farm. Old joke: Radio interviewer: And what would you say is man's greatest invention? Man on street: That's easy. The thermos. RI: The thermos? Why do you say that? MoS: Well, what you put in it is hot, it stays hot. What you put in it is cold, it stays cold. RI: What's so amazing about that? MoS: How do it know? regards, jrs P.S. In my house, my wife and I use the phrase how do it know? to express amazement, especially when some technology, such as a new DVD player, actually works when you set it up instead of not working for some unfathomable reason that makes you want to smash it to bits (before you give up, swallow your pride, and call the 800 help number and get connected to a very nice young woman in Bangalore named Jenny who has a very bad fake American accent, but who figures out how to get your DVD working.)
Re: [silk] What is the greatest human invention?
On 1/29/12 5:39 AM January 29, 2012, John Sundman wrote: Old joke: Radio interviewer: And what would you say is man's greatest invention? Man on street: That's easy. The thermos. RI: The thermos? Why do you say that? MoS: Well, what you put in it is hot, it stays hot. What you put in it is cold, it stays cold. RI: What's so amazing about that? MoS: How do it know? My grandmother (who is now 89) once told me that the greatest inventions of the 20th century were jello and dishwashing detergent. This was towards the end of the Apollo program, so I was mystified at her prosaic list. I could kind of understand the magic of jello, but dishwashing detergent? When she was a girl, all they had was homemade lye soap. When you were done washing the dishes, there was a ring of soap and dirt around the dishpan, and you had to scrub away this filthy mess when you were done with the dishes. She is also a big fan of other modern conveniences like indoor plumbing, central heating, the refrigerator, and the automatic washer. As a girl, they had to do their wash in two big boilers, over a fire in the front yard, using wash-paddles to wring clothes out. Then the clothes were hung to dry (they froze dry in the winter) and they had to be ironed to get the stiffness and the last of the dampness out. As I have gotten older, I have come to appreciate the sheer marvel of a number of prosaic inventions. The lowly screw, for example, that holds our world together. Some years ago, I realized that I would never have thought to wrap an inclined plane around a sharp cone and that the resulting item would become a very secure fastener. I am simply not smart enough to have invented the screw. This was a very humbling realization. So, in the contest of the greatest human invention of all time, I would like to offer SANITATION. The realization that disease is spread by filth and germs came relatively late to human beings. A huge amount of human suffering and death was caused by contaminated water, contact with human waste, and the presence of vermin disease vectors. Diseases of filth, such as typhus, have turned the tides of wars and caused epidemics that laid waste to cities and even continents. regards, jrs P.S. In my house, my wife and I use the phrase how do it know? to express amazement, especially when some technology, such as a new DVD player, actually works when you set it up instead of not working for some unfathomable reason that makes you want to smash it to bits (before you give up, swallow your pride, and call the 800 help number and get connected to a very nice young woman in Bangalore named Jenny who has a very bad fake American accent, but who figures out how to get your DVD working.) Wait. You have actually had success in recent years with a call to a support center? I no longer even try. If Google doesn't know the answer, it's time to send the thing back where it came from and get one that Google can understand. -- Heather Madrone (heat...@madrone.com) http://www.sunsplinter.blogspot.com Power at its best is love implementing the demands of justice. Justice at its best is power correcting everything that stands against love. - Martin Luther King
Re: [silk] What is the greatest human invention?
Three nights ago, for some reason, our 3-month-old DVD player stopped communicating with our television, into which it was plugged. The audio worked but the video didn't. After trying to figure out what was wrong and re-connecting cables and rebooting, etc, for fifteen minutes or so, I called the 800 number listed on a sticker on the machine and was soon connected to a nice woman, who, by her voice, seemed pretty young to me, who told me her name was Jenny. She had a peculiar accent, which to my non-linguistically-trained ears I would describe as 2 parts American Television, 2 parts Kate Middleton, and 6 parts Hindi. (I don't recall if I asked her if she was in Bangalore. I usually do, because the question interests me. I've probably asked this questions ten times, with yes being the answer 6 times, I can't talk about that being the answer twice, and a hangup/disconnect being the answer twice. After leading me through ten minutes of useless exercises (which I had already done) such as powering on and off, etc, Jenny said, Now, here's what we're going to do. Hold down the 'Stop' button for ten seconds. Sure enough, that worked, and within another minute my wife was watching her Jane Eyre DVD. (Why Jenny couldn't have listened to me when I told her I had already rebooted, etc, saved me ten minutes and just told me to hold down the stop button for ten seconds (thereby saving me ten minutes of time frustration) is not too hard to fathom. She's paid to follow a script, and she follows it. Facts don't concern her. (Nor should they, I guess, at the minimal wage she's presumably paid)). The best part of the whole encounter was when 'Jenny' helpfully and politely explained that the whole hold down the stop button for ten seconds business was explained on page 26 of the manual that shipped with the machine I had bought, so that if this problem ever came up again I could just turn to that instead of calling the help line. Regards, jrs On Jan 29, 2012, at 3:02 PM, Heather Madrone wrote: Wait. You have actually had success in recent years with a call to a support center?
Re: [silk] What is the greatest human invention?
The best part of the whole encounter was when 'Jenny' helpfully and politely explained that the whole hold down the stop button for ten seconds business was explained on page 26 of the manual that shipped with the machine I had bought, so that if this problem ever came up again I could just turn to that instead of calling the help line. When Heather takes to Google, she'd have a decidedly less polite forum post that simply says RTFM. :) -- Sumant Srivathsan http://sumants.blogspot.com
Re: [silk] What is the greatest human invention?
Let us put it this way. Bangalore or not, tech support does have to follow a script so you, and they, know for sure that troubleshooting step X was done. And yes, whatever it is, is usually documented in the manual or online -- srs (blackberry) -Original Message- From: John Sundman j...@wetmachine.com Sender: silklist-bounces+suresh=hserus@lists.hserus.net Date: Sun, 29 Jan 2012 21:28:09 To: silklist@lists.hserus.net Reply-To: silklist@lists.hserus.net Subject: Re: [silk] What is the greatest human invention? Three nights ago, for some reason, our 3-month-old DVD player stopped communicating with our television, into which it was plugged. The audio worked but the video didn't. After trying to figure out what was wrong and re-connecting cables and rebooting, etc, for fifteen minutes or so, I called the 800 number listed on a sticker on the machine and was soon connected to a nice woman, who, by her voice, seemed pretty young to me, who told me her name was Jenny. She had a peculiar accent, which to my non-linguistically-trained ears I would describe as 2 parts American Television, 2 parts Kate Middleton, and 6 parts Hindi. (I don't recall if I asked her if she was in Bangalore. I usually do, because the question interests me. I've probably asked this questions ten times, with yes being the answer 6 times, I can't talk about that being the answer twice, and a hangup/disconnect being the answer twice. After leading me through ten minutes of useless exercises (which I had already done) such as powering on and off, etc, Jenny said, Now, here's what we're going to do. Hold down the 'Stop' button for ten seconds. Sure enough, that worked, and within another minute my wife was watching her Jane Eyre DVD. (Why Jenny couldn't have listened to me when I told her I had already rebooted, etc, saved me ten minutes and just told me to hold down the stop button for ten seconds (thereby saving me ten minutes of time frustration) is not too hard to fathom. She's paid to follow a script, and she follows it. Facts don't concern her. (Nor should they, I guess, at the minimal wage she's presumably paid)). The best part of the whole encounter was when 'Jenny' helpfully and politely explained that the whole hold down the stop button for ten seconds business was explained on page 26 of the manual that shipped with the machine I had bought, so that if this problem ever came up again I could just turn to that instead of calling the help line. Regards, jrs On Jan 29, 2012, at 3:02 PM, Heather Madrone wrote: Wait. You have actually had success in recent years with a call to a support center?
Re: [silk] What is the greatest human invention?
Gentle reminder, irony-wise, for those of you who have not yet internalized my resume: I've written about fifty manuals, hardware and software. I was manager of technical publications at Sun Microsystems for nine years, where I supervised a group of nearly fifty technical writers and was responsible for the production of a few hundred technical manuals each year. I've been manager of technical publications or information architecture of (depending on how you count) 3 or 4 Silicon Valley companies. I've ghostwritten books on how to manage software development. So as you can imagine, as a manager of technical publications I'm spent years in close working relationships with managers of technical support. My three children (now ages 31, 28, 23) all knew the meaning of RTFM before their fifth birthdays. In our household, we *always* RTFM. OR at any rate, *I* RTFM, unless it's past 10 PM, I'm tired, my wife is frustrated, and I was in the middle of doing something else when she reached her limit called me to come downstairs to help her. So yes, we always RTFM out of personal and professional pride. But we are fallible. And sometimes, !!surprise!! the manual sucks! And sometimes !!double-surprise!! technical support sucks. As a matter of policy, for whatever it may say about me, I'll deal with anybody on the other end of the line, whatever their accent, for help with a television or a video player or anything like that. But when it comes to my mortgage, I won't talk to anybody who isn't talking to me from an office in the continental USA. If I get somebody in India, I ask to be transferred to somebody in USA. I'm happy to put up with cultural friction-loss on matters of no real importance (like DVD players), but when it comes to my mortgage, I draw the line. jrs On Jan 29, 2012, at 9:44 PM, Suresh Ramasubramanian wrote: Let us put it this way. Bangalore or not, tech support does have to follow a script so you, and they, know for sure that troubleshooting step X was done. And yes, whatever it is, is usually documented in the manual or online -- srs (blackberry) From: John Sundman j...@wetmachine.com Sender: silklist-bounces+suresh=hserus@lists.hserus.net Date: Sun, 29 Jan 2012 21:28:09 -0500 To: silklist@lists.hserus.net ReplyTo: silklist@lists.hserus.net Subject: Re: [silk] What is the greatest human invention? Three nights ago, for some reason, our 3-month-old DVD player stopped communicating with our television, into which it was plugged. The audio worked but the video didn't. After trying to figure out what was wrong and re-connecting cables and rebooting, etc, for fifteen minutes or so, I called the 800 number listed on a sticker on the machine and was soon connected to a nice woman, who, by her voice, seemed pretty young to me, who told me her name was Jenny. She had a peculiar accent, which to my non-linguistically-trained ears I would describe as 2 parts American Television, 2 parts Kate Middleton, and 6 parts Hindi. (I don't recall if I asked her if she was in Bangalore. I usually do, because the question interests me. I've probably asked this questions ten times, with yes being the answer 6 times, I can't talk about that being the answer twice, and a hangup/disconnect being the answer twice. After leading me through ten minutes of useless exercises (which I had already done) such as powering on and off, etc, Jenny said, Now, here's what we're going to do. Hold down the 'Stop' button for ten seconds. Sure enough, that worked, and within another minute my wife was watching her Jane Eyre DVD. (Why Jenny couldn't have listened to me when I told her I had already rebooted, etc, saved me ten minutes and just told me to hold down the stop button for ten seconds (thereby saving me ten minutes of time frustration) is not too hard to fathom. She's paid to follow a script, and she follows it. Facts don't concern her. (Nor should they, I guess, at the minimal wage she's presumably paid)). The best part of the whole encounter was when 'Jenny' helpfully and politely explained that the whole hold down the stop button for ten seconds business was explained on page 26 of the manual that shipped with the machine I had bought, so that if this problem ever came up again I could just turn to that instead of calling the help line. Regards, jrs On Jan 29, 2012, at 3:02 PM, Heather Madrone wrote: Wait. You have actually had success in recent years with a call to a support center?
Re: [silk] What is the greatest human invention?
Let us just say that, living in india so that my phone tech support would invariably come from bangalore .. I don't care if my support comes from a call center stateside or in europe instead, for some things at least - like bank loans - I prefer to have clear verbal and written communication with the actual person that makes the decisions. This typically means driving over to my bank and meeting the bank manager and loan officer assigned to my case --Original Message-- From: Charles Haynes Sender: silklist-bounces+suresh=hserus@lists.hserus.net To: silklist@lists.hserus.net ReplyTo: silklist@lists.hserus.net Subject: Re: [silk] What is the greatest human invention? Sent: Jan 30, 2012 08:56 On Mon, Jan 30, 2012 at 11:15 AM, John Sundman j...@wetmachine.com wrote: when it comes to my mortgage, I draw the line. Why? Seriously. Is it because telephone tech support from Bangalore is relatively low quality in all cases, and you're willing to put up with it for most things, but want high-quality technical support for your mortgage? Why is that? Is it because you understand the other things better and so are more confident you can identify the useful information from amongst the chaff, but are less confident in the case of mortgages, or something else? -- Charles -- srs (blackberry)
Re: [silk] What is the greatest human invention?
With my mortgage, the stakes are infinitely higher than with a DVD player or whatever. And the problems are more subtle. It's embarrassing to admit, but I've over the last few years I've teetered on the edge of foreclosure. I've come closer that I care to admit, or to remember, to having my house sold at auction. (Thank Fred Christ that's not my situation now. But having been there, I never want to go back, ever). Earlier in my life I've been homeless. In my experience, it's very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very disconcerting to try to straighten out a matter of a payment that has been made but not properly credited to my account when the possible loss of my home is at stake, with a person who does not understand what I'm saying, whom I must struggle to understand, and who is not familiar with American place names, various forms of address, and so forth. When my home is on the line, I don't want to fuck around with somebody who doesn't understand me and who I don't understand just to save GMAC Mortgage Corporation a few dollars in tech support cost. Of course in theory somebody in Bangalore can understand the subtleties of a problem I'm trying to resolve and can help me resolve it. In my experience, that has never happened; in fact, the opposite has happened on at least four occasions. And, to the best of my ability to figure out what happened, the problem was not that the person in India was stupid or incompetent or ill-meaning or anything like that. He or she just didn't understand what I was trying to explain, and was powerless to do anything to help me. The problem was some combination of linguistic, cultural, and institutional. But in any event, in every case I was able to solve the problem by saying, I insist on talking to somebody based in the USA. Regards, On Jan 29, 2012, at 10:26 PM, Charles Haynes wrote: On Mon, Jan 30, 2012 at 11:15 AM, John Sundman j...@wetmachine.com wrote: when it comes to my mortgage, I draw the line. Why? Seriously. Is it because telephone tech support from Bangalore is relatively low quality in all cases, and you're willing to put up with it for most things, but want high-quality technical support for your mortgage? Why is that? Is it because you understand the other things better and so are more confident you can identify the useful information from amongst the chaff, but are less confident in the case of mortgages, or something else? -- Charles
Re: [silk] What is the greatest human invention?
Hi John It MAY be strategic to sell an asset that has depreciated in value far lower than the amount of outstanding loan you have on it Like buying a 400k home whose value has fallen to 200k, and buying a smaller apartment at closer to normal rates. In such markets it also makes sense to go debt free, 100 percent. -- srs (blackberry) -Original Message- From: John Sundman j...@wetmachine.com Sender: silklist-bounces+suresh=hserus@lists.hserus.net Date: Sun, 29 Jan 2012 22:52:12 To: silklist@lists.hserus.net Reply-To: silklist@lists.hserus.net Subject: Re: [silk] What is the greatest human invention? With my mortgage, the stakes are infinitely higher than with a DVD player or whatever. And the problems are more subtle. It's embarrassing to admit, but I've over the last few years I've teetered on the edge of foreclosure. I've come closer that I care to admit, or to remember, to having my house sold at auction. (Thank Fred Christ that's not my situation now. But having been there, I never want to go back, ever). Earlier in my life I've been homeless. In my experience, it's very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very disconcerting to try to straighten out a matter of a payment that has been made but not properly credited to my account when the possible loss of my home is at stake, with a person who does not understand what I'm saying, whom I must struggle to understand, and who is not familiar with American place names, various forms of address, and so forth. When my home is on the line, I don't want to fuck around with somebody who doesn't understand me and who I don't understand just to save GMAC Mortgage Corporation a few dollars in tech support cost. Of course in theory somebody in Bangalore can understand the subtleties of a problem I'm trying to resolve and can help me resolve it. In my experience, that has never happened; in fact, the opposite has happened on at least four occasions. And, to the best of my ability to figure out what happened, the problem was not that the person in India was stupid or incompetent or ill-meaning or anything like that. He or she just didn't understand what I was trying to explain, and was powerless to do anything to help me. The problem was some combination of linguistic, cultural, and institutional. But in any event, in every case I was able to solve the problem by saying, I insist on talking to somebody based in the USA. Regards, On Jan 29, 2012, at 10:26 PM, Charles Haynes wrote: On Mon, Jan 30, 2012 at 11:15 AM, John Sundman j...@wetmachine.com wrote: when it comes to my mortgage, I draw the line. Why? Seriously. Is it because telephone tech support from Bangalore is relatively low quality in all cases, and you're willing to put up with it for most things, but want high-quality technical support for your mortgage? Why is that? Is it because you understand the other things better and so are more confident you can identify the useful information from amongst the chaff, but are less confident in the case of mortgages, or something else? -- Charles
Re: [silk] What is the greatest human invention?
On Sunday 29 Jan 2012 5:51:08 pm ashok _ wrote: invention before agriculture was religion, That was the world's worst invention shiv
Re: [silk] What is the greatest human invention?
Hello Suresh, With all due respect, your comment seems at the least presumptuous, if not outright condescending. Do you think I have not considered such things as you suggest -- when, as I've said, I've lived with a virtual gun to my head? My situation is vastly more complicated that I care to elaborate here -- and indeed, contrariwise, I would not be surprised if your own personal life situation contains subtleties and complexities that I never could have imagined. So I guess what I'm saying is, I'm happy to get any friendly advice from any quarter, but maybe we can keep such things off list? I'm john@wetmachine. Regards, jrs On Jan 29, 2012, at 10:56 PM, Suresh Ramasubramanian wrote: Hi John It MAY be strategic to sell an asset that has depreciated in value far lower than the amount of outstanding loan you have on it Like buying a 400k home whose value has fallen to 200k, and buying a smaller apartment at closer to normal rates. In such markets it also makes sense to go debt free, 100 percent.
Re: [silk] What is the greatest human invention?
Hi John This was actually well meant and I am sorry if you thought it condescending. Sometimes in finance cutting losses by exiting an investment of any sort is actually a good way to go. It may not be applicable in your case, I acknowledge. My personal experience has been in closing down some dud insurance + investment type policies to the tune of about 100k rupees annual premium that an agent had sold my wife years back, and replacing them with term life insurance plans -- srs (blackberry) -Original Message- From: John Sundman j...@wetmachine.com Sender: silklist-bounces+suresh=hserus@lists.hserus.net Date: Sun, 29 Jan 2012 23:19:50 To: silklist@lists.hserus.net Reply-To: silklist@lists.hserus.net Subject: Re: [silk] What is the greatest human invention? Hello Suresh, With all due respect, your comment seems at the least presumptuous, if not outright condescending. Do you think I have not considered such things as you suggest -- when, as I've said, I've lived with a virtual gun to my head? My situation is vastly more complicated that I care to elaborate here -- and indeed, contrariwise, I would not be surprised if your own personal life situation contains subtleties and complexities that I never could have imagined. So I guess what I'm saying is, I'm happy to get any friendly advice from any quarter, but maybe we can keep such things off list? I'm john@wetmachine. Regards, jrs On Jan 29, 2012, at 10:56 PM, Suresh Ramasubramanian wrote: Hi John It MAY be strategic to sell an asset that has depreciated in value far lower than the amount of outstanding loan you have on it Like buying a 400k home whose value has fallen to 200k, and buying a smaller apartment at closer to normal rates. In such markets it also makes sense to go debt free, 100 percent.
Re: [silk] What is the greatest human invention?
Suresh, Sorry if I responded too testily. I appreciate your good wishes. I'm sure I have a bit of a hair trigger, having received over the years people telling me my wife you should do this or your should do that when they have no idea what our actual circumstances are, why we have made the decisions we have made, what constraints we are under. I do understand that it's sometimes best to cut one's losses. In our case, it makes the most sense, insofar as we are able to judge, to hold on to what we have. Under the terms of our new mortgage, we're paying 2% interest, and that's locked in for the next several years. The highest it can go is 4.5%. If, a few years from now it seems that we should sell, we'll find some way to come to terms with that, I'm sure. Although we're not getting any younger, and the prospect is not enticing. Thanks for your clarification, jrs On Jan 29, 2012, at 11:28 PM, Suresh Ramasubramanian wrote: Hi John This was actually well meant and I am sorry if you thought it condescending. Sometimes in finance cutting losses by exiting an investment of any sort is actually a good way to go. It may not be applicable in your case, I acknowledge. My personal experience has been in closing down some dud insurance + investment type policies to the tune of about 100k rupees annual premium that an agent had sold my wife years back, and replacing them with term life insurance plans -- srs (blackberry) -Original Message- From: John Sundman j...@wetmachine.com Sender: silklist-bounces+suresh=hserus@lists.hserus.net Date: Sun, 29 Jan 2012 23:19:50 To: silklist@lists.hserus.net Reply-To: silklist@lists.hserus.net Subject: Re: [silk] What is the greatest human invention? Hello Suresh, With all due respect, your comment seems at the least presumptuous, if not outright condescending. Do you think I have not considered such things as you suggest -- when, as I've said, I've lived with a virtual gun to my head? My situation is vastly more complicated that I care to elaborate here -- and indeed, contrariwise, I would not be surprised if your own personal life situation contains subtleties and complexities that I never could have imagined. So I guess what I'm saying is, I'm happy to get any friendly advice from any quarter, but maybe we can keep such things off list? I'm john@wetmachine. Regards, jrs On Jan 29, 2012, at 10:56 PM, Suresh Ramasubramanian wrote: Hi John It MAY be strategic to sell an asset that has depreciated in value far lower than the amount of outstanding loan you have on it Like buying a 400k home whose value has fallen to 200k, and buying a smaller apartment at closer to normal rates. In such markets it also makes sense to go debt free, 100 percent.
Re: [silk] What is the greatest human invention?
You are lucky, out there. We in india have to deal with home loan rates greater than 10% pa, reducing balance. The only advantage is tax breaks on principal and interest payments -- srs (blackberry) -Original Message- From: John Sundman j...@wetmachine.com Sender: silklist-bounces+suresh=hserus@lists.hserus.net Date: Sun, 29 Jan 2012 23:39:47 To: silklist@lists.hserus.net Reply-To: silklist@lists.hserus.net Subject: Re: [silk] What is the greatest human invention? Suresh, Sorry if I responded too testily. I appreciate your good wishes. I'm sure I have a bit of a hair trigger, having received over the years people telling me my wife you should do this or your should do that when they have no idea what our actual circumstances are, why we have made the decisions we have made, what constraints we are under. I do understand that it's sometimes best to cut one's losses. In our case, it makes the most sense, insofar as we are able to judge, to hold on to what we have. Under the terms of our new mortgage, we're paying 2% interest, and that's locked in for the next several years. The highest it can go is 4.5%. If, a few years from now it seems that we should sell, we'll find some way to come to terms with that, I'm sure. Although we're not getting any younger, and the prospect is not enticing. Thanks for your clarification, jrs On Jan 29, 2012, at 11:28 PM, Suresh Ramasubramanian wrote: Hi John This was actually well meant and I am sorry if you thought it condescending. Sometimes in finance cutting losses by exiting an investment of any sort is actually a good way to go. It may not be applicable in your case, I acknowledge. My personal experience has been in closing down some dud insurance + investment type policies to the tune of about 100k rupees annual premium that an agent had sold my wife years back, and replacing them with term life insurance plans -- srs (blackberry) -Original Message- From: John Sundman j...@wetmachine.com Sender: silklist-bounces+suresh=hserus@lists.hserus.net Date: Sun, 29 Jan 2012 23:19:50 To: silklist@lists.hserus.net Reply-To: silklist@lists.hserus.net Subject: Re: [silk] What is the greatest human invention? Hello Suresh, With all due respect, your comment seems at the least presumptuous, if not outright condescending. Do you think I have not considered such things as you suggest -- when, as I've said, I've lived with a virtual gun to my head? My situation is vastly more complicated that I care to elaborate here -- and indeed, contrariwise, I would not be surprised if your own personal life situation contains subtleties and complexities that I never could have imagined. So I guess what I'm saying is, I'm happy to get any friendly advice from any quarter, but maybe we can keep such things off list? I'm john@wetmachine. Regards, jrs On Jan 29, 2012, at 10:56 PM, Suresh Ramasubramanian wrote: Hi John It MAY be strategic to sell an asset that has depreciated in value far lower than the amount of outstanding loan you have on it Like buying a 400k home whose value has fallen to 200k, and buying a smaller apartment at closer to normal rates. In such markets it also makes sense to go debt free, 100 percent.
Re: [silk] What is the greatest human invention?
On Mon, Jan 30, 2012 at 9:22 AM, John Sundman j...@wetmachine.com wrote: Of course in theory somebody in Bangalore can understand the subtleties of a problem I'm trying to resolve and can help me resolve it. While not a native Bangalorean, I've lived here a long time and I consider it home. I mourn the loss of the quiet, civilized town that I moved to. I hate the fact that the software and call centre boom has turned it into a crowded, polluted, crass sprawl. I especially hate that it's caricatured as the call centre capital of the world. There's a whole lot more to Bangalore than call centres: software dev, manufacturing and more. There's a small but active theatre, music and art scene. The restaurant scene has greatly improved: it's a lot more cosmopolitan -- though the quality is inconsistent. Bangalore may not the best place to live in India, but it sure as hell doesn't deserve to be used as a shorthand for crappy foreign call centre. -- b
Re: [silk] What is the greatest human invention?
On Mon, Jan 30, 2012 at 10:45 AM, Biju Chacko biju.cha...@gmail.com wrote: While not a native Bangalorean, I've lived here a long time and I consider it home. I mourn the loss of the quiet, civilized town that I moved to. I hate the fact that the software and call centre boom has turned it into a crowded, polluted, crass sprawl. I especially hate that it's caricatured as the call centre capital of the world. There's a whole lot more to Bangalore than call centres: software dev, manufacturing and more. There's a small but active theatre, music and art scene. The restaurant scene has greatly improved: it's a lot more cosmopolitan -- though the quality is inconsistent. And being a native Bangalorean, I echo all this.
Re: [silk] What is the greatest human invention?
From: Thejaswi Udupa thejaswi.ud...@gmail.com To: silklist@lists.hserus.net Sent: Monday, 30 January 2012 10:57 AM Subject: Re: [silk] What is the greatest human invention? On Mon, Jan 30, 2012 at 10:45 AM, Biju Chacko biju.cha...@gmail.com wrote: While not a native Bangalorean, I've lived here a long time and I consider it home. I mourn the loss of the quiet, civilized town that I moved to. I hate the fact that the software and call centre boom has turned it into a crowded, polluted, crass sprawl. I especially hate that it's caricatured as the call centre capital of the world. There's a whole lot more to Bangalore than call centres: software dev, manufacturing and more. There's a small but active theatre, music and art scene. The restaurant scene has greatly improved: it's a lot more cosmopolitan -- though the quality is inconsistent. And being a native Bangalorean, I echo all this. And not being a native Bangalorean, non-resident at that, I echo all this too. A pox on those who offload their dirty work and then call the laundry a slum. JRS explicitly excluded.
Re: [silk] What is the greatest human invention?
On Mon, Jan 30, 2012 at 7:39 AM, John Sundman j...@wetmachine.com wrote: Under the terms of our new mortgage, we're paying 2% interest, and that's locked in for the next several years. The highest it can go is 4.5%. If, a few years from now it seems that we should sell, we'll find some way to come to terms with that, I'm sure. Although we're not getting any younger, and the prospect is not enticing. if it will make you feel any better: the home loan interest rate in Nairobi is 23% . Inflation is somewhere between 27 and 32%. Unbelievably there is no shortage of people willing to take on such loans. Rents are hideously inflated because of high mortgage payments. Its only a matter of time before when the bubble bursts. Some banks will give you a fixed deposit interest rate of 16-17% if you are willing to deposit the equivalent of $10,000 or more.
Re: [silk] What is the greatest human invention?
On 28 January 2012 12:45, Udhay Shankar N ud...@pobox.com wrote: On 28/01/12 6:26 AM, Charles Haynes wrote: I would argue for the scientific method, or mathematics. It can be argued that neither of the above would have got any traction without the invention of writing, no? Language, which allowed communication even before writing should be considered, no? -gabin -- measure with a micrometer, mark with a chalk, cut with an axe
Re: [silk] What is the greatest human invention?
On Sat, Jan 28, 2012 at 12:45:40PM +0530, Udhay Shankar N wrote: On 28/01/12 6:26 AM, Charles Haynes wrote: I would argue for the scientific method, or mathematics. It can be argued that neither of the above would have got any traction without the invention of writing, no? It seems that telecommunication/computing relates to writing as writing relates to spoken language -- with the added advantage of being able to build abstract machines, which proliferate and function without the context of its human authors, or even a human at all in the loop. It's pretty obvious that abstract machines will be able to become flesh as soon as sufficiently useful rapid prototyping systems become available to end users. Consider how rapidly eBooks overtook the dead tree as soon as good-enough substitutes became available. I'm seeing 10^6 volume pirate libraries around, so inviduals can easily obtain and own what used to be a major national resource. The only fly in the ointment is that we were born too soon. Most of interesting things will happen when we're past caring.
Re: [silk] What is the greatest human invention?
On Jan 28, 2012 5:32 PM, gabin kattukaran gkattuka...@gmail.com wrote: On 28 January 2012 12:45, Udhay Shankar N ud...@pobox.com wrote: On 28/01/12 6:26 AM, Charles Haynes wrote: I would argue for the scientific method, or mathematics. It can be argued that neither of the above would have got any traction without the invention of writing, no? Language, which allowed communication even before writing should be considered, no? Isn't language innate, not invented? Don't other species besides humans have language? If you ate willing to accept argument by passive voice it can beer argued that writing is not necessary, but only an efficiency improvement. Mathematics is about abstraction and the manipulation of abstractions. An entirely new way of thinking about the world. The scientific method is about extending mathematical reasoning beyond syllogisms. Going from induction to deduction. Again an entirely new way of thinking rigorously about the world. -- Charles
Re: [silk] What is the greatest human invention?
If you ate willing to accept argument by passive voice it can beer argued that writing is not necessary, but only an efficiency improvement. Ate = are Beer = be Thank you autocorrect. Sent from my galaxy note. -- Charles
Re: [silk] What is the greatest human invention?
Were you hungry when you posted that? :) Subconscious and all that -- srs (blackberry) -Original Message- From: Charles Haynes hay...@edgeplay.org Sender: silklist-bounces+suresh=hserus@lists.hserus.net Date: Sat, 28 Jan 2012 19:51:22 To: silklist@lists.hserus.net Reply-To: silklist@lists.hserus.net Subject: Re: [silk] What is the greatest human invention? If you ate willing to accept argument by passive voice it can beer argued that writing is not necessary, but only an efficiency improvement. Ate = are Beer = be Thank you autocorrect. Sent from my galaxy note. -- Charles
Re: [silk] What is the greatest human invention?
On Sat, Jan 28, 2012 at 5:21 PM, Charles Haynes hay...@edgeplay.org wrote: Ate = are Beer = be Thank you autocorrect. Your autocorrect places food and drink over auxiliary verbs. How very epicurean!
Re: [silk] What is the greatest human invention?
The only fly in the ointment is that we were born too soon. Most of interesting things will happen when we're past caring. I think this is what everyone, from Cro-Magnon Man onwards, must be feeling when they (ha, gender-unspecific pronoun which the purists will carp at) contemplate the future! I also hereby propound Deepa's Theory of the Ascent of Humankind (which, of course, must have been thunk and expressed much better by someone much earlier) that the future, even in our own lifetimes, will consist of inventions and discoveries that we cannot or do not envisage now, or which we believe at present to be impossible.
Re: [silk] What is the greatest human invention?
On Sat, Jan 28, 2012 at 3:48 AM, Charles Haynes hay...@edgeplay.org wrote: On Jan 28, 2012 5:32 PM, gabin kattukaran gkattuka...@gmail.com wrote: Language, which allowed communication even before writing should be considered, no? Isn't language innate, not invented? Don't other species besides humans have language? A linguist friend of mine says that while many species communicate, it is only homo sapiens that have language. I have a strong intuition (based on many previous claims of such human exceptionalism that proved to be untrue) is that this is an arbitrary distinction that will fall away. Mathematics is about abstraction and the manipulation of abstractions. An entirely new way of thinking about the world. What if it is shown that bird brains are capable of doing basic arithmetic? Thaths -- Homer: Hey, what does this job pay? Carl: Nuthin'. Homer: D'oh! Carl: Unless you're crooked. Homer: Woo-hoo! Sudhakar Chandra Slacker Without Borders
Re: [silk] What is the greatest human invention?
On Sat, Jan 28, 2012 at 8:57 PM, Thaths tha...@gmail.com wrote A linguist friend of mine says that while many species communicate, it is only homo sapiens that have language. I have a strong intuition (based on many previous claims of such human exceptionalism that proved to be untrue) is that this is an arbitrary distinction that will fall away. Mathematics is about abstraction and the manipulation of abstractions. An entirely new way of thinking about the world. What if it is shown that bird brains are capable of doing basic arithmetic? Then we can find a mathematician who says that while many species can do basic calculation, it is only Homo sapiens that does arithmetic. I cannot think of anything less abstract than numbers. To me, a number is such a pre-determined, nailed-down, inflexible in-your-face constant.
Re: [silk] What is the greatest human invention?
On Sat, Jan 28, 2012 at 09:05:57PM +0530, Deepa Mohan wrote: Then we can find a mathematician who says that while many species can do basic calculation, it is only Homo sapiens that does arithmetic. Birds can count well enough. You should see what some corvidae can do, now that's primate-level performance from a much, much smaller brain. Just like the Portia spiders, some species manage to be much smarter than others, all other things being equal. I cannot think of anything less abstract than numbers. To me, a number is such a pre-determined, nailed-down, inflexible in-your-face constant. If you have to keep track of stored food, then the concepts of time, location and quantity are easy, since a matter of survival. Failing that particular fitness test is not an option.
Re: [silk] What is the greatest human invention?
On Friday 27 Jan 2012 11:30:44 pm Udhay Shankar N wrote: A fraught question, eh? :) Man's greatest invention? Agriculture Agriculture led to settlements and leisure. Leisure led to writing and art experiemnation and wheels. shiv
Re: [silk] What is the greatest human invention?
On Sat, Jan 28, 2012 at 09:45:20PM +0530, ss wrote: On Friday 27 Jan 2012 11:30:44 pm Udhay Shankar N wrote: A fraught question, eh? :) Man's greatest invention? Agriculture Agriculture led to settlements and leisure. Leisure led to writing and art experiemnation and wheels. Actually, agriculture resulted in much more labor and less leisure as compared to hunter-gatherer, and a considerable decline in health as result of poorer nutrition. We did it because we ran into limitations of population sustainability/ carrying capacity of the ecosystem at a particular technology level.
Re: [silk] What is the greatest human invention?
On Sat, Jan 28, 2012 at 1:56 AM, Charles Haynes hay...@edgeplay.org wrote: I would argue for the scientific method *curses* I would ignore Silk right now for lack of time, but this claim is an important point to nuance, else it is dangerous. Forgive me, for I am going to telescope a bit because I have little time, however I think you can fill out the missing bits - please ask if something isn't clear. My responses maybe slower than usual in coming. The scientific method has delivered us a lot, no doubt about that. However the method has also been reaching diminishing marginal returns in many areas. It is being increasingly successfully circumvented (not necessarily willfully or deliberately) in ways that are as yet not widely understood. For example, today any clever person, and not just big tobacco, can fund a research using the best of science to prove opposing conclusions rather easily. (For lack of time I can't point you to the recent Harvard(?) Medical Journal paper where a jaded doctor proves conclusively that smoking improves athletic performance) So, scientific proof is sometimes an unreliable compass, and more so today when manipulation and bad science are more common. There hasn't been enough (mostly any?) serious debate on this. We are basing our knowledge increasingly on very feeble foundations, and this is dangerous. This isn't the fault of the method or the proof, but of the tests and to some degree a problem of ethics. Next... The way the sci. method works is that its gains are typically incremental - bold leaps of logic are not how scientific method functions. This is neither good nor bad, I'm just observing the nature of the thing. However, let's bear in mind that humans have accumulated useful knowledge for millennia and often in bold leaps, and it has not always been through luck (to claim so would be supreme hubris of this era of science), and the absence of the scientific method then did not prevent the occurrence of good, useful inventions. However these pedagogical/inquiry styles have sadly not been codified the way the scientific method has. An example: You can prove through double blind tests and other proven logical and statistical methods that Yoga has a beneficial effect on the human body and mind. However it is not clear to me that one can use the same scientific method to invent a rather complicated thing like the Yogasutra in one stroke. Thus, Pathanjali's Yogasutra was not a product of the scientific method. Why is this so? The way I see it, scientific method operates on human logic which requires data; however this has two problems. 1. There is a limit to how much data individuals can hold in their heads and computer models at any one time. 2. Data is not always available, and the scientific method deals badly with missing information The way the scientific method gets around the missing information is to propose a model, even one known ab initio to be broken, and iteratively discards this model for a newer (usually better) one over time. This is a great, robust, reliable way of doing things, however we don't always need or desire this level of precision. Human decisions themselves are not always so precise and expensive. Daniel Kahneman's work on decision making that won him the Nobel Prize for Econ. last year touches somewhat on this. At any decision making point we have both expensive decision alternatives and cheap decision alternatives available to us. We often choose to make the approximately correct cheap decision rather than the verifiably correct expensive decision. ex: Would you like some salad dressing with that? French or House? - what decision do we most commonly make here? Expensive or Cheap? We can't launch space crafts on a series of cheap decisions, but we can get to say a holistic model of healing rather quicker with fuzzy decisions. Fuzzy optimization and decision making is still only being superficially understood in today's scientific world, but the collective split brain of the world today would like to believe and behave as if the scientific method is infallible, which it isn't. My purpose isn't to discredit the sci. method - it has won us a lot, but it is important to point out that this isn't something we have fully understood, and there are problems with focussing on a very step-by-step approach. Sci. method does not encourage big picture thinking enough. So we have market models, economic models, medical models, even value and ethical models based on myopic thinking. Problem: Efficient calorie intake Bad decision: Farm factories for meat - factory produced burger - pre-frozen to McDonalds - minimal skill wage slave - incredibly cheap food (only because you ignore the hidden transaction costs) - indigestion and ailments - pharma offers endless solutions to fix this - they have side effects - more medicines - more side effects - more burgers and so on. Better choice: Don't eat stupidly Why do so few people make bad
Re: [silk] What is the greatest human invention?
Correction: It was not last year, but 2002. In the context of: Human decisions themselves are not always so precise and expensive. Daniel Kahneman's work on decision making that won him the Nobel Prize for Econ. last year touches somewhat on this.
Re: [silk] What is the greatest human invention?
On 1/28/12 3:48 AM January 28, 2012, Charles Haynes wrote: On Jan 28, 2012 5:32 PM, gabin kattukaran gkattuka...@gmail.com mailto:gkattuka...@gmail.com wrote: On 28 January 2012 12:45, Udhay Shankar N ud...@pobox.com mailto:ud...@pobox.com wrote: On 28/01/12 6:26 AM, Charles Haynes wrote: I would argue for the scientific method, or mathematics. It can be argued that neither of the above would have got any traction without the invention of writing, no? Language, which allowed communication even before writing should be considered, no? Isn't language innate, not invented? Don't other species besides humans have language? Most experts would say that other animals don't have languages in the same way that human beings do. But if you're going to make that argument, then mathematics is innate, too. Human babies have an innate mathematical ability, and other animals, including ravens, also have innate mathematic ability. If you ate willing to accept argument by passive voice it can beer argued that writing is not necessary, but only an efficiency improvement. Mathematics is about abstraction and the manipulation of abstractions. An entirely new way of thinking about the world. Written language is pretty much also about abstraction and the manipulation of abstractions. Written number systems predated written language in many places, which would place written language on a slightly higher evolutionary plane than number systems. The scientific method is about extending mathematical reasoning beyond syllogisms. Going from induction to deduction. Again an entirely new way of thinking rigorously about the world. I'm fairly certain we're not the only animals capable of deductive reasoning, either. -- Heather Madrone (heat...@madrone.com) http://www.sunsplinter.blogspot.com Power at its best is love implementing the demands of justice. Justice at its best is power correcting everything that stands against love. - Martin Luther King
[silk] What is the greatest human invention?
A fraught question, eh? :) Here's one opinion - a particularly thought-provoking one given the medium we're using to discuss it. Udhay http://moreintelligentlife.com/content/ideas/tom-standage/writing-greatest-invention WRITING IS THE GREATEST INVENTION Tom Standage argues that writing, which allows ideas to travel across space and time, has done the most for human progress ... From INTELLIGENT LIFE magazine, January/February 2012 The greatest invention of all must surely be writing. It is not just one of the foundations of civilisation: it underpins the steady accumulation of intellectual achievement. By capturing ideas in physical form, it allows them to travel across space and time without distortion, and thus slip the bonds of human memory and oral transmission, not to mention the whims of tyrants and the vicissitudes of history. Its origins are prosaic: it was invented by accountants, not poets, in the 4th millennium BC, as a spur of the counting system with which farming societies kept track of agricultural goods. At first transactions were recorded by storing groups of shaped clay tokens – representing wheat, cattle or textiles – in clay envelopes. But why use tokens when pressing one into a tablet of wet clay would do instead? These impressions, in turn, were superseded by symbols scratched or punched into the clay with a stylus. Tokens had given way to writing. As human settlements swelled from villages to the first cities, writing was needed for administrative reasons. But it quickly became more flexible and expressive, capable of capturing the subtleties of human thought, not just lists of rations doled out or kings long dead. And this allowed philosophers, poets and chroniclers to situate their ideas in relation to those of previous thinkers, to argue about them and elaborate upon them. Each generation could build on the ideas of its forebears, making it possible for there to be species-wide progress in philosophy, commerce, science and literature. The amazing thing about writing, given how complicated its early systems were, is that anyone learned it at all. The reason they did is revealed in the ancient Egyptian scribal-training texts, which emphasise the superiority of being a scribe over all other career choices, with titles like “Do Not Be Soldier, Priest or Baker”, “Do Not Be a Husbandman” and “Do Not Be a Charioteer”. This last text begins: “Set thine heart on being a scribe, that thou mayest direct the whole earth.” The earliest scribes understood that literacy was power – a power that now extends to most of humanity, and has done more for human progress than any other invention. Tom Standage is digital editor of The Economist -- ((Udhay Shankar N)) ((udhay @ pobox.com)) ((www.digeratus.com))
Re: [silk] What is the greatest human invention?
On Fri, Jan 27, 2012 at 10:00 AM, Udhay Shankar N ud...@pobox.com wrote: A fraught question, eh? :) Coincidentally, this series of programmes about the written word that recently aired as part of the In Our Time series on the BBC is excellent: http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b0192yhn Thaths -- Homer: Hey, what does this job pay? Carl: Nuthin'. Homer: D'oh! Carl: Unless you're crooked. Homer: Woo-hoo! Sudhakar Chandra Slacker Without Borders
Re: [silk] What is the greatest human invention?
I would argue for the scientific method, or mathematics. -- Charles
Re: [silk] What is the greatest human invention?
On 28/01/12 6:26 AM, Charles Haynes wrote: I would argue for the scientific method, or mathematics. It can be argued that neither of the above would have got any traction without the invention of writing, no? Udhay -- ((Udhay Shankar N)) ((udhay @ pobox.com)) ((www.digeratus.com))
