Re: [silk] Fwd: [jivika] Fwd: [indiathinkersnet] Bangalore: The risingdivorce rate in the IT sector
On Mon, Aug 13, 2007 at 12:46:20PM +0200, Rishab Aiyer Ghosh wrote: someone still has to be at home to give them the midday meal! anyway, switzerland, which gave women the vote in 1974, is hardly a great example of policies to support equal opportunities for women. Strange; whenever I compare what my country does with what Switzerland does, I find they're typically doing the Right Thing(tm). Maybe we shouldn't be too harsh on them. -- Eugen* Leitl a href=http://leitl.org;leitl/a http://leitl.org __ ICBM: 48.07100, 11.36820 http://www.ativel.com http://postbiota.org 8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A 7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE
Re: [silk] Fwd: [jivika] Fwd: [indiathinkersnet] Bangalore: The risingdivorce rate in the IT sector
i didn't say expensive childcare was important, but social treatment of women which may or may not involve state support. women in germany are treated badly both by society and the state. (e.g. the tax system favours non-working married women; the school system requires a parent to pick up the kid for a mid day meal, so if the mother doesn't do it she's a ravensmutter[1]). Now, in Switzerland, the kids are expected to walk themselves back and forth for the mid day meal. One sometimes sees the littlest ones wearing little reflective vest-like things (and there are plenty of signs up now warning drivers that it's almost time for the rentrée and to remember that small children have the right of way) but otherwise they're indistinguishable from everyone else going home (or out -- several places offer special student rates) for lunch. -Dave
Re: [silk] Fwd: [jivika] Fwd: [indiathinkersnet] Bangalore: The risingdivorce rate in the IT sector
On Sat, Aug 11, 2007 at 12:08:05AM +0200, Rishab Aiyer Ghosh wrote: eventually, market forces will result in older people becoming more Eventually, I'm dead, and no longer care. Meanwhile, market forces continue to approach UHV. employable. right now, there are too many younger people around, who are willing to learn and to work at lower salaries. Too bad for those older people, I guess. the economist has been talking about this for ages. e.g. in a special report on the aging workforce [1]: Older workers want to retire later; companies fear they will soon be short of skills. Why can't the two get together? Companies only optimize on a 2-5 years scale. Which is one of the main reasons why markets blow. -rishab 1.http://economist.com/business/displaystory.cfm?story_id=E1_VVTJDPP -- Eugen* Leitl a href=http://leitl.org;leitl/a http://leitl.org __ ICBM: 48.07100, 11.36820 http://www.ativel.com http://postbiota.org 8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A 7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE
Re: [silk] Fwd: [jivika] Fwd: [indiathinkersnet] Bangalore: The risingdivorce rate in the IT sector
On Fri, Aug 10, 2007 at 10:38:02PM +0200, Rishab Aiyer Ghosh wrote: On Wed, 2007-08-08 at 11:00 +0200, Eugen Leitl wrote: Notice that France largely profits from high birth rate in the black this sounds like the mythical nonsense of neo-con eurabia. while france http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_France As you see, the natives are way subreplacement (around 2.1). I don't think it's sustainable. As I said, long term there will a trend reversal, when extremely fertile subgroups autoamplify to the point where they will become visible in the statistics. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sub-replacement_fertility see The American and the Israeli exception. does not collect figures on race and religion, assuming a 10% non-white population [1], and assuming that the white french population has the same fertility rate as white germans, the difference in ratios between germany's 1.39 and france's 2.0 would have to be explained by non-white french women having 7.5 children each, on average. I never claimed France is Germany. for reference, german fertility by ethnicity is 1.39 for whites and 2.4 for turks [2]. in fact, the same source notes that french-born french fertility (which would include some non-whites) is 1.7, compared to 2.6 for french women born in algeria. I believe this was my point. if you like, the link i suggested, that low fertility is a result of social support for women not keeping up with opportunities for women could be applied just to native-borns (to control for opportunities for women) - and you still see (in the same source) the large difference between germany, italy, spain on the one hand, and france, sweden, netherlands and england on the other. I don't understand you. My point was that a family with two career parents have to make enough to afford full-time child care. Formerly, a single wage earner would have been enough. Now, two full-time career professionals can't afford that. Since family network support has disappeared, there is zero surprise. note that in england, and norway, unlike france, some non-white populations have much higher fertility - e.g. in 1996, women born in pakistan and bangladesh living in england had 4.9 children vs 1.7 for those born in england. in 1998 in norway it was 5.2 for somali-born women and 1.7 for native-born norwegians. this could be explained by these women not having the opportunities available to the native population. No disagreement. btw, my argument on the relationship between social support for women's opportunities and fertility is hardly original. a paper from the wonderfully titled Centre for Household, Income, Labour and Demographic Economics (CHILD) makes the same point, with lots of data [3]. -rishab 1. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_France 2. http://paa2007.princeton.edu/download.aspx?submissionId=70869 3. http://iserwww.essex.ac.uk/epunet/2003/docs/pdf/papers/pronzato.pdf -- Eugen* Leitl a href=http://leitl.org;leitl/a http://leitl.org __ ICBM: 48.07100, 11.36820 http://www.ativel.com http://postbiota.org 8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A 7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE
Re: [silk] Fwd: [jivika] Fwd: [indiathinkersnet] Bangalore: The risingdivorce rate in the IT sector
On Wed, 2007-08-08 at 09:47 +0100, B. L. Krieger wrote: i guess you are right here. france for instance made a deliberate choice after the second world war to recruit women to the labout force, whereas germany decided for an immigration policy. however whether there is a correlation is not too sure imho. the uk has reproduction rate comparable to france without an expensive childcare policy. i didn't say expensive childcare was important, but social treatment of women which may or may not involve state support. women in germany are treated badly both by society and the state. (e.g. the tax system favours non-working married women; the school system requires a parent to pick up the kid for a mid day meal, so if the mother doesn't do it she's a ravensmutter[1]). women in britain don't get support from childcare the way french women do, but presumably men help more with the housework. british women also do much better professionally than in many countries on continental europe, excluding scandinavia. i don't really understand why the dutch have such a high fertility rate, since while society pretends to be scandinavian it's pretty german actually, right down to the ridiculous school timings (which supposedly will change soon). the result is that dutch women mostly work just a couple of days a week. they seem happy enough - a writer for the highbrow newspaper wonders why [2], commenting on a recent book that says dutch women don't get depressed. otoh dutch society has always been very pro-children. simon schama quotes [3] commentators from the 15th century noting with surprise that dutch children are never beaten and encouraged to voice their opinion. -rishab 1. fig. bad mother, i was looking for the detailed TIME Europe story that came out a couple of years ago but their search is crap and i only found this: http://womenshistory.about.com/library/ency/blwh_germany_women.htm 2. http://www.duvekot.ca/eliane/archives/001439.html 3. http://www.amazon.com/Embarrassment-Riches-Interpretation-Culture-Golden/dp/0679781242/ref=sr_1_1/103-2180216-6340616?ie=UTF8s=booksqid=1186776681sr=8-1
Re: [silk] Fwd: [jivika] Fwd: [indiathinkersnet] Bangalore: The risingdivorce rate in the IT sector
On Wed, 2007-08-08 at 11:00 +0200, Eugen Leitl wrote: Notice that France largely profits from high birth rate in the black this sounds like the mythical nonsense of neo-con eurabia. while france does not collect figures on race and religion, assuming a 10% non-white population [1], and assuming that the white french population has the same fertility rate as white germans, the difference in ratios between germany's 1.39 and france's 2.0 would have to be explained by non-white french women having 7.5 children each, on average. for reference, german fertility by ethnicity is 1.39 for whites and 2.4 for turks [2]. in fact, the same source notes that french-born french fertility (which would include some non-whites) is 1.7, compared to 2.6 for french women born in algeria. if you like, the link i suggested, that low fertility is a result of social support for women not keeping up with opportunities for women could be applied just to native-borns (to control for opportunities for women) - and you still see (in the same source) the large difference between germany, italy, spain on the one hand, and france, sweden, netherlands and england on the other. note that in england, and norway, unlike france, some non-white populations have much higher fertility - e.g. in 1996, women born in pakistan and bangladesh living in england had 4.9 children vs 1.7 for those born in england. in 1998 in norway it was 5.2 for somali-born women and 1.7 for native-born norwegians. this could be explained by these women not having the opportunities available to the native population. btw, my argument on the relationship between social support for women's opportunities and fertility is hardly original. a paper from the wonderfully titled Centre for Household, Income, Labour and Demographic Economics (CHILD) makes the same point, with lots of data [3]. -rishab 1. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_France 2. http://paa2007.princeton.edu/download.aspx?submissionId=70869 3. http://iserwww.essex.ac.uk/epunet/2003/docs/pdf/papers/pronzato.pdf
Re: [silk] Fwd: [jivika] Fwd: [indiathinkersnet] Bangalore: The risingdivorce rate in the IT sector
On Wed, 2007-08-08 at 13:24 +0200, Eugen Leitl wrote: Already 50-year olds are virtually unemployable in the modern economy, while the official retirement age has been bumped up to 67 years. It will be 70 soon, so how do you feed a large fraction of your populace clothed, fed, and in good health? eventually, market forces will result in older people becoming more employable. right now, there are too many younger people around, who are willing to learn and to work at lower salaries. the economist has been talking about this for ages. e.g. in a special report on the aging workforce [1]: Older workers want to retire later; companies fear they will soon be short of skills. Why can't the two get together? -rishab 1.http://economist.com/business/displaystory.cfm?story_id=E1_VVTJDPP
Re: [silk] Fwd: [jivika] Fwd: [indiathinkersnet] Bangalore: The risingdivorce rate in the IT sector
On Aug 7 2007, Rishab Aiyer Ghosh wrote: note that the highest birthrates in europe are in societies where opportunities for women have been matched by their social treatment, such as scandinavia and to some extent france (where state or employer childcare is of a relatively high standard). in some of these countries, native population birthrates are at almost replacement levels. (though births - and upbringing of children - are often outside marriage). i guess you are right here. france for instance made a deliberate choice after the second world war to recruit women to the labout force, whereas germany decided for an immigration policy. however whether there is a correlation is not too sure imho. the uk has reproduction rate comparable to france without an expensive childcare policy. while these solutions are expensive, often for the taxpayer, the alternative, of a greying society supported by a shrinking working-age population, is much more expensive. maybe reproduction is overrated? immigration would be by far cheaper and more sustainable on a global scale. --bernhard
Re: [silk] Fwd: [jivika] Fwd: [indiathinkersnet] Bangalore: The risingdivorce rate in the IT sector
On Wed, Aug 08, 2007 at 09:47:36AM +0100, B. L. Krieger wrote: i guess you are right here. france for instance made a deliberate choice after the second world war to recruit women to the labout force, whereas germany decided for an immigration policy. however whether there is a correlation is not too sure imho. the uk has reproduction rate comparable to france without an expensive childcare policy. Notice that France largely profits from high birth rate in the black immigrants demographics. I don't think this is sustainable, and has its own share of problems (France has a bad immigrant integration track record; admittedly, they have a much higher influx from Algiers Co than Germany has). while these solutions are expensive, often for the taxpayer, the alternative, of a greying society supported by a shrinking working-age population, is much more expensive. maybe reproduction is overrated? immigration would be by far cheaper and more sustainable on a global scale. Immigration is completely unsustainable. The developing countries will be much harder hit by the birth rate reduction, because they'll be experiencing the same effects as the old west at least one order of magnitude quicker. Very rapid changes in birth rate will create a hugely displaced demographics, with much more severe problems than the old west is currently facing. -- Eugen* Leitl a href=http://leitl.org;leitl/a http://leitl.org __ ICBM: 48.07100, 11.36820 http://www.ativel.com http://postbiota.org 8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A 7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE
Re: [silk] Fwd: [jivika] Fwd: [indiathinkersnet] Bangalore: The risingdivorce rate in the IT sector
On Aug 8 2007, Eugen Leitl wrote: maybe reproduction is overrated? immigration would be by far cheaper and more sustainable on a global scale. Immigration is completely unsustainable. The developing countries will be much harder hit by the birth rate reduction, because they'll be experiencing the same effects as the old west at least one order of magnitude quicker. Very rapid changes in birth rate will create a hugely displaced demographics, with much more severe problems than the old west is currently facing. don't quite understand that. countries like india or brazil have a reproduction rate higher than sustainable for these countries. whereas in europe half the population will soon be older than 60, in india more than half of the population will be younger than 20. so why not let more people immigrate to the old, grey west? i am of course aware that this might cause changes in both societies. but changes of some sort will be unavoidable anyway. --bernhard
Re: [silk] Fwd: [jivika] Fwd: [indiathinkersnet] Bangalore: The risingdivorce rate in the IT sector
On Wed, Aug 08, 2007 at 10:36:06AM +0100, B. L. Krieger wrote: don't quite understand that. countries like india or brazil have a reproduction rate higher than sustainable for these countries. whereas in For time being (are you sure about Brazil?). http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sub-replacement_fertility Elsewhere the birth rate is plummeting fast. While still above replacement (some 2.1...2.3 children/couple), the key is the rapidity of the change. europe half the population will soon be older than 60, in india more than half of the population will be younger than 20. so why not let more people immigrate to the old, grey west? i am of course aware that this might cause The old grey west would just love it. But it would be an ill service to the countries, because the birth rate *will* plummet. Long-term, the birth rate will pick up again, because there are subpopulations with a very high fertility, though the total is stagnating. So below-replacement fertility is likely a transient phase. changes in both societies. but changes of some sort will be unavoidable anyway. -- Eugen* Leitl a href=http://leitl.org;leitl/a http://leitl.org __ ICBM: 48.07100, 11.36820 http://www.ativel.com http://postbiota.org 8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A 7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE
Re: [silk] Fwd: [jivika] Fwd: [indiathinkersnet] Bangalore: The risingdivorce rate in the IT sector
On Aug 8 2007, Eugen Leitl wrote: For time being (are you sure about Brazil?). thought that i have read that somewhere though the cia factbook states 1.88 for brazil. https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/rankorder/2127rank.html http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sub-replacement_fertility interesting link indeed. Elsewhere the birth rate is plummeting fast. While still above replacement (some 2.1...2.3 children/couple), the key is the rapidity of the change. true, but still till these effects stop worldwide population growth new factors will arise (continous age increase, alternative methods of reproduction, etc.). policies would best aim for a slowing down of the human world population. if at some point we end up having 'only' five billion people living around here it would not be that bad after all. also we might find ouselves still contributing to the world economy at the age of 80.
Re: [silk] Fwd: [jivika] Fwd: [indiathinkersnet] Bangalore: The risingdivorce rate in the IT sector
On Wed, Aug 08, 2007 at 12:13:16PM +0100, B. L. Krieger wrote: the key is the rapidity of the change. true, but still till these effects stop worldwide population growth new factors will arise (continous age increase, alternative methods of It is not obvious SENS is going to work. It is also questionable that primate biology can keep a person a century in the workplace. Already 50-year olds are virtually unemployable in the modern economy, while the official retirement age has been bumped up to 67 years. It will be 70 soon, so how do you feed a large fraction of your populace clothed, fed, and in good health? The health cost explosion is not sustainable. Socities are already cutting corners in health care, and soon this will become massive. The result is a two-tier society, with a minimal level of health care (somewhat below of that today) and virtually unlimited health care for Richistan citizens. reproduction, etc.). policies would best aim for a slowing down of the human world population. if at some point we end up having 'only' five Slowing down is good. Just not within 20-30 years. That will make most of the developing world run into terrible problems, if you imagine a pyramid suddenly collapsing to a christmas tree, and moving upwards. billion people living around here it would not be that bad after all. also we might find ouselves still contributing to the world economy at the age of 80. How? I'm 41, in good health, taking health supplements, and in IT that's dinosaur age. Should I lose my current job I will have trouble finding another, especially one I can feed my family with. How young people today are supposed to finance a house and build a family when starting from scratch is beyond me. For most it will remain a dream. -- Eugen* Leitl a href=http://leitl.org;leitl/a http://leitl.org __ ICBM: 48.07100, 11.36820 http://www.ativel.com http://postbiota.org 8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A 7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE
Re: [silk] Fwd: [jivika] Fwd: [indiathinkersnet] Bangalore: The risingdivorce rate in the IT sector
Bernhard, on a light note upon being told of the Austrian right wing politician Haider, whose slogan was Kinder nicht Inder referring to the need for Kids not Indians, I responded that on the contrary it should be Inder then definitely Kinder! I was joking...immigration from INdia with a large population may not adversely affected the country of origin but immigration from a country like Ethiopia with a smaller population might be bad for them. Venezuela is a really good example-huge brain drain of professionals and in a country of only 20 million that is a problem. Their birth rate is average but then again it is the poor who have more children. Eugen's point about how people in IT are going to manage to keep their jobs and finance their dreams is interesting. Is the scale of the dream something to consider? 08 Aug 2007 09:47:36 +0100, B. L. Krieger [EMAIL PROTECTED]: On Aug 7 2007, Rishab Aiyer Ghosh wrote: note that the highest birthrates in europe are in societies where opportunities for women have been matched by their social treatment, such as scandinavia and to some extent france (where state or employer childcare is of a relatively high standard). in some of these countries, native population birthrates are at almost replacement levels. (though births - and upbringing of children - are often outside marriage). i guess you are right here. france for instance made a deliberate choice after the second world war to recruit women to the labout force, whereas germany decided for an immigration policy. however whether there is a correlation is not too sure imho. the uk has reproduction rate comparable to france without an expensive childcare policy. while these solutions are expensive, often for the taxpayer, the alternative, of a greying society supported by a shrinking working-age population, is much more expensive. maybe reproduction is overrated? immigration would be by far cheaper and more sustainable on a global scale. --bernhard
Re: [silk] Fwd: [jivika] Fwd: [indiathinkersnet] Bangalore: The risingdivorce rate in the IT sector
On Wed, Aug 08, 2007 at 07:24:53AM -0700, Radhika, Y. wrote: Bernhard, on a light note upon being told of the Austrian right wing politician Haider, whose slogan was Kinder nicht Inder referring to the need That slogan is still very much alive in Germany. There's a considerable misconception hereabouts about capabilities of immigrant experts, and the attractivity of e.g. Germany especially for top talent. Germany is becoming a low-wage country (at least relatively to its EU neighbours). for Kids not Indians, I responded that on the contrary it should be Inder then definitely Kinder! I was joking...immigration from INdia with a large population may not adversely affected the country of origin but immigration Do not underestimate the importance of high-sigma folks for overall productivity. Brain drain in Germany has been considerable for a couple of decades. from a country like Ethiopia with a smaller population might be bad for them. Venezuela is a really good example-huge brain drain of professionals and in a country of only 20 million that is a problem. Their birth rate is average but then again it is the poor who have more children. Eugen's point about how people in IT are going to manage to keep their jobs It's not just the IT. and finance their dreams is interesting. Is the scale of the dream something I never thought that being able to afford children is financing a dream. It's been pretty tough for my generation, but for a low-income young professional it's arguably impossible, especially if single-parent. Social support networks have largely gone away. to consider? I'm 41 years old, and have a 9-month old kid. My wife is currently working part time. We're lucky to have the in-laws next door, so we do have some hours off, and we're paying almost no rent. We're hardly breaking even, with one young child. We'd like to have another, but not on this salary. I can't imagine how a hair-cutter, or a business clerk manage. If single-parent, they exist below the poverty line. -- Eugen* Leitl a href=http://leitl.org;leitl/a http://leitl.org __ ICBM: 48.07100, 11.36820 http://www.ativel.com http://postbiota.org 8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A 7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE
Re: [silk] Fwd: [jivika] Fwd: [indiathinkersnet] Bangalore: The risingdivorce rate in the IT sector
On Mon, 2007-08-06 at 09:09 +0530, shiv sastry wrote: But, as Eugen has pointed out, birth rates have fallen in such societies for various reasons. I am guessing that birth rates will fall among the subset of Indians who belong to the IT sector but continue to remain high among others. note that the highest birthrates in europe are in societies where opportunities for women have been matched by their social treatment, such as scandinavia and to some extent france (where state or employer childcare is of a relatively high standard). in some of these countries, native population birthrates are at almost replacement levels. (though births - and upbringing of children - are often outside marriage). low birthrates are common in societies where opportunities for women have improved (somewhat) but not (enough) their social treatment, such as germany or family-values spain and italy (which has europe's lowest birth rate). this applies globally - japan, with women needing to (and able to, sort of) have jobs but expected to mother their husbands and do everything at home, has one of the lowest birthrates in the world. the economist had a cover last week on policies to improve birthrates, which essentially favoured the scandinavian (or french) model of ensuring the availability of childcare and other measures to ensure that children get looked after without women having to bear a disproportionate share of the burden of doing so (e.g. norway has an extremely generous paid maternity leave, but also an extended mandatory paternity leave). while these solutions are expensive, often for the taxpayer, the alternative, of a greying society supported by a shrinking working-age population, is much more expensive. india is far away from this, partly due to the lack of success of family planning relative to china's mandatory policies, india will be a young country well into the next century while china turns grey. -rishab
Re: [silk] Fwd: [jivika] Fwd: [indiathinkersnet] Bangalore: The risingdivorce rate in the IT sector
2007/8/5, shiv sastry [EMAIL PROTECTED]: On Monday 06 Aug 2007 2:06 am, Radhika, Y. wrote: We Indians are highly goal focused rather than process oreinted-I suspect that old fashioned contempt for dating also has to do with intolerance for ambiguity and low risk tolerance ather than mere morality Control of male and female sexuality is important for the preservation of family wealth. When wealth becomes relatively assured, such control of sexuality becomes redundant. But, as Eugen has pointed out, birth rates have fallen in such societies for various reasons. I am guessing that birth rates will fall among the subset of Indians who belong to the IT sector but continue to remain high among others. In other words, the IT sector is likely to become synonymous with long hours, high salary, no family - unless something changes. shiv
Re: [silk] Fwd: [jivika] Fwd: [indiathinkersnet] Bangalore: The risingdivorce rate in the IT sector
I agree that ensuring family wealth is a big factor in societies keeping . And here I am speculating but I see the mergence of both a narrowing and a broadening of the term family. Being outside the IT world but having spent many an afternoon eavesdropping on IT professionals on Brigade Road while living in Bangalore in 2005, I observed that on the one hand there is the large IT family, where many people understand the stresses as well as the opportunities so within the peer group it is acceptabe to have an out such as divorce or a midlife crisis. At the same time, the family has come to mean a smaller and smaller unit, until it is down to the individual. This is not to say that marriage is not an institution worth preserving. in the old days, a marriage might have been the merging of two identities, but to day it is more like a Venn diagram representing intersection! All of this is only serving to make me nostalgic for the great 70s film, Kramer vs. Kramer... 2007/8/5, Radhika, Y. [EMAIL PROTECTED]: 2007/8/5, shiv sastry [EMAIL PROTECTED]: On Monday 06 Aug 2007 2:06 am, Radhika, Y. wrote: We Indians are highly goal focused rather than process oreinted-I suspect that old fashioned contempt for dating also has to do with intolerance for ambiguity and low risk tolerance ather than mere morality Control of male and female sexuality is important for the preservation of family wealth. When wealth becomes relatively assured, such control of sexuality becomes redundant. But, as Eugen has pointed out, birth rates have fallen in such societies for various reasons. I am guessing that birth rates will fall among the subset of Indians who belong to the IT sector but continue to remain high among others. In other words, the IT sector is likely to become synonymous with long hours, high salary, no family - unless something changes. shiv
Re: [silk] Fwd: [jivika] Fwd: [indiathinkersnet] Bangalore: The risingdivorce rate in the IT sector
On 8/6/2007 8:32 AM, shiv sastry wrote: Homer goes to India http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U_P_BpGncKQ shiv Whooops - sorry wrong cartoon This one http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k9_iQim8Mtw Kiss Kiss Bang Bangalore. yup .. good one that.
