Re: [silk] My thoughts on old age
I think I will savour this message, read it several times, and then respond. Happy Deepavali to you, too, my very dearyou are right, why hang labels on you? I count myself very fortunate to know you and I do learn a lot from you. On Tue, Nov 6, 2018 at 10:39 AM Srini RamaKrishnan wrote: > Dear Deepa, > > I am young enough to be your son, so I cannot speak on old age, but I can > speak a little on vulnerability. > > I know a little of - what it is to experience a chronic illness, be the > sole care taker for old and infirm family members, experience a rapid > deceleration in income and physical freedom among other things. > > When life changes under us our life understanding requires modification. > > We have all been utterly vulnerable as babies, dependent on others for > nearly everything - but there's not a single case of mental trauma from > being born vulnerable, babies have the most blissful smiles when their > basic needs are met. So we all know how to be vulnerable and yet blissful > in our core, needing only the most basic things. It's the layers of cruft > that we add on during the process of living that causes any suffering. > > Thanks to technology and innovation at least some people today have some > kind of pension or passive income to keep them financially stable in old > age, and there are advanced medical interventions for when diseases > threaten life. > > This wasn't always the case, and so, for this we must be thankful, old age > isn't as daunting as it once was. > > The inner experience of old age is then what I find threatens next - to be > robbed of the sense pleasures for one. When the hearing isn't good enough > for music or conversation, when the digestive system cannot tolerate one's > favorite foods, when the eyes want to remain closed longer than they want > to be open, when the brain is no longer sharp enough to enjoy sense inputs > etc. Of course this doesn't happen all at once, or at all for some - but > for many if they live into their 80s, this is what life becomes. > > Losing a life purpose is another - it's rather hard to keep chewing on the > sugarcane when one doesn't know what more one can extract from it. Rather > than have bleeding gums we stop chewing on the sugarcane - as in the case > of your relative. Though some people may face this dilemma even on > retirement from a career or bereavement. > > If I may rephrase your question "When does old age begin?" as "when does > vulnerability and change begin?", then, was there ever a time when it > wasn't so? > > To begin with the obvious, we are living on a piece of rock spinning and > hurtling through space at an astonishing pace. We simply tune out the chaos > and uncertainty of it, and imagine a life on our terms. Life is never on > anyone's terms - ever - it's merely a dance - we don't set the tune, but > we can learn to move gracefully with the music. There's always music, even > in what may sound like cacophony - we only need to learn to move with it. > Old age is just a new tempo to the tune. > > We must prepare for being vulnerable even if we are confident in our plans > to secure the future. Not just in old age, but at any moment our life > circumstances can be altered totally. > > If we can enjoy life only as long as things are under our control, we are > usually in for trouble. We do significantly better if we hold life loose, > not being attached to or identified with any job or passion or interest or > person or health or wealth such that its disappearance wouldn't threaten. > > An individual identity is a bit like adding salt to food, a little goes a > long way. Too much investment in a limited identity or preference will > diminish life and dull intelligence. If our whole life is spent in > acquiring labels - identities of father, son, boss, rich man, public > intellectual, sports person etc. then when the labels are taken away > there's often great suffering. > > This is what the wisdom teachings of this culture say, seek self > realization - find who we are beyond the labels, beyond the limited > identities. > > Happy Deepavali! >
Re: [silk] My thoughts on old age
Dear Deepa, I am young enough to be your son, so I cannot speak on old age, but I can speak a little on vulnerability. I know a little of - what it is to experience a chronic illness, be the sole care taker for old and infirm family members, experience a rapid deceleration in income and physical freedom among other things. When life changes under us our life understanding requires modification. We have all been utterly vulnerable as babies, dependent on others for nearly everything - but there's not a single case of mental trauma from being born vulnerable, babies have the most blissful smiles when their basic needs are met. So we all know how to be vulnerable and yet blissful in our core, needing only the most basic things. It's the layers of cruft that we add on during the process of living that causes any suffering. Thanks to technology and innovation at least some people today have some kind of pension or passive income to keep them financially stable in old age, and there are advanced medical interventions for when diseases threaten life. This wasn't always the case, and so, for this we must be thankful, old age isn't as daunting as it once was. The inner experience of old age is then what I find threatens next - to be robbed of the sense pleasures for one. When the hearing isn't good enough for music or conversation, when the digestive system cannot tolerate one's favorite foods, when the eyes want to remain closed longer than they want to be open, when the brain is no longer sharp enough to enjoy sense inputs etc. Of course this doesn't happen all at once, or at all for some - but for many if they live into their 80s, this is what life becomes. Losing a life purpose is another - it's rather hard to keep chewing on the sugarcane when one doesn't know what more one can extract from it. Rather than have bleeding gums we stop chewing on the sugarcane - as in the case of your relative. Though some people may face this dilemma even on retirement from a career or bereavement. If I may rephrase your question "When does old age begin?" as "when does vulnerability and change begin?", then, was there ever a time when it wasn't so? To begin with the obvious, we are living on a piece of rock spinning and hurtling through space at an astonishing pace. We simply tune out the chaos and uncertainty of it, and imagine a life on our terms. Life is never on anyone's terms - ever - it's merely a dance - we don't set the tune, but we can learn to move gracefully with the music. There's always music, even in what may sound like cacophony - we only need to learn to move with it. Old age is just a new tempo to the tune. We must prepare for being vulnerable even if we are confident in our plans to secure the future. Not just in old age, but at any moment our life circumstances can be altered totally. If we can enjoy life only as long as things are under our control, we are usually in for trouble. We do significantly better if we hold life loose, not being attached to or identified with any job or passion or interest or person or health or wealth such that its disappearance wouldn't threaten. An individual identity is a bit like adding salt to food, a little goes a long way. Too much investment in a limited identity or preference will diminish life and dull intelligence. If our whole life is spent in acquiring labels - identities of father, son, boss, rich man, public intellectual, sports person etc. then when the labels are taken away there's often great suffering. This is what the wisdom teachings of this culture say, seek self realization - find who we are beyond the labels, beyond the limited identities. Happy Deepavali!
Re: [silk] My thoughts on old age
In related news, just a couple of days I wrote a blog considering whether I should retire or not: https://www.tbray.org/ongoing/When/201x/2018/10/25/On-Retirement On Sat, Oct 27, 2018 at 9:40 AM Deepa Mohan wrote: > Enjoyed every word of your response. No need to apologize! > > On Sat, Oct 27, 2018 at 9:23 PM > > > > > > -- Charles > > > > On November 17, assuming I make it 'til then, I'll turn 66. > > > > > So that was > > how I became a firefighter at age 55 > > With apologies for the length of this ramble, > > > > jrs > > > > > -- - Tim Bray (If you’d like to send me a private message, see https://keybase.io/timbray)
Re: [silk] My thoughts on old age
Enjoyed every word of your response. No need to apologize! On Sat, Oct 27, 2018 at 9:23 PM > > > -- Charles > > On November 17, assuming I make it 'til then, I'll turn 66. > So that was > how I became a firefighter at age 55 With apologies for the length of this ramble, > > jrs > >
Re: [silk] My thoughts on old age
On 2018-10-27 09:59, Charles Haynes wrote: On Wed., 24 Oct. 2018, 10:48 pm Bruce A. Metcalf, wrote: On 10/24/2018 09:45 PM, Deepa Mohan wrote: > I wonder how many people on this list are in their sixties? Well, me for one, and I've been considering the thoughts posted to this thread with some care. Me too, but I haven't seen Deepa's mail so while I'd love to contribute I'm afraid of missing context. -- Charles On November 17, assuming I make it 'til then, I'll turn 66. As a novelist, I feel like I'm just hitting my stride (I've written 2 novellas & 1.5 novels; next novel coming Real Soon Now). I published my first novel when I was 47, which is pretty late as far as first novels go, but certainly not all that unusual. As a teenager I was a volunteer firefighter in the rural/suburbanizing town in New Jersey where I grew up. Things were very informal in those days. I started going to fires when I was about 10 because my father was a firefighter & I tagged along with him. The only rule was "don't get in the way." I always figured that I would be a volunteer firefighter, like my father & my uncle Harry. So when I was 30, living in Gardner, MA, a small city with a mixed professional/volunteer department, I went to the nearest station to sign up. I was told I was too old to join. On July 4th, 2008, a very hot Independence Day, the local fire departments put out a very nasty fire on Main Street in Vineyard Haven -- it could easily have burned down half the town, but only 1 building was lost. So like lots of townsfolk, my wife & I brought food to the firehouse so the firefighters could have a Fourth of July cookout like everybody else. I happened to speak to the chief, & told him I wish I could do more to help. He asked me why I hadn't joined. When I told him I assumed I was too old he laughed & gave me an application. So that was how I became a firefighter at age 55. I did the whole training thing, hundreds of hours' worth, including a bunch of live-fire courses at the Massachusetts Firefighting Academy. Most firefighters that age take supervisory roles, or do things like run the fire engines during a fire. But I liked doing active fire suppression stuff, going into buildings on fire, wearing the air pack, that kind of stuff. I was aware that if I were to have a heart attack or even if I simply got tired, I would be a hazard to my fellow firefighters. So that was a great motivator for me to get into shape. I had worked out with weights in my 30's & 40's, but over the last 10 years I've gotten much more serious about it. I retired as a firefighter when I turned 65 (as required by Massachusetts state law), but I still workout at the firehouse weight room 4 or 5 nights/week & ride my bike about 1,000 miles/year. I expect that becoming a firefighter added years to my life simply by motivating me to get & stay in shape. It's harder to maintain muscle at this age, but I've found that with regular strenuous exercise it can be done. I'm weaker than my younger self, but only by about 20%. My main frustration is how much slower I am now compared to decades ago. Take surfing for example. The biggest waves I can surf now are much smaller that what I rode in my 20's. It takes a few seconds for me to get to my feet. That's too slow for an 8-foot wave, oh well. I'm probably thinking slower too, but that's harder to judge. With apologies for the length of this ramble, jrs
Re: [silk] My thoughts on old age
On Wed., 24 Oct. 2018, 10:48 pm Bruce A. Metcalf, wrote: > On 10/24/2018 09:45 PM, Deepa Mohan wrote: > > > I wonder how many people on this list are in their sixties? > > Well, me for one, and I've been considering the thoughts posted to this > thread with some care. > Me too, but I haven't seen Deepa's mail so while I'd love to contribute I'm afraid of missing context. -- Charles
Re: [silk] My thoughts on old age
Good wishes have no time-bound expiry and birthday wishes are for the future! Thank you, Ingrid. On Thu, Oct 25, 2018 at 9:27 AM Ingrid Srinath wrote: > > > > On 25 Oct 2018, at 07:15, Deepa Mohan wrote: > > > > Obviously, the musing went on longer than the blogpost: > > > > https://deponti.livejournal.com/1215542.html > > > > I wonder how many people on this list are in their sixties? > > > > Deepa. > > Belated birthday greetings, Deepa. > >
Re: [silk] My thoughts on old age
> On 25 Oct 2018, at 07:15, Deepa Mohan wrote: > > Obviously, the musing went on longer than the blogpost: > > https://deponti.livejournal.com/1215542.html > > I wonder how many people on this list are in their sixties? > > Deepa. Belated birthday greetings, Deepa.
Re: [silk] My thoughts on old age
My Uncle, since deceased in his nineties of an accidental fall in a parking lot, said “If you’re much past 60, and you wake up and nothing’s hurting, that means you’re dead.” True, but I'm okay with some aches & pains for now. On Wed., Oct. 24, 2018, 6:46 p.m. Deepa Mohan Obviously, the musing went on longer than the blogpost: > > https://deponti.livejournal.com/1215542.html > > I wonder how many people on this list are in their sixties? > > Deepa. >
Re: [silk] My thoughts on old age
On 10/24/2018 09:45 PM, Deepa Mohan wrote: I wonder how many people on this list are in their sixties? Well, me for one, and I've been considering the thoughts posted to this thread with some care. I don't yet consider myself old. I'm reasonably fit, able to take care of myself, drive (though my nighttime depth perception has become suspect), and don't have any chronic maladies other than the allergies I've had since near birth. However, my wife, though less than a year older, is becoming elderly. One hip replaced, the other on its way, arthritis in her spine, and most recently a torn rotator cuff that's playing hell with her curveball. She needs a wheelchair to travel any great distance, often a cane, and I've had to take over everything from grocery shopping to folding laundry. Add in her osteoporosis, and she's now afraid to be left alone for more than a few hours for fear of falling. This isn't to say she's slowing down much. She's plans for us to dine out more than half the evenings, and she's decided she wants to cruise and see as much of the world as she can while she can. Being from the US, where wheelchair ramps and special lifts are not just normal, but required by law, she hasn't been as able as she had hoped at seeing some of that world. When she is, she obliges me to follow along and push. The result is that while still fit (wheelchair pushing is apparently good exercise), my activities are being constrained to those she is able to enjoy. The resulting limits on my activity are thus equal to hers, and I find myself being quite frustrated by limits not my own. Sure, I signed up 44 years back "for better or worse", so I'm not complaining (out loud), but it is frustrating to be denied activities due to age and infirmity other than my own. I'm under no apprehension that I'll fail to follow her down this road. Indeed I may be placed on it suddenly. But it has given me a view of how those both disabled and shut-in may feel that their world is shrinking, even without the passing of old(er) friends. Perhaps this would be easier to take if I sensed that my mind or body were beginning to shut down. My family seems to have had good genes for longevity, with several in recent generations reaching 100 and the majority reaching 90, so I plan as if I've another 30 years to go. I'll have to wait and see how many more good years I have, as well as how many my wife can enjoy before infirmity puts her permanently in a bed (and care facility). There was an age when I attended lots of weddings. Being childless, we skipped the baby parties and all that. Today we're attending ever more funerals. A natural progression, but one that has the salutary effect of imposing thoughts of our own mortality, and what sufferings may come before death. No answers here, just some ponderings of a man not yet ready to call himself old. Cheers, / Bruce /
Re: [silk] My thoughts on old age...what it is, and when it begins
Deepa Mohan wrote on 10/23/18 8:34 PM October 23, 2018: https://deponti.livejournal.com/1215542.html Fascinating. Before we get into this any deeper, I want to invite you all to dance at my 130th birthday party, which will be held in 2091. I note cultural, as well as generational, differences here. My grandparents lived into their 80s and 90s. One great-grandmother lived to be 105. One of my great-aunts is still going strong at 101. When my dad died of brain cancer at age 67, no one considered him old. I don't consider my mom to be old, although she turned 80 this year, and she is only starting to consider the possibility that she might soon become elderly. I lost some dear friends in the past few years at the ages of 108 and 99. I am blessed to have many examples of people living active, vibrant lives into their 10th and 11th decades. I have this image in my mind of my friend Ian climbing up into a full dumpster and gleefully stomping down the contents at age 97. Many much younger people would consider themselves too old for such an activity, but not Ian. The oldest people I have known have been active, optimistic, and busily working on various projects. They are interested in life, and actively engaged in making the world a better place. They are more focused on their near futures than their distant pasts. Researcher Dr. Miriam Nelson showed that strength training can prevent and even reverse many of the ills we associate with old age (brittle bones, loss of strength, mobility issues, spinal problems). Weight training can help us live independently longer, something that is definitely associated with quality of life. I personally believe that it's important to keep working at something as we age. Resting on our laurels is deadly; we need to keep learning and striving to keep our minds and bodies sharp. I often think about facing ill health, diminishment, and death with grace and good humor. I've seen some great examples of this, and been deeply impressed with the obstacles they managed to overcome by focusing on what they could do instead of merely bemoaning their fates. Two women I know were talking about what keeps married couples together over the decades. "Luck," said the woman who has been married for 51 years. "Hard work," said the one who has been married 42 years. When they asked me, married a mere 34 years, I said "sheer stubbornness." -- Heather Madrone (heat...@madrone.com) http://www.knitfitter.com/category/personal/ Nothing worth doing is ever easy.
