Re: [silk] outdated words in Indian English
I think racism came to be recognized as unacceptable as a matter of law only after WW II. The human rights convention - UDHR, ICCPR, ICESCR - helped as did the judgments from the Nuremberg/Far East tribunal. Prior to that it wasn't uncommon to find discriminatory language in legal text thereby institutionalizing discrimination. Not surprised that anyone raised in that environment would have some biases, regardless of how egalitarian their views may otherwise have been. Sent from BlackBerry® on Airtel -Original Message- From: ss cybers...@gmail.com Sender: silklist-bounces+nikhil.mehra773=gmail@lists.hserus.net Date: Sat, 21 Jul 2012 19:02:34 To: silklist@lists.hserus.net Reply-To: silklist@lists.hserus.net Subject: Re: [silk] outdated words in Indian English On Saturday 21 Jul 2012 11:29:15 am Charles Haynes wrote: The fact that Gandhi described Africans as having no ambition and as hunter gatherers lends credence to the idea that he also held racist notions. I am certain that this is an accurate assessment. But he was essentially British in character at that time - and he was 24 years old. Looks like he gradualy changed his views when he came to India and found himself. The education is important and Gandhi and Nehru were Westernized Oriental Gentlemen - or WOGs in oher words. They were equal but discovered that they were inferior. Not sure if Gollywog derives from the term WOG. As a little boy in the early 60s I enjoyed Enid Blyton's Noddy books which featured a Gollywog - and Blyton is the highest selling author of all time. 700 million books. Imagine the number of people who never saw Gollywog as racist. shiv
Re: [silk] outdated words in Indian English
On Saturday 21 Jul 2012 7:07:45 pm Nikhil Mehra wrote: I think racism came to be recognized as unacceptable as a matter of law only after WW II. Probably. Europe, the dominant continent before WW2 were in search of some ancient history and Germany found that in the form of Aryan and stuck a finger up the backside of the rest of Europe. The first Indian to emigrate to the US as per Wiki was a Bengali http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A.K._Mozumdar In 1913 Mozumdar became the first Indian-born person to earn U.S. citizenship, having convinced the Spokane district judge that he was in fact Caucasian and thereby met the requirements of naturalization law then restricting citizenship to free white persons. Ten years later a Punjabi was refused immigration on the following grounds http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_v._Bhagat_Singh_Thind The eligibility of this applicant for citizenship is based on the sole fact that he is of high caste Hindu stock, born in Punjab [Amrit Sar], one of the extreme northwestern districts of India, and classified by many scientific authorities as of the Caucasian or Aryan race...In the Punjab and Rajputana [Rajasthan], while the invaders seem to have met with more success in the effort to preserve their racial purity, intermarriages did occur producing an intermingling of the two and destroying to a greater or less degree the purity of the “Aryan” blood. The rules of caste, while calculated to prevent this intermixture, seem not to have been entirely successful... the given group [Asian Indian] cannot be properly assigned to any of the enumerated grand racial divisions. The type may have been so changed by intermixture of blood as to justify an intermediate classification. Something very like this has actually taken place in India. Thus, in Hindustan [India] and Berar [town in India] there was such an intermixture of the “Aryan” invader with the dark-skinned Dravidian It is ironic that the Bengali got in and the Punjabi was turned down because a few decades later the Muslims among the two ethnic groups (Bengali and Punjabi) were clubbed together in one country united by Islam as West Pakistanis and East Pakistanis. Benazir Bhutto once said that she had been taught in school that West Pakistans were tall, had white skin and ate wheat. East Pakistanis were short, had a dark complexion and ate rice. Of course the original Gunga Din of Kipling was from the Indian northwest - which included Indian and Pakistani Punjab and the North West Frontier Province, whence the Taliban come from. But after the Indian army revolt of 1857 the British army made it a point to recruit the relatvely apolitical north-western Indian and were suspicious of the politicking Bengalee. The former were praised as martial races who were immune to syphilis among other valuable traits. This mythical trait, I am told, was internalized by the Pakistan army. LOL shiv
Re: [silk] outdated words in Indian English
Internalised. Hmmm. Sent from my iPad On Jul 21, 2012, at 7:37 PM, ss cybers...@gmail.com wrote: On Saturday 21 Jul 2012 7:07:45 pm Nikhil Mehra wrote: I think racism came to be recognized as unacceptable as a matter of law only after WW II. Probably. Europe, the dominant continent before WW2 were in search of some ancient history and Germany found that in the form of Aryan and stuck a finger up the backside of the rest of Europe. The first Indian to emigrate to the US as per Wiki was a Bengali http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A.K._Mozumdar In 1913 Mozumdar became the first Indian-born person to earn U.S. citizenship, having convinced the Spokane district judge that he was in fact Caucasian and thereby met the requirements of naturalization law then restricting citizenship to free white persons. Ten years later a Punjabi was refused immigration on the following grounds http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_v._Bhagat_Singh_Thind The eligibility of this applicant for citizenship is based on the sole fact that he is of high caste Hindu stock, born in Punjab [Amrit Sar], one of the extreme northwestern districts of India, and classified by many scientific authorities as of the Caucasian or Aryan race...In the Punjab and Rajputana [Rajasthan], while the invaders seem to have met with more success in the effort to preserve their racial purity, intermarriages did occur producing an intermingling of the two and destroying to a greater or less degree the purity of the “Aryan” blood. The rules of caste, while calculated to prevent this intermixture, seem not to have been entirely successful... the given group [Asian Indian] cannot be properly assigned to any of the enumerated grand racial divisions. The type may have been so changed by intermixture of blood as to justify an intermediate classification. Something very like this has actually taken place in India. Thus, in Hindustan [India] and Berar [town in India] there was such an intermixture of the “Aryan” invader with the dark-skinned Dravidian It is ironic that the Bengali got in and the Punjabi was turned down because a few decades later the Muslims among the two ethnic groups (Bengali and Punjabi) were clubbed together in one country united by Islam as West Pakistanis and East Pakistanis. Benazir Bhutto once said that she had been taught in school that West Pakistans were tall, had white skin and ate wheat. East Pakistanis were short, had a dark complexion and ate rice. Of course the original Gunga Din of Kipling was from the Indian northwest - which included Indian and Pakistani Punjab and the North West Frontier Province, whence the Taliban come from. But after the Indian army revolt of 1857 the British army made it a point to recruit the relatvely apolitical north-western Indian and were suspicious of the politicking Bengalee. The former were praised as martial races who were immune to syphilis among other valuable traits. This mythical trait, I am told, was internalized by the Pakistan army. LOL shiv
Re: [silk] outdated words in Indian English
I wonder what he meant by the raw kaffir. Sent from my iPad On Jul 15, 2012, at 2:03 AM, Venky ve...@duh-uh.com wrote: On Saturday 14 July 2012 at 6:38 AM, Srini RamaKrishnan wrote: Kipling is Gandhi's contemporary, funny how they came to rather different conclusions about the fate of the races. With quotes likes these, I don't know if I buy the theory of Gandhi being a champion of racial equality: “A general belief seems to prevail in the colony that the Indians are little better, if at all, than the savages or natives of Africa. Even the children are taught to believe in that manner, with the result that the Indian is being dragged down to the position of a raw Kaffir.” “Ours is one continued struggle against degradation sought to be inflicted upon us by the European, who desire to degrade us to the level of the raw Kaffir, whose occupation is hunting and whose sole ambition is to collect a certain number of cattle to buy a wife with, and then pass his life in indolence and nakedness.” Venky (the Second).
Re: [silk] outdated words in Indian English
On Jul 20, 2012 11:25 PM, Bonobashi bonoba...@yahoo.co.in wrote: I wonder what he meant by the raw kaffir. “A general belief seems to prevail in the colony that the Indians are little better, if at all, than the savages or natives of Africa. Even the children are taught to believe in that manner, with the result that the Indian is being dragged down to the position of a raw Kaffir.” “Ours is one continued struggle against degradation sought to be inflicted upon us by the European, who desire to degrade us to the level of the raw Kaffir, whose occupation is hunting and whose sole ambition is to collect a certain number of cattle to buy a wife with, and then pass his life in indolence and nakedness.” Being in South Africa, as Gandhi was earlier in his career, I can hazard a guess. Kaffir was the standard (now very derogatory - equivalent of nigger) term used for native Africans in South Africa. The common conceit was that they were an inherently inferior race, little better than hunter gatherers. Kaffir being a corruption of the Arabic for non-believer it was a term often used for slaves and potential slaves. The fact that Gandhi described Africans as having no ambition and as hunter gatherers lends credence to the idea that he also held racist notions. -- Charles
Re: [silk] outdated words in Indian English
On 14 July 2012 11:19, Bonobashi bonoba...@yahoo.co.in wrote: You've just proved You Know Who right. So Shiv is Voldemort, now?
Re: [silk] outdated words in Indian English
On Fri, Jul 13, 2012 at 11:13:19PM +0530, Deepak Shenoy wrote: Strangely I've gotten involved in corp life recently (consulting contract) and it seems like formal conversations are even more shady, with terms like PFA and FYI and top posting and truncated sentences, Top-posting is due to brain damage of corporate mail clients. I also never snip the email tail when participating in a long back-and-forth email to retain as much context as possible. and I'm speaking of bankers here, a species that takes a long time to evolve...
Re: [silk] outdated words in Indian English
On Saturday 14 July 2012 at 6:38 AM, Srini RamaKrishnan wrote: Kipling is Gandhi's contemporary, funny how they came to rather different conclusions about the fate of the races. With quotes likes these, I don't know if I buy the theory of Gandhi being a champion of racial equality: “A general belief seems to prevail in the colony that the Indians are little better, if at all, than the savages or natives of Africa. Even the children are taught to believe in that manner, with the result that the Indian is being dragged down to the position of a raw Kaffir.” “Ours is one continued struggle against degradation sought to be inflicted upon us by the European, who desire to degrade us to the level of the raw Kaffir, whose occupation is hunting and whose sole ambition is to collect a certain number of cattle to buy a wife with, and then pass his life in indolence and nakedness.” Venky (the Second).
Re: [silk] outdated words in Indian English
On Fri, Jul 13, 2012 at 7:12 PM, Eugen Leitl eu...@leitl.org wrote: So I was going through this link. While I know that 'do the needful' and 'revert back' are wrong usages even though it's common here Do the needful - is it incorrect usage? I mean, really?
Re: [silk] outdated words in Indian English
On Fri, Jul 13, 2012 at 3:42 PM, Eugen Leitl eu...@leitl.org wrote: So I was going through this link. While I know that 'do the needful' and 'revert back' are wrong usages even though it's common here, I was surprised that a lot of other words are considered antiquated too. Could you 'do the needful' and let me know if these words/phrases are indeed not used elsewhere Am I the only one who groaned like I could hear nails scratching on a chalkboard? I quickly scrolled down to the bottom needing no more of that. I am perplexed at my strong negative reaction and snobbery, language isn't really anything more than a vehicle to convey ideas at the end of the day. Gosh, when did I become so posh?
Re: [silk] outdated words in Indian English
On Fri, Jul 13, 2012 at 6:42 AM, Eugen Leitl eu...@leitl.org wrote: http://www.reddit.com/r/linguistics/comments/whnoj/as_an_indian_never_realized_that_these_words_from/ As an Indian, never realized that these words from 'Indian English' are outdated in other parts of the world. Could you confirm if these are actually not used elsewhere? (self.linguistics) submitted 5 hours ago by Froogler So I was going through this link. While I know that 'do the needful' and 'revert back' are wrong usages even though it's common here, I was surprised that a lot of other words are considered antiquated too. Could you 'do the needful' and let me know if these words/phrases are indeed not used elsewhere break-up - What's your salary breakup'? bunk a class - To skip class without permission carrying - To be pregnant, as in She is carrying. My own additions to the list: in the family way - To be pregnant chargesheet - Formal charges filed in a court (also in BrE, with a space); v. to file charges against someone in court Surely this isn't just Inglish?! Thaths -- Homer: Hey, what does this job pay? Carl: Nuthin'. Homer: D'oh! Carl: Unless you're crooked. Homer: Woo-hoo! Sudhakar ChandraSlacker Without Borders
Re: [silk] outdated words in Indian English
On Fri, Jul 13, 2012 at 10:58 AM, Srini RamaKrishnan che...@gmail.com wrote: On Fri, Jul 13, 2012 at 3:42 PM, Eugen Leitl eu...@leitl.org wrote: So I was going through this link. While I know that 'do the needful' and 'revert back' are wrong usages even though it's common here, I was surprised that a lot of other words are considered antiquated too. Could you 'do the needful' and let me know if these words/phrases are indeed not used elsewhere Am I the only one who groaned like I could hear nails scratching on a chalkboard? I quickly scrolled down to the bottom needing no more of that. I am perplexed at my strong negative reaction and snobbery, language isn't really anything more than a vehicle to convey ideas at the end of the day. Yeah, but language is also a mechanism for conveying group membership signals. It requires conscious effort not to pay attention to them. We are hierarchy-obsessed primates after all. Andre
Re: [silk] outdated words in Indian English
On Fri, Jul 13, 2012 at 7:12 PM, Eugen Leitl eu...@leitl.org wrote: http://www.reddit.com/r/linguistics/comments/whnoj/as_an_indian_never_realized_that_these_words_from/ As an Indian, never realized that these words from 'Indian English' are outdated in other parts of the world. Could you confirm if these are actually not used elsewhere? (self.linguistics) club - To merge or put two things together. 'Just club it together' This is widely used. pant - 'Trousers' I believe Americans use pants quite often. In India and the US, pants mean trousers, while in the UK, pants mean pants, as in underpants. C -- http://about.me/chandrachoodan +447594553053
Re: [silk] outdated words in Indian English
On Fri, Jul 13, 2012 at 8:46 AM, Chandrachoodan Gopalakrishnan chandrachoo...@gmail.com wrote: I believe Americans use pants quite often. In India and the US, pants mean trousers, while in the UK, pants mean pants, as in underpants. I hear knickers in the UK for underpants C -- http://about.me/chandrachoodan +447594553053
Re: [silk] outdated words in Indian English
On Fri, Jul 13, 2012 at 9:23 PM, Danese Cooper dan...@gmail.com wrote: I hear knickers in the UK for underpants Knickers are used, but mostly its pants. Or perhaps that's a West Country/Bristolian usage. C
Re: [silk] outdated words in Indian English
On Friday 13 Jul 2012 7:12:33 pm Eugen Leitl wrote: http://www.reddit.com/r/linguistics/comments/whnoj/as_an_indian_never_reali zed_that_these_words_from/ Big deal. Ever since Macaulay made the learning of English compulsory for the natives of India who were up until then studying useless Sanskrit and Arabic, the most priviileged Englsh speaking Indians have always considred the Englander (or his latest avatar, the American) as the man whose English is to be emulated. Indians, particularly English speaking Indians, carry with them (in my view) a deep sense of inferiority about themselves and their culture and are always apologetic about themselves and their own compatriots being wrong, outdated or un PC. One's self image is built up by being different from (and better than) the native, dehati, vernacular speaking fresh off the boat Indian. This article is by yet another guy who doesn't know that a language can only be made one's own by not being apologetic and creating imaginary out of date issues as if language is a lump of raw meat that must be eaten soon before it rots or a pair of bell bottoms that cannot be worn in public because it is out of fashion. The most well adjusted Indian is the one who is not conscious and apologetic about his English and his accent and does not squrim in the presence of other indians who speak out of date English. It is not out of date in India. shiv
Re: [silk] outdated words in Indian English
On Fri, Jul 13, 2012 at 9:00 AM, ss cybers...@gmail.com wrote: On Friday 13 Jul 2012 7:12:33 pm Eugen Leitl wrote: http://www.reddit.com/r/linguistics/comments/whnoj/as_an_indian_never_reali zed_that_these_words_from/ Big deal. Ever since Macaulay made the learning of English compulsory for the natives of India who were up until then studying useless Sanskrit and Arabic, Ummm. I thought the language of the Moghul court was Persian Thaths -- Homer: Hey, what does this job pay? Carl: Nuthin'. Homer: D'oh! Carl: Unless you're crooked. Homer: Woo-hoo! Sudhakar ChandraSlacker Without Borders
Re: [silk] outdated words in Indian English
It was. That was just Shiv in mid-flow demonstrating that he DOESN'T squirm. He tends to get carried away proving his balance and refusal to be carried away. Sent from my iPad On Jul 13, 2012, at 9:34 PM, Thaths tha...@gmail.com wrote: On Fri, Jul 13, 2012 at 9:00 AM, ss cybers...@gmail.com wrote: On Friday 13 Jul 2012 7:12:33 pm Eugen Leitl wrote: http://www.reddit.com/r/linguistics/comments/whnoj/as_an_indian_never_reali zed_that_these_words_from/ Big deal. Ever since Macaulay made the learning of English compulsory for the natives of India who were up until then studying useless Sanskrit and Arabic, Ummm. I thought the language of the Moghul court was Persian Thaths -- Homer: Hey, what does this job pay? Carl: Nuthin'. Homer: D'oh! Carl: Unless you're crooked. Homer: Woo-hoo! Sudhakar ChandraSlacker Without Borders
Re: [silk] outdated words in Indian English
that sounds...recursive. must be hard for him ;-) On Fri, Jul 13, 2012 at 9:08 AM, Bonobashi bonoba...@yahoo.co.in wrote: It was. That was just Shiv in mid-flow demonstrating that he DOESN'T squirm. He tends to get carried away proving his balance and refusal to be carried away. Sent from my iPad
Re: [silk] outdated words in Indian English
I can't bear the burden. This really belongs to Ram and functional equivlents. Sent from my iPad On Jul 13, 2012, at 9:43 PM, Danese Cooper dan...@gmail.com wrote: that sounds...recursive. must be hard for him ;-) On Fri, Jul 13, 2012 at 9:08 AM, Bonobashi bonoba...@yahoo.co.in wrote: It was. That was just Shiv in mid-flow demonstrating that he DOESN'T squirm. He tends to get carried away proving his balance and refusal to be carried away. Sent from my iPad
Re: [silk] outdated words in Indian English
On 13 Jul 2012, at 19:44, Thaths tha...@gmail.com wrote: My own additions to the list: in the family way - To be pregnant Issue: referring to children Good name: As in what's your good name? Mr./ Mrs. as substitutes for husband/wife Prepone Channelise Ingrid
Re: [silk] outdated words in Indian English
On Friday 13 Jul 2012 7:12:33 pm Eugen Leitl wrote: http://www.reddit.com/r/linguistics/comments/whnoj/as_an_indian_never_reali zed_that_these_words_from/ Incidentally. http://www.indianexpress.com/news/gurgaons-of-the-mind/973709/0 Gurgaons of the Mind In a small way, this episode highlights several crises we are facing. It is symptomatic of our lack of intellectual self-confidence that we constantly take our measure from what is written about us abroad. Some of this is to the good: an outside perspective can be an aid to greater self-awareness. But our relationship with outside perspectives is not in the service of greater self-reflection. It has, rather, become the yardstick by which we measure ourselves, the basis of judgement and the mechanism by which our pride is inflated or deflated. shiv
Re: [silk] outdated words in Indian English
On Friday 13 Jul 2012 9:34:32 pm Thaths wrote: Ummm. I thought the language of the Moghul court was Persian You haven't been reading history have you? Naughty naughty. The court language and the language of the courtesans too perhaps was never the language of education. It was madrassas and Arabic. shiv
Re: [silk] outdated words in Indian English
On Fri, Jul 13, 2012 at 9:30 PM, ss cybers...@gmail.com wrote: On Friday 13 Jul 2012 7:12:33 pm Eugen Leitl wrote: http://www.reddit.com/r/linguistics/comments/whnoj/as_an_indian_never_reali zed_that_these_words_from/ Big deal. Ever since Macaulay made the learning of English compulsory for the natives of India who were up until then studying useless Sanskrit and Arabic, the most priviileged Englsh speaking Indians have always considred the Englander (or his latest avatar, the American) as the man whose English is to be emulated. Indians, particularly English speaking Indians, carry with them (in my view) a deep sense of inferiority about themselves and their culture and are always apologetic about themselves and their own compatriots being wrong, outdated or un PC. One's self image is built up by being different from (and better than) the native, dehati, vernacular speaking fresh off the boat Indian. This article is by yet another guy who doesn't know that a language can only be made one's own by not being apologetic and creating imaginary out of date issues as if language is a lump of raw meat that must be eaten soon before it rots or a pair of bell bottoms that cannot be worn in public because it is out of fashion. The most well adjusted Indian is the one who is not conscious and apologetic about his English and his accent and does not squrim in the presence of other indians who speak out of date English. It is not out of date in India. I have to agree with Shiv here. As an English dialect, Indian English has a much longer history than most of the other colonial dialects. I'd guess only the american and caribbean ones are older. Why are our usages any more incorrect than any other regionalisms? Is it because our faces are browner? While it's useful to know that certain phrases don't travel well, I don't see any reason to be ashamed of them. -- b
Re: [silk] outdated words in Indian English
Sure but language also has aesthetic effect. There's a tone to words, quite separate from the meaning of the words, that enhances the meaning because of the intonation. Sent from BlackBerry® on Airtel -Original Message- From: Deepak Shenoy deepakshe...@gmail.com Sender: silklist-bounces+nikhil.mehra773=gmail@lists.hserus.net Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2012 22:53:46 To: silklist@lists.hserus.net Reply-To: silklist@lists.hserus.net Subject: Re: [silk] outdated words in Indian English On Jul 13, 2012 10:34 PM, ss cybers...@gmail.com wrote: On Friday 13 Jul 2012 7:12:33 pm Eugen Leitl wrote: http://www.reddit.com/r/linguistics/comments/whnoj/as_an_indian_never_reali zed_that_these_words_from/ Incidentally. http://www.indianexpress.com/news/gurgaons-of-the-mind/973709/0 Gurgaons of the Mind Recently I came to the conclusion I was gurgaon-ing, in that article's sense of the word, in my dislike for SMS lingo (like 4=for, l8r etc). Language is mostly for communication. Grammar and spelling can take a hike, really, if we can communicate effectively with someone else using whatever the heck works. If SMS lingo works, why not, when you have like 140 characters in twitter, and you lose context otherwise. So if the phrases India uses are outdated abroad, who cares?
Re: [silk] outdated words in Indian English
On Fri, Jul 13, 2012 at 10:26 AM, Nikhil Mehra nikhil.mehra...@gmail.comwrote: ** Sure but language also has aesthetic effect. There's a tone to words, quite separate from the meaning of the words, that enhances the meaning because of the intonation. A rose is a r0s3 is a r0z? Thaths Sent from BlackBerry® on Airtel -- *From: * Deepak Shenoy deepakshe...@gmail.com *Sender: * silklist-bounces+nikhil.mehra773=gmail@lists.hserus.net *Date: *Fri, 13 Jul 2012 22:53:46 +0530 *To: *silklist@lists.hserus.net *ReplyTo: * silklist@lists.hserus.net *Subject: *Re: [silk] outdated words in Indian English On Jul 13, 2012 10:34 PM, ss cybers...@gmail.com wrote: On Friday 13 Jul 2012 7:12:33 pm Eugen Leitl wrote: http://www.reddit.com/r/linguistics/comments/whnoj/as_an_indian_never_reali zed_that_these_words_from/ Incidentally. http://www.indianexpress.com/news/gurgaons-of-the-mind/973709/0 Gurgaons of the Mind Recently I came to the conclusion I was gurgaon-ing, in that article's sense of the word, in my dislike for SMS lingo (like 4=for, l8r etc). Language is mostly for communication. Grammar and spelling can take a hike, really, if we can communicate effectively with someone else using whatever the heck works. If SMS lingo works, why not, when you have like 140 characters in twitter, and you lose context otherwise. So if the phrases India uses are outdated abroad, who cares? -- Homer: Hey, what does this job pay? Carl: Nuthin'. Homer: D'oh! Carl: Unless you're crooked. Homer: Woo-hoo! Sudhakar ChandraSlacker Without Borders
Re: [silk] outdated words in Indian English
On Fri, Jul 13, 2012 at 10:56 PM, Nikhil Mehra nikhil.mehra...@gmail.com wrote: Sure but language also has aesthetic effect. There's a tone to words, quite separate from the meaning of the words, that enhances the meaning because of the intonation. Oh but we as humans derive meaning from whatever being exposed to something long enough, like playing solitaire :) Or Like this http://xkcd.com/915/
Re: [silk] outdated words in Indian English
A roz is. But im not talking about the written word. SMS word contractions often lead to grammatic contractions or adjustments that just dont have the same effect. Sent from BlackBerry® on Airtel -Original Message- From: Thaths tha...@gmail.com Sender: silklist-bounces+nikhil.mehra773=gmail@lists.hserus.net Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2012 10:28:27 To: silklist@lists.hserus.net Reply-To: silklist@lists.hserus.net Subject: Re: [silk] outdated words in Indian English On Fri, Jul 13, 2012 at 10:26 AM, Nikhil Mehra nikhil.mehra...@gmail.comwrote: ** Sure but language also has aesthetic effect. There's a tone to words, quite separate from the meaning of the words, that enhances the meaning because of the intonation. A rose is a r0s3 is a r0z? Thaths Sent from BlackBerry® on Airtel -- *From: * Deepak Shenoy deepakshe...@gmail.com *Sender: * silklist-bounces+nikhil.mehra773=gmail@lists.hserus.net *Date: *Fri, 13 Jul 2012 22:53:46 +0530 *To: *silklist@lists.hserus.net *ReplyTo: * silklist@lists.hserus.net *Subject: *Re: [silk] outdated words in Indian English On Jul 13, 2012 10:34 PM, ss cybers...@gmail.com wrote: On Friday 13 Jul 2012 7:12:33 pm Eugen Leitl wrote: http://www.reddit.com/r/linguistics/comments/whnoj/as_an_indian_never_reali zed_that_these_words_from/ Incidentally. http://www.indianexpress.com/news/gurgaons-of-the-mind/973709/0 Gurgaons of the Mind Recently I came to the conclusion I was gurgaon-ing, in that article's sense of the word, in my dislike for SMS lingo (like 4=for, l8r etc). Language is mostly for communication. Grammar and spelling can take a hike, really, if we can communicate effectively with someone else using whatever the heck works. If SMS lingo works, why not, when you have like 140 characters in twitter, and you lose context otherwise. So if the phrases India uses are outdated abroad, who cares? -- Homer: Hey, what does this job pay? Carl: Nuthin'. Homer: D'oh! Carl: Unless you're crooked. Homer: Woo-hoo! Sudhakar ChandraSlacker Without Borders
Re: [silk] outdated words in Indian English
Possibly. But the entry of informal contractions in formal situations causes loss of effect, i feel. Sent from BlackBerry® on Airtel -Original Message- From: Deepak Shenoy deepakshe...@gmail.com Sender: silklist-bounces+nikhil.mehra773=gmail@lists.hserus.net Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2012 22:58:52 To: silklist@lists.hserus.net Reply-To: silklist@lists.hserus.net Subject: Re: [silk] outdated words in Indian English On Fri, Jul 13, 2012 at 10:56 PM, Nikhil Mehra nikhil.mehra...@gmail.com wrote: Sure but language also has aesthetic effect. There's a tone to words, quite separate from the meaning of the words, that enhances the meaning because of the intonation. Oh but we as humans derive meaning from whatever being exposed to something long enough, like playing solitaire :) Or Like this http://xkcd.com/915/
Re: [silk] outdated words in Indian English
On Fri, Jul 13, 2012 at 11:02 PM, Nikhil Mehra nikhil.mehra...@gmail.com wrote: Possibly. But the entry of informal contractions in formal situations causes loss of effect, i feel. Strangely I've gotten involved in corp life recently (consulting contract) and it seems like formal conversations are even more shady, with terms like PFA and FYI and top posting and truncated sentences, and I'm speaking of bankers here, a species that takes a long time to evolve...
Re: [silk] outdated words in Indian English
No. Shiv is right. Mainstream (and, for Muslims, compulsory) education was in madrasahs, and started with Arabic. It was not exclusively Arabic, and study of Persian was taken up when the course of study defined demanded it. Sent from my iPad On Jul 13, 2012, at 10:56 PM, Thaths tha...@gmail.com wrote: On Fri, Jul 13, 2012 at 10:05 AM, ss cybers...@gmail.com wrote: On Friday 13 Jul 2012 9:34:32 pm Thaths wrote: Ummm. I thought the language of the Moghul court was Persian You haven't been reading history have you? Naughty naughty. The court language and the language of the courtesans too perhaps was never the language of education. It was madrassas and Arabic. Sanskrit and Arabic might have been studied (by a minority who could afford education) for liturgical purposes. But weren't the language of the bazaars the likes of Urdu, Hindustani, Bhojpuri, Awadhi, etc.? Thaths -- Homer: Hey, what does this job pay? Carl: Nuthin'. Homer: D'oh! Carl: Unless you're crooked. Homer: Woo-hoo! Sudhakar ChandraSlacker Without Borders
Re: [silk] outdated words in Indian English
Persian was not only the court of language but the language of administration as well, until 1832, when English replaced it. Sent from my iPad On Jul 13, 2012, at 11:23 PM, Bonobashi bonoba...@yahoo.co.in wrote: No. Shiv is right. Mainstream (and, for Muslims, compulsory) education was in madrasahs, and started with Arabic. It was not exclusively Arabic, and study of Persian was taken up when the course of study defined demanded it. Sent from my iPad On Jul 13, 2012, at 10:56 PM, Thaths tha...@gmail.com wrote: On Fri, Jul 13, 2012 at 10:05 AM, ss cybers...@gmail.com wrote: On Friday 13 Jul 2012 9:34:32 pm Thaths wrote: Ummm. I thought the language of the Moghul court was Persian You haven't been reading history have you? Naughty naughty. The court language and the language of the courtesans too perhaps was never the language of education. It was madrassas and Arabic. Sanskrit and Arabic might have been studied (by a minority who could afford education) for liturgical purposes. But weren't the language of the bazaars the likes of Urdu, Hindustani, Bhojpuri, Awadhi, etc.? Thaths -- Homer: Hey, what does this job pay? Carl: Nuthin'. Homer: D'oh! Carl: Unless you're crooked. Homer: Woo-hoo! Sudhakar ChandraSlacker Without Borders
Re: [silk] outdated words in Indian English
Oh no. Kipling had just as thorough a knowledge of english, and was fluent enough to write urdu puns into his dialogue --Original Message-- From: Srini RamaKrishnan Sender: silklist-bounces+suresh=hserus@lists.hserus.net To: silklist@lists.hserus.net ReplyTo: silklist@lists.hserus.net Subject: Re: [silk] outdated words in Indian English Sent: Jul 14, 2012 03:16 On Fri, Jul 13, 2012 at 6:00 PM, ss cybers...@gmail.com wrote: [...] The most well adjusted Indian is the one who is not conscious and apologetic about his English and his accent and does not squrim in the presence of other indians who speak out of date English. It is not out of date in India. The British didn't help exactly in this respect you know, Mundy, Talbot. King of the Khyber Rifles: He spoke English well enough. Few educated foreign gentlemen could have spoken it better, although there was the tendency to use slang that well-bred natives insist on picking up from British officers; and as he went on, here and there the native idiom crept through, translated. This is Mundy who was supposed to be understanding of the natives, Kipling no doubt would have fainted at so much praise being offered to a native. -- srs (blackberry)
Re: [silk] outdated words in Indian English
Of course it's not true! Indians spoke English to the 'manor' born, with no slips or stumbles! Anybody who denies that is a lackey of the Marxist hordes ruling Indian history - and economics, and anthropology, and sociology and that whole pack of nonsense outside the good ole professions - and probably thinks that we speak what we do because the Aryans came riding in, two by two, hurrah. Having thrown You Know Who off the scent, we can re-convene under the rowan bushes, or, since there isn't much rowan growing in India, the rhododendrons, and plot how to send out the truth, which is ... Aaack! He's got me! We've been betrayed! Scatter, you fools! Sent from my iPad On Jul 14, 2012, at 3:16 AM, Srini RamaKrishnan che...@gmail.com wrote: On Fri, Jul 13, 2012 at 6:00 PM, ss cybers...@gmail.com wrote: [...] The most well adjusted Indian is the one who is not conscious and apologetic about his English and his accent and does not squrim in the presence of other indians who speak out of date English. It is not out of date in India. The British didn't help exactly in this respect you know, Mundy, Talbot. King of the Khyber Rifles: He spoke English well enough. Few educated foreign gentlemen could have spoken it better, although there was the tendency to use slang that well-bred natives insist on picking up from British officers; and as he went on, here and there the native idiom crept through, translated. This is Mundy who was supposed to be understanding of the natives, Kipling no doubt would have fainted at so much praise being offered to a native.
Re: [silk] outdated words in Indian English
On Sat, Jul 14, 2012 at 2:10 AM, Suresh Ramasubramanian sur...@hserus.net wrote: Oh no. Kipling had just as thorough a knowledge of english, and was fluent enough to write urdu puns into his dialogue Yes, but he was no believer of race equality, he was a believer in the Empire first and foremost. He viewed the Indians as a lesser race incapable of doing anything as good as the Englishman, though he had great knowledge and love for them - like the gentle Southerner and his house Negro. Kipling after all gave the world the idea of the White man's burden. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_White_Man's_Burden He thought in terms of bringing civilization to the heathens, and the fruits of an empire. We are called upon to rule, not for our glory, but for their happiness... etc. Kipling made more efforts at understanding native culture than the average jingoistic Englishman, but he was no equal rights campaigner, so saying he knew Urdu isn't much. See Edward Said's Culture and Imperialism http://www.english-literature.org/essays/kipling.php -- Mundy is actually far better in this regard, he even had a native hero Hira Singh who displays bravery in Flanders during WW I - // Talbot Mundy. Hira Singh : when India came to fight in Flanders // Though I find even Mundy's casual negation of the Eastern mind on occasion quite shocking. Cheeni
Re: [silk] outdated words in Indian English
ha. with kipling, you need to scratch under the surface a bit to get at his love for india, which was kind of over and above that veneer of jingoism and contempt. to be very fair he had much the same contempt for various ugly brit stereotypes --srs (iPad) On 14-Jul-2012, at 6:19, Srini RamaKrishnan che...@gmail.com wrote: On Sat, Jul 14, 2012 at 2:10 AM, Suresh Ramasubramanian sur...@hserus.net wrote: Oh no. Kipling had just as thorough a knowledge of english, and was fluent enough to write urdu puns into his dialogue Yes, but he was no believer of race equality, he was a believer in the Empire first and foremost. He viewed the Indians as a lesser race incapable of doing anything as good as the Englishman, though he had great knowledge and love for them - like the gentle Southerner and his house Negro. Kipling after all gave the world the idea of the White man's burden. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_White_Man's_Burden He thought in terms of bringing civilization to the heathens, and the fruits of an empire. We are called upon to rule, not for our glory, but for their happiness... etc. Kipling made more efforts at understanding native culture than the average jingoistic Englishman, but he was no equal rights campaigner, so saying he knew Urdu isn't much. See Edward Said's Culture and Imperialism http://www.english-literature.org/essays/kipling.php -- Mundy is actually far better in this regard, he even had a native hero Hira Singh who displays bravery in Flanders during WW I - // Talbot Mundy. Hira Singh : when India came to fight in Flanders // Though I find even Mundy's casual negation of the Eastern mind on occasion quite shocking. Cheeni
Re: [silk] outdated words in Indian English
Kipling is Gandhi's contemporary, funny how they came to rather different conclusions about the fate of the races. Not an imperialist you say? On Sat, Jul 14, 2012 at 3:04 AM, Suresh Ramasubramanian sur...@hserus.net wrote: ha. with kipling, you need to scratch under the surface a bit to get at his love for india, which was kind of over and above that veneer of jingoism and contempt. to be very fair he had much the same contempt for various ugly brit stereotypes
Re: [silk] outdated words in Indian English
I didn't argue that --Original Message-- From: Srini RamaKrishnan Sender: silklist-bounces+suresh=hserus@lists.hserus.net To: silklist@lists.hserus.net ReplyTo: silklist@lists.hserus.net Subject: Re: [silk] outdated words in Indian English Sent: Jul 14, 2012 06:38 Kipling is Gandhi's contemporary, funny how they came to rather different conclusions about the fate of the races. Not an imperialist you say? On Sat, Jul 14, 2012 at 3:04 AM, Suresh Ramasubramanian sur...@hserus.net wrote: ha. with kipling, you need to scratch under the surface a bit to get at his love for india, which was kind of over and above that veneer of jingoism and contempt. to be very fair he had much the same contempt for various ugly brit stereotypes -- srs (blackberry)
Re: [silk] outdated words in Indian English
On Friday 13 Jul 2012 10:56:58 pm Thaths wrote: Sanskrit and Arabic might have been studied (by a minority who could afford education) for liturgical purposes. But weren't the language of the bazaars the likes of Urdu, Hindustani, Bhojpuri, Awadhi, etc.? Oh absolutely. But there was a system of education in India that, in retrospect was as elitist as it is now. All the texts containing knowledge for Hindus was in Sanskrit, which they studied. All that was required to be studies by Muslims was in Arabic. For centuries before Macaulay both Hindu and Muslim kings has subsidzed education in both Arabic and Sanskrit (at least that is what Macaulay said). Initially the Brits continued these subsidies in the areas they got involved in. What Macaulay did was to stop Britidh subsidies for Sanskrit and Arabic education and introduced English. So what we have now is that the vast mass of Indians speak Indian languages , but the few elite educated (who used to be Sanskrit/Arabic scholars) are now English speakers. Democratization of education does not seem to have existed in old times and still does not exist. You learn an elite language to become elite and take on the mannerisms and attitudes that the elite language brings with it. shiv
Re: [silk] outdated words in Indian English
On Saturday 14 Jul 2012 6:38:41 am Srini RamaKrishnan wrote: Kipling is Gandhi's contemporary, funny how they came to rather different conclusions about the fate of the races. Not an imperialist you say? LOL. Kipling was fine as long as the native was a Gunga Din. A darkie like Uncle Tom who knew his place. shiv
Re: [silk] outdated words in Indian English
The exception to Shiv's colourfully phrased but authentic description was the Punjab' which had an astonishingly modern system that was uprooted by the British. The consequence is Banta and Santa jokes. Sent from my iPad On Jul 14, 2012, at 9:04 AM, ss cybers...@gmail.com wrote: On Friday 13 Jul 2012 10:56:58 pm Thaths wrote: Sanskrit and Arabic might have been studied (by a minority who could afford education) for liturgical purposes. But weren't the language of the bazaars the likes of Urdu, Hindustani, Bhojpuri, Awadhi, etc.? Oh absolutely. But there was a system of education in India that, in retrospect was as elitist as it is now. All the texts containing knowledge for Hindus was in Sanskrit, which they studied. All that was required to be studies by Muslims was in Arabic. For centuries before Macaulay both Hindu and Muslim kings has subsidzed education in both Arabic and Sanskrit (at least that is what Macaulay said). Initially the Brits continued these subsidies in the areas they got involved in. What Macaulay did was to stop Britidh subsidies for Sanskrit and Arabic education and introduced English. So what we have now is that the vast mass of Indians speak Indian languages , but the few elite educated (who used to be Sanskrit/Arabic scholars) are now English speakers. Democratization of education does not seem to have existed in old times and still does not exist. You learn an elite language to become elite and take on the mannerisms and attitudes that the elite language brings with it. shiv
Re: [silk] outdated words in Indian English
On 13 July 2012 21:47, Bonobashi bonoba...@yahoo.co.in wrote: I can't bear the burden. This really belongs to Ram and functional equivlents. You're on your own. I tend to squirm most often at things I say, rather than things others say. So I'm a recursed Maculayite? Udhay, how about that for a band name? Ram
Re: [silk] outdated words in Indian English
On Friday 13 Jul 2012 10:39:05 pm Biju Chacko wrote: Why are our usages any more incorrect than any other regionalisms? Is it because our faces are browner? Biju you have touched a nerve that would cause the intense anger of cognitive dissonance and denial to come pouring out of various places and people. Here is exactly what Macaulay said in 1835 http://www.columbia.edu/itc/mealac/pritchett/00generallinks/macaulay/txt_minute_education_1835.html it is impossible for us, with our limited means, to attempt to educate the body of the people. We must at present do our best to form a class who may be interpreters between us and the millions whom we govern, --a class of persons Indian in blood and colour, but English in tastes, in opinions, in morals and in intellect. To that class we may leave it to refine the vernacular dialects of the country, to enrich those dialects with terms of science borrowed from the Western nomenclature, and to render them by degrees fit vehicles for conveying knowledge to the great mass of the population. The system achieved exactly that in creating a class of persons Indian in blood and colour, but English in tastes, in opinions, in morals and in intellect If you look at English tastes. morals and opinions from 1800 to well beyond 1900, colour racism was the norm. So Indians who became good brown sahibs were actively contemptupous of the native Indian. When this brown sahib himself faces crolor or language based discrimination, he gets all apologetic and defensive. And then we have a new class of Indians who are ashamed of their own backround and will argue with great erudition about why his compatriots are inferior compared to himself. a person who has made it among the white peoples of the west. shiv
Re: [silk] outdated words in Indian English
On 14 July 2012 03:09, Bonobashi bonoba...@yahoo.co.in wrote: Persian was not only the court of language but the language of Silver surfer moment? Ram
Re: [silk] outdated words in Indian English
There you go, despising your fellow Indian, just because you've done your bit impressing furriners. You've just proved You Know Who right. Sent from my iPad On Jul 14, 2012, at 9:30 AM, Ramakrishnan Sundaram r.sunda...@gmail.com wrote: On 14 July 2012 03:09, Bonobashi bonoba...@yahoo.co.in wrote: Persian was not only the court of language but the language of Silver surfer moment? Ram
