Re: [Simh] VAX 8200
>Timothe Litt (l...@ieee.org) wrote: >Under VMS, PFN map a section to the EEPROM, copy it to normal memory & write >it to disk. Actually it looks like the EEPROM utility (VAX 8200 Owner’s Manual, chapter 3) can save the entire EEPROM image to a file. I’ll see what I can do. Bob ___ Simh mailing list Simh@trailing-edge.com http://mailman.trailing-edge.com/mailman/listinfo/simh
Re: [Simh] VAX 8200
>Under VMS, PFN map a section to the EEPROM, copy it to normal memory & write >it to disk. Um, fair enough. I don’t suppose someone has a program already written to do this? I could have easily done that about ten or fifteen years ago, and in theory I still can, but it’ll probably take an afternoon with the VMS manuals to remember how J Bob ___ Simh mailing list Simh@trailing-edge.com http://mailman.trailing-edge.com/mailman/listinfo/simh
Re: [Simh] VAX 8200
Under VMS, PFN map a section to the EEPROM, copy it to normal memory & write it to disk. Be careful with which instructions you use; IO space (where it lives) may have alignment/size restrictions. MOVL should be safe. On 16-Mar-17 23:38, Robert Armstrong wrote: >> Does anyone have a copy of EEPROM image? > Do you know a way to extract a copy of the EEPROM image from the machine? > If not, is the chip socketed? Do you know the part number off hand? If it's > socketed AND it's a standard part I can probably read it in my EPROM > programmer. > > Bob > > > > ___ > Simh mailing list > Simh@trailing-edge.com > http://mailman.trailing-edge.com/mailman/listinfo/simh smime.p7s Description: S/MIME Cryptographic Signature ___ Simh mailing list Simh@trailing-edge.com http://mailman.trailing-edge.com/mailman/listinfo/simh
Re: [Simh] VAX 8200
>Does anyone have a copy of EEPROM image? Do you know a way to extract a copy of the EEPROM image from the machine? If not, is the chip socketed? Do you know the part number off hand? If it's socketed AND it's a standard part I can probably read it in my EPROM programmer. Bob ___ Simh mailing list Simh@trailing-edge.com http://mailman.trailing-edge.com/mailman/listinfo/simh
Re: [Simh] VAX 8200
Yeah. Yes, it need console media for SRM firmware. There is 16k EEPROM in VAX 8200 contains config setting and bootstrap codes for RX50 and KDA50 drives. When power up started, a RX50 bootstrap will be copied into boot RAM at starting 2009 from 20098000 then execute it. KA820 technical manual have a listing of boot ROM for RX50 and KDA50. Does anyone have a copy of EEPROM image? Can someone make a dump of console media disks? Yes, KA820 supports multi-processor system. Tim -Original Message- From: Simh [mailto:simh-boun...@trailing-edge.com] On Behalf Of Robert Armstrong Sent: Thursday, March 16, 2017 4:07 PM To: 'Ethan Dicks' ; simh@trailing-edge.com Subject: Re: [Simh] VAX 8200 > Ethan Dicks (ethan.di...@gmail.com) wrote: >I happen to have one (from when I worked for Jim Ebright). I have a running 8350 as well, should you need a dump of the console media or something. It is, I believe, the physically smallest BI bus VAX, and therefore interesting for those reason. It's the only such machine that I could fit in my garage :-) It's also the only multi-processor VAX system that I have and equally interesting for that reason too. FWIW, I've always wondered if the limitation to two CPUs was purely for testing and support reasons - it doesn't seem that there's any reason why you could not plug in three or even more CPU cards. Bob Armstrong ___ Simh mailing list Simh@trailing-edge.com http://mailman.trailing-edge.com/mailman/listinfo/simh ___ Simh mailing list Simh@trailing-edge.com http://mailman.trailing-edge.com/mailman/listinfo/simh
Re: [Simh] VAX 730 Console Tapes [was: VAX 8200]
On 2017-03-17 03:26, Robert Armstrong wrote: Johnny Billquist (b...@softjar.se) wrote: My only comment is that I normally never booted from the TU58. Why would you do that, except at initial install, or to run diagnostics. You're confusing the 730 with the 750. On a 730 you didn't have any choice, assuming you're starting from power off. The CPU microcode, CFE software, VMB, and pretty much everything else was stored on the TU58. You are right. Or, not so much confusing as not remembering. I mostly remember the 11/750. Worked way more on that than on 11/730 machines. The 750 was a different matter. The microcode was in ROM, VMB was in the boot block on the disk, and you could live without the TU58. Not really the VMB, but eventually you did get to VMB. The boot blocks were pretty simple on the 11/750, as far as I can remember. Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: b...@softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol ___ Simh mailing list Simh@trailing-edge.com http://mailman.trailing-edge.com/mailman/listinfo/simh
Re: [Simh] VAX 730 Console Tapes [was: VAX 8200]
> Johnny Billquist (b...@softjar.se) wrote: >My only comment is that I normally never booted from the TU58. >Why would you do that, except at initial install, or to run diagnostics. You're confusing the 730 with the 750. On a 730 you didn't have any choice, assuming you're starting from power off. The CPU microcode, CFE software, VMB, and pretty much everything else was stored on the TU58. The 750 was a different matter. The microcode was in ROM, VMB was in the boot block on the disk, and you could live without the TU58. Bob ___ Simh mailing list Simh@trailing-edge.com http://mailman.trailing-edge.com/mailman/listinfo/simh
Re: [Simh] VAX 730 Console Tapes [was: VAX 8200]
On 2017-03-16 23:01, Hittner, David T [US] (MS) wrote: What I started with, though, was managing 11/730s in the mid-80s and was optimizing the order of files on the console tape to be in the order they were requested, so a 30-minute boot process fell to under 5 minutes... nearly all the time spent was doing serial transfers with far, far less tape motion. -ethan What always surprised me was that Digital provided VAX 730/750 Console tapes "Out Of Order" (alphabetically) which caused slow cold boot times, and YOU had to create an optimized version of the tape if you wanted a faster boot time. And as Ethan said it really made a difference in the cold boot time. .. What a pain that was. I guess they never cold-booted the internal development console-tape systems enough to get annoyed enough to optimize the tapes for the customers. I spent a lot of time making boot-optimized console tapes also. My only comment is that I normally never booted from the TU58. Why would you do that, except at initial install, or to run diagnostics. Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: b...@softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol ___ Simh mailing list Simh@trailing-edge.com http://mailman.trailing-edge.com/mailman/listinfo/simh
[Simh] VAX 730 Console Tapes [was: VAX 8200]
> What I started with, though, was managing 11/730s in the mid-80s and was > optimizing the order of files on the console tape to be in the order they > were requested, so a 30-minute boot process fell to under 5 minutes... nearly > all the time spent was doing serial transfers with far, far less tape motion. > -ethan What always surprised me was that Digital provided VAX 730/750 Console tapes "Out Of Order" (alphabetically) which caused slow cold boot times, and YOU had to create an optimized version of the tape if you wanted a faster boot time. And as Ethan said it really made a difference in the cold boot time. .. What a pain that was. I guess they never cold-booted the internal development console-tape systems enough to get annoyed enough to optimize the tapes for the customers. I spent a lot of time making boot-optimized console tapes also. Dave ___ Simh mailing list Simh@trailing-edge.com http://mailman.trailing-edge.com/mailman/listinfo/simh
Re: [Simh] VAX 8200
On Thu, Mar 16, 2017 at 5:14 PM, Robert Armstrong wrote: >> I might have a DCL script to build a console floppy from files on the system >> volume > > FWIW, on the 7xx machines there was a DCL script provided by DEC called > CONSCOPY. Yes. I recall it. > It used EXCHANGE to copy the console media to a disk container and vice > versa. Yep. > Can't remember if the 8200/8300 machines had the same thing, but I wouldn't > be surprised. I'm pretty sure the 8200/8300 console floppies were in RT11 > format, so EXCHANGE would do the job. IIRC, yes, the floppies are in RT-11 format, and on a true random-access device like a floppy, CONSCOPY or anything else should just do the job. What I started with, though, was managing 11/730s in the mid-80s and was optimizing the order of files on the console tape to be in the order they were requested, so a 30-minute boot process fell to under 5 minutes... nearly all the time spent was doing serial transfers with far, far less tape motion. This optimization wasn't required with RX50 console media, but I still likely backed things up out of deeply-ingrained habit. Have to fire up that box and check. -ethan ___ Simh mailing list Simh@trailing-edge.com http://mailman.trailing-edge.com/mailman/listinfo/simh
Re: [Simh] VAX 8200
> I might have a DCL script to build a console floppy from files on the system > volume FWIW, on the 7xx machines there was a DCL script provided by DEC called CONSCOPY. It used EXCHANGE to copy the console media to a disk container and vice versa. Can't remember if the 8200/8300 machines had the same thing, but I wouldn't be surprised. I'm pretty sure the 8200/8300 console floppies were in RT11 format, so EXCHANGE would do the job. Bob ___ Simh mailing list Simh@trailing-edge.com http://mailman.trailing-edge.com/mailman/listinfo/simh
Re: [Simh] VAX 8200
On Thu, Mar 16, 2017 at 4:07 PM, Robert Armstrong wrote: >> Ethan Dicks (ethan.di...@gmail.com) wrote: >>I happen to have one (from when I worked for Jim Ebright). > > I have a running 8350 as well, should you need a dump of the console media > or something. So far, so good... and I might have a DCL script to build a console floppy from files on the system volume (I was in the habit of ensuring I could do that from my days with the 11/730 and 11/725). > It is, I believe, the physically smallest BI bus VAX, and therefore > interesting for those reason. Yep. One box for the CPU, memory and peripherals, and all inside a 42"-tall rack. Just add disk. Small footprint. > It's the only such machine that I could fit in my garage :-) With a VAXBI bus? Yeah... there were equal (11/730) or smaller (11/725) Unibus systems, but it was the smallest VAXBI machine outside of the rare VAXstation 8000. > It's also the only multi-processor VAX system that I have and equally > interesting for that reason too. Sure. > FWIW, I've always wondered if the limitation to two CPUs was purely for > testing and support reasons - it doesn't seem that there's any reason why you > could not plug in three or even more CPU cards. What I remember from the 80s is that you _can_ plug in more than 2 cards (you'd need an ID plug on the backplane for additional CPUs, IIRC) but you don't get any more performance from it. Two CPUs rather maxes out the VAXBI bus since all memory and I/O traffic are on the one bus. Also, from back when typical memory cards were 2MB and 4MB, removing memory to add CPUs was also the path to a performance loss. With the MS820-CA 16MB card (of which I have zero), that alleviates this somewhat - 32MB of RAM in an 8200 is not a terrible thing and then only takes up 2 slots. I should say my 8200 has a DWBUA Unibus adapter, but I have 2 VAXBI card cages in the BA-32 and the Unibus DD11-DK is in a BA-11 off to the side. One configuration had the DD11-DK _in_ the BA-32 next to a single VAXBI backplane and there, you had little room for extra anything. -ethan ___ Simh mailing list Simh@trailing-edge.com http://mailman.trailing-edge.com/mailman/listinfo/simh
Re: [Simh] VAX 8200
> Robert Armstrong wrote: > I have a running 8350 [...] I've always wondered if the limitation to two > CPUs was purely for testing and support reasons - > it doesn't seem that there's any reason why you could not plug in three or > even more CPU cards. By the way of the anecdotes, Bernd Ulmann who owns a huge (likely the largest in the world by now) collection of VAX/Alpha equipment (a shed filled with various models of VAXes, including 7000, 6000 vector, 8000 series, MicroVAXes, VAXstations, HSCs, star couplers, RA disks, you name it), including the machines that were never released or were released in a singular quantities (like 32-processor Alpha), owns VAX 8330 (?) -- or anyway a 3-CPU 8000 series machine. The machine was being designed by DEC Germany, and was intended to be a 3-processor edition. However it was generating spurious bus resets and DEC engineering was never able to figure why. Thus the machine was never releases commercially and the only engineering sample had been sitting for a good while in DEC/Compaq engineering storage before being dumped to Bernd's collection. * * * I also cannot help but remember the other story Bernd had, about that 32-processor Alpha. It was special-ordered by some German company, but while Compaq Germany was being putting it together, the company that ordered the machine went out of business. So Compaq held the machine for a while but several years later dumped it to Bernd as well. When I was visiting Bernd some years ago, he still never turned the machine on (unlike most of the others in his collection), since the power draw would put the lights out in the whole village where the shed resides... he was still figuring out the power feed. * * * And then, my favorite of Bernd's tales, is about the machine that had the most exotic fate: it was a MicroVAX III that was being shipped from the Western Germany to the USSR in the late 1980's, and German customs intercepted the shipping (infrequently, but occasionally they would succeeded in that). While German authorities were trying to figure out what to do with the intercepted shipping, the customs put it in the warehouse, where it sat for the next 20 years. In the late 2000's German customs noticed that this box had been sitting there for 20 years, and it was apparently the time to do something about it after all. The box ended up at Bernd's barn. Bernd opened it, powered up this MicroVAX and installed VMS on it -- it worked flawlessly. Few months after learning this story from Bernd (he told it to me while pointing at that MicroVAX) I was at my old VAXcluster room about 2 hours from Moscow (machines were long gone by then), taking out the old tapes -- in the hopes of finding some retro-interesting software/files there. My friend and I took select tapes from the storage shelves down to the building entrance, but we needed to transport them to another building on site located a mile away, where the tapes could be kept temporarily before smuggling them out beyond the secure perimeter. Tapes were bulky and heavy, and carrying them this distance would have been quite an exercise, so my friend called his colleague, who had a car pass to the site. His colleague came in the car, and while we were loading the tapes into the trunk, he looked at those tapes recorded 20 to 25 years ago and said: – I kind of doubt you'll be able to read them. In response I told him a story about Bernd's MicroVAX that sat for 20 years in the box and then worked just fine. To which my friend's colleague responded with an instinctive exclamation, without an instant of thinking: – Of course! What could have ever happened to it?! It's a VAX!___ Simh mailing list Simh@trailing-edge.com http://mailman.trailing-edge.com/mailman/listinfo/simh
Re: [Simh] VAX 8200
I can note here that we ran a 4-CPU 8350 (8354? :-) with Ultrix. Worked very well! This was also the machine which I used when writing the NetBSD vax SMP support. -- Ragge Den 2017-03-16 kl. 21:17, skrev Dan Gahlinger: the vax smp emulator seems to support that theory. Dan Original message From: Robert Armstrong Date: 2017-03-16 4:07 PM (GMT-05:00) To: 'Ethan Dicks' , simh@trailing-edge.com Subject: Re: [Simh] VAX 8200 > Ethan Dicks (ethan.di...@gmail.com) wrote: >I happen to have one (from when I worked for Jim Ebright). I have a running 8350 as well, should you need a dump of the console media or something. It is, I believe, the physically smallest BI bus VAX, and therefore interesting for those reason. It's the only such machine that I could fit in my garage :-) It's also the only multi-processor VAX system that I have and equally interesting for that reason too. FWIW, I've always wondered if the limitation to two CPUs was purely for testing and support reasons - it doesn't seem that there's any reason why you could not plug in three or even more CPU cards. Bob Armstrong ___ Simh mailing list Simh@trailing-edge.com http://mailman.trailing-edge.com/mailman/listinfo/simh ___ Simh mailing list Simh@trailing-edge.com http://mailman.trailing-edge.com/mailman/listinfo/simh ___ Simh mailing list Simh@trailing-edge.com http://mailman.trailing-edge.com/mailman/listinfo/simh
Re: [Simh] VAX 8200
On Thu, Mar 16, 2017 at 4:12 PM, Gary Lee Phillips wrote: > In fact there's very little evidence on the web that the 8200 ever existed. > The first VAX I ever worked with (around 1985 or so) was an 8200... That's earlier than is possible... the model was introduced in Jan, 1986. Don't know date of first ship. > Anyway, yes, the console was an oddity. So was the terrible vacuum-less tape > drive built into the cabinet. I don't know what tape drive you are thinking of (TK50? TM03? TA81+?), but the 8200 was in a BA-32 box in the top of a 42"-tall cabinet and inside the lower part of the cabinet were a couple of cross-bar arms and cable restraints, and on the back, it was approx 50% I/O bulkheads for the ends of all those cables. http://hampage.hu/vax/kepek/Vax8200.jpg -ethan ___ Simh mailing list Simh@trailing-edge.com http://mailman.trailing-edge.com/mailman/listinfo/simh
Re: [Simh] VAX 8200
the vax smp emulator seems to support that theory. Dan Original message From: Robert Armstrong Date: 2017-03-16 4:07 PM (GMT-05:00) To: 'Ethan Dicks' , simh@trailing-edge.com Subject: Re: [Simh] VAX 8200 > Ethan Dicks (ethan.di...@gmail.com) wrote: >I happen to have one (from when I worked for Jim Ebright). I have a running 8350 as well, should you need a dump of the console media or something. It is, I believe, the physically smallest BI bus VAX, and therefore interesting for those reason. It's the only such machine that I could fit in my garage :-) It's also the only multi-processor VAX system that I have and equally interesting for that reason too. FWIW, I've always wondered if the limitation to two CPUs was purely for testing and support reasons - it doesn't seem that there's any reason why you could not plug in three or even more CPU cards. Bob Armstrong ___ Simh mailing list Simh@trailing-edge.com http://mailman.trailing-edge.com/mailman/listinfo/simh ___ Simh mailing list Simh@trailing-edge.com http://mailman.trailing-edge.com/mailman/listinfo/simh
Re: [Simh] VAX 8200
In fact there's very little evidence on the web that the 8200 ever existed. The first VAX I ever worked with (around 1985 or so) was an 8200 and there was a point where I was convinced I had remembered the model ID incorrectly because I could find nothing about it online. Then I found a promotional button in my desk drawer, rectangular with rounded corners, that had a photo of the floor-standing unit and the text "VAX 8200" on it. So I knew it had existed. Must not have been a lot of them sold, though. Anyway, yes, the console was an oddity. So was the terrible vacuum-less tape drive built into the cabinet. We eventually purchased a real drive with vacuum columns because you could never count on reading a backup tape again after it was written. The system ran VMS 4.4 and performed reliably otherwise. We eventually added a Microvax II and a PDP-11 to the complex. The PDP ran RSX and operated as a routing link between the IBM mainframes with JES2/MVS/TSO and the DECNet nodes. I even published an article about using a custom symbiont to make the mainframe print queues look like a regular VMS printer queue on the VAXen. That was a galaxy long ago and far away. It would be fun to see a working 8200 in SimH, but sounds like a major job reconstructing it. --Gary ___ Simh mailing list Simh@trailing-edge.com http://mailman.trailing-edge.com/mailman/listinfo/simh
Re: [Simh] VAX 8200
> Ethan Dicks (ethan.di...@gmail.com) wrote: >I happen to have one (from when I worked for Jim Ebright). I have a running 8350 as well, should you need a dump of the console media or something. It is, I believe, the physically smallest BI bus VAX, and therefore interesting for those reason. It's the only such machine that I could fit in my garage :-) It's also the only multi-processor VAX system that I have and equally interesting for that reason too. FWIW, I've always wondered if the limitation to two CPUs was purely for testing and support reasons - it doesn't seem that there's any reason why you could not plug in three or even more CPU cards. Bob Armstrong ___ Simh mailing list Simh@trailing-edge.com http://mailman.trailing-edge.com/mailman/listinfo/simh
Re: [Simh] VAX 8200
On Thu, Mar 16, 2017 at 3:37 PM, Bob Supnik wrote: > There's an almost total lack of 8200 (aka V-11 or Scorpio) documentation on > the web. So true. I happen to have one (from when I worked for Jim Ebright). It's the only mid-sized VAX I have plugged in at the moment. > I have chip pictures (http://simh.trailing-edge.com/semi/v11.html), Nice. I can scan my boards if the packaging/heatsinks are interesting enough to capture. > 2. The 8200 has a patchable control store. This was used to avoid updating > the microcode chips (five of them, all VLSI) for every microcode bug. I remember having to update one of my two T1001 boards so I could run them together as a VAX8300 (our box was purchased with a single CPU, then I picked up a second CPU board for ~$100 with some random microcode rev, and got it all working as our first SMP machine). This reminds me I should probably archive my console RX50 media. Nice little machine. For us, it was a nice bump up from our 11/750, but by the time it came along, it was mostly a development machine, so it was pretty much a single-user workstation for me. Our 11/750 was still the general office machine with our productivity apps, e-mail, etc. The 8200 was capable of so much more but its big accomplishment for us was allowing us to make our VAXBI COMBOARD, and for _only_ $13,000! -ethan ___ Simh mailing list Simh@trailing-edge.com http://mailman.trailing-edge.com/mailman/listinfo/simh
[Simh] VAX 8200
There's an almost total lack of 8200 (aka V-11 or Scorpio) documentation on the web. I have chip pictures (http://simh.trailing-edge.com/semi/v11.html), and I think the chip specs (which won't help much) are in my archive at the Computer History Museum. Here are some things to be aware of: 1. The 8200, unlike other mid-range VAXes, does not have a console microprocessor. There is a basic console implemented in the microcode. It can boot a device via "boot block" booting (for example, the console floppy). Thus, it's more like the LSI-11/F-11/J-11 chips, which had a basic console in the microcode. The MicroVAX family dispensed with console processors and console microcode in favor of boot ROMs. 2. The 8200 has a patchable control store. This was used to avoid updating the microcode chips (five of them, all VLSI) for every microcode bug. When the system was finally stable and shaken out, there was enough patch space left to replace the CALL/RET mask processing, which initially used the compact-but-slow MicroVAX II algorithm, with a more 8800-like version based on case fanouts. This need not be simulated, except insofar as boot processing may try to load it. 3. The 8200 floating point chip, which was not optional, is essentially the same as the MicroVAX CPU and has the same POLYx bug. 4. The 8200 series was the only VAX to use the BI as a memory bus. In the 6000 series, the XMI/XMI+ was the memory bus, and the BI was used strictly for IO. I've written to a colleague who ran the microcode project for V-11 to see if he kept any materials, but I'm not holding my breath. ___ Simh mailing list Simh@trailing-edge.com http://mailman.trailing-edge.com/mailman/listinfo/simh
Re: [Simh] Software, firmware, and friends
On 16-Mar-17 15:02, Seth Morabito wrote: > [I seem to have missed the original message from Bob, so replying > via Johnny's message.] > > On 2017-03-12 22:51, Bob Supnik wrote: >> In general, I am no longer a fan of "approximate" simulations. If you >> just use the spec and ignore the implementation, then even if some >> particular test case (VMS Vxyz) works, the next piece of software may >> fail. I've seen this repeatedly - how the initial simulation of the RH >> worked with all DEC operating systems but failed with Unix, because a >> critical screw-up in the interrupt logic wasn't implemented faithfully; >> how the 750 simulation ran VMS but failed with BSD, because the UBA was >> a simple clone of the 780 (it's still wrong in critical aspects, as is >> the RH750); how the MicroVAX II & III/QVSS combo failed with Ultrix, >> because Ultrix cheerfully violates the SRM and the hardware just works. >> I'm still trying to work out the mischief that the SDS 940's tape drive >> perpetrates. The devil is in the details. > This has plagued me continuously while trying (and often failing) to get > the 3B2 simulator working. The lack of documentation from AT&T means I > have had to get at everything via reverse engineering, and that means > that sometimes I must make educated guesses, and sometimes those guesses > are wrong. And other times, even when looking at the real hardware under > a logica analyzer, I may misunderstand what I'm seeing, or make wrong > assumptions about what I'm seeing. It is very frustrating, and slow, and > painful. > > I'm facing a situation now where I believe I am very faithfully > following the microsequences _as described_ in the WE32100 manual, but I > am seeing results that lead me to believe the manual is incorrect, or > more likely incomplete. Or was correct and complete at the time, but not updated (or you don't have the update) for a subsequent engineering change (hardware or firmware revision). Or doesn't describe customer-specific modifications (some of which spread without a formal engineering change). Or correctly and completely described the design, but a bug was too expensive or inconvenient to fix, so software adapted to the broken behavior. And the documentation wasn't changed, or you don't have the update. Or interaction with some other aspect of the system causes behavior that, once you understand it is clearly documented; but by no means obvious from reading one document alone. Many engineering documents of the era described things in detail the way engineers think; boxes and interfaces. Documentation for systems composed of those components often uses abstractions suitable for the intended reader, but that gloss over implementation detail necessary for simulators. Bob has written papers on some of the adventures creating simh; I went on a number of treasure hunts so we could determine how things really worked... Things are rarely as simple as they seem. > (The manual, after all, is targeted at people > trying to write software for the WE32100, not people trying to > implement it, so I can't really blame the authors) > > So, I agree completely. The 3B2 simulator is unfortunately an approximate > simulation, rather than fully faithful to the original. And I am > unlikely to ever know HOW approximate it is! > > -Seth smime.p7s Description: S/MIME Cryptographic Signature ___ Simh mailing list Simh@trailing-edge.com http://mailman.trailing-edge.com/mailman/listinfo/simh
Re: [Simh] Software, firmware, and friends
> On Mar 16, 2017, at 3:02 PM, Seth Morabito wrote: > > ... but I > am seeing results that lead me to believe the manual is incorrect, or > more likely incomplete. (The manual, after all, is targeted at people > trying to write software for the WE32100, not people trying to > implement it, so I can't really blame the authors) Still a manual should fully describe how the machine operates as seen from the programmer's point of view. This sort of thing has been around forever and continues. In recent years I've worked with two different MIPS instruction set SOCs. We nicknamed the manual for the first of those "The Book of Lies" while the second one was called "The Book of Omissions". Fun stuff like not describing accurately how to flush one of the caches to memory. Long ago, an emulator writer in Holland ran into this: Dirk Gruene wrote an emulator for the Electrologica X8, back in 1972. The idea was to help people debug "bare metal" programs. Fortunately, he had the real machine to compare with (in fact, the emulator runs on the real machine, as an Algol program). He describes the oddball undocumented things found at length, fun stuff like address error checking that depends on the address mode used. Or error cases that don't behave the same way every run. It's in CWI report MR141/72, unfortunately in Dutch. paul ___ Simh mailing list Simh@trailing-edge.com http://mailman.trailing-edge.com/mailman/listinfo/simh
Re: [Simh] Software, firmware, and friends
[I seem to have missed the original message from Bob, so replying via Johnny's message.] On 2017-03-12 22:51, Bob Supnik wrote: >In general, I am no longer a fan of "approximate" simulations. If you >just use the spec and ignore the implementation, then even if some >particular test case (VMS Vxyz) works, the next piece of software may >fail. I've seen this repeatedly - how the initial simulation of the RH >worked with all DEC operating systems but failed with Unix, because a >critical screw-up in the interrupt logic wasn't implemented faithfully; >how the 750 simulation ran VMS but failed with BSD, because the UBA was >a simple clone of the 780 (it's still wrong in critical aspects, as is >the RH750); how the MicroVAX II & III/QVSS combo failed with Ultrix, >because Ultrix cheerfully violates the SRM and the hardware just works. >I'm still trying to work out the mischief that the SDS 940's tape drive >perpetrates. The devil is in the details. This has plagued me continuously while trying (and often failing) to get the 3B2 simulator working. The lack of documentation from AT&T means I have had to get at everything via reverse engineering, and that means that sometimes I must make educated guesses, and sometimes those guesses are wrong. And other times, even when looking at the real hardware under a logica analyzer, I may misunderstand what I'm seeing, or make wrong assumptions about what I'm seeing. It is very frustrating, and slow, and painful. I'm facing a situation now where I believe I am very faithfully following the microsequences _as described_ in the WE32100 manual, but I am seeing results that lead me to believe the manual is incorrect, or more likely incomplete. (The manual, after all, is targeted at people trying to write software for the WE32100, not people trying to implement it, so I can't really blame the authors) So, I agree completely. The 3B2 simulator is unfortunately an approximate simulation, rather than fully faithful to the original. And I am unlikely to ever know HOW approximate it is! -Seth -- Seth Morabito w...@loomcom.com ___ Simh mailing list Simh@trailing-edge.com http://mailman.trailing-edge.com/mailman/listinfo/simh
Re: [Simh] EXT :Re: CI Code Released
If you want to run your MV3100 licenses on the SIMH VAX, set the SIMH VAX to be a VAXserver3900 (see SIMH FAQ), which lowers the licensing requirements. OR you can get the VAX Hobbyist licenses which have unlimited license units. Dave -Original Message- From: Simh [mailto:simh-boun...@trailing-edge.com] On Behalf Of Paul (lists) Hardy Sent: Thursday, March 16, 2017 4:09 AM To: 'Matt Burke'; 'Simh Trailing-Edge Mailing List' Subject: EXT :Re: [Simh] CI Code Released Matt Burke said: >> There are more simulations in the pipeline (HSC70, VAX 8200, VAXstation >> 2000, VAXstation 3100...). >> Hopefully I'll get these released soon too. I'm particularly interested in the VAXStation 3100 (and MicroVAX 3100) - I'm trying to ressurect an old LAVC system for history archiving, and the original licences are for 3100s so insufficient units for the MicroVAX 3900 simulation. I'm also very interested in the VAXstation aspects - did you get any further with the QDSS colour graphics emulation? I'd be happy to take part in any testing and debugging. Regards, -- Paul Hardy Email: paul at the paulhardy.net domain, web: www.paulhardy.net ___ Simh mailing list Simh@trailing-edge.com http://mailman.trailing-edge.com/mailman/listinfo/simh ___ Simh mailing list Simh@trailing-edge.com http://mailman.trailing-edge.com/mailman/listinfo/simh
Re: [Simh] CI Code Released
Good. I would like to see HSC70 controller soon. How about QDSS and VCB02 graphics simulation? I would like to see color graphics. For VAX 8200 series, I found some VAXBI devices with hardware registers programming info so far: KDB50 (up to 4 SDI RA disks) DEBNx (Ethernet/Tape drive combo) DBM32 (terminal ports) CIBCI (CI ports). For VAX 8500 to 8800 series (except 8600/8650), same as 82x0/83x0 but you need firmware ROM images for SRM/bootstrap I found KC780 console docs that provides tech docs for front ends to emulate L11-based SRM firmware. Good for multi-core emulation. Keep it up! I have set up Ubuntu (Linux) soon to debug and test. I will clean up my old TS10 emulator for today's compilers. I am still working on my new MSE emulator. I am implementing VAX and PDP10 instruction tables. I am almost done for console/command handlers. Tim -Original Message- From: Simh [mailto:simh-boun...@trailing-edge.com] On Behalf Of Paul (lists) Hardy Sent: Thursday, March 16, 2017 5:09 AM To: 'Matt Burke' ; 'Simh Trailing-Edge Mailing List' Subject: Re: [Simh] CI Code Released Matt Burke said: >> There are more simulations in the pipeline (HSC70, VAX 8200, VAXstation >> 2000, VAXstation 3100...). >> Hopefully I'll get these released soon too. I'm particularly interested in the VAXStation 3100 (and MicroVAX 3100) - I'm trying to ressurect an old LAVC system for history archiving, and the original licences are for 3100s so insufficient units for the MicroVAX 3900 simulation. I'm also very interested in the VAXstation aspects - did you get any further with the QDSS colour graphics emulation? I'd be happy to take part in any testing and debugging. Regards, -- Paul Hardy Email: paul at the paulhardy.net domain, web: www.paulhardy.net ___ Simh mailing list Simh@trailing-edge.com http://mailman.trailing-edge.com/mailman/listinfo/simh ___ Simh mailing list Simh@trailing-edge.com http://mailman.trailing-edge.com/mailman/listinfo/simh
Re: [Simh] CI Code Released
Matt Burke said: >> There are more simulations in the pipeline (HSC70, VAX 8200, VAXstation >> 2000, VAXstation 3100...). >> Hopefully I'll get these released soon too. I'm particularly interested in the VAXStation 3100 (and MicroVAX 3100) - I'm trying to ressurect an old LAVC system for history archiving, and the original licences are for 3100s so insufficient units for the MicroVAX 3900 simulation. I'm also very interested in the VAXstation aspects - did you get any further with the QDSS colour graphics emulation? I'd be happy to take part in any testing and debugging. Regards, -- Paul Hardy Email: paul at the paulhardy.net domain, web: www.paulhardy.net ___ Simh mailing list Simh@trailing-edge.com http://mailman.trailing-edge.com/mailman/listinfo/simh
