Re: [SLUG] sip soft phone ? sipura voip ?

[Peter Hardy]

On Thu, 2006-03-23 at 18:03 +1100, Christopher Vance wrote:
> On Thu, Mar 23, 2006 at 04:55:32PM +1100, Peter Hardy wrote:
> >I've got a Sipura 3000 on my test bench, and am running a Sipura 2000 at 
> >home. I've noticed the 2000 can take a *very* long time (read: hours) to 
> >re-register if your internet connection drops out, which may just be a 
> 
> Hmm.  Does the 3000 suffer the same way?

Don't know yet. I've only had it since Monday. :-)

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Re: [SLUG] Fedora Core 5

[Bret Comstock Waldow]

On Thu, 23 Mar 2006 17:28, tuxta2 wrote:

> I find your comments interesting and thought provoking, however I
> believe what you read was not what I wrote.

My apologies for that.  I was indeed writing to the "Royal" you - and not you 
personally.  I was writing to the people who are thinking they are the SLUG, 
and especially the ones who want to constrain others.  I wanted them all to 
think about this.

They didn't write the software they are using as the basis for their 
organization and their claim to authority.  (Well, maybe some of them did - 
but then they GPL'd it.)  I hadn't thought this through myself, but I'll have 
it in mind from now on.

Regards,
Bret


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Re: [SLUG] sip soft phone ? sipura voip ?

[Christopher Vance]

On Thu, Mar 23, 2006 at 04:55:32PM +1100, Peter Hardy wrote:
I've got a Sipura 3000 on my test bench, and am running a Sipura 2000 at 
home. I've noticed the 2000 can take a *very* long time (read: hours) to 
re-register if your internet connection drops out, which may just be a 


Hmm.  Does the 3000 suffer the same way?

configuration issue or even a dodgy VoIP provider (I work for a VoIP 
provider - I'm allowed to be snobbish about the others ;-). But other 
than that they're fairly reliable little units. And yeah, I've had it 
registering and passing traffic through Asterisk without any problems.


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Re: [SLUG] sip soft phone ? sipura voip ?

[Christopher Vance]

On Thu, Mar 23, 2006 at 03:56:34PM +1100, Voytek Eymont wrote:

I do. now that I have a VOIP phone, my VOIP devoid friends won't be able
to phone me unless they get a sip (soft) phone (or I connect my VOIP to
PSTN)


VOIP-VOIP requires at least one of you can find the other
network-wise.

VOIP-PSTN can be done for about $10/month.  Maybe less.


a while back someone here was recomending some sip soft phones, I'm
curious what's the latest recomendation on that


My experience with linphone is not positive, but that might have been
due to an unsatisfied 'everything is Linux' assumption.


Sipura 3000 is a hardware device that allows you to hook up a normal


That's the device Engin use for their series 2.


yes, I got one today (and, not really sure what to do with it)

I was curious what other users' use, if anything, for soho use,
specifically, should I be looking at Asterisk, or Asterisk-at-home ?


I'm using Asterisk now with a couple of SIP phones, and will be adding
my 3000 when it arrives.  I have no experience with [EMAIL PROTECTED], so can't
compare.

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Re: [SLUG] sip soft phone ? sipura voip ?

[Christopher Vance]

On Thu, Mar 23, 2006 at 03:27:51PM +1100, Voytek Eymont wrote:

any Sipura 3000 users ?: should I be looking at Asterisk ? Asterisk at
home ? to run with Sipura ?


Mine is on order.  I plan to hook it into my Asterisk.

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Re: [SLUG] sip soft phone ? sipura voip ?

[Peter Hardy]

Voytek Eymont wrote:

what are current recommendations for a soft sip phone ?
  


I'm a fan of linphone. It's just worked in all the configurations I've 
tried. My last ubuntu update included a package called Ekiga, which 
looks to be even simpler to use, but I haven't had a chance to stretch 
its legs yet.


If you trawl through the depths of the "ubuntu/debian" thread from a few 
days ago you'll come across people talking about their experience with a 
few different soft phones.


And, if you're looking for a Windows client, then X-Lite is pretty good, 
despite its nasty interface. They have a Linux client as well, but I'm 
not sure I'd bother when there's a wealth of prettier and more 
environmentally sound FOSS packages.



any Sipura 3000 users ?: should I be looking at Asterisk ? Asterisk at
home ? to run with Sipura ?
  


I've got a Sipura 3000 on my test bench, and am running a Sipura 2000 at 
home. I've noticed the 2000 can take a *very* long time (read: hours) to 
re-register if your internet connection drops out, which may just be a 
configuration issue or even a dodgy VoIP provider (I work for a VoIP 
provider - I'm allowed to be snobbish about the others ;-). But other 
than that they're fairly reliable little units. And yeah, I've had it 
registering and passing traffic through Asterisk without any problems.


As far as Asterisk vs. [EMAIL PROTECTED], they're both exactly the same under the 
hood. I'd go with [EMAIL PROTECTED], just for the easier to manage interface. Either 
way, I can highly recommend getting your hands on a copy of the O'Reilly 
book on Asterisk. It's a pretty good reference, and it's been released 
under a creative commons licence - google will find you a PDF.


Cheers,
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RE: [SLUG] daylight saving patch for redhat 7.3

[Bai, Junmin]

Thanks Matthew, I did it.

Junmin

-Original Message-
From: Matthew Hannigan [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Thursday, 23 March 2006 4:48 PM
To: Bai, Junmin
Cc: slug@slug.org.au
Subject: Re: [SLUG] daylight saving patch for redhat 7.3

On Thu, Mar 23, 2006 at 03:44:56PM +1100, Bai, Junmin wrote:
>
> Thanks Matthew for your reply which gave me more idea about it. Redhat
> is slightly different from Debian. Could you send me compiled zoneinfo
> since it's platform and architecture independent?

My zoneinfo dir is 10Mb; the raw original tzdata file
is less than 150k.

Here's a quick 'n' dirty procedure, assuming zoneinfo
is in the same place in 7.3 as fedora4.

You might want to back up your zoneinfo first with
sudo cp -a  /usr/share/zoneinfo /usr/share/zoneinfo.orig


wget ftp://elsie.nci.nih.gov/pub/tzdata2006b.tar.gz
tar zxf tzdata2006b.tar.gz
sudo zic australasia


Matt





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Re: [SLUG] daylight saving patch for redhat 7.3

[Matthew Hannigan]

On Thu, Mar 23, 2006 at 03:44:56PM +1100, Bai, Junmin wrote:
> 
> Thanks Matthew for your reply which gave me more idea about it. Redhat
> is slightly different from Debian. Could you send me compiled zoneinfo
> since it's platform and architecture independent?

My zoneinfo dir is 10Mb; the raw original tzdata file 
is less than 150k.

Here's a quick 'n' dirty procedure, assuming zoneinfo
is in the same place in 7.3 as fedora4.

You might want to back up your zoneinfo first with
sudo cp -a  /usr/share/zoneinfo /usr/share/zoneinfo.orig


wget ftp://elsie.nci.nih.gov/pub/tzdata2006b.tar.gz
tar zxf tzdata2006b.tar.gz
sudo zic australasia


Matt


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Re: [SLUG] Fedora Core 5

[tuxta2]

Bret Comstock Waldow wrote:


On Thu, 23 Mar 2006 06:19, tuxta2 wrote:

 


Rather than try and decide who is right and who is wrong on this issue,
why don't we just understand that opinions vary, and why don't we find a
term that essentially means the same thing, but does not have the
insulting effect?
   



Implicit in this is that you must decide upon a goal, about which you can then 
hopefully agree on a method of attaining (e.g. we can say RTFM or we can't 
say RTFM).


 

I find your comments interesting and thought provoking, however I 
believe what you read was not what I wrote.
In the spirit of harmony and respect, we ask people to be non offensive 
as much as possible.
I beleive even the great RMS would agree that where possible, its nice 
to be nice when you are with nice people.


Tuxta

( my last comments on this subject )
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Re: [SLUG] sip soft phone ? sipura voip ?

[Voytek Eymont]

On Thu, March 23, 2006 3:47 pm, Michael Fox wrote:
> On 3/23/06, Voytek Eymont <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> You do realise soft sip phone (means Software SIP phone). ie. you dont
> need hardware but merely a software SIP phone to make calls with a SIP
> provider.

I do. now that I have a VOIP phone, my VOIP devoid friends won't be able
to phone me unless they get a sip (soft) phone (or I connect my VOIP to
PSTN)

a while back someone here was recomending some sip soft phones, I'm
curious what's the latest recomendation on that

> Sipura 3000 is a hardware device that allows you to hook up a normal

yes, I got one today (and, not really sure what to do with it)

I was curious what other users' use, if anything, for soho use,
specifically, should I be looking at Asterisk, or Asterisk-at-home ?

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Re: [SLUG] sip soft phone ? sipura voip ?

[Michael Fox]

On 3/23/06, Voytek Eymont <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> what are current recommendations for a soft sip phone ?
>
> any Sipura 3000 users ?: should I be looking at Asterisk ? Asterisk at
> home ? to run with Sipura ?


You do realise soft sip phone (means Software SIP phone). ie. you dont
need hardware but merely a software SIP phone to make calls with a SIP
provider.

Sipura 3000 is a hardware device that allows you to hook up a normal
phone to be used as a hardware SIP phone. I believe the Sipura has 2
such ports, and then has another port so that it can hook upto your
existing phone line. Of course it also has a LAN port. Then you can
have dial plans that tells the 2 handsets connected on how to dial. Do
I dial out the telstra line or via the SIP providers over ethernet
link to make certain calls.

You dont need Asterisk, but merely a SIP provider, however. If you do
have Asterisk, your asterisk box can use the Sipura 3000 and its
connected phones as extensions and what not.

Hope that gives you a bit of background. Someone can expand further I am sure.
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RE: [SLUG] daylight saving patch for redhat 7.3

[Bai, Junmin]

Thanks Matthew for your reply which gave me more idea about it. Redhat
is slightly different from Debian. Could you send me compiled zoneinfo
since it's platform and architecture independent?

Junmin

-Original Message-
From: Matthew Hannigan [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Thursday, 23 March 2006 3:07 PM
To: Bai, Junmin
Cc: slug@slug.org.au
Subject: Re: [SLUG] daylight saving patch for redhat 7.3

On Thu, Mar 23, 2006 at 02:22:37PM +1100, Bai, Junmin wrote:
>
> I have a redhat linux 7.3.  Because of commonwealth game of 2006, we
> need a patch for redhat 7.3 to solve the timezone problem. Does anyone
> know this patch.

Do you do updates with yum through fedoralegacy.org?
Maybe they patched it already.  (I had a quick look
but couldn't see any evidence that they had)

Check with:

# zdump -c 2007 -v Australia/Sydney|grep 2006

You should get

Australia/Sydney  Sat Apr  1 15:59:59 2006 UTC = Sun Apr  2
02:59:59 2006 EST isdst=1 gmtoff=39600
Australia/Sydney  Sat Apr  1 16:00:00 2006 UTC = Sun Apr  2
02:00:00 2006 EST isdst=0 gmtoff=36000
Australia/Sydney  Sat Oct 28 15:59:59 2006 UTC = Sun Oct 29
01:59:59 2006 EST isdst=0 gmtoff=36000
Australia/Sydney  Sat Oct 28 16:00:00 2006 UTC = Sun Oct 29
03:00:00 2006 EST isdst=1 gmtoff=39600

if it's correct.

If it's not, get back to us. The fix will be similar to that
posted for debian mentioned in earlier mail to this list.
(http://wiki.debian.org/TimeZoneChanges)

Matt





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[SLUG] sip soft phone ? sipura voip ?

[Voytek Eymont]

what are current recommendations for a soft sip phone ?

any Sipura 3000 users ?: should I be looking at Asterisk ? Asterisk at
home ? to run with Sipura ?



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Re: [SLUG] daylight saving patch for redhat 7.3

[Matthew Hannigan]

On Thu, Mar 23, 2006 at 02:22:37PM +1100, Bai, Junmin wrote:
> 
> I have a redhat linux 7.3.  Because of commonwealth game of 2006, we
> need a patch for redhat 7.3 to solve the timezone problem. Does anyone
> know this patch.

Do you do updates with yum through fedoralegacy.org?
Maybe they patched it already.  (I had a quick look
but couldn't see any evidence that they had)

Check with:

# zdump -c 2007 -v Australia/Sydney|grep 2006

You should get 

Australia/Sydney  Sat Apr  1 15:59:59 2006 UTC = Sun Apr  2 02:59:59 
2006 EST isdst=1 gmtoff=39600
Australia/Sydney  Sat Apr  1 16:00:00 2006 UTC = Sun Apr  2 02:00:00 
2006 EST isdst=0 gmtoff=36000
Australia/Sydney  Sat Oct 28 15:59:59 2006 UTC = Sun Oct 29 01:59:59 
2006 EST isdst=0 gmtoff=36000
Australia/Sydney  Sat Oct 28 16:00:00 2006 UTC = Sun Oct 29 03:00:00 
2006 EST isdst=1 gmtoff=39600

if it's correct.

If it's not, get back to us. The fix will be similar to that
posted for debian mentioned in earlier mail to this list.
(http://wiki.debian.org/TimeZoneChanges)

Matt


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[SLUG] Re: Sound Recording - not

[Bruce Badger]

Apologies for the breach of netiquette in replying to myself, but I
have news of progress.  Not much, but some.

Using Knoppix 4 I can get sound recording applications to record sound
from the built-in mic on my Thinkpad.  So, the hardware is fine.

I have recording working on another sarge box here, so I can see that
the recording apps do work under sarge (not too big a surprise).

... but I'm still stumped trying to get (e.g.) Audacity (thanks James)
recording from the mic on my Thinkpad.  I do hear sounds from the mic
on the speaker (as I do when under Knoppix, and on the other box).  I
can control the volume of the mic on the Thinkpad and can mute it
through the Gnome volume control.  But recording apps get nothing.

I'd be happy to R an FM or a troubleshooting guide if someone could
point me to one.  I have Googled, but have not found anything that has
helped so far.

Many thanks.
   Bruce
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[SLUG] daylight saving patch for redhat 7.3

[Bai, Junmin]

Hi everyone

 

I have a redhat linux 7.3.  Because of
commonwealth game of 2006, we need a patch for redhat 7.3 to solve the timezone
problem. Does anyone know this patch.

 

Cheers

Junmin








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Re: [SLUG] Debian Timezone patch?

[tone]

On Thu, 2006-03-23 at 11:19 +1100, Terry Collins wrote:
> > "How do I patch a debian box with the new timezone data
> for the commonwealth games?

There's some good info here about what to do here:

http://wiki.debian.org/TimeZoneChanges


although after going through that you should check to see
if /etc/localtime is a softlink to the appropriate zoneinfo file or if
it's a copy.. this didn't seem to be the case everywhere for some
reason :(

> Might require a non-reboot option.

this will not require a reboot

> 
> Any ideas?
> 
> 
> -- 
>Terry Collins {:-)}}}
>email: terryc at woa.com.au  www: http://www.woa.com.au
>Wombat Outdoor Adventures 
> 
>  "Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little
>   security will deserve neither and lose both." Benjamin Franklin

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Re: [SLUG] Bigpond EVDO service & Linux

[Luke Yelavich]

On Thu, Mar 23, 2006 at 12:19:22PM EST, Howard Lowndes wrote:
> Does anyone know of any Linux drivers to suit Bigpond's EVDO service.

I remember responding to someone else about this connection late last 
year, Oct/Dec timeframe. CHeck the archives as I can't exactly remember 
what I stated, but it certainly can be done, and no new drivers are 
necessary, just a recent kernel with ACM modem support I think.

hth
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[SLUG] Bigpond EVDO service & Linux

[Howard Lowndes]

Does anyone know of any Linux drivers to suit Bigpond's EVDO service.
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Re: [SLUG] Fedora Core 5

[Bret Comstock Waldow]

On Thu, 23 Mar 2006 06:19, tuxta2 wrote:

> Rather than try and decide who is right and who is wrong on this issue,
> why don't we just understand that opinions vary, and why don't we find a
> term that essentially means the same thing, but does not have the
> insulting effect?

Implicit in this is that you must decide upon a goal, about which you can then 
hopefully agree on a method of attaining (e.g. we can say RTFM or we can't 
say RTFM).

Then you have to agree to enforce the decision in this context.

Then you have to decide to exclude people who don't agree with either the goal 
or the approach to attaining it.

Then you have to decide how to sanction people who don't act in accordance 
with your choice.


Free Software is not Open Source Software.  While they have some aspects in 
common, they are fundamentally opposed in others.

OSS allows proprietary code - Free Software is deliberately opposed to it.  FS 
acknowledges the existence of proprietary code, but works to supplant it's 
influence by providing a permanent alternative.

OSS is code censorship - you can read my ideas (source code), but you can't 
use them (my copyright and often an exclusionary license).

FS attempts to eliminate all possible censorship - no one can ever lock this 
code up again.  No one can ever tell you you can't write this (my copyright, 
enforceable in court, and a license that allows anyone to use it, also 
enforceable in court, as long as any copyright law is enforceable in court).

GNU/Linux is released under the GPL - it is totally Free Software, and many of 
the packages commonly used with GNU/Linux (which is just the kernel) are also 
GPL.  Some are OSS.  But Linux itself is Free Software - enforced in court, 
if necessary.

Linus Torvalds is neither unconscious nor stupid.

So, is this a Linux user's group?  Is it just a "I want my software for no $$" 
group?

The hard bit about Freedom is giving it to others, even when you don't like 
what they are doing.  The hard bit about Freedom is NOT controlling others.

Freedom != 0$

I wonder if people do what they say.  I like to note how well they keep to 
their principles.

Yes, you can decide to have an association with these rules or those rules or 
some other rules.  But are you sure the rules you're thinking of are really 
in the spirit of Free Software?  LInux is not Open Source - it's Free 
Software, and consciously so, for a purpose.  Is this really a GNU/Linux 
user's group?

Should you call this the Sydney Open Source Software Group or the Sydney 
Alternative Software User's Group, but leave 'LUG' for people who know and 
respect that GNU/Linux is GPL Free Software, not Open Source, and opposed to 
censorship in it's intent?  Are you flying under false colors?

I expect any number of justifications in response.

This is responding to the list - responses go to the list.  Do not send mail 
to me directly.

Regards,
Bret


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[SLUG] Debian Timezone patch?

[Terry Collins]

> "How do I patch a debian box with the new timezone data
for the commonwealth games?

Might require a non-reboot option.

Any ideas?


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Re: [SLUG] Filtering out robots

[Peter Hardy]

Peter Chubb wrote:

How can I easily filter out all the 'bots and get an estimate of how
many *real* people are using the website?  It used to be relatively
easy when there were fewer search engines, but now there seem to be dozens.
  


You need to add the appropriate user agents to the HideAgent setting in 
/etc/webalizer.conf . That'll keep the user agents from turning up in 
the listings, but the traffic they generate will still be added in. 
Webalizer also has a GroupAgent thing, that should let you lump all the 
search engines in to one entry in your list. Google should turn up some 
recipes for it.


I'm not sure if that fits your definition of "simple". ;-) But it's the 
only way I know how to do it.


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Re: [SLUG] Filtering out robots

[Dean Hamstead]

you should be able to filter out based on agent, depends how you are 
logging.


i use mod_log_sql to log accesses to mysql (rather than to files)
it serves to keep all the data in once place, also making it easy
to dump out and bzip up for archiving. it also means you can use
sql to crunch out custom stats really quickly. that or a little perl
and its done.

the down side is, awstats and other things dont seem to be able to
feed straight from mod_log_sql. modlogan does, but its now defunct
and i cant get it to work on non-3306 port or non /tmp/mysql.sock
. bah.

please note: mod_log_sql will feed into more databases than just
mysql. also note, its worth running a second instance of mysql
just for the logs, *especially* if you are like myself and
run replication across your entire 'application' mysql database.

if you are using awstats or something similar, you should be able
to filter out the agent.

Dean

Peter Chubb wrote:

"Dean" == Dean Hamstead <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:


Dean> are you meaning in your logs or actually stopping/reducing the
Dean> webbots?  Dean

I mean filtering the logs so I can see who's using the website.  I'm
not particularly concerned with stopping the robots, but continued funding to
keep the site up depends partly on showing that real people use the site.


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RE: [SLUG] Filtering out robots

[Roger Barnes]

> Dean> are you meaning in your logs or actually stopping/reducing the 
> Dean> webbots?  Dean
> 
> I mean filtering the logs so I can see who's using the 
> website.  I'm not particularly concerned with stopping the 
> robots, but continued funding to keep the site up depends 
> partly on showing that real people use the site.

I'm not sure about webalizer, but Awstats does this out of the box.

HTH,
- Rog

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Re: [SLUG] Filtering out robots

[Peter Chubb]

> "Dean" == Dean Hamstead <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

Dean> are you meaning in your logs or actually stopping/reducing the
Dean> webbots?  Dean

I mean filtering the logs so I can see who's using the website.  I'm
not particularly concerned with stopping the robots, but continued funding to
keep the site up depends partly on showing that real people use the site.
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RE: [SLUG] RTFM is OK if done properly

[Beav Petrie]

David <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> >I don't mind being told to RTFM as long as I'm told where
> >to FIND the manual.
> >
> >That's not as easy for a newbie as you might think.
> >
> >Google is my friend, but only if I know what question to
> >ask. For that, I turn to SLUG.

I don't mind either.

I see RTFM many times on lists services.

Others don't mine too 'cause nobody seems to abuse
others specially on a personal level. Seems different on
this list. A select few are doing this, it appears, I must add.

It's a pity as there are many good people in SLUG. I know
this 'cause I posted a few times and got positive responses
from many people that got me through my home work. Some
even emailed me offline with their help. (One help me offline with
great C codes. I think he is a Dr. Professor from one Uni. Won't
identify him.). Great opportunity to thank him if he's reading this.

Thanks SLUG.

Beav
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Re: [SLUG] Filtering out robots

[Dean Hamstead]

are you meaning in your logs or actually stopping/reducing the webbots?

Dean

Peter Chubb wrote:

Hi,
I'm looking at my website logs (using the webalizer package) and
most of the hits seem to be some sort of robot (Google tops the bill
at 24% of the hits,  9.7Gbytes downloaded this month so far... but
then we see them as the chief external referring website as well)


How can I easily filter out all the 'bots and get an estimate of how
many *real* people are using the website?  It used to be relatively
easy when there were fewer search engines, but now there seem to be dozens.




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Re: [SLUG] Filtering out robots

[James Purser]

> Hi,
>   I'm looking at my website logs (using the webalizer package) and
> most of the hits seem to be some sort of robot (Google tops the bill
> at 24% of the hits,  9.7Gbytes downloaded this month so far... but
> then we see them as the chief external referring website as well)
>
>
> How can I easily filter out all the 'bots and get an estimate of how
> many *real* people are using the website?  It used to be relatively
> easy when there were fewer search engines, but now there seem to be
> dozens.
>
>

robots.txt is your friend here. Gives you a lot of control over the bots
that adhere to the standard.

Heres a good link to peruse for info on robots.txt

http://www.robotstxt.org/wc/robots.html

Of course this only affects those bots that recognise robots.txt. There
are some that are either broken or deliberately ignore the file.

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[SLUG] Filtering out robots

[Peter Chubb]

Hi,
I'm looking at my website logs (using the webalizer package) and
most of the hits seem to be some sort of robot (Google tops the bill
at 24% of the hits,  9.7Gbytes downloaded this month so far... but
then we see them as the chief external referring website as well)


How can I easily filter out all the 'bots and get an estimate of how
many *real* people are using the website?  It used to be relatively
easy when there were fewer search engines, but now there seem to be dozens.


-- 
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Re: [SLUG] RTFM is OK if done properly

[cmyers]

I have ignored this thread due to the 'personality' clashes that have been
going on. But reading this response has spurred me to reply.

I couldnt agree more, infact, as a linux n00b I do RTFM but at times due
to the complexity of linux AND being spoon fed my microshaft for so many
years its hard to understand TFM. And a community such as this should
encourage openess and sharing of problems and ideas. Otherwise SLUG should
just change their homepage to google.com and get over it.

If linux is to prosper and grow we need to be careful not to shoot people
down for asking a question, and learn to be more tolerant with questions
being asked by people who MAY have RTFM but may just need clarification of
their problem.

Mind you I have not come accross this as yet in SLUG personally. I have
found that most people are willing to help.

Just my thoughts..


> I don't mind being told to RTFM[1] as long as I'm told where
> to FIND the manual.
>
> That's not as easy for a newbie as you might think.
>
> Google is my friend, but only if I know what question to
> ask. For that, I turn to SLUG.
>
> [1] Read The Found Manual
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>


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[SLUG] RTFM is OK if done properly

[David]

I don't mind being told to RTFM[1] as long as I'm told where 
to FIND the manual.

That's not as easy for a newbie as you might think.

Google is my friend, but only if I know what question to
ask. For that, I turn to SLUG.

[1] Read The Found Manual
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Re: [SLUG] Fedora Core 5

[tuxta2]

There really doesn't need to be another post on this discussion, but I 
just cant help myself, please feel free to delete this email without 
reading any further ...


Still here? okay then here goes.

Even from very early on in my journey to Linux enlightenment, (not too 
long ago) I have always found the response RTFM  very comical, most of 
the time my response was to laugh and say - "heh, yeah, you caught me 
out, I should have tried the man page but I was too lazy" or "wow, that 
person is getting really annoyed because I am having problems, that's 
really funny, they need to chill out".


I welcome RTFM when it is appropriate. If the answer is clearly 
documented, then in my opinion, I deserve to be told not to be lazy or 
to act defenceless. HOWEVER...
I have not used RTFM on a mailing list or anywhere else, I have once 
used RTM. Although I do not have any problem with RTFM, I realise many 
people would, and as my intent is not to offend some one, I do not use 
the term. It is obvious that there ARE people on this list that are 
offended by the term, and whether half, a majority or all but a couple 
of people are happy with the term, the fact remains that there are 
people who will be offended.

SO ..
Rather than try and decide who is right and who is wrong on this issue, 
why don't we just understand that opinions vary, and why don't we find a 
term that essentially means the same thing, but does not have the 
insulting effect?  For example,  use simply "You can find the answer if 
you RTM, man grep" in the case of an obvious grep question. If needs be 
have a definition of RTM somewhere on the SLUG website that can be 
referred to for those unaware of RTM's meaning. If worded correctly, 
people will understand RTM is meant to help them not insult them. The 
day I learnt to find answers for myself, was the day I leapt forward in 
knowledge.
Is that a fair assessment? Can we use RTM if done in a nice way so that 
people can learn to learn?


For the record, I believe most newbies would feel rejected if told to 
RTFM, mainly because a lot of the time newbies don't even know there IS 
a manual, and I can assure you, most newbies feel that they are already 
wasting your time, so reminding them of this point makes them feel even 
more useless.


My 2c (and then some)

Tuxta
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Re: [SLUG] Committee Nomination

[Scott Sinclair]

Chris Deigan wrote:

I'd like to nominate Scott Sinclair (also known to some as praetorian)
for the position of secretary.



Let's be daring, let's be wild.

I accept.

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Re: Community building and SLUG love [Was: [SLUG] Fedora Core 5]

[Beren James Sanders]

Why can't people just get along?  It saddens my heart to see this kind
of behaviour on a mailing list devoted to something which to some
people is a real symbol for the potential advancement of humanity.

There are too many problems in the world beyond our control to be
creating more issues and ill-will between people.  As a lurker on this
list, I just see a bunch of opinionated posts without a real desire
to accomodate alternative perspectives.  What hope is there for the
world when some differences in opinions about an issue as
insignificant in the scheme of things as the use of the term `RTFM'
causes such nastiness?

I just want to say that all of this had the opposite effect of
``making my day''.  Reading this thread was a waste of 5 minutes of my
life and I'm now taking away another minute from it to write this
email.

regards,
Beren Sanders
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[SLUG] Australian Ubuntu Local Community Team

[Jeff Waugh]

Good morning freedom lovers!

Today we are very pleased to announce the formation of the Australian Ubuntu
Local Community Team. We're working on distributing, advertising and demoing
Ubuntu within Australia, focusing on schools, business and home users.

A number of communications tools have been established for discussion about
local issues and projects:

 Mail list: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Subscribe: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-au
  IRC chat: #ubuntu-au on irc.freenode.net

Please check our team's wiki page for more info:

  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/AustralianTeam

Thanks,

  (I figured this may be of interest to linux-aus folks and my LUG comrades
  here in Sydney - please pass it on to other LUGs as you see fit!)

- Jeff

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[SLUG] RTFM etc

[linley caetan]

i heave sigh as I write this on the and wonder why email discussion lists can descend so easily into shouting matches.My wife siobhan works as a Montessori teacher with 6-9 year old children. They are able to calmy listen to each others opinions and treat each other with respect.I bridge the Linux/windows Mac OS X  and yes Unix  worlds. I work with proffessionals creating great work on all these platforms. The key to us working together is that we and our customers and the investors are after results.In every interaction I have with a customer or colleague I ask: How can we do this better?How can we innovate?Who do I/we know that can guide us towards solving/ creating/being better at what we do.That is what drives us. I am not interested in being "right".I am interested in Excellence.Microsoft have smart people who are driven by excellence.Apple have the same.Xerox, EMC, Sun, Google.Can we say the same for ourselves in the
 FOSS world?
		On Yahoo!7 
 
Messenger: Make free PC-to-PC calls to your friends overseas. 
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Re: [SLUG] Fedora Core 5

[Ken Wilson]

OK end of the day, everyone who wants to has had their say, opposing 
sides are unlikely to change their views, or get the last word in, time 
to stop.

Ken
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Re: Community building and SLUG love [Was: [SLUG] Fedora Core 5]

[Robert Collins]

On Wed, 2006-03-22 at 20:34 +1100, Jeff Waugh wrote:
...
> Maybe it's just four letters. But maybe it means a whole lot more.


I think the community building aspect is what disturbs me about these
mega oplamera threads. If it turns *me* off from reading the list, what
is it doing to folk with less investment in the community?

Rob


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Re: [SLUG] Fedora Core 5

[Philip Greggs]

On 3/22/06, Matthew Hannigan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On Wed, Mar 22, 2006 at 07:31:07PM +1100, Philip Greggs wrote:
> >
> > I'm not subscribed to this list but followed the post on the WEB and
> > I believe the RTFM retort was appropriate in the context.
>
> Then you're an idiot, because the question was rhetorical.
>

I'm certainly not an idiot.

I'm not subscribed to SLUG but I'm subscribed to CLUG.

I've posted to SLUG in the past and O Plameras had helped me
in a very professional way.  So, all this talk that there is malice
in his RTFM retort  is rubbish in my view.

I only hope he continues to help others in Slug because I find his postings
honest, helpful, and direct to the point.
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Re: Not the place for RTFM [Was: [SLUG] Fedora Core 5]

[Bret Comstock Waldow]

On Wed, 22 Mar 2006 21:01, Jeff Waugh wrote:
> 
>
> > Nothing I read in his messages gave me reason to know that this was
> > anything more official than a strongly held personal opinion, used as an
> > attack.
> >
> > As for the committee's opinion, what about the membership's?  Was this
> > voted on?  That would be legitimate - but you haven't mentioned that,
> > either, I notice.
>
> There have been long discussions about this in the past. You can see the
> list guidelines here:

And after several messages, this is the first time you've provided this 
pointer.  Perhaps it should have been the first thing?

However...

>
>   http://www.slug.org.au/faq/mailinglists.html#q8
>
> > It might be so, but no one is saying that, so I'll admit I'm wondering a
> > bit about the culture of this LUG now.
>
> Suggestions of positivity cause you to wonder? :-)

I've looked back over the messages, and the ones that gave me pause weren't 
yours.  My apologies.

Regards,
Bret


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Community building and SLUG love [Was: [SLUG] Fedora Core 5]

[Jeff Waugh]

> You can say how it is for you as much as you like - but you are definitely
> not speaking for everyone, and I'm glad you're not speaking for most of
> the people in my life.

I do not purport to speak for everyone, despite hand-waving accusations to
the contrary. However, I *am* speaking for the people who have left SLUG
mailing lists in the past due to technocratic elitist attitudes, rudeness,
posturing, teasing, sexism, etc., etc. I do speak from experience running
the LUG and associating with its core cultural base. I do speak with a good
degree of understanding of past and current leadership groups. I also speak
from experience as a newbie and outsider to the SLUG culture (a fairly long
time ago). If anything, I'm reiterating common themes and values from this
list built over many years, by many people.

To give you some context, I swear a lot. Probably too much. So if you think
that this attitude to the "RTFM" thing comes from some kind of puritanism,
you're really barking up the wrong tree. It comes from community building.
You can't build a positive community by teaching negative behaviour. That's
one of the coolest things about SLUG - it is, on the whole, a very positive
place to play, learn, meet people, etc.

So when I read "RTFM", it has no discernable impact on *me*. But it makes me
think about everyone else reading it, and what that behaviour says about our
group. We're better than that, we're more helpful than that, and we've got a
heck of a lot more knowledge to share than that.

Forget about what "RTFM" makes *you* feel like. Think about what it feels
like for a totally new person in our community, itching to try Linux, learn
about it, maybe someone who knows it backwards but wants to learn how to
contribute. How useful is the expression then? Is it encouraging? Would it
make that person feel like participating further? Would they want to come to
SLUG in person?

Think about the number of people who started out as total newbies in SLUG,
who've gone on to make a big difference in the Free Software world. There
are a surprising number of them. This is a big LUG - one of the best in the
world (no shit, I've been to many). Culture has a lot to do with that. Not
just because those people have felt welcome, but because they've learned how
to participate in online communities in a productive way.

Maybe it's just four letters. But maybe it means a whole lot more.

- Jeff

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Re: [SLUG] Fedora Core 5

[Matthew Hannigan]

On Wed, Mar 22, 2006 at 08:03:22PM +1100, Jeff Waugh wrote:
> 
> 
> > On Wed, Mar 22, 2006 at 07:31:07PM +1100, Philip Greggs wrote:
> > > I'm not subscribed to this list but followed the post on the WEB and I
> > > believe the RTFM retort was appropriate in the context.
> > 
> > Then you're an idiot, because the question was rhetorical.
> 
> Calling people idiots on the list is worse than RTFM. This is possibly the
> worst thread you could have picked for it, too. ;-)

Yeah, fair enough.

Philip, sorry.

I guess I was annoyed at being misinterpreted.
And by someone who was not previously involved in the
discussion.


I promise not to be subtle / socratic in future.

Matt

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Re: FW: [SLUG] Fedora Core 5

[Bret Comstock Waldow]

On Wed, 22 Mar 2006 20:10, Jeff Waugh wrote:

> Much of the friendliness part of it comes from phrasing and
> manner. "RTFM" is not friendly or helpful.
>
> Directing someone towards relevant documentation is a really good way of
> helping. Telling them to read the fucking manual [1] is insulting.

No, it's not.

I will accept you read it that way.  I'll accept that some other people read 
it that way.

I don't accept that it is.  That is in the mind of the reader.  It can be 
intended that way, but it isn't inherently intended that way.

If you can't see that, I see a fixation in your viewpoint, like someone who 
can't accept anyone saying 'damn' in public.  But I don't see it's inherent 
to the term.

I have no difficulty sharing the joke in RTFM with my friends, including the 
non-computer savvy ones.  There's an aspect of personal self-comfort and 
maturity that allows people to not take everything personally - I'm happy to 
say I have friends like this.

You can say how it is for you as much as you like - but you are definitely not 
speaking for everyone, and I'm glad you're not speaking for most of the 
people in my life.

I find it is legitimate and worthwhile to expect people to grow into 
tolerance, rather than downsize my own approach to match the least common 
denominator - and stay there.

You being insulted is not the same as everyone being insulted - you aren't 
that universal.  My own friends show me this daily.

Regard,
Bret


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Re: [SLUG] Fedora Core 5

[Jeff Waugh]

> On Wed, Mar 22, 2006 at 07:31:07PM +1100, Philip Greggs wrote:
> > I'm not subscribed to this list but followed the post on the WEB and I
> > believe the RTFM retort was appropriate in the context.
> 
> Then you're an idiot, because the question was rhetorical.

Calling people idiots on the list is worse than RTFM. This is possibly the
worst thread you could have picked for it, too. ;-)

- Jeff

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Re: Not the place for RTFM [Was: [SLUG] Fedora Core 5]

[Jeff Waugh]

> Nothing I read in his messages gave me reason to know that this was
> anything more official than a strongly held personal opinion, used as an
> attack.
> 
> As for the committee's opinion, what about the membership's?  Was this
> voted on?  That would be legitimate - but you haven't mentioned that,
> either, I notice.

There have been long discussions about this in the past. You can see the
list guidelines here:

  http://www.slug.org.au/faq/mailinglists.html#q8

> It might be so, but no one is saying that, so I'll admit I'm wondering a
> bit about the culture of this LUG now.

Suggestions of positivity cause you to wonder? :-)

- Jeff

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Re: Not the place for RTFM [Was: [SLUG] Fedora Core 5]

[Bret Comstock Waldow]

On Wed, 22 Mar 2006 19:44, Lindsay Holmwood wrote:
> On 3/22/06, O Plameras <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > You should just leave the policy making to the Slug Committee. Your time
> > is over.
>
> Speaking on behalf of the committee, we side with Jeff's assessment of
> proper etiquette on the Slug list.

Speaking as an observer, considering joining SLUG, I'll say that I saw Jeff 
descending into "oh, yeah?" type responses myself.

And I was not impressed when he didn't write something like:

"We discussed this in  meeting, and decided on the SLUG position and it's 
___"

or

"You can find the written guidelines here __"

Nothing I read in his messages gave me reason to know that this was anything 
more official than a strongly held personal opinion, used as an attack.

As for the committee's opinion, what about the membership's?  Was this voted 
on?  That would be legitimate - but you haven't mentioned that, either, I 
notice.

It might be so, but no one is saying that, so I'll admit I'm wondering a bit 
about the culture of this LUG now.

Regards,
Bret


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Re: [SLUG] Fedora Core 5

[Matthew Hannigan]

On Wed, Mar 22, 2006 at 07:31:07PM +1100, Philip Greggs wrote:
> 
> I'm not subscribed to this list but followed the post on the WEB and
> I believe the RTFM retort was appropriate in the context.

Then you're an idiot, because the question was rhetorical.



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Re: [SLUG] Fedora Core 5

[Philip Greggs]

Bret wrote:

>You go on to list a ranking of "how bad" this is, but don't say what/why you
>would do instead.

This is quite common in this lists. Criticisms and no alternative ideas.

>My own view has been that with Free Software, it's really on the user to
>voluntarily do their own work, asking when necessary, or for social reasons -
>but with an expectation that everyone else's time is valuable too, and that I
>should join in and help.

The accepted practice is 'my time is important as yours. Tell us what you've
done and we'll tell you how to make it right."

>So, rather than seeing this as a brush-off, I can see it as teaching a man to
>fish - the skills he picks up help everyone.

>From what I can understand the person's post indicates to me he knows
what's he's about.
So, RTFM retort is not a brush-off, I agree.

>There may be times it's not appropriate to say 'RTFM' to some people, but in
>this context I think he's writing to someone who knows his way around.
>'RTFM' IS the right thing to do in many cases - even for a newbie (although
>that may not always be the right way to say it).  Reading gets the vocabulary
>and starts getting appropriate questions.

I'm not subscribed to this list but followed the post on the WEB and
I believe the RTFM retort was appropriate in the context.


PG
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Re: FW: [SLUG] Fedora Core 5

[Jeff Waugh]

> There may be times it's not appropriate to say 'RTFM' to some people, but
> in this context I think he's writing to someone who knows his way around.
> 'RTFM' IS the right thing to do in many cases - even for a newbie
> (although that may not always be the right way to say it).  Reading gets
> the vocabulary and starts getting appropriate questions.

It's not the direction to read documentation that is the problem, it's the
term itself. It's just rude. There are lots of kind, useful and friendly
ways of showing someone where to find more information to answer a question.
Much of the friendliness part of it comes from phrasing and manner. "RTFM"
is not friendly or helpful.

Directing someone towards relevant documentation is a really good way of
helping. Telling them to read the fucking manual [1] is insulting.

- Jeff

[1] Let's not beat around the bush.

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