Re: [SLUG] graduate programmers
James Purser wrote: Economics 101: A Graduate is only worth as much as someone is willing to pay them. Yep, and a quick look at the stats from the Graduate Careers Council of Australia shows that recent median first year salaries for IT graduates under 25 years of age (ie, no work history) in Sydney is $40,000. I can quite easily see a uni grad with only a degree getting $25,000 a year. In that case the person should exercise Economics 101 and find employment elsewhere. Cheers, Glen -- SLUG - Sydney Linux User's Group Mailing List - http://slug.org.au/ Subscription info and FAQs: http://slug.org.au/faq/mailinglists.html
Re: [SLUG] graduate programmers
Ken Foskey [EMAIL PROTECTED]: On Fri, 2006-02-17 at 08:24 +1100, Benno wrote: On Fri Feb 17, 2006 at 08:14:07 +1100, ashley maher wrote: G'day, Anybody know the ball park for grad programmers these days in Sydney? I'm not sure, it would totally depend on experience, and skills, and not all graduates are made the same, but maybe ~$50k. No graduate is worth $50K. $30K if you have some experience at programming at Uni. $40K if you got good marks specifically with the languages that they want $45K if you have great marks and specific knowledge, understanding of the processes and can demonstrate it in an interview. Ken I have just graduated, and my friends and I are on between 40k - 50k. The highest I heard was 74 k US, to live in the US and work for Microsoft. I did a four year degree and most of the people I know are smart so maybe those figures are skewed. I've certainly heard that 30k is the norm for IT graduates. I found it was quite difficult to get a job but that those that were offered were mostly very good. The competition out there is ridiculous for graduate positions and some of the bullshit they expect you to put up with is ridiculous. I would get calls the day before hand about major interviews which gives you no time to prepare or get time off work. At some places you spend 4 hours completing psychometric surveys to cull people, and while those surveys are accurate to some degree the level to which they are used was astounding to me. In one process we were told that 95% of people had been cut by these surveys. I picked my job because I liked it rather than the salary. I hope it pays off. Joel -- SLUG - Sydney Linux User's Group Mailing List - http://slug.org.au/ Subscription info and FAQs: http://slug.org.au/faq/mailinglists.html
Re: [SLUG] graduate programmers
On Fri, 2006-02-17 at 08:24 +1100, Benno wrote: On Fri Feb 17, 2006 at 08:14:07 +1100, ashley maher wrote: G'day, Anybody know the ball park for grad programmers these days in Sydney? I'm not sure, it would totally depend on experience, and skills, and not all graduates are made the same, but maybe ~$50k. No graduate is worth $50K. $30K if you have some experience at programming at Uni. $40K if you got good marks specifically with the languages that they want $45K if you have great marks and specific knowledge, understanding of the processes and can demonstrate it in an interview. More if you have: - skills, a WELL WRITTEN program of more than about 10 pages. - Worked in a company with references - Worked in a FOSS project and can demonstrate your input, ie real experience not reading the mailing list. - Can show a fair dinkum understanding of networking, what is a port, an IP, how name resolution works, what might break an application in the network layer, how you would fix it. - Can demonstrate the ability to problem solve AND work with others to solve problem. Nothing more annoying than a programmer that struggles with a problem for a week and does not ask for help. Note: The above really shows industry experience so it is more than 'graduate programmer'. Ken -- SLUG - Sydney Linux User's Group Mailing List - http://slug.org.au/ Subscription info and FAQs: http://slug.org.au/faq/mailinglists.html
Re: [SLUG] graduate programmers
Ken Foskey wrote: On Fri, 2006-02-17 at 08:24 +1100, Benno wrote: On Fri Feb 17, 2006 at 08:14:07 +1100, ashley maher wrote: G'day, Anybody know the ball park for grad programmers these days in Sydney? I'm not sure, it would totally depend on experience, and skills, and not all graduates are made the same, but maybe ~$50k. No graduate is worth $50K. $30K if you have some experience at programming at Uni. This is the base salary graduates start with 15 years ago, in at least two Companies I know. So, graduates base salary now should be higher than this. 15 years is a lot of years in the IT industry. A number of companies put graduate recruites through a rigorous training regime of from 3 to 6 months. This is all around training including programming. We must realize, once a graduate or anyone starts working, his/her salary is reviewed every six months, in these two Companies I know. It is not unusual that graduates double their starting salary before their 2nd year anniversary in those Companies. For employees who are worth the writings on paper they hold on even achieved much higher salaries. So, it really depends on the employee himself/herself, rather than being a graduate by itself. O Plameras -- SLUG - Sydney Linux User's Group Mailing List - http://slug.org.au/ Subscription info and FAQs: http://slug.org.au/faq/mailinglists.html
Re: [SLUG] graduate programmers
On Sunday 19 February 2006 09:00, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Anybody know the ball park for grad programmers these days in Sydney? I'm not sure, it would totally depend on experience, and skills, and not all graduates are made the same, but maybe ~$50k. No graduate is worth $50K. $30K if you have some experience at programming at Uni. $40K if you got good marks specifically with the languages that they want $45K if you have great marks and specific knowledge, understanding of the processes and can demonstrate it in an interview. More if you have: - skills, a WELL WRITTEN program of more than about 10 pages. And my personal favourite: an engineering graduate who divided by 2 'cause it gave the right answer Numerial differenciation and integration: samples s1 s2 s3 s4 s5 slope from s3-s1 s4-s2 s5-s3 ... (all good) area s1+s3 s2+s4 s3+s5 ... ie s1+s2+s2+s3+s3...+s(n-1)+s(n-1)+sn sigh James -- SLUG - Sydney Linux User's Group Mailing List - http://slug.org.au/ Subscription info and FAQs: http://slug.org.au/faq/mailinglists.html
Re: [SLUG] graduate programmers
O Plameras wrote:
This is the base salary graduates start with 15 years ago, in
at least two Companies I know. So, graduates base salary
now should be higher than this. 15 years is a lot
of years in the IT industry.
NOPE. Supply and demand. There is an enormous number of IT graduates
these days, so IMO advertised starting salaries are generally down to
what they were 15 years ago.
I posted the $15-20K one as it was offered each year for a few years.
What hasn't been mentioned yet is industry If you are in the pure IT
side, then the best can get some spectacular salaries, but other
industries tend not to have salaries too much above industry norm, so
the $25-20K was a dogsbody in finance as a start, but some of those
companies can reward well.
A number of companies put graduate recruites through a rigorous training
regime of from 3 to
6 months. This is all around training including programming.
We must realize, once a graduate or anyone starts working, his/her
salary is reviewed every six months,
Make sure you ask about reviews before you start and it is a good idea
to have the review dates written into the letter of offer[1]. Being able
to ask and still getting an offer is another test of a good place to work.
Practically, you have to know you are going to get a salary/wage that
provides a lifestyle to establish a good career. You'd probably have
HECS to pay off, permant house/unit/etc/living space to establish. Maybe
further study. Maybe time to get back into leisure activities that study
pushed out.
The problem with starting at one place to gaine xperience and moving on
is that if you do this a number of times, good companies may no longer
consider you.
It is also IMO extremely important to be involved in finishing projects.
So, it really depends on the employee himself/herself, rather than being
a graduate by itself.
Correct, but it also depends on the company and your immediate and
higher manager(s).
[1] I had one immediate manager say I wasn't due for review because I'd
negotitated a higher starting salary, but then I produced the letter of
offer outlining starting salary and and three month review. Again the
higher manager wrote a very useful reference when I did leave after 12
months.
--
Terry Collins {:-)}}}
email: terryc at woa.com.au www: http://www.woa.com.au
Wombat Outdoor Adventures Bicycles, Computers, Outdoors, Publishing
Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little
security will deserve neither and lose both. Benjamin Franklin
--
SLUG - Sydney Linux User's Group Mailing List - http://slug.org.au/
Subscription info and FAQs: http://slug.org.au/faq/mailinglists.html
Re: [SLUG] graduate programmers
Terry Collins wrote: O Plameras wrote: This is the base salary graduates start with 15 years ago, in at least two Companies I know. So, graduates base salary now should be higher than this. 15 years is a lot of years in the IT industry. NOPE. Supply and demand. There is an enormous number of IT graduates these days, so IMO advertised starting salaries are generally down to what they were 15 years ago. I posted the $15-20K one as it was offered each year for a few years. What hasn't been mentioned yet is industry If you are in the pure IT side, then the best can get some spectacular salaries, but other industries tend not to have salaries too much above industry norm, so the $25-20K was a dogsbody in finance as a start, but some of those companies can reward well. This is less than a student rate, and much less than a graduate rate. For $25,000 stipend (or salary) per year one could continue University and earn a Ph.D. O Plameras -- SLUG - Sydney Linux User's Group Mailing List - http://slug.org.au/ Subscription info and FAQs: http://slug.org.au/faq/mailinglists.html
Re: [SLUG] graduate programmers
On Sun Feb 19, 2006 at 14:38:05 +1100, O Plameras wrote: Terry Collins wrote: O Plameras wrote: This is the base salary graduates start with 15 years ago, in at least two Companies I know. So, graduates base salary now should be higher than this. 15 years is a lot of years in the IT industry. NOPE. Supply and demand. There is an enormous number of IT graduates these days, so IMO advertised starting salaries are generally down to what they were 15 years ago. I posted the $15-20K one as it was offered each year for a few years. What hasn't been mentioned yet is industry If you are in the pure IT side, then the best can get some spectacular salaries, but other industries tend not to have salaries too much above industry norm, so the $25-20K was a dogsbody in finance as a start, but some of those companies can reward well. This is less than a student rate, and much less than a graduate rate. For $25,000 stipend (or salary) per year one could continue University and earn a Ph.D. Only if you were good enough to get such a stipend, which is by no means simple. Cheers, Benno -- SLUG - Sydney Linux User's Group Mailing List - http://slug.org.au/ Subscription info and FAQs: http://slug.org.au/faq/mailinglists.html
Re: [SLUG] graduate programmers
O Plameras wrote:
For $25,000 stipend (or salary) per year one could continue University
and earn a Ph.D.
Hmm, haven't looked at PHd student jobs in decades, but it isn't the
issue. Schools have been pushing masses of students into IT for at least
a decade. As a result, companies have so many more to choose from, they
can afford to offer lower starting salaries.
And, if you expect grads to spend a year finding their feet, what you
save on the initial intake, can be quickly offered to the ones who you
want to keep.
Some companies still follow the practise whereby you take a mass of
peeps on as trainees and gradually weed them out, keeping and grooming
the most desireable[1] for a career in the company.
[1] the criteria of desireable varies. Sometimes being too good isn't
desireable.
My 2c is that if you are offering yourself as a grad, sure it is handy
to have an idea of what you might get offered (doesn't uni tell you
anyway?), but until you get out there, you really don't find out what
you are going to be offered.
Personally, if you are worried about a career, it is equally important
to research the company/workplace as well as worry about the $$$.
Nothing worse that take a higher paying job at a dying concern (been
there, done that).
--
Terry Collins {:-)}}}
email: terryc at woa.com.au www: http://www.woa.com.au
Wombat Outdoor Adventures Bicycles, Computers, Outdoors, Publishing
Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little
security will deserve neither and lose both. Benjamin Franklin
--
SLUG - Sydney Linux User's Group Mailing List - http://slug.org.au/
Subscription info and FAQs: http://slug.org.au/faq/mailinglists.html
Re: [SLUG] graduate programmers
On Sun, 2006-02-19 at 14:38 +1100, O Plameras wrote: For $25,000 stipend (or salary) per year one could continue University and earn a Ph.D. You are talking apples and potatoes. I gave some ranges based on knowledge of the applicant, you have picked only the smallest amount and then challenged that with what a high achiever can get on a scholarship. Talk about skewing the discussion. We give poor signals to the grads that ask us because we consider ourselves as examples. How many involved in slug would you consider as coming out of Uni as 'average' with a very low pass? Most of the SLUG Unix students would get hired in the 'industry experience' range not 'graduate'. I tried to show that there is not one amount but a range based upon ability. Ken -- SLUG - Sydney Linux User's Group Mailing List - http://slug.org.au/ Subscription info and FAQs: http://slug.org.au/faq/mailinglists.html
Re: [SLUG] graduate programmers
Terry Collins wrote: O Plameras wrote: For $25,000 stipend (or salary) per year one could continue University and earn a Ph.D. Hmm, haven't looked at PHd student jobs in decades, but it isn't the issue. Schools have been pushing masses of students into IT for at least a decade. As a result, companies have so many more to choose from, they can afford to offer lower starting salaries. And, if you expect grads to spend a year finding their feet, what you save on the initial intake, can be quickly offered to the ones who you want to keep. Some companies still follow the practise whereby you take a mass of peeps on as trainees and gradually weed them out, keeping and grooming the most desireable[1] for a career in the company. [1] the criteria of desireable varies. Sometimes being too good isn't desireable. My 2c is that if you are offering yourself as a grad, sure it is handy to have an idea of what you might get offered (doesn't uni tell you anyway?), but until you get out there, you really don't find out what you are going to be offered. Personally, if you are worried about a career, it is equally important to research the company/workplace as well as worry about the $$$. Nothing worse that take a higher paying job at a dying concern (been there, done that). The point here is $25,000 for graduates as initial salary offer is low. A year-12 high school graduate begins at that salary level. Certainly, a Uni graduate is worth more than that. O Plameras -- SLUG - Sydney Linux User's Group Mailing List - http://slug.org.au/ Subscription info and FAQs: http://slug.org.au/faq/mailinglists.html
Re: [SLUG] graduate programmers
On Sun, 2006-02-19 at 17:32 +1100, O Plameras wrote: The point here is $25,000 for graduates as initial salary offer is low. A year-12 high school graduate begins at that salary level. Certainly, a Uni graduate is worth more than that. O Plameras Economics 101: A Graduate is only worth as much as someone is willing to pay them. It depends on the skill set and experience they bring with them. A graduate who is only bringing their degree with them is going to get paid less than a graduate who can bring a couple of years worth of real world experience. I can quite easily see a uni grad with only a degree getting $25,000 a year. For many it would be their first real job, and for most, they are not going to get jobs in pure IT companies, instead they will be in industries as varied as Television Broadcasting through to Mining. -- James Purser Producer/Presenter - Linux Australia Update http://k-sit.com - My Blog http://la-pod.k-sit.com - Linux Australia Update Podcast,Blog and Forums Skype: purserj1977 SIP: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- SLUG - Sydney Linux User's Group Mailing List - http://slug.org.au/ Subscription info and FAQs: http://slug.org.au/faq/mailinglists.html
Re: [SLUG] graduate programmers
Ken Foskey wrote: On Sun, 2006-02-19 at 14:38 +1100, O Plameras wrote: For $25,000 stipend (or salary) per year one could continue University and earn a Ph.D. You are talking apples and potatoes. I gave some ranges based on knowledge of the applicant, you have picked only the smallest amount and then challenged that with what a high achiever can get on a scholarship. Talk about skewing the discussion. The point here is $25,000 for graduates as initial salary offer is low. It will not afford much of what one considers standard of living for a graduate much more afford a mortgage. A year-12 high school graduate begins at that salary level maybe more. Certainly, a Uni graduate is worth more than that. I know for a fact that some Uni graduates start as programmers (perl for example) at more than twice $25,000. And companies offering this sort of pay gets the top 30 percent of the available graduates out there. If you pay 'peanuts' you get 'peanuts'; pay premium and you get extra. We give poor signals to the grads that ask us because we consider ourselves as examples. How many involved in slug would you consider as coming out of Uni as 'average' with a very low pass? Most of the SLUG Unix students would get hired in the 'industry experience' range not 'graduate'. I do not understand why a point of view can be a wrong signal. And how come you are saying ourselves as examples. I do not know how many in Slugs. But I do not underestimate the abilities of Uni graduates or anyone including those who have not yet completed UNI. I tried to show that there is not one amount but a range based upon ability. I do not dispute your post. I am putting forward a point of view; only one from many. Yours is one of them. O Plameras -- SLUG - Sydney Linux User's Group Mailing List - http://slug.org.au/ Subscription info and FAQs: http://slug.org.au/faq/mailinglists.html
Re: [SLUG] graduate programmers
James Purser wrote: On Sun, 2006-02-19 at 17:32 +1100, O Plameras wrote: The point here is $25,000 for graduates as initial salary offer is low. A year-12 high school graduate begins at that salary level. Certainly, a Uni graduate is worth more than that. O Plameras Economics 101: A Graduate is only worth as much as someone is willing to pay them. Yes, we use economic indicators to decide on prices. We decide to buy stocks based on economic indicators. Yes, we decide to employ people and how much to pay for their salary based on some indicators, like Age, Experience, Academic Qualifications, and others. Between a year-12 and a Uni graduate you'd have to pay more for a Uni graduate. It depends on the skill set and experience they bring with them. A graduate who is only bringing their degree with them is going to get paid less than a graduate who can bring a couple of years worth of real world experience. Yes this is true. I can quite easily see a uni grad with only a degree getting $25,000 a year. For many it would be their first real job, and for most, they are not going to get jobs in pure IT companies, instead they will be in industries as varied as Television Broadcasting through to Mining. You'd be surprise to know that large IT companies go around Universities each year trying to woo new graduates. O Plameras -- SLUG - Sydney Linux User's Group Mailing List - http://slug.org.au/ Subscription info and FAQs: http://slug.org.au/faq/mailinglists.html
[SLUG] graduate programmers
G'day, Anybody know the ball park for grad programmers these days in Sydney? Regards, Ashley -- SLUG - Sydney Linux User's Group Mailing List - http://slug.org.au/ Subscription info and FAQs: http://slug.org.au/faq/mailinglists.html
Re: [SLUG] graduate programmers
On Fri Feb 17, 2006 at 08:14:07 +1100, ashley maher wrote: G'day, Anybody know the ball park for grad programmers these days in Sydney? I'm not sure, it would totally depend on experience, and skills, and not all graduates are made the same, but maybe ~$50k. -- SLUG - Sydney Linux User's Group Mailing List - http://slug.org.au/ Subscription info and FAQs: http://slug.org.au/faq/mailinglists.html
Re: [SLUG] graduate programmers
On Fri, Feb 17, 2006 at 08:14:07AM +1100, ashley maher wrote: G'day, Anybody know the ball park for grad programmers these days in Sydney? 30K, double it if they've got open source experience (ie. they can actually program). Conrad. -- SLUG - Sydney Linux User's Group Mailing List - http://slug.org.au/ Subscription info and FAQs: http://slug.org.au/faq/mailinglists.html
RE: [SLUG] graduate programmers
On Fri, Feb 17, 2006 at 08:14:07AM +1100, ashley maher wrote: G'day, Anybody know the ball park for grad programmers these days in Sydney? 30K, double it if they've got open source experience (ie. they can actually program). When I and my fellow alumni were applying for grad programmer jobs 6 years ago, the ballpark was 35-45k. - Rog -- SLUG - Sydney Linux User's Group Mailing List - http://slug.org.au/ Subscription info and FAQs: http://slug.org.au/faq/mailinglists.html
Re: [SLUG] graduate programmers
On Fri, 2006-02-17 at 08:14 +1100, ashley maher wrote: G'day, Anybody know the ball park for grad programmers these days in Sydney? For hire or purchase :0 Rob -- GPG key available at: http://www.robertcollins.net/keys.txt. signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part -- SLUG - Sydney Linux User's Group Mailing List - http://slug.org.au/ Subscription info and FAQs: http://slug.org.au/faq/mailinglists.html
Re: [SLUG] graduate programmers
ashley maher wrote:
G'day,
Anybody know the ball park for grad programmers these days in Sydney?
There is a finance company on the northside that will start you at
$15-20K {:-), but that is definitely the worst I've seen listed.
--
Terry Collins {:-)}}}
email: terryc at woa.com.au www: http://www.woa.com.au
Wombat Outdoor Adventures Bicycles, Computers, Outdoors, Publishing
Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little
security will deserve neither and lose both. Benjamin Franklin
--
SLUG - Sydney Linux User's Group Mailing List - http://slug.org.au/
Subscription info and FAQs: http://slug.org.au/faq/mailinglists.html
Re: [SLUG] graduate programmers
On 2/17/06, Terry Collins [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
There is a finance company on the northside that will start you at
$15-20K {:-), but that is definitely the worst I've seen listed.
Pfft, not even worth the travel for that amount
--
SLUG - Sydney Linux User's Group Mailing List - http://slug.org.au/
Subscription info and FAQs: http://slug.org.au/faq/mailinglists.html
