Re: [EXTERNAL] Transfer Switches

[John Denhardt via Sprinklerforum]

Agree - Too much caffeine.  I did say something slightly off-topic.

I fully understood your points, however I think you missed mine.  I was
stating just because an area had reliable power for the last 10 years,
after a few incidents, the rating can change.  This should not change an
existing system's approval but moving forward, new systems might need to
comply with different requirements.

Thanks,
John

John August Denhardt, PE
*Vice President, Engineering and Technical Services*

*American Fire Sprinkler Association*
m: p: 301-343-1457
214-349-5965 ext 121
w: firesprinkler.org



   

*Our members are at the heart of everything we do.*

*Get in the (Fitter) Zone!*


AFSA's "Fitter Zone" features live webinars designed specifically for fire
sprinkler fitters. These live presentations are held on Saturdays whenever
possible, so you don't have to take your fitters out of the field during
the workweek. If you cannot attend live sessions, these webinars will be
recorded and can be purchased for on-demand access.  Learn more *here*
.




On Mon, Aug 30, 2021 at 12:16 PM Steve Leyton 
wrote:

> All true of course, but in this case the electric pump was approved and
> installed with the primary power supply apparently considered "reliable".
>  NFPA 20 criteria are admittedly generous and of course you're right about
> Texas and NOLA, but what we don't ever want is for a particular situation
> or design challenge to fall into the vortex of over-consideration or
> open-ended "What if?" thinking.   I understood the context of the original
> question to be that the power is reliable and the gen-set is NOT required
> to be connected.   Getting an EOR involved who may be more interested in
> covering their ass than considering the owner's interests isn't necessarily
> prudent or necessary.   I still recall one of our friends telling me about
> a state capitol building project where the EOR specified a 2,000 GPM diesel
> pump for a mostly Light Hazard building...
>
> Yes, a diesel pump is always an option but they require much more
> intensive testing and maintenance, have a higher first cost, are noisy and
> stinky, and in states like CA there are costly environment regs (we're NOT
> the only one) that pile on even more.And surprisingly, diesel pumps are
> NOT more likely to fire up as required - FM found several years ago that
> the failure rate of installed pumps was roughly equal comparing diesel to
> electric drives.
>
> Okay, Monday morning caffeine shot expended - carry on.
>
> SL
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:
> sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of John
> Denhardt via Sprinklerforum
> Sent: Monday, August 30, 2021 7:52 AM
> To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
> Cc: John Denhardt 
> Subject: Re: [EXTERNAL] Transfer Switches
>
> Slightly off topic - the determination of "reliable" normal power can
> change with time.  Look at the Texas area after last winter.  Look at New
> Orleans after the last 24 hours.  Just because an area was served by
> reliable power in the psat, things do change.  Have the engineer of record
> determine if standby power is required.  As Craig stated, many factors can
> influence the decision.
>
> On a personal note, I have specified, designed, installed, tested, and
> maintained thousands of diesel driven fire pumps systems.  Thet do make a
> good option where normal and or standby power is an issue.
>
> Thanks,
> John
>
> John August Denhardt, PE
> *Vice President, Engineering and Technical Services*
>
> *American Fire Sprinkler Association*
> m: p: 301-343-1457
> 214-349-5965 ext 121
> w: firesprinkler.org
> 
> 
> <
> https://www.linkedin.com/company/american-fire-sprinkler-association-afsa-/
> >
>
>
> *Our members are at the heart of everything we do.*
>
> *Get in the (Fitter) Zone!*
>
>
> AFSA's "Fitter Zone" features live webinars designed specifically for fire
> sprinkler fitters. These live presentations are held on Saturdays whenever
> possible, so you don't have to take your fitters out of the field during
> the workweek. If you cannot attend live sessions, these webinars will be
> recorded and can be purchased for on-demand access.  Learn more *here* <
> https://www.firesprinkler.org/fitterzone>.
>
>
>
>
> On Mon, Aug 30, 2021 at 8:58 AM Prahl, Craig/GVL via Sprinklerforum <
> sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org> wrote:
>
> > No. Just because a generator is present doesn't automatically require
> > it to be connected to the fire pump.
> >
> > The requirement of secondary or backup power for an electric 

RE: [EXTERNAL] Transfer Switches

[Steve Leyton via Sprinklerforum]

All true of course, but in this case the electric pump was approved and 
installed with the primary power supply apparently considered "reliable".   
NFPA 20 criteria are admittedly generous and of course you're right about Texas 
and NOLA, but what we don't ever want is for a particular situation or design 
challenge to fall into the vortex of over-consideration or open-ended "What 
if?" thinking.   I understood the context of the original question to be that 
the power is reliable and the gen-set is NOT required to be connected.   
Getting an EOR involved who may be more interested in covering their ass than 
considering the owner's interests isn't necessarily prudent or necessary.   I 
still recall one of our friends telling me about a state capitol building 
project where the EOR specified a 2,000 GPM diesel pump for a mostly Light 
Hazard building... 

Yes, a diesel pump is always an option but they require much more intensive 
testing and maintenance, have a higher first cost, are noisy and stinky, and in 
states like CA there are costly environment regs (we're NOT the only one) that 
pile on even more.And surprisingly, diesel pumps are NOT more likely to 
fire up as required - FM found several years ago that the failure rate of 
installed pumps was roughly equal comparing diesel to electric drives.

Okay, Monday morning caffeine shot expended - carry on.

SL

-Original Message-
From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On 
Behalf Of John Denhardt via Sprinklerforum
Sent: Monday, August 30, 2021 7:52 AM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Cc: John Denhardt 
Subject: Re: [EXTERNAL] Transfer Switches

Slightly off topic - the determination of "reliable" normal power can change 
with time.  Look at the Texas area after last winter.  Look at New Orleans 
after the last 24 hours.  Just because an area was served by reliable power in 
the psat, things do change.  Have the engineer of record determine if standby 
power is required.  As Craig stated, many factors can influence the decision.

On a personal note, I have specified, designed, installed, tested, and 
maintained thousands of diesel driven fire pumps systems.  Thet do make a good 
option where normal and or standby power is an issue.

Thanks,
John

John August Denhardt, PE
*Vice President, Engineering and Technical Services*

*American Fire Sprinkler Association*
m: p: 301-343-1457
214-349-5965 ext 121
w: firesprinkler.org



   

*Our members are at the heart of everything we do.*

*Get in the (Fitter) Zone!*


AFSA's "Fitter Zone" features live webinars designed specifically for fire 
sprinkler fitters. These live presentations are held on Saturdays whenever 
possible, so you don't have to take your fitters out of the field during the 
workweek. If you cannot attend live sessions, these webinars will be recorded 
and can be purchased for on-demand access.  Learn more *here* 
.




On Mon, Aug 30, 2021 at 8:58 AM Prahl, Craig/GVL via Sprinklerforum < 
sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org> wrote:

> No. Just because a generator is present doesn't automatically require 
> it to be connected to the fire pump.
>
> The requirement of secondary or backup power for an electric fire pump 
> is directly related to the reliability of the primary power source and 
> other factors, some which may be code driven, some based on the 
> function of the building and other reasons may be related to the 
> contents of the building (hazardous materials).  There are specific 
> guidelines that typically are addressed or queried as part of the 
> electrical power supply analysis by the project electrical 
> engineer/contractor.  (well, hopefully).
>
> NFPA 20, 2019 9.3.2 speaks about non-reliable power sources and 
> additional criteria is defined within the appendix.  Now, while this 
> particular section is addressing High-Rises, the same application can 
> apply to any building with contents or other conditions that 
> absolutely must have an operational fire pump.
>
> So in the case of this building which has refrigerated consumables, 
> whether or not the fire pump HAS to be operational in a power outage 
> to protect the building and product is more of an owner/insurer preference.
> If the ice cream melts, it will be a mess but it will not endanger the 
> public.
>
> Craig Prahl | Jacobs | Group Lead/SME - Fire Protection | 
> craig.pr...@jacobs.com | www.jacobs.com
> 1041 East Butler Road   Greenville, South Carolina  29606
> CONTACT BY: email or MS TEAMS
>
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Sprinklerforum  
> On Behalf Of Richard Mote via Sprinklerforum
> Sent: Thursday, August 26, 2021 8:04 PM
> To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org

Re: [EXTERNAL] Transfer Switches

[John Denhardt via Sprinklerforum]

Slightly off topic - the determination of "reliable" normal power can
change with time.  Look at the Texas area after last winter.  Look at New
Orleans after the last 24 hours.  Just because an area was served by
reliable power in the psat, things do change.  Have the engineer of record
determine if standby power is required.  As Craig stated, many factors can
influence the decision.

On a personal note, I have specified, designed, installed, tested, and
maintained thousands of diesel driven fire pumps systems.  Thet do make a
good option where normal and or standby power is an issue.

Thanks,
John

John August Denhardt, PE
*Vice President, Engineering and Technical Services*

*American Fire Sprinkler Association*
m: p: 301-343-1457
214-349-5965 ext 121
w: firesprinkler.org



   

*Our members are at the heart of everything we do.*

*Get in the (Fitter) Zone!*


AFSA's "Fitter Zone" features live webinars designed specifically for fire
sprinkler fitters. These live presentations are held on Saturdays whenever
possible, so you don't have to take your fitters out of the field during
the workweek. If you cannot attend live sessions, these webinars will be
recorded and can be purchased for on-demand access.  Learn more *here*
.




On Mon, Aug 30, 2021 at 8:58 AM Prahl, Craig/GVL via Sprinklerforum <
sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org> wrote:

> No. Just because a generator is present doesn't automatically require it
> to be connected to the fire pump.
>
> The requirement of secondary or backup power for an electric fire pump is
> directly related to the reliability of the primary power source and other
> factors, some which may be code driven, some based on the function of the
> building and other reasons may be related to the contents of the building
> (hazardous materials).  There are specific guidelines that typically are
> addressed or queried as part of the electrical power supply analysis by the
> project electrical engineer/contractor.  (well, hopefully).
>
> NFPA 20, 2019 9.3.2 speaks about non-reliable power sources and additional
> criteria is defined within the appendix.  Now, while this particular
> section is addressing High-Rises, the same application can apply to any
> building with contents or other conditions that absolutely must have an
> operational fire pump.
>
> So in the case of this building which has refrigerated consumables,
> whether or not the fire pump HAS to be operational in a power outage to
> protect the building and product is more of an owner/insurer preference.
> If the ice cream melts, it will be a mess but it will not endanger the
> public.
>
> Craig Prahl | Jacobs | Group Lead/SME - Fire Protection |
> craig.pr...@jacobs.com | www.jacobs.com
> 1041 East Butler Road   Greenville, South Carolina  29606
> CONTACT BY: email or MS TEAMS
>
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Sprinklerforum  On
> Behalf Of Richard Mote via Sprinklerforum
> Sent: Thursday, August 26, 2021 8:04 PM
> To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
> Cc: Richard Mote 
> Subject: [EXTERNAL] Transfer Switches
>
> Got a email from a customer with the following question. I'm on the road
> with no access to my books.If an emergency generator is installed on a
> building, is there anything in the codes that would require it to be
> connected to the fire pump.
> RichardL. Mote CET
>
> Rimrock Design Services,LLC
>
> PO Box 36
> Middleburg, PA 17842
>
> Mobile 570-541-2685
>
> EMAIL rimrock.designservi...@gmail.com
>
>
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>
> 
>
> NOTICE - This communication may contain confidential and privileged
> information that is for the sole use of the intended recipient. Any
> viewing, copying or distribution of, or reliance on this message by
> unintended recipients is strictly prohibited. If you have received this
> message in error, please notify us immediately by replying to the message
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RE: [EXTERNAL] Transfer Switches

[Prahl, Craig/GVL via Sprinklerforum]

No. Just because a generator is present doesn't automatically require it to be 
connected to the fire pump.

The requirement of secondary or backup power for an electric fire pump is 
directly related to the reliability of the primary power source and other 
factors, some which may be code driven, some based on the function of the 
building and other reasons may be related to the contents of the building 
(hazardous materials).  There are specific guidelines that typically are 
addressed or queried as part of the electrical power supply analysis by the 
project electrical engineer/contractor.  (well, hopefully).

NFPA 20, 2019 9.3.2 speaks about non-reliable power sources and additional 
criteria is defined within the appendix.  Now, while this particular section is 
addressing High-Rises, the same application can apply to any building with 
contents or other conditions that absolutely must have an operational fire pump.

So in the case of this building which has refrigerated consumables, whether or 
not the fire pump HAS to be operational in a power outage to protect the 
building and product is more of an owner/insurer preference.  If the ice cream 
melts, it will be a mess but it will not endanger the public.

Craig Prahl | Jacobs | Group Lead/SME - Fire Protection | 
craig.pr...@jacobs.com | www.jacobs.com
1041 East Butler Road   Greenville, South Carolina  29606
CONTACT BY: email or MS TEAMS



-Original Message-
From: Sprinklerforum  On Behalf 
Of Richard Mote via Sprinklerforum
Sent: Thursday, August 26, 2021 8:04 PM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Cc: Richard Mote 
Subject: [EXTERNAL] Transfer Switches

Got a email from a customer with the following question. I'm on the road with 
no access to my books.If an emergency generator is installed on a building, is 
there anything in the codes that would require it to be connected to the fire 
pump.
RichardL. Mote CET

Rimrock Design Services,LLC

PO Box 36
Middleburg, PA 17842

Mobile 570-541-2685

EMAIL rimrock.designservi...@gmail.com


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