Re: Extinguisher Effectiveness
Data on portable extinguisher use in the UK is published by the FIA. You can download a summary of the 2011 report at: http://www.fia.uk.com/filemanager/root/site_assets/articles/ifp_-_portables.pdf This shows that 88% of fires tacked with extinguishers were put out. Stewart On 17 Apr 2011, at 01:55, Chris Mak wrote: The Europeans relatively recently (in the 2000's?) carried out surveys and found similar statistics. From memory, somewhere in the 80%'s. I'm sure that Alan Brinson would have this data. Our Sprinkler Standard calls up for extinguishers for this reason. Put out the small fire before the sprinkler operates, and thereby minimise damage. Regards Chris Mak | Aon New Zealand Technical Services Manager Level 1, 4 Fred Thomas Drive Takapuna t: +6494869761 | f: +6494860112 | m: +64274344058 e: chris@aon.co.nz Please consider the environment before printing this email. -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Doug Hicks Sent: Sunday, 17 April 2011 12:52 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org; fpech...@embarqmail.com Subject: Re: PC- 3 Laboratories Before I left the fire service 20 + years ago, the Oregon State FM had an article in the Gated Wye, about fire extinguisher use in reported fires. I do not remember the exact figures now, of the reported fires, about 93 % of the fires that fire extinguishers were used on, were controlled by fire extinguishers. Of the fires controlled by fire extinguishers, a very small number of the fires are reported to the FD. Fire extinguishers can help control an incipient fire. Douglas Hicks General Fire Equipment Co of Eastern Oregon -Original Message- From: Chris Cahill Sent: Friday, April 15, 2011 3:43 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: Re: PC- 3 Laboratories I don't concur with the statement they don't have a stellar success rate. In some sprinkler research I found a statistically significant number of fires put out with extinguishers in SPRINKLERED buildings. We including I often speak of the holy grail of sprinklers but these very cheap cousins are valuable. I guarantee they have put out more fires than fires alarms with all the strobes and costs. And lost in the data is a fire knocked down so it's smaller than would have been when the FD arrived. ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) This communication (and any attachments) is directed in confidence to the addressee(s) listed above, and may not otherwise be distributed, copied or used. The contents of this communication may also be subject to privilege, and all rights to that privilege are expressly claimed and not waived. If you have received this communication in error, please notify us by reply e-mail or by telephone and delete this communication (and any attachments) without making a copy. Before opening or using attachments, you should check them for viruses and defects. We do not accept liability in connection with computer virus, data corruption, delay, interruption, unauthorised access or unauthorised amendment. ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
Re: Extinguisher Effectiveness
Scot All the so-called clean agents containing halocarbons are only 'clean' when in storage. If they are discharged in a fire there is a very high probability that corrosive by products will be formed. Para 13.2 of BS 5306 Part 0: 2011 makes the point well: Halocarbon agents can decompose when coming into contact with high temperatures. Of particular concern would be hazards where hot surfaces might be present such as furnaces, ovens, etc. When and where decomposition products occur, they are corrosive. The main decomposition product is hydrogen fluoride (HF) and prompt venting of the space after discharge can reduce the likelihood of corrosive action on materials. My own experience of FM 200 (which appears to be the agent which generates most HF) suggests that following discharge into confined spaces containing significant quantities of pvc cable, corrosive by-products are invariably formed and that damage to the contents of the space should be anticipated. I have not proposed, specified or recommended any of the halocarbon based agents for more that 10 years and have recommended the replacement of quite a few FM200 systems by inert gases or watermist/sprinklers. I too would hope that these agents will be phased out. Stewart On 17 Apr 2011, at 11:06, å... wrote: Statistics we can use...thanks for those! Fire extinguishers can work, but if the facility is valuable and not occupied 24/7... Fluorinated-foam and dry chem will be corrosive on sensitive equipment. De-ionized Water mist and clean-agent are alternatives, although if the clean-agent contains fluorine, I am betting what is marketed as clean today will be billed more realistically after 20 years of history. If we have the courage to encourage occupants to use portables, then how fine a line is it in our minds to allow an occupant to choose to use a hose line? scot deal excelsior fire ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
Re: Extinguisher Effectiveness
Scot, Rules of thumb I use regarding fire extinguishers: Untrained--run Trained layman--run if fire is bigger than you Trained fire professional--run, there are too few to risk/spare Firefighter--your call On Sun, Apr 17, 2011 at 3:06 AM, å... eurekaig...@gmail.com wrote: Statistics we can use...thanks for those! Fire extinguishers can work, but if the facility is valuable and not occupied 24/7... Fluorinated-foam and dry chem will be corrosive on sensitive equipment. De-ionized Water mist and clean-agent are alternatives, although if the clean-agent contains fluorine, I am betting what is marketed as clean today will be billed more realistically after 20 years of history. If we have the courage to encourage occupants to use portables, then how fine a line is it in our minds to allow an occupant to choose to use a hose line? scot deal excelsior fire ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) -- Ron Greenman Instructor Fire Protection Engineering Technology Bates Technical College 1101 So. Yakima Ave. Tacoma, WA 98405 rgreen...@bates.ctc.edu http://www.bates.ctc.edu/fireprotection/ 253.680.7346 253.576.9700 (cell) Member: ASEE, SFPE, ASCET, NFPA, AFSA, NFSA, AFAA, NIBS, WSAFM, WFC They are happy men whose natures sort with their vocations. -Francis Bacon, essayist, philosopher, and statesman (1561-1626) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
Re: Extinguisher Effectiveness
Ron Would this include running if you have a stove top fire in your kitchen and your house is 35 minutes response time from the nearest FD unit ? Stewart On 17 Apr 2011, at 15:55, Ron Greenman wrote: Scot, Rules of thumb I use regarding fire extinguishers: Untrained--run Trained layman--run if fire is bigger than you Trained fire professional--run, there are too few to risk/spare Firefighter--your call On Sun, Apr 17, 2011 at 3:06 AM, å... eurekaig...@gmail.com wrote: Statistics we can use...thanks for those! Fire extinguishers can work, but if the facility is valuable and not occupied 24/7... Fluorinated-foam and dry chem will be corrosive on sensitive equipment. De-ionized Water mist and clean-agent are alternatives, although if the clean-agent contains fluorine, I am betting what is marketed as clean today will be billed more realistically after 20 years of history. If we have the courage to encourage occupants to use portables, then how fine a line is it in our minds to allow an occupant to choose to use a hose line? scot deal excelsior fire ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) -- Ron Greenman Instructor Fire Protection Engineering Technology Bates Technical College 1101 So. Yakima Ave. Tacoma, WA 98405 rgreen...@bates.ctc.edu http://www.bates.ctc.edu/fireprotection/ 253.680.7346 253.576.9700 (cell) Member: ASEE, SFPE, ASCET, NFPA, AFSA, NFSA, AFAA, NIBS, WSAFM, WFC They are happy men whose natures sort with their vocations. -Francis Bacon, essayist, philosopher, and statesman (1561-1626) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
Re: Extinguisher Effectiveness
Easy answer for that - I installed a sprinkler system. (And I am a fire professional) Michael M. Fitz, P.E., C.F.E.I., C.F.P.S. MDE Inc. 700 S. Industrial Way, Seattle, WA 98101 Home Office P.O. Box G, Shelton, WA 98584 206-321-1804 On 4/17/2011 9:00 AM, Stewart Kidd wrote: Ron Would this include running if you have a stove top fire in your kitchen and your house is 35 minutes response time from the nearest FD unit ? Stewart On 17 Apr 2011, at 15:55, Ron Greenman wrote: Scot, Rules of thumb I use regarding fire extinguishers: Untrained--run Trained layman--run if fire is bigger than you Trained fire professional--run, there are too few to risk/spare Firefighter--your call On Sun, Apr 17, 2011 at 3:06 AM, å... eurekaig...@gmail.com wrote: Statistics we can use...thanks for those! Fire extinguishers can work, but if the facility is valuable and not occupied 24/7... Fluorinated-foam and dry chem will be corrosive on sensitive equipment. De-ionized Water mist and clean-agent are alternatives, although if the clean-agent contains fluorine, I am betting what is marketed as clean today will be billed more realistically after 20 years of history. If we have the courage to encourage occupants to use portables, then how fine a line is it in our minds to allow an occupant to choose to use a hose line? scot deal excelsior fire ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) -- Ron Greenman Instructor Fire Protection Engineering Technology Bates Technical College 1101 So. Yakima Ave. Tacoma, WA 98405 rgreen...@bates.ctc.edu http://www.bates.ctc.edu/fireprotection/ 253.680.7346 253.576.9700 (cell) Member: ASEE, SFPE, ASCET, NFPA, AFSA, NFSA, AFAA, NIBS, WSAFM, WFC They are happy men whose natures sort with their vocations. -Francis Bacon, essayist, philosopher, and statesman (1561-1626) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) __ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus signature database 6050 (20110417) __ The message was checked by ESET Smart Security. http://www.eset.com __ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus signature database 6050 (20110417) __ The message was checked by ESET Smart Security. http://www.eset.com ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
Re: Extinguisher Effectiveness
Stewart, Just my advice. Ever watch someone with no training fiddle for many seconds just trying to break the seal and then shooting agent at the top of the flames. The intuitive thing to do is pull instead of twist and to attack the flame instead of the fuel. Unfortunately the intuitive thing is, like trying to break a fall buy putting out your hands out instead of collapsing, twisting and spreading the fall out across lots of bouncy leg, butt, and shoulder muscle instead of thin skin and inflexible bone, wrong. I've voluntarily jumped out of perfectly good airplanes, dumped motorcycles, fallen off small cliffs and roofs and have been bruised and battered but never broken. On Sun, Apr 17, 2011 at 9:07 AM, Michael Fitz mf...@mde.com wrote: Easy answer for that - I installed a sprinkler system. (And I am a fire professional) Michael M. Fitz, P.E., C.F.E.I., C.F.P.S. MDE Inc. 700 S. Industrial Way, Seattle, WA 98101 Home Office P.O. Box G, Shelton, WA 98584 206-321-1804 On 4/17/2011 9:00 AM, Stewart Kidd wrote: Ron Would this include running if you have a stove top fire in your kitchen and your house is 35 minutes response time from the nearest FD unit ? Stewart On 17 Apr 2011, at 15:55, Ron Greenman wrote: Scot, Rules of thumb I use regarding fire extinguishers: Untrained--run Trained layman--run if fire is bigger than you Trained fire professional--run, there are too few to risk/spare Firefighter--your call On Sun, Apr 17, 2011 at 3:06 AM, å... eurekaig...@gmail.com wrote: Statistics we can use...thanks for those! Fire extinguishers can work, but if the facility is valuable and not occupied 24/7... Fluorinated-foam and dry chem will be corrosive on sensitive equipment. De-ionized Water mist and clean-agent are alternatives, although if the clean-agent contains fluorine, I am betting what is marketed as clean today will be billed more realistically after 20 years of history. If we have the courage to encourage occupants to use portables, then how fine a line is it in our minds to allow an occupant to choose to use a hose line? scot deal excelsior fire ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) -- Ron Greenman Instructor Fire Protection Engineering Technology Bates Technical College 1101 So. Yakima Ave. Tacoma, WA 98405 rgreen...@bates.ctc.edu http://www.bates.ctc.edu/fireprotection/ 253.680.7346 253.576.9700 (cell) Member: ASEE, SFPE, ASCET, NFPA, AFSA, NFSA, AFAA, NIBS, WSAFM, WFC They are happy men whose natures sort with their vocations. -Francis Bacon, essayist, philosopher, and statesman (1561-1626) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) __ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus signature database 6050 (20110417) __ The message was checked by ESET Smart Security. http://www.eset.com __ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus signature database 6050 (20110417) __ The message was checked by ESET Smart Security. http://www.eset.com ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) -- Ron Greenman Instructor Fire Protection Engineering Technology Bates Technical College 1101 So. Yakima Ave. Tacoma, WA 98405 rgreen...@bates.ctc.edu http://www.bates.ctc.edu/fireprotection/ 253.680.7346 253.576.9700 (cell) Member: ASEE, SFPE, ASCET, NFPA, AFSA, NFSA, AFAA, NIBS, WSAFM, WFC They are happy men whose natures sort with their vocations. -Francis Bacon, essayist, philosopher, and statesman (1561-1626) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list
Re: Extinguisher Effectiveness
That's why I spent 20 years of my life training people to use fire extinguishers - train them at work, save them at home. I even trained expat kids in Hong Kong and Saudi Arabia. Of course sprinklers are the ideal but what percentage of US homes have them - and you have installing them for 40 years - we've only be doing it for 15. Stewart On 17 Apr 2011, at 17:24, Ron Greenman wrote: Stewart, Just my advice. Ever watch someone with no training fiddle for many seconds just trying to break the seal and then shooting agent at the top of the flames. The intuitive thing to do is pull instead of twist and to attack the flame instead of the fuel. Unfortunately the intuitive thing is, like trying to break a fall buy putting out your hands out instead of collapsing, twisting and spreading the fall out across lots of bouncy leg, butt, and shoulder muscle instead of thin skin and inflexible bone, wrong. I've voluntarily jumped out of perfectly good airplanes, dumped motorcycles, fallen off small cliffs and roofs and have been bruised and battered but never broken. On Sun, Apr 17, 2011 at 9:07 AM, Michael Fitz mf...@mde.com wrote: Easy answer for that - I installed a sprinkler system. (And I am a fire professional) Michael M. Fitz, P.E., C.F.E.I., C.F.P.S. MDE Inc. 700 S. Industrial Way, Seattle, WA 98101 Home Office P.O. Box G, Shelton, WA 98584 206-321-1804 On 4/17/2011 9:00 AM, Stewart Kidd wrote: Ron Would this include running if you have a stove top fire in your kitchen and your house is 35 minutes response time from the nearest FD unit ? Stewart On 17 Apr 2011, at 15:55, Ron Greenman wrote: Scot, Rules of thumb I use regarding fire extinguishers: Untrained--run Trained layman--run if fire is bigger than you Trained fire professional--run, there are too few to risk/spare Firefighter--your call On Sun, Apr 17, 2011 at 3:06 AM, å... eurekaig...@gmail.com wrote: Statistics we can use...thanks for those! Fire extinguishers can work, but if the facility is valuable and not occupied 24/7... Fluorinated-foam and dry chem will be corrosive on sensitive equipment. De-ionized Water mist and clean-agent are alternatives, although if the clean-agent contains fluorine, I am betting what is marketed as clean today will be billed more realistically after 20 years of history. If we have the courage to encourage occupants to use portables, then how fine a line is it in our minds to allow an occupant to choose to use a hose line? scot deal excelsior fire ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) -- Ron Greenman Instructor Fire Protection Engineering Technology Bates Technical College 1101 So. Yakima Ave. Tacoma, WA 98405 rgreen...@bates.ctc.edu http://www.bates.ctc.edu/fireprotection/ 253.680.7346 253.576.9700 (cell) Member: ASEE, SFPE, ASCET, NFPA, AFSA, NFSA, AFAA, NIBS, WSAFM, WFC They are happy men whose natures sort with their vocations. -Francis Bacon, essayist, philosopher, and statesman (1561-1626) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) __ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus signature database 6050 (20110417) __ The message was checked by ESET Smart Security. http://www.eset.com __ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus signature database 6050 (20110417) __ The message was checked by ESET Smart Security. http://www.eset.com ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) -- Ron Greenman Instructor Fire Protection
Re: Extinguisher Effectiveness
A more important statistic that this forum should determine and use for sales work - what percentage of the members don't live in a sprinklered house and why? How can we sell it to a homeowner, contractor or city council if we don't practice what we preach? Michael M. Fitz, P.E., C.F.E.I., C.F.P.S. MDE Inc. 700 S. Industrial Way, Seattle, WA 98101 Home Office P.O. Box G, Shelton, WA 98584 206-321-1804 On 4/17/2011 2:03 PM, Stewart Kidd wrote: That's why I spent 20 years of my life training people to use fire extinguishers - train them at work, save them at home. I even trained expat kids in Hong Kong and Saudi Arabia. Of course sprinklers are the ideal but what percentage of US homes have them - and you have installing them for 40 years - we've only be doing it for 15. Stewart On 17 Apr 2011, at 17:24, Ron Greenman wrote: Stewart, Just my advice. Ever watch someone with no training fiddle for many seconds just trying to break the seal and then shooting agent at the top of the flames. The intuitive thing to do is pull instead of twist and to attack the flame instead of the fuel. Unfortunately the intuitive thing is, like trying to break a fall buy putting out your hands out instead of collapsing, twisting and spreading the fall out across lots of bouncy leg, butt, and shoulder muscle instead of thin skin and inflexible bone, wrong. I've voluntarily jumped out of perfectly good airplanes, dumped motorcycles, fallen off small cliffs and roofs and have been bruised and battered but never broken. On Sun, Apr 17, 2011 at 9:07 AM, Michael Fitzmf...@mde.com wrote: Easy answer for that - I installed a sprinkler system. (And I am a fire professional) Michael M. Fitz, P.E., C.F.E.I., C.F.P.S. MDE Inc. 700 S. Industrial Way, Seattle, WA 98101 Home Office P.O. Box G, Shelton, WA 98584 206-321-1804 On 4/17/2011 9:00 AM, Stewart Kidd wrote: Ron Would this include running if you have a stove top fire in your kitchen and your house is 35 minutes response time from the nearest FD unit ? Stewart On 17 Apr 2011, at 15:55, Ron Greenman wrote: Scot, Rules of thumb I use regarding fire extinguishers: Untrained--run Trained layman--run if fire is bigger than you Trained fire professional--run, there are too few to risk/spare Firefighter--your call __ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus signature database 6050 (20110417) __ The message was checked by ESET Smart Security. http://www.eset.com ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
Re: Extinguisher Effectiveness
Because retrofits, as you know, are very expensive, and try to get a loan for putting in sprinks. Now if I were doing a general remodel I'd certainly include them in the budget. And for me they'd be cheaper than for the many reading this. I don't know how many here can design and seal their own plans, have a materials account, and the requisite fitter's skills, or own a sprinkler company. And if a general is involved in a remodel they'll be stepping hard on the sprinklers even though they'll blame the high price on the sprinks while whining about not making money. There's a reason that when you go to get a contractor's license you have a special line to stand in (everybody else goes to a general business license line) and have to post a sudstantial bond, or why I'm right this minute listening to an LI radio ad giving me, the consumer, hints on how to keep from getting ripped off by a contractor. Hard to imagine in this age of concern for honesty integrity over greed avar ice, but it does happen. Ron Greenman ...On the phone On Apr 17, 2011, at 2:08 PM, Michael Fitz mf...@mde.com wrote: A more important statistic that this forum should determine and use for sales work - what percentage of the members don't live in a sprinklered house and why? How can we sell it to a homeowner, contractor or city council if we don't practice what we preach? Michael M. Fitz, P.E., C.F.E.I., C.F.P.S. MDE Inc. 700 S. Industrial Way, Seattle, WA 98101 Home Office P.O. Box G, Shelton, WA 98584 206-321-1804 On 4/17/2011 2:03 PM, Stewart Kidd wrote: That's why I spent 20 years of my life training people to use fire extinguishers - train them at work, save them at home. I even trained expat kids in Hong Kong and Saudi Arabia. Of course sprinklers are the ideal but what percentage of US homes have them - and you have installing them for 40 years - we've only be doing it for 15. Stewart On 17 Apr 2011, at 17:24, Ron Greenman wrote: Stewart, Just my advice. Ever watch someone with no training fiddle for many seconds just trying to break the seal and then shooting agent at the top of the flames. The intuitive thing to do is pull instead of twist and to attack the flame instead of the fuel. Unfortunately the intuitive thing is, like trying to break a fall buy putting out your hands out instead of collapsing, twisting and spreading the fall out across lots of bouncy leg, butt, and shoulder muscle instead of thin skin and inflexible bone, wrong. I've voluntarily jumped out of perfectly good airplanes, dumped motorcycles, fallen off small cliffs and roofs and have been bruised and battered but never broken. On Sun, Apr 17, 2011 at 9:07 AM, Michael Fitzmf...@mde.com wrote: Easy answer for that - I installed a sprinkler system. (And I am a fire professional) Michael M. Fitz, P.E., C.F.E.I., C.F.P.S. MDE Inc. 700 S. Industrial Way, Seattle, WA 98101 Home Office P.O. Box G, Shelton, WA 98584 206-321-1804 On 4/17/2011 9:00 AM, Stewart Kidd wrote: Ron Would this include running if you have a stove top fire in your kitchen and your house is 35 minutes response time from the nearest FD unit ? Stewart On 17 Apr 2011, at 15:55, Ron Greenman wrote: Scot, Rules of thumb I use regarding fire extinguishers: Untrained--run Trained layman--run if fire is bigger than you Trained fire professional--run, there are too few to risk/spare Firefighter--your call __ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus signature database 6050 (20110417) __ The message was checked by ESET Smart Security. http://www.eset.com ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
Re: Extinguisher Effectiveness
Stewart, Spent a lot of training time myself and it's paid off a couple of times when the twelve year old used an extinguisher on an oven fire (overkill but better safe...) and the same son about ten years later used one on a brush fire before it took off. Knocked down enough so that when my other son got some water over to the site the we were able to overhaul his work successfully. Ron Greenman ...On the phone On Apr 17, 2011, at 2:03 PM, Stewart Kidd stewart-k...@ndirect.co.uk wrote: That's why I spent 20 years of my life training people to use fire extinguishers - train them at work, save them at home. I even trained expat kids in Hong Kong and Saudi Arabia. Of course sprinklers are the ideal but what percentage of US homes have them - and you have installing them for 40 years - we've only be doing it for 15. Stewart On 17 Apr 2011, at 17:24, Ron Greenman wrote: Stewart, Just my advice. Ever watch someone with no training fiddle for many seconds just trying to break the seal and then shooting agent at the top of the flames. The intuitive thing to do is pull instead of twist and to attack the flame instead of the fuel. Unfortunately the intuitive thing is, like trying to break a fall buy putting out your hands out instead of collapsing, twisting and spreading the fall out across lots of bouncy leg, butt, and shoulder muscle instead of thin skin and inflexible bone, wrong. I've voluntarily jumped out of perfectly good airplanes, dumped motorcycles, fallen off small cliffs and roofs and have been bruised and battered but never broken. On Sun, Apr 17, 2011 at 9:07 AM, Michael Fitz mf...@mde.com wrote: Easy answer for that - I installed a sprinkler system. (And I am a fire professional) Michael M. Fitz, P.E., C.F.E.I., C.F.P.S. MDE Inc. 700 S. Industrial Way, Seattle, WA 98101 Home Office P.O. Box G, Shelton, WA 98584 206-321-1804 On 4/17/2011 9:00 AM, Stewart Kidd wrote: Ron Would this include running if you have a stove top fire in your kitchen and your house is 35 minutes response time from the nearest FD unit ? Stewart On 17 Apr 2011, at 15:55, Ron Greenman wrote: Scot, Rules of thumb I use regarding fire extinguishers: Untrained--run Trained layman--run if fire is bigger than you Trained fire professional--run, there are too few to risk/spare Firefighter--your call On Sun, Apr 17, 2011 at 3:06 AM, å... eurekaig...@gmail.com wrote: Statistics we can use...thanks for those! Fire extinguishers can work, but if the facility is valuable and not occupied 24/7... Fluorinated-foam and dry chem will be corrosive on sensitive equipment. De-ionized Water mist and clean-agent are alternatives, although if the clean-agent contains fluorine, I am betting what is marketed as clean today will be billed more realistically after 20 years of history. If we have the courage to encourage occupants to use portables, then how fine a line is it in our minds to allow an occupant to choose to use a hose line? scot deal excelsior fire ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) -- Ron Greenman Instructor Fire Protection Engineering Technology Bates Technical College 1101 So. Yakima Ave. Tacoma, WA 98405 rgreen...@bates.ctc.edu http://www.bates.ctc.edu/fireprotection/ 253.680.7346 253.576.9700 (cell) Member: ASEE, SFPE, ASCET, NFPA, AFSA, NFSA, AFAA, NIBS, WSAFM, WFC They are happy men whose natures sort with their vocations. -Francis Bacon, essayist, philosopher, and statesman (1561-1626) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) __ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus signature database 6050 (20110417) __ The message was checked by ESET Smart Security. http://www.eset.com __ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus signature database 6050 (20110417) __ The
