Re: [sqlite] "Responsive" website revamp at www.sqlite.org

[john herron]

Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android

From:"Scott Robison" 
Date:Tue, Sep 6, 2016 at 1:16 PM
Subject:Re: [sqlite] "Responsive" website revamp at www.sqlite.org

Lamding page looks fine on my Galaxy Note 4 phone and cheap Amazon Fire
tablet, both landscape and portrait. Documents by category doesn't like
portrait mode on my tablet (at least).

On Sep 6, 2016 8:38 AM, "Eric Kestler"  wrote:

> Looks quite good and is very readable on my iPhone 6s and iPad Mini 4,
> both portrait and landscape modes.
>
> ..Eric
>
> __
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> understands that Plan B involves either a large hammer or screwdriver
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Re: [sqlite] "Responsive" website revamp at www.sqlite.org

[Zsbán Ambrus]

On Mon, Sep 5, 2016 at 10:55 PM, Richard Hipp  wrote:
> Most of the world views the internet on their phone now, I am told,
> and websites are suppose to be "responsive",

Most of the changes work well as far as I've seen, but I have one
problem.  The page "http://sqlite.org/draft/docs.html; gives links
inside sections you can fold or unfold.  If I view the page with
javascript disabled but CSS rules enabled in Firefox, then all but the
first section starts as closed, and there's no obvious way to open
them, so all the links are very hard to access.  I believe the code
for the page should behave in such a way that if the page is viewed
without javascript, then all the folds start as open, and it's only
the javascript that closes them.  (Alternately, if javascript is not
loaded, the fold headers should be links that go to other pages that
show the content under that particular fold.)

The rest of this mail tries to explain how you can make the folds
start as open, but make the javascript close them if they don't load,
in a way that I believe should work on most browsers.  You probably
already know how to do that, in which case you can skip the rest of
this mail.

The CSS embedded to the HTML contains this rule:

.showhide ul {
  display: none;
  list-style-type: disc;
}

Split this to two rules as follows:

.showhide ul {
  display: none;
}
.showhide ul {
  list-style-type: disc;
}

The second rule is irrelevant here.  The first rule is what hides
links under closed folds.  Remove that first rule from the CSS
embedded in the HTML page, and put it to a separate CSS file
accessible through the server, which I'll call "sqlitejs.css" for now.
Then put the following declaration to the HTML HEAD.



This will tell the browser that this style sheet exists, but is not
used by default.  The title attribute is ignored by most browsers, but
it is needed for compatibility with some older browsers which would
enable the style sheet by default otherwise (I learned that the hard
way).

Now you want this stylesheet to be enabled if an only if the
javascript embedded in the page is loaded.  This is useful, because if
the javascript is loaded, then hopefully the user can open the folds
using it.  So append the following lines to the embedded javascript.

function initfolds() {
var ssa = document.getElementById("style_js");
ssa.disabled = false;
};
initfolds();

-- Ambrus
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Re: [sqlite] "Responsive" website revamp at www.sqlite.org

[Keith Medcalf]

I for one block all Google Analytics ...

> -Original Message-
> From: sqlite-users [mailto:sqlite-users-boun...@mailinglists.sqlite.org]
> On Behalf Of Mohit Sindhwani
> Sent: Thursday, 22 September, 2016 10:03
> To: SQLite mailing list
> Subject: Re: [sqlite] "Responsive" website revamp at www.sqlite.org
> 
> Hi Richard,
> 
> 
> On 6/9/2016 8:26 PM, Richard Hipp wrote:
> > How do I tell?
> >
> > The website saw 2748 distinct UserAgent strings within just the past
> > 24 hours (a holiday in the USA, FWIW).  How do I tell which of those
> > are bots, mobile devices, and/or desktops?
> 
> I forget how the SQLite3 website is served, but I would probably slip in
> the very simple Google Analytics Javascript so that in a few days, you
> could just log into the GA website and get a very quick idea of the
> different parameters.
> 
> Best Regards,
> Mohit.
> 
> 
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Re: [sqlite] "Responsive" website revamp at www.sqlite.org

[Mohit Sindhwani]

Hi Richard,


On 6/9/2016 8:26 PM, Richard Hipp wrote:

How do I tell?

The website saw 2748 distinct UserAgent strings within just the past
24 hours (a holiday in the USA, FWIW).  How do I tell which of those
are bots, mobile devices, and/or desktops?


I forget how the SQLite3 website is served, but I would probably slip in 
the very simple Google Analytics Javascript so that in a few days, you 
could just log into the GA website and get a very quick idea of the 
different parameters.


Best Regards,
Mohit.


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Re: [sqlite] "Responsive" website revamp at www.sqlite.org

[Mohit Sindhwani]

Hi Stephan,

On 6/9/2016 4:35 PM, Stephan Beal wrote:

On Tue, Sep 6, 2016 at 10:30 AM, Eric Grange  wrote:


A counter-opinion, though apparently in the small minority: i _absolutely
despise_ fixed-width web site layouts.

Just to clarify, this is not fixed width, but limited max width, ie. it
only kicks in when the browser window is very large. The site is fluid
(like now) at smaller widths.


And i mis-typed :/. i _despise_ both fixed widths and designer-specified
maximum widths ;). No designer on this planet knows what my screen
resolution/viewing preferences are and has no business assuming they do.
It's likely that assumption about my preferences/limits which annoys me
more than the limitation itself does.


This article makes some sweeping generalizations, but fundamentally, 
reading speed is greatly affected by how much content is in your field 
of vision:

http://www.selfgrowth.com/articles/tips_for_reading_faster_from_the_computer_screen

That said, it's probably a pretty simple piece of Javascript to allow 
font size changes and text reflow/ max width on a web page.


Best Regards,
Mohit.


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Re: [sqlite] "Responsive" website revamp at www.sqlite.org

[Stephen Chrzanowski]

I knew I had done this before.  I don't know if this is still relevant.
Tested in FF38.

I'm old skool, don't use CSS all that much, and I don't even know if this
is a CSS2 or 3 thing.  I typically do back end code, I'm no where near a UI
designer or artist.  When I do have to make a web UI, I typically put lists
of things in a table.  When I create a table, I use the following code:



What happens here is that the table is drawn, keeps to the left of the
page.  The contents can be of any width, so if you have a min width, or a
max width, slap within a TR or TD.  Any other tables that are created with
this define is kept to the right.  Any table that doesn't fit is put on a
"new line(?)" or whatever you want to call it.  Beneath the current set of
tables.

Where I copy/pasted that code from I can't give you full examples, but when
I get the chance tonight at home, I can come up with a sample if you want.

You web designers and developers can hate on me ALL you want.  I enjoy it.
;)

On Wed, Sep 7, 2016 at 1:02 PM, Richard Hipp  wrote:

> On 9/7/16, dmp  wrote:
>
> > The draft site looks and works fine, is fast for loads, doesn't
> > seem to require scripting, GOOD!
> >
>
> Sorry to disappoint, but some pages (ex:
> https://www.sqlite.org/draft/c3ref/funclist.html) use JS to split long
> lists into multiple columns.  You can see this in action by dragging
> your browser window very wide or very narrow and pressing Reload on
> the example given in the previous sentence.  If JS is disabled, the
> list will not display at all.
>
> I don't know of a way to do that using only CSS.  If you know of a
> way, please enlighten me.
> --
> D. Richard Hipp
> d...@sqlite.org
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Re: [sqlite] "Responsive" website revamp at www.sqlite.org

[Stefan Evert]

> On 6 Sep 2016, at 10:19, Stephan Beal  wrote:
> 
> A counter-opinion, though apparently in the small minority: i _absolutely
> despise_ fixed-width web site layouts.

+1, including layouts with fixed maximum width.


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Re: [sqlite] "Responsive" website revamp at www.sqlite.org

[Bob McFarlane]

Please reply if you sent this. Thanks.





-Original Message-
From: sqlite-users [mailto:sqlite-users-boun...@mailinglists.sqlite.org] On
Behalf Of Chris Locke
Sent: Tuesday, September 6, 2016 8:54 AM
To: SQLite mailing list <sqlite-users@mailinglists.sqlite.org>
Subject: Re: [sqlite] "Responsive" website revamp at www.sqlite.org

Makes perfect sense.  Thanks.


Chris

On Tue, Sep 6, 2016 at 12:26 PM, Richard Hipp <d...@sqlite.org> wrote:

> On 9/6/16, Chris Locke <ch...@chrisjlocke.co.uk> wrote:
> > When reducing the size of the browser (on Chrome desktop at least)
> > the
> '***
> > DRAFT ***' tag disappears.  Rather than disappears, maybe this
> > should be reduced in size and always be visible?
> > Edit: Noticed its right at the bottom of the page, regardless of
> > size,
> but
> > not at the top.  Is this by design?
>
> By design.  There simply is not space.
>
> Note that when not in draft mode, the "*** DRAFT ***" text becomes the
> tag-line:  "Small. Fast. Reliable.  Choose any three!"  There is no
> way to fit that on a 320-pixel wide screen, together with the logo,
> and make it readable.  It is not essential information so it is
> elided.
>
> > Additionally, on the menu, the 'Download' option is not visible at all.
> >
>
> By design.  There is nothing on the Download page that is useful to a
> mobile device.  So links to that page are omitted on mobile, to save
> precious pixels.
>
> --
> D. Richard Hipp
> d...@sqlite.org
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Re: [sqlite] "Responsive" website revamp at www.sqlite.org

[Chris Locke]

Makes perfect sense.  Thanks.


Chris

On Tue, Sep 6, 2016 at 12:26 PM, Richard Hipp  wrote:

> On 9/6/16, Chris Locke  wrote:
> > When reducing the size of the browser (on Chrome desktop at least) the
> '***
> > DRAFT ***' tag disappears.  Rather than disappears, maybe this should be
> > reduced in size and always be visible?
> > Edit: Noticed its right at the bottom of the page, regardless of size,
> but
> > not at the top.  Is this by design?
>
> By design.  There simply is not space.
>
> Note that when not in draft mode, the "*** DRAFT ***" text becomes the
> tag-line:  "Small. Fast. Reliable.  Choose any three!"  There is no
> way to fit that on a 320-pixel wide screen, together with the logo,
> and make it readable.  It is not essential information so it is
> elided.
>
> > Additionally, on the menu, the 'Download' option is not visible at all.
> >
>
> By design.  There is nothing on the Download page that is useful to a
> mobile device.  So links to that page are omitted on mobile, to save
> precious pixels.
>
> --
> D. Richard Hipp
> d...@sqlite.org
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Re: [sqlite] "Responsive" website revamp at www.sqlite.org

[Warren Young]

On Sep 7, 2016, at 11:02 AM, Richard Hipp  wrote:
> 
> On 9/7/16, dmp  wrote:
> 
>> The draft site looks and works fine, is fast for loads, doesn't
>> seem to require scripting, GOOD!
> 
> Sorry to disappoint, but some pages (ex:
> https://www.sqlite.org/draft/c3ref/funclist.html) use JS to split long
> lists into multiple columns.  You can see this in action by dragging
> your browser window very wide or very narrow and pressing Reload on
> the example given in the previous sentence.  If JS is disabled, the
> list will not display at all.
> 
> I don't know of a way to do that using only CSS.  If you know of a
> way, please enlighten me.

There is, but it requires using a feature of CSS3 that isn’t universally 
deployed yet, particularly among the benighted IE users:

  https://responsivedesign.is/develop/css/css3-multiple-columns
  http://caniuse.com/#feat=multicolumn

If you don’t want to use that, then may I suggest that you attach the layout 
reflow to the window.onresize event, so you don’t have to reload the page for 
the layout to reflow?

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Re: [sqlite] "Responsive" website revamp at www.sqlite.org

[Richard Hipp]

On 9/7/16, dmp  wrote:

> The draft site looks and works fine, is fast for loads, doesn't
> seem to require scripting, GOOD!
>

Sorry to disappoint, but some pages (ex:
https://www.sqlite.org/draft/c3ref/funclist.html) use JS to split long
lists into multiple columns.  You can see this in action by dragging
your browser window very wide or very narrow and pressing Reload on
the example given in the previous sentence.  If JS is disabled, the
list will not display at all.

I don't know of a way to do that using only CSS.  If you know of a
way, please enlighten me.
-- 
D. Richard Hipp
d...@sqlite.org
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Re: [sqlite] "Responsive" website revamp at www.sqlite.org

[dmp]

I'm not interested in mobile browsing, just that the site is
still acceptable after changes for desktop. I use unconventional
browsers included one of my own design.

The draft site looks and works fine, is fast for loads, doesn't
seem to require scripting, GOOD!

danap.

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Re: [sqlite] "Responsive" website revamp at www.sqlite.org

[Dominique Devienne]

On Mon, Sep 5, 2016 at 10:55 PM, Richard Hipp  wrote:

> Most of the world views the internet on their phone now, I am told,
> and websites are suppose to be "responsive", meaning that they
> reformat themselves to be attractive and useful for the majority who
> view them through a 320x480 pixel soda-straw.  In an effort to conform
> to this trend, I have made some changes to the *draft* SQLite website
> (http://sqlite.org/draft) Your feedback on these changes is
> appreciated.  Please be sure to try out the new design both on a
> narrow-screen phone and on a traditional desktop browser.  The goal is
> to provide a more mobile-friendly website without reducing the
> information content available to desktop users.


FWIW, I tried it on my 240x320 phone running Android 2.3 [1],
and a retina iPad. Many little things don't work too well on the phone,
like using a 2-columns layout with API names on the left (single line),
and mulit-line description on the right. Lots of whitespice below the
former,
and truncated text on the right for the latter. Also the initial page load,
and a pinch-to-zoom-out leads to different text sizes, weird. Impossible
to go back to initial page size, which also has a hidden RHS margin one
can H-scroll (before zooming out), and which contains text later below
in the page. Also the hidden TOC closed icon/char is a square (missing char
IMHO)
while the open one is the down-triangle as expected.

On the Retina iPad, the original site's fine, and actually looked better
IMHO.
On the Draft one, the 3-columns API list in cintro becomes 2-columns,
some paragraphs no longer align on the same vertical, little things like
that.
But overall both versions are functional, it's just my impression the new
one
doesn't bring bring anything, and on the contrary adds tiny/harmless
"style regressions" (but it's really just a taste and attention to detail
thing).
FWIW, I often read the SQLite side on that iPad.

That 5-years old phone is smaller that your minimum size, but despite the
weirdness I describe above, one can still access the content, and to be
honest
I never tried to current site on it :). Tried it only because you asked.
--DD

[1] http://www.gsmarena.com/samsung_galaxy_mini_s5570-3725.php
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Re: [sqlite] "Responsive" website revamp at www.sqlite.org

[Scott Robison]

I saw no page content below "Documents By Category". If I rotated it to
landscape the content was there, but it didn't render.

I'll be able to go more in depth later, not at home with the tablet at the
moment.

On Sep 6, 2016 12:37 PM, "Richard Hipp"  wrote:

> On 9/6/16, Scott Robison  wrote:
> > Documents by category doesn't like
> > portrait mode on my tablet (at least).
>
> What's it doing wrong?
>
> --
> D. Richard Hipp
> d...@sqlite.org
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Re: [sqlite] "Responsive" website revamp at www.sqlite.org

[Graham Holden]

From a quick skim, looks pretty good on an original Samsung Note (both
landscape and portrait).

Kudos for keeping code-blocks from wrapping.

If I had to have a minor nitpick, the text goes right up to the left
and right edges of the screen: a couple of pixels of margin --
especially on the left -- would I think help. 

Obligatory typo:
Under "High Concurrency" of the "Appropriate Uses For SQLite" page you
have "Writer queue up. Each application does...". At a minimum it
should be "Writers"; possibly "Writers queue up, each...".

Regards,
Graham Holden



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Re: [sqlite] "Responsive" website revamp at www.sqlite.org

[Richard Hipp]

On 9/6/16, Scott Robison  wrote:
> Documents by category doesn't like
> portrait mode on my tablet (at least).

What's it doing wrong?

-- 
D. Richard Hipp
d...@sqlite.org
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Re: [sqlite] "Responsive" website revamp at www.sqlite.org

[Scott Robison]

Lamding page looks fine on my Galaxy Note 4 phone and cheap Amazon Fire
tablet, both landscape and portrait. Documents by category doesn't like
portrait mode on my tablet (at least).

On Sep 6, 2016 8:38 AM, "Eric Kestler"  wrote:

> Looks quite good and is very readable on my iPhone 6s and iPad Mini 4,
> both portrait and landscape modes.
>
> ..Eric
>
> __
> Plan A is always more effective when the device you are working on
> understands that Plan B involves either a large hammer or screwdriver
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Re: [sqlite] "Responsive" website revamp at www.sqlite.org

[Eric Kestler]

Looks quite good and is very readable on my iPhone 6s and iPad Mini 4, both 
portrait and landscape modes.

..Eric

__
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that Plan B involves either a large hammer or screwdriver
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Re: [sqlite] "Responsive" website revamp at www.sqlite.org

[Simon Slavin]

On 6 Sep 2016, at 1:03pm, Nelson, Erik - 2  
wrote:

> What percentage of sqlite.org hits are mobile browsers?  I agree there's 
> nothing of use to a mobile device on the download page, and it seems like 
> mobile devices (at least ones with small screens) are not well suited to 
> reading technical documentation, no matter how 'responsive'.

Tablets.  Tablets running Android or iOS.  I'm programmers who have their 
development environment taking up their computer display and when they need to 
look up documentation (either formal documentation or googling something) they 
do it on a tablet so it doesn't mess with their display layout.  It is a low 
proportion, though, as you point out.

As for download links on the homepage, the navigation bar is still there.  If 
someone on a mobile OS really wants the download page, they can find it.  But 
it might be an idea to add an explicit 'Download' link to the 'Common Links' 
list on the homepage, rather than just include it as the first step of 'Getting 
Started'.

Simon.
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Re: [sqlite] "Responsive" website revamp at www.sqlite.org

[Richard Hipp]

On 9/6/16, Richard Hipp  wrote:
> On 9/6/16, Nelson, Erik - 2  wrote:
>>
>> What percentage of sqlite.org hits are mobile browsers?
>
> Rough breakdown:  4% mobile, 6% bots, 90% desktop.

Emphasis on *rough*.  When I compute the number of bots using a better
algorithm, I get twice as many.  (The numbers above come from an SQL
query with a long "WHERE agent LIKE '%..%' OR agent LIKE '%...%' OR
agent LIKE '%..%' ..." phrase.)  Assuming mobile is similarly
under-counted, a better estimate might be:

   8% mobile, 12% bots, 80% desktop

-- 
D. Richard Hipp
d...@sqlite.org
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Re: [sqlite] "Responsive" website revamp at www.sqlite.org

[Jonathan Moules]

I'm not aware of any log files that record screen size.

Screen size works well at render time using JavaScript (how Bootstrap etc work 
I believe), but for this sort of post-event analysis, user-agent is pretty much 
the only information there is to work with - with the caveat that as Stephen 
Beal noted - it's unreliable.


 On Tue, 06 Sep 2016 13:43:02 +0100 Marco Bambinima...@sqlabs.net 
wrote  

You could just filter by screen size instead of user agent.
--
Marco Bambini
http://www.sqlabs.com
http://twitter.com/sqlabs
http://instagram.com/sqlabs


 On 06 Sep 2016, at 14:26, Richard Hipp d...@sqlite.org wrote:
 
 On 9/6/16, Nelson, Erik - 2 erik.l.nel...@bankofamerica.com wrote:
 
 What percentage of sqlite.org hits are mobile browsers?
 
 How do I tell?
 
 The website saw 2748 distinct UserAgent strings within just the past
 24 hours (a holiday in the USA, FWIW). How do I tell which of those
 are bots, mobile devices, and/or desktops?
 
 -- 
 D. Richard Hipp
 d...@sqlite.org
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Re: [sqlite] "Responsive" website revamp at www.sqlite.org

[Neville Dastur]

That seems to be the way to do it these days. I think generally accepted trying 
to detect browsers doesn’t work.
BTW have you looked at http://www.cascade-framework.com/ 

No affiliation and I thought it might tickle people as the strapline is 
“putting the c back into css”

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> On 6 Sep 2016, at 13:43, Marco Bambini  wrote:
> 
> You could just filter by screen size instead of user agent.
> --
> Marco Bambini
> http://www.sqlabs.com
> http://twitter.com/sqlabs
> http://instagram.com/sqlabs
> 
> 
>> On 06 Sep 2016, at 14:26, Richard Hipp  wrote:
>> 
>> On 9/6/16, Nelson, Erik - 2  wrote:
>>> 
>>> What percentage of sqlite.org hits are mobile browsers?
>> 
>> How do I tell?
>> 
>> The website saw 2748 distinct UserAgent strings within just the past
>> 24 hours (a holiday in the USA, FWIW).  How do I tell which of those
>> are bots, mobile devices, and/or desktops?
>> 
>> -- 
>> D. Richard Hipp
>> d...@sqlite.org
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Re: [sqlite] "Responsive" website revamp at www.sqlite.org

[Richard Hipp]

On 9/6/16, Nelson, Erik - 2  wrote:
>
> What percentage of sqlite.org hits are mobile browsers?

Rough breakdown:  4% mobile, 6% bots, 90% desktop.

-- 
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d...@sqlite.org
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Re: [sqlite] "Responsive" website revamp at www.sqlite.org

[Dominique Devienne]

On Tue, Sep 6, 2016 at 2:43 PM, Marco Bambini  wrote:

> You could just filter by screen size instead of user agent.
>

My 27" monitor has fewer pixels than many modern 5" to 6" QHD phones and
phablets.

It's the DPI that counts most, and you can't get the know it apparently
[1]. Some phones exceed 500 DPIs these days. --DD

[1]
http://programmers.stackexchange.com/questions/233648/why-dont-http-headers-include-device-resolution-pixel-density-etc
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Re: [sqlite] "Responsive" website revamp at www.sqlite.org

[Marco Bambini]

You could just filter by screen size instead of user agent.
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> On 06 Sep 2016, at 14:26, Richard Hipp  wrote:
> 
> On 9/6/16, Nelson, Erik - 2  wrote:
>> 
>> What percentage of sqlite.org hits are mobile browsers?
> 
> How do I tell?
> 
> The website saw 2748 distinct UserAgent strings within just the past
> 24 hours (a holiday in the USA, FWIW).  How do I tell which of those
> are bots, mobile devices, and/or desktops?
> 
> -- 
> D. Richard Hipp
> d...@sqlite.org
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Re: [sqlite] "Responsive" website revamp at www.sqlite.org

[Richard Hipp]

On 9/6/16, OBones  wrote:
> Richard Hipp wrote:
>> On 9/6/16, Chris Locke  wrote:
>>> Additionally, on the menu, the 'Download' option is not visible at all.
>>>
>> By design.  There is nothing on the Download page that is useful to a
>> mobile device.  So links to that page are omitted on mobile, to save
>> precious pixels.
>>
> Unless you use the mobile phone to download the package and then as usb
> key to place it on the final device.

My original statement above was imprecise.  I did not remove *all*
links to the Download page from mobile - just the menubar link.

The download page is still accessible.  Select "Search" on the menu
bar, type in "download" (or some other appropriate keyword, depending
on what you want to download) then press "Go".

The download page is also available via links.  For example, there is
a link to the Download page near the top of the GettingStarted page,
which is linked from the Home page.  There are eight other links to
the Download page elsewhere within the site.

Getting to Download is a few extra steps on mobile.  But coping with a
reduced pixel count is all about prioritizing information.
-- 
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d...@sqlite.org
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Re: [sqlite] "Responsive" website revamp at www.sqlite.org

[Jonathan Moules]

This page may have the solution:
http://detectmobilebrowsers.com/
There are a bunch of scripts in different languages to detect if the user is on 
a mobile or not using some absurdly complicated RegExps.

I've not tried them myself, but they look like they do the right kind of thing.
 On Tue, 06 Sep 2016 13:26:17 +0100 Richard Hippd...@sqlite.org 
wrote  

On 9/6/16, Nelson, Erik - 2 erik.l.nel...@bankofamerica.com wrote:

 What percentage of sqlite.org hits are mobile browsers?

How do I tell?

The website saw 2748 distinct UserAgent strings within just the past
24 hours (a holiday in the USA, FWIW). How do I tell which of those
are bots, mobile devices, and/or desktops?

-- 
D. Richard Hipp
d...@sqlite.org
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Re: [sqlite] "Responsive" website revamp at www.sqlite.org

[Stephan Beal]

On Tue, Sep 6, 2016 at 2:26 PM, Richard Hipp  wrote:

> On 9/6/16, Nelson, Erik - 2  wrote:
> >
> > What percentage of sqlite.org hits are mobile browsers?
>
> How do I tell?
>
> The website saw 2748 distinct UserAgent strings within just the past
> 24 hours (a holiday in the USA, FWIW).  How do I tell which of those
> are bots, mobile devices, and/or desktops?
>
>
Two projects i've worked on the past few years have tasked me with figuring
that out. The answer is, unfortunately, that it cannot be done anywhere
near reliably. They are free-form strings, often intentionally obfuscated
(MSIE does this now, we recently discovered, presumably to try to keep
people from implementing IE-specific workarounds).

-- 
- stephan beal
http://wanderinghorse.net/home/stephan/
"Freedom is sloppy. But since tyranny's the only guaranteed byproduct of
those who insist on a perfect world, freedom will have to do." -- Bigby Wolf
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Re: [sqlite] "Responsive" website revamp at www.sqlite.org

[Richard Hipp]

On 9/6/16, Nelson, Erik - 2  wrote:
>
> What percentage of sqlite.org hits are mobile browsers?

How do I tell?

The website saw 2748 distinct UserAgent strings within just the past
24 hours (a holiday in the USA, FWIW).  How do I tell which of those
are bots, mobile devices, and/or desktops?

-- 
D. Richard Hipp
d...@sqlite.org
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Re: [sqlite] "Responsive" website revamp at www.sqlite.org

[OBones]

Richard Hipp wrote:

On 9/6/16, Chris Locke  wrote:

Additionally, on the menu, the 'Download' option is not visible at all.


By design.  There is nothing on the Download page that is useful to a
mobile device.  So links to that page are omitted on mobile, to save
precious pixels.

Unless you use the mobile phone to download the package and then as usb 
key to place it on the final device.

And no, using the modem mode is not always feasible on those devices.

That's why I hate it when I have to use the "view as on a computer" mode 
in the Firefox mobile browser because the designer thought that I don't 
need something while I'm on my phone...

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Re: [sqlite] "Responsive" website revamp at www.sqlite.org

[Nelson, Erik - 2]

Richard Hipp wrote on Tuesday, September 06, 2016 7:26 AM

>There is nothing on the Download page that is useful to a mobile device.
>So links to that page are omitted on mobile, to save precious pixels.

What percentage of sqlite.org hits are mobile browsers?  I agree there's 
nothing of use to a mobile device on the download page, and it seems like 
mobile devices (at least ones with small screens) are not well suited to 
reading technical documentation, no matter how 'responsive'.

Erik

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Re: [sqlite] "Responsive" website revamp at www.sqlite.org

[Richard Hipp]

On 9/6/16, Chris Locke  wrote:
> When reducing the size of the browser (on Chrome desktop at least) the '***
> DRAFT ***' tag disappears.  Rather than disappears, maybe this should be
> reduced in size and always be visible?
> Edit: Noticed its right at the bottom of the page, regardless of size, but
> not at the top.  Is this by design?

By design.  There simply is not space.

Note that when not in draft mode, the "*** DRAFT ***" text becomes the
tag-line:  "Small. Fast. Reliable.  Choose any three!"  There is no
way to fit that on a 320-pixel wide screen, together with the logo,
and make it readable.  It is not essential information so it is
elided.

> Additionally, on the menu, the 'Download' option is not visible at all.
>

By design.  There is nothing on the Download page that is useful to a
mobile device.  So links to that page are omitted on mobile, to save
precious pixels.

-- 
D. Richard Hipp
d...@sqlite.org
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Re: [sqlite] "Responsive" website revamp at www.sqlite.org

[Chris Locke]

When reducing the size of the browser (on Chrome desktop at least) the '***
DRAFT ***' tag disappears.  Rather than disappears, maybe this should be
reduced in size and always be visible?
Edit: Noticed its right at the bottom of the page, regardless of size, but
not at the top.  Is this by design?
Additionally, on the menu, the 'Download' option is not visible at all.


Thanks,
Chris


On Mon, Sep 5, 2016 at 10:56 PM, Delvin <nooneimportant4...@gmail.com>
wrote:

> The site seems to be quite readable - I did notice that the text appears
> larger in landscape mode but it seems to appear quite readable in portrait
> mode (I viewed it with an iPhone 4S and an iPod Touch.
>
> -Original Message-
> From: sqlite-users [mailto:sqlite-users-boun...@mailinglists.sqlite.org]
> On Behalf Of Darren Duncan
> Sent: Monday, 5 September, 2016 16:28
> To: SQLite mailing list <sqlite-users@mailinglists.sqlite.org>
> Subject: Re: [sqlite] "Responsive" website revamp at www.sqlite.org
>
> On 2016-09-05 1:55 PM, Richard Hipp wrote:
> > Most of the world views the internet on their phone now, I am told,
> > and websites are suppose to be "responsive", meaning that they
> > reformat themselves to be attractive and useful for the majority who
> > view them through a 320x480 pixel soda-straw.  In an effort to conform
> > to this trend, I have made some changes to the *draft* SQLite website
> > (http://sqlite.org/draft) Your feedback on these changes is
> > appreciated.  Please be sure to try out the new design both on a
> > narrow-screen phone and on a traditional desktop browser.  The goal is
> > to provide a more mobile-friendly website without reducing the
> > information content available to desktop users.
>
> Superficially the altered site looks like an improvement.  It uses the
> simple and standard "viewport" declaration to achieve the low-hanging
> fruit.  Text is readable on my phone as with my computer at its default
> size while loading.
> Site still seems navigatable.  I didn't go very far though. -- Darren
> Duncan
>
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Re: [sqlite] "Responsive" website revamp at www.sqlite.org

[Tim Streater]

On 06 Sep 2016 at 11:02, Eric Grange  wrote: 

> Well, I guess I am in the minority using a tabbed browser then :)
>
> In tabbed browsers, all browser tabs share the same window width, and it is
> quite impractical to resize the browser every time you switch a tab.

Yes, I do the same. I have three Safari windows open, typically, each with 
several tabs. One for general browsing (BBC News, Twitter, etc), and each of 
the others is project specific with some number of tabs open. And I use a cheap 
clamshell mobile phone which is normally switched off, so the issue being 
debated doesn't really affect me except to the extent that I wouldn't want the 
SQLite site to look worse on a desktop.

Is there a reason why some of the links on the front page of the draft site 
have been styled to look like buttons? A button, IMO, should do something, not 
take you somewhere.

--
Cheers  --  Tim
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Re: [sqlite] "Responsive" website revamp at www.sqlite.org

[Eric Grange]

Well, I guess I am in the minority using a tabbed browser then :)

In tabbed browsers, all browser tabs share the same window width, and it is
quite impractical to resize the browser every time you switch a tab.

On Tue, Sep 6, 2016 at 11:06 AM, R Smith  wrote:

>
>
> On 2016/09/06 10:19 AM, Stephan Beal wrote:
>
>> On Tue, Sep 6, 2016 at 10:15 AM, Eric Grange  wrote:
>>
>> However, while you are at it, an improvement for the website when browsed
>>> from a computer would be to limit the max width of the pages, especially
>>> for the documentation pages. Currently if you have a big screen the lines
>>> of text stretch to the whole browser width, which is not very readable.
>>>
>>> A counter-opinion, though apparently in the small minority: i _absolutely
>> despise_ fixed-width web site layouts.
>>
>>
> I'm afraid I'm with Mr. Beal on this - Windows (for all its faults) lets
> me drag the size of a window (including browser windows) to whatever I like
> them to be. It feels extremely presumptuous of a web-site (or its designer)
> to decide that I am incapable of picking a size that "reads well". I think
> the convention has merit for people who simply clicks the little "Maximize"
> button and then expects to see content that is easy to read. That's
> laziness in my opinion, but I'm not judging, just don't want them to decide
> my read-width.
>
> Catering for user who don't know how to use computers is a bit of an Apple
> thing (and sadly lately a bit of a Windows thing too), luckily Linux still
> thinks I am the boss. I don't mind that these conventions exist to help
> those folks, I just wish I had the choice... always.
>
>
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Re: [sqlite] "Responsive" website revamp at www.sqlite.org

[R Smith]

On 2016/09/06 10:19 AM, Stephan Beal wrote:

On Tue, Sep 6, 2016 at 10:15 AM, Eric Grange  wrote:


However, while you are at it, an improvement for the website when browsed
from a computer would be to limit the max width of the pages, especially
for the documentation pages. Currently if you have a big screen the lines
of text stretch to the whole browser width, which is not very readable.


A counter-opinion, though apparently in the small minority: i _absolutely
despise_ fixed-width web site layouts.



I'm afraid I'm with Mr. Beal on this - Windows (for all its faults) lets 
me drag the size of a window (including browser windows) to whatever I 
like them to be. It feels extremely presumptuous of a web-site (or its 
designer) to decide that I am incapable of picking a size that "reads 
well". I think the convention has merit for people who simply clicks the 
little "Maximize" button and then expects to see content that is easy to 
read. That's laziness in my opinion, but I'm not judging, just don't 
want them to decide my read-width.


Catering for user who don't know how to use computers is a bit of an 
Apple thing (and sadly lately a bit of a Windows thing too), luckily 
Linux still thinks I am the boss. I don't mind that these conventions 
exist to help those folks, I just wish I had the choice... always.


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Re: [sqlite] "Responsive" website revamp at www.sqlite.org

[Olivier Mascia]

> Le 6 sept. 2016 à 10:19, Stephan Beal  a écrit :
> 
>> However, while you are at it, an improvement for the website when browsed
>> from a computer would be to limit the max width of the pages, especially
>> for the documentation pages. Currently if you have a big screen the lines
>> of text stretch to the whole browser width, which is not very readable.
>> 
> 
> A counter-opinion, though apparently in the small minority: i _absolutely
> despise_ fixed-width web site layouts.

Along a similar line, I tend to never use my browsers full screen or full width 
on desktops but adjust the window size to whatever suits me for comfort of 
reading. I'm not sure — but I'm rather from old school surely — that it is in 
the hyper-text original concepts to impose a reading width on me.  In my book, 
the purpose of a technical hyper-text as sqlite.org is to provide content, and 
leave the overall formatting of this the viewer (the user and his/her browser).

I welcome the changes made on the draft site, because things set to display 
sideways on larger displays are configured to display in-line (like menus of 
shortcuts) when using a (much) smaller screen.  That is positive.  As well 
reducing the margins on text on those small displays is just fine. Going 
farther by imposing a maximum line width on larger displays, especially if 
expressing this using such a weird unit as pixels, doesn't feel right for 
sqlite.org content.

I wouldn't say the same for the a marketing website, heavily built of highly 
graphical content.

-- 
Meilleures salutations, Met vriendelijke groeten, Best Regards,
Olivier Mascia, integral.be/om


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Re: [sqlite] "Responsive" website revamp at www.sqlite.org

[Stephan Beal]

On Tue, Sep 6, 2016 at 10:30 AM, Eric Grange  wrote:

> > A counter-opinion, though apparently in the small minority: i _absolutely
> > despise_ fixed-width web site layouts.
>
> Just to clarify, this is not fixed width, but limited max width, ie. it
> only kicks in when the browser window is very large. The site is fluid
> (like now) at smaller widths.
>

And i mis-typed :/. i _despise_ both fixed widths and designer-specified
maximum widths ;). No designer on this planet knows what my screen
resolution/viewing preferences are and has no business assuming they do.
It's likely that assumption about my preferences/limits which annoys me
more than the limitation itself does.

-- 
- stephan beal
http://wanderinghorse.net/home/stephan/
"Freedom is sloppy. But since tyranny's the only guaranteed byproduct of
those who insist on a perfect world, freedom will have to do." -- Bigby Wolf
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Re: [sqlite] "Responsive" website revamp at www.sqlite.org

[Eric Grange]

> A counter-opinion, though apparently in the small minority: i _absolutely
> despise_ fixed-width web site layouts.

Just to clarify, this is not fixed width, but limited max width, ie. it
only kicks in when the browser window is very large. The site is fluid
(like now) at smaller widths.

On Tue, Sep 6, 2016 at 10:19 AM, Stephan Beal  wrote:

> On Tue, Sep 6, 2016 at 10:15 AM, Eric Grange  wrote:
>
> > However, while you are at it, an improvement for the website when browsed
> > from a computer would be to limit the max width of the pages, especially
> > for the documentation pages. Currently if you have a big screen the lines
> > of text stretch to the whole browser width, which is not very readable.
> >
>
> A counter-opinion, though apparently in the small minority: i _absolutely
> despise_ fixed-width web site layouts.
>
> --
> - stephan beal
> http://wanderinghorse.net/home/stephan/
> "Freedom is sloppy. But since tyranny's the only guaranteed byproduct of
> those who insist on a perfect world, freedom will have to do." -- Bigby
> Wolf
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Re: [sqlite] "Responsive" website revamp at www.sqlite.org

[Stephan Beal]

On Tue, Sep 6, 2016 at 10:15 AM, Eric Grange  wrote:

> However, while you are at it, an improvement for the website when browsed
> from a computer would be to limit the max width of the pages, especially
> for the documentation pages. Currently if you have a big screen the lines
> of text stretch to the whole browser width, which is not very readable.
>

A counter-opinion, though apparently in the small minority: i _absolutely
despise_ fixed-width web site layouts.

-- 
- stephan beal
http://wanderinghorse.net/home/stephan/
"Freedom is sloppy. But since tyranny's the only guaranteed byproduct of
those who insist on a perfect world, freedom will have to do." -- Bigby Wolf
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Re: [sqlite] "Responsive" website revamp at www.sqlite.org

[Eric Grange]

Seems to be fine from here, and probably not too critical, as not all
websites have a purpose on mobile devices.

However, while you are at it, an improvement for the website when browsed
from a computer would be to limit the max width of the pages, especially
for the documentation pages. Currently if you have a big screen the lines
of text stretch to the whole browser width, which is not very readable.

For instance right now you have something like
   http://imgur.com/a/nRfno
IMHO it would be more readable as
   http://imgur.com/a/EkKZA

Above I just added "max-width:1100px" and "margin:auto" to the body style.

And for those that do not like the extra white, it can be skinned to gray
as in http://imgur.com/a/1tRMR with just the following CSS (and hopefully
there are some that could contribute even better skins)

html {
background: #eee;
}
body {
background: #fff;
padding: 0 2em;
box-shadow: 0 0 .3em #888;
margin-top: .5em;
}

Eric

On Tue, Sep 6, 2016 at 2:32 AM, Stephen Chrzanowski 
wrote:

> I have my ancient Galaxy S (Original
> ) Android hanging
> here on my desk, and I pulled up the draft page, and it looks good.
>
> With respect, Dr. Hipp, I really do hope you weren't REALLY pressured into
> this (And the analogy between the soda-straw compared against my desktops
> 5-monitor setup is the absolute truth), and this is just more of a side
> project or an itch to scratch to give the site a refresh.  If so, good
> work, for the *MANY* people who use sqlite.org as a reference point, and I
> guess it'll be worth while for the 5 people who use their phones to look up
> information rather than use a desktop computer they do their development
> on. ;)
>
> On Mon, Sep 5, 2016 at 4:55 PM, Richard Hipp  wrote:
>
> > Most of the world views the internet on their phone now, I am told,
> > and websites are suppose to be "responsive", meaning that they
> > reformat themselves to be attractive and useful for the majority who
> > view them through a 320x480 pixel soda-straw.  In an effort to conform
> > to this trend, I have made some changes to the *draft* SQLite website
> > (http://sqlite.org/draft) Your feedback on these changes is
> > appreciated.  Please be sure to try out the new design both on a
> > narrow-screen phone and on a traditional desktop browser.  The goal is
> > to provide a more mobile-friendly website without reducing the
> > information content available to desktop users.
> >
> > --
> > D. Richard Hipp
> > d...@sqlite.org
> > ___
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Re: [sqlite] "Responsive" website revamp at www.sqlite.org

[Stephen Chrzanowski]

I have my ancient Galaxy S (Original
) Android hanging
here on my desk, and I pulled up the draft page, and it looks good.

With respect, Dr. Hipp, I really do hope you weren't REALLY pressured into
this (And the analogy between the soda-straw compared against my desktops
5-monitor setup is the absolute truth), and this is just more of a side
project or an itch to scratch to give the site a refresh.  If so, good
work, for the *MANY* people who use sqlite.org as a reference point, and I
guess it'll be worth while for the 5 people who use their phones to look up
information rather than use a desktop computer they do their development
on. ;)

On Mon, Sep 5, 2016 at 4:55 PM, Richard Hipp  wrote:

> Most of the world views the internet on their phone now, I am told,
> and websites are suppose to be "responsive", meaning that they
> reformat themselves to be attractive and useful for the majority who
> view them through a 320x480 pixel soda-straw.  In an effort to conform
> to this trend, I have made some changes to the *draft* SQLite website
> (http://sqlite.org/draft) Your feedback on these changes is
> appreciated.  Please be sure to try out the new design both on a
> narrow-screen phone and on a traditional desktop browser.  The goal is
> to provide a more mobile-friendly website without reducing the
> information content available to desktop users.
>
> --
> D. Richard Hipp
> d...@sqlite.org
> ___
> sqlite-users mailing list
> sqlite-users@mailinglists.sqlite.org
> http://mailinglists.sqlite.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/sqlite-users
>
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Re: [sqlite] "Responsive" website revamp at www.sqlite.org

[Donald Griggs]

At first blush, looks good on my Zenfone 2 under android 5.0 with chrome
and on laptop with Windoze 10 and chrome.

In the interest of "dotting all the i's" I noted a misspelling in the
initial sentence:
 "SQLite is a high-reliablity,"
for reliability.
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Re: [sqlite] "Responsive" website revamp at www.sqlite.org

[Delvin]

The site seems to be quite readable - I did notice that the text appears larger 
in landscape mode but it seems to appear quite readable in portrait mode (I 
viewed it with an iPhone 4S and an iPod Touch.

-Original Message-
From: sqlite-users [mailto:sqlite-users-boun...@mailinglists.sqlite.org] On 
Behalf Of Darren Duncan
Sent: Monday, 5 September, 2016 16:28
To: SQLite mailing list <sqlite-users@mailinglists.sqlite.org>
Subject: Re: [sqlite] "Responsive" website revamp at www.sqlite.org

On 2016-09-05 1:55 PM, Richard Hipp wrote:
> Most of the world views the internet on their phone now, I am told, 
> and websites are suppose to be "responsive", meaning that they 
> reformat themselves to be attractive and useful for the majority who 
> view them through a 320x480 pixel soda-straw.  In an effort to conform 
> to this trend, I have made some changes to the *draft* SQLite website
> (http://sqlite.org/draft) Your feedback on these changes is 
> appreciated.  Please be sure to try out the new design both on a 
> narrow-screen phone and on a traditional desktop browser.  The goal is 
> to provide a more mobile-friendly website without reducing the 
> information content available to desktop users.

Superficially the altered site looks like an improvement.  It uses the simple 
and standard "viewport" declaration to achieve the low-hanging fruit.  Text is 
readable on my phone as with my computer at its default size while loading. 
Site still seems navigatable.  I didn't go very far though. -- Darren Duncan

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Re: [sqlite] "Responsive" website revamp at www.sqlite.org

[Scott Doctor]

For my current website, I tested various techniques so that my 
website renders properly on a phone and a large desktop monitor. 
Most smart phones have a landscape resolution of at least 1024 
pixels, most newer phones are much higher. I found that 950 
pixel fixed centered width for a website page works on 
everything. A phone turned landscape can read 12 point common 
fonts at full width zoom. I find that using a fixed width 
instead of an adaptive width is better for phones. Especially 
when viewing the same website on a large desktop monitor. With 
the context centered, the website is not too wide which can be 
hard to read on a large screen, but fits onto a phone screen nicely.


Another thing I found about phones with using fixed pages and 
fixed width text boxes versus dynamic width pages. Tapping the 
text zooms to the width of a text box. Tapping on a dynamic 
width box had mixed results as the phone operating system has to 
guess a zoom factor, which often resulted in over zooming 
requiring horizontal scrolling to read.


I split the screen into vertical fourths. Navigation, notes, and 
such in the left quadrant, text boxes and other content in the 
other three quadrants. Following more along the lines of the 
current style of the sqlite website, the right most quadrant 
column for stuff such as the common links box with the page 
content in the first 3 quadrant columns. I think a fixed width 
instead of dynamic width works better with phones and other 
small devices.


Newspapers use 4-6 columns on a page instead of stretching a 
line all the way across the page. It is easier for the eyes to 
track from line to line. I find wide width of the sqlite pages 
hard to read on my desktop monitors. Although I can shrink the 
width of the browser, I am usually working on other things when 
opening the page which need wider widths of the browser.


People who mostly use phones for browsing the web are not using 
devices with a paltry 320x480 screen. scaling for a 950 width 
would work better.


Fixed width content boxes seem to work better for phones as it 
gives better clues to the phone how to zoom. Tapping any text 
box will zoom to the width of that text box. Dynamic width boxes 
do not have those kind of clues. I laid out my entire website 
using the four quadrant vertical columns and fixed width text 
boxes, which seems to work well on various phones I tried, along 
with large desktop monitors. You can see how it works here>


https://nousrandom.net/index.html

-
Scott Doctor
sc...@scottdoctor.com
-

On 9/5/2016 13:55, Richard Hipp wrote:

Most of the world views the internet on their phone now, I am told,
and websites are suppose to be "responsive", meaning that they
reformat themselves to be attractive and useful for the majority who
view them through a 320x480 pixel soda-straw.  In an effort to conform
to this trend, I have made some changes to the *draft* SQLite website
(http://sqlite.org/draft) Your feedback on these changes is
appreciated.  Please be sure to try out the new design both on a
narrow-screen phone and on a traditional desktop browser.  The goal is
to provide a more mobile-friendly website without reducing the
information content available to desktop users.



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Re: [sqlite] "Responsive" website revamp at www.sqlite.org

[Darren Duncan]

On 2016-09-05 1:55 PM, Richard Hipp wrote:

Most of the world views the internet on their phone now, I am told,
and websites are suppose to be "responsive", meaning that they
reformat themselves to be attractive and useful for the majority who
view them through a 320x480 pixel soda-straw.  In an effort to conform
to this trend, I have made some changes to the *draft* SQLite website
(http://sqlite.org/draft) Your feedback on these changes is
appreciated.  Please be sure to try out the new design both on a
narrow-screen phone and on a traditional desktop browser.  The goal is
to provide a more mobile-friendly website without reducing the
information content available to desktop users.


Superficially the altered site looks like an improvement.  It uses the simple 
and standard "viewport" declaration to achieve the low-hanging fruit.  Text is 
readable on my phone as with my computer at its default size while loading. 
Site still seems navigatable.  I didn't go very far though. -- Darren Duncan


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