Zenith angles and hours to sunset

[Steve Lelievre]

I have been doing some calculations for an Hours To Sunset dial (that 
is, an Italian Hours dial with the numbering running backwards). I 
discovered that the maximum altitude for a given hour does not occur at 
the summer solstice.  I was a little surprised to discover this - not 
amazed, but surprised enough to make me wonder if I have done my 
calculations wrong.


The attached diagram is for the example case of 4 hours before sunset. 
I'm getting a double maximum occurring a little after the vernal equinox 
and a little before before the autumnal equinox. I get similarly shaped 
curves for others hours, with less separation between the peaks when I 
use higher (italian) hour numbers.


Assuming that I have in fact graphed the altitude correctly, it means is 
that there is a period over the summer months when the altitude for any 
given hour to sunset stays /approximately/ the same. In my case, at 49N, 
it seems that over the summer months, the solar altitude for 1 hour to 
sunset is approximately a little under 10 degrees, 2 hours to sunset is 
approximately a little under 20 degrees, and so on at a little under 10 
degrees per hour, at least for the last 5 to 6 hours of the day.


In this day and age, I think we would demand greater accuracy, but have 
there ever been sundials or other devices that exploited this approximation?


Steve

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Re: Sundial books for children

[Peter Mayer]

Hi Dan,

A good book is _Make a Sundial_ prepared by the Education Group of the 
British Sundial Society in 1991.  It appears to be available still, on 
line, from the BSS:


http://www.sundials.co.uk/bssbooks.htm

best wishes,

Peter Mayer


On 6/11/2017 2:16, Dan-George Uza wrote:

Hello,

I am looking for titles of sundial books for children. I particularly 
liked Annos sundial pop-up book by Mitsumasa Anno. Also, I would like 
to know some of your experiences in working with kids. What do you 
think is the best approach to teach 10 year olds about sundials?


Regards,

Dan Uza


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Re: Sundial books for children

[rodwall1...@gmail.com]

I think the best way to teach 10 year olds. Is not by a book but by active 
doing and seeing.
Part of active seeing could be to have a sundial and use a torch as being the 
sun. Describe the torch as being the sun, and watch the shadows show the time. 
Describe that in the morning the sun comes up in the east. Then show noon time. 
Then show the afternoon times until sunset. That makes the connection as to how 
the shadows shows the time.

Some 10 year olds are active learning and are sand pit learners. Not symbolic 
learners from a book or black board.

Regards,

Roderick Wall.

- Reply message -
From: "Willy Leenders" 
To: 
Subject: Sundial books for children
Date: Mon, Nov 6, 2017 5:26 AM

Always teach children from the beginning that they should stand on the 
centerline of 'the calendar' of an analemmatic sundial and not on the month 
like most of the images on this website!

Willy Leenders
Hasselt in Flanders (Belgium)

Visit my website about the sundials in the province of Limburg (Flanders) with 
a section 'worth knowing about sundials' (mostly in Dutch): 
http://www.wijzerweb.be


Op 5-nov-2017, om 18:01 heeft Paul Ratto het volgende geschreven:

> In message 
> 
>  Michael Ossipoff  wrote:
> 
>> Show them sundials that can be explained to them. I think that people will
>> like something better, enjoy it more, if they know how it works.
>> 
>> As much as I like the Analemmatic Dial, I prefer (at least at first)
>> showing people sundials that they'd be willing to listen to an explanation
>> of.   ...or dials whose explanation is brief.
>> 
>> So, that would rule-out the Analemmatic, and declining flat dials, and
>> altitude dials.
>> 
>> The Horizontal Dial, closely derived from the Equatorial Dial, has a brief
>> and intuitive explanation. Likewise the South Vertical  Dial, the Polar
>> Dial, and any north or south Reclining Dial. (They're like Horizontal Dials
>> for different latitudes). (They could be summarized as any dial whose
>> plate's normal is in the plane of the meridian).
>> 
>> Of course the Equatorial Dials are the most obvious and natural of all, not
>> really requiring explanation. (By "Equatorial", I mean any dial that
>> directly shows a shadow's or lightspot's movement around the equatorial
>> plane by uniformly-spaced marks around a circle in that plane)
>> 
>> My favorite for a south windowsill is the Circumference-Aperture
>> Cylinder-Equatorial, but I'd want to include, with it, at least a
>> *description* of the geometric demonstration of its principle. (My
>> girlfriend doesn't care for geometry or math, but she's going to hear about
>> the geometry of a Circumference-Aperture Cylindrical-Equatorial.)
>> 
>> Declining flat dials, altitude dials, the Analemmatic Dial, and the
>> Circumference-Aperture Cylinder-Equatorial are good ways of inspiring
>> interest in, and demonstrating, some geometry or astronomical mathematics.
>> Emphasize to  the person, that those subjects are relevant and interesting,
>> and useful.
>> 
>> It seems to me that those dials would be especially a good idea for school
>> math classes, or for when someone's child is taking such courses.
>> 
>> Michael Ossipoff
>> 
> 
> 
> Although I am not aware of Sundial books written SPECIFICALLY for
> children, several (mainly Analemmatics due to their 'interactive'
> nature) are certainly featured within some School-books - and you
> could view examples at website: www.sunclocks.com/data/school.htm
> 
> If you want to interest children in the subject of Sundials - then
> I suggest that you visit some Schools and give a 'presentation' to
> them - as in the attached photograph, showing Slaven Licina giving
> such a talk.  You can visit his own website at: www.suncanisat.com
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Paul Ratto.
> 
> 
>> 
>> 
>> On Sun, Nov 5, 2017 at 10:46 AM, Dan-George Uza 
>> wrote:
>> 
>>> Hello,
>>> 
>>> I am looking for titles of sundial books for children. I particularly
>>> liked Annos sundial pop-up book by Mitsumasa Anno. Also, I would like to
>>> know some of your experiences in working with kids. What do you think is
>>> the best approach to teach 10 year olds about sundials?
>>> 
>>> Regards,
>>> 
>>> Dan Uza
>>> 
>>> ---
>>> https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> 
> ---
> https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial
>---
https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial

AGAIN Re: Sundial books for children

[Willy Leenders]

Always teach children from the beginning that they should stand on the 
centerline of 'the calendar' of an analemmatic sundial and not on the month 
like most of the images on this website!

Willy Leenders
Hasselt in Flanders (Belgium)

Visit my website about the sundials in the province of Limburg (Flanders) with 
a section 'worth knowing about sundials' (mostly in Dutch): 
http://www.wijzerweb.be




Op 5-nov-2017, om 18:01 heeft Paul Ratto het volgende geschreven:

> In message 
> 
>  Michael Ossipoff  wrote:
> 
>> Show them sundials that can be explained to them. I think that people will
>> like something better, enjoy it more, if they know how it works.
>> 
>> As much as I like the Analemmatic Dial, I prefer (at least at first)
>> showing people sundials that they'd be willing to listen to an explanation
>> of.   ...or dials whose explanation is brief.
>> 
>> So, that would rule-out the Analemmatic, and declining flat dials, and
>> altitude dials.
>> 
>> The Horizontal Dial, closely derived from the Equatorial Dial, has a brief
>> and intuitive explanation. Likewise the South Vertical  Dial, the Polar
>> Dial, and any north or south Reclining Dial. (They're like Horizontal Dials
>> for different latitudes). (They could be summarized as any dial whose
>> plate's normal is in the plane of the meridian).
>> 
>> Of course the Equatorial Dials are the most obvious and natural of all, not
>> really requiring explanation. (By "Equatorial", I mean any dial that
>> directly shows a shadow's or lightspot's movement around the equatorial
>> plane by uniformly-spaced marks around a circle in that plane)
>> 
>> My favorite for a south windowsill is the Circumference-Aperture
>> Cylinder-Equatorial, but I'd want to include, with it, at least a
>> *description* of the geometric demonstration of its principle. (My
>> girlfriend doesn't care for geometry or math, but she's going to hear about
>> the geometry of a Circumference-Aperture Cylindrical-Equatorial.)
>> 
>> Declining flat dials, altitude dials, the Analemmatic Dial, and the
>> Circumference-Aperture Cylinder-Equatorial are good ways of inspiring
>> interest in, and demonstrating, some geometry or astronomical mathematics.
>> Emphasize to  the person, that those subjects are relevant and interesting,
>> and useful.
>> 
>> It seems to me that those dials would be especially a good idea for school
>> math classes, or for when someone's child is taking such courses.
>> 
>> Michael Ossipoff
>> 
> 
> 
> Although I am not aware of Sundial books written SPECIFICALLY for
> children, several (mainly Analemmatics due to their 'interactive'
> nature) are certainly featured within some School-books - and you
> could view examples at website: www.sunclocks.com/data/school.htm
> 
> If you want to interest children in the subject of Sundials - then
> I suggest that you visit some Schools and give a 'presentation' to
> them - as in the attached photograph, showing Slaven Licina giving
> such a talk.  You can visit his own website at: www.suncanisat.com
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Paul Ratto.
> 
> 
>> 
>> 
>> On Sun, Nov 5, 2017 at 10:46 AM, Dan-George Uza 
>> wrote:
>> 
>>> Hello,
>>> 
>>> I am looking for titles of sundial books for children. I particularly
>>> liked Annos sundial pop-up book by Mitsumasa Anno. Also, I would like to
>>> know some of your experiences in working with kids. What do you think is
>>> the best approach to teach 10 year olds about sundials?
>>> 
>>> Regards,
>>> 
>>> Dan Uza
>>> 
>>> ---
>>> https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> 
> ---
> https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial
> 

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Re: Sundial books for children

[Willy Leenders]

Always teach 
children from the beginning that they should stand on the centerline of 'the
 calendar' of an analemmatic sundial and not on the month like most of the images on this website!
Willy LeendersHasselt in Flanders (Belgium)Visit my website about the sundials in the province of Limburg (Flanders) with a section 'worth knowing about sundials' (mostly in Dutch): http://www.wijzerweb.be

analemmatique-sundials
Description: Binary data

Op 5-nov-2017, om 18:01 heeft Paul Ratto het volgende geschreven:In message   Michael Ossipoff  wrote:Show them sundials that can be explained to them. I think that people willlike something better, enjoy it more, if they know how it works.As much as I like the Analemmatic Dial, I prefer (at least at first)showing people sundials that they'd be willing to listen to an explanationof.   ...or dials whose explanation is brief.So, that would rule-out the Analemmatic, and declining flat dials, andaltitude dials.The Horizontal Dial, closely derived from the Equatorial Dial, has a briefand intuitive explanation. Likewise the South Vertical  Dial, the PolarDial, and any north or south Reclining Dial. (They're like Horizontal Dialsfor different latitudes). (They could be summarized as any dial whoseplate's normal is in the plane of the meridian).Of course the Equatorial Dials are the most obvious and natural of all, notreally requiring explanation. (By "Equatorial", I mean any dial thatdirectly shows a shadow's or lightspot's movement around the equatorialplane by uniformly-spaced marks around a circle in that plane)My favorite for a south windowsill is the Circumference-ApertureCylinder-Equatorial, but I'd want to include, with it, at least a*description* of the geometric demonstration of its principle. (Mygirlfriend doesn't care for geometry or math, but she's going to hear aboutthe geometry of a Circumference-Aperture Cylindrical-Equatorial.)Declining flat dials, altitude dials, the Analemmatic Dial, and theCircumference-Aperture Cylinder-Equatorial are good ways of inspiringinterest in, and demonstrating, some geometry or astronomical mathematics.Emphasize to  the person, that those subjects are relevant and interesting,and useful.It seems to me that those dials would be especially a good idea for schoolmath classes, or for when someone's child is taking such courses.Michael OssipoffAlthough I am not aware of Sundial books written SPECIFICALLY forchildren, several (mainly Analemmatics due to their 'interactive'nature) are certainly featured within some School-books - and youcould view examples at website: www.sunclocks.com/data/school.htmIf you want to interest children in the subject of Sundials - thenI suggest that you visit some Schools and give a 'presentation' tothem - as in the attached photograph, showing Slaven Licina givingsuch a talk.  You can visit his own website at: www.suncanisat.comRegards,Paul Ratto.On Sun, Nov 5, 2017 at 10:46 AM, Dan-George Uza wrote:Hello,I am looking for titles of sundial books for children. I particularlyliked Annos sundial pop-up book by Mitsumasa Anno. Also, I would like toknow some of your experiences in working with kids. What do you think isthe best approach to teach 10 year olds about sundials?Regards,Dan Uza---https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial-- ---https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial---
https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial

RE: sundial Digest, Vol 143, Issue 5

[Art Krenzel]

Nice tour!  I am most interested in getting photos of Luang Prabang, Laos.  
That was a provincial capital during the Vietnam War and I visited the area 
several times a week at 480 knots and 4000 ft AGL.  It was not heavily bombed 
however it was associated with the Pathet Lao who were the native rebels 
sponsored by N. Vietnam.  I am sure there is no evidence left of the war but 
the craters really start about 100 miles east of there.

I am looking forward to seeing your photos.  As you fly to Hanoi, look for 
circular ponds on the ground which are bomb craters.  See if there is any 
evidence of the war there.

It sounds like fun.

Art


From: sundial-requ...@uni-koeln.de
Sent: Sunday, November 5, 2017 9:12 AM
To: sundial@uni-koeln.de
Subject: sundial Digest, Vol 143, Issue 5

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Today's Topics:

   1. Re: Sundial books for children (Paul Ratto)


--

Message: 1
Date: Sun, 05 Nov 2017 12:01:27 EST
From: Paul Ratto 
To: sundial@uni-koeln.de
Subject: Re: Sundial books for children
Message-ID: <5bf04f9656.sunclock...@icloud.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

In message 

  Michael Ossipoff  wrote:

> Show them sundials that can be explained to them. I think that people will
> like something better, enjoy it more, if they know how it works.
>
> As much as I like the Analemmatic Dial, I prefer (at least at first)
> showing people sundials that they'd be willing to listen to an explanation
> of.   ...or dials whose explanation is brief.
>
> So, that would rule-out the Analemmatic, and declining flat dials, and
> altitude dials.
>
> The Horizontal Dial, closely derived from the Equatorial Dial, has a brief
> and intuitive explanation. Likewise the South Vertical  Dial, the Polar
> Dial, and any north or south Reclining Dial. (They're like Horizontal Dials
> for different latitudes). (They could be summarized as any dial whose
> plate's normal is in the plane of the meridian).
>
> Of course the Equatorial Dials are the most obvious and natural of all, not
> really requiring explanation. (By "Equatorial", I mean any dial that
> directly shows a shadow's or lightspot's movement around the equatorial
> plane by uniformly-spaced marks around a circle in that plane)
>
> My favorite for a south windowsill is the Circumference-Aperture
> Cylinder-Equatorial, but I'd want to include, with it, at least a
> *description* of the geometric demonstration of its principle. (My
> girlfriend doesn't care for geometry or math, but she's going to hear about
> the geometry of a Circumference-Aperture Cylindrical-Equatorial.)
>
> Declining flat dials, altitude dials, the Analemmatic Dial, and the
> Circumference-Aperture Cylinder-Equatorial are good ways of inspiring
> interest in, and demonstrating, some geometry or astronomical mathematics.
> Emphasize to  the person, that those subjects are relevant and interesting,
> and useful.
>
> It seems to me that those dials would be especially a good idea for school
> math classes, or for when someone's child is taking such courses.
>
> Michael Ossipoff
>


Although I am not aware of Sundial books written SPECIFICALLY for
children, several (mainly Analemmatics due to their 'interactive'
nature) are certainly featured within some School-books - and you
could view examples at website: 
https://nam03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=www.sunclocks.com%2Fdata%2Fschool.htm=02%7C01%7Cphoenix98604%40msn.com%7C73d11b150af54a75df5d08d524706ead%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435%7C1%7C0%7C636454987682268345=LNbneDQEArrRHOrWw1mlT9G3lrJEjUuIl7jMr%2BC0UbA%3D=0

If you want to interest children in the subject of Sundials - then
I suggest that you visit some Schools and give a 'presentation' to
them - as in the attached photograph, showing Slaven Licina giving
such a talk.  You can visit his own website at: 

Re: Sundial books for children

[R.Pauli]

Children's tale of  Mr. Stemwinder Finds the Time
Childrens' book written by Stephen Y. Bready, illustrated by Antoinette 
Delaney.- around 1979


   Mr Stemwinder collected clocks... loved to hear them chime on the
   hour and noon and midnight
   But one autumn day he got lost walking in the woods
   He could not return home in time to wind all his time pieces.
   So they all stopped, He could no longer set his clocks, because he
   didn't know the time.
   Distressed that his house was silent of tick-tocks and chimes,
   He went out into his garden to be sad.
   Among the piles of leaves, he sat on what he thought was a bench.
   He sat on a sundial!
   He brushed aside the leaves and let the sun tell him the time.
   That's how Mr Stemwinder found the time.


Story archived at Microsoft at 
ftp://ftp.umh.es/utiles/RESOURCE-KIT/RESKIT-W98/APPS/NETSHOW/gallery/stemwndr/default.htm

ftp://ftp.umh.es/utiles/RESOURCE-KIT/RESKIT-W98/APPS/NETSHOW/gallery/name.htm
Used to showcase early rich media technology using voice synced with images

Lots more text and drawings aimed at youngsters
Out of print -  will see if I can find it.



On 11/5/2017 7:46 AM, Dan-George Uza wrote:

Hello,

I am looking for titles of sundial books for children. I particularly 
liked Annos sundial pop-up book by Mitsumasa Anno. Also, I would like 
to know some of your experiences in working with kids. What do you 
think is the best approach to teach 10 year olds about sundials?


Regards,

Dan Uza


---
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---
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Re: Sundial books for children

[Paul Ratto]

In message 

  Michael Ossipoff  wrote:

> Show them sundials that can be explained to them. I think that people will
> like something better, enjoy it more, if they know how it works.
> 
> As much as I like the Analemmatic Dial, I prefer (at least at first)
> showing people sundials that they'd be willing to listen to an explanation
> of.   ...or dials whose explanation is brief.
> 
> So, that would rule-out the Analemmatic, and declining flat dials, and
> altitude dials.
> 
> The Horizontal Dial, closely derived from the Equatorial Dial, has a brief
> and intuitive explanation. Likewise the South Vertical  Dial, the Polar
> Dial, and any north or south Reclining Dial. (They're like Horizontal Dials
> for different latitudes). (They could be summarized as any dial whose
> plate's normal is in the plane of the meridian).
> 
> Of course the Equatorial Dials are the most obvious and natural of all, not
> really requiring explanation. (By "Equatorial", I mean any dial that
> directly shows a shadow's or lightspot's movement around the equatorial
> plane by uniformly-spaced marks around a circle in that plane)
> 
> My favorite for a south windowsill is the Circumference-Aperture
> Cylinder-Equatorial, but I'd want to include, with it, at least a
> *description* of the geometric demonstration of its principle. (My
> girlfriend doesn't care for geometry or math, but she's going to hear about
> the geometry of a Circumference-Aperture Cylindrical-Equatorial.)
> 
> Declining flat dials, altitude dials, the Analemmatic Dial, and the
> Circumference-Aperture Cylinder-Equatorial are good ways of inspiring
> interest in, and demonstrating, some geometry or astronomical mathematics.
> Emphasize to  the person, that those subjects are relevant and interesting,
> and useful.
> 
> It seems to me that those dials would be especially a good idea for school
> math classes, or for when someone's child is taking such courses.
> 
> Michael Ossipoff
> 


Although I am not aware of Sundial books written SPECIFICALLY for
children, several (mainly Analemmatics due to their 'interactive'
nature) are certainly featured within some School-books - and you
could view examples at website: www.sunclocks.com/data/school.htm

If you want to interest children in the subject of Sundials - then
I suggest that you visit some Schools and give a 'presentation' to
them - as in the attached photograph, showing Slaven Licina giving
such a talk.  You can visit his own website at: www.suncanisat.com

Regards,

Paul Ratto.
 

> 
> 
> On Sun, Nov 5, 2017 at 10:46 AM, Dan-George Uza 
> wrote:
> 
> > Hello,
> >
> > I am looking for titles of sundial books for children. I particularly
> > liked Annos sundial pop-up book by Mitsumasa Anno. Also, I would like to
> > know some of your experiences in working with kids. What do you think is
> > the best approach to teach 10 year olds about sundials?
> >
> > Regards,
> >
> > Dan Uza
> >
> > ---
> > https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial
> >
> >
> >


-- 

---
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Re: Sundial books for children

[Michael Ossipoff]

Show them sundials that can be explained to them. I think that people will
like something better, enjoy it more, if they know how it works.

As much as I like the Analemmatic Dial, I prefer (at least at first)
showing people sundials that they'd be willing to listen to an explanation
of.   ...or dials whose explanation is brief.

So, that would rule-out the Analemmatic, and declining flat dials, and
altitude dials.

The Horizontal Dial, closely derived from the Equatorial Dial, has a brief
and intuitive explanation. Likewise the South Vertical  Dial, the Polar
Dial, and any north or south Reclining Dial. (They're like Horizontal Dials
for different latitudes). (They could be summarized as any dial whose
plate's normal is in the plane of the meridian).

Of course the Equatorial Dials are the most obvious and natural of all, not
really requiring explanation. (By "Equatorial", I mean any dial that
directly shows a shadow's or lightspot's movement around the equatorial
plane by uniformly-spaced marks around a circle in that plane)

My favorite for a south windowsill is the Circumference-Aperture
Cylinder-Equatorial, but I'd want to include, with it, at least a
*description* of the geometric demonstration of its principle. (My
girlfriend doesn't care for geometry or math, but she's going to hear about
the geometry of a Circumference-Aperture Cylindrical-Equatorial.)

Declining flat dials, altitude dials, the Analemmatic Dial, and the
Circumference-Aperture Cylinder-Equatorial are good ways of inspiring
interest in, and demonstrating, some geometry or astronomical mathematics.
Emphasize to  the person, that those subjects are relevant and interesting,
and useful.

It seems to me that those dials would be especially a good idea for school
math classes, or for when someone's child is taking such courses.

Michael Ossipoff






On Sun, Nov 5, 2017 at 10:46 AM, Dan-George Uza 
wrote:

> Hello,
>
> I am looking for titles of sundial books for children. I particularly
> liked Annos sundial pop-up book by Mitsumasa Anno. Also, I would like to
> know some of your experiences in working with kids. What do you think is
> the best approach to teach 10 year olds about sundials?
>
> Regards,
>
> Dan Uza
>
> ---
> https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial
>
>
>
---
https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial

Sundial books for children

[Dan-George Uza]

Hello,

I am looking for titles of sundial books for children. I particularly liked
Annos sundial pop-up book by Mitsumasa Anno. Also, I would like to know
some of your experiences in working with kids. What do you think is the
best approach to teach 10 year olds about sundials?

Regards,

Dan Uza
---
https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial