Re: Sundial Slang
Hi Mario,
Thanks for your most informative input.
As I understand from your medieval French, the "high"
prefix as in "high noon", "high tierce" etc, means a time justbefore the
period of noon, tierce etc (?). Then "bas tierce" etc would be the time
just after. Do you have a conversion of the French terms into
(approximate) modern times? These "extra" cannonical hours are then
similar to the half-tides in the English Anglo-Saxon timekeeping.
These extra terms do shed some light as to why "Nones" -
the Latin ninth hour after sunrise - got to mean the modern midday or 12th
hour. It seems likely that high noon just got shortened when there was no
need for the distinction between high noon and noon.
Regards,
John
Dr J R DavisFlowton, UK52.08N, 1.043Eemail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
- Original Message -
From:
Mario Arnaldi
To: Sundial
List
Sent: 18 August 2001 11:08
Subject: Re: Sundial Slang
- Original Message -
From:
Mario
Arnaldi
To: John
Davis
Sent: Saturday, August 18, 2001 12:11
AM
Subject: Re: Sundial Slang
One term which is common and not (yet) in the Glossary
is "High noon". Is this an americanism? I have, of course, seen
my cowboy movies, but am unclear where the term originates. Is it
that, with the relatively low latitudes in the south of America, the Sun can
come close to directly overhead (altitude = 90 degrees) at noon? If
so, it reinforces the wrong view of much of the UK media that the Sun is at
the "zenith" at noon. Whilst many ordinary people think of "zenith" as
the highest point of the arc, astronomically it is defined as the point
which really is directly overhead (only expressed rather more
formally!).
---
Hi all,
this my response may be a little more serious
(hope don't bore you), though I really don't know where the slang said
'Hight Noon' comes from.
Nevertheless I should remark that in middle
age England and French people use to call midday just like this, "hygh
noone", or "haute nonne". As we know the English language got much from
the French language in the middle age, and we know also that modern word
"noon" comes from "none" (or Latin 'nona') that is the cononical hour when
monks recite none, that in the ancient Irish language surelybecome
"Noon". There is, actually in the Vatican library an ancient
Irishmanuscript that use this term to say "none" (see my book "The
ancient sundial of Ireland", page 66), and because since early times the
pryer of none has been slowly superimposed to midday, we find that in
England people easily called that moment 'noon'.
But lets go bak to high noon again. As I
wrote here, medieval French use to call midday "haute nonne" that means
high none (in the sense of the time for pryer), why this? Easy, in
medieval time people didn't use the hours as moments like today, but they
consider a time between two terms (or hour lines), and canonical hours in
former times last almost three seasonal (or temporal) hours, and the
position of the sun gave them the idea to specify better. So this is the
names of the part of the day in medieval France: heure de soleil levant
(hour of the rising sun), prime, houte prime (high prime), tierce, haute
tierce (high terce), haute nonne (high none), basse nonne (low none),
remontière (wake up), haut vespre (high vesper), bas vespre (low vesper),
complie (compline), heure de soleil esconsant (hour of the hiding
sun).
At the same time in England we find the
popular use to call midday "hygh noone" as we may read in many old
writings. Look at this Cronicle, for instance:"With us the nobility,
gentry and students doe ordinarily go to dinner at aleaven before noone
and to supper at five, or betweene five and sixe afternoone. The
marchaunts dine and suppe seldome before 12 at noone and sixe at night
(read evening), aspecially in London. The husbandmen dine also at 'high
noone' as they call it and sup at seven or eyght; but out of the terme in
our Universities the schoolers dine at tenne".
Thank you for your attention, and forgive me
my bad English
Mario
Mario
ArnaldiV.le Leonardo, 82I-48020 LIDO ADRIANO -
RavennaItaly
E-Mai:l [EMAIL PROTECTED]Web Site: http://digilander.iol.it/McArdalShop:
http://web.tiscalinet.it/McArdal---
Re: Sundial Slang
- Original Message - From: Mario Arnaldi To: John Davis Sent: Saturday, August 18, 2001 12:11 AM Subject: Re: Sundial Slang One term which is common and not (yet) in the Glossary is "High noon". Is this an americanism? I have, of course, seen my cowboy movies, but am unclear where the term originates. Is it that, with the relatively low latitudes in the south of America, the Sun can come close to directly overhead (altitude = 90 degrees) at noon? If so, it reinforces the wrong view of much of the UK media that the Sun is at the "zenith" at noon. Whilst many ordinary people think of "zenith" as the highest point of the arc, astronomically it is defined as the point which really is directly overhead (only expressed rather more formally!). --- Hi all, this my response may be a little more serious (hope don't bore you), though I really don't know where the slang said 'Hight Noon' comes from. Nevertheless I should remark that in middle age England and French people use to call midday just like this, "hygh noone", or "haute nonne". As we know the English language got much from the French language in the middle age, and we know also that modern word "noon" comes from "none" (or Latin 'nona') that is the cononical hour when monks recite none, that in the ancient Irish language surelybecome "Noon". There is, actually in the Vatican library an ancient Irishmanuscript that use this term to say "none" (see my book "The ancient sundial of Ireland", page 66), and because since early times the pryer of none has been slowly superimposed to midday, we find that in England people easily called that moment 'noon'. But lets go bak to high noon again. As I wrote here, medieval French use to call midday "haute nonne" that means high none (in the sense of the time for pryer), why this? Easy, in medieval time people didn't use the hours as moments like today, but they consider a time between two terms (or hour lines), and canonical hours in former times last almost three seasonal (or temporal) hours, and the position of the sun gave them the idea to specify better. So this is the names of the part of the day in medieval France: heure de soleil levant (hour of the rising sun), prime, houte prime (high prime), tierce, haute tierce (high terce), haute nonne (high none), basse nonne (low none), remontière (wake up), haut vespre (high vesper), bas vespre (low vesper), complie (compline), heure de soleil esconsant (hour of the hiding sun). At the same time in England we find the popular use to call midday "hygh noone" as we may read in many old writings. Look at this Cronicle, for instance:"With us the nobility, gentry and students doe ordinarily go to dinner at aleaven before noone and to supper at five, or betweene five and sixe afternoone. The marchaunts dine and suppe seldome before 12 at noone and sixe at night (read evening), aspecially in London. The husbandmen dine also at 'high noone' as they call it and sup at seven or eyght; but out of the terme in our Universities the schoolers dine at tenne". Thank you for your attention, and forgive me my bad English Mario Mario ArnaldiV.le Leonardo, 82I-48020 LIDO ADRIANO - RavennaItaly E-Mai:l [EMAIL PROTECTED]Web Site: http://digilander.iol.it/McArdalShop: http://web.tiscalinet.it/McArdal---
Re: Sundial Slang
Hi John et al, I couldn't let this pass without comment :-) !! I'm not sure that I am in any position to "approve" the correct terms - the BSS Sundial Glossary is just a collection of the bits of information that I've pulled together from various sources, including much input from the participants of this list. I have no problem with the use of slang terms, especially when they help those poor unfortunates that aren't sundial enthusiasts know what we're talking about. It does need care, though, not to introduce or reinforce misapprehensions. Most of John's terms seem to avoid this, though whether they are more easily understood than the "scientific" term is debatable. One term which is common and not (yet) in the Glossary is "High noon". Is this an americanism? I have, of course, seen my cowboy movies, but am unclear where the term originates. Is it that, with the relatively low latitudes in the south of America, the Sun can come close to directly overhead (altitude = 90 degrees) at noon? If so, it reinforces the wrong view of much of the UK media that the Sun is at the "zenith" at noon. Whilst many ordinary people think of "zenith" as the highest point of the arc, astronomically it is defined as the point which really is directly overhead (only expressed rather more formally!). Another point to watch is the use of "due north" instead of celestial pole. If you are at northerly latitudes, the difference betweencelestial and geographic north can be significant. Why not use the Pole Star as a better everyday approximation? "Horizon pollution" is an interesting term. I guess we would define this as a percentage of the daylight period when the Sun falls on a particular site. It's difficult to come up with a mathematical definition, as it depends on the Sun's declination as well as the positions of any obstructions. Do we know of any dials at locations which can show the time over the full sunrise-sunset period thoughout the year? Regards, John -- Dr J R DavisFlowton, UK52.08N, 1.043Eemail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - Original Message - From: John Carmichael To: sundial@rrz.uni-koeln.de Sent: 17 August 2001 16:07 Subject: Sundial Slang Hi All, I've just finished the 7th edition of my Sundial Owner's Manual and realized that throughout the manual I explained sundial terms using sundial slang instead of the John Davis approved correct term. (Although at least in the Manual I place the correct term next to it in parenthisis) I also use sundial slang when Im talking with others. I feel a little guilty because Im not using the correct terms. But the slang serves a very useful purpose in that it is so intuitive and self-explanatory. (The sundial purists are going to hate me for this!) Anyway, here are a few of them *High noon (Apparent Noon) Fuzz zone (The penumbra) Fuzz factor (formula that determines the width of the penumbra: F=1/100) The Correction graph (The Equation of Time) Sun height (solar altitude) Sun direction (solar azimuth) Due North (The Celestial Pole) Sun time (Apparent Time) Watch time (Standard Time) Date Ball (Spherical Nodus) Shadow caster (gnomon) The edge of the shadow caster (style) Moontime (time shown by moon shadows on a sundial) Time Zone correction (Longitudinal Shift) Horizon pollution (the objects around sundial that shade it from the sun. ie. trees, buildings, mountains. No correct term for this that I know of) *As a sundial slang purist, I get upset, like any good dialist would, when my favorite radio station announces that it is High Noon (12:00 pm watch time), but because of our Time Zone Correction, its really only about 11:30 am Sun time! John John L. Carmichael Jr.Sundial Sculptures925 E. Foothills Dr.Tucson Arizona 85718USA Tel: 520-696-1709Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]Website: http://www.sundialsculptures.com
Re: Sundial Slang
I knew you'd write back John! Loved your comments. "High Noon" is a very common and still used_expression_ here in the American Southwest. (In lots of old cowboy movies that's when they have the shootouts. They probably only had sundial and noonmarks back then).It's a favorite of mine, so much so that Iengraved my Flaundrau Planetariumheliochronometer with a High Noon Mark.(again, more guilt feelings!)I'm sure it indicated the time when the sun crosses the N/S meridian and is at its daily highest point, not when it reaches zenith. And it certainlyis not when a clock says 12:00 pm. So you could use this term anywhere in earth, not just tropic latitudes where the sun reaches zenith. Also, I forgot to mention "Beaded Figure-eights" (Analemmas who's dates/declinations are marked). And by popular demand, everyone, especially Steve Lelievre, Fred and Fer will pleased thatI don't say "Singleton Dial" anymore! John John L. Carmichael Jr.Sundial Sculptures925 E. Foothills Dr.Tucson Arizona 85718USA Tel: 520-696-1709Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]Website: http://www.sundialsculptures.com - Original Message - From: John Davis To: John Carmichael ; sundial@rrz.uni-koeln.de Sent: Friday, August 17, 2001 11:36 AM Subject: Re: Sundial Slang Hi John et al, I couldn't let this pass without comment :-) !! I'm not sure that I am in any position to "approve" the correct terms - the BSS Sundial Glossary is just a collection of the bits of information that I've pulled together from various sources, including much input from the participants of this list. I have no problem with the use of slang terms, especially when they help those poor unfortunates that aren't sundial enthusiasts know what we're talking about. It does need care, though, not to introduce or reinforce misapprehensions. Most of John's terms seem to avoid this, though whether they are more easily understood than the "scientific" term is debatable. One term which is common and not (yet) in the Glossary is "High noon". Is this an americanism? I have, of course, seen my cowboy movies, but am unclear where the term originates. Is it that, with the relatively low latitudes in the south of America, the Sun can come close to directly overhead (altitude = 90 degrees) at noon? If so, it reinforces the wrong view of much of the UK media that the Sun is at the "zenith" at noon. Whilst many ordinary people think of "zenith" as the highest point of the arc, astronomically it is defined as the point which really is directly overhead (only expressed rather more formally!). Another point to watch is the use of "due north" instead of celestial pole. If you are at northerly latitudes, the difference betweencelestial and geographic north can be significant. Why not use the Pole Star as a better everyday approximation? "Horizon pollution" is an interesting term. I guess we would define this as a percentage of the daylight period when the Sun falls on a particular site. It's difficult to come up with a mathematical definition, as it depends on the Sun's declination as well as the positions of any obstructions. Do we know of any dials at locations which can show the time over the full sunrise-sunset period thoughout the year? Regards, John -- Dr J R DavisFlowton, UK52.08N, 1.043Eemail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - Original Message - From: John Carmichael To: sundial@rrz.uni-koeln.de Sent: 17 August 2001 16:07 Subject: Sundial Slang Hi All, I've just finished the 7th edition of my Sundial Owner's Manual and realized that throughout the manual I explained sundial terms using sundial slang instead of the John Davis approved correct term. (Although at least in the Manual I place the correct term next to it in parenthisis) I also use sundial slang when Im talking with others. I feel a little guilty because Im not using the correct terms. But the slang serves a very useful purpose in that it is so intuitive and self-explanatory. (The sundial purists are going to hate me for this!) Anyway, here are a few of them *High noon (Apparent Noon) Fuzz zone (The penumbra) Fuzz factor (formula that determines the width of the penumbra: F=1/100) The Correction graph (The Equation of Time) Sun height (solar altitude) Sun direction (solar azimuth) Due North (The Celestial Pole) Sun time (Apparent Time) Watch time (Standard Time) Date Ball (Spherical Nodus) Shadow caster (gnomon) The edge of the shadow caster (style) Moontime (time shown by moon shadows on a sundial
