Re: So long, and thanks for all the fish
Paul B. Gallagher wrote: JeffM wrote: Hmmm. I've already used this analogy once today (elsewhere). Sometimes it only takes ONE individual to affect a change: http://google.com/search?tbs=dfn:1q=hung-jury OK, so if I dedicate my life to making sure everyone knows that it's Effect change, not Affect change, I can make a difference? Or is it just that the world could(n't) care less? ;-) I thought you could *effect* change to *affect* the result!! -- Daniel with just 143 messages to read in moz.general ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: So long, and thanks for all the fish
Jay Garcia wrote: On 16.07.2011 22:15, JeffM wrote: --- Original Message --- Graham wrote: I'm liking Seamonkey less and less [Large amounts of text elided] Whenever I see these long diatribes about SeaMonkey, I note that they never mention the authors' participation in the Release Candidate trial/review process. What else is required other than to be a user, I thought his post was quite eloquent and nowhere near being trollish. Hear! Hear! keith whaley ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: So long, and thanks for all the fish
JeffM wrote: JeffM wrote: Hmmm. I've already used this analogy once today (elsewhere). Sometimes it only takes ONE individual to affect a change: http://google.com/search?tbs=dfn:1q=hung-jury Paul B. Gallagher wrote: OK, so if I dedicate my life to making sure everyone knows that it's Effect change, not Affect change, I can make a difference? Or is it just that the world could(n't) care less? ;-) You're expecting me to spell it correctly TWICE in one day? http://groups.google.com/group/comp.os.linux.advocacy/msg/2ee6f9793472c153?q=effect Dreamer. 8-) I may be mistaken but Effect change means cause change whereas Affect change means put on the appearance of change, where there really is none. The hidden humour in using this as a comment on the points being made by the critics and the defenders of the system in this thread, should be noted. -- Rostyk ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: So long, and thanks for all the fish
On 11-07-19 9:57 PM, Paul B. Gallagher wrote: Agreed, it's valuable. But it's incomplete, just as your testing was incomplete until someone using a different-language version tried it. Good example. Code used in Firefox and Thunderbird have quite a bit of automated testing. See http://quality.mozilla.org/teams/automation/. This tangent originated from the complaint that you're not aware changes before a release is final and someone mentioned that users are invited to participate in pre-release testing. That does not equal relying solely on human volunteers not familiar with testing. It just means that if you want to what changes are made, one way of finding out is to try a pre-release. And of course, that's not to say installing a pre-release is the only way to find out what changes are coming. -- Chris Ilias http://ilias.ca Newsgroup moderator ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: So long, and thanks for all the fish
Rostyslaw Lewyckyj wrote: JeffM wrote: JeffM wrote: Hmmm. I've already used this analogy once today (elsewhere). Sometimes it only takes ONE individual to affect a change: http://google.com/search?tbs=dfn:1q=hung-jury Paul B. Gallagher wrote: OK, so if I dedicate my life to making sure everyone knows that it's Effect change, not Affect change, I can make a difference? Or is it just that the world could(n't) care less? ;-) You're expecting me to spell it correctly TWICE in one day? http://groups.google.com/group/comp.os.linux.advocacy/msg/2ee6f9793472c153?q=effect Dreamer. 8-) I may be mistaken but Effect change means cause change whereas Affect change means put on the appearance of change, where there really is none. Yes. Affect change can also mean influence/modify change. The hidden humour in using this as a comment on the points being made by the critics and the defenders of the system in this thread, should be noted. Duly noted. -- War doesn't determine who's right, just who's left. -- Paul B. Gallagher ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: So long, and thanks for all the fish
Chris Ilias wrote: On 11-07-19 9:57 PM, Paul B. Gallagher wrote: Agreed, it's valuable. But it's incomplete, just as your testing was incomplete until someone using a different-language version tried it. Good example. Code used in Firefox and Thunderbird have quite a bit of automated testing. See http://quality.mozilla.org/teams/automation/. Thanks for the reassurance; this was not surprising but it's good to have confirmation. This tangent originated from the complaint that you're not aware changes before a release is final and someone mentioned that users are invited to participate in pre-release testing. That does not equal relying solely on human volunteers not familiar with testing. It just means that if you want to what changes are made, one way of finding out is to try a pre-release. That's a fair point, but pre-releases can sometimes entail unknown risks. I happen to be relatively risk-averse in this area, so I probably won't go this route. I know others enjoy it, and I encourage them to continue their valuable contributions. And of course, that's not to say installing a pre-release is the only way to find out what changes are coming. I was informed elsewhere in this thread of places where I can learn of changes before they are carved in stone. -- War doesn't determine who's right, just who's left. -- Paul B. Gallagher ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: So long, and thanks for all the fish
Paul B. Gallagher wrote: Rufus wrote: Paul B. Gallagher wrote: JeffM wrote: Paul B. Gallagher wrote: Inviting end users who are incapable of coding or testing is an empty promise. Describe more fully incapable of testing. What I mean is that most end users can demo a program, play around for a bit, and generally satisfy themselves that it works for their favorite tasks. They might accidentally stumble upon a problem. But they won't perform rigorous, systematic testing such as navigating to each and every option on a menu. So if you have a feature that's rarely used, or if it doesn't elicit interest or curiosity because of its menu location, name, or description, it won't be tested. In this scenario, you need a very large cohort of testers with very diverse interests (ways of using the program). I test avionics software professionally, even though I don't code any of it - it helps that I'm a pilot, and share a pilots user experience. That's about all that's required, and what you describe is likely sufficient because it highlights specifically what is important to the user; anything that the user doesn't *use* isn't even a consideration as far as an end-user is concerned. ... Well, as I'm sure you know, there's don't use and there's don't use much and there's don't use unless my life is on the line. So it's important that things like parachutes work even if you hardly ever think about them, much less touch them. If you lose an engine or your rudder fails or your fuselage pops its top and starts spraying passengers and flight attendants into the ocean, you have to be able to fly the plane safely anyway (and walk away from the landing, too). So all those things have to be tested. Yes. But we do retain and maintain functions where the hardware has gone out of inventory...which is a waste, IMO...but we do it because our product has to delivered to meet specification, and removing code often costs just about as much as putting new code in. And it's not all the same code in all of the boxes - some is high code, some is assembly...and it all has to play together. Of course, I understand no lives are at stake here. But there are parallels. Yes. It's the process parallels that I try to point out. And end quality. And I bet your process is probably much more rigorous and thorough than the average software beta tester's. Actually, it's very similar...but far more organized and priority driven. And it's driven by interface functionality, operational requirement, and not much else. We have hardware set aside in labs, and we use actual airplanes. One point where my process is near exact is in the new accelerated release numbering scheme that the SM team as adopted - that's almost straight out of our process book and doesn't bother me one bit. Even the numbering scheme is familiar to me. -- - Rufus ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: So long, and thanks for all the fish
Paul B. Gallagher wrote: Inviting end users who are incapable of coding or testing is an empty promise. Describe more fully incapable of testing. If the developers want to know what end users think, they need to ask them before the code is carved in stone. This overlooks the scratching an itch nature of Open Source coding/coders. So, obviously, non-coder FOSS users are subject to the whims of those who freely contribute their time/skills. Life is a bitch, then you die. ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: So long, and thanks for all the fish
JeffM wrote: Paul B. Gallagher wrote: Inviting end users who are incapable of coding or testing is an empty promise. Describe more fully incapable of testing. What I mean is that most end users can demo a program, play around for a bit, and generally satisfy themselves that it works for their favorite tasks. They might accidentally stumble upon a problem. But they won't perform rigorous, systematic testing such as navigating to each and every option on a menu. So if you have a feature that's rarely used, or if it doesn't elicit interest or curiosity because of its menu location, name, or description, it won't be tested. In this scenario, you need a very large cohort of testers with very diverse interests (ways of using the program). -- War doesn't determine who's right, just who's left. -- Paul B. Gallagher ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: So long, and thanks for all the fish
Paul B. Gallagher wrote: WLS wrote: Some good sources of information on what is going on with releases. Planet Mozilla http://planet.mozilla.org/ Mozilla Wiki https://wiki.mozilla.org/Main_Page MozillaZine Forums in the Build sections. http://forums.mozillazine.org/index.php Thanks. More than I can read at one sitting, but looks promising. That's why I read Planet Mozilla and peruse new posts in the forums everyday. Only takes a few minutes. -- SeaMonkey 2.4a2 ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: So long, and thanks for all the fish
JeffM wrote: Describe more fully incapable of testing. Paul B. Gallagher wrote: What I mean is that most end users can demo a program, play around for a bit, and generally satisfy themselves that it works for their favorite tasks. That actually constitutes a lot of data points. They might accidentally stumble upon a problem. But they won't perform rigorous, systematic testing such as navigating to each and every option on a menu. From each, according to his abilities; to each, according to his needs. So if you have a feature that's rarely used, or if it doesn't elicit interest or curiosity because of its menu location, name, or description, it won't be tested. Hmmm. I've already used this analogy once today (elsewhere). Sometimes it only takes ONE individual to affect a change: http://google.com/search?tbs=dfn:1q=hung-jury In this scenario, you need a very large cohort of testers with very diverse interests (ways of using the program). Yup. That's the ideal. Many eyes make all bugs shallow. http://www.venndiagram.org/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/gallery/venndiagram.org/venn-diagram-1.png The question that remains is How is that best achieved?. Again, I'm not that smart, so I don't have the answer. Maybe this aggregated-input thing can arrive at a solution. ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: So long, and thanks for all the fish
Paul B. Gallagher wrote: JeffM wrote: Paul B. Gallagher wrote: Inviting end users who are incapable of coding or testing is an empty promise. Describe more fully incapable of testing. What I mean is that most end users can demo a program, play around for a bit, and generally satisfy themselves that it works for their favorite tasks. They might accidentally stumble upon a problem. But they won't perform rigorous, systematic testing such as navigating to each and every option on a menu. So if you have a feature that's rarely used, or if it doesn't elicit interest or curiosity because of its menu location, name, or description, it won't be tested. In this scenario, you need a very large cohort of testers with very diverse interests (ways of using the program). I test avionics software professionally, even though I don't code any of it - it helps that I'm a pilot, and share a pilots user experience. That's about all that's required, and what you describe is likely sufficient because it highlights specifically what is important to the user; anything that the user doesn't *use* isn't even a consideration as far as an end-user is concerned. One doesn't really need to know how to code, but one does need to be able to draft an informative report, and I think most users can do that. Getting someone to actually listen, prioritize, and take action however... I've written SM bug reports, expressed user-oriented opinions here...to no result. Even when quite a few of the SM coders were behind what I had to say re: small buttons in the download dialog and human factors concerns (and I submitted a formal bug when asked to do so), it seemed like just *one* team member could somehow crush the input of all of the rest of us even though he was outnumbered. And nothing changed. Then I got severely burned trying to evaluate a relatively small (but desired) change in a SM beta on a machine I depend on and had to rebuild my former install from backup...thus formally ended my inclination to contribute. -- - Rufus ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: So long, and thanks for all the fish
What fish? I've been using SeaMonkey from the beginning, no fish for me. ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: So long, and thanks for all the fish
Paul B. Gallagher wrote: The point of this discussion is that the vast majority of SeaMonkey users (other than that very small élite who do contribute) find out about feature changes far too late in the process to provide any useful input. If the developers want to know what end users think, they need to ask them before the code is carved in stone. Do you use XXX always/sometimes/never? Would you like to be able to export YYY to ZZZ format? If we did away with the Forms Manager, would you care? And so forth. As things stand now, the developers have to guess what end users do and think based on their own personal experience with the product and feedback from that very small élite. Mostly they make good choices, but it's a chancy proposition. There is relatively new code in Core Gecko that makes these forms of questions actually askable, without needing to hunt down and stick a survey infront of our users. It has many implications that we are not clear on yet, but be away we hope/will visit this thought when we can. (Issues remain like User Privacy [Firefox recently changed/adjusted their privacy policy, how it would change for our users needs to be understood before we implement]; Actual Where does the data go/who owns it, as well as exactly _what_ do we want data on, and how we view it/draw conclusions from it) I surely will pen more details when an implementation is close to even being started :-) -- ~Justin Wood (Callek) ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: So long, and thanks for all the fish
Paul B. Gallagher wrote: JeffM wrote: Paul B. Gallagher wrote: Inviting end users who are incapable of coding or testing is an empty promise. Describe more fully incapable of testing. What I mean is that most end users can demo a program, play around for a bit, and generally satisfy themselves that it works for their favorite tasks. They might accidentally stumble upon a problem. But they won't perform rigorous, systematic testing such as navigating to each and every option on a menu. So if you have a feature that's rarely used, or if it doesn't elicit interest or curiosity because of its menu location, name, or description, it won't be tested. In this scenario, you need a very large cohort of testers with very diverse interests (ways of using the program). Allow me to say, that using SeaMonkey the way you intend to use the final product is especially useful, even in our beta's. If you report a problem you do see, in the way you do use the product, it usually helps. Just because you don't touch menu item alpha-omega, or use chatzilla, or whatever, doesn't mean your feedback is not valuable. I've been surprised at seemingly obvious issues like There is no chatzilla in my build that was brought to my attention on IRC once. With a bit of back and forth from a willing tester (who, is willing to help but has no real dev knowledge, and doesn't have time to go above and beyond his nornmal use..) I was able to figure out a problem with our 2.1 series and l10n release builds It turned out to be a very big problem at the time, but one I would have missed since I only use english. Other issues that are relatively obscure could also be caught by automated testing (admittedly our actual attention on that on our code is lax, since we have many known-failures atm... most of the failures are not actual issues -- due to Gecko/Firefox tests assuming that browser in most cases). And once we do get our internal testing scheme up to a better state [one of my priorities] we can catch issues [breaks/regressions] much earlier. Doesn't mean we will ever catch them all, nor does it mean we will catch all issues in new features, but it surely helps the confidence :-) -- ~Justin Wood (Callek) ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: So long, and thanks for all the fish
Rufus wrote: Paul B. Gallagher wrote: JeffM wrote: Paul B. Gallagher wrote: Inviting end users who are incapable of coding or testing is an empty promise. Describe more fully incapable of testing. What I mean is that most end users can demo a program, play around for a bit, and generally satisfy themselves that it works for their favorite tasks. They might accidentally stumble upon a problem. But they won't perform rigorous, systematic testing such as navigating to each and every option on a menu. So if you have a feature that's rarely used, or if it doesn't elicit interest or curiosity because of its menu location, name, or description, it won't be tested. In this scenario, you need a very large cohort of testers with very diverse interests (ways of using the program). I test avionics software professionally, even though I don't code any of it - it helps that I'm a pilot, and share a pilots user experience. That's about all that's required, and what you describe is likely sufficient because it highlights specifically what is important to the user; anything that the user doesn't *use* isn't even a consideration as far as an end-user is concerned. ... Well, as I'm sure you know, there's don't use and there's don't use much and there's don't use unless my life is on the line. So it's important that things like parachutes work even if you hardly ever think about them, much less touch them. If you lose an engine or your rudder fails or your fuselage pops its top and starts spraying passengers and flight attendants into the ocean, you have to be able to fly the plane safely anyway (and walk away from the landing, too). So all those things have to be tested. Of course, I understand no lives are at stake here. But there are parallels. And I bet your process is probably much more rigorous and thorough than the average software beta tester's. -- War doesn't determine who's right, just who's left. -- Paul B. Gallagher ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: So long, and thanks for all the fish
Justin Wood (Callek) wrote: Paul B. Gallagher wrote: JeffM wrote: Paul B. Gallagher wrote: Inviting end users who are incapable of coding or testing is an empty promise. Describe more fully incapable of testing. What I mean is that most end users can demo a program, play around for a bit, and generally satisfy themselves that it works for their favorite tasks. They might accidentally stumble upon a problem. But they won't perform rigorous, systematic testing such as navigating to each and every option on a menu. So if you have a feature that's rarely used, or if it doesn't elicit interest or curiosity because of its menu location, name, or description, it won't be tested. In this scenario, you need a very large cohort of testers with very diverse interests (ways of using the program). Allow me to say, that using SeaMonkey the way you intend to use the final product is especially useful, even in our beta's. If you report a problem you do see, in the way you do use the product, it usually helps. Just because you don't touch menu item alpha-omega, or use chatzilla, or whatever, doesn't mean your feedback is not valuable. ... Agreed, it's valuable. But it's incomplete, just as your testing was incomplete until someone using a different-language version tried it. Good example. -- War doesn't determine who's right, just who's left. -- Paul B. Gallagher ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: So long, and thanks for all the fish
JeffM wrote: Hmmm. I've already used this analogy once today (elsewhere). Sometimes it only takes ONE individual to affect a change: http://google.com/search?tbs=dfn:1q=hung-jury Paul B. Gallagher wrote: OK, so if I dedicate my life to making sure everyone knows that it's Effect change, not Affect change, I can make a difference? Or is it just that the world could(n't) care less? ;-) You're expecting me to spell it correctly TWICE in one day? http://groups.google.com/group/comp.os.linux.advocacy/msg/2ee6f9793472c153?q=effect Dreamer. 8-) ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: So long, and thanks for all the fish
Interviewed by CNN on 19/07/2011 21:57, Joe32065 told the world: What fish? I've been using SeaMonkey from the beginning, no fish for me. http://www.amazon.com/So-Long-Thanks-All-Fish/dp/0345479963/ref=sr_1_1?s=booksie=UTF8qid=1311129552sr=1-1 -- MCBastos This message has been protected with the 2ROT13 algorithm. Unauthorized use will be prosecuted under the DMCA. -=-=- ... Sent from my NCR cash register. *Added by TagZilla 0.066.2 running on Seamonkey 2.1 * Get it at http://xsidebar.mozdev.org/modifiedmailnews.html#tagzilla ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: So long, and thanks for all the fish
Rostyslaw Lewyckyj wrote: JeffM wrote: JeffM wrote: Whenever I see these long diatribes about SeaMonkey, I note that they never mention the authors' participation in the Release Candidate trial/review process. Jay Garcia wrote: What else is required other than to be a user, A critique that comes as late as so many of these do could easily be characterized as bitching. OTOH, those folks who are prone to complaining *should* be the ones who point out shortcomings **when something can more easily be done about those** i.e. **early** aka **during pre-release**. All right , then where does the developer coouncil/ governing body publish the details of the planned changes to be introduced in the next release, so that interested users can make their comments known **early** aka **during pre-release**. (and then how closely do they follow/stick to these published plans?) :) :) :) :) .. Some good sources of information on what is going on with releases. Planet Mozilla http://planet.mozilla.org/ Mozilla Wiki https://wiki.mozilla.org/Main_Page MozillaZine Forums in the Build sections. http://forums.mozillazine.org/index.php ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: So long, and thanks for all the fish
d...@kd4e.com wrote in message news:mailman.2967.1310869475.4544.support-seamon...@lists.mozilla.org... I think you may find Midori a superior choice to Chrome. No spying and much tighter code. I took a look but it requires Python 2.4, which I don't have, and am not interested in installing. Such packages should be completely self-contained not requiring externals if they want to move upwards. -- J.Q.P. (FF3.6.18 default browser, customized FF5.0_portable with FF3+ theme, SeaMonkey2.2_portable, Chrome12_portable, Opera11_portable, Iron12_portable, Maxthon3_portable, IE6, Outlook Express default mail/news, XP Home SP3) ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: So long, and thanks for all the fish
Philip Chee wrote: On 18/07/2011 12:50, Philip Chee wrote: On 18/07/2011 10:46, Rostyslaw Lewyckyj wrote: All right, then where does the developer council/ governing body publish the details of the planned changes to be introduced in the next release, so that interested users can make their comments known **early** aka **during pre-release**. (and then how closely do they follow/stick to these published plans?) :) :) :) :) .. For the 2.1 development process: https://wiki.mozilla.org/SeaMonkey:Features:2.1 https://wiki.mozilla.org/SeaMonkey/Features/2.2 https://wiki.mozilla.org/SeaMonkey/Features/2.3 And the fortnightly Tuesday meeting notes of course. https://wiki.mozilla.org/SeaMonkey/StatusMeetings This looks helpful, thanks. However, after v. 2.1 we see only a couple of new features added, nothing about modifications or deletions. Pretty sketchy stuff. A visitor to the 2.1 link gets a great big long list of changes already made, but looking forward to the v. 2.2 and 2.3 pages has very little to respond to. If you're planning to move or take away our cheese, we still don't know about it. -- War doesn't determine who's right, just who's left. -- Paul B. Gallagher ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: So long, and thanks for all the fish
Paul B. Gallagher wrote: Philip Chee wrote: On 18/07/2011 12:50, Philip Chee wrote: On 18/07/2011 10:46, Rostyslaw Lewyckyj wrote: All right, then where does the developer council/ governing body publish the details of the planned changes to be introduced in the next release, so that interested users can make their comments known **early** aka **during pre-release**. (and then how closely do they follow/stick to these published plans?) :) :) :) :) .. For the 2.1 development process: https://wiki.mozilla.org/SeaMonkey:Features:2.1 https://wiki.mozilla.org/SeaMonkey/Features/2.2 https://wiki.mozilla.org/SeaMonkey/Features/2.3 And the fortnightly Tuesday meeting notes of course. https://wiki.mozilla.org/SeaMonkey/StatusMeetings This looks helpful, thanks. However, after v. 2.1 we see only a couple of new features added, nothing about modifications or deletions. Pretty sketchy stuff. A visitor to the 2.1 link gets a great big long list of changes already made, Cast in frozen code. But. Leaving aside bug fixes, which of the remaining items are items forced by Mozilla: Gecko, FF, and TB changes. And which are freely SM. but looking forward to the v. 2.2 and 2.3 pages has very little to respond to. But supposedly, all the feature changes have already been decided, and coded, and therefore could be described in detail. After all from what some have written, they are already now coding 2.5, and 2.2 - 2.4 are in the testing stages! If you're planning to move or take away our cheese, we still don't know about it. Succintly stated! :) We, users, can not influence the product. All we can do is offer our opinions after the fact and choose to stay or leave. -- Rostyk ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: So long, and thanks for all the fish
On 07/18/2011 05:28 PM, Rostyslaw Lewyckyj wrote: Paul B. Gallagher wrote: ... If you're planning to move or take away our cheese, we still don't know about it. Succintly stated! :) We, users, can not influence the product. All we can do is offer our opinions after the fact and choose to stay or leave. I disagree. Users are *always* invited to participate in pre-release nightly testing, submit code, assist in providing suggestion, etc., etc. You'll not find that (or at least not as openly) in other products that offer the same a SeaMonkey. We can all B*%h moan, but the fact remains that SeaMonkey is an opensource *all volunteer* project. If you can't develop, then at least test pre/nightly release. Provide feedback on the mozilla.dev.apps.seamonkey list or ask here. While I may have not agreed with all of the responses/feedback/comments I've received from some developers, I've *always* found the kind folks that support work on SM in their own free time responsive helpful. For that I definately thank them for both the fish and their kind work. If you'd like to help: http://www.seamonkey-project.org/dev/ Here's a thought; change to Thunderbird + Firefox (or Opera or some other mailclient/browser) for awhile. Don't use SeaMonkey. I've actually tried this on multiple occassions I've *always* come back to SeaMonkey. I also tried this on multiple customers/friends/relatives; I installed Opera/Firefox/Zimbra Desktop/Chrome/Thunderbird/Safari, etc., and they *all* came back to SeaMonkey. Bottom line is that 'you' the user can indeed influence SeaMonkey. No it may not happen in 2.2.x, and you may get well we can't due to the Firefox code), but in the end the user *can* influence help SeaMonkey by participating in the project; report bugs, test pre-releases, participate on the dev list, write documentation, etc., etc. I can say that I've not done much (except test pre-releases) lately due to time issues, but I do think that every little bit helps. http://www.seamonkey-project.org/dev/get-involved ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: So long, and thanks for all the fish
Mon, 18 Jul 2011 18:25:47 -0700, /NoOp/: On 07/18/2011 05:28 PM, Rostyslaw Lewyckyj wrote: Paul B. Gallagher wrote: ... If you're planning to move or take away our cheese, we still don't know about it. Succintly stated! :) We, users, can not influence the product. All we can do is offer our opinions after the fact and choose to stay or leave. I disagree. Users are *always* invited to participate in pre-release nightly testing, submit code, assist in providing suggestion, etc., etc. You'll not find that (or at least not as openly) in other products that offer the same a SeaMonkey. [...] And I fully agree with NoOp (including the rest of his reply), and I'm a SeaMonkey user. -- Stanimir ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: So long, and thanks for all the fish
Stanimir Stamenkov wrote: Mon, 18 Jul 2011 18:25:47 -0700, /NoOp/: On 07/18/2011 05:28 PM, Rostyslaw Lewyckyj wrote: Paul B. Gallagher wrote: ... If you're planning to move or take away our cheese, we still don't know about it. Succintly stated! :) We, users, can not influence the product. All we can do is offer our opinions after the fact and choose to stay or leave. I disagree. Users are *always* invited to participate in pre-release nightly testing, submit code, assist in providing suggestion, etc., etc. You'll not find that (or at least not as openly) in other products that offer the same a SeaMonkey. [...] And I fully agree with NoOp (including the rest of his reply), and I'm a SeaMonkey user. I tested SeaMonkey and Mozilla, and even Communicator Nighlies sent in the bug reports and made suggestions. After those years I decided I was wasting my time and effort. as The OP said users don't influence developers. All we can do as users is use the product and when it no longer works as it should decide to live with it or Move on. Unfortunately there really anything out there good enough to move on to. SO other like me I will choose to stay with an older version (the 2.0.x series). The last version that doesn't Break extensions and plugins. -- Phillip M. Jones, C.E.T.If it's Fixed, Don't Break it http://www.phillipmjones.netmailto:pjon...@kimbanet.com ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: So long, and thanks for all the fish
WLS wrote: Some good sources of information on what is going on with releases. Planet Mozilla http://planet.mozilla.org/ Mozilla Wiki https://wiki.mozilla.org/Main_Page MozillaZine Forums in the Build sections. http://forums.mozillazine.org/index.php Thanks. More than I can read at one sitting, but looks promising. -- War doesn't determine who's right, just who's left. -- Paul B. Gallagher ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: So long, and thanks for all the fish
NoOp wrote: On 07/18/2011 05:28 PM, Rostyslaw Lewyckyj wrote: Paul B. Gallagher wrote: ... If you're planning to move or take away our cheese, we still don't know about it. Succinctly stated! :) We, users, can not influence the product. All we can do is offer our opinions after the fact and choose to stay or leave. I disagree. Users are *always* invited to participate in pre-release nightly testing, submit code, assist in providing suggestion, etc., etc. You'll not find that (or at least not as openly) in other products that offer the same as SeaMonkey. Inviting end users who are incapable of coding or testing is an empty promise. Yes, SeaMonkey users tend more toward the power user end of the spectrum, and many of them are very knowledgeable and capable. But I'd still bet a substantial sum of money that the vast majority -- say over 85% -- are just end users. They're familiar with the product, know how to use it well, but are not now and never will be a source of code or design features. So if we shut them out by saying when we want your opinion, we'll give it to you, we're just shooting ourselves in the foot. (Not that I think the Mozilla organization intends that.) The point of this discussion is that the vast majority of SeaMonkey users (other than that very small élite who do contribute) find out about feature changes far too late in the process to provide any useful input. If the developers want to know what end users think, they need to ask them before the code is carved in stone. Do you use XXX always/sometimes/never? Would you like to be able to export YYY to ZZZ format? If we did away with the Forms Manager, would you care? And so forth. As things stand now, the developers have to guess what end users do and think based on their own personal experience with the product and feedback from that very small élite. Mostly they make good choices, but it's a chancy proposition. We can all B*%h moan, but the fact remains that SeaMonkey is an opensource *all volunteer* project. If you can't develop, then at least test pre/nightly release. Provide feedback on the mozilla.dev.apps.seamonkey list or ask here. While I may have not agreed with all of the responses/feedback/comments I've received from some developers, I've *always* found the kind folks that support work on SM in their own free time responsive helpful. For that I definitely thank them for both the fish and their kind work. Please don't misunderstand. Some people are bitchy by nature, but most of the rest of us bitch and moan only when we have a good reason. I was very unhappy with what they did to the Forms Manager a few versions back, and I said so (after the fact, of course!), but I stuck around because I still think SM is the best thing since sliced bread, and on balance I think the developers mean well and work hard to produce an even better product. I don't mean to accuse the developers of bad faith or bad intentions, but any organization has systematic biases and loopholes that allow or even encourage certain characteristic mistakes. And inviting end users to shut up or write code is such a shortcoming. There must be a third way that we can contribute, and that's in the usability area. Remember that all the developers' hard work is pointless if they make an end product usable only by geeks. You may think it's cake to hack an rdf or css file, but most of your users don't, any more than they want to tune up their cars the old-fashioned way with a strobe light. If you'd like to help: http://www.seamonkey-project.org/dev/ Here's a thought; change to Thunderbird + Firefox (or Opera or some other mailclient/browser) for awhile. Don't use SeaMonkey. I've actually tried this on multiple occasions I've *always* come back to SeaMonkey. I also tried this on multiple customers/friends/relatives; I installed Opera/Firefox/Zimbra Desktop/Chrome/Thunderbird/Safari, etc., and they *all* came back to SeaMonkey. Bottom line is that 'you' the user can indeed influence SeaMonkey. No it may not happen in 2.2.x, and you may get well we can't due to the Firefox code), but in the end the user *can* influence help SeaMonkey by participating in the project; report bugs, test pre-releases, participate on the dev list, write documentation, etc., etc. I can say that I've not done much (except test pre-releases) lately due to time issues, but I do think that every little bit helps. http://www.seamonkey-project.org/dev/get-involved Thanks for the invitations. As always, I'll do what I can when I can. I do want the SeaMonkey project to succeed, and a big part of my definition of success is that the program should become popular. -- War doesn't determine who's right, just who's left. -- Paul B. Gallagher ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: So long, and thanks for all the fish
Justin Wood (Callek) ha scritto: On 7/16/2011 10:05 PM, Graham wrote: Once again, I thank the Mozilla and Seamonkey teams for all their efforts: the web and all its browsers are much better for their efforts; even IE has improved by leaps and bounds because of Firefox. I won't be along for the ride, but I will keep an eye open, and may be back one day. Thank you for your constructive comments. While many of us (SeaMonkey Council) share your concerns with the Rapid Release Cycle, the brunt of the matter is that us, as a Mozilla Platform Consumer, are tied to the platform schedule -- unless we want to expose you, our users, to security issues. If the situation on that level changes, we can -- and will -- revisit our release schedule plans. While I do not feel that chrome is a better choice for you as a user, I do not condemn your choice to leave us for the time being, I just hope, one day, you will be back :-) I actually believe that SM is the Mozilla application which best reacted to the rapid release cycle: instead of just changing the version number to the same as firefox, as Thunderbird did, SM kept the 2 major version number, and only uses the second number to distinguish minor releases. So since, if I've understood correctly, passing from SM 2.1 to 2.2 and so on is like it was passing from 2.0.1 to 2.0.2, couldn't add-on developers usually just put a generic 2.* max version, and still be sure that their extension will work, just as it happened by using a max version of 2.0.* with the old release cycle? There will sure be some exceptions, but I think that could work for many (I've seen that many extensions didn't even notice the changes between 2.0 and 2.1). Thanks to the first number, any radical change in the suite can still be marked by passing from SM 2.* to 3.*, and in that case all extensions would correctly require a new check (whereas firefox extensions have the problem that they can never now whether a change in the first number will mean a small or big change, and can thus never use a max version of *, and will have to update their extension every single release). -- Francesco ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: So long, and thanks for all the fish
On 7/17/2011 4:24 AM, Francesco Presel wrote: So since, if I've understood correctly, passing from SM 2.1 to 2.2 and so on is like it was passing from 2.0.1 to 2.0.2, couldn't add-on developers usually just put a generic 2.* max version, and still be sure that their extension will work, just as it happened by using a max version of 2.0.* with the old release cycle? There will sure be some exceptions, but I think that could work for many (I've seen that many extensions didn't even notice the changes between 2.0 and 2.1). Well yes and no. Binary extensions will still need to be recompiled/rechecked. Backend functionality can and will change, and break in the same manner that it does with Firefox. We still will have front end, extension compat breaking changes. Though they will be fewer in number than say 2.0-2.1 Because they are restricted to what we can do in a 6 week period. -- ~Justin Wood (Callek) ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: So long, and thanks for all the fish
JeffM wrote: Whenever I see these long diatribes about SeaMonkey, I note that they never mention the authors' participation in the Release Candidate trial/review process. Jay Garcia wrote: What else is required other than to be a user, A critique that comes as late as so many of these do could easily be characterized as bitching. OTOH, those folks who are prone to complaining *should* be the ones who point out shortcomings **when something can more easily be done about those** i.e. **early** aka **during pre-release**. I thought his post was quite eloquent and nowhere near being trollish. Not complaining about the content; it's the *timing* that bugs me. ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: So long, and thanks for all the fish
JeffM wrote: JeffM wrote: Whenever I see these long diatribes about SeaMonkey, I note that they never mention the authors' participation in the Release Candidate trial/review process. Jay Garcia wrote: What else is required other than to be a user, A critique that comes as late as so many of these do could easily be characterized as bitching. OTOH, those folks who are prone to complaining *should* be the ones who point out shortcomings **when something can more easily be done about those** i.e. **early** aka **during pre-release**. I thought his post was quite eloquent and nowhere near being trollish. Not complaining about the content; it's the *timing* that bugs me. Jeff, Don't be too harsh on these late posters. Some of us will not upgrade until most of the major bugs have been corrected. I am still using SM 2.0.14 because of the reported problems with 2.2, and my own experience in upgrading from Mozilla 1.8 to SM 2.0. These late postings with real live problems should be considered for the next update release and corrected before the release. Michael G PS Forget about Bugzilla, it is a terrible database tracker. MG ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: So long, and thanks for all the fish
JeffM wrote: those folks who are prone to complaining *should* be the ones who point out shortcomings **when something can more easily be done about those** i.e. **early** aka **during pre-release**. Paul B. Gallagher wrote: If you want people to comment before something is finalized, you have to make sure they know about it before it's finalized. True. There is a fly in the ointment. Most end users don't find out about a change until after they've installed it. ...yet those seem to be the same folks who can easily muster the energy to complain **after** it is too late to do any good. And for the 99% who aren't clairvoyant, that's their first chance to comment. Yup. Chicken-and-egg issues everywhere you turn. I wish I was smart enough to provide a solution. ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: So long, and thanks for all the fish
JeffM wrote: Not complaining about the content; it's the *timing* that bugs me. Michael Gordon wrote: Don't be too harsh on these late posters. Well, as long as they don't get *too* whiney. Some of us will not upgrade until most of the major bugs have been corrected. ...which is a choice available to you. (Be thankful you aren't subjected to forced upgrades and automated reboots --Oh, wait. I see you're still running Windoze.) Still, these long-winded after-the-fact complains look more like tantrums than constructive help. Again, *timely* criticism is better. ...and, again, **unlike** that other vendor of crappy software (and its PoS browser), you can have **multiple** installations/versions of Gecko browsers. I'm reminded of the old nut commercial. http://google.com/search?q=%22.a-can-a-week%22+%22.that's.all.we.ask%22+%22.Blue.Diamond%22 ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: So long, and thanks for all the fish
Justin Wood (Callek) wrote: On 7/16/2011 10:05 PM, Graham wrote: Once again, I thank the Mozilla and Seamonkey teams for all their efforts: the web and all its browsers are much better for their efforts; even IE has improved by leaps and bounds because of Firefox. I won't be along for the ride, but I will keep an eye open, and may be back one day. Thank you for your constructive comments. While many of us (SeaMonkey Council) share your concerns with the Rapid Release Cycle, the brunt of the matter is that us, as a Mozilla Platform Consumer, are tied to the platform schedule -- unless we want to expose you, our users, to security issues. If the situation on that level changes, we can -- and will -- revisit our release schedule plans. While I do not feel that chrome is a better choice for you as a user, I do not condemn your choice to leave us for the time being, I just hope, one day, you will be back :-) While I won't be defecting to chrome (I have it but don't like it) I will be sticking with 2.0.x series until it takes choking Breath. I tried 2.2 and not only did it kill most of my extensions I had problems viewing emails with images. I went to check the number of Help applications and had four listings seems it Killed QuickTime 7 Plugin, and Flip4Mac and many other Plugins including Pdf Browser Plugin and all the Flash, Director and other plugins. Just plain dead in the water. I couldn't even use it to get in my own website. Its one thing to break extension bad enough. But when you start messing with Plugins and make viewing of websites unusable That's the last straw. -- Phillip M. Jones, C.E.T.If it's Fixed, Don't Break it http://www.phillipmjones.netmailto:pjon...@kimbanet.com ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: So long, and thanks for all the fish
JeffM wrote: JeffM wrote: Whenever I see these long diatribes about SeaMonkey, I note that they never mention the authors' participation in the Release Candidate trial/review process. Jay Garcia wrote: What else is required other than to be a user, A critique that comes as late as so many of these do could easily be characterized as bitching. OTOH, those folks who are prone to complaining *should* be the ones who point out shortcomings **when something can more easily be done about those** i.e. **early** aka **during pre-release**. All right , then where does the developer coouncil/ governing body publish the details of the planned changes to be introduced in the next release, so that interested users can make their comments known **early** aka **during pre-release**. (and then how closely do they follow/stick to these published plans?) :) :) :) :) .. -- Rostyk ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: So long, and thanks for all the fish
JeffM wrote: those folks who are prone to complaining *should* be the ones who point out shortcomings **when something can more easily be done about those** i.e. **early** aka **during pre-release**. Rostyslaw Lewyckyj wrote: All right , then where does the developer coouncil/ governing body publish the details of the planned changes to be introduced in the next release, so that interested users can make their comments known It sounds like you are back on the *whining* track. I'm **not** talking about people sitting on their butts and flapping their gums. I'm talking about people USING the pre-release versions and FINDING flaws and REPORTING those aka **earning** the right to comment. There seems to be a lot of *looking a gift horse in the mouth* going on without those folks lifting a finger **before** they grouse. ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: So long, and thanks for all the fish
Rostyslaw Lewyckyj wrote: JeffM wrote: JeffM wrote: Whenever I see these long diatribes about SeaMonkey, I note that they never mention the authors' participation in the Release Candidate trial/review process. Jay Garcia wrote: What else is required other than to be a user, A critique that comes as late as so many of these do could easily be characterized as bitching. OTOH, those folks who are prone to complaining *should* be the ones who point out shortcomings **when something can more easily be done about those** i.e. **early** aka **during pre-release**. All right , then where does the developer coouncil/ governing body publish the details of the planned changes to be introduced in the next release, so that interested users can make their comments known **early** aka **during pre-release**. (and then how closely do they follow/stick to these published plans?) :) :) :) :) .. I would bet they weren't planning to break the address book for 2.2, and I'm sure the new development cycle has little/no time for testing before release. And due to the lack of 2.3 I assume there's not going to be any OMG response to address book breakage. -- Bill Davidsen david...@tmr.com We are not out of the woods yet, but we know the direction and have taken the first step. The steps are many, but finite in number, and if we persevere we will reach our destination. -me, 2010 ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: So long, and thanks for all the fish
JeffM wrote: JeffM wrote: those folks who are prone to complaining *should* be the ones who point out shortcomings **when something can more easily be done about those** i.e. **early** aka **during pre-release**. Rostyslaw Lewyckyj wrote: All right , then where does the developer coouncil/ governing body publish the details of the planned changes to be introduced in the next release, so that interested users can make their comments known It sounds like you are back on the *whining* track. I'm **not** talking about people sitting on their butts and flapping their gums. I'm talking about people USING the pre-release versions and FINDING flaws and REPORTING those aka **earning** the right to comment. People D/L and use stuff, if you want a full bore QA on a new versions, why not take a tip form Linux and have a test suite which finds basic missing functionality. Using a pre for normal use seems about all the testing you will get from users, maybe less now that that you have stated that we haven't earned the right to complain about any bug not found before release. There seems to be a lot of *looking a gift horse in the mouth* going on without those folks lifting a finger **before** they grouse. -- Bill Davidsen david...@tmr.com We are not out of the woods yet, but we know the direction and have taken the first step. The steps are many, but finite in number, and if we persevere we will reach our destination. -me, 2010 ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: So long, and thanks for all the fish
On 18/07/2011 10:46, Rostyslaw Lewyckyj wrote: JeffM wrote: JeffM wrote: Whenever I see these long diatribes about SeaMonkey, I note that they never mention the authors' participation in the Release Candidate trial/review process. Jay Garcia wrote: What else is required other than to be a user, A critique that comes as late as so many of these do could easily be characterized as bitching. OTOH, those folks who are prone to complaining *should* be the ones who point out shortcomings **when something can more easily be done about those** i.e. **early** aka **during pre-release**. All right , then where does the developer coouncil/ governing body publish the details of the planned changes to be introduced in the next release, so that interested users can make their comments known **early** aka **during pre-release**. (and then how closely do they follow/stick to these published plans?) :) :) :) :) .. For the 2.1 development process: https://wiki.mozilla.org/SeaMonkey:Features:2.1 https://wiki.mozilla.org/SeaMonkey/Features/2.2 https://wiki.mozilla.org/SeaMonkey/Features/2.3 Phil -- Philip Chee phi...@aleytys.pc.my, philip.c...@gmail.com http://flashblock.mozdev.org/ http://xsidebar.mozdev.org Guard us from the she-wolf and the wolf, and guard us from the thief, oh Night, and so be good for us to pass. ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: So long, and thanks for all the fish
On 18/07/2011 12:50, Philip Chee wrote: On 18/07/2011 10:46, Rostyslaw Lewyckyj wrote: JeffM wrote: JeffM wrote: Whenever I see these long diatribes about SeaMonkey, I note that they never mention the authors' participation in the Release Candidate trial/review process. Jay Garcia wrote: What else is required other than to be a user, A critique that comes as late as so many of these do could easily be characterized as bitching. OTOH, those folks who are prone to complaining *should* be the ones who point out shortcomings **when something can more easily be done about those** i.e. **early** aka **during pre-release**. All right , then where does the developer coouncil/ governing body publish the details of the planned changes to be introduced in the next release, so that interested users can make their comments known **early** aka **during pre-release**. (and then how closely do they follow/stick to these published plans?) :) :) :) :) .. For the 2.1 development process: https://wiki.mozilla.org/SeaMonkey:Features:2.1 https://wiki.mozilla.org/SeaMonkey/Features/2.2 https://wiki.mozilla.org/SeaMonkey/Features/2.3 And the fortnightly Tuesday meeting notes of course. https://wiki.mozilla.org/SeaMonkey/StatusMeetings Phil -- Philip Chee phi...@aleytys.pc.my, philip.c...@gmail.com http://flashblock.mozdev.org/ http://xsidebar.mozdev.org Guard us from the she-wolf and the wolf, and guard us from the thief, oh Night, and so be good for us to pass. ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: So long, and thanks for all the fish
JeffM wrote: JeffM wrote: those folks who are prone to complaining *should* be the ones who point out shortcomings **when something can more easily be done about those** i.e. **early** aka **during pre-release**. Rostyslaw Lewyckyj wrote: All right , then where does the developer coouncil/ governing body publish the details of the planned changes to be introduced in the next release, so that interested users can make their comments known It sounds like you are back on the *whining* track. I'm **not** talking about people sitting on their butts and flapping their gums. I'm talking about people USING the pre-release versions and FINDING flaws and REPORTING those aka **earning** the right to comment. There seems to be a lot of *looking a gift horse in the mouth* going on without those folks lifting a finger **before** they grouse. Well Jeff, thank you for your oh so substantive reply :) You do realize that by the time there is a released pre-release version (for users to adopt), all the feature changes have been set in concrete. Oh the chosen implementations may have coding errors, but the features and how they are to behave, have been selected _and_coded_ . There is no going back to the design stage on that. So for anybody who doesn't like the new and improved features, you say Too bad, You should have told me earlier . And then you post accusing us of: whining and butt sitting and gum flapping when asked about where we are to find the new version features planning document. Tut, tut ... -- Rostyk ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
So long, and thanks for all the fish
I've used the Mozilla suite from the Netscape days on OS/2. Right up to the end of the Seamonkey 1.x series, it always did what I needed, and I am truly grateful for all the effort that's been put into Mozilla, and Seamonkey in particular. I've tried Firefox, and used it extensively at work, but for my own personal use, Seamonkey was just more usable. Then came Seamonkey 2.0, with its badly broken form and password filling and management. With some add-ons, a reasonable degree of functionality was restored, but not all. This has led me to using LastPass, which has had a side-effect - I'm no longer tied to a particular browser. Plugins have always been somewhat problematic with Seamonkey, because as we are all only too well aware, many developers won't test Firefox plugins with Seamonkey, even if they'd most likely just work. However, the important ones (for me) worked most of the time. Then comes Seamonkey 2.1, with yet more user interface changes and some loss of function, and the Firefox inspired rapid release cycle. Although the Firefox team don't seem to see this as a problem, many users do, and we've been treated to the sad sight of developers who would far rather argue than listen. One or two have shown a stunning degree of arrogance which I have found quite off-putting. Just because Chrome can manage a rapid update cycle, with new versions, doesn't mean the Mozilla programs can do it the same way. The way plugins and extension work with Chrome releases is different to the way Mozilla ones work. Unlike Mozilla plugins which need to specify which versions and releases they work with, Chome ones merely need to check for a minimum level of Chrome: if it works today, it will probably work four versions from now. Not so in Mozilla's world. So, I've switched to Chrome. I don't particularly like it, but I'm liking Seamonkey less and less anyway. Chrome doesn't have all the plugins I want, but it has most of them, and despite worries about Google tracking every moment of your life, they do actually provide ways to stop them doing a lot of it, and there's plugins to do some of the rest. (There's also the small matter of not running into so many sites which say I'm not using a supported browser - businesses have quite rapidly adopted Chrome as a supported browser for customers, and the one I work for supports it for internal use too.) Once again, I thank the Mozilla and Seamonkey teams for all their efforts: the web and all its browsers are much better for their efforts; even IE has improved by leaps and bounds because of Firefox. I won't be along for the ride, but I will keep an eye open, and may be back one day. Graham. ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: So long, and thanks for all the fish
I think you may find Midori a superior choice to Chrome. No spying and much tighter code. So, I've switched to Chrome. I don't particularly like it, but I'm liking Seamonkey less and less anyway. Chrome doesn't have all the plugins I want, but it has most of them, and despite worries about Google tracking every moment of your life, they do actually provide ways to stop them doing a lot of it, and there's plugins to do some of the rest. (There's also the small matter of not running into so many sites which say I'm not using a supported browser - businesses have quite rapidly adopted Chrome as a supported browser for customers, and the one I work for supports it for internal use too.) Graham. -- Thanks! 73, KD4E David Colburn http://kd4e.com Have an http://ultrafidian.com day I don't google I SEARCH! STARTPAGE.com Shop Freedom-Friendly http://kd4e.com/of.html ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: So long, and thanks for all the fish
On 7/16/2011 10:05 PM, Graham wrote: Once again, I thank the Mozilla and Seamonkey teams for all their efforts: the web and all its browsers are much better for their efforts; even IE has improved by leaps and bounds because of Firefox. I won't be along for the ride, but I will keep an eye open, and may be back one day. Thank you for your constructive comments. While many of us (SeaMonkey Council) share your concerns with the Rapid Release Cycle, the brunt of the matter is that us, as a Mozilla Platform Consumer, are tied to the platform schedule -- unless we want to expose you, our users, to security issues. If the situation on that level changes, we can -- and will -- revisit our release schedule plans. While I do not feel that chrome is a better choice for you as a user, I do not condemn your choice to leave us for the time being, I just hope, one day, you will be back :-) -- ~Justin Wood (Callek) ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: So long, and thanks for all the fish
Graham wrote: I'm liking Seamonkey less and less [Large amounts of text elided] Whenever I see these long diatribes about SeaMonkey, I note that they never mention the authors' participation in the Release Candidate trial/review process. ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: So long, and thanks for all the fish
Graham wrote: I've used the Mozilla suite from the Netscape days on OS/2. Right up to the end of the Seamonkey 1.x series, it always did what I needed, and I am truly grateful for all the effort that's been put into Mozilla, and Seamonkey in particular. I've tried Firefox, and used it extensively at work, but for my own personal use, Seamonkey was just more usable. Then came Seamonkey 2.0, with its badly broken form and password filling and management. With some add-ons, a reasonable degree of functionality was restored, but not all. This has led me to using LastPass, which has had a side-effect - I'm no longer tied to a particular browser. Plugins have always been somewhat problematic with Seamonkey, because as we are all only too well aware, many developers won't test Firefox plugins with Seamonkey, even if they'd most likely just work. However, the important ones (for me) worked most of the time. Then comes Seamonkey 2.1, with yet more user interface changes and some loss of function, and the Firefox inspired rapid release cycle. Although the Firefox team don't seem to see this as a problem, many users do, and we've been treated to the sad sight of developers who would far rather argue than listen. One or two have shown a stunning degree of arrogance which I have found quite off-putting. Just because Chrome can manage a rapid update cycle, with new versions, doesn't mean the Mozilla programs can do it the same way. The way plugins and extension work with Chrome releases is different to the way Mozilla ones work. Unlike Mozilla plugins which need to specify which versions and releases they work with, Chome ones merely need to check for a minimum level of Chrome: if it works today, it will probably work four versions from now. Not so in Mozilla's world. So, I've switched to Chrome. I don't particularly like it, but I'm liking Seamonkey less and less anyway. Chrome doesn't have all the plugins I want, but it has most of them, and despite worries about Google tracking every moment of your life, they do actually provide ways to stop them doing a lot of it, and there's plugins to do some of the rest. (There's also the small matter of not running into so many sites which say I'm not using a supported browser - businesses have quite rapidly adopted Chrome as a supported browser for customers, and the one I work for supports it for internal use too.) Once again, I thank the Mozilla and Seamonkey teams for all their efforts: the web and all its browsers are much better for their efforts; even IE has improved by leaps and bounds because of Firefox. I won't be along for the ride, but I will keep an eye open, and may be back one day. Graham. I hear you. SM2.+ is different. I guess you never got a good look at the Data Manager or you probably would have said something about it. It's a little confusing to me. I bet I'll learn to deal with it. I hear you. I had to lean to edit install.rdf files to get my extras to work. I've learned a little more about my userChrome.css file. My active tab is now azure. And I can make it any color I want. I hear you. And I'm wondering why you just didn't go quietly? We're not going to stop the party just because one person is going home early. We're just getting started! 8-) Take care.. -- JD.. ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: So long, and thanks for all the fish
While I think some of the criticism is justified, I don't think the predictions are correct. Yes, the transition to the rapid-release train has been troublesome. Not just here on Seamonkey, but in Firefox too. But that happened in large part because extension developers are still getting used to it. It's a When developers realize that a version number jump is much less likely to break compatibility under the new system than under the old, because the changes are smaller; and when they also realize that the rapid-release system tends to discourage radical changes in the program and APIs, I expect them to begin targeting compatibility for a few versions ahead. I mean, the probability of a Firefox 4-compatible extension to work with Firefox 10 is far greater than a Firefox 3.6-compatible extension to work with Firefox 4. So, instead of conservatively tagging an extension as Firefox 5.x, Seamonkey 2.2.x compatible, we are starting to see more Firefox 8.x, Seamonkey 2.6.x compatible. And no, I don't think it's a shot in the dark; it's a fairly reasonable bet, particularly for simple extensions. Complex, security-related extensions such as NoScript or Enigmail will probably keep targeting only the current releases (or perhaps they will move to supporting the next beta). But they were always conservative in that regard anyway. As we settle on the rapid-release train, some of the problems we have been experimenting should resolve themselves. Changes are hard. -- MCBastos This message has been protected with the 2ROT13 algorithm. Unauthorized use will be prosecuted under the DMCA. -=-=- ... Sent from my Motorola StarTAC. *Added by TagZilla 0.066.2 running on Seamonkey 2.1 * Get it at http://xsidebar.mozdev.org/modifiedmailnews.html#tagzilla ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: So long, and thanks for all the fish
JeffM wrote: Graham wrote: I'm liking Seamonkey less and less [Large amounts of text elided] Whenever I see these long diatribes about SeaMonkey, I note that they never mention the authors' participation in the Release Candidate trial/review process. Yup. -JW ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: So long, and thanks for all the fish
On 16.07.2011 22:15, JeffM wrote: --- Original Message --- Graham wrote: I'm liking Seamonkey less and less [Large amounts of text elided] Whenever I see these long diatribes about SeaMonkey, I note that they never mention the authors' participation in the Release Candidate trial/review process. What else is required other than to be a user, I thought his post was quite eloquent and nowhere near being trollish. -- *Jay Garcia - Netscape Champion* www.ufaq.org Netscape - Firefox - SeaMonkey - Thunderbird ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
