Re: [Sursound] YouTube now supports Ambisonics (warning....part advertisement..)

[Michael Chapman]

>

Thanks to Albert I found:


"A Perl script that that 'corrects' the headers on Wave Format Extensible
files."

It won't solve Aaron's problem, but could be modified.

Michael


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Re: [Sursound] YouTube now supports Ambisonics (warning....part advertisement..)

[Politis Archontis]

> That would be wonderful to have a HOA version of this. I had searched on
> your website for the tool to make it myself, but the page doesn't load
> http://mchapman.com/amb/soft/positions/
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Albert

Hi,

is that any different from opening up Reaper or any other DAW with some HOA 
plugins like the AmbiX ones, and encoding your mono test samples to any set of 
directions, and for the order that you need?

Regards,
Archontis
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Re: [Sursound] YouTube now supports Ambisonics (warning....part advertisement..)

[Albert Leusink]

> > Stefan
> 
> Happy to have mine used (with usual academic courtesies ...).
> (It's on ambisonia, or I can send.
> Am working on a HOA version ...)
> 
> Michael
> 

> 




Hello Michael,

That would be wonderful to have a HOA version of this. I had searched on
your website for the tool to make it myself, but the page doesn't load
http://mchapman.com/amb/soft/positions/

Regards,

Albert




> > Stefan
> 
> Happy to have mine used (with usual academic courtesies ...).
> (It's on ambisonia, or I can send.
> Am working on a HOA version ...)
> 
> Michael
> 

> 




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Re: [Sursound] YouTube now supports Ambisonics (warning....part advertisement..)

[Marc Lavallee]

On Tue, 10 May 2016 13:57:36 -0700
Eric Benjamin  wrote:

> When I recorded Haley Jo's lovely voice for the original eight
> directions, I also recorded her announcing other directions.
> Unfortunately I wasn't prescient enough to record every conceivable
> direction. I wonder what would be a good announcement for half height
> positions?

Suggestion:
I was thinking about speech synthesis of azimuth/elevation angles.

--
Marc


> On May 10, 2016, at 12:20 PM, Michael Chapman 
> wrote:
> 
> >> Aaron Heller wrote:
> >>   
> >>> Problem solved.  Here's the YouTube version of one of the most  
> > downloaded file from Ambisonia, AJH_eigtht_positions.amb  
> >>> 
> >>>  https://youtu.be/eY9DMn8pgGA  
> > 
> >   
> >> Well done.
> >> 
> >> Just one suggestion: As VR is a lot about 3D, you could think
> >> about to  
> > extend the "8 positions" demo to some equivalent 3D demo. Which
> > probably would be "26 positions". (3 rings w/ 8 positions each at
> > -45�, 0� and 45� elevation. 2 additional positions at +-90�, i.e.
> > zenith/nadir.)  
> >> 
> >> Stefan  
> > 
> > Happy to have mine used (with usual academic courtesies ...).
> > (It's on ambisonia, or I can send.
> > Am working on a HOA version ...)
> > 
> > Michael
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > ___
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Re: [Sursound] YouTube now supports Ambisonics (warning....part advertisement..)

[Eric Benjamin]

When I recorded Haley Jo's lovely voice for the original eight directions, I 
also recorded her announcing other directions. Unfortunately I wasn't prescient 
enough to record every conceivable direction. I wonder what would be a good 
announcement for half height positions?

Sent from my iPhone

On May 10, 2016, at 12:20 PM, Michael Chapman  wrote:

>> Aaron Heller wrote:
>> 
>>> Problem solved.  Here's the YouTube version of one of the most
> downloaded file from Ambisonia, AJH_eigtht_positions.amb
>>> 
>>>  https://youtu.be/eY9DMn8pgGA
> 
> 
>> Well done.
>> 
>> Just one suggestion: As VR is a lot about 3D, you could think about to
> extend the "8 positions" demo to some equivalent 3D demo. Which probably
> would be "26 positions". (3 rings w/ 8 positions each at -45�, 0�
> and 45� elevation. 2 additional positions at +-90�, i.e.
> zenith/nadir.)
>> 
>> Stefan
> 
> Happy to have mine used (with usual academic courtesies ...).
> (It's on ambisonia, or I can send.
> Am working on a HOA version ...)
> 
> Michael
> 
> 
> 
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Re: [Sursound] YouTube now supports Ambisonics (warning....part advertisement..)

[Richard]

Don't forget the programs 'copysfx' and 'chxformat' in the CDP 
MultiChannel Toolkit enable users to tinker with channel masks, 
including setting to zero (if that helps), or of course to write a plain 
old multichannel WAVE file.


Richard Dobson
http://people.bath.ac.uk/masrwd/mctools.html





On 10/05/2016 20:30, Michael Chapman wrote:




Here's the problem  when writing a video file, FFMPEG appears to use
the channel_mask from the audio file even if a different channel_mask is
specified on the command line.   So even when I specified
"-channel_layout
4.0", the resulting MOV file still had the channel layout set to "quad",
which was then rejected by YouTube.



1)
You can (quite easily) use a hex editor (standard on most Linuxes) to edit
the *.wav.

Or even script this.

Seem to remember doing this about ten years, yawn, ago ...  (Could do some
digging!)

2)
TheSoX people were really nice.

A "sox -force_channel_mask 4.0" could be requested
though
a request "sox -force_channel_mask abcd" that would allow any mask would
be more 'democratic'.

Michael

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Re: [Sursound] YouTube now supports Ambisonics (warning....part advertisement..)

[Marc Lavallee]

On Tue, 10 May 2016 19:21:37 - (GMT)
"Michael Chapman"  wrote:
> > Micheal Chapman did it in 2007:
> > http://ambisonia.com/Members/michael/ambisonicfile.2008-07-05.2994956247/
> >
> > A newer version could be done with a HOA panner and voice synthesis.
> >
> > --
> > Marc  
> 
> Ouch, just said 'working on it'.
> 
> OK : "reallyworking on it" !!!
> 
> Michael

I'm not working on it, but I though it could be nice to create a script
to automate the process for many languages and number of positions.

--
Marc
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Re: [Sursound] YouTube now supports Ambisonics (warning....part advertisement..)

[Michael Chapman]

>> Aaron Heller wrote:
>> >   https://youtu.be/eY9DMn8pgGA
>
> On Mon, 09 May 2016 00:02:49 +0100, Stefan Schreiber wrote:
>> Well done.
>>
>> Just one suggestion: As VR is a lot about 3D, you could think about to
extend the "8 positions" demo to some equivalent 3D demo. Which
probably would be "26 positions". (3 rings w/ 8 positions each at
-45º, 0º and 45º elevation. 2 additional positions at +-90º, i.e.
zenith/nadir.)
>
> Micheal Chapman did it in 2007:
> http://ambisonia.com/Members/michael/ambisonicfile.2008-07-05.2994956247/
>
> A newer version could be done with a HOA panner and voice synthesis.
>
> --
> Marc

Ouch, just said 'working on it'.

OK : "reallyworking on it" !!!

Michael




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Re: [Sursound] YouTube now supports Ambisonics (warning....part advertisement..)

[Michael Chapman]

> Aaron Heller wrote:
>
>>Problem solved.  Here's the YouTube version of one of the most
downloaded file from Ambisonia, AJH_eigtht_positions.amb
>>
>>   https://youtu.be/eY9DMn8pgGA


> Well done.
>
> Just one suggestion: As VR is a lot about 3D, you could think about to
extend the "8 positions" demo to some equivalent 3D demo. Which probably
would be "26 positions". (3 rings w/ 8 positions each at -45�, 0�
and 45� elevation. 2 additional positions at +-90�, i.e.
zenith/nadir.)
>
> Stefan

Happy to have mine used (with usual academic courtesies ...).
(It's on ambisonia, or I can send.
Am working on a HOA version ...)

Michael



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Re: [Sursound] YouTube now supports Ambisonics (warning....part advertisement..)

[Marc Lavallee]

On Tue, 10 May 2016 16:11:11 +0200, David Pickett wrote:
> No criticism of the system -- it must be me, because LEFT BACK and 
> LEFT FRONT are indistinguishable.
> 
> Disappointing...
> 
> David 

Hi David.

It's you, but it's not "your fault" because everyone is different. Can
you compare the same file (AJH_eight-positions) using
http://ambisonic.xyz/? (Chrome required), or with the AmbiExplorer app?
The trick is to find the HRTF that fits you, which could be a tedious
task. So you could try the spherical model first, because it could be
similar to the one used by Youtube, then you could compare with others
from the CIPIC and LISTEN HRTF sets.

--
Marc

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Re: [Sursound] YouTube now supports Ambisonics (warning....part advertisement..)

[Marc Lavallée]

> Aaron Heller wrote:
> >   https://youtu.be/eY9DMn8pgGA

On Mon, 09 May 2016 00:02:49 +0100, Stefan Schreiber wrote:
> Well done.
> 
> Just one suggestion: As VR is a lot about 3D, you could think about
> to extend the "8 positions" demo to some equivalent 3D demo. Which
> probably would be "26 positions". (3 rings w/ 8 positions each at
> -45º, 0º and 45º elevation. 2 additional positions at +-90º, i.e.
> zenith/nadir.)

Micheal Chapman did it in 2007:
http://ambisonia.com/Members/michael/ambisonicfile.2008-07-05.2994956247/

A newer version could be done with a HOA panner and voice synthesis.

--
Marc
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Re: [Sursound] YouTube now supports Ambisonics (warning....part advertisement..)

[Stefan Schreiber]

Aaron Heller wrote:


Problem solved.  Here's the YouTube version of one of the most downloaded
file from Ambisonia, AJH_eigtht_positions.amb

  https://youtu.be/eY9DMn8pgGA

Thanks to Albert, Dillon, Bruce, and Marc for suggestions.  Dillon
diagnosed the problem, but it took a while to discover that the fix had to
be applied farther upstream in my processing chain.

TL:DR: use a plain old WAV_PCM file for the audio input to FFMPEG, not a
WAVE-EX file.


I am using the remix effect in SOX to convert from AMB format to ACN/SN3D
-- "remix -m 1 3v0.7071 4v0.7071 2v0.7071".   When sox writes out a
4-channel file it defaults to WAVE-FORMAT-EXTENSIBLE (which is correct
according to the MS standards) with the channel mask set to "quad". I don't
see anyway to change that to 4.0.

Here's the problem  when writing a video file, FFMPEG appears to use
the channel_mask from the audio file even if a different channel_mask is
specified on the command line.   So even when I specified  "-channel_layout
4.0", the resulting MOV file still had the channel layout set to "quad",
which was then rejected by YouTube.

The workaround is to use the option "-t wavpcm" to force SOX produce a
plain old WAVPCM file.  (note that use of WAVPCM for more then 2 channels
is undocumented).  As a belt-and-suspenders measure, I added
"-guess_layout_max 0" to the input in FFMPEG.

I wrote a Python script that automates the whole process from AMB to MOV
with spatial metadata.  You can find it here:

  https://bitbucket.org/ambidecodertoolbox/amb2yt/src/master/amb2yt.py


--
Aaron Heller (hel...@ai.sri.com)
Menlo Park, CA  US
 



Well done.

Just one suggestion: As VR is a lot about 3D, you could think about to 
extend the "8 positions" demo to some equivalent 3D demo. Which probably 
would be "26 positions". (3 rings w/ 8 positions each at -45º, 0º and 
45º elevation. 2 additional positions at +-90º, i.e. zenith/nadir.)


Stefan



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Re: [Sursound] YouTube now supports Ambisonics (warning....part advertisement..)

[Bruce Wiggins]

Currently, the surround (binaural)  audio only works on Android
devices.

Cheers

Bruce

On Sun, 8 May 2016 09:29 David Pickett,  wrote:

> At 04:05 08-05-16, Aaron Heller wrote:
>
>  >Problem solved.  Here's the YouTube version of one of the most downloaded
>  >file from Ambisonia, AJH_eigtht_positions.amb
>  >
>  >   https://youtu.be/eY9DMn8pgGA
>
>
> Exciting news -- thanks Aaron!
>
> But I must have missed something earlier.  What do I do to play this
> back in 4.0?  Using Chrome, I have no problems with the BBC Proms, or
> my own test page at http://www.fugato.com/pickett/surround-tests.shtml
>
> David
>
>
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Re: [Sursound] YouTube now supports Ambisonics (warning....part advertisement..)

[David Pickett]

At 04:05 08-05-16, Aaron Heller wrote:

>Problem solved.  Here's the YouTube version of one of the most downloaded
>file from Ambisonia, AJH_eigtht_positions.amb
>
>   https://youtu.be/eY9DMn8pgGA


Exciting news -- thanks Aaron!

But I must have missed something earlier.  What do I do to play this 
back in 4.0?  Using Chrome, I have no problems with the BBC Proms, or 
my own test page at http://www.fugato.com/pickett/surround-tests.shtml


David


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Re: [Sursound] YouTube now supports Ambisonics (warning....part advertisement..)

[Dillon Cower]

Hi Aaron,

Currently the channel layout for upload to YouTube must be 4.0 or
unspecified ;
e.g., with ffmpeg, specify "-channel_layout 4.0". We're working on
improving things regarding other channel layouts. Apologies for the
confusion in the meantime!

Dillon

On Mon, Apr 25, 2016 at 2:43 PM Bruce Wiggins 
wrote:

> I've documented the workflow and commands that worked for me here:
> http://www.brucewiggins.co.uk/?p=666
>
> cheers
>
> Bruce
>
> On Mon, Apr 25, 2016 at 10:15 PM Albert Leusink 
> wrote:
>
> > Aaron Heller  writes:
> >
> > >
> > > Is there some trick to uploading these files?  The files I make upload,
> > but
> > > then fail during processing.
> > >
> >
> >
> > Hi Aaron,
> >
> > Try this, start with an MP4 video file and the 4-channel .wav ACN audio
> > file. Maybe the issue is that you are trying to loop a still image?
> Also, I
> > did not specify quad layout, I just attached the 4-ch .wav.
> >
> >
> >  -i YT_Videofile.mp4 -i YT_ACN_audiofile.wav -map 0:0 -map 1:0 -c:a copy
> > -async 1 -c:v copy -aspect 1920:960 -pix_fmt yuv420p -threads 8 -metadata
> > creation_time=now -sn -y YoutubeFinal.mov
> >
> > It takes about 4 hours for the spatial audio (with the rotation) to fully
> > process after you upload it (sometimes longer), but you should be able to
> > hear the ACN rendered to stereo pretty soon after you upload.
> >
> > Hope that helps,
> >
> > Albert
> >
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Re: [Sursound] YouTube now supports Ambisonics (warning....part advertisement..)

[Aaron Heller]

Is there some trick to uploading these files?  The files I make upload, but
then fail during processing.

 I make the files like this:

$ /opt/local/bin/ffmpeg -loop 1 -framerate 30 -i cube-1920x960.png -i
> AJH_eight-positions-ambix.wav -map 0:v -map 1:a -c:a pcm_s16le
> -channel_layout quad  -c:v libx264 -preset medium -tune stillimage
> -shortest -pix_fmt yuv420p output-png-30fps-pcm_s16le-quad.mov



then use Dillon's "Spatial Media Metadata Injector" (SMMI for short) like
this:

$ python spatialmedia --inject --spatial-audio
> output-png-30fps-pcm_s16le-quad.mov
> output-png-30fps-pcm_s16le-quad-inject-spatial-audio.mov
> Processing: output-png-30fps-pcm_s16le-quad.mov
> Saved file settings
> Track 0
> Spherical = true
> Stitched = true
> StitchingSoftware = Spherical Metadata Tool
> ProjectionType = equirectangular
> Track 1
> Ambisonic Type: periphonic
> Ambisonic Order: 1
> Ambisonic Channel Ordering: ACN
> Ambisonic Normalization: SN3D
> Number of Channels: 4
> Channel Map: [0, 1, 2, 3]


and then use Google Chrome to upload
 output-png-30fps-pcm_s16le-quad-inject-spatial-audio.mov to my account on
YouTube and the file uploads, but then YouTube reports " Upload failed:
Can't process file"

If I don't specify --spatial-audio on the SMMI, the resulting file uploads
and processes just fine.  The spherical video works, but no spatial audio.
You can find it here:  https://youtu.be/dyf_BXpqeMg

I also tried different audio codecs  '-c:a libfdk_aac -b:a 512k' and '-c:a
libvorbis -b:a 512k' and different containers 'mp4' and 'mkv' -- no joy.

Any ideas anyone???  (Am I on double-secret probation?  Do I need upload
insurance?)


Aaron (hel...@ai.sri.com)
Menlo Park, CA  US


On Fri, Apr 22, 2016 at 12:06 PM, Bruce Wiggins 
wrote:
>
> We've been running a few tests and I'll be putting more details up on my
> website when we're happy with the results.
>
> 360 Ambisonic VR Tests:
> http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL6JlYpSUt3kgtQJou2AfgAVtWA5a6SMO1
>
> The use of wav over aac, by the way, is more to do with ffmpeg messing
with
> the channel order, which is a pain.  Much easier to use pcm.
>
> Cheers
>
> Bruce
>
> On Fri, 22 Apr 2016 17:07 Marc Lavallee,  wrote:
>
> > On Fri, 22 Apr 2016 17:42:34 +0200
> > Bo-Erik Sandholm  wrote:
> >
> > > Hi
> > > I suspect it could be possible to create a 360 video containing  one
> > > cicular/ball panorama with FOA sound and play that via youtube?
> >
> > But only using their Youtube Android app... Those using a
> > non-google-appified Cyagenmod as their Android OS cannot use the
> > Youtube app, because all the google-apps must be installed first.
> > Google is breaking EU antitrust rules:
> > http://europa.eu/rapid/press-release_MEMO-16-1484_en.htm
> >
> > > Is this possible? if so, which tools to use to create a video to
> > > upload.
> >
> > Check:
> >
https://support.google.com/youtube/answer/6395969?hl=en_topic=2888648
> > Then:
> > https://trac.ffmpeg.org/wiki/Encode/YouTube
> >
> > The video must be in equirectangular 2:1 format.
> >
> > > I have foa recordings of my own and panoramas from the recording.
> > > Bo-Erik
> >
> > I hope to soon provide a browser based alternative to the Youtube app.
> > --
> > Marc
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Re: [Sursound] YouTube now supports Ambisonics (warning....part advertisement..)

[Bruce Wiggins]

We've been running a few tests and I'll be putting more details up on my
website when we're happy with the results.

360 Ambisonic VR Tests:
http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL6JlYpSUt3kgtQJou2AfgAVtWA5a6SMO1

The use of wav over aac, by the way, is more to do with ffmpeg messing with
the channel order, which is a pain.  Much easier to use pcm.

Cheers

Bruce

On Fri, 22 Apr 2016 17:07 Marc Lavallee,  wrote:

> On Fri, 22 Apr 2016 17:42:34 +0200
> Bo-Erik Sandholm  wrote:
>
> > Hi
> > I suspect it could be possible to create a 360 video containing  one
> > cicular/ball panorama with FOA sound and play that via youtube?
>
> But only using their Youtube Android app... Those using a
> non-google-appified Cyagenmod as their Android OS cannot use the
> Youtube app, because all the google-apps must be installed first.
> Google is breaking EU antitrust rules:
> http://europa.eu/rapid/press-release_MEMO-16-1484_en.htm
>
> > Is this possible? if so, which tools to use to create a video to
> > upload.
>
> Check:
> https://support.google.com/youtube/answer/6395969?hl=en_topic=2888648
> Then:
> https://trac.ffmpeg.org/wiki/Encode/YouTube
>
> The video must be in equirectangular 2:1 format.
>
> > I have foa recordings of my own and panoramas from the recording.
> > Bo-Erik
>
> I hope to soon provide a browser based alternative to the Youtube app.
> --
> Marc
>
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Re: [Sursound] YouTube now supports Ambisonics (warning....part advertisement..)

[Marc Lavallee]

Hi Chris.

Can you give us more infos about this "open source" object-based
platform? Because sometimes, "open source" can mean "mostly closed".

Also, PCM (or LCPM) is a lossless format; how can DSD sound better at
the same resolution? Are you referring to the format or the hardware?

--
Marc

On Thu, 21 Apr 2016 18:26:17 + (UTC)
chris boozer  wrote:

> DTS-X is based upon an open object codec that SRS labs developed and
> open sourced,     the decoder  is a proprietary implementation but
> anyone can make their own decoder. DTS acquired SRS labs to get the
> technology, it is superior to Dolby Atmos and is scale-able from
> bin-aural headphones all the way to 64 channels. Even Dialog can be a
> separate object, so you can turn up dialog, but not the rest of
> center channel info, or even have a left and right center channel so
> when 2 people are on screen their voices come from their side of the
> screen! All of this with no changes to the mix just like Ambisonics,
> speaker layout is configurable in the decoder. Has anyone here tried
> converting B-format to DTS-X or Dolby Atmos? Also all a/d converters
> are essential DSD bit-stream with decimation filters added on to
> produce PCM. I much prefer the sound of DSD recorded, processed and
> mixed in DSD, without any PCM conversion. It simply sounds better
> than any PCM I have heard. I would be curios to hear b-format done
> entirely in DSD. Thanks in advance.  Chris Boozer 
> 
> On Thursday, April 21, 2016 9:45 AM, Aaron Heller
>  wrote: 
> 
>  On Thu, Apr 21, 2016 at 12:14 AM, Trond Lossius
>  wrote:
> 
> > > On 20 Apr 2016, at 21:16, Marc Lavallee  wrote:
> > >
> > > I wonder why using uncompressed PCM instead of compressed AAC...  
> >
> > Is there a risk of compressed audio altering the phase between the
> > channels, affecting the spatial image?
> >  
> 
> Marc and I looked at this informally when he was developing
> ambisonic.xyz. We took panned first-order B-format (e.g.,
> AJH-eight-positions.amb), though an encode/decode cycle with
> candidate codecs, and then looked at the spatial spreading of energy
> with a simple parametric decoder.  No listening tests, just visual
> comparison of plots of spatial energy.
> 
> We found very little spreading with low-complexity AAC, but a fair
> amount with HE-AAC.
> 
> Aaron Heller (hel...@ai.sri.com)
> Menlo Park, CA  US
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Re: [Sursound] YouTube now supports Ambisonics (warning....part advertisement..)

[chris boozer]

DTS-X is based upon an open object codec that SRS labs developed and open 
sourced,     the decoder  is a proprietary implementation but anyone can make 
their own decoder. DTS acquired SRS labs to get the technology, it is superior 
to Dolby Atmos and is scale-able from bin-aural headphones all the way to 64 
channels. Even Dialog can be a separate object, so you can turn up dialog, but 
not the rest of center channel info, or even have a left and right center 
channel so when 2 people are on screen their voices come from their side of the 
screen! All of this with no changes to the mix just like Ambisonics, speaker 
layout is configurable in the decoder. Has anyone here tried converting 
B-format to DTS-X or Dolby Atmos? Also all a/d converters are essential DSD 
bit-stream with decimation filters added on to produce PCM. I much prefer the 
sound of DSD recorded, processed and mixed in DSD, without any PCM conversion. 
It simply sounds better than any PCM I have heard. I would be curios to hear 
b-format done entirely in DSD. Thanks in advance.  Chris Boozer 

On Thursday, April 21, 2016 9:45 AM, Aaron Heller  wrote:
 

 On Thu, Apr 21, 2016 at 12:14 AM, Trond Lossius 
wrote:

> > On 20 Apr 2016, at 21:16, Marc Lavallee  wrote:
> >
> > I wonder why using uncompressed PCM instead of compressed AAC...
>
> Is there a risk of compressed audio altering the phase between the
> channels, affecting the spatial image?
>

Marc and I looked at this informally when he was developing ambisonic.xyz.
  We took panned first-order B-format (e.g., AJH-eight-positions.amb),
though an encode/decode cycle with candidate codecs, and then looked at the
spatial spreading of energy with a simple parametric decoder.  No listening
tests, just visual comparison of plots of spatial energy.

We found very little spreading with low-complexity AAC, but a fair amount
with HE-AAC.

Aaron Heller (hel...@ai.sri.com)
Menlo Park, CA  US
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Re: [Sursound] YouTube now supports Ambisonics (warning....part advertisement..)

[Marc Lavallee]

I could provide an online listening test to compare PCM and
LC-AAC (compressed with the FDK-AAC encoder), with a live A-B switch,
along with the graphs that Aaron made, so that people with
scientifically enhanced golden ears can give some feedback. A blind
test would be even better. With the settings I used (the default one),
we noticed that the LC-AAC profile have a 16K low-pass filter, which I
believed should be fine for most listeners.
--
Marc

On Thu, 21 Apr 2016 09:45:37 -0700
Aaron Heller  wrote:
> On Thu, Apr 21, 2016 at 12:14 AM, Trond Lossius 
> wrote:
> > > On 20 Apr 2016, at 21:16, Marc Lavallee  wrote:
> > > I wonder why using uncompressed PCM instead of compressed AAC...  
> >
> > Is there a risk of compressed audio altering the phase between the
> > channels, affecting the spatial image?
> 
> Marc and I looked at this informally when he was developing
> ambisonic.xyz. We took panned first-order B-format (e.g.,
> AJH-eight-positions.amb), though an encode/decode cycle with
> candidate codecs, and then looked at the spatial spreading of energy
> with a simple parametric decoder.  No listening tests, just visual
> comparison of plots of spatial energy.
> 
> We found very little spreading with low-complexity AAC, but a fair
> amount with HE-AAC.
> 
> Aaron Heller (hel...@ai.sri.com)
> Menlo Park, CA  US
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Re: [Sursound] YouTube now supports Ambisonics (warning....part advertisement..)

[Aaron Heller]

On Thu, Apr 21, 2016 at 12:14 AM, Trond Lossius 
wrote:

> > On 20 Apr 2016, at 21:16, Marc Lavallee  wrote:
> >
> > I wonder why using uncompressed PCM instead of compressed AAC...
>
> Is there a risk of compressed audio altering the phase between the
> channels, affecting the spatial image?
>

Marc and I looked at this informally when he was developing ambisonic.xyz.
  We took panned first-order B-format (e.g., AJH-eight-positions.amb),
though an encode/decode cycle with candidate codecs, and then looked at the
spatial spreading of energy with a simple parametric decoder.  No listening
tests, just visual comparison of plots of spatial energy.

We found very little spreading with low-complexity AAC, but a fair amount
with HE-AAC.

Aaron Heller (hel...@ai.sri.com)
Menlo Park, CA  US
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Re: [Sursound] YouTube now supports Ambisonics (warning....part advertisement..)

[Trond Lossius]

> On 20 Apr 2016, at 21:16, Marc Lavallee  wrote:
> 
> I wonder why using uncompressed PCM instead of compressed AAC...

Is there a risk of compressed audio altering the phase between the channels, 
affecting the spatial image? 

Cheers,
Trond
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Re: [Sursound] YouTube now supports Ambisonics (warning....part advertisement..)

[Albert Leusink]

Politis Archontis  writes:

> 
> Hi Albert,
> 
> This is interesting!
> I don’t have an android and I cannot test it unfortunately. I would like
to ask what are you doing with the
> B-format? decode it to headphones dynamically?
> 
> Archontis
> 

Hi Archontis,

For now, the YouTube app handles the rotation and binaural decoding
dynamically using a generic HRTF (not sure which one). 

I didn't own an Android myself either, but bought one just for these
reasons. Hopefully Apple will follow suit soon and starts supporting it on
their devices. Word is that they are much more difficult to deal with in
terms of developing for them, which is unfortunate, as they used to be the
innovators, but are acting more like IBM lately.

Albert


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Re: [Sursound] YouTube now supports Ambisonics (warning....part advertisement..)

[Albert Leusink]

Marc Lavallee  writes:

> 
> On Wed, 20 Apr 2016 18:09:40 +0200
> David Pickett  wrote:
> 
> > At 17:29 20-04-16, Albert Leusink wrote:
> > 
> >  >YouTube is now supporting ACN/SN3D FOA attached to a .mov video
> >  >container as uncompressed PCM audio.  
> > 
> > I am sure I should know, but if this is a multitrack thing, what do 
> > the channels each contain?  B format or what?
> > 
> 
> I wonder why using uncompressed PCM instead of compressed AAC...
> --
> Marc
> 

Hi Marc,

Apparently there are some issues with AAC decoding and certain Android
phones. You could upload it to the YouTube player and it will work fine on
that end, but certain mobile devices cannot handle it properly, so for now
they are trying to prevent those issues.

Albert


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Re: [Sursound] YouTube now supports Ambisonics (warning....part advertisement..)

[Albert Leusink]

David Pickett  writes:

> 
> At 18:39 20-04-16, Politis Archontis wrote:
> 
>  >Hi David,
>  >
>  >if you are asking if the ACN/SN3D FOA is the same as the B-format,
>  >yes, first-order is the B-format anyway you look at it.
>  >The B-format in ACN/SN3D convention is the same as in the traditional
>  >definition without the W scaling and in the ACN order:
>  >
>  >B_ACN_SN3D = [sqrt(2)*W Y Z X].
>  >
> 
> Thanks!  So what client do I need to play such a video on my computer 
> and output 4.0 or whatever through my soundcard, please?  Does the 
> browser take care of the matrixing?  Can I change the values of the 
> parameters?  Is there likely to be shelf filtering available in the 
> browser or the player?
> 
> David
> 

Right now, the rotational feature is only supported on Android phones using
the YouTube app (unfortunately), not through the browser. The binaural
decoding is built into the app, using a generic HRTF, not sure about the
exact technical specs. I'm sure it's pretty bare bones currently, but
ideally in the future we would have Harpex style decoding.


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Re: [Sursound] YouTube now supports Ambisonics (warning....part advertisement..)

[Albert Leusink]

David Pickett  writes:

> 
> At 17:29 20-04-16, Albert Leusink wrote:
> 
>  >YouTube is now supporting ACN/SN3D FOA attached to a .mov video container as
>  >uncompressed PCM audio.
> 
> I am sure I should know, but if this is a multitrack thing, what do 
> the channels each contain?  B format or what?
> 
> David
> 

Hi David,

We recorded this the regular way, multitrack using mono and stereo channels
and then we panned these channels into the 3rd order Ambisonic soundfield
using VST plugins (BlueRippleSound in my case), then you output the
16channel 3rd order FuMa mixdown file, convert it to ACN/SN3D (with another
Blue Ripple plugin), disregard the last 12 channels (which we'll keep for
when MPEG-H ever rolls around) and those first 4 channels are your B-format,
ACN/SN3D compatible.


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Re: [Sursound] YouTube now supports Ambisonics (warning....part advertisement..)

[Marc Lavallee]

On Wed, 20 Apr 2016 18:09:40 +0200
David Pickett  wrote:

> At 17:29 20-04-16, Albert Leusink wrote:
> 
>  >YouTube is now supporting ACN/SN3D FOA attached to a .mov video
>  >container as uncompressed PCM audio.  
> 
> I am sure I should know, but if this is a multitrack thing, what do 
> the channels each contain?  B format or what?
> 

I wonder why using uncompressed PCM instead of compressed AAC...
--
Marc
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Re: [Sursound] YouTube now supports Ambisonics (warning....part advertisement..)

[David Pickett]

At 18:39 20-04-16, Politis Archontis wrote:

>Hi David,
>
>if you are asking if the ACN/SN3D FOA is the same as the B-format,
>yes, first-order is the B-format anyway you look at it.
>The B-format in ACN/SN3D convention is the same as in the traditional
>definition without the W scaling and in the ACN order:
>
>B_ACN_SN3D = [sqrt(2)*W Y Z X].
>

Thanks!  So what client do I need to play such a video on my computer 
and output 4.0 or whatever through my soundcard, please?  Does the 
browser take care of the matrixing?  Can I change the values of the 
parameters?  Is there likely to be shelf filtering available in the 
browser or the player?


David

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Re: [Sursound] YouTube now supports Ambisonics (warning....part advertisement..)

[Politis Archontis]

Hi Albert,

This is interesting!
I don’t have an android and I cannot test it unfortunately. I would like to ask 
what are you doing with the B-format? decode it to headphones dynamically?

Archontis

> On 20 Apr 2016, at 18:29, Albert Leusink  wrote:
> 
> Hello all,
> 
> Some welcome news,
> 
> YouTube is now supporting ACN/SN3D FOA attached to a .mov video container as
> uncompressed PCM audio. 
> 
> This is great, as most of the world gets a lot of their content through
> YouTube and now they'll all get to experience the power of Ambisonics!.
> 
> For now, it only works on Android, using the YouTube app, but hopefully soon
> more platforms will be supported, if we create enough good content in this
> format.
> 
> To contribute to that end, we've started our own channel, 360 Performances,
> featuring music and performing arts in 360º video and recorded/mixed in
> Ambisonics:
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC6_696Vph-306CVsenXvbvQ
> 
> Hopefully this will turn into something viable, and we can continue doing
> this for more artists and keep releasing new content in this manner.
> 
> As nowadays it's more about the number of subscribers/likes/views than the
> quality of the content, please do subscribe to the channel if you like this
> (and even if you don't like it, you can still subscribe...:-)
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Albert
> 
> (PS I don't work for YouTube)
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Re: [Sursound] YouTube now supports Ambisonics (warning....part advertisement..)

[Politis Archontis]

Hi David,

if you are asking if the ACN/SN3D FOA is the same as the B-format, yes, 
first-order is the B-format anyway you look at it. 
The B-format in ACN/SN3D convention is the same as in the traditional 
definition without the W scaling and in the ACN order:

B_ACN_SN3D = [sqrt(2)*W Y Z X]. 

Regards,
Archontis



> On 20 Apr 2016, at 19:09, David Pickett  wrote:
> 
> At 17:29 20-04-16, Albert Leusink wrote:
> 
> >YouTube is now supporting ACN/SN3D FOA attached to a .mov video container as
> >uncompressed PCM audio.
> 
> I am sure I should know, but if this is a multitrack thing, what do the 
> channels each contain?  B format or what?
> 
> David
> 
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Re: [Sursound] YouTube now supports Ambisonics (warning....part advertisement..)

[David Pickett]

At 17:29 20-04-16, Albert Leusink wrote:

>YouTube is now supporting ACN/SN3D FOA attached to a .mov video container as
>uncompressed PCM audio.

I am sure I should know, but if this is a multitrack thing, what do 
the channels each contain?  B format or what?


David

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[Sursound] YouTube now supports Ambisonics (warning....part advertisement..)

[Albert Leusink]

Hello all,

Some welcome news,

YouTube is now supporting ACN/SN3D FOA attached to a .mov video container as
uncompressed PCM audio. 

This is great, as most of the world gets a lot of their content through
YouTube and now they'll all get to experience the power of Ambisonics!.

For now, it only works on Android, using the YouTube app, but hopefully soon
more platforms will be supported, if we create enough good content in this
format.

To contribute to that end, we've started our own channel, 360 Performances,
featuring music and performing arts in 360º video and recorded/mixed in
Ambisonics:

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC6_696Vph-306CVsenXvbvQ

Hopefully this will turn into something viable, and we can continue doing
this for more artists and keep releasing new content in this manner.

As nowadays it's more about the number of subscribers/likes/views than the
quality of the content, please do subscribe to the channel if you like this
(and even if you don't like it, you can still subscribe...:-)

Regards,

Albert

(PS I don't work for YouTube)
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