Re: [biofuel] Weapons of Mass Deception

[Walt Patrick]

At 08:07 AM 3/2/04 -0500, Alan wrote:
 >Walt Patrick wrote:
 >>  >I think you're falling into your own trap of seeing things according
 >>  >to a partisan agenda, but in a different, much broader, and much more
 >>  >important sense, that goes much further than the national concerns of
 >>  >some among the minority American contingent here. "Us" and "them",
 >>  >and you're not considering "them", but "them" is the majority here,
 >>  >non-Americans of every ilk. You think your election only concerns
 >>  >Americans?
 >>
 >> It's not my election. I'm not a citizen.
 >
 >For someone who claims to not be a citizen you sure do know a lot about
 >US Civil War history.

There are many people of a historical bent who see that conflict as one 
of 
the great changing points in history. I find it especially fascinating 
since having a Southern father and an Northern mother, I have a reasonable 
chance of understanding the weltgeist of the key actors.

One of the working definitions of the concept of "home" is that place 
where you understand the SOBs and why they are the way they are.

 >Oh, that's right, you're an "expat".  But, keep in mind, most expats
 >retain the citizenship to wherever they originate from.  So I guess
 >that'd make you a "former American".  Keep in mind also that as far as
 >the US Department Of State is concerned you're an American for life
 >unless you publicly and in writing renounce your US citizenship, and
 >send the appropriate paperwork to the appropriate places.

I'm quite aware of the proprietary dimension that comes with a US birth 
certificate. Many have noted that the Civil War didn't end slavery, it just 
leveled the playing field. Indeed, there are many of us who see the 
upcoming election as little more than a chance for the field hands to elect 
the next overseer. One holds the whip in his right hand, the other in his 
left, but it's hard to see that as a material difference.

 >You seem to be one of those expats who is both proud to be and American
 >and at the same time anti-american with the zeal of a convert.

I'm not proud to be an American. I had no say and take no credit for 
where 
my mother chose to give birth. I do respect and feel a sense of 
indebtedness for the opportunities which came with that accident of birth.

I believe that there's nothing more radical than a working model of a 
better way; what I am proud of is the work I've done to help create working 
models of viable solutions.

I'm also not anti-American. This country has done many good things, as 
well as many things that weren't. There was a party during The War when a 
woman asked Lincoln if he didn't agree that God was on their side. Lincoln 
reported replied something along the lines of, "Madam, the question is more 
one of whether in this conflict, are we on God's side?"

One of the ironies of life is that something good things get done for 
bad 
reasons, just as bad things can come with the best of intentions. At this 
point in time, America has a profound impact on the present, a weight that 
will shift as China and India come into the modern age. It's a constantly 
shifting pattern in which the only thing certain is that change will come.

 >You also seem to have a lot of deeply held anger.  Good luck dealing
 >with it.

I do my best, but it's not a matter of anger but rather one of fear 
since 
when patterns repeat themselves, it's a warning. For example, the 
dismissive treatment and personal attacks we're currently seeing directed 
at Bush are very similar to the way that the Democrats dismissed Lincoln as 
a rube and mocked him as "the great ape."  It was a grievous error then; I 
fear that it is a grievous error now.

 >Have a nice life.

Thanks. I am.

Walt




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Re: [biofuel] Depletion of Oil and Natural Gas

[alex]

Hakan Falk wrote:

>MM,
>
>I think that the EVs and hybrids based on biodiesel, are much better and 
>viable alternatives to any hydrogen vehicle.
>

Especially if diesel can work on DIY mustard/canola oil!
Alex




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Re: [biofuel] Depletion of Oil and Natural Gas

[Hakan Falk]

MM,

I think that the EVs and hybrids based on biodiesel, are much better and 
viable alternatives to any hydrogen vehicle. Anyway, if you drove hydrogen 
vehicle, it cannot be many kilometers or miles. Did they tell you the cost 
of the tank, I heard that it was around $20,000 with a range of around 100 
miles.

Hakan

At 22:16 02/03/2004, you wrote:
>Overall, I tend to agree with your thesis on your page, that damage is
>already done.
>
>On the issue of Oil Depletion, I've heard some conflicting accounts.
>But even in the unlikely event that the world were *still* awash in
>Oil, I do believe that we Americans could and will solve that
>"problem" by making even more gas guzzlers for even the poorest people
>in other Countries, so that we can all use up as much of the
>easy-to-get Oil as quickly as possible, so that then we can really see
>what the alternatives are.
>
>In any case, if Global Warming turns out to have any validity at all,
>then this concern warrants actions which parallel many of the actions
>needed to correct for energy-depletion.
>
>In my own personal house and affairs I am finding that there is so
>much room for improvement of energy conservation, and the form of use,
>that it will be many years before I'm close-to-satisfied on the
>matter.
>
>On Hydrogen:
>
>1.  One thing to say in favor of Hydrogen, that I haven't seen
>thoroughly discussed elsewhere: a household based on splitting
>hydrogen and recombining it might also combine this activity with
>water purification.
>
>2.  I've had brief test-drives of most of the H2 vehicles you see
>talked-about.  I have to tell you that the vehicles performed very
>well.  I'm not trying to tell you I know a lot about them in everday
>long-term-use conditions or that there aren't a lot of very valid
>objections to those vehicles.  I'm just passing on that they performed
>very much like regular cars in the brief drives I had.
>
>3.  I wonder if one couldn't build a home hydrogen splitting and
>recombining device such that the Hydrogen was allowed to float 50 or
>so feet upward before it was stored and recombined with Oxygen.  The
>"waste" H2O could be stored at that height, and the potential energy
>of its height could be gained when needed by allowing it to fall down
>a mini hydropower unit.  The waste water could then be collected in a
>pool for the water to be used or split, and the cycle re-started.  Ok,
>so this is a little further out there, but I'm just asking...
>
>MM
>
>
>
>On Tue, 02 Mar 2004 00:50:52 +0100, you wrote:
>
> >
> >MM,
> >
> >All info about Russia coal etc. is there if you follow the links and read
> >the information and data from me and others. 9/11 and aftermath is not
> >there. Yes, I belive that Bush tried to secure deliveries, to be able to
> >pursue the Iraq annexation. He lost the second largest supplier to US by
> >attacking Iraq. Maybe you remember the coup attempt in Venezuela and other
> >things, they all fit in the pattern you talk about. This is however a blip,
> >that is not noticeable in going through the depletion scenarios, but very
> >interesting anyway.
> >
> >Russia and former Soviet Union, have the same problem as Iraq. It is no
> >production capacity, because of the state of the equipment and
> >installations. The swing producers are the only ones that can sufficiently
> >adopt to different production volumes, the rest produce what they can.
> >
> >I do mention coal and it is also a section in the BP statistics about it.
> >It is however a lot to expand on and it will keep me occupied for a long
> >time, but it is all analysis and conclusions based on the data that is
> >already there. It is also quite interesting to follow how Bush and Cheney
> >have been leading everybody from the "clean hydrogen" to a dirty production
> >of it from coal. I have not assumed that they and their masters do not know
> >what they are doing. It is the ordinary people that do not know what is
> >going on.
> >
> >Hakan .
> >> >Fossil energy depletion and emission.
> >> ><http://energysavingnow.com/dep 
> letion/>http://energysavingnow.com/depletion/
> >> >
> >> >Thought about posting on the list, when this discussion came up.
> >> >
> >> >It is very hard to see a scenario where US do not have to "beg OPEC", 
> even
> >> >if they started with appropriate technologies yesterday. It is not a 
> matter
> >> >of "getting worse before it get better", it is only the option of getting
> >> >worse. The other US option is securing supply by annexation, which is 
> their
> >> >current line. Personally I doubt that US will pull that off, other 
> then if
> >> >that themselves abandoned democracy. Very difficult situation.




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Re: [biofuel] Venezuela threat to cut US oil

[Hakan Falk]

MM,

It is not the first time or the only source, that claims US to be behind 
the failed attempt in Venezuela. It was probably designed to secure 
deliveries of oil in the run up to the Iraqi invasion.

Chavez survived it only because some leading generals did not play ball 
with US and defended the Venezuelan democratic constitution instead. Quite 
unexpected, US is not used to this kind of betrayal from South American 
generals, shame on them. Here US is going to war to introduce democracy in 
Iraq and some stupid generals in Venezuela makes it difficult, because they 
want to defend their own democracy. Very egoistic behavior by them, they 
should understand that the Iraqi democracy and oil are much more important.

Yes, it is a risk that the Americans will try to "win the hearts and minds" 
of the Venezuelan people and by force liberate them. LOL

Hakan


At 22:00 02/03/2004, you wrote:
>What's a little chilling is the possibility that we in the U.S. quite
>possibly could have contemplated or committed some of these pressure
>tactics of which the Venezuelan head of state complains, and which we
>presently deny.
>
>If only we in the U.S. could spend just as much effort, as we do on
>manipulating world affairs, on fundamentally altering the nature of
>our energy use and vehicle fuel use.  We'd soon find that manipulating
>world affairs would seem far less necessary or adviseable.
>
>MM
>
> >Venezuela threat to cut US oil
> >By Nigel Wilson
> >March 02, 2004
> >BELEAGUERED Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez has sent a tremor across 
> the international oil market with threats of cutting oil exports to the US.
> >
> >Predictions the oil price could soar above $US40 a barrel if Venezuelan 
> oil stopped being shipped to the US come as the rapid resurgence in the 
> US economy is forcing a realisation high crude oil prices are here to 
> stay in the medium term, at least.
> >
> >The left-wing Venezuelan leader made the warning in a fiery speech to 
> supporters in which he accused US President George W. Bush's 
> administration of backing opposition attempts to oust him from the 
> presidency of the world's No.5 oil exporter.
> >
> >"Mr Bush must know that if he gets the mad idea of trying to blockade 
> Venezuela, or, even worse, of invading Venezuela, if that happened, the 
> people of the United States should know that not a drop of oil would 
> reach them from Venezuela, not a drop more," Mr Chavez told tens of 
> thousands of cheering supporters.
>
>etc here is the link for more:
>
>http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,5744,8837079%255E643,00.html




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Re: [biofuel] Depletion of Oil and Natural Gas

[murdoch]

Overall, I tend to agree with your thesis on your page, that damage is
already done.

On the issue of Oil Depletion, I've heard some conflicting accounts.
But even in the unlikely event that the world were *still* awash in
Oil, I do believe that we Americans could and will solve that
"problem" by making even more gas guzzlers for even the poorest people
in other Countries, so that we can all use up as much of the
easy-to-get Oil as quickly as possible, so that then we can really see
what the alternatives are.

In any case, if Global Warming turns out to have any validity at all,
then this concern warrants actions which parallel many of the actions
needed to correct for energy-depletion.

In my own personal house and affairs I am finding that there is so
much room for improvement of energy conservation, and the form of use,
that it will be many years before I'm close-to-satisfied on the
matter.

On Hydrogen:

1.  One thing to say in favor of Hydrogen, that I haven't seen
thoroughly discussed elsewhere: a household based on splitting
hydrogen and recombining it might also combine this activity with
water purification.

2.  I've had brief test-drives of most of the H2 vehicles you see
talked-about.  I have to tell you that the vehicles performed very
well.  I'm not trying to tell you I know a lot about them in everday
long-term-use conditions or that there aren't a lot of very valid
objections to those vehicles.  I'm just passing on that they performed
very much like regular cars in the brief drives I had.

3.  I wonder if one couldn't build a home hydrogen splitting and
recombining device such that the Hydrogen was allowed to float 50 or
so feet upward before it was stored and recombined with Oxygen.  The
"waste" H2O could be stored at that height, and the potential energy
of its height could be gained when needed by allowing it to fall down
a mini hydropower unit.  The waste water could then be collected in a
pool for the water to be used or split, and the cycle re-started.  Ok,
so this is a little further out there, but I'm just asking...

MM



On Tue, 02 Mar 2004 00:50:52 +0100, you wrote:

>
>MM,
>
>All info about Russia coal etc. is there if you follow the links and read 
>the information and data from me and others. 9/11 and aftermath is not 
>there. Yes, I belive that Bush tried to secure deliveries, to be able to 
>pursue the Iraq annexation. He lost the second largest supplier to US by 
>attacking Iraq. Maybe you remember the coup attempt in Venezuela and other 
>things, they all fit in the pattern you talk about. This is however a blip, 
>that is not noticeable in going through the depletion scenarios, but very 
>interesting anyway.
>
>Russia and former Soviet Union, have the same problem as Iraq. It is no 
>production capacity, because of the state of the equipment and 
>installations. The swing producers are the only ones that can sufficiently 
>adopt to different production volumes, the rest produce what they can.
>
>I do mention coal and it is also a section in the BP statistics about it. 
>It is however a lot to expand on and it will keep me occupied for a long 
>time, but it is all analysis and conclusions based on the data that is 
>already there. It is also quite interesting to follow how Bush and Cheney 
>have been leading everybody from the "clean hydrogen" to a dirty production 
>of it from coal. I have not assumed that they and their masters do not know 
>what they are doing. It is the ordinary people that do not know what is 
>going on.
>
>Hakan .
>> >Fossil energy depletion and emission.
>> >http://energysavingnow.com/depletion/
>> >
>> >Thought about posting on the list, when this discussion came up.
>> >
>> >It is very hard to see a scenario where US do not have to "beg OPEC", even
>> >if they started with appropriate technologies yesterday. It is not a matter
>> >of "getting worse before it get better", it is only the option of getting
>> >worse. The other US option is securing supply by annexation, which is their
>> >current line. Personally I doubt that US will pull that off, other then if
>> >that themselves abandoned democracy. Very difficult situation.



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[biofuel] San Francisco area- used homebrew reactors for sale

[girl mark]

I was planning on dismantling two of my old reactors and wash tanks 
because
I am now using bigger equipment, but I thought I'd offer them for sale
first before scrapping (and reusing) the parts.

   They're built from an upside down barrel, with a heating element, drain
and separate dip tube for removing clean biodiesel, and have a removable
lid with silicone gasket. They are flat-bottom, not conicals, but there is
a dip tube for doing separations 'off the top' of the glycerol so they work
about as well as a conical. They come with a wash tank that uses a
'standpipe' for separating water and biodiesel so that you can re-use your
last wash water for the next batch. They make about 42 gallons per batch
and use 42 gallons of oil and 8.5 gallons of methanol. The tanks are
heavily insulated with recycled bubblewrap. I want $350 for the system.

I don't have very good photos of these posted on the internet- but here's
a link to a photo of one of these two-barrel (reactor and wash tank) 
systems in it's
newer shinier days- http://www.journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_bubblewash2.html

People who have been to Jennifer Radtke's homebrew workshops have also seen
this exact design- it's simple and if you build it yourself, the parts for
the reactor are about $120 or so, plus another $30 for the wash tank
parts). I'm selling mine for more than that of course.

   If you prefer to build your own and save some cash, I've got 
instructions for a few different reactors at www.veggieavenger.com/media. 
Plans for and photos of the wash tank are at 
http://www.veggieavenger.com/avengerboard/viewtopic.php?t=333

   I'm teaching an equipment-building Intensive class in Santa Cruz on 
April 10
and 11 as well.

The Price:  I'm selling these used reactors/wash tanks along with some new 
'extras'
for $350  This gets you a reactor and a new standpipe wash tank, a pair of
carboys for methoxide mixing, and a polyethylene air bubbler tube (ie a 
bubblestone that won't dissolve) for bubblewashing. If you prefer 
mistwashing, I can make you a misting head instead.

   You will also need to buy a pump (can be a drill pump or a $25 barrel pump
from Harbor Freight), will need access to electricity and a water hose, 
some milk crates
or a stand for the tanks to sit on, as well as a scale (flea market) and
some simple titration gear ($10), and an aquarium air pump (about $10)),
and a filter ($20) ( I can help you find some of this stuff locally).

   Make up your own mind on whether this is worth the money or not- its' not
a 100% complete system but it's close..

mark



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




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[biofuel] Venezuela threat to cut US oil

[murdoch]

What's a little chilling is the possibility that we in the U.S. quite
possibly could have contemplated or committed some of these pressure
tactics of which the Venezuelan head of state complains, and which we
presently deny.

If only we in the U.S. could spend just as much effort, as we do on
manipulating world affairs, on fundamentally altering the nature of
our energy use and vehicle fuel use.  We'd soon find that manipulating
world affairs would seem far less necessary or adviseable.

MM

>Venezuela threat to cut US oil
>By Nigel Wilson
>March 02, 2004
>BELEAGUERED Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez has sent a tremor across the 
>international oil market with threats of cutting oil exports to the US.
>
>Predictions the oil price could soar above $US40 a barrel if Venezuelan oil 
>stopped being shipped to the US come as the rapid resurgence in the US economy 
>is forcing a realisation high crude oil prices are here to stay in the medium 
>term, at least. 
>
>The left-wing Venezuelan leader made the warning in a fiery speech to 
>supporters in which he accused US President George W. Bush's administration of 
>backing opposition attempts to oust him from the presidency of the world's 
>No.5 oil exporter. 
>
>"Mr Bush must know that if he gets the mad idea of trying to blockade 
>Venezuela, or, even worse, of invading Venezuela, if that happened, the people 
>of the United States should know that not a drop of oil would reach them from 
>Venezuela, not a drop more," Mr Chavez told tens of thousands of cheering 
>supporters. 

etc here is the link for more:

http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,5744,8837079%255E643,00.html




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[biofuel] Solar Power via the Moon

[Michael Redler]

Has anyone seen this?

I don't know if this is possible but it sounds like a pretty wild 
idea.

http://www.aip.org/tip/INPHFA/vol-8/iss-2/p12.pdf

Mike




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Re: [biofuel] Griffin Industries Biodiesel

[Appal Energy]

> Could that be like the monoglycerides I've seen some 
people on the list
> have trouble with?

Could very well be. They materialize as an emulsion in the presence of
water, the intensity of which is dependant upon their degree of presence.

"Dark brown" fuel the color of maple syrup indicates some rather well used
base feedstock, rich in FFAs. If the manufacturer is conducting only a
straight base reaction (which is pretty foolish when dealing with high FFA
product, INMSHO), there's too good of a chance that the last of the catalyst
was consumed as soap just prior to the reaction being complete.

If the reaction was almost total, while there's a high degree of probability
that most of the unconverted glycerides were left in what the operator may
have noticed as being an unusually high wash emulsion at the plant. But
there would also be a fair number that made it past the last wash and into
your tank.

A lot of people seem to think that all the unconverted glycerides will be in
the emulsion layer. Not so. You could take a fuel that was almost entirely
complete in its reaction and wash it even 10 times and always come up with
an emulsion that is higher than just the interphase layer that would be
present on washes of completed fuel.

If you wish to determine if the fuel problem is due to stearates - which I
highly doubt -  put a pint of fuel in the fridge and slowly cool or let it
set out overnight when the temp is expected to drop below 50*F. Part of the
contents should gel, even at that high of a temp.

(Wasn't it you who pointed to an article a year or so back, where the Air
Force (?) was doing super cooling of biodiesel to separate the different
carbon chain lengths and saturated/unsaturated esters to yield a biodiesel
with the lowest possible gel point?)

Still, that wouldn't cause the white exhaust plume. That's more indicative
of H20 in the fuel, leading to the belief that you've got a partially
incomplete fuel - hence the suggestion that you conduct a quick "frog in a
blender" wash test with a small sample.

Todd Swearingen

- Original Message - 
From: "Alan Petrillo" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Tuesday, March 02, 2004 2:04 AM
Subject: Re: [biofuel] Griffin Industries Biodiesel


> Appal Energy wrote:
>
> > Allan,
> >
> > Take a fuel sample, match it with equal parts water and agitate
vigorously.
> >
> > I've seen your symptoms before when running fuel laden with incompletely
> > converted glycerides. They are hydrophylic and would suck up any water
in
> > the bottom of the tank.
>
> Could that be like the monoglycerides I've seen some people on the list
> have trouble with?
>
> > Did you fill up at a pump or did you get a glance at the fuel prior to
> > putting it in your tank?
>
> Both.  I usually fill up at the pump and get a couple of 5 gallon
> carboys full as well.  The stuff is kind of dark brown, about the color
> of maple syrup, but it doesn't appear to be cloudy.
>
> > It's as good a bet as any that it was already cloudy and water laden.
Your
> > sample may be exactly that when you pull it out of the tank.
>
> I've changed fuel filters, and the problem has remained the same.
>
>
> AP
>
>
>
> Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
> http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
>
> Biofuels list archives:
> http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
>
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>
>
>
>
>
>



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Re: [biofuel] Weapons of Mass Deception

[Alan Petrillo]

Walt Patrick wrote:
>  >I think you're falling into your own trap of seeing things according
>  >to a partisan agenda, but in a different, much broader, and much more
>  >important sense, that goes much further than the national concerns of
>  >some among the minority American contingent here. "Us" and "them",
>  >and you're not considering "them", but "them" is the majority here,
>  >non-Americans of every ilk. You think your election only concerns
>  >Americans?
> 
>   It's not my election. I'm not a citizen.

For someone who claims to not be a citizen you sure do know a lot about 
US Civil War history.

Oh, that's right, you're an "expat".  But, keep in mind, most expats 
retain the citizenship to wherever they originate from.  So I guess 
that'd make you a "former American".  Keep in mind also that as far as 
the US Department Of State is concerned you're an American for life 
unless you publicly and in writing renounce your US citizenship, and 
send the appropriate paperwork to the appropriate places.

You seem to be one of those expats who is both proud to be and American 
and at the same time anti-american with the zeal of a convert.

You also seem to have a lot of deeply held anger.  Good luck dealing 
with it.

Have a nice life.


AP



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Re: [biofuel] List Trailer Question

[Alan Petrillo]

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

> Is it against the law to TRIM THE TRAILERS off of messages posted to
> this list, or is it important to have 5 trailers on each message?
> They appear to be a waste of bandwidth and email box space.

Hear, hear!

(trailers trimmed!}


AP



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Re: [biofuel] floating draw-off

[Pieter Koole]

I use a lump of wood and it works pretty well.

Met vriendelijke groeten,
Pieter Koole
Netherlands

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- Original Message -
From: "Alan Petrillo" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Tuesday, March 02, 2004 8:39 AM
Subject: Re: [biofuel] floating draw-off


> [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>
> > I have built several floating draw offs, and I'm not sure which is best.
For
> > the float, one can use polyethylene foam, not styrofoam!, or a sealed
air
> > container, such as a PVC pipe with capped ends. Use a good weight on the
float to
> > keep it immersed in the liquid. For the hose, I recommend one of those
> > pre-coiled poly garden hoses, so it follows the fluctuating level
without being
> > pulled off to the side. I also use a guide rod down through the coil to
keep things
> > on the level. If you can figure a flexible joint that can stand a
suction,
> > perhaps you could post it here. I can't find one that is flexible
enough.
>
> I haven't used any such thing for BD, but a floating pickup is often
> used for jet fuel in aviation fuel farms.  The trick is to have the
> pickup tube extend a bit below the float.  That way as the float changes
> aspect to the surface of the fuel the pickup doesn't suck air.  The
> aviation setups usually have stops so that the pickup leaves the last 8
> inches or so in the tank.  I never had to worry about it, though, as my
> fuel farm never had any water in it.
>
> For the appropriate flexible joint, I suppose you could check with your
> local tank and lift supplier.
>
>
> AP
>
>
>
>
> Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
> http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
>
> Biofuels list archives:
> http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
>
> Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address.
> To unsubscribe, send an email to:
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>



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Re: [biofuel] A question about lignine

[Keith Addison]

Dag Pieter

>Great !
>Thanks a lot.
>You say it is all organic material. Doesn't the sulfuric acid do any harm,
>or is that all used by breaking down the cellulose ?

It seems so, from what Fred said, but at any rate, even if not, it 
will certainly be broken down safely in a properly made hot compost 
pile (thermophilic, aerobic). You wouldn't try to compost the "waste" 
lignin by itself, it should be mixed in thoroughly with all the other 
material used in making compost normally. (As with "disposing" of the 
biodiesel glycerine by-product this way.)

>You asked : Why not ?
>Well, for the same reason as why we don't find any information about
>producing nuclear power or other poluting methods on your site. Aren't we
>more or less idealists ?

Well, I dunno if we're idealists, quite, or at all. We're development 
workers, and we see environment issues as an integral part of that. 
As did the so-called "Earth Summit", Rio 1992 - it's proper name was 
the United Nations Conference on Environment and Development (UNCED), 
at long last putting the two under the same hat where they belong, 
until a bunch of silly greenies went and changed it to "Earth 
Summit", which de-emphasises the "people" bit.

Anyway, I don't think the "Fuel from sawdust" method is polluting, 
all the chemicals used and all possible by-products are safely 
biodegradeable, all well-known to and easily handled by the 
biosphere, unlike concentrated nuclear wastes, POPs and so on.

Best wishes

Keith


>Met vriendelijke groeten,
>Pieter Koole
>
>
>- Original Message -
>From: "Keith Addison" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>To: 
>Sent: Saturday, February 28, 2004 2:56 PM
>Subject: Re: [biofuel] A question about lignine
>
>
> > >Thanks Ken,
> > >I hope I don't insult anybody, but as far as I remember I found the way
>to
> > >make ethanol out of sawdust on journeytoforever.
> >
> > Fuel From Sawdust
> > http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel_library.html#sawdust
> >
> > >If the process produces poison material, why would it be on this site ?
> >
> > Why not?
> >
> > Compost it, Pieter. It's all organic stuff, it'll break down
> > harmlessly in a properly made hot compost pile.
> >
> > http://journeytoforever.org/compost.html
> > Composting: Journey to Forever
> >
> > Best
> >
> > Keith
> >
> >
> > >Met vriendelijke groeten,
> > >Pieter Koole
> > >
> > >
> > >- Original Message -
> > >From: "Ken Provost" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > >To: 
> > >Sent: Saturday, February 28, 2004 4:03 AM
> > >Subject: Re: [biofuel] A question about lignine
> > >
> > >
> > > > on 2/27/04 10:48 AM, Pieter Koole at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > Hi all,
> > > > > I am making ethanol on a very very small
> > > > > scale ( experimenting a bit ) from
> > > > > newspapers etc.
> > > > > What is the best thing to do with the
> > > > > black stuff ( lignine isn't it ? ). Is
> > > > > it poison ? Can I use it somehow?
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > In general, any organic mixture that's BLACK
> > > > is toxic, probly carcinogenic. Blackness is
> > > > caused by multiple aromatic fused rings --
> > > > polycyclic aromatic hydrocarbons, of which
> > > > graphite is the extreme version. Do a Google
> > > > search on polycyclic aromatic hydrocarbons.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > Is there a way to re-use the sulphuric
> > > > > acid (98%)
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > I don't think so
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > Does anyone know whether
> > > > > alcohol can be dried by
> > > > > electrolysis ?
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > I've never heard of it -- doesn't mean it's
> > > > not possible somehow, but I doubt it  -K
 



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Re: [biofuel] floating draw-off

[Alan Petrillo]

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

> I have built several floating draw offs, and I'm not sure which is best. For 
> the float, one can use polyethylene foam, not styrofoam!, or a sealed air 
> container, such as a PVC pipe with capped ends. Use a good weight on the 
> float to 
> keep it immersed in the liquid. For the hose, I recommend one of those 
> pre-coiled poly garden hoses, so it follows the fluctuating level without 
> being 
> pulled off to the side. I also use a guide rod down through the coil to keep 
> things 
> on the level. If you can figure a flexible joint that can stand a suction, 
> perhaps you could post it here. I can't find one that is flexible enough.

I haven't used any such thing for BD, but a floating pickup is often 
used for jet fuel in aviation fuel farms.  The trick is to have the 
pickup tube extend a bit below the float.  That way as the float changes 
aspect to the surface of the fuel the pickup doesn't suck air.  The 
aviation setups usually have stops so that the pickup leaves the last 8 
inches or so in the tank.  I never had to worry about it, though, as my 
fuel farm never had any water in it.

For the appropriate flexible joint, I suppose you could check with your 
local tank and lift supplier.


AP



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Re: [biofuel] Re: Griffin Industries Biodiesel

[Alan Petrillo]

skillshare wrote:

> Griffin's fuel is unusable as B100 in most climates in the winter, at 
> least the samples of it that I've seen so far. It forms crystals at 
> 45F, which are big enough to block onboard fuel filters. Even in the 
> San Francisco Bay Area, a very mild climate, it's too gel-prone for 
> our winters.
> 
> It also resists anti-gel additives. If you had some sort of fuel 
> heater you'd be fine, but it's tough stuff.
> Localy we've had peopel try and blend it with soy biodiesel at 
> something like a 1/4 griffin to 3/4 soy ratio, which was still 
> somewhat iffy as Bay Area winter fuel.
> 
> It's been independently tested to be great ASTM quality fuel though- 
> it's just not good wintertime B100.

Hmm...

That shouldn't really be a problem here in central Florida, but I 
suppose it is possible.  We've had some nights go down into the 40's, 
but most of the time we've been warmer than that.  [checks desktop 
widget] Right now it's 68F at 2:15 a.m..


AP



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Re: [biofuel] Griffin Industries Biodiesel

[Alan Petrillo]

Dave Williams wrote:

> Alan Petrillo wrote:
> 
> 
>>One of my trucks is sick, possibly fuel related, and both of them blow 
>>big white clouds on startup, and have experienced hard starting since I 
>>got my last batch of B100.
> 
> 
>   Those are typical symptoms of a blown head gasket.

Yes, but those are also typical symptoms of diesels that are unhappy 
with their fuel.  They're also sypmtoms of diesels that need their 
injectors overhauled and glow plugs replaced.

Significantly, neither one of them is showing any signs of fuel and oil 
crossing paths, or any of the other signs of a blown head gasket.

Unfortunately, I haven't had the chance to run compressions on either 
engine.

And to have two engines show the same behavior at the same time would 
tend to indicate that the problem is with the fuel.


AP




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Re: [biofuel] Griffin Industries Biodiesel

[Alan Petrillo]

Appal Energy wrote:

> Allan,
> 
> Take a fuel sample, match it with equal parts water and agitate vigorously.
> 
> I've seen your symptoms before when running fuel laden with incompletely
> converted glycerides. They are hydrophylic and would suck up any water in
> the bottom of the tank.

Could that be like the monoglycerides I've seen some people on the list 
have trouble with?

> Did you fill up at a pump or did you get a glance at the fuel prior to
> putting it in your tank?

Both.  I usually fill up at the pump and get a couple of 5 gallon 
carboys full as well.  The stuff is kind of dark brown, about the color 
of maple syrup, but it doesn't appear to be cloudy.

> It's as good a bet as any that it was already cloudy and water laden. Your
> sample may be exactly that when you pull it out of the tank.

I've changed fuel filters, and the problem has remained the same.


AP



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Re: [biofuel] correction Re: Griffin Industries Biodiesel

[Alan Petrillo]

skillshare wrote:

> It was not Griffin that had the bad batch, it as another supplier 
> (Imperian Western Products). Griffin fuel was fine as far as meeting 
> specifications, it happens to also have a high gel point. Gel point 
> is not on the ASTM specs as a pass-fail number.
> 
> the gel point thing is just a characteristic of the biodiesel, and it 
> does not indicate that that fuel is off-spec or a bad batch- it 
> indicates that it was high in saturated fats such as animal fat.

That figures.  The stuff I get is made from yellow grease, so it is 
likely that it does have high numbers of animal fats.


AP



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Re: [biofuel] BD in PA

[Appal Energy]

A new contract in what?

- Original Message - 
From: "david" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Monday, March 01, 2004 2:04 PM
Subject: [biofuel] BD in PA


> I'm starting a new contract in PA (north of Phila.) and would be 
> interested in seeing a BD operation in progress.  is anyone in the 
> area?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
> http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
> 
> Biofuels list archives:
> http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
> 
> Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address.
> To unsubscribe, send an email to:
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
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> 
> 
> 
>  
> 
> 


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Re: [biofuel] explosion proof motors

[Appal Energy]

Short of explosion "proof," there are TEFC (totally 
enclosed, fan cooled)
motors.

- Original Message - 
From: "j_schearer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Monday, March 01, 2004 4:44 PM
Subject: [biofuel] explosion proof motors


> My question for members is concerning the motor for the mixing tank.
> I managed to find an older oil furnace motor and got it working
> again.  A friend of mine gave me a stainless spinner shaft for it and
> it seems like it will work well.  I have not tried it yet though.
> Would this be ok to use while mixing the WVO and the sodium methoxide
> without worries about the motor not being an explosion proof model?
> I have looked into the explosion proof motors and they are very
> costly.  However, being safety conscious, I can buy one if this will
> be a safety hazard.  Advice?
>
>
>
>
> Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
> http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
>
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> http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
>
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>
>
>
>
>
>



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[biofuel] explosion proof motors

[j_schearer]

My question for members is concerning the motor for the 
mixing tank.  
I managed to find an older oil furnace motor and got it working 
again.  A friend of mine gave me a stainless spinner shaft for it and 
it seems like it will work well.  I have not tried it yet though.  
Would this be ok to use while mixing the WVO and the sodium methoxide 
without worries about the motor not being an explosion proof model?  
I have looked into the explosion proof motors and they are very 
costly.  However, being safety conscious, I can buy one if this will 
be a safety hazard.  Advice?




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[biofuel] BD in PA

[david]

I'm starting a new contract in PA (north of Phila.) and 
would be 
interested in seeing a BD operation in progress.  is anyone in the 
area?






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Re: [biofuel] Tanker Carrying 3.5 Million Gallons of Ethanol Sinks

[Levon Barker]

On Mon, 2004-03-01 at 14:05, murdoch wrote:
> When the Valdez and other Oil Spills have occurred, I had to wonder
> why they couldn't burn much of the Oil off the surface, even if they
> had to temporarily evacuate some towns because of smoke.  In this
> case, also, I wonder if they could have burned some of this fuel off,
> though I guess not immediately if they were worried about possible
> survivors floating in the wreckage.  Also, if the ethanol dissipated
> quickly, maybe this would have made a burn harder, even if the
> faster-than-oil-dissipation would not prevent a kill zone, as you say.
> 
> You'll probably tell me there's plenty wrong or un-doable, with this
> idea of burning off the fuel, but there sure seems to be plenty wrong
> with having it wash up on beaches, kill fish and foul and other
> wildlife, hurt industries, cost billions or dozens of billions, and
> cost jobs, etc.

Actually I saw something on TV about experimenting with napalm to burn
oil from oil spills.

Levon.





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Re: [biofuel] Energy bill - was Re: U.S. Won't 'Beg OPEC,' Focus on Technology -Abraham

[murdoch]

On Tue, 2 Mar 2004 01:47:40 +0900, you wrote:

>Hi MM
>
>>My vote is for no energy bill, if my only choice is one that he and
>>his team have sanctioned, as I understand the ones they have put
>>forward.
>
>Then this might be relevant - from MoveOn.org, via another list, 
>aimed at Washington, but I guess people know who their senators are.
>
>Best
>
>Keith

Yes.  My Senators are McCain and Kyl (I had to look up the latter) now
that I have recently moved to Arizona.  McCain I have some regard for,
on the balance, as a maverick who is willing to take a stand if he
thinks it's right, though I often disagree with him.  

Of note for us here in this group is that he has worked with Kerry in
the past on CAFE-reform related legislation (i.e.: Kerry being a
Democrat and McCain being a Republican so that a bill is sponsored
or co-authored by a Senator from either side) and on balance is a bit
less anti-environmental and less anti-conservation than the majority
of Republicans I've heard.

For those in the U.S. who might have lost track (as I had), one can
research to verify one's two Senators, and one House Representative,
by going here:

http://www.senate.gov/

and here:

http://www.house.gov/


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