Re: [Biofuel] Hybrid Diesel

[Keith Addison]

Hello Ted


I'm interested in organizing a coalition around hybrid
electric/biodiesel vehicles.


Have you visited Darryl McMahon's website, Ecogenics?
http://www.econogics.com/


I read that such products were
manufactured early in the hybrid process, but later scrapped.


Do you mean PNGV? The Partnership for a New Generation of Vehicles 
project started by Al Gore. In collaboration with government the Big 
Three in Detroit each developed diesel-electric hybrids with fuel 
consumption of about 80mpg and were getting costs down to near 
marketability when the project was scrapped by the Bush 
administration in favour of the "Freedom Car". The technology, paid 
for with taxpayers' dollars, got stashed away in the vaults where 
they keep useful technology that might not be in their interests. 
Sorry to be cynical about it, but check these out:


Driving In Circles
http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/msg10943.html

Fool Cells - How Detroit Plays Americans For A Bunch Of Suckers
http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/msg20667.html

See also the Mokhiber-Weissman review of Jack Doyle's book, "Taken 
for a Ride: Detroit's Big Three and the Politics of Pollution":

http://lists.essential.org/pipermail/corp-focus/2000/31.html

See PNGV about halfway down:
http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_future.html
Do diesels have a future?

There's this, from a post in one of those threads:


During the Clinton Administration, all the major U.S.
auto manufacturers developed diesel-electric hybrid
concept vehicles, in line with the "Partnership for a
New Generation of Vehicle."  Some were more realistic
than others, but all had high mileages, and all were
unveiled 1998-2001.  Interesting that as soon as our
current President took office, this initiative left
the headlines.


But there's also this, from Doyle:

Bush's proposal to provide for clean cars -- which is laudable on 
its face -- is but the latest in a long line of Detroit-White House 
"partnerships" dating to the Nixon-era that only provide diversion 
and political cover, not actual clean cars.


During the annual parade of auto shows in 2002, General Motors, a 
company which has lost 25 points of market share since the '50s, 
rolled out a futuristic-looking automotive underbody "skateboard" 
called Autonomy. Someday -- GM didn't say exactly when -- Autonomy 
would be crammed full of hydrogen-powered fuel cells and computers, 
and smog would end. A few days after GM's show, U.S. Energy 
Secretary of Energy, Spencer Abraham, and Sen. Carl Levin (D-Mich.), 
were on hand with GM and DaimlerChrysler to announce the death of 
one federal "supercar" program and the creation of another. Being 
terminated was a Clinton-era program -- a 10-year joint venture with 
Detroit known as the "Partnership for a New Generation of Vehicles" 
(PNGV) that was supposed to produce an 80 mpg family car. In its 
place, the Bush administration substituted a program focused not on 
fuel-efficiency but on hydrogen fuel-cell technology, "Freedom Car." 
However, most of these ventures go nowhere, as Clinton's "supercar" 
program shows.


At its September 1993 White House unveiling, Bill Clinton compared 
the PNGV to the Apollo project that put a man on the moon. GM's CEO 
at the time, Jack Smith, said the efficiency gains to come from the 
new venture would amount to "nothing less than a major, even 
radical, breakthrough." A whole new class of car would follow, he 
assured his listeners. Sold to Congress as a way to make the Big 
Three competitive with the Japanese, PNGV became the perfect 
political tool to keep Congress from moving to improve fuel economy, 
to tout as the industry's global warming fighter, and to help 
undermine California's electric vehicle program.


Meanwhile, as Detroit and Washington became comfortable in their 
new, 10-year research venture, the Japanese were making real 
improvements...


-- From: Fool Cells - How Detroit Plays Americans For A Bunch Of Suckers

There's also this:

PNGV funds were available only to American companies. Recipients 
agreed to unveil a concept car by 2000, a preproduction prototype by 
2004 and be in full production by 2010. All three, Ford, GM and 
DaimlerChrysler introduced concept cars in early 2000. And there 
development stopped. Why? Because the American car companies refused 
to commercialize a car they would initially lose money on, even if 
the losses would be temporary.


Daimler/Chrysler, for example, announced in 2000 that it would not 
commercialize its diesel hybrid (ESX3) because it cost $7,500 more 
to make than their comparable gasoline powered car, a Dodge 
Intrepid. As late as April 2002 General Motors' CEO and President G. 
Richard Wagoner Jr. told Business Week, "How will the economics of 
hybrids ever match that of the internal combustion engine? We can't 
afford to subsidize them."


-- From: A Tale of Two Countries, by David Morris
http://www.alternet.org/story.html?StoryI

Re: [Biofuel] VW Diesel

[Keith Addison]

Hi Joe


Ok Keith;

Thanks for the welcome.


You're welcome. :-)


Sorry if I stepped on anyone's toes,


Not at all.

as it wasn't my intent but around here (Ontario, Canada) it seems 
just about everybody has the mentality I described.


Not only around there, sad to say, it's widespread. But maybe it's 
less widespread than it was a few years back. Hope springs eternal.


They just don't seem to get it that the future is gonna look a 
little different.


Don't seem to and I suppose don't want to either, nothing like a 
comfortable addiction, and there's plenty of encouragement for it 
from the mainstream media and all around, the comfortable assumptions 
go unchallenged, pretty much. Sometimes (often?) they see the facts 
as an attack and attack you back. Shoot the messenger.


BTW I'm glad to be on this list.  Making biodiesel is quite new to 
me and I'm sure I can benefit from all the experience gathered here.


I hope so.

Best wishes

Keith



Joe

Keith Addison wrote:


Hello Joe


Greetz to all on the list;

I have joined recently but have not posted till now.
This thread just touched on a topic which has been on my mind. 
The question of multifuels and which is the best etc. There seems 
to be an underlying assumption that I keep coming up against as I 
interact with local people and tell them about my biodiesel 
efforts and the whole green oil vs black oil issue.  Everyone 
including some on this list it seems, (don't be offended if you 
are not one of them)(but if you are one feel free to 1. be 
offended, 2. go do some soul searching) talks as if they just 
assume that this is a case of " Oh I can put this in my tank 
instead of that and continue on as ever" To me this is an example 
of our collective infantile world view that we can consume energy 
like pigs at the trough.  I wonder how many people, and not just 
the ones who are so wired into 'the matrix' that they just don't 
even see the important issues, but even amongst the so called 
environmentally conscious types that can be found here and there, 
how many believe that it is a case of just finding an alternative 
energy source so we can continue on the way we have been?  Does 
anyone believe that 80 to 100 billion extra barrels of vegetable 
oil can be produced every day to replace the petroleum industry? 
Whether future multifuel vehicles will run on vegetable oil or 
ethanol or liquified genius to me is a moot point.  The truth is 
energy always has a price.  I am reminded that the first R of the 
famous three R's is REDUCE.  Using french fry oil again as fuel is 
only an example of recycling which is the third and least valuable 
of the three!  There is certainly not enough WVO to go around if 
everyone were to jump on the bandwagon anyways. We are fortunate 
to be the early ones who are getting a kind of free ride, only 
because the masses are still passing the oil dumpster by on thier 
way to the petroleum store to give money to people who are content 
to poison them for thier support.  I think there should be a lot 
more effort in the PR department challenging people to think 
differently.  To live close to thier work.  To walk and ride thier 
bicycles. This will improve the health and reduce the heathcare 
burden anyways. Buy stuff that is locally produced and think 
carefully about what you support and how you vote with your 
dollars. It is inevitable that we restructure society when the 
truth about the unsustainability of our lifestyle is in our faces 
and can no longer be denied in our daily routines.  Those who have 
already begun to restructure thier own lives will be ahead of the 
game when the time comes but why wait? Start todaypick up the 
phone and call...a golden future awaits..


Just my two cents.



A good two cents' worth.

However, you'd probably have been a lot more cheery about had you 
spent some time in the list archives. That's pretty much the 
message the list has been pushing for the last five years. It's 
almost a mantra by now: "Merely replacing fossil fuels is not the 
answer. A rational and sustainable energy future requires great 
reductions in energy use (currently mostly waste), great 
improvements in energy use efficiency, and, most important, 
decentralisation of supply to the small-scale or farm-scale 
local-economy level, along with the use of all ready-to-use 
renewable energy technologies in combination as the local 
circumstances require."


More than that, there's a great deal of attention paid to how the 
feedstock is produced. If you just swap fuels instead of changing 
the entire disaster you'll end up with wall-to-wall industrialized 
monocrops of GMO soy and canola. Big Biofuels may not turn out to 
be much better than Big Oil. Silly thing about it is that 
industrialized monocropping of biofuels crops would be (is) just as 
fossil-fuel-dependent as industrialized monocropping of anything 
else is. What's the use of finding a cure for cancer if it gives 
you a heart attack? S

Re: [Biofuel] VW Diesel

[Joe Street]

Ok Keith;

Thanks for the welcome.  Sorry if I stepped on anyone's toes, as it 
wasn't my intent but around here (Ontario, Canada) it seems just about 
everybody has the mentality I described.  They just don't seem to get it 
that the future is gonna look a little different.
BTW I'm glad to be on this list.  Making biodiesel is quite new to me 
and I'm sure I can benefit from all the experience gathered here.


Joe

Keith Addison wrote:


Hello Joe


Greetz to all on the list;

I have joined recently but have not posted till now.
This thread just touched on a topic which has been on my mind.  The 
question of multifuels and which is the best etc. There seems to be 
an underlying assumption that I keep coming up against as I interact 
with local people and tell them about my biodiesel efforts and the 
whole green oil vs black oil issue.  Everyone including some on this 
list it seems, (don't be offended if you are not one of them)(but if 
you are one feel free to 1. be offended, 2. go do some soul 
searching) talks as if they just assume that this is a case of " Oh I 
can put this in my tank instead of that and continue on as ever" To 
me this is an example of our collective infantile world view that we 
can consume energy like pigs at the trough.  I wonder how many 
people, and not just the ones who are so wired into 'the matrix' that 
they just don't even see the important issues, but even amongst the 
so called environmentally conscious types that can be found here and 
there, how many believe that it is a case of just finding an 
alternative energy source so we can continue on the way we have 
been?  Does anyone believe that 80 to 100 billion extra barrels of 
vegetable oil can be produced every day to replace the petroleum 
industry?  Whether future multifuel vehicles will run on vegetable 
oil or ethanol or liquified genius to me is a moot point.  The truth 
is energy always has a price.  I am reminded that the first R of the 
famous three R's is REDUCE.  Using french fry oil again as fuel is 
only an example of recycling which is the third and least valuable of 
the three!  There is certainly not enough WVO to go around if 
everyone were to jump on the bandwagon anyways. We are fortunate to 
be the early ones who are getting a kind of free ride, only because 
the masses are still passing the oil dumpster by on thier way to the 
petroleum store to give money to people who are content to poison 
them for thier support.  I think there should be a lot more effort in 
the PR department challenging people to think differently.  To live 
close to thier work.  To walk and ride thier bicycles. This will 
improve the health and reduce the heathcare burden anyways. Buy stuff 
that is locally produced and think carefully about what you support 
and how you vote with your dollars. It is inevitable that we 
restructure society when the truth about the unsustainability of our 
lifestyle is in our faces and can no longer be denied in our daily 
routines.  Those who have already begun to restructure thier own 
lives will be ahead of the game when the time comes but why wait? 
Start todaypick up the phone and call...a golden future awaits..


Just my two cents.



A good two cents' worth.

However, you'd probably have been a lot more cheery about had you 
spent some time in the list archives. That's pretty much the message 
the list has been pushing for the last five years. It's almost a 
mantra by now: "Merely replacing fossil fuels is not the answer. A 
rational and sustainable energy future requires great reductions in 
energy use (currently mostly waste), great improvements in energy use 
efficiency, and, most important, decentralisation of supply to the 
small-scale or farm-scale local-economy level, along with the use of 
all ready-to-use renewable energy technologies in combination as the 
local circumstances require."


More than that, there's a great deal of attention paid to how the 
feedstock is produced. If you just swap fuels instead of changing the 
entire disaster you'll end up with wall-to-wall industrialized 
monocrops of GMO soy and canola. Big Biofuels may not turn out to be 
much better than Big Oil. Silly thing about it is that industrialized 
monocropping of biofuels crops would be (is) just as 
fossil-fuel-dependent as industrialized monocropping of anything else 
is. What's the use of finding a cure for cancer if it gives you a 
heart attack? So there's a focus here on sustainable crop production.


You might find these previous posts interesting reading:
http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/msg18745.html
Re: Biofuels hold key to future of British farming

http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/msg48264.html
How much fuel can we grow?

I think there should be a lot more effort in the PR department 
challenging people to think differently.



Um, PR is the enemy - there's a great deal about that in the archives 
too, and how to counter it. But your 

[Biofuel] Hybrid Diesel

[Edward W. De Barbieri]

I'm interested in organizing a coalition around hybrid
electric/biodiesel vehicles.  I read that such products were
manufactured early in the hybrid process, but later scrapped.

My thinking is that excluding Dino Fuel entirely is the way to go,
without the difficutly of producing hydrogen fuel cells as well.

1: What exists already in this area?
2: Is anyone in the United States interested in collaborating on this project?

Ted De Barbieri

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Re: [Biofuel] vikings, turks and romans

[Hakan Falk]

Chris,

You found two sites, that link the Vikings to the Middle East, if you 
followed my link to the Swedish Old Nordic Research Institution's paper, 
even if you do not read Swedish. The Viking and Turkish runic writing used 
the nabateic language from the area of Southern Israel - Jordanien etc. I 
lost the link to the site you found and it would be nice if you can give it 
to me. In the Viking tales, Miklagård (Constantinople)  is referred to as 
the "the big city" and  as a sort of home city or origin. The Vikings also 
had a quite unique way getting there, by the Russian rivers, which is a bit 
illogical, if their origin was European. The Viking findings and tales, 
goes back to around 200 AD and their conquering and trading period 
westwards was between 800 to 1100 AD.


The only serious and failed attempt to conquer Constantinople by the 
Swedes, that I can remember from the Swedish history, was by a Swedish King 
and around 600 years after the Vikings era ended. Maybe you can refresh my 
memory on that point.


It is interesting and a lot of the Swedish Viking history has been 
rewritten and reevaluated, since I first learned it in school more than 50 
years ago. If I think about what I read and learned then, it corresponds 
very much with your and Bob's Viking history.


It is funny, because we decided to not go to our summer house in Sweden 
this year, were we normally spending July, from my childhood and onwards. 
My wife started to rent luxury villas and apartments for friends during the 
summer and I made a web site for it http://villaslujo.com/ a year ago. This 
expanded so much and so fast, that we decided to stay at home this year. 
Otherwise I have a childhood friend at the summer place, who is professor 
in Nordic History at Stockholm University, but what I can remember I have 
never really discussed detailed history with him. He could have straighten 
me out on this matters, if I am too wrong.


Hakan


At 02:30 AM 6/28/2005, you wrote:

hi, hakan.

there is absolutely no question that the vikings traded with byzantium. 
there was one viking group which also tried to conquer it.  having failed 
at this, they opted to formally establish friendly trade and diplomatic 
relations, arranging dynastic marriages (which served as the foundation 
for the later russian empire's presumption to carrying on the legacy of 
the ceasars).  others saw fit to serve the byzantine emperor:  the 
varingian guard to which bob and i have both referred previously.


their trading (and conquering) activities were even more far flung than 
byzantium, though.  and it is generally accepted that for several hundred 
years they were essentially *the* vessel for the transfer of huge amounts 
of wealth from asia minor; the middle east; and asia to europe.


i did some looking and found a single site which links the viking runic 
alphabet with the turk script.  the author's assertion is that the 
symbols, at least insofar as their phonetic representation, are 
identical.  he went so far as to transcribe viking runic writings to the 
turk runes, yielding an effective translation.  it must be emphasized that 
this was a strictly phonetic exercise.  he did not use the turk language.



-Original Message-
From: Hakan Falk <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Sent: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 03:21:31 +0200
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] vikings, turks and romans

Chris,

Look at my mail to Bob.

The Vikings had a regular and well established trading relationship
with Miklagård, which was Constantinople. This is proven in many
ways, by written "sagas" and also by history from that part. When
they visited Constantinople, it was special rules for them and they
were not allowed to be a larger group or to have arms, which also
is documented.

All the links are there, it is possible and Swedish historians have
started to accept the links and their probability. They do not regard
it as speculative. It is not much more that I can say off or on line,
but if you have substantial evidence that the theory is wrong, the
we can continue off line.

Hakan

At 02:16 AM 6/27/2005, you wrote:
>hakan,
>
>i wasn't disputing everything you suggest.
>
>what i do have trouble with, and correct me if i'm misinterpreting you, is
>the notion that the vikings could somehow be descended both from the roman
>legions and the turks. could there have been contact between the romans and
>scandinavia? possibly a trade relationship? certainly, but i find this
>questionable because the vikings would have had little if anything 
to >offer that the
>romans weren't already getting from the peoples of britania, and western 
and
>central europe. it seems more likely that scandinavian goods would 
have >found
>their way to the romans indirectly, via trade with the germanic peoples 
of >central

>europe.
>
>but even if we suppose that there was direct trade contact, i highly 
doubt it

>could have had sufficient regularity or depth to be of significant
>cult

[Biofuel] Acid Heterogeneous Catalyst and FFA "esterification"

[francisco j burgos]

Dear Mr. Addison:
Lets suppose that an oil/fat with a high content of Free Fatty Acids ( > 
15%) is available, is it true that  FFA present in it can be "esterifyed" 
using an acid (H2SO4) as catalyst in conjunction with the chosen alcohol, 
plus heat, stirring, etc...?
Assuming that "esterification" of FFA is achieved...  Under such treatment I 
wonder what may happen to the oil/fat that is also present, could you please 
elaborate on it?.

Thanks in advance,
Francisco



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Re: [Biofuel] vikings, turks and romans

[capt3d]

hi, hakan.
 
there is absolutely no question that the vikings traded with byzantium. there was one viking group which also tried to conquer it.  having failed at this, they opted to formally establish friendly trade and diplomatic relations, arranging dynastic marriages (which served as the foundation for the later russian empire's presumption to carrying on the legacy of the ceasars).  others saw fit to serve the byzantine emperor:  the varingian guard to which bob and i have both referred previously.
 
their trading (and conquering) activities were even more far flung than byzantium, though.  and it is generally accepted that for several hundred years they were essentially *the* vessel for the transfer of huge amounts of wealth from asia minor; the middle east; and asia to europe.
 
i did some looking and found a single site which links the viking runic alphabet with the turk script.  the author's assertion is that the symbols, at least insofar as their phonetic representation, are identical.  he went so far as to transcribe viking runic writings to the turk runes, yielding an effective translation.  it must be emphasized that this was a strictly phonetic exercise.  he did not use the turk language.
 
 
-Original Message-From: Hakan Falk <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.orgSent: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 03:21:31 +0200Subject: Re: [Biofuel] vikings, turks and romans 


Chris,  Look at my mail to Bob.  The Vikings had a regular and well established trading relationship with Miklagård, which was Constantinople. This is proven in many ways, by written "sagas" and also by history from that part. When they visited Constantinople, it was special rules for them and they were not allowed to be a larger group or to have arms, which also is documented.  All the links are there, it is possible and Swedish historians have started to accept the links and their probability. They do not regard it as speculative. It is not much more that I can say off or on line, but if you have substantial evidence that the theory is wrong, the we can continue off line.  Hakan  At 02:16 AM 6/27/2005, you wrote: >hakan, > >i wasn't disputing everything you suggest. > >what i do have trouble with, and correct me if i'm misinterpreting you, is >the notion that the vikings could somehow be descended both from the roman >legions and the turks. could there have been contact between the romans and >scandinavia? possibly a trade relationship? certainly, but i find this >questionable because the vikings would have had little if anything to >offer that the >romans weren't already getting from the peoples of britania, and western and >central europe. it seems more likely that scandinavian goods would have >found >their way to the romans indirectly, via trade with the germanic peoples of >central >europe. > >but even if we suppose that there was direct trade contact, i highly doubt it >could have had sufficient regularity or depth to be of significant >cultural/technological/political impact, with the possible exception of >their longboats. > but even this i've never heard suggested, and it seems about as likely that >this influence could have come from phoenician traders. that is, if the >viking longboat wasn't an entirely autoctonous technology. > >there may be more to the turkish/turkic relationship, because the history >gets a little more complex. but it seems highly speculative in the least >if not >utterly baseless and fanciful, to suggest that the connections are anything >but extremely remote in some cases, and superficial in others. > >anyway, except for the fact that (as was pointed out earlier in this thread) >everything is connected to everything, we seem to have gone pretty far afield. > >perhaps you'd like to continue this discussion off-list? > >-chris b. > >___ >Biofuel mailing list >Biofuel@sustainablelists.org >http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org > >Biofuel at Journey to Forever: >http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html > >Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): >http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/   ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org  Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html  Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/  
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Re: [Biofuel] Biofuel as a rural community development project in Mozambique

[Hakan Falk]

Alexis,

You forgot maybe the most important factor and what keeps many
developing countries in their place. The question of trade balance
or rather imbalances!!!

For many are the internal cost the determining factor, because it can
be a major positive effect to lower the negative trade balance, even
if the internal energy produce has to be subsidized. The net effect
can make biofuel a win - win produce anyway.

It is also some more adaptions that has to be made to old engines,
the rubber seals has probably be replaced. This is however not a
major problem.

With the right climate, you can compare directly with Brazil and
gain substantially, at the same time as you get substantial job
creation. This is valid for both Ethanol and biodiesel.

Hakan



At 08:43 PM 6/27/2005, you wrote:

I am toying with the idea of trying to set up a pilot rural community
development project involving biofuel (bioethanol or biodiesel or SVO,
whichever is most appropriate) in Mozambique. I am hoping that you can give
me your opinion and advice on the technical feasibility, commercial
viability and ultimately, long-term sustainability, in a poor isolated
African rural setting, of small-scale, community-based, locally-run biofuel
production. If anyone has had experience of a similar project, I would be
extremely interested to have information about that.

Am I right in thinking that the technical feasibility is beyond question?
Bear in mind that we are talking about very isolated and poor communities
where everything has to be low-tech and low-maintenance. On the basis of
this criterion, biodiesel appears to be the most appropriate fuel as it can
be used in diesel vehicles/machines/generators (even very old and rickety
ones?) with no engine modifications. We can discount the issue of having to
change filters initially because of accumulated petrodiesel deposits falling
off (we could include the cost of new filters in start-up subsidies). We
also don't need to worry about problems with cold starts, since Mozambique
is a tropical country.

I am more concerned about the question of commercial viability. The project
will only be replicable on a larger scale and sustainable in the long term
if, after initial start-up costs, every link in the value chain has an
incentive to participate and it is profitable for all concerned (i.e. the
anticipated gains should outweigh the expected costs, including the
opportunity cost of doing something else).

a) Inputs: Local farmers will have an incentive to supply the biofuel
production facility with feedstock only if prices paid and quantities
required by the production facility are stable and remunerative compared to
undertaking other activities, such as growing other crops for other
purposes.

b) Production: Local entrepreneurs will have an incentive to make
investments in biofuel production facilities and operate and maintain those
facilities only if they can sell their fuel at a remunerative price, i.e. if
they can compete against fossil fuels (whether locally, nationally,
regionally or globally, depending on the scale of production).

c) Demand: We know that the world market for biofuels is growing rapidly and
that the policy environment is becoming extremely favourable. However,
supposing, as is most likely to be the case, that local biofuel is most
competitive on the local market (and least competitive on the global market,
where it has to compete with industrial-scale production), there must be a
critical mass of buyers on that market, i.e. local communities must have the
desire / ability to invest in machines, vehicles or generators, and the
ability to pay for biofuel on a regular basis to run those machines.

I guess the root question is the following: is the current situation in
rural southern Africa ­ no biofuel production ­ a market failure that could
be resolved by kickstarting a virtuous cycle in the sector with start-up
outreach and support activities and subsidies, or is it simply not an
economically viable sector except with permanent subsidy and support?

It seems to me that, to answer this question, there are three crucial cost
assessments which need to be made:

a) Start-up costs: the required investments by farmers, by local biofuel
entrepreneurs, by future biofuel consumers, and to what extent can/should
“outreach and support activities” subsidize these fixed costs?

b) Price and availability of feedstock: How will local feedstock production
compare to growing other crops or not growing crops at all? Might it
potentially actually be cheaper to import the feedstock from elsewhere
(which would defeat much of the local development aspect of the project)?
P.S. A lot of sugarcane is grown in Mozambique and the country has big
potential to become a major low-cost producer of sugar (and therefore
ethanol?) (although again, we are more likely talking about large estates
than small-holders).

c) Value of market demand for biofuel: How cheaply will local biofuel
producers be able to

Re: [Biofuel] Magnesol

[Keith Addison]

Hello Kenneth


Chris,

Have you thought about using salt water for your biodiesel washing?


You mean seawater? There's a lot more than salt in it, it contains 
just about everything. I don't know, but perhaps you'd be washing 
more in than you wash out. Might be worth a try though, with a 
one-litre test batch. But I think you'd at least have to end up with 
a final wash of fresh water.



The salt should help the biodiesel separate.


It shouldn't need any help to separate. Salt will break an emulsion, 
but it's an emergency measure, to be used when poor completion has 
produced a batch that should probably be re-treated rather than 
washed. In any case salt is a contaminant that should be removed by 
washing, not added - adding salt means there's more of it to be 
removed, and usually it takes more washes.


Best wishes

Keith




kk

Chris Sommerfeld wrote:


I manage a small biodiesel lab at a school here in the Bahamas.  We
currently make about 250 gal a week.  Within the next month we plan to
expand to make about 450 gal a week.  We are always looking for new ways to
improve our processing.  Currently we use bubble washing in the wash/dry
stage.

Water is very presious for us and I am intersted in using Magnesol instead
of water to purify our fuel.  I have run a number of samples of our fuel
with magnesol and have been pleased with the results.  In those experiments
I filtered the Magnesol/Biodiesel mix with a 1 micron sock filter.  I am
trying to spec a filtration bank that would filter the Mangesol/Biodiesel
mix for our 150 gal batches.  The Dallas Group (manufacturer of Magnesol)
recomends using a frame and plate style filter.  I have gotten quotes on
frame and plate filters that are over $10,000.  We can't spend that kind of
money.

Does anyone know of a cheaper source of frame and plate filters or an
alternative to using frame and plate filters when purifying with magnesol?




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Re: [Biofuel] Magnesol

[Kenneth Kron]

Chris,

Have you thought about using salt water for your biodiesel washing? 
The salt should help the biodiesel separate.

kk

Chris Sommerfeld wrote:

  I manage a small biodiesel lab at a school here in the Bahamas.  We
currently make about 250 gal a week.  Within the next month we plan to
expand to make about 450 gal a week.  We are always looking for new ways to
improve our processing.  Currently we use bubble washing in the wash/dry
stage.

Water is very presious for us and I am intersted in using Magnesol instead
of water to purify our fuel.  I have run a number of samples of our fuel
with magnesol and have been pleased with the results.  In those experiments
I filtered the Magnesol/Biodiesel mix with a 1 micron sock filter.  I am
trying to spec a filtration bank that would filter the Mangesol/Biodiesel
mix for our 150 gal batches.  The Dallas Group (manufacturer of Magnesol)
recomends using a frame and plate style filter.  I have gotten quotes on
frame and plate filters that are over $10,000.  We can't spend that kind of
money.

Does anyone know of a cheaper source of frame and plate filters or an
alternative to using frame and plate filters when purifying with magnesol?



___

  



-- 

Email Sig

  

  Kenneth Kron
President Bay Area Biofuel
http://www.bayareabiofuel.com/
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Phone: 415-867-8067
  
  What you can do, or dream you
can do, begin it!
Boldness has genius, power and magic in it.
  Johann Wolfgang von Goethe.
  
  

  






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Re: [Biofuel] VW Diesel

[Keith Addison]

Hello Joe


Greetz to all on the list;

I have joined recently but have not posted till now.
This thread just touched on a topic which has been on my mind.  The 
question of multifuels and which is the best etc. There seems to be 
an underlying assumption that I keep coming up against as I interact 
with local people and tell them about my biodiesel efforts and the 
whole green oil vs black oil issue.  Everyone including some on this 
list it seems, (don't be offended if you are not one of them)(but if 
you are one feel free to 1. be offended, 2. go do some soul 
searching) talks as if they just assume that this is a case of " Oh 
I can put this in my tank instead of that and continue on as ever" 
To me this is an example of our collective infantile world view that 
we can consume energy like pigs at the trough.  I wonder how many 
people, and not just the ones who are so wired into 'the matrix' 
that they just don't even see the important issues, but even amongst 
the so called environmentally conscious types that can be found here 
and there, how many believe that it is a case of just finding an 
alternative energy source so we can continue on the way we have 
been?  Does anyone believe that 80 to 100 billion extra barrels of 
vegetable oil can be produced every day to replace the petroleum 
industry?  Whether future multifuel vehicles will run on vegetable 
oil or ethanol or liquified genius to me is a moot point.  The truth 
is energy always has a price.  I am reminded that the first R of the 
famous three R's is REDUCE.  Using french fry oil again as fuel is 
only an example of recycling which is the third and least valuable 
of the three!  There is certainly not enough WVO to go around if 
everyone were to jump on the bandwagon anyways. We are fortunate to 
be the early ones who are getting a kind of free ride, only because 
the masses are still passing the oil dumpster by on thier way to the 
petroleum store to give money to people who are content to poison 
them for thier support.  I think there should be a lot more effort 
in the PR department challenging people to think differently.  To 
live close to thier work.  To walk and ride thier bicycles. This 
will improve the health and reduce the heathcare burden anyways. Buy 
stuff that is locally produced and think carefully about what you 
support and how you vote with your dollars. It is inevitable that we 
restructure society when the truth about the unsustainability of our 
lifestyle is in our faces and can no longer be denied in our daily 
routines.  Those who have already begun to restructure thier own 
lives will be ahead of the game when the time comes but why wait? 
Start todaypick up the phone and call...a golden future 
awaits..


Just my two cents.


A good two cents' worth.

However, you'd probably have been a lot more cheery about had you 
spent some time in the list archives. That's pretty much the message 
the list has been pushing for the last five years. It's almost a 
mantra by now: "Merely replacing fossil fuels is not the answer. A 
rational and sustainable energy future requires great reductions in 
energy use (currently mostly waste), great improvements in energy use 
efficiency, and, most important, decentralisation of supply to the 
small-scale or farm-scale local-economy level, along with the use of 
all ready-to-use renewable energy technologies in combination as the 
local circumstances require."


More than that, there's a great deal of attention paid to how the 
feedstock is produced. If you just swap fuels instead of changing the 
entire disaster you'll end up with wall-to-wall industrialized 
monocrops of GMO soy and canola. Big Biofuels may not turn out to be 
much better than Big Oil. Silly thing about it is that industrialized 
monocropping of biofuels crops would be (is) just as 
fossil-fuel-dependent as industrialized monocropping of anything else 
is. What's the use of finding a cure for cancer if it gives you a 
heart attack? So there's a focus here on sustainable crop production.


You might find these previous posts interesting reading:
http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/msg18745.html
Re: Biofuels hold key to future of British farming

http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/msg48264.html
How much fuel can we grow?

I think there should be a lot more effort in the PR department 
challenging people to think differently.


Um, PR is the enemy - there's a great deal about that in the archives 
too, and how to counter it. But your concerns are well-addressed - 
indeed, walk, ride your bike, "Is your journey really necessary?" 
Catch a train, not a jet. And so on. The list deals with the entire 
subject of biofuels, not just how to make it, put it in and go 
without a care in the world thinking "How green am I!" Maybe you will 
be, and maybe not.


Locally produced? The whole drift of the list is for local production 
and local economies - the sheer madness of the "fo

[Biofuel] Reprocessing question

[Bill Clark]

Hi Keith and all,
 
I made a 200 gallon batch of biodiesel last Friday. 
I used 200 gallons of wvo, 40 gallons of methanol, and 16.5 lbs of 90.5% 
anhydrous KOH from a titration of 4.5 g/L. After draining off the glycerine I 
took a 400 ml sample and performed a shake test.I got an emulsion. I added a 
couple of grains of calcium chloride and a thimble of vinegar and got perfect 
separation in about 10 minutes.
 
As you know, I have addressed the question of soft 
water in the wash and while the addition of calcium chloride and vinegar have 
yet to produce a poor result, I am troubled by this initial emulsion formation 
using plain water.
 
Today I took 1 litre od the biodiesel and 
reprocessed it. I used 200 ml of methanol and 5.4 grams of 90.5% KOH, preheated 
the oil to 120 F and blended for 20 minutes. After 1 hour there was no 
detectable settling of anything. The biodiesel remains in one phase that is 
slightly darker than the original biodiesel and somewhat cloudy. 
 
Does anyone think that I have a concern here or am 
I just being paranoid?
 
Thanks for any comments,
 
Bill Clark
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[Biofuel] Biofuel as a rural community development project in Mozambique

[Alexis Rawlinson]

I am toying with the idea of trying to set up a pilot rural community
development project involving biofuel (bioethanol or biodiesel or SVO,
whichever is most appropriate) in Mozambique. I am hoping that you can give
me your opinion and advice on the technical feasibility, commercial
viability and ultimately, long-term sustainability, in a poor isolated
African rural setting, of small-scale, community-based, locally-run biofuel
production. If anyone has had experience of a similar project, I would be
extremely interested to have information about that.

Am I right in thinking that the technical feasibility is beyond question?
Bear in mind that we are talking about very isolated and poor communities
where everything has to be low-tech and low-maintenance. On the basis of
this criterion, biodiesel appears to be the most appropriate fuel as it can
be used in diesel vehicles/machines/generators (even very old and rickety
ones?) with no engine modifications. We can discount the issue of having to
change filters initially because of accumulated petrodiesel deposits falling
off (we could include the cost of new filters in start-up subsidies). We
also don't need to worry about problems with cold starts, since Mozambique
is a tropical country.

I am more concerned about the question of commercial viability. The project
will only be replicable on a larger scale and sustainable in the long term
if, after initial start-up costs, every link in the value chain has an
incentive to participate and it is profitable for all concerned (i.e. the
anticipated gains should outweigh the expected costs, including the
opportunity cost of doing something else).

a) Inputs: Local farmers will have an incentive to supply the biofuel
production facility with feedstock only if prices paid and quantities
required by the production facility are stable and remunerative compared to
undertaking other activities, such as growing other crops for other
purposes.

b) Production: Local entrepreneurs will have an incentive to make
investments in biofuel production facilities and operate and maintain those
facilities only if they can sell their fuel at a remunerative price, i.e. if
they can compete against fossil fuels (whether locally, nationally,
regionally or globally, depending on the scale of production).

c) Demand: We know that the world market for biofuels is growing rapidly and
that the policy environment is becoming extremely favourable. However,
supposing, as is most likely to be the case, that local biofuel is most
competitive on the local market (and least competitive on the global market,
where it has to compete with industrial-scale production), there must be a
critical mass of buyers on that market, i.e. local communities must have the
desire / ability to invest in machines, vehicles or generators, and the
ability to pay for biofuel on a regular basis to run those machines. 

I guess the root question is the following: is the current situation in
rural southern Africa – no biofuel production – a market failure that could
be resolved by kickstarting a virtuous cycle in the sector with start-up
outreach and support activities and subsidies, or is it simply not an
economically viable sector except with permanent subsidy and support?
 
It seems to me that, to answer this question, there are three crucial cost
assessments which need to be made:

a) Start-up costs: the required investments by farmers, by local biofuel
entrepreneurs, by future biofuel consumers, and to what extent can/should
“outreach and support activities” subsidize these fixed costs? 

b) Price and availability of feedstock: How will local feedstock production
compare to growing other crops or not growing crops at all? Might it
potentially actually be cheaper to import the feedstock from elsewhere
(which would defeat much of the local development aspect of the project)?
P.S. A lot of sugarcane is grown in Mozambique and the country has big
potential to become a major low-cost producer of sugar (and therefore
ethanol?) (although again, we are more likely talking about large estates
than small-holders).

c) Value of market demand for biofuel: How cheaply will local biofuel
producers be able to sell their production, and how large will be their
market? To what extent can they compete with fossil fuels, and imported
industrial-scale biofuel producers on the local/national/regional/global
market? 
 
Do you agree with this general approach? Do you think the idea is viable?
Have you undertaken this kind of cost assessment, or do you know of someone
who has? Do you have ballpark figures for the various costs involved? In
short, should I keep working on this idea and try to turn into reality or
are the chances of success too low to merit serious attention?
 
Many thanks for your help.
 
Alexis 
 
 
Alexis Rawlinson
Economista, UTCOM-DRI
Ministério da Indústria e Comércio
Endereço postal: C.P. 400, Maputo, Moçambique
Tel: +258 82 8059650

_

Re: [Biofuel] VW Diesel

[Joe Street]

Greetz to all on the list;

I have joined recently but have not posted till now.
This thread just touched on a topic which has been on my mind.  The 
question of multifuels and which is the best etc. There seems to be an 
underlying assumption that I keep coming up against as I interact with 
local people and tell them about my biodiesel efforts and the whole 
green oil vs black oil issue.  Everyone including some on this list it 
seems, (don't be offended if you are not one of them)(but if you are one 
feel free to 1. be offended, 2. go do some soul searching) talks as if 
they just assume that this is a case of " Oh I can put this in my tank 
instead of that and continue on as ever"  To me this is an example of 
our collective infantile world view that we can consume energy like pigs 
at the trough.  I wonder how many people, and not just the ones who are 
so wired into 'the matrix' that they just don't even see the important 
issues, but even amongst the so called environmentally conscious types 
that can be found here and there, how many believe that it is a case of 
just finding an alternative energy source so we can continue on the way 
we have been?  Does anyone believe that 80 to 100 billion extra barrels 
of vegetable oil can be produced every day to replace the petroleum 
industry?  Whether future multifuel vehicles will run on vegetable oil 
or ethanol or liquified genius to me is a moot point.  The truth is 
energy always has a price.  I am reminded that the first R of the famous 
three R's is REDUCE.  Using french fry oil again as fuel is only an 
example of recycling which is the third and least valuable of the 
three!  There is certainly not enough WVO to go around if everyone were 
to jump on the bandwagon anyways. We are fortunate to be the early ones 
who are getting a kind of free ride, only because the masses are still 
passing the oil dumpster by on thier way to the petroleum store to give 
money to people who are content to poison them for thier support.  I 
think there should be a lot more effort in the PR department challenging 
people to think differently.  To live close to thier work.  To walk and 
ride thier bicycles. This will improve the health and reduce the 
heathcare burden anyways. Buy stuff that is locally produced and think 
carefully about what you support and how you vote with your dollars. It 
is inevitable that we restructure society when the truth about the 
unsustainability of our lifestyle is in our faces and can no longer be 
denied in our daily routines.  Those who have already begun to 
restructure thier own lives will be ahead of the game when the time 
comes but why wait? Start todaypick up the phone and call...a golden 
future awaits..


Just my two cents.
Joe

Keith Addison wrote:


Hello Jonathan, Lyn


Lyn Gerry <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

I went to the site that Keith recommended and it looks fantastic. 
What this
maker Elsbett sells is a one tank system you can put anything from 
WVO to
Dino into. If such a system exists, why are people bothing to make 
biodiesel?
It would be easier, more ecological, economical etc to just use 
vegetable oil.


I think about this problem both in the ecolological sense and the 
Peak oil
sense. Particularly with the latter, the fewer things you have to 
buy, the less

exposure you have to being gouged by corporations exploiting scarcity.
Anyone with access to a few acres of land and a home made oil press can
create fuel out of a variety of easy to grow crops.

Am I missing something?

Lyn

> >
> >Elsbett. See:
> >http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_svo.html
> >Straight vegetable oil as diesel 
fuel




Lyn, IMO, people will still process biodiesel for pure enjoyment 
among other reasons.  Many times it is not just about saving money, 
but the personal satisfaction of seeing your own homemade quality 
fuel put to use.  Quality biodiesel can also be used in other 
applications as well, not just for diesel cars.  People are heating 
their homes with it too.  There are many more applications that it 
can be used for where a system such as the one Elsbett produces would 
not be applicable.  Just my thoughts.   



I agree with you. We tend to think biodiesel is a transitional step 
between today's fossil-fuel addictions and the true multifuel vehicles 
of tomorrow, with motors such as the advanced three-cylinder Elsbett 
direct-injection car diesel engine developed in the early 1980s, 
updated (though the Elsbett was the forefather of all modern DI car 
diesels in production today). That's the reason we try to push veg-oil 
use, with whatever system, or even with no system, including mixes, in 
order to achieve a critical mass of users that's big enough to put 
pressure on the manufacturers:


"... in establishing what works and what doesn't work, some are likely 
to be left with the remains of what didn't work. They'll be heroes in 
the cause of real straight vegetable oil diesel motors, t

[Biofuel] solar energy stored efficiently

[Alt.EnergyNetwork]

Solar energy stored efficiently
http://www.physorg.com/news4749.html



The black stuff has world order over a barrel 
http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/story/0,3604,1515240,00.html














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http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Alternative_Energy_Politics/


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Re: [Biofuel] Magnesol

[Keith Addison]

Chris Sommerfeld wrote:

I manage a small biodiesel lab at a school here in the Bahamas.  We
currently make about 250 gal a week.  Within the next month we plan to
expand to make about 450 gal a week.  We are always looking for new ways to
improve our processing.  Currently we use bubble washing in the wash/dry
stage.

Water is very presious for us and I am intersted in using Magnesol instead
of water to purify our fuel.

[snip]

	Just out of interest, why don't you build a small solar 
desalination system - besides the financial reasons, I thought the 
reason people when to the Bahama's was for sunshine!!! I'm sure 
Keith probably has "squirreled" away on JtoF plans for a low tech 
solar desalination system that would provide you with the water you 
need.


Um, no, I don't. Sorry.

Keith

	If JtoF has nothing, get back to me, I know of a simple setup 
that could probably be made for a couple of hundred dollars.


Regards,
Andrew Lowe



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Re: [Biofuel] Cheating bully

[Michael Redler]

Thanks Andrew,
 
I guess the statement about designed obsolescence gives MS way too much credit.
 
MikeAndrew Lowe <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Michael Redler wrote:> Since you've been tracking Linux activity, I'm sure you know China's> commitment to Linux over MS as it's preferred OS. I don't remember> the details but, I do know that's a lot of freakin' computers! I'd> like to know if you have more info on that.Do a google for "Red Flag linux". It's a joint venture between China, Japan, Korea and one or two other Asian countries. Their intention is to get it working properly for the correct display of Asian text and then do a localisation for each country.> > FYI: I'm trying to resurrect some old computers and found that some> Linux distributions can run on most computers going all the way back> to Windows 3.1. On the other hand, I've been told that Windows XP is> designed to begin having performance problems after a certain period>
 of time. To put it bluntly, WHAT CRAP!! There is a big difference between someone sitting down with a blank piece of paper and designing a system to "slow down over time" and the just generally bad design of the whole Windoze ecosystem. For example on my home computer, I save NO user data to my c:\ drive, it all goes on the D:\ drive - it makes it easier to back up this way. Now for some reason I still have the "C:\Documents and Settings" directory, where I've never saved anything, at over 200MB. There are also services running that I have no idea as to what they do, and I write engineering software professionally for a living This is the problem with Windoze. It does things that you don't want it to do, it does things behind you back, it keeps stuff you don't want to keep and so on. Herein lies syour problem. Over time the system just gets laddled with so much gumpf that it slows down. Bad, not intentional, design
 causes the slowdown.Some even encourage reinstalling your XP OS if you plan on> having it for a few years.[snip]This is good advice. Probably after a year do a total reinstall and things will speed up again, but will then slow down over time. Also remember to do things like defragment your hard disk, flush out the registry with a registry cleaner app ever now and then and of course, make sure you are running anti-virus software.Andrew___Biofuel mailing listBiofuel@sustainablelists.orghttp://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.orgBiofuel at Journey to Forever:http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlSearch the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/___
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[Biofuel] america who found it?

[[EMAIL PROTECTED]]

1421 china ? sailed around the world?
http://www.1421.tv/

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Re: [Biofuel] VW Diesel

[Keith Addison]

Hello Jonathan, Lyn


Lyn Gerry <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

I went to the site that Keith recommended and it looks fantastic. What this
maker Elsbett sells is a one tank system you can put anything from WVO to
Dino into. If such a system exists, why are people bothing to make biodiesel?
It would be easier, more ecological, economical etc to just use vegetable oil.

I think about this problem both in the ecolological sense and the Peak oil
sense. Particularly with the latter, the fewer things you have to 
buy, the less

exposure you have to being gouged by corporations exploiting scarcity.
Anyone with access to a few acres of land and a home made oil press can
create fuel out of a variety of easy to grow crops.

Am I missing something?

Lyn

> >
> >Elsbett. See:
> >http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_svo.html
> >Straight vegetable oil as diesel fuel



Lyn, IMO, people will still process biodiesel for pure enjoyment 
among other reasons.  Many times it is not just about saving money, 
but the personal satisfaction of seeing your own homemade quality 
fuel put to use.  Quality biodiesel can also be used in other 
applications as well, not just for diesel cars.  People are heating 
their homes with it too.  There are many more applications that it 
can be used for where a system such as the one Elsbett produces 
would not be applicable.  Just my thoughts.   


I agree with you. We tend to think biodiesel is a transitional step 
between today's fossil-fuel addictions and the true multifuel 
vehicles of tomorrow, with motors such as the advanced three-cylinder 
Elsbett direct-injection car diesel engine developed in the early 
1980s, updated (though the Elsbett was the forefather of all modern 
DI car diesels in production today). That's the reason we try to push 
veg-oil use, with whatever system, or even with no system, including 
mixes, in order to achieve a critical mass of users that's big enough 
to put pressure on the manufacturers:


"... in establishing what works and what doesn't work, some are 
likely to be left with the remains of what didn't work. They'll be 
heroes in the cause of real straight vegetable oil diesel motors, 
that anyone can use, not just enthusiasts -- manufacturer-made, 
supplied and warranted diesels that can run on petro-diesel, 
biodiesel or straight vegetable oil, in any blend, without any 
fuel-switching or fuss: fill 'er up, switch on and go, stop and 
switch off, like any other car."

http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_TDI.html
The TDI-SVO controversy

However, "tomorrow" is likely to be a few years down the road at 
least. And even after that, there'll still be a very large stock of 
ordinary diesel motors on the road all over the world, diesels last a 
long time. Biodiesel will continue to be a good answer for them, 
especially because of the local-level or independent sort of 
production Lyn envisages rather than via big, centralised industrial 
operations. As you say, it's great making your own fuel!


Best wishes

Keith


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RE: [Biofuel] Re: Environmentalism is dead. What's next?

[Keith Addison]

Hi Chris


> back in the day, travel was not an easy affair (relatively
speaking), given the lack of roads, lodging and transport (other than on

foot), etc., not to mention the income with which to fund such travels.

nevertheless, there wasn't anything to really stop one if one had a mind
to. <

Before the Black Death serfs were bound to their lords, not allowed to
leave, move house or marry with his permission. Serfdom was just another
name for slavery.  Chris.


Only before the Black Death?

I once saw an interview with Warren Mitchell, who in real life is far 
different from the bigoted cockney right-winger Alf Garnett in "Till 
Death Do Us Part". He was talking about the phenomenon of the 
working-class Tory that Alf Garnett represents. He said, still amazed 
by it: "I once met a man who proudly told me that his grandfather had 
walked 20 miles to borrow a pair of boots so he could vote Tory!" LOL!


On the other hand, there's this:

"Why do families with the shakiest grip on the American dream support 
the Bush equivalent of taking bread from the poor and giving it to 
the rich?"

http://www.alternet.org/story/22294/

That article uses a millionaire's chauffeur as an example. I'm sure 
it's coincidental, but Edward Bernays, the father of PR, also used a 
chauffeur as an example.


... 'Amid a general complaint about the cost of taxicabs, and after 
counselling me to save my money and hop a trolley, Edward Bernays 
indicated that he, himself, had never learned how to drive an 
automobile. I expressed surprise. He explained that he had simply 
never had to learn to drive; among his family's train of up to 
thirteen servants, there was always a chauffeur. Bernays then 
proceeded to tell me the story of one chauffeur in particular, a man 
he called "Dumb Jack."


'Each day, he related to me, Dumb Jack would awaken at 5 o'clock in 
the morning, and prepare to drive Bernays and his wife (and partner 
in public relations), Doris Fleishman, to the office. The trusty 
chauffeur would then return to the family home to carry their two 
daughters to school. From there, he would return to the office in 
order to chauffeur Bernays and his wife to business meetings 
throughout the day, taking time out to retrieve the daughters from 
their school. At the end of the day, according to Bernays, a subdued 
Dumb Jack would step into the kitchen and, as the cook prepared the 
evening meal, he would sit at a kitchen table, lay his head in his 
hands, and take a nap. He would go to bed at nine, only to begin his 
routine again the next morning at five. Comparing this situation 
favorably to the cost of one cab ride to the airport today, Bernays 
ended his story by saying that for all of this work, Dumb Jack 
received a salary of twenty-five dollars per week, and got a half a 
thursday off every two weeks.


'Not a bad deal," Bernays confided, characterizing the benefits that 
his family had derived from Dumb Jack's years of compliant service. 
Then, with a lilt of nostalgia in his voice, he concluded his story: 
"But that's before people got a social conscience."


'At that moment, in that nostalgic reverie over a bygone era, my 
quest for historical explanation-or at least a piece of it-was 
satisfied. In an incidental reference to "social conscience," Bernays 
had illuminated an historic shift in the social history of property, 
shedding inadvertent light on the conditions which gave birth to the 
birth of the practice of public relations. As the twentieth century 
progressed, people were no longer willing to accomodate themselves to 
outmoded standards of deference which history, for millenia, had 
demanded of them.


'Bernays was the child of a bourgeois world that was, in many ways, 
still captivated by aristocratic styles of wealth, where relations 
between the classes were marked, to a large extent, by deep-seated 
patterns of allegiance-of obedience and obligation-between masters 
and servants. Like Mr. Stevens (the Anthony Hopkins character) in 
Remains of the Day, Dumb Jack was also a child of these circumstances.


"The "social conscience," to which Bernays had referred, arrived at 
that moment when aristocratic paradigms of deference could no longer 
hold up in the face of modern, democratic, public ideals that were 
boiling up among the "lower strata" of society. At that juncture, 
strategies of social rule began to change, and the life and career of 
Edward Bernays, I should add, serves as a testament to that change.


'The explosive ideals of democracy challenged ancient customs that 
had long upheld social inequality. A public claiming the birthright 
of democratic citizenship and social justice increasingly called upon 
institutions and people of power to justify themselves and their 
privileges. In the crucible of these changes, aristocracy began to 
give way to technocracy as a strategy of rule. Bernays came to 
maturity in a society where the exigencies of power were-by 
necessity-increasingly exercise

Re: [Biofuel] Cheating bully

[Andrew Lowe]

Michael Redler wrote:

Since you've been tracking Linux activity, I'm sure you know China's
commitment to Linux over MS as it's preferred OS. I don't remember
the details but, I do know that's a lot of freakin' computers! I'd
like to know if you have more info on that.


	Do a google for "Red Flag linux". It's a joint venture between China, 
Japan, Korea and one or two other Asian countries. Their intention is to 
get it working properly for the correct display of Asian text and then 
do a localisation for each country.




FYI: I'm trying to resurrect some old computers and found that some
Linux distributions can run on most computers going all the way back
to Windows 3.1. On the other hand, I've been told that Windows XP is
designed to begin having performance problems after a certain period
of time. 


	To put it bluntly, WHAT CRAP!! There is a big difference between 
someone sitting down with a blank piece of paper and designing a system 
to "slow down over time" and the just generally bad design of the whole 
Windoze ecosystem. For example on my home computer, I save NO user data 
to my c:\ drive, it all goes on the D:\ drive - it makes it easier to 
back up this way. Now for some reason I still have the "C:\Documents and 
Settings" directory, where I've never saved anything, at over 200MB. 
There are also services running that I have no idea as to what they do, 
and I write engineering software professionally for a living This is 
the problem with Windoze. It does things that you don't want it to do, 
it does things behind you back, it keeps stuff you don't want to keep 
and so on. Herein lies syour problem. Over time the system just gets 
laddled with so much gumpf that it slows down. Bad, not intentional, 
design causes the slowdown.


Some even encourage reinstalling your XP OS if you plan on

having it for a few years.

[snip]

	This is good advice. Probably after a year do a total reinstall and 
things will speed up again, but will then slow down over time. Also 
remember to do things like defragment your hard disk, flush out the 
registry with a registry cleaner app ever now and then and of course, 
make sure you are running anti-virus software.


Andrew

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Re: [Biofuel] Re: New thread - the Vikings.....

[bob allen]

howdy folks, I know this thread is far afield of biofuel, so if it is taken off-list, please include 
me.  I am half swedish, my maternal grandparents being from Kilanda, Sweden, and emigrated to the 
usa around the end of the 19th century.


thanks


Hi Hakan,
 The Vikings have an intriguing history (if you don't mind
my putting in my twopence worth). Originally a collection of pagan
seafarers, the Vikings developed into a military force when they struck easy
pickings in the wake of the Roman pullout from their northern colonies,
including England. From about the Eighth Century onwards, driven by
overpopulation at home and attracted by the relative helplessness of the
abandoned Roman colonies, they spilled out from the Scandinavian homelands -
today demarcated by Denmark, Norway and Sweden - in small fleets of war
canoes that swept across much of the known world.
In Europe, mostly around the sea coasts, they raped, pillaged and destroyed
much of the post-Roman culture, bringing about the so-called Dark Ages in
which literacy was kept alive in a few isolated monastries that escaped the
invaders.
They invaded the British isles in force and also set up settlements in
Greenland, Iceland and North America. Their kings ruled in Ireland, England
and Scotland and also held sway over the Atlantic Ocean islands of the
Orkneys, the Faroes, the Shetlands and the Isle of Man. The Duchy of
Normandy in France was founded by Vikings. Their war canoes also raided as
far south as the Mediterranean and some Viking chiefs set up trade treaties
with the Greeks.
Eastwards they penetrated far into Russia (the name Russia is from the
Scandinavian word "Rus"). and were for a time dominant in the Russian cities
of Novgorod, Kiev and other centres.
They were finally stopped at the borders of the Byzantine Empire, founded on
Constantinople. The Byzantine was the eastern half of the Roman Empire that
survived for a thousand years after the west had collapsed. The Vikings were
so highly regarded by the Byzantines that they served as mercenaries to the
Emperor in the form of the famed, and feared,Varingian Guard.
The Vikings faded as a military force at the end of the 11 century just as
European nationhood began to arise and with it the use of trained armies.
However they left traces of their culture, and genes, throughout most of the
western world.
In England today, in any town north of line across the English midlands, you
will still find Scandinavian influences in the local accent, with Newcastle
being the most heavily accented from standard English. English towns with
names ending in "by" (as in Whitby, Newby) indicate their Viking origins.
Given the history of the Brits, and the number of blondes and redheads among
them, the Vikings obviously also left a lot behind a lot of their seafaring
and fighting genes.
Regards,
Bob.

- Original Message - 
From: "Hakan Falk" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

To: 
Sent: Monday, June 27, 2005 9:57 AM
Subject: Re: Re[2]: [Biofuel] Re: Environmentalism is dead. What's next?




Chris,

Maybe I am adding more to it than it is, but the connection is there. A
very common
Viking name, that we know existed from the Vikings and I think that it was
a Hakon
in the Ericsson crew, that discovered America. The Roman Empire and their
conscript
armies, was going far up North in Europe, including England. When it comes
to my
name, I am very sure. I discussed this with some people from Turkey and
that were
those who made me aware of the similarities between the "rune stones" and


the


Turkish writings. I saved the link to the web site, but lost it when my


old


computer crashed.
If you find it, tell me, because I have not looked for it since then.

Regarding my name, it made something clear and that was why I got so many
email in Turkish.

If you then start to look at the  Viking villages, with its clear


structure


of advanced military
fortifications etc. It also explain the mobility of the Vikings, the


highly


sophisticated
shipping and navigation knowledge. The question is, from where came the
Vikings and
their tales about far away countries and Gods.

It is two years since I looked closer on this, but I will see if I can


find


something again.

Hakan




At 08:06 PM 6/26/2005, you wrote:


hello, hakan.

ok, i thought you meant something along those lines.  still, i don't get


the


link between the roman legions and the turks.  or are you referring to


the


byzantines (if so, they didn't have 'legions')?

i'll have to try and google the website you speak of, and see what they


say.


though, unless i'm reading more into it than you mean to suggest, i must


say


it seems highly dubious.

-chris




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Re: [Biofuel] Magnesol

[Andrew Lowe]

Chris Sommerfeld wrote:

I manage a small biodiesel lab at a school here in the Bahamas.  We
currently make about 250 gal a week.  Within the next month we plan to
expand to make about 450 gal a week.  We are always looking for new ways to
improve our processing.  Currently we use bubble washing in the wash/dry
stage.

Water is very presious for us and I am intersted in using Magnesol instead
of water to purify our fuel.  

[snip]

	Just out of interest, why don't you build a small solar desalination 
system - besides the financial reasons, I thought the reason people when 
to the Bahama's was for sunshine!!! I'm sure Keith probably has 
"squirreled" away on JtoF plans for a low tech solar desalination system 
that would provide you with the water you need.


	If JtoF has nothing, get back to me, I know of a simple setup that 
could probably be made for a couple of hundred dollars.


Regards,
Andrew Lowe


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Re: [Biofuel] Gilded cage

[David L Wood]

Yes, but how does a person BREAK OUT of this cage?? All I want is to be left 
alone to my own peacefull way of life. I do no harm to myself or others, but 
the "man" can't let me live un-oppressed.

Know any lawers that will work for the little person?

David wood

-Original Message-
From: r <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2005 23:54:44 -0400
Subject: [Biofuel] Gilded cage

The American society is in a gilded cage.  So sad.

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RE: [Biofuel] Re: Environmentalism is dead. What's next?

[Chris Lloyd]

> back in the day, travel was not an easy affair (relatively 
speaking), given the lack of roads, lodging and transport (other than on

foot), etc., not to mention the income with which to fund such travels.

nevertheless, there wasn't anything to really stop one if one had a mind
to. <

Before the Black Death serfs were bound to their lords, not allowed to
leave, move house or marry with his permission. Serfdom was just another
name for slavery.  Chris.  

Wessex Ferret Club  (http://www.wessexferretclub.co.uk)

 


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Re: [Biofuel] VW Diesel

[Jonathan Schearer]

Lyn Gerry <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

I went to the site that Keith recommended and it looks fantastic. What this maker Elsbett sells is a one tank system you can put anything from WVO to Dino into. If such a system exists, why are people bothing to make biodiesel? It would be easier, more ecological, economical etc to just use vegetable oil.I think about this problem both in the ecolological sense and the Peak oil sense. Particularly with the latter, the fewer things you have to buy, the less exposure you have to being gouged by corporations exploiting scarcity. Anyone with access to a few acres of land and a home made oil press can create fuel out of a variety of easy to grow crops.Am I missing something?Lyn> >> >Elsbett. See:> >http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_svo.html> >Straight vegetable oil as diesel fuel

Lyn, IMO, people will still process biodiesel for pure enjoyment among other reasons.  Many times it is not just about saving money, but the personal satisfaction of seeing your own homemade quality fuel put to use.  Quality biodiesel can also be used in other applications as well, not just for diesel cars.  People are heating their homes with it too.  There are many more applications that it can be used for where a system such as the one Elsbett produces would not be applicable.  Just my thoughts.   ___Biofuel mailing listBiofuel@sustainablelists.orghttp://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.orgBiofuel at Journey to Forever:http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlSearch the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000
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[Biofuel] The Overstory #156 - Permaculture Principles

[Keith Addison]

Permaculture can be a mixed bag, much depends on who's doing it. At 
it's best it's good stuff. A Permaculturist we're friendly with here 
has a nice set-up, but he doesn't think much of quite a number of 
other efforts, and neither do we. That's what I've found elsewhere 
too. Actually you'll find it all in organics anyway, as at the books 
in our Small Farms Library:

http://journeytoforever.org/farm_library.html

Keith

--

Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 00:21:49 -1000
From: "The Overstory" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Keith Addison" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: The Overstory #156--Permaculture Principles

The Overstory #156 - Permaculture Principles
By David Holmgren

::

The Overstory Book, 2nd Edition, a formatted, indexed and illustrated
compilation of The Overstory ejournal editions 1 - 138 is in stock.
Your purchase helps support publication of The Overstory:
http://www.agroforestry.net/overstory/ovbook.html


ADDRESS CHANGES: Please send any changes in your e-mail address to
[EMAIL PROTECTED]


::

The Overstory #156 - Permaculture Principles
By David Holmgren



Contents:

: INTRODUCTION
: Principle 1: OBSERVE AND INTERACT
: Principle 2: CATCH AND STORE ENERGY
: Principle 3: OBTAIN A YIELD
: Principle 4: APPLY SELF-REGULATION AND ACCEPT FEEDBACK
: Principle 5: USE AND VALUE RENEWABLE RESOURCES AND SERVICES
: Principle 6: PRODUCE NO WASTE
: Principle 7: DESIGN FROM PATTERNS TO DETAILS
: Principle 8: INTEGRATE RATHER THAN SEGREGATE
: Principle 9: USE SMALL AND SLOW SOLUTIONS
: Principle 10: USE AND VALUE DIVERSITY
: Principle 11: USE EDGES AND VALUE THE MARGINAL
: Principle 12: CREATIVELY USE AND RESPOND TO CHANGE
: REFERENCES
: ORIGINAL SOURCE
: ABOUT THE AUTHOR
: RELATED EDITIONS OF THE OVERSTORY
: PUBLISHER NOTES
: SUBSCRIPTIONS




INTRODUCTION

Permaculture principles are brief statements or slogans that can be
remembered as a checklist when considering the complex options for
design and evolution of ecological support systems. These principles can
be seen as universal, although the methods that express them will vary
greatly according to place and situation. Fundamentally, permaculture
design principles arise from a way of perceiving the world that is often
described as 'systems thinking' and 'design thinking.'


Principle 1: OBSERVE AND INTERACT

Good design depends on a free and harmonious relationship between nature
and people, in which careful observation and thoughtful interaction
provide the design inspiration, repertoire and patterns. It is not
something that is generated in isolation, but through continuous and
reciprocal interaction with the subject.

Within more conservative and socially bonded agrarian communities, the
ability of some individuals to stand back from, observe and interpret
both traditional and modern methods of land use, is a powerful tool in
evolving new and more appropriate systems. While complete change within
communities is always more difficult for a host of reasons, the presence
of locally evolved models, with its roots in the best of traditional and
modern ecological design, is more likely to be successful than a
pre-designed system introduced from outside. Further, a diversity of
such local models would naturally generate innovative elements which can
cross-fertilise similar innovations elsewhere.


Principle 2: CATCH AND STORE ENERGY

We live in a world of unprecedented wealth resulting from the harvesting
of the enormous storages of fossil fuels created by the earth over
billions of years. We have used some of this wealth to increase our
harvest of the Earth's renewable resources to an unsustainable degree.
Most of the adverse impacts of this over-harvesting will show up as
available fossil fuels decline. In financial language, we have been
living by consuming global capital in a reckless manner that would send
any business bankrupt.

Inappropriate concepts of wealth have led us to ignore opportunities to
capture local flows of both renewable and non-renewable forms of energy.
Identifying and acting on these opportunities can provide the energy
with which we can rebuild capital, as well as provide us with an
"income" for our immediate needs.

Some of the sources of energy include:
* Sun, wind and runoff water flows
* Wasted resources from agricultural, industrial and commercial
activities

The most important storages of future value include:
* Fertile soil with high humus content
* Perennial vegetation systems, especially trees, yield food and other
useful resources
* Water bodies and tanks
* Passive solar buildings


Principle 3: OBTAIN A YIELD

The previous principle focused our attention on the need to use existing
wealth to make long-term investments in natural capital. But there is no
point in attempting to plant a forest for the grandchildren if we
haven't got enough to eat today.

This principle reminds us that we should design any system to provide
for self-reliance at all levels (including ourselves), by using captured
and 

RE: [Biofuel] Re: New thread - the Vikings.....

[Hakan Falk]

Fred,

You read Swedish, so the article,
http://www.fof.se/?id=043jPress
should not have been a problem for you.

History is both a very interesting and important
subject and at its best hen it is shared by many.
We all are subject to history and that it is almost
always colored by the winners during certain periods.
It is a petty to take those discussions off line,
because it limits the exposure and possibilities of
corrections. I can only talk about what I learned and
it is probably one version of many and I rather stop
this discussion, than reduce it to a two version
discussion. For me, history is a fun puzzle with
several true solutions.

You also know that Gotland (the land of the Goth)
is an island in the Baltic sea, about the size of the
Spanish islands of Ibiza and Mallorca.

Long bows is a distinct weapon of the Roman army,
that was at the Nordic borders of the Roman empire,
like in bow and arrow. It was not used in middle and
Northern Europe and this serves as an archeological
identification. This legion "disappeared" around 200 AD.
It is not a ship design, if any misunderstood this. .

That Gotland became the home of the first Vikings,
is natural. The story you pointed us to, spans over
several hundreds of years and it is some timing
problems with it. The Roman empire seized to exists
in the middle of the century 400 AD and still it is mentioned
known Viking Kings by Jordanes, claimed to be a Roman,
that belongs to a period which is several hundreds years later?

The Vikings major populations was on Gotland and also
around Upsala, north of Stockholm. This history, claimed
by Jordanes, is very logical in its Geography and too easy to map
by a current European. It is more likely that it can be questioned,
than blaming some Christian manipulation. It is however
clear manipulation by Christians priests, when it comes to
the sagas by the Viking Gods. This is especially due to the
habit of missionaries to maintain feasts and holidays, but
give them Christian meanings. For the Vikings it was especially
the feasts of mid winter and mid summer, which translates
to Santa Lucia and a multitude of saints for mid summer. Here
locally in Catalonia, Spain, mid summer is the fiesta of Sant Juan.

Only a side paragraph about the original Same population of
the Nordic countries, which probably came by land and the
East. The Baltic Sea was regularly frozen in the past, which
allowed for easy access from the East. The Same population
have distinct features common with the Mongols and Chinese.
This is also the case for natives of northern US and Canada.
Those population movements are much earlier than the Vikings.

Hakan



At 03:33 AM 6/27/2005, you wrote:

Hello All,

I have refrained from this thread until now.  What you are saying here is a
mish-mash of the Snorri version of the origin of Odin, mixed with the basic
folk movements. Snorri, to keep the Christian Church happy at the time he
transcribed the Sagas etc, stated that Odin and the Aesir moved to
Scandinavia from Troy !!!

To obtain a better historical view, for a start, read the Origins of the
Goths, written by a late day Roman, Jordanes,
http://www.boudicca.de/jordanes0-e.htm here you can see the names and
locations of the people who were in pre-pre-pre Viking Scandinavia.

Jordanes states clearly the people living in Scandinavia were the long
before the Romans, and we have in Norway Stone age villages, bronze age
villages and Iron age sites.  The Longship design can be see evolving in our
cave drawings totally independent from Rome

Similarly The origins of the Dutch http://www.boudicca.de/frisian1.htm

The original Scandinavian Peoples (there are more than one) arrived in
Norway, Sweden and Denmark some 14,000 years ago from Central point of the
Caucasus.  On the way, they mingled with the Finno Ungaro people and
produced the current blends.

The origins of the runic writing system are different from the origins of
the people, and are indeed common with some runes found in Turkey.

Concerning the development of the longships, the Viking technology is
domestically developed and can be seen in the gradual evolution of the
design from around the Baltic over centuries, and includes the versions that
the Saxons used.  As a further point concerning the Vikings ability to
innovate, visit the State museum in Copenhagen and see the Viking wagon
fitted with wooden roller bearings...nuff said.

If anyone would like to continue this thread, I am more than happy to
continue off line.

Cheers

Fred Enga

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Hakan Falk
Sent: June 26, 2005 6:00 PM
To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Re: New thread - the Vikings.



Bob,

The Vikings are interesting, also because they were very good in
physiological
warfare. I did find an article about that they probably came from the
middle east,
but it is in Swedish,
http://www.fof.se/?id=043jPress
It is a well known and

Re: [Biofuel] VW Diesel

[Keith Addison]

Hello Jan


Hello Keith.
The system that I am referring to is described at:
http://www.elsbett.com/engl/index.htm
Technology/ 4. The ELSBETT duothermic combustion system.
Quoting:
"Only by combining the above mentioned elements it is possible to achieve
the optimum thermal and mechanical conditions required for the combustion of
fuels, such as natural vegetable oils, which are slow to vaporise."
These guys have a lot of know-how which is highly relevant for the
combustion of SVO:s.


Definitely, I doubt anyone else even comes close. They've been 
involved in it for so long.


However, just to clarify it for others following this thread, 
obviously the duothermic combustion system is not part of the Elsbett 
single-tank SVO conversion kit.


Main components of the kit are: different injector nozzles 
(manufactured by Elsbett, with a different spray pattern and angle); 
different glowplugs; coolant heat exchanger, electric filter heater; 
extra fuel filter (the two filters operate in parallel); temperature 
sensor; electronic relays for the filter heater and glow plugs; new 
fuel lines. And you have to increase the injection pump pressure.


A couple of friends helped us install the system in our TownAce. One 
of them had already installed one in his Golf (the guy I mentioned 
yesterday with the horrible oil). I'm very reluctant to mess with a 
car's electrical system (though I've repaired starter motors and 
alternators and so on when I've had to), but he works for IBM, no 
mystery to him. But they did some strange things, messy and chaotic. 
There's not much room inside the engine compartment, much less than a 
car. I managed to make some brackets so we could squeeze in the extra 
filter (they wanted to leave it out), though I didn't like it much. 
They decided to fit the coolant heat exchanger *outside* the car, 
mounted behind the left front wheel. Hm. I didn't like that at all. 
The relays were fitted under the cubby-hole in the dashboard, there 
were pipes and wires going every which way in the engine compartment, 
it looked like a plate of spaghetti. It worked, but in the end we 
went over everything again, from end to end, with a mechanic friend 
we work with (and send work to), a very good guy. There were wrong 
pipes in the wrong places and so on, just as well we checked. We 
ended up reinstalling it, putting both filters, plus a particle 
filter replacing the one inside the tank, the coolant heat exchanger 
and the relays on a steel frame in the dead space behind the front 
passenger seat. It looks like a bit of industrial sculpture or 
something, definitely a talking point for passengers. Much more 
sensible, plenty of space in the engine compartment now, and we only 
used about half as much fuel line. I'll post some photographs soon.


Best wishes

Keith



With best regards
Jan Warnqvist
AGERATEC AB

[EMAIL PROTECTED]

+ 46 554 201 89
+46 70 499 38 45
- Original Message -
From: "Keith Addison" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Sunday, June 26, 2005 6:36 PM
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] VW Diesel


> Hello Jan
>
> >Hello Lyn.
> >Yes, you are missing something. The main problem with SVO as diesel
engine
> >fuel is not the high viscosity, but the final boiling point and the low
> >cetane number. Elsbett system have taken action before these
disadvantages
> >and have designed a dual air system in the combustion chamber of the
piston.
> >This makes it possible to combust SVO completely, since the outer air
layer
> >isolates from the inner air layer, where the combustion temperature is
high
> >enough. And although the engine is directly injected, it is equipped with
> >pre-chamber injectors, on which coke will form, but works self-cleansing
due
> >to the typical design of pre-chamber injectors.
>
> Are you talking about the original Elsbett 3-cylinder multifuel diesel
engine?
>
> Best wishes
>
> Keith
>
>
> >Best regards
> >Jan Warnqvist
> >AGERATEC AB
> >
> >jan at carryon.se
> >
> >+ 46 554 201 89
> >+46 70 499 38 45
> >- Original Message -
> >
> >>>I went to the site that Keith recommended and it looks fantastic. What
this
> >>>maker Elsbett sells is a one tank system you can put anything from WVO
to
> >>>Dino into. If such a system exists, why are people bothing to make
> >>>biodiesel?
> >>>It would be easier, more ecological, economical etc to just use
> >>>vegetable oil.
> >>>
> >>>I think about this problem both in the ecolological sense and the Peak
oil
> >>>sense. Particularly with the latter, the fewer things you have to
> >>>buy, the less
> >>>exposure you have to being gouged by corporations exploiting scarcity.
> >>>Anyone with access to a few acres of land and a home made oil press can
> >>>create fuel out of a variety of easy to grow crops.
> >>>
> >>>Am I missing something?
> >>>
> >>>Lyn
> >>>
> >>> > >
> >>> > >Elsbett. See:
> >>> > >http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_svo.html
> >>> > >Straight vegetable oil as diesel fuel
> >>> > >
> >>> > >Don't get some two-tank system 

Re: [Biofuel] VW Diesel

[Jan Warnqvist]

Hello Keith.
The system that I am referring to is described at:
http://www.elsbett.com/engl/index.htm
Technology/ 4. The ELSBETT duothermic combustion system.
Quoting:
"Only by combining the above mentioned elements it is possible to achieve
the optimum thermal and mechanical conditions required for the combustion of
fuels, such as natural vegetable oils, which are slow to vaporise."
These guys have a lot of know-how which is highly relevant for the
combustion of SVO:s.
With best regards
Jan Warnqvist
AGERATEC AB

[EMAIL PROTECTED]

+ 46 554 201 89
+46 70 499 38 45
- Original Message - 
From: "Keith Addison" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Sunday, June 26, 2005 6:36 PM
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] VW Diesel


> Hello Jan
>
> >Hello Lyn.
> >Yes, you are missing something. The main problem with SVO as diesel
engine
> >fuel is not the high viscosity, but the final boiling point and the low
> >cetane number. Elsbett system have taken action before these
disadvantages
> >and have designed a dual air system in the combustion chamber of the
piston.
> >This makes it possible to combust SVO completely, since the outer air
layer
> >isolates from the inner air layer, where the combustion temperature is
high
> >enough. And although the engine is directly injected, it is equipped with
> >pre-chamber injectors, on which coke will form, but works self-cleansing
due
> >to the typical design of pre-chamber injectors.
>
> Are you talking about the original Elsbett 3-cylinder multifuel diesel
engine?
>
> Best wishes
>
> Keith
>
>
> >Best regards
> >Jan Warnqvist
> >AGERATEC AB
> >
> >jan at carryon.se
> >
> >+ 46 554 201 89
> >+46 70 499 38 45
> >- Original Message -
> >
> >>>I went to the site that Keith recommended and it looks fantastic. What
this
> >>>maker Elsbett sells is a one tank system you can put anything from WVO
to
> >>>Dino into. If such a system exists, why are people bothing to make
> >>>biodiesel?
> >>>It would be easier, more ecological, economical etc to just use
> >>>vegetable oil.
> >>>
> >>>I think about this problem both in the ecolological sense and the Peak
oil
> >>>sense. Particularly with the latter, the fewer things you have to
> >>>buy, the less
> >>>exposure you have to being gouged by corporations exploiting scarcity.
> >>>Anyone with access to a few acres of land and a home made oil press can
> >>>create fuel out of a variety of easy to grow crops.
> >>>
> >>>Am I missing something?
> >>>
> >>>Lyn
> >>>
> >>> > >
> >>> > >Elsbett. See:
> >>> > >http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_svo.html
> >>> > >Straight vegetable oil as diesel fuel
> >>> > >
> >>> > >Don't get some two-tank system that probably has copper parts in it
> >>> > >and all it does is pre-heat the oil to lower the viscosity, there's
> >>> > >a lot more to it than that, even with a Merc.
> >>>
> >>> > >forgetting to) - switch on and go, stop and switch off, SVO,
> >>> > >biodiesel or petro-diesel, in any combination.
> >>> >
> >>> > We've had a two-tank system for a couple of years but we never used
> >>> > it. I just didn't think it addressed the problem fully, and the more
> >>> > I learnt the more I thought so. A few months ago we installed a
> >>> > single-tank Elsbett system in our Toyota TownAce and we're most
> >>> > pleased with it. It does exactly what it claims to do, as we fully
> >>> > expected.
> >>> >
> >>> > http://www.elsbett.com
> >>> >
> >>> > Best wishes
> >>> >
> >>> > Keith
> >>> >
> >>> >
> >>> > >On 25 Jun 2005 at 8:46, John Hayes wrote:
> >>> > >
> >>> > > > You have the 'SVO destroyed my TDI' folks.
> >>> > > >
> >>> > > > And the 'SVO is just fine' pollyannas.
> >>> > > >
> >>> > >
> >>> > >I went to the TDIclub site as well. I probably only saw a fraction
> >>> > >of the posts,
> >>> > >and what I saw made me realize that I didn't really do Mike's
> >>>question justice
> >>> > >with my previous answer, so this will be long in an attempt to
> >>>provide more
> >>> > >substantive info.
> >>> > >
> >>> > >I researched WVO for a while and decided upon the Jetta TDI,
> >>>which I bought
> >>> > >specifically with the intent of doing a WVO conversion. I
> >>>chose the Jetta even
> >>> > >though the golf or beetle would have been more to my personal
> >>>taste, because
> >>> > >the consensus seemed to be that it was desirable to isolate the WVO
tank
> >>> > >from the passenger area because the tank is heated  - a hot
> >>>metal tank of oil
> >>> > >being not the most desirable presence in a passenger compartment
> >>> > >
> >>> > >There are a variety of systems and kits and ways that people
> >>>have done these
> >>> > >conversions and I have no doubt people have ruined their TDI's
> >>>with WVO. The
> >>> > >TDI has very close tolerances, also why it its such a high
> >>>performance engine.
> >>> > > >From what I have gathered, gumming up the injectors with WVO
> >>>is one of the
> >>> > >serious risks. Critical issues in the system then are well
> >>>filtered WVO and
> >>> > >that it be HOT.
> >>> >