date:20050711


Hi Bede

Thanks for posting this.


Worldwide reduction of meat production in the pursuit of the targets set in
the Kyoto treaty seems to carry fewer political unknowns than cutting our
consumption of fossil fuels, he said in a statement.


I love it! LOL! I mean I hate it but it tickled me.


Writing in this month's Physics World, British physicist Alan Calvert
calculated that the animals eaten by people produce 21% of the carbon
dioxide that can be attributed to human activity.

He recommends people switch to a vegetarian diet as a way to battle global
warming.


Amazing. Maybe some part of that 21% may concern fossil fuels used in 
factory farmed meat production, otherwise he's talking of curbing 
natural-cycle non-greenhouse gas CO2 emissions so we can go on 
producing fossil fuel greenhouse gas CO2 emissions like there's no 
tomorrow. He doesn't know the difference?


I doubt this bit: ... meat that is healthier for consumers. Than 
the worst of factory-farmed stuff possibly, but methinks I hear the 
same old words unforeseen side-effects down the line somewhere.



Meat is high in omega-6 fatty acid, which is desirable, but not in large
amounts. Healthful omega-3 fatty acids, such as those found in walnuts and
fish oils, could be substituted.


I'll stick to indefinitely sustainable pastured meat thanks, and 
carbon-neutral fuels too.


Best wishes

Keith



Further to the current discussion...

http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/83C43DC5-EB8F-4504-A9D3-4E25CE6B7F05.
htm
Meat can be 'grown' in laboratories

Laboratories using new tissue engineering technology might be able to
produce meat that is healthier for consumers and cut down on pollution
produced by factory farming.

While NASA engineers have grown fish tissue in lab dishes, no one has
seriously proposed a way to grow meat on commercial levels until now.

But a new study conducted by University of Maryland doctoral student Jason
Matheny and his colleagues describe two possible ways to do it.

Writing in the journal Tissue Engineering on Wednesday, Matheny said
scientists could grow cells from the muscle tissue of cattle, pigs, poultry
or fish in large flat sheets on thin membranes.

These sheets of cells would be grown and stretched, then removed from the
membranes and stacked to increase thickness and resemble meat.

Plan B

Using another method, scientists could grow muscle cells on small
three-dimensional beads that stretch with small changes in temperature. The
resulting tissue could be used to make processed meat such as chicken
nuggets or hamburgers.

Cultured meat could also reduce the pollution that results from raising
livestock, and you wouldn't need the drugs that are used on animals raised
for meat

Jason Matheny,
University of Maryland doctoral student
There would be a lot of benefits from cultured meat, Matheny said in a
statement. For one thing, you could control the nutrients.

Meat is high in omega-6 fatty acid, which is desirable, but not in large
amounts. Healthful omega-3 fatty acids, such as those found in walnuts and
fish oils, could be substituted.

Cultured meat could also reduce the pollution that results from raising
livestock, and you wouldn't need the drugs that are used on animals raised
for meat, Matheny said.

Perceived benefits

Raising livestock requires million of gallons of water and hundreds of acres
of land. Meat grown from tissue would bypass those requirements.

The demand for meat is increasing worldwide, Matheny said. China's meat
demand is doubling every ten years, he said.

Poultry consumption in India has
doubled in last five years

Poultry consumption in India has doubled in the last five years.

Writing in this month's Physics World, British physicist Alan Calvert
calculated that the animals eaten by people produce 21% of the carbon
dioxide that can be attributed to human activity.

He recommends people switch to a vegetarian diet as a way to battle global
warming.

Worldwide reduction of meat production in the pursuit of the targets set in
the Kyoto treaty seems to carry fewer political unknowns than cutting our
consumption of fossil fuels, he said in a statement.

The Kyoto treaty is a global agreement aimed at reducing production of
so-called greenhouse gases such as carbon dioxide that help fuel global
warming.
Reuters



Bede Meredith
Phone +64 21 892 801
Email [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.codesmith.info



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Re: [Biofuel] best of the best?


Hello Angel, welcome

Last bit first...

i have a question what is the best biodesiel vegtible with the least 
amount of maintence cost to produce?

i think this should be posted if you dont think so unsubcribe me


Whyever would we not think so? Of course it can be posted. But if you 
want to unsubscribe you'll have to do it yourself.


One more thing, what you shouldn't have posted. Your message is three 
lines, one kilobyte, no problem. But your post is 44 kilobytes, you 
posted all 11 messages in the digest and I don't think any of them 
has to do with your question. Sending it to thousands of members all 
over the worls wasted about 100 megabytes of bandwidth. Please cut 
irrelevant messages next time. Thankyou.


i have a question what is the best biodesiel vegtible with the least 
amount of maintence cost to produce?


What's the best crop to make cheap biodiesel? The question is too 
general. It depends where you are in the world, what kind of climate 
it has, what the farmers there usually grow, whether you're planning 
large-scale production or small-scale, whether there are markets for 
by-products such as seedcake, which some biodiesel crops don't 
produce. I don't think there is a one-size-fits-all best crop.


Best wishes

Keith Addison
Biofuel list owner


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Re: [Biofuel] biodiesel and WVO in all liquid cooled Diesel


Hello Richard, Jason


I believe you need to ask someone who knows more about biodiesel
and the equipment you are powering with it.  Of course, the
safe answer given by anyone who doesn't know will be no.
Investigate their knowledge of biodiesel before asking that
question.  I think the real answer is...it depends.  What is
biodiesel specifically?  What tests has it passed?
   Chemically speaking, diesel is diesel is diesel once it is
processed.  The quality of the processes used to generate a
quality product is what you should be investigating, I believe.
Any additional byproducts included in the biodiesel may be cause
for precautions (due diligence in investigation followed by
appropriate courses of action).
 Since there are so many sources and levels of care taken to
make it, they may be right in some cases.


Best is to make it yourself, or buy it from a homebrewer whose 
operation you've checked, or via a coop you've checked. Checking it 
and diligence in investigation mean educating yourself first. The 
Make your own biodiesel pages and the associated pages at Journey 
to Forever will tell you about quality tests and what they mean and 
why, and rather more besides.


http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_make.html
Make your own biodiesel: Journey to Forever

This next will give you a preliminary idea of who makes what kind of 
biodiesel, not quite what you might expect:


http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_vehicle.html
Biodiesel and your vehicle: Quality

Last choice is commercial-grade biodiesel, B20 in the US.


Are you planning use
it in cold weather, where it might become too thick?  So, you
may need to blend it with dinodiesel.


There are other options:

http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_winter.html
Biodiesel in winter: Journey to Forever


 Has the biodiesel you plan to use been tested to meet any
automovitive quality tests for purity, contaminants,
particle/size?  You may need to test your Biodiesel to be sure,
otherwise, you may just take a chance.


Commercial-grade fuel has been approved by a laboratory as within the 
ASTM standards, but when it started causing problems with people's 
cars it was withdrawn and a different laboratory found it wasn't 
within the standards. See above link re who makes what.



 From what I understand, biodiesel will generally act as a
solvent and release any accumulations of dinodiesel residue that
may have built up in the tanks of older equipment, and so you
may need to inspect and change filters more often, initially.


Other information here:

http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_vehicle.html
Biodiesel and your vehicle - Compatibility: Filters, Timing, Rubber


Hope this provides some food for thought.
  Richard



Hello,

I've been looking at different ways to use diesel motors in my 
lifestyle, burning biodiesel and/or WVO.  I've run into several 
people who've said that this or that particular motor won't burn 
biodiesel.  I'm confused, since I'm fairly sure I've read here and 
other places that ANY diesel motor with liquid cooling can burn bio


There are a couple of 2005-model VWs with newfangled injection 
systems that won't handle biodiesel, but anything else will.


and I believe WVO (with modifications, ie xtra fuel tank, straining 
grease and heating it to 160 F )


It depends which system you use and what kind of fuel injector pump 
the vehicle has. Lucas-CAV and Stanadyne pumps may not be suitable. 
More information here:


http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_svo.html
Straight vegetable oil as diesel fuel

with slight modifications to take into account the solvency of bio. 
I'm wanting to burn it in my Kubota tractor (new to me, 20+ years 
old), a replacement pickup for my farm and a perhaps smaller engine 
to run an electrical generator.


We've burnt lots of biodiesel in Kubota tractors, including 
20-year-old ones. One farmer with an old tractor changed two seal in 
the injector pump, $2 for the seals and $8 to have them fitted. But 
other old tractors didn't have problems anyway.


We have such a tractor, a Yanmar not a Kubota but much the same 
thing. We'll probably put a two-tank SVO system on it. We do have one 
but we didn't want to use it on the Toyota TownAce, which now has a 
single-tank Elsbett system. More about this here:


http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/msg51618.html
Re: [Biofuel] VW Diesel

http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/msg51634.html
Re: [Biofuel] VW Diesel

http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/msg51654.html
Re: [Biofuel] VW Diesel

http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/msg51624.html
Re: [Biofuel] VW Diesel

No problem with biodiesel and the pickup, and SVO is a good candidate 
for diesel generators.


Please let me know, am I right and these people just don't want to 
take the chance of being wrong (telling me it can burn bio if it 
can't) or are wrong?  Please also tell me again what modifications 
to need to be made

Re: [Biofuel] It's imperialism, stupid


Greetings Taryn, welcome

First let me say that I believe that violence is almost never 
justified and that terrorism has never(?) served the political 
purposes it was intended for. I believe that terrorism is a crime, 
not an act of war. A heinous premeditated crime, but different only 
in scale from e.g. armed robbery and murder.


But there's a definition problem, as some list members have been saying.

The other problem is that though it's quite easy to say that violence 
is never justified, it exists nonetheless. What is the best response 
to unjustified violence by others when it's directed at you? Passive 
resistance is certainly the way but it doesn't always work, violence 
can be intransigent, especially any kind of institutionalized 
violence.


I'd like to draw a different perspective on events like 9-11 and the 
London bombings.


2005, London, England: 	~50 killed, ~700 injured 
http://news.google.com/news?q=london+bombing


2004, Madrid, Spain:	~200 killed, ~1500 injured 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Madrid_bombing


2002, Kuta, Bali:		~200 killed, ~200 injured 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2002_Bali_terrorist_bombing


2001, NY  DC, USA: ~3000 killed.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/September_11%2C_2001_attacks

2001-2004, 2nd Intifada	~1000 israelis killed, ~6700 injured 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Aqsa_Intifada
	~2400 Palestinians killed, 
~22,000 injured.


2000-2005,  			A few hundred killed and many more 
injured, worldwide. 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_terrorist_incidents#2000s



Perhaps 7500 people killed by terrorist acts in the first five years 
of the 21 century. A substantial number, outrage is certainly 
justified. The governments of the world should be aggressively 
seeking justice for all these dead.  Here's some other crimes that 
ought to receive proportional outrage:


I think your point stands anyway, but this is worth noting:

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article9394.htm
Terror Attacks Near 3,200 in 2004 Count
By KATHERINE SHRADER
The Associated Press
07/05/05 AP - - WASHINGTON -- There were nearly 3,200 terrorist 
attacks worldwide last year, a federal counterterrorism center said 
Tuesday, using a broader definition that increased fivefold the 
number of attacks the agency had been counting.


2003-2005, Iraq		~1950 occupation forces killed, 
~13,300 wounded  http://icasualties.org 
		~23,000 Iraqi civilians killed,  wounded unknown 
http://www.iraqbodycount.net/


2002, USA (just 1 year)	~12,000 gun deaths. 
http://www.nsc.org/lrs/statinfo/odds.htm
	~43,000 auto deaths. 
http://www-fars.nhtsa.dot.gov/
	~158,000 lung cancer deaths 
http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/nvsr/nvsr53/nvsr53_05acc.pdf



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lung_cancer


I think that our administration and the american media don't have a 
good grasp of risk/reward and cost/benefit issues. Every 4 months, 
year in and year out, 3000 americans are shot to death, usually by 
americans, often with their own guns. That's a 9-11 disaster three 
times a year. Almost four times that number die on the roads, many 
of those deaths preventable by improved enforcement of existing laws.


Using terrorism as justification, the Patriot Acts are shredding our 
constitutional protections.
Using terrorism as justification, this administration has coerced 
our children into committing torture, kidnapping, and other war 
crimes.
Using terrorism as justification, in 2006 the Federal government 
will spend more than $600 Billion, 
http://www.warresisters.org/piechart.htm about half of the federal 
budget, fighting terror, at home, in Afghanistan, and in Iraq.


The numbers are so enormous that I can barely grasp them. If a 
billion is a thousand million (I think so) then we're spending $2000 
each for every child, woman, and man in the country, to protect us 
from a threat that is vanishingly small compared to the real threats 
americans face. Our government budgets almost nothing for real 
security like education, child welfare, consumer safety, public 
health, gun safety, transportation safetythe list goes on.


We'd all be a lot more secure if this country wasn't full of 
gun-totin', cigaret smokin', drunks in SUVs.  All the evidence shows 
that occupying Iraq makes americans less secure. I can promise you 
that the american soldiers in Iraq would feel a lot safer in lower 
manhattan.


It's a crime that we've been made to fear the unlikely, while 
blithely ignoring the obvious.


Bravo!

Best wishes

Keith



Taryn ornae.com



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Re: [Biofuel] Pimentel is at it again

2005-07-11 Thread RobertCVA





Regarding use of "human manure," it's my understanding that sewage sludge 
may be used in the USas a soil treatment for non-human-edible crops, and 
in fact that a good bit of it is recycled that way. (See "Garbage Land -- 
On the Secret Trail of Trash, by Elizabeth Royte)

I, like a number of others who have posted on the subject, have no real 
objection to the type of family farming where nearly everything gets used or 
recycled. (My father grew up in farming country, and it's amazing how 
effective they were in using the resources they had.) It's the industrial 
farming that is so problematic. I'm a vegetarian who also happens to 
greatly miss the taste of beef, chicken, and pork, but I've decided not to 
provide any profits to industrial farming and finding low environmental impact 
sources of those meats is generally impractical where I live.

BTW, I've read that some of the by-products of biofuel production can be 
further used, e.g., for seedcake for animals (?). If not usable to 
make another product, are the residuals reapplied to the fields? I 
would think they would still retain much of their mineral, and perhaps other 
valuable soil conditioners, after the biofuel is extracted.

Bob

In a message dated 7/11/2005 12:19:47 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
Well, I 
  don't think that the practice [applying human manure to farms] is allowed in 
  the U.S. regardless of its value.


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Re: [Biofuel] Fwd: Ethanol from corn vs Biodiesel from soy,etc.

2005-07-11 Thread Pannirselvam P.V

 Helo Bob

   Biodiesel can be made an intergrated way  to produce  defated
soyabens for  beef meat substuite and the oil can be directly or via
transesterication  to produce Biodiesel.As peanut , soybeans as
leguminas , they can surely improve the sutainable  enegy and food
production.Now days we rae using soyproteins for animal
feed.Sustainable  small scale farming and small scale industries  are
social technology where as big mechanised  farming and large scale 
industries  prefer ethanol as   apposed to smaller .Integrating small
and big  can be also done  by very good goverment to make  sustianble 
devleopments .Surely Biodiesel can win over  etanol production from
ecological and economic point of view.

sd
Panniselvam


On 7/8/05, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  
 
 -- Forwarded message --
 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Date: Fri, 8 Jul 2005 18:14:53 EDT
 Subject: Ethanol from corn vs Biodiesel from soy,etc.
 I have read various estimates about the net fuel gain from the production of
 ethanol from corn vs the production of biodiesel from soy.   (I'm aware that
 ethanol and biodiesel can be produced from other sources as well, but corn
 and soy seem to be dominate in the US.)   While the estimates vary, I would
 say that consistently the estimates for soy biodiesel are considerably more
 favorable than for corn ethanol.  I'm poorly informed on the economics of
 farming, but it would seem that farmers/ag corporations would see a greater
 profit potential in biodiesel, and that that would be good for the public at
 large as well.   
  
 Does anyone have any thoughts/information on why farmers wouldn't switch
 from corn to soy for the biofuel market?  Is it a matter of market, in the
 sense that there's more demand for the ethanol?  Of the infrastructure cost
 of switching?  Or?
  
 I apologize if there is information on this topic in the archives and that I
 was too inept to find it, and I apologize if my questions are naive.   It
 seems to me that biofuels will play a critical role in the national
 security, economy, environment, and human welfare in many countries and I'm
 trying to educate myself on the issues.
  

 Bob
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-- 
 Pagandai V Pannirselvam
Universidade Federal do Rio Grande do Norte - UFRN
Departamento de Engenharia Química - DEQ
Centro de Tecnologia - CT
Programa de Pós Graduação em Engenharia Química - PPGEQ
Grupo de Pesquisa em Engenharia de Custos - GPEC

Av. Senador Salgado Filho, Campus Universitário
CEP 59.072-970 , Natal/RN - Brasil

Residence :
Av  Odilon gome de lima, 2951,
   Q6/Bl.G/Apt 102
   Capim  Macio
EP 59.078-400 , Natal/RN - Brasil

Telefone(fone ) ( 84 ) 3215-37690 Ramal210
32171557
Telefone(fax) ( 84 ) 3215-3770 
residencia 32171557

 Cellular  84  88145083

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Re: Fwd: [Biofuel] give up meat?

not just grains, but *whole* grains. beans and *whole* grains. and even
then only certain combinations. not all beans will complete the amino acid set
when combined with brown rice. of course, there are still more grains that
those beans might be combined with, but i personally don't know of any.

have you verified the protein content of the beans and cornbread combination
your father so liked? i wouldn't have expected it to fit the bill based on
what i know.

regards,

-chris
---BeginMessage---

Howdy Ken et al

Ken Dunn - CountyEarth.com wrote:

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

if you want to eliminate meat from your diet, then you need to find
another way of getting the protein meat provides.

Actually, getting enough protein on a vegan diet is not at all a
problem. However, you do have to eat legumes and carbohydrates to get a
complete protein from vegetables alone.

I think you mean beans and grains here. There are several traditional dishes where beans and grains
are present. My late fathers favorite- beans and corn bread (he wasn't a vegetarian, but grew up
dirt poor where meat was a luxury)

Cajun fare- red beans and rice

Native American- succotash

and I am sure many others. The trick is to get the right complement of amino
acids in the diet.

There is much research going on
every day to point to a potiential excess of protein in the average
American diet but, I don't think that there is any definitive scientific
proof to conclude either way on this subject. Even the USDA has
recently produced reports stating that protein intakes needed to be
curbed in the U.S. - keep in mind, I don't hold much stock in anything
the USDA releases. The only real nutritional issue with a meat and
dairy-free diet is a defficiency of the vitamin B12 which is only
naturally available in meat.

yeast provides B-12. We (humans that is) actually produce lots of B-12 via microbial synthesis in
the gut, the problem is we don't absorb it. I have read that some B-12 is provided in the diet via
fecal contamination. :(

There are vegans who don't get
supplemental B12 and are quite healthy.

That depends. We store a few years of b-12 in the liver, but at some point one
must get more.

I get mine from Silk soy milk,

though.

Can I assume that the soy milk is supplemented with B-12 'cause it shouldn't be
there naturally?

--
Bob Allen
http://ozarker.org/bob

Science is what we have learned about how to keep
from fooling ourselves - Richard Feynman

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---End Message---
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Re: [Biofuel] ethanol from animal waste

2005-07-11 Thread Pannirselvam P.V

Helo

 Because  pig waste  has 80 porcent  water , biogasification will
be the correct choice  followed by termal cracking/gasification .Thus
the energy input can be minized as  rapid bioconversion  is also the
comercial process.
Energy balance can  make the etanol process  less competitive related
with natural gas compression , which is simple , can be  built easily 
with  suatianble coproducts. The the effluents is rich  2 time in
protein  as  animal feed can be  much more sustainable  to prevent
polution

sd
Panniselvam P V

On 7/9/05, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 Robert mentioned his concern over the masses of animal waste
 pouring into the rivers. I found these articles showing how in N
 Carolina they are starting to make pig waste into ethanol. Has
 anyone researched this area?
 Marilyn
 
 
 http://mark.asci.ncsu.edu/SwineReports/2001/03manbrett.htm
 
 Formation of Fuel-Grade Ethanol
 from Swine Waste via Gasification
 
 B. Kaspers, J. Koger, R. Gould[1], A. Wossink[2], R. Edens[2],
 and T. van Kempen
 
 Summary
 The objective of this project is to investigate the application of
 gasification technologies to the treatment of swine waste for the
 ultimate production of fuel-grade ethanol.  This waste treatment
 system would reduce the negative environmental impact of
 current manure management systems.  The research objectives
 are: 1) to develop and test a system for harvesting swine manure
 in a form dry enough to be used as a gasification feedstock, 2) to
 establish the feasibility and the gasification conditions for the
 swine waste/amendments feedstock, 3) to characterize the end
 products of gasification (ethanol and mineral ash) and their
 potential markets, and 4) to conduct a rigorous economic
 analysis on the entire swine manure management model to
 determine its feasibility along with the factors that promote or
 impede its implementation.
 
 Introduction
 Ethanol production (primarily via fermentative methods) from
 crops and other renewable biomass sources has received
 much attention recently, but the current approach has problems.
 Mainly, crop-based feedstocks are subject to seasonal
 fluctuations in supply, ultimately limiting ethanol generation.
 Such feedstocks necessitate either lengthy storage of the
 perishable plant materials or stopping ethanol production
 altogether during the off-season.  Another dilemma faced is that
 some of the feedstocks currently used in ethanol production (e.g.
 corn stubble) have a greater value elsewhere (e.g. fertilizer).
 More specifically, the energy cost in harvesting these feedstocks
 (e.g. corn stubble) as well as their lost value as soil
 amendments makes ethanol production costly to farmers
 (Pimental, 1992). Animal manures avoid many of these
 problems because they are a truly renewable feedstock.
 
 The quantity of swine manure produced in the U.S, estimated at
 5 billion kg dry matter per year, is sufficient to contribute
 substantially to ethanol supplies.  Assuming a conversion
 efficiency of 40%, there is a theoretical ethanol yield of 500
 million gallons per year.  North Carolina is the second largest
 hog-producing state within the U.S. with a swine population
 large enough for gasification technology to be feasible.  Thus,
 ethanol production of 80 million gallons per year should
 theoretically be attainable. The most recent RFA (Renewable
 Fuels Association) Ethanol Report (May 11, 2000) concludes that
 replacing corn with less expensive feedstocks will result in
 substantial reductions in ethanol production costs.
 
 Gasification of biomass has received much attention as a
 means to convert waste materials to a variety of energy forms
 (i.e. electricity, combustible gases, synfuels, various fuel
 alcohols, etc.).  Gasification is a two-step, endothermic process
 in which solid fuel is thermochemically converted into a low or
 medium Btu gas.  Pyrolysis (Step 1) of the biomass is followed
 by either direct or indirect oxygen-deprived combustion (Step 2)
 during the gasification process.  This process converts raw
 biomass into a combustible gas, retaining 60-70 % of the
 feedstock's original energy content.  Thermochem's steam
 reformer is the system we are investigating to gasify our
 feedstock because this type of gasifier produces a
 hydrogen-rich, medium-Btu fuel gas.  This gasifier design
 percolates superheated steam through an indirectly heated inert
 fluidized bed of sand or a mineral material.  The organic
 feedstock injected into the bed undergoes a rapid sequence of
 pyrolysis and vaporization reactions.  Higher hydrocarbons
 released among the pyrolysis products are steam cracked and
 partially reformed to produce low molecular weight species.
 This process produces a gas with nearly immeasurable
 environmental emissions of NOx, SOx, CO, and particulates. The
 main reason this particular gasifier design is favored is because
 of its hydrogen to carbon ratio (2:1) is ideal for ethanol synthesis.
 A

Re: [Biofuel] It's imperialism, stupid- limbaugh

hmm, don't be sure, todd.  you're assuming that rushie's true beliefs aren't 
ten times more extreme than what he lets show in public.  hitler was very 
selective and careful about the image he projected to the general public.  and 
if 
by rabid little zealot you're referring to the extreme emotionality he could 
display, this was more a tool he used for political rallies (at least earlier 
on), and in any case it wasn't so out of place in those days.

best,

-chris
---BeginMessage---

 Hitler would have been a guaranteed
 success as American talk show host.

Some similarities Hakan, but even Limbaugh is only marginally popular. 
Most of my right-wing friends see him for precisely what he is - a 
showman who's painted himself into a corner. A lucrative corner at that.


Even so, Americans would probably always opt for the bigger, more 
bellicose, fat man in a tie before they would a small, thin, guy 
sporting brown dress fatigues, a paint brush on his upper lip and trying 
to hide his bald spot with a comb over.


They would also tend to exercise their Christian principles of 
forgiveness and give a higher rating to the hipocrit-once-drug-fiend who 
knows their favored rhetoric backwards and forwards rather than a rabid 
little zealot.


On the other hand, at least in today's era, Herr Adolf  could probably 
be cast on some obscure network, like., oh., perhaps CBS? Or 
maybe the After Hours Disney Channel?


Todd Swearingen

Hakan Falk wrote:



Doug,

Amazing.

Hitler would have been a guaranteed success as American talk show host.

Hakan



At 04:51 AM 7/10/2005, you wrote:


Hakan,

 Rush Limbaugh represents the views of a substantial number of 
Americans,

enough that we have the president and legislator we have today.  Another
broadcast celebrity here in America is Paul Harvey and some recent 
remarks
by him advocating slavery, genocide and the use of nuclear and 
biological

weapons on his program have pretty much flown under the radar.  Visit
http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/columnists/ericzorn/weblog/archives/2005/06/paul_harvey_ah.html 


to read his remarks.  Harvey makes his living as a salesman and good
salesmen do not say things that could adversely impact sales.  Harvey 
has
been selling for over 30 years that I'm aware of, so he is a good 
salesmen.
He was correct in believing that enough Americans wouldn't be 
outraged to
substantially affect sales.  He may have back-peddled, but I don't 
listen to
his programs on a regular basis, haven't done so for a long time.  
Luck of

the draw that I heard that program that I did.  There are good people in
America, I have to hope they will prevail and the rest of the world 
allows

them enough time to do so.
Doug
 - Original Message -
From: Hakan Falk [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Sent: Saturday, July 09, 2005 7:22 PM
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] It's imperialism, stupid


:
: Ryan,
:
: At 05:23 PM 7/9/2005, you wrote:
: snip
:
: What is the probability that
: they would love and be grateful to the Americans? Why are the 
Americans

: surprised, when the Iraqis do not love them? Is it not understandable
that
: some of the Iraqis want to kill Americans, how would you react in 
their

: situation?
:
: I posted that, but you only repeated a part of it. The introduction to
this
: questions was and here is what I wrote,
:
: I always think about some obvious realities, when Americans come up
: with this dreams about the future. Iraq is a country with a population
that
: to 80% consist of old people, widows and Fatherless children under 15
years
: of age. The Americans have directly or indirectly been involved in 
making
: the women widows and the children fatherless. What is the 
probability that
: they would love and be grateful to the Americans? Why are the 
Americans
: surprised, when the Iraqis do not love them? Is it not 
understandable that
: some of the Iraqis want to kill Americans, how would you react in 
their

: situation?
:
:
:
: I have brought this up to several poeple, they all just look 
confused,
: like they can't handle the possibility that we are the bad guys.  
I use

: this example:
: If France decided that George W. Bush was a threat to them and 
said, well
: lets make a preemptive strike, then they came here and said to us, 
we

are
: liberating you from this oppressive government.
: You can bet on the majority of the American population picking up 
some
: guns and fighting the intruders.  The news would say it was our 
only hope

: for survival.  And the NRA (National Rifle Association) would have a
field day.
: Most people still cannot grasp the concept.
: 
: Here is the link to that respected talk show host.  This is the 
entire

: transcript, all of what he said.
: 
:
http://www.rushlimbaugh.com/home/daily/site_070705/content/rush_is_right.gu 


est.html
: 
:
: I do not normally read or listen to him, because for me as a 
foreigner he
: is neither famous or a normal diet, but did it now and

Re: [Biofuel] biodiesel and WVO in all liquid cooled Diesel engines?

2005-07-11 Thread Pannirselvam P.V

  Helow Jason Graves

   Becuase several information you get confused .The more sure what
you want , here in this  following list arquives you can find what you
want.

 http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/

  As I undestand , first you need to work  raw materil to get  clear
oil filter it , remove water , try using  a mixture upto 20 pocent
oil, 5 pocent gasoline to reduce  the visscosity and PH  the rest
petro diesel .

   Then you  can think of buying  the eletric heater kit or heat
exchanger system from  some reliable suppliers.

  Finally you can make  your own Biodiesel so taht there is no need to modify .

Sincerly
Pannirselvcam 
Brasil




On 7/10/05, graveshouse [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 Hello,
  
 I've been looking at different ways to use diesel motors in my lifestyle,
 burning biodiesel and/or WVO.  I've run into several people who've said that
 this or that particular motor won't burn biodiesel.  I'm confused, since I'm
 fairly sure I've read here and other places that ANY diesel motor with
 liquid cooling can burn bio and I believe WVO (with modifications, ie xtra
 fuel tank, straining grease and heating it to 160 F ) with slight
 modifications to take into account the solvency of bio.  I'm wanting to burn
 it in my Kubota tractor (new to me, 20+ years old), a replacement pickup for
 my farm and a perhaps smaller engine to run an electrical generator.
 Please let me know, am I right and these people just don't want to take the
 chance of being wrong (telling me it can burn bio if it can't) or are wrong?
  Please also tell me again what modifications to need to be made (specific
 hose types to change, etc).  
 Thank you for your input.  Sincerely, Jason Graves
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-- 
 Pagandai V Pannirselvam
Universidade Federal do Rio Grande do Norte - UFRN
Departamento de Engenharia Química - DEQ
Centro de Tecnologia - CT
Programa de Pós Graduação em Engenharia Química - PPGEQ
Grupo de Pesquisa em Engenharia de Custos - GPEC

Av. Senador Salgado Filho, Campus Universitário
CEP 59.072-970 , Natal/RN - Brasil

Residence :
Av  Odilon gome de lima, 2951,
   Q6/Bl.G/Apt 102
   Capim  Macio
EP 59.078-400 , Natal/RN - Brasil

Telefone(fone ) ( 84 ) 3215-37690 Ramal210
32171557
Telefone(fax) ( 84 ) 3215-3770 
residencia 32171557

 Cellular  84  88145083

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Re: Re[2]: [Biofuel] Hybrid Diesel

earl, i'm not familiar with any federal laws protecting workers, except for 
anti-discrimination laws.  if you're referring to more than that, please 
enlighten me.

as fro state laws, don't be fooled by what you found in PA.  many states have 
very poor worker protections.  for example, employers in many states can fire 
an employee for virtually any reason, because they are not required to have 
one.  so although it might be illegal for a company to fire someone for, say, 
refusing to commit a crime, they can still fire you without justification.  
leaving it up to the worker to taking legal action, if they can make a solid 
case.  this kind of employer power leads to many workers allowing their 
employer 
get away with a whole lot of things from which the law supposedly protects them.

best,

-chris

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Re: [Biofuel] Pimentel is at it again

2005-07-11 Thread r

Some time ago, I contacted the Human Milk Banking Association of North 
America (www.hmbana.org) without getting a response about getting milk 
for consumption. The web site mentions that human milk is to be used for 
therapeutic and nutritional purposes for babies ( no mention of adults) 
although adults, especially elderly ones, need calcium in a highly 
digestible form (like in human milk) to prevent/cure 
osteopenia/osteoporosis.


[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

My mother and grandfather swear by this stuff.  I have no affiliation 
with this site, it was on google.  I haven't taken any of this 
colostrum, but my grandfather and his girlfriend say it saved their 
lives.  I am not sure of the valitidy of this, as we see in America, 
advertising can create a wonderdrug...barefoot coral calcium for 
example.  all over the tv, it was the hottest fad in living forever, 
now it is top shelf in the back.


This just came to mind when you mentioned the diseases.

Ryan
- Original Message - From: r [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Sent: Sunday, July 10, 2005 10:48 PM
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Pimentel is at it again


If we assume that the human body knows what it needs, then if human 
milk is the most appropriate to feed humans, how come we are drinking 
cow milk instead of human milk?   How about industrialized human milk 
production? That should help to cure/prevent a fair amount of 
diseases prevalent in our societies?


[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:




Ken Dunn - CountyEarth.com wrote:

Why do you object to milk production? Or is it, again, that you're 
objecting to industrialised milk production?





I wouldn't say that I object to milk production at all, I am 
questioning the sustainability of the practice and also the 
nutritional value to humans.  And yes, I do most definitely object 
to industrialized milk production.  Really,  I'm just trying to 
understand.  Hopefully, it might help someone else also.




I should add that as mammals ourselves there is nothing that bovine 
milk provides to us that we cannot get directly from other foods or 
manufacture ourselves.


Take care,
Ken

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Re: [Biofuel] It's imperialism, stupid- limbaugh

Not to mention that most of the lucrative rebuilding work has gone to 
Halliburton or its affiliates - their *very* highly paid workers
drive past idle Iraqis - most of whom need jobs.  I think if some of the 
American largess trickled down that alone would improve our image.


Meanwhile, in other news, OBL is still at large, and Hamid Karzai is the 
mayor of Kabul and nothinig else.  Talk of empty promises...


[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

hmm, don't be sure, todd.  you're assuming that rushie's true beliefs aren't 
ten times more extreme than what he lets show in public.  hitler was very 
selective and careful about the image he projected to the general public.  and if 
by rabid little zealot you're referring to the extreme emotionality he could 
display, this was more a tool he used for political rallies (at least earlier 
on), and in any case it wasn't so out of place in those days.


best,

-chris
 





Subject:
Re: [Biofuel] It's imperialism, stupid- limbaugh
From:
Appal Energy [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date:
Sun, 10 Jul 2005 16:02:15 -0400
To:
Biofuel@sustainablelists.org

To:
Biofuel@sustainablelists.org


 Hitler would have been a guaranteed
 success as American talk show host.

Some similarities Hakan, but even Limbaugh is only marginally 
popular. Most of my right-wing friends see him for precisely what he 
is - a showman who's painted himself into a corner. A lucrative corner 
at that.


Even so, Americans would probably always opt for the bigger, more 
bellicose, fat man in a tie before they would a small, thin, guy 
sporting brown dress fatigues, a paint brush on his upper lip and 
trying to hide his bald spot with a comb over.


They would also tend to exercise their Christian principles of 
forgiveness and give a higher rating to the hipocrit-once-drug-fiend 
who knows their favored rhetoric backwards and forwards rather than a 
rabid little zealot.


On the other hand, at least in today's era, Herr Adolf  could probably 
be cast on some obscure network, like., oh., perhaps CBS? Or 
maybe the After Hours Disney Channel?


Todd Swearingen

Hakan Falk wrote:



Doug,

Amazing.

Hitler would have been a guaranteed success as American talk show host.

Hakan



At 04:51 AM 7/10/2005, you wrote:


Hakan,

 Rush Limbaugh represents the views of a substantial number of 
Americans,
enough that we have the president and legislator we have today.  
Another
broadcast celebrity here in America is Paul Harvey and some recent 
remarks
by him advocating slavery, genocide and the use of nuclear and 
biological

weapons on his program have pretty much flown under the radar.  Visit
http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/columnists/ericzorn/weblog/archives/2005/06/paul_harvey_ah.html 


to read his remarks.  Harvey makes his living as a salesman and good
salesmen do not say things that could adversely impact sales.  
Harvey has
been selling for over 30 years that I'm aware of, so he is a good 
salesmen.
He was correct in believing that enough Americans wouldn't be 
outraged to
substantially affect sales.  He may have back-peddled, but I don't 
listen to
his programs on a regular basis, haven't done so for a long time.  
Luck of
the draw that I heard that program that I did.  There are good 
people in
America, I have to hope they will prevail and the rest of the world 
allows

them enough time to do so.
Doug
 - Original Message -
From: Hakan Falk [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Sent: Saturday, July 09, 2005 7:22 PM
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] It's imperialism, stupid


:
: Ryan,
:
: At 05:23 PM 7/9/2005, you wrote:
: snip
:
: What is the probability that
: they would love and be grateful to the Americans? Why are the 
Americans
: surprised, when the Iraqis do not love them? Is it not 
understandable

that
: some of the Iraqis want to kill Americans, how would you react in 
their

: situation?
:
: I posted that, but you only repeated a part of it. The 
introduction to

this
: questions was and here is what I wrote,
:
: I always think about some obvious realities, when Americans come up
: with this dreams about the future. Iraq is a country with a 
population

that
: to 80% consist of old people, widows and Fatherless children under 15
years
: of age. The Americans have directly or indirectly been involved in 
making
: the women widows and the children fatherless. What is the 
probability that
: they would love and be grateful to the Americans? Why are the 
Americans
: surprised, when the Iraqis do not love them? Is it not 
understandable that
: some of the Iraqis want to kill Americans, how would you react in 
their

: situation?
:
:
:
: I have brought this up to several poeple, they all just look 
confused,
: like they can't handle the possibility that we are the bad guys.  
I use

: this example:
: If France decided that George W. Bush was a threat to them and 
said, well
: lets make a preemptive strike, then they came

Re: Fwd: [Biofuel] give up meat?

Hogwash.  How many people have you known who suffer from Kwashiorkor 
http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/ency/article/001604.htm?  None, 
I'll warrant.  How many do you know
suffering from heart disease, diabetis or obesity?  60% of the 
population.  The US suffers diseases of affluence, not malnutrition.  The
combining protein myth was debunked years ago.  Next I'll be hearing 
about how human beings suffer from cow's milk deficiency.


Yeesh.*
*


[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

not just grains, but *whole* grains.  beans and *whole* grains.  and even 
then only certain combinations.  not all beans will complete the amino acid set 
when combined with brown rice.  of course, there are still more grains that 
those beans might be combined with, but i personally don't know of any.


have you verified the protein content of the beans and cornbread combination 
your father so liked?  i wouldn't have expected it to fit the bill based on 
what i know.


regards,

-chris
 





Subject:
Re: Fwd: [Biofuel] give up meat?
From:
bob allen [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date:
Sun, 10 Jul 2005 13:25:36 -0500
To:
Biofuel@sustainablelists.org

To:
Biofuel@sustainablelists.org


Howdy Ken et al

Ken Dunn - CountyEarth.com wrote:



[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

if you want to eliminate meat from your diet, then you need to find 
another way of getting the protein meat provides.




Actually,  getting enough protein on a vegan diet is not at all a 
problem.  However, you do have to eat legumes and carbohydrates to 
get a complete protein from vegetables alone.



I think you mean beans and grains here.  There are several traditional 
dishes where beans and grains are present. My late fathers favorite- 
beans and corn bread (he wasn't a vegetarian, but grew up dirt poor 
where meat was a luxury)


Cajun fare- red beans and rice

Native American- succotash

and I am sure many others.  The trick is to get the right complement 
of amino acids in the diet.


  There is much research going on

every day to point to a potiential excess of protein in the average 
American diet but, I don't think that there is any definitive 
scientific proof to conclude either way on this subject.  Even the 
USDA has recently produced reports stating that protein intakes 
needed to be curbed in the U.S. - keep in mind,  I don't hold much 
stock in anything the USDA releases.   The only real nutritional 
issue with a meat and dairy-free diet is a defficiency of the vitamin 
B12 which is only naturally available in meat.



yeast provides B-12.   We (humans that is) actually produce lots of 
B-12 via microbial synthesis in the gut, the problem is we don't 
absorb it. I have read that some B-12 is provided in the diet via 
fecal contamination.  :(






  There are vegans who don't get

supplemental B12 and are quite healthy. 



That depends.  We store a few years of b-12 in the liver, but at some 
point one must get more.




 I get mine from Silk soy milk,


though.



Can I assume that the soy milk is supplemented with B-12 'cause it 
shouldn't be there naturally?







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Re: [Biofuel] Hybrid Diesel


NLRB?  OSHA?  At least before the present administration.

Also, most employment in the US is termed at will either side can fire 
the other.


I agree it's far from perfect, and leads to abuses, but the opposite, 
making it impossible to fire workers, is worse.  I worked some in
Bamako, Mali, and no one will hire anyone because they can never be 
fired.  The result?  A worker's paradise?  Nope.  No jobs and no economy.


Look at the current donnybrook in France w/ Evian.





[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

earl, i'm not familiar with any federal laws protecting workers, except for 
anti-discrimination laws.  if you're referring to more than that, please 
enlighten me.


as fro state laws, don't be fooled by what you found in PA.  many states have 
very poor worker protections.  for example, employers in many states can fire 
an employee for virtually any reason, because they are not required to have 
one.  so although it might be illegal for a company to fire someone for, say, 
refusing to commit a crime, they can still fire you without justification.  
leaving it up to the worker to taking legal action, if they can make a solid 
case.  this kind of employer power leads to many workers allowing their employer 
get away with a whole lot of things from which the law supposedly protects them.


best,

-chris

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Re: [Biofuel] Hybrid Diesel

2005-07-11 Thread John Hayes





[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
earl, i'm not familiar with any federal laws protecting workers, except for 
anti-discrimination laws.  if you're referring to more than that, please 
enlighten me.


Chris are you serious? I can think of plenty of federal protection for 
workers off the top of my head.


a) minimum wage
b) overtime rules (40 hr work week for hourly employees)
c) OSHA
d) EPA
e) NLRB
f) maternity/paternity leave
g) child labor laws

You may think worker protection doesn't go far enough but we're 
certainly not talking about the grossly unregulated laissez faire 
capitalism that made unions so necessary at the turn of the *least* 
century. Children don't work in textile mills. Miners don't work 12 hr 
shifts 6 days a week.


Given these protections, the benefits of unionization are far less 
compelling than in the past. Given the drawbacks: dues, seniority over 
merit, inability to cut deadwood, inability to negotiate an individual 
contract, it isn't suprising that union membership has steadily declined 
over the past several decades.


as fro state laws, don't be fooled by what you found in PA.  many states have 
very poor worker protections.  for example, employers in many states can fire 
an employee for virtually any reason, because they are not required to have 
one.  so although it might be illegal for a company to fire someone for, say, 
refusing to commit a crime, they can still fire you without justification.  


Tthis is called At-will employment and is the norm under US law unless 
your contract explicitly stipulates otherwise. However, all states also 
have common law exception to the at-will rule for retaliatory discharge; 
if an employer fires you for refusing to commit a criminal act, they are 
legally accountable. But yes, barring whistle-blower retaliation, a US 
employer can typically fire an employee without cause as is required in 
some other countries.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/At_will_employment
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/At-will_employment

(wikipedia has two different pages on this topic)

I assume from your comments that you think federal labor laws should 
provide some job security provisions?





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Re[4]: [Biofuel] Hybrid Diesel

2005-07-11 Thread Gustl Steiner-Zehender

Hallo Earl,

Sunday, 10 July, 2005, 21:41:03, you wrote:

Kac Which  is  why  I didn't join the Libertarian Party, or any party
Kac for  that  matter.  Everytime  I  look  up a particular political
Kac party,  I  find something that I don't agree with. I think I will
Kac just  stay  an  independent,  as  I have for the last 17 years. I
Kac voted  for Badnarik in the last election because he seemed like a
Kac better choice than Candidate R or Candidate D.

I  don't get mixed up with partisan politics and political parties for
religious  reasons  but  I  do  believe in keeping as well informed as
possible.

Kac On  unions, it seems like the Government has enacted enough labor
Kac laws  that  the  unions  no  longer  seem  useful. There are more
Kac federal  and  state laws today (119 in PA stick in my mind from a
Kac recent  HR seminar I went to) that protect the individual worker,
Kac but  none that protect the employers. I am not saying that unions
Kac aren't  worthy  endeavors, but the Government has taken away much
Kac of  their  power.  Nowadays,  unions  are  really  just  good for
Kac negotiating   rates  and  benefits  and  keeping  senior  members
Kac employed.  I  think  many of those labor laws should be scrapped,
Kac and  more  power  put  back into the hands of the individuals, or
Kac groups of individuals (i.e., unions).

My  grandfather  went  to work for General Motors in 1915 I believe or
perhaps  it was 1919.  I don't remember exactly and he is long dead so
I  can't  ask.  He was involved in the 1936 strike in Flint (Michigan)
which  brought about the recognition of the union.  I remember talking
to  him back in about 1960 about the strikes and the union and he told
me that in the beginning the union was a good and unfortunately needed
organization but over the years it had grown more and more to resemble
the  bosses and it seemed to him now that the purpose of the union was
to  maintain the status quo:  keep the workers satisfied enough to not
strike  and  the  bosses satisfied enough to not complain and keep the
union  management  in  power.   He  even  gave a specific year when he
perceived  that  the  values of the union leadership became entirely
corrupted  and  that was 1955.  He told me that that was the same year
when  the  quality of the Buick and Cadillac had become so bad that a
body  might  as  well  drive  a  Chevy or Ford because they were less
expensive and the quality was the same.

Over  the years I have been a union member because it was required.  I
have  been  a  member  of locals affiliated with GM, Ford and Jeep and
with  the  IWW  as  well.   The  IWW  was  the best of them and it was
unsatisfactory.   The UAW locals were pretty much clones of each other
and  relatively worthless in any real sense.  The IWW wasn't great but
it is the only union I know of whose members held a strike because the
owners  were  trying  to  force  a  pay increase on the workers so the
bosses  could use the pay increase as an excuse to close the business,
get  rid  of the union and then re-open.  That notwithstanding I still
did not care for the IWW either.

The  employers don't need much protection from the workers.  They need
protection  from  the  government.   Had  the  employers been fair and
reasonable  there  would  have  never been a union in the first place.
The  salaries  and  benefit  packages of management run from generally
much greater than that of the hourly employees to obscene.  Admittedly
the smaller the company the less the disparity but how reasonable must
an  employee  be  then?   To  the  point  of near starvation or barely
scraping by?  You understand of course that I am not talking about mom
and  pop businesses now, eh?  And while I'm thinking about it just how
is  it  that  business  owners have the right to say that their profit
margin  is  not great enough but that employees don't have the right
to say that their wages are not great enough?  Somewhere in here there
needs  to  be  a  return  to reason and cooperation.  By the way Earl,
these  thoughts  aren't  directed  specifically  at  you they are just
rolling around in the empty space in my head.  Another by the way, the
union  example  was  just the first thing which popped into that empty
space.  There are similar examples all through the platform.

There  are  all  kinds  of ways for employers to get around government
regulations.   We all know that.  Age, sex, race discrimination?  Each
can  be  gotten around.  Perhaps not forever but generally they can be
avoided.  Shoot, I know places in Ohio which won't allow OSHA on their
property.   Rules,  regulations,  strikes  and slowdowns are no decent
substitute for reason and cooperation but...

Government  seems  to  be  in  the  business of defining and enforcing
morality  and  that  is where the rules come from.  Unions do the same
thing.  The problem is that they don't agree on the definitions and so
they both talk about different things using the same

Re: [Biofuel] ethanol from animal waste

2005-07-11 Thread 6 Heins

I live in an area that has large numbers of dairy
farms. Does anyone know If this is possible with dairy
cattle waste?

Thanks, Steve

--- Pannirselvam  P.V [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 Helo
 
  Because  pig waste  has 80 porcent  water ,
 biogasification will
 be the correct choice  followed by termal
 cracking/gasification .Thus
 the energy input can be minized as  rapid
 bioconversion  is also the
 comercial process.
 Energy balance can  make the etanol process  less
 competitive related
 with natural gas compression , which is simple , can
 be  built easily 
 with  suatianble coproducts. The the effluents is
 rich  2 time in
 protein  as  animal feed can be  much more
 sustainable  to prevent
 polution
 
 sd
 Panniselvam P V
 
 On 7/9/05, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  Robert mentioned his concern over the masses of
 animal waste
  pouring into the rivers. I found these articles
 showing how in N
  Carolina they are starting to make pig waste into
 ethanol. Has
  anyone researched this area?
  Marilyn
  
  
 

http://mark.asci.ncsu.edu/SwineReports/2001/03manbrett.htm
  
  Formation of Fuel-Grade Ethanol
  from Swine Waste via Gasification
  
  B. Kaspers, J. Koger, R. Gould[1], A. Wossink[2],
 R. Edens[2],
  and T. van Kempen
  
  Summary
  The objective of this project is to investigate
 the application of
  gasification technologies to the treatment of
 swine waste for the
  ultimate production of fuel-grade ethanol.  This
 waste treatment
  system would reduce the negative environmental
 impact of
  current manure management systems.  The research
 objectives
  are: 1) to develop and test a system for
 harvesting swine manure
  in a form dry enough to be used as a gasification
 feedstock, 2) to
  establish the feasibility and the gasification
 conditions for the
  swine waste/amendments feedstock, 3) to
 characterize the end
  products of gasification (ethanol and mineral ash)
 and their
  potential markets, and 4) to conduct a rigorous
 economic
  analysis on the entire swine manure management
 model to
  determine its feasibility along with the factors
 that promote or
  impede its implementation.
  
  Introduction
  Ethanol production (primarily via fermentative
 methods) from
  crops and other renewable biomass sources has
 received
  much attention recently, but the current approach
 has problems.
  Mainly, crop-based feedstocks are subject to
 seasonal
  fluctuations in supply, ultimately limiting
 ethanol generation.
  Such feedstocks necessitate either lengthy storage
 of the
  perishable plant materials or stopping ethanol
 production
  altogether during the off-season.  Another dilemma
 faced is that
  some of the feedstocks currently used in ethanol
 production (e.g.
  corn stubble) have a greater value elsewhere (e.g.
 fertilizer).
  More specifically, the energy cost in harvesting
 these feedstocks
  (e.g. corn stubble) as well as their lost value as
 soil
  amendments makes ethanol production costly to
 farmers
  (Pimental, 1992). Animal manures avoid many of
 these
  problems because they are a truly renewable
 feedstock.
  
  The quantity of swine manure produced in the U.S,
 estimated at
  5 billion kg dry matter per year, is sufficient to
 contribute
  substantially to ethanol supplies.  Assuming a
 conversion
  efficiency of 40%, there is a theoretical ethanol
 yield of 500
  million gallons per year.  North Carolina is the
 second largest
  hog-producing state within the U.S. with a swine
 population
  large enough for gasification technology to be
 feasible.  Thus,
  ethanol production of 80 million gallons per year
 should
  theoretically be attainable. The most recent RFA
 (Renewable
  Fuels Association) Ethanol Report (May 11, 2000)
 concludes that
  replacing corn with less expensive feedstocks will
 result in
  substantial reductions in ethanol production
 costs.
  
  Gasification of biomass has received much
 attention as a
  means to convert waste materials to a variety of
 energy forms
  (i.e. electricity, combustible gases, synfuels,
 various fuel
  alcohols, etc.).  Gasification is a two-step,
 endothermic process
  in which solid fuel is thermochemically converted
 into a low or
  medium Btu gas.  Pyrolysis (Step 1) of the biomass
 is followed
  by either direct or indirect oxygen-deprived
 combustion (Step 2)
  during the gasification process.  This process
 converts raw
  biomass into a combustible gas, retaining 60-70 %
 of the
  feedstock's original energy content.  Thermochem's
 steam
  reformer is the system we are investigating to
 gasify our
  feedstock because this type of gasifier produces a
  hydrogen-rich, medium-Btu fuel gas.  This gasifier
 design
  percolates superheated steam through an indirectly
 heated inert
  fluidized bed of sand or a mineral material.  The
 organic
  feedstock injected into the bed undergoes a rapid
 sequence of
  pyrolysis and vaporization reactions.  Higher
 hydrocarbons
  released among the pyrolysis

RE: [Biofuel] Hybrid Diesel

2005-07-11 Thread James G. Branaum

Federal law DOES provide for job security in very specific circumstances.
However, they are not general or all inclusive.  I think Germany went down
that path with disastrous results.  Jobs seem to be for life, regardless of
skill or effort not spent in employers behalf.  I am pretty sure Japan was
on that path and realized it had bad end results in their last economic
downturn.

  

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of John Hayes
Sent: Monday, July 11, 2005 10:19 AM
To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Hybrid Diesel




[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 earl, i'm not familiar with any federal laws protecting workers, except
for 
 anti-discrimination laws.  if you're referring to more than that, please 
 enlighten me.

Chris are you serious? I can think of plenty of federal protection for 
workers off the top of my head.

a) minimum wage
b) overtime rules (40 hr work week for hourly employees)
c) OSHA
d) EPA
e) NLRB
f) maternity/paternity leave
g) child labor laws

You may think worker protection doesn't go far enough but we're 
certainly not talking about the grossly unregulated laissez faire 
capitalism that made unions so necessary at the turn of the *least* 
century. Children don't work in textile mills. Miners don't work 12 hr 
shifts 6 days a week.

Given these protections, the benefits of unionization are far less 
compelling than in the past. Given the drawbacks: dues, seniority over 
merit, inability to cut deadwood, inability to negotiate an individual 
contract, it isn't suprising that union membership has steadily declined 
over the past several decades.

 as fro state laws, don't be fooled by what you found in PA.  many states
have 
 very poor worker protections.  for example, employers in many states can
fire 
 an employee for virtually any reason, because they are not required to
have 
 one.  so although it might be illegal for a company to fire someone for,
say, 
 refusing to commit a crime, they can still fire you without justification.


Tthis is called At-will employment and is the norm under US law unless 
your contract explicitly stipulates otherwise. However, all states also 
have common law exception to the at-will rule for retaliatory discharge; 
if an employer fires you for refusing to commit a criminal act, they are 
legally accountable. But yes, barring whistle-blower retaliation, a US 
employer can typically fire an employee without cause as is required in 
some other countries.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/At_will_employment
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/At-will_employment

(wikipedia has two different pages on this topic)

I assume from your comments that you think federal labor laws should 
provide some job security provisions?




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Re: [Biofuel] give up meat?

yo, i think you're over-reacting a bit.  and you're dragging in something 
which is barely relevant.  no one's talking about severe or extreme 
malnutrition. 
i wouldn't expect to ever meet someone here who suffered from K because there 
are very few people here who don't eat meat.

there are a decent number of vegetarians in the u.s.a., but many of these 
self-proclaimed  vegetarians in fact eat dairy, cheese, and on occasion even 
chicken, turkey and fish.  those who do follow a truly vegetarian regime, 
educate 
themselves to do so correctly or don't do it for very long.

we don't need links pointing us to issues which are tangential at best. 
please give us a link related to the debunking of the need for food sources of 
all 
the essential amino acids.  i've never heard anything along these lines.  i'd 
recommend for your part taking a look at this link:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Essential_amino_acid

-chris b.

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Re: [Biofuel] ethanol from animal waste

2005-07-11 Thread marilyn

The message I sent was truncated so it did not include the 
following contact info at the end:

Ethanol Producer Magazine
308 2nd Ave. North Suite 304
Grand Forks, ND 58203
(701)746-8385
Fax:(701)746-5367
Voice Toll Free: 866-746-8385

Also, one of the authors of the article at the university in NC has 
the following contact info:

Dr. Theo A. van Kempen
Assistant Professor
Swine Nutrition and Nutrient Management
Extension | Research
Ph: 919-515-4016 | Fax: 919-515-7780 | E-mail: 
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

These should help lead you to the info you want.
Gook luck
Marilyn



Biofuel@sustainablelists.org wrote:
I live in an area that has large numbers of dairy
farms. Does anyone know If this is possible with dairy
cattle waste?

Thanks, Steve



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Re: Fwd: [Biofuel] give up meat?

2005-07-11 Thread bob allen


howdy chris,

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
not just grains, but *whole* grains.  beans and *whole* grains. 


 We could actually take the discussion further to stipulate _properly 
processed_ whole grains.   Corn meal should be processed with alkali 
(masa harina) as I recall to to make the thiamin more absorbable, as one 
example.




However I was referring to issues of amino acid composition, which isn't 
greatly impacted by milling of the seed coat.  Granted whole grains are 
good for fiber, minerals and vitamin content, but something like 80 
percent of the protein content of grains is in the endosperm.





 and even
then only certain combinations. 



I went looking for amino acid composition tables of beans and grains, 
and could not find any table where an essential amino acid was entirely 
missing from a bean or grain of any kind.  By combining beans (low in 
methionine, and threonine?) with grains (low in lysine) one comes up 
with an efficient diet.  As I see it one could live on a diet of one OR 
the other. It would however be expensive so to speak.  To get sufficient 
lysine for example from a diet of corn would require eating a lot more 
total protein to get the necessary amount of lysine.  The other amino 
acids in the diet in excess of the necessary amounts would just be 
burned up as calories. And those are expensive calories.  Plus the total 
load of calories from all the carbohydrate would tend to produce obesity 
I would think.



other traditional dishes:

tofu and rice
bean burritos
peanutbutter sandwich


 not all beans will complete the amino acid set
when combined with brown rice.  of course, there are still more grains that 
those beans might be combined with, but i personally don't know of any.


hum, I don't don't know of any that can't




have you verified the protein content of the beans and cornbread combination 
your father so liked? 


only anecdotally.


 i wouldn't have expected it to fit the bill based on

what i know.



the only thing I can think of to confound my assumptions would be issues 
of bioavailablilty, digestion and absorption, but not of amino acid 
composition.


toodles


--
Bob Allen
http://ozarker.org/bob

Science is what we have learned about how to keep
from fooling ourselves — Richard Feynman

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Re: [Biofuel] give up meat?


Hi all

I think vegetarians have to ask the same question of vegetables I 
asked about meat: Which particular cow is that? How was it raised, 
what did it eat? Or chicken or pig or sheep.


A single cabbage can contain more pesticide residues than an entire 
cow - there's stuff in it that shouldn't be there and you don't want 
to eat it, and the stuff that should be there often isn't.


For instance...

Effect of Agricultural Methods on Nutritional Quality: A Comparison 
of Organic with Conventional Crops, Virginia Worthington MS, ScD, 
CNS, Johns Hopkins University, Baltimore, 1998, Alternative 
Therapies, Volume 4, 1998, pages 58-69 -- Virginia Worthington 
reviewed available research comparing the nutritional value of 
organically grown and conventionally grown produce. She concluded 
that organic produce is nutritionally superior. She compared the 
composition of vegetables grown simultaneously under different 
farming conditions, conducting 41 studies with 1,240 comparisons of 
35 vitamins and minerals. Organically grown produce was higher in 
most minerals and vitamins and lower in potentially harmful nitrates, 
which result from nitrogen fertilizers. The greatest differences 
among all vegetables tested were in magnesium (organic was 29% 
higher), vitamin C (27% higher), and iron (21% higher). In fact, 
organic food had higher amounts of all minerals tested, although the 
difference was not always statistically significant because of small 
sample numbers. Organic crops had 15% fewer nitrates than 
conventionally grown foods and lesser amounts of toxic heavy metals. 
Worthington also investigated the effect of routine consumption of 
organically grown fruits and vegetables on the nutritional adequacy 
of the overall diet. Using the USDA recommendation of five servings 
of fruits and vegetables a day, she determined that consuming 
organically grown produce might make the difference between a 
deficient and an adequate diet. See Is Organically Grown Food More 
Nutritious? Virginia Worthington, 1998 -- condensed version of 
Effect of Agricultural Methods on Nutritional Quality: A Comparison 
of Organic with Conventional Crops:

http://www.mindfully.org/Food/Organic-More-
Nutritious-WorthingtonNov01.htm
Nutrition and Biodynamics: Evidence for the Nutritional Superiority 
of Organic Crops, Virginia Worthington MS, ScD, CNS, Johns Hopkins 
University, Baltimore, July/August, 1999, Biodynamics v.224

http://www.mindfully.org/Food/Organic-Crops-Superior-WorthingtonJul99.htm
Nutritional Quality of Organic Versus Conventional Fruits, 
Vegetables, and Grains, Virginia Worthington, M.S., Sc.D., C.N.S., 
2001, Journal of Alternative and Complementary Medicine Volume 7, 
Number 2, pp. 161-173. Abstract:

http://haly.ingentaselect.com/vl=1370482/cl=23/nw=1/
rpsv/catchword/mal/10755535/v7n2/s7/p161
Full report (Acrobat file, 176 kb)

Organic Foods vs Supermarket Foods: Element Levels, by Bob L. Smith, 
1993, Journal of Applied Nutrition, Vol 45-1 -- Over a two-year 
period, organically and conventionally grown apples, potatoes, pears, 
wheat, and sweet corn were purchased in the western suburbs of 
Chicago and analyzed for mineral content. Four to 15 samples were 
taken for each food group. On a per-weight basis, average levels of 
essential minerals were much higher in the organically grown than in 
the conventionally grown food. The organically grown food averaged 
63% higher in calcium, 78% higher in chromium, 73% higher in iron, 
118% higher in magnesium, 178% higher in molybdenum, 91% higher in 
phosphorus, 125% higher in potassium and 60% higher in zinc. The 
organically raised food averaged 29% lower in mercury than the 
conventionally raised food. See Full report


Research by the Organic Advisory Service of the Organic Retailers  
Growers Association of Australia (ORGAA) compared nutrient content of 
organic and conventionally grown vegetables. Four vegetable 
varieties, tomatoes, beans, capsicums and silver beet, were grown on 
a certified organic farm using compost and soil regenerative 
techniques and were later analysed for vitamin and mineral elements. 
A similar range of vegetables grown conventionally was sampled and 
analysed from a supermarket. Results showed significant differences 
in mineral levels in favour of the organic produce. Calcium levels in 
some produce increased by eight times, potassium by ten times, 
magnesium by seven times and zinc by five times. See Food with 
Attitude, Permaculture International Journal (March-May 2000, No. 
74, ISSN 1037-8480), p.27.


Alex Jack, a health writer in Massachusetts, and Anne-Marie Mayer, a 
nutrition researcher in Britain (now at Cornell), separately compared 
government reports on the levels of vitamins and minerals in fresh 
food in the 1990s and from several decades ago. Both revealed 
significant declines in calcium and iron in a variety of raw fruits 
and vegetables. Each comparison also noted declines in other 
nutrients, including

[Biofuel] Deconstructing the Nuclear Power Myths


The Institute of Science in Society

Science Society Sustainability
http://www.i-sis.org.uk

ISIS Press Release 11/07/05

Deconstructing the Nuclear Power Myths

Peter Bunyard disposes of the argument for nuclear power: it is 
highly uneconomical, and the saving on greenhouse gas emissions 
negligible, if any, compared to a gas-fired electricity generating 
plant


Peter Bunyard will be speaking at 
http://www.i-sis.org.uk/SWCFA.phpSustainable World Conference, 
14-15 July 2005.


References to this article are posted on http://www.i- 
sis.org.uk/full/DTNPMFull.phpISIS members' website. 
http://www.i-sis.org.uk/members.phpDetails here


Limitations due to the quality of uranium ore

A critical point about the practicability of nuclear power to provide 
clean energy under global warming is the quality and grade of the 
uranium ore. The quality of uranium ore varies inversely with their 
availability on a logarithmic scale. The ores used at present, such 
as the carnotite ores in the United States have an uranium content of 
up to 0.2 per cent, and vast quantities of overlying rocks and 
subsoil have to be shifted to get to the 96,000 tonnes of 
uranium-containing rock and shale that will provide the fresh fuel 
for a one gigawatt reactor [1].


In addition, most of the ore is left behind as tailings with 
considerable quantities of radioactivity from thorium- 230, a 
daughter product of the radioactive decay of uranium. Thorium has a 
half-life of 77 000 years and decays into radium-226, which decays 
into the gas radon-222. All are potent carcinogens.


Fresh fuel for one reactor contains about 10 curies of radioactivity 
(27 curies equal 1012 becquerels, each of the latter being one 
radiation event per second.) The tailings corresponding to that 
contain 67 curies of radioactive material, much of it exposed to 
weathering and rain run-off. Radon gas has been found 1 000 miles 
from the mine tailings from where it originated. Uranium extraction 
has resulted in more than 6 billion tonnes of radioactive tailings, 
with significant impact on human health [2].


Once the fuel is used in a reactor, it becomes highly radioactive 
primarily because of fission products and the generation of the 
transuranics' such as neptunium and americium. At discharge from the 
reactor, a tonne of irradiated fuel from a PWR (pressurized water 
reactor such as in use at Sizewell) will contain more than 177 
million curies of radioactive substances, some admittedly 
short-lived, but all the more potent in the short term. Ten years 
later, the radioactivity has died away to about 405 000 curies and 
100 years on to 42 000 curies, therefore still 600 times more 
radioactive than the original material from which the fuel was 
derived [3].


Today's reactors, totalling 350 GW and providing about 3 per cent of 
the total energy used in the world, consume 60 000 tonnes of 
equivalent natural uranium, prior to enrichment. At that rate, 
economically recoverable reserves of uranium - about 10 million 
tonnes - would last less than 100 years. A worldwide nuclear 
programme of 1 000 nuclear reactors would consume the uranium within 
50 years, and if all the world's electricity, currently 60 exajoules 
(1018Joules) were generated by nuclear reactors, the uranium would 
last three years [4]. The prospect that the amount of economically 
recoverable uranium would limit a worldwide nuclear power programme 
was certainly appreciated by the United Kingdom Atomic Energy in its 
advocacy for the fast breeder reactor, which theoretically could 
increase the quantity of energy to be derived from uranium by a 
factor of 70 through converting non-fissile uranium-238 into 
plutonium-239.


In the Authority's journal [5], Donaldson, D.M., and Betteridge, G.E. 
stated that, for a nuclear contribution that expands continuously to 
about 50 per cent of demand, uranium resources are only adequate for 
about 45 years.


The earth's crust and oceans contain millions upon millions of tonnes 
of uranium. The average in the crust is 0.0004 per cent and in 
seawater 2 000 times more dilute. One identified resource, the 
Tennessee shales in the United States, have uranium concentrations of 
between 10 and 100 parts per million, therefore between 0.1 and 0.01 
per cent. Such low grade ore has little effective energy content as 
measured by the amount of electricity per unit mass of mined ore [6].


Below 50 parts per million, the energy extracted is no better than 
mining coal, assuming that the uranium is used in a once-through fuel 
cycle, and is not reprocessed, but is dumped in some long-term 
repository. Apart from the self-evident dangers of dissolving spent 
fuel in acid and keeping the bulk of radioactive waste in stainless 
steel tanks until a final disposal is found, reprocessing offers very 
little if at all in terms of energy gained through the extraction and 
re-use of uranium and plutonium in mixed oxide fuel (MOX) [7].


To date, nuclear power

Re: [Biofuel] Hybrid Diesel


In a message dated 7/11/05 9:19:46 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

 Chris are you serious? I can think of plenty of federal protection for 

workers off the top of my head.


a) minimum wage

b) overtime rules (40 hr work week for hourly employees)

c) OSHA

d) EPA

e) NLRB

f) maternity/paternity leave

g) child labor laws 

lol, okay, i deserved that for being too vague.  the only two listed, 
however, which are concrete and very clear to almost anyone, are (a) and (b).  
most 
people don't understand their rights under the rest of the items listed and 
they don't amount to much when, as i stated before, the employer has the kind 
of 
hire/fire power that at will (yes, i knew it was called that) allows.  and 
minimum wage is laughably inadequate.

those workers that can afford to risk termination because the boss sees them 
as a trouble-maker, are extremely few.  i say again, it is up to the worker to 
make the case that he/she was fired unjustly (e.g. for whiste-blowing; for 
refusing to engage in a unsafe work practice; for refusing to drive faster than 
the speed limit in order to expedite a delivery; etc.).  this process doesn't 
happen overnight, and isn't a sure bet either, if the employer is clever about 
how he/she goes about that which is being alleged.   besides, it's usually 
more pressing to find another job and restore the revenue stream.

i disagree about unions being less attractive because there are so many 
worker protections today.  much more significant is that most people are very 
cynical about unions for a whole range of reasons, including among other things 
the 
fact that they have been incrementally stripped of their effectiveness over 
the decades by employers who have learned to use loopholes in the law to their 
advantage.  and the fact that they have been so releltnlessly demonized it's 
almost taken for granted that the uniion leadership will be corrupt.  an image 
which is not entirely without foundation, but which has been exaggerated 
beyond all reason.

of course i don't suggest that employers not be able to fire their employees. 
 but there are still a lot of ways of extending protection to workers.  
requiring employers to give two weeks notice or two weeks severance (except in 
cases of theft; vandalism; assault), would be one.

-chris

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Re: [Biofuel] give up meat?


In a message dated 7/11/05 11:49:14 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

   We could actually take the discussion further to stipulate _properly 

processed_ whole grains.   Corn meal should be processed with alkali 

(masa harina) as I recall to to make the thiamin more absorbable, as one 

example. 

yes, this is what i was referring to in a previous post where i referred to 
corn being a source if prepared properly.  masa harina (masa de harina de maíz) 
is made from the large-grained mexican corn (not the same thing as hominy) 
which has been cooked in a lime (sometimes ash) bath.  though i seem to recall 
that the lime has a positive impact on the protein value as well, which is why 
i asked the cornbread question.  cornbread is made with the more common (here 
in the u.s.a.) yellow corn, isn't it?  and it's *doesn't* get the lime 
treatment, right?  i wouldn't want to assume it's nutritional content to be the 
same.

i may be mistaken about brown rice, but it has been my understanding that 
white rice does not make up for the essential amino acids which beans have in 
only small quantity.  it's been ages, though, since i've felt the need to 
consult 
a nutrition chart.

By combining beans (low in 

methionine, and threonine?) with grains (low in lysine) one comes up 

with an efficient diet.  As I see it one could live on a diet of one OR 

the other. It would however be expensive so to speak.  To get sufficient 

lysine for example from a diet of corn would require eating a lot more 

total protein to get the necessary amount of lysine.

discussing this topic in terms of the complete protein set is not 
semantically precise, but is a far more convenient way of expressing it and 
conveys the 
basic idea.  i've intentionally not gone in depth in this thread because i 
had the original poster in mind, not an in depth discussion.  just trying to 
point them in the general direction so they can investigate further on their 
own, 
which is what they should do if they want to learn it well (and they should 
learn something like nutrition well).


anyway, it's all good if we all learn a little something new (or unlearn 
certain equivocations!).

-chris

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[Biofuel] Direct Democracy League

2005-07-11 Thread Doug Younker

Prior to yesterday I hadn't heard of the Direct Democracy League, but I
found this http://www.ddleague-usa.net/ .  They have a lot of material to
digest and to be able to do so one  had better had retained their history
lessons or accept the DDL's accounting of history.   With my brief look I
noticed they really want to downplay democracy at it's worse is nothing more
than mob rule sentiment.
Doug

- Original Message - 
From: Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Sent: Sunday, July 10, 2005 2:43 PM
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Hybrid Diesel


: Hello Richard
:
: Anybody heard of the Direct Democracy League? What do you think of it?
:
: Not heard of them, but there are some previous discussions following
: a direct democracy initiative in Gibralter planned by list member
: James, you might find it interesting:
:
: http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/msg18457.html
: [biofuel] Direct Democracy
:
: The whole thread is linked at the end of the page.
:
: Best wishes
:
: Keith
:
:
: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED][EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
: 
: Unfortunately voting Libertarian had nothing to do with getting
: rid of these extreemists...
: 
:  mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED][EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
: 
: =
: Paddy,
:
: snip
:
:
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messages):
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:
:


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Re: [Biofuel] give up meat?

My point was more that it's not rocket science to live as a Vegan.  I 
did it for about a year and a half- nothing bad happened and I made no 
effort to combine anything. I was perfectly healthy, but I do remember 
being pretty hungry all the time.  Now I'm mostly ovo (not much lacto - 
I'm allergic) veggy but I do eat raw fish because I like it.
I also fall off the wagon more than occasionally.  I do try to eat only 
humanely raised grass-fed beef. 

or don't do it for very long. * I personally have never heard of 
anyone expiring due to an improper vegetarian diet.


please give us a link related to the debunking of the need for food sources of all 

the essential amino acids.  i've never heard anything along these lines.

*Sure, see below:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vegetarian_nutrition
http://www.all-creatures.org/mfz/myths-vegprotein-craze.html
http://michaelbluejay.com/veg/history.html
http://www.thenazareneway.com/diet/the_protein_myth.htm

I could go on and on...





[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

yo, i think you're over-reacting a bit.  and you're dragging in something 
which is barely relevant.  no one's talking about severe or extreme malnutrition. 
i wouldn't expect to ever meet someone here who suffered from K because there 
are very few people here who don't eat meat.


there are a decent number of vegetarians in the u.s.a., but many of these 
self-proclaimed  vegetarians in fact eat dairy, cheese, and on occasion even 
chicken, turkey and fish.  those who do follow a truly vegetarian regime, educate 
themselves to do so correctly or don't do it for very long.


we don't need links pointing us to issues which are tangential at best. 
please give us a link related to the debunking of the need for food sources of all 
the essential amino acids.  i've never heard anything along these lines.  i'd 
recommend for your part taking a look at this link:


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Essential_amino_acid

-chris b.

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Re: Re[4]: [Biofuel] Hybrid Diesel

2005-07-11 Thread KinsleyForPrez08


Gustl,

I have seen the same thing happen in my hometown of Bethlehem, PA.  The big 
steel company (Bethlehem Steel) closed down in the 90's after being in 
operation for almost 100 years.  Part of the blame rested with the greedy 
corporate management, and part with the greedy union leadership (I have had 
family members on both sides, plus those workers in between).


There was a time when the USWA was an important part of the community, 
fighting for workers rights.  That time is no more...


Thanks for the email.

Later,

Earl Kinsley
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
--
None are more hopelessly enslaved than those who falsely believe they are 
free.
-- Johann Wolfgang von Goethe 



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Re: [Biofuel] Pimentel is at it again