RE: [Biofuel] de-polymerizing cellulose not practical at this point
You would be farbetter to try and build a ranch community that didn't require heating other than that provided by the sun, there's a number of these sorts of projects going on, for cooling fan forced cooling via the concrete foundation slab is becoming more popular. this removes the excess heat from the building during the day, then releases it at night to help maintain a stable temperature. this costs pennies to the dollarcompared to traditional aircon / heat pumps. How ever there's nothing wrong with learning a new field =) Cheers, Bede. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] de-polymerizing cellulose not practical at this point
Helow Brain, Tom , Robert , Keith and every one As I am from academics side involved in this subject in our list with PHD thesis (IIT, Delhi, India in 1980) on enzymatic hydrolysis of bimass waste and following the research for the past 25 years in this area .After seeing remarkable break through in cellulase enzyme productivity and costs, now I am sure that the low energy path of depolymerization of cellulose using enzymes can be practical for distributed bioethanol made possible from paper and biomass wastes. Eventhouh acid hydrolysis is commercially proven technology , some physical and Biological pretreatment using fungi followed by the enzymatic hydrolysis using commercially available celluase enzyme , with reuse of enzymes can make possible practically depolymerize cellulose to higher yield , making also possible the simultaneous fermentation and depolimerization all this as well studied with higher yields too. However the problems are yet the low concentration of alcohol in the process and enzyme recovery yet not very high. With the use of solvent (caster oil ) alcohol and water as described her in the biofuel list archives can make possible to overcome the problems ina practical way and sub products ezymatically degraded ethanol soluble lignin can be used as an usfuel biofuel as lignin has higher calorific value.The mushroom process can make depolimerization in practical way as an effective pretreatment. This route is yet to be outined in detail in web page of http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Yet, Keith has some infomation , but not yet published in the web pages as this small biomass refinary not yet matured one but is developing fast one to be as this not only the acadamic , but also practical one for the very near future. Small Biomass refinery for biofuel production by rural farmer can bring food, feed , fuel,fertillizer in a decentralized way with more sustainabilty and peace to the world. I am sure that our biofuel list and the list members is the only global forum to make this path , transfer it global and make the difusion to all parts of the world who need it. Greeting to all Yours truely Pannirselvam Brasil On 8/13/05, Brian Rodgers [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Thank you Tom, Robert, and everyone for the fantastic feedback. I received an email from my Dad, the retired chemist. He suggests we move away from the idea of de-polymerizing cellulose as it seems out of our reach financially and technologically. I am happy to let the process of mycelium-rot to the fungi folks and let them see what they can do with it. Dad said he could find no serious research into cellulose breakdown by any of his friends at the university. Without the help of these academics, he believes we can not continue on our own. I told him we would continue to knock it around at the Biofuels email list. I will continue to pursue the ethanol angle, but I will stick to conventional methods of fermentation. For instance, I will explore the naturally occurring sugar plants. A friend came by the other day with wine made from prickly pears. Very potent drink with all the flavor a wine enthusiast can wish for. I will search for more locally available, naturally occurring, sugary feedstock to get my experiments going with fermentation. My next research project will be steam power. With more great info found through the vast wealth of knowledge at the Journey to Forever web site, I think it makes a lot of sense to burn the readily available waste wood as opposed to breaking it down in order to ferment it. I realize that the smoke is going to be a problem, so I am hoping with experience I gained building several wood burning heat stoves I can build an efficient fire box. It's weird, but the morning process around here is similar to the steam engine. As I work on my daily newsletter, ideas are slow to build up, gain momentum, albeit sloppy and sluggish, then the whistle blows, and I finally figure out what I want to write about. Then I have to read what I already have, edit out the erroneous filler that got me focused in the first place, and then I really get going, full steam ahead. I was talking with my older brother last night. I attempted to inspire him with my new plans for a steam powered ranch community. One massive, centrally located, wood fired boiler which easily converts waste wood to energy. Steam is routed to several households in close proximity. A nearby steam powered electric generator should be able to furnish enough power to run the entire ranch with power left over during non-peak electric use hours to sell back to the local Electric Co-Op. I still need to research the circuits needed to reverse power back through the meter. But this is well within my understanding, much more so than chemistry.
[Biofuel] wash problems resolved
My original message: I have pump-washed a 15L batch of biodiesel 7 times and the wash water is still milky. Does this indicate an incomplete reaction? Prior to washing I did a "shake test" and got clear separation with only a thin layer between the water and the biodiesel. Tom --- Thank you Keith and Todd for responding I followed your advise: stir wash the 15L batch instead of pump washing it. The first wash water came out a bit cloudy. The second was crystal clear. I have processed 4 more 15L batches . stir washed instead of pump washing. I used a paint stirrer on an electric drill at slow to moderate speed. I gave the first batch 5 minutes of stirring/wash. I reduced the stirring time on subsequent batches. The final batch was stirred only 1 minute/wash homogenize the mixture (15 20 seconds) + 40 45 seconds of additional stirring. Let the mix settle for 1 - 2 hours and drain off the wash water. The final wash should settle overnight (12 hrs)*. The wash water was clear after 3 4 washings. The biodiesel turned clear after a few days in the sun. * The final wash should settle for 12 hrs. The final wash will be clear. Ques: How do you know which will be the final wash? (Two of my batches took 3 washes including the one I stirred for only a minute - 2 of them took 4 washes). Is it simply a matter of experience? One advantage of stir washing is the time saved, but if one assumes that the 3rd wash will be the final one, lets it settle for 12hrs or more and then must do a 4th wash and let it settle for 12hrs, some of the advantage is compromised. Can an experienced producer look at the 2nd wash and know that the next wash will do it? From my notes: The batches that took 4 washes were allowed to settle for 1hour on each wash except the last The batches that took only 3 washes were allowed to settle for 2 or 3 hours on at least one of the 1st two washings. Is this just a coincidence, or is there an advantage to letting the mix settle longer after each wash? Thanks again. We beginners are fortunate to have a fountain of knowledge at our fingertips. Tom ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] de-polymerizing cellulose not practical at this point
Okally Dokally. Thank you for your concern. Twenty years ago part of my job at the local movie theatre was keeping all the machines in operation. This included maintaining an old natural gas boiler down in the dark nasty basement. This old dinosaur had been converted from coal to oil and then to natural gas during its roughly one hundred years in operation. The boiler system was a monstrosity. Feeding this beast was a four inch gas line. I was instructed by the theatre manager(my girlfriend) to flip the switch on and run. Yeah it was scary. Upon closer inspection, which I do with most machines, time permitting, I found several safety devices on the boiler. Im a natural born mechanic, not one to take everything apart, I enjoy understanding how things work using the book method. What became clear to me upon my first fact finding trip down in the dungeon, was that most of the safety devices had been bypassed. About the only circumstance which would shut this beast down was the pilot light blowing out or the water jacket bursting. The slaves as my lady called the ushers and projectionists were given good advice to run after lighting this thing. I had a regular job during the week. I was fresh out of college and working at my new profession at Computerland de Santa Fe, but the theatre was mostly night work so whenever I had the time I would go over each piece of antique equipment down at the theatre. The boiler was not nearly as intricate as the 35mm carbon arc projectors, but I felt right at home in the cellar. The boiler did have a massive brick firewall all around it and was sitting down in sort of a moat as well. I would like to have seen that boiler during the coal fired days. A hopper filled the firebox from a bin which was filled first from the alley. Thats the type of automation I like to see, Old World style mechanics. I put all of the safety relays and systems back on line by the time Winter kicked in. I shudder to think of the roughly 750 people sitting above that boiler watching a movie before I gave it the once-over twice. The only system I would leave to the experts is the gas controls, although I have a basic understanding of these devices as well. Plumbing and heating companies are the only way to go when it comes to gas heaters, especially when the feed-pipe is four inches in diameter. When the switch was flipped and the relays kicked open the gas valves, that boiler would roar. But anyway, I hope you dont mind that my way of thinking nowadays is to write it down. Writing helps me focus on what I want to think about. I have found that like-minded people enjoy hearing how things work from an expert mechanics point of view. Sorry I dont mean to sound arrogant. But people that truly understand machines are few and far between. I have spent my life as an outsider more interested in machines than the people around me. Now that I have matured a bit (Im over fifty) I am putting most of my attention and energy into family and friends. So, yeah boilers are right up my alley as are pretty much any machines. The thrust of my research here has been to find a way to use small diameter trees. These are choking the forests in the Southwest United States and creating a wildfire problem. Arizona and New Mexico have been in the news these last few years as hundreds of thousands of acres of forest land have burned. I dont know if you heard it on the news several years ago the US Forest Service with the help of the Park Service burned the town of Los Alamos damn near to the ground. Yeah the birth place of the atom bomb is just over the Sangre de Christo Mountains. I always feel comforted that there is a 10,000 foot high mountain range separating our ranch from Los Alamos National Labs. The USFS was practicing a policy known as a controlled burn when the blaze got out of hand and burned half the homes in the town of Los Alamos, NM and thousands of acres besides. For me, since I am not much of a humanitarian, the loss of homes is less important than the loss of forestland. I especially dislike that yuppies feel the need to build their expensive homes in the forest. Nobody was hurt in the Los Alamos controlled burn by the way. Most people that live in what is now called the forest interface were warned to thin the tress around homes. Of course they dont want to do this because they think it would defeat their main purpose of living in the forest. I live in the forest I should add. Our family has lived here for thirty plus years during which we have actively manicured our roughly one hundred and fifty acres of forest land. One of the really scary results of the wildfires in the Southwest US is a recent policy of designating basins above reservoirs as water-shed areas. I have taken several tours of these nearby monstrosities. Apparently, the principal idea is that the trees get in the way of the limited rainfall running off into the reservoirs. Combine that fact with all the yuppies losing their condos in
Re: [Biofuel] de-polymerizing cellulose not practical at this point
Brian- I'm new to the list and might reply to the group if I knew how. It sounds like your Pop is a good guy to know, especially since mine never got past eighth grade, but in some ways he was pretty smart too. One of the things he recommended was to get off the farm and stay there. My brothers did, and they made money and are still drinking it up. I had to be a grunt, failed, and had to go back to the farm for survival. I did get a forestry degree a few years back and now laugh to myself when I say I am a consultant. The present reality (although it might hopefully change) is that due to the high (IMHO) energy inputs, low value wood has no current uses that can make much money. But,and here's the big BUT, a review of history suggests to me a slightly different possible scenario. In that light, looking at the history of europe and asia, much environmental degradation has taken place, and I suggest for the same reason-energy. In my current situation, buying straw for bedding is impossible, but I have a glut of pine needles to rake up (like the leaves of forests in the dark ages). I can't afford steel,lumber or concrete, but I can build with sandstone andcordwood using chopped branches mixed with clay as a binder (cob). I can sell my hickoryand still heat my shack with the left over trash. Forest depletion then, can result again, and I might add, for the same reason-no-money, and thus no energy. If you read up on making charcoal, one glaring fact seems to stand out, and that is the loss of energy in producing it. I maintain that it is NOT lost, it is altered in a way that is not currently able to be captured. I suggest you read up on what is termed "the indirect method", in short it is heating the wood mass high enough to drive out the water, volitiles, and tars, with charcoal as the residual fuel. This process has two components. The first (heating the wood) takes heat (I use the branches), off-gassing (and burning the smoke) is highly exothermic and extremely clean-burning. Last winter, I built two 50gal drum-sized units from one of the plans on the net and put them inside the garage thinking it might help with the heat and found out that it really didn't. Not because heat wasn't produced, rather because I had to open all the doors and turn on the fans and blow the heat outside because I had too much. This, in a relatively cold Wisconsin winter. In forestry terms, this lets me use the entire tree less the roots, and as such, I use only low value trees which are by far more abundant and even then I am not required to cut near as many. Yesterday, I did a long read about the kalle charcoal gasifier and have read a lot of others before. This is an old technology that is well known to work. You give me the impression that it might be better to "just burn the wood" and I tend to agree. However, there seems, at least to me,to be a missing link somewhere. Like one to use the excess heat from the off-gassing of charcoal production for the distillation of ethanol, electricty production, and home heating/cooling/cooking. The nuts (maybe me) and bolts of the matter are beyond me, but maybe not your Pop. So, this e-mail is really a request for any knowledge he might posess on the subject and some sort of reply from you (+or-) on what you can dig up. Thanks Dale Original Message - From: Brian Rodgers To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2005 6:51 PM Subject: [Biofuel] de-polymerizing cellulose not practical at this point Thank you Tom, Robert, and everyone for the fantastic feedback. !--[if !supportEmptyParas]--!--[endif]-- I received an email from my Dad, the retired chemist. He suggests we move away from the idea of de-polymerizing cellulose as it seems out of our reach financially and technologically. I am happy to let the process of mycelium-rot to the fungi folks and let them see what they can do with it. Dad said he could find no serious research into cellulose breakdown by any of his friends at the university. Without the help of these academics, he believes we can not continue on our own. I told him we would continue to knock it around at the Biofuels email list. !--[if !supportEmptyParas]--!--[endif]-- !--[if !supportLineBreakNewLine]--!--[endif]-- I will continue to pursue the ethanol angle, but I will stick to conventional methods of fermentation. For instance, I will explore the naturally occurring sugar plants. A friend came by the other day
Re: [Biofuel] de-polymerizing cellulose not practical at this point
Hi Brian, Why not use the cellulose and convert it to methane using anerobic fermentation. The residue is fertilizer and the products are CO2 and methane gas. One glucose molecule gives you 3 parts methane and 3 parts(molecules) CO2. Burn the methane directly in the generator. Separating the methane from co2 should not be too difficult since CO2 is water soluble and methane is not. Cow dung has all the appropriate enzymes for the breakdown and its cheap. Hal --- Brian Rodgers [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: - Thank you Tom, Robert, andeveryone for the fantastic feedback. I received an email from myDad, the retired chemist. He suggests we move away from the idea ofde-polymerizing cellulose as it seems out of our reach financially andtechnologically. I am happy to let the process of mycelium-rotto the fungi folks and let them see whatthey can do with it. Dad said he could find no serious research intocellulosebreakdown by any of his friends at the university. Without the help oftheseacademics, he believes we can not continue on our own. I told him wewouldcontinue to knock it around at the Biofuels email list. I will continue to pursue theethanol angle, but I will stick to conventional methods offermentation.For instance, I will explore the naturally occurring sugar plants. Afriendcame by the other day with wine made from prickly pears. Very potentdrink withall the flavor a wine enthusiast can wish for. I will search for morelocallyavailable, naturally occurring, sugary feedstock to get my experimentsgoing withfermentation. My next research project willbe steam power. With more great info found through thevast wealth of knowledge at theJourney to Forever web site, I think it makes a lot of sense to burnthe readily available waste wood asopposed to breaking it down in order to ferment it. I realize that thesmoke isgoing to be a problem, so I am hoping with experience I gainedbuildingseveral wood burning heat stoves I can build an efficientfire box. Its weird, but the morningprocess around here is similar to the steam engine. As I work on mydailynewsletter, ideas are slow to build up, gain momentum, albeit sloppyandsluggish, then the whistle blows, and I finally figure out what I wantto writeabout. Then I have to read what I already have, edit out the erroneousfiller that got me focused in the first place, and then I really getgoing,full steam ahead. I was talkingwith my older brother last night. I attempted to inspire him with mynew plansfor a steam powered ranch community. One massive, centrally located,wood firedboiler which easily converts waste wood to energy. Steam is routed toseveralhouseholds in close proximity. A nearby steam powered electricgenerator shouldbe able to furnish enough power to run the entire ranch with power leftoverduring non-peak electric use hours to sell back to the local ElectricCo-Op. Istill need to research the circuits needed to reverse power backthrough themeter. But this is well within my understanding, much more so thanchemistry. Sincerely, BrianRodgers ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
[Biofuel] County considering GM food
Hi everyone, My Santa Cruz, California county is considering outlawing genetically modified food in the county. I have downloaded a lot of info on the subject from your emails to share with them. Does anyone have anything that can help regarding how people have successfully made it illegal in other cities and counties? We need all the help we can get. Thanks Marilyn ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
RE: [Biofuel] The New Blue States/Country
Tim, This is not really the question form and maybe many others. It is not the question of that US is engaged, it is the way US does it and traditionally did it. It is immoral to support activities by their corporations, that are not up to their standards and laws for US at home. It is not morally justifiable to support oppressive regimes, in order to support US financial interests. We can only mention The Shah of Iran, Pinochet, Saddam Hussein, etc. as a few of a long list that were helped to power and then maintained by US. Iraq is the result of a misunderstanding, Saddam Hussein asked for the US permission to invade Kuweit and thought that he got it. Hakan At 02:45 14/08/2005, you wrote: There seems to be general agreement on this list that the U.S. should avoid foreign entanglements, at least when it comes to some of the uglier tenets of foreign policy. Shouldn't we be just as concerned about so called benevolent tenets as well? Even feeding and clothing the oppressed will upset the oppressors. Perhaps what a foreign entanglement refers to is a personal decision driven by that person's views toward any one particular governmental involvement? Tim Schlueter St. Louis From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] on behalf of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Fri 8/12/2005 11:45 PM To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel] The New Blue States/Country Mike, Where do I start? First, I have a real problem with any government (U.S., state, local) taking my hard earned money (in the form of taxes) and redistributing it to others. Now, there are legitimate things that each of these levels of government can spend taxpayer dollars on, namely, those outlined in their constitution or charter. In the case of the U.S. Government, these include national defense (not necessarily offense, though), minting currency, postal services, etc. When the U.S. Government (or perhaps the state governments) start spending my money outside the bounds of the Constitution, it is no longer legit. I would like to see Congress try and pass an Amendment to allow giving loans to foreign nations and never expecting repayment of those loans. How much support do you think they would get from the populace? Second, some people may consider giving funds or supplies to help poorer nations or refugee groups as charity, which it is. But charity is you or I freely donating my money to others for the purpose of helping those in need. I have given money to help victims of 9-11, I have helped feed the homeless in soup kitchens, I have given my old clothing and furniture to Goodwill, Salvation Army, etc. Governments, such as our federal government, do not own the money they give to others - the money belongs to the taxpayers (and bond holders) who provide the money. How can the U.S. Government consider giving money to poor African countries as charity, when it isn't their money to give? As I mentioned previously, if the U.S. Government would stop taking my hard earned money and donating away, perhaps I would have more money that I could freely give to organizations like the Red Cross (this is only one example, there are others) as charity. Third, the idea of giving for the sake of giving is lost on most politicians. Inside the Beltway, a politician's power is measured by his or her ability to fundraise - accepting money from some generous sole to support some Cause of the day. Have you ever met a political donor that didn't expect something in return? The President and Congress are just as guilty of wanting something in return for helping other nations. How much money have they pumped into the poorer nations of the Iraq War Coalition? Socialism and true communism may have its value to some and will thrive in some places of the world, but I prefer not to live under it. Or at least, if I have to, please call it as such - The Socialist Unoin of America. The same goes for the United Nations. Thanks for the opportunity to explain myself. Earl. - Original Message - From: Michael Redler mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Wednesday, August 10, 2005 4:35 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] The New Blue States/Country Earl, Earl wrote: It seems to me that be requiring wealthy nations to donate any portion of their GDP is just another form of socialism, except on a global scale. Giving it a name (i.e. socialism or ...ism), doesn't explain why you disagree. Please include something to support your position. There are people in this list who (despite McCarthy's legacy) understand the value of socialism and even communism (not to be confused with Stalin's mislabeled brand of fascism) as a theoretical model for democracy. Mike From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Re: [Biofuel] de-polymerizing cellulose not practical at this point
brian, i would seriously encourage you to look into a solar rather than wood power to run your boiler. i don't know the capabilities or limitations of solar boilers, but i know they're out there and your location, well, isn't that kind of like solar paradise? battery banks can provide your energy needs at night, perhaps augmented by a small biod (or wvo or ethanol) generator for any individual structure that might have higher power requirements on occasion. in fact, i expect the solar boiler itself could be augmented with wood power, either to boost total power output or to extend total generating hours. your firebox could probably be a lot smaller, and designed for quick loading in the early a.m. hours; before the solar heat starts to get too intense. you probably wouldn't need the wood power at all a lot of the time, so you'd save a lot of work as far as keeping the firebox full, maintaining your fuel supply, and so on. also, it can be more efficient to look at all the different power needs you're looking to meet. for example, odds are certain outbuildings can easily be powered with a small pv/battery or wind/battery setup. and where the power use is greater, smaller, individual solar (or wood or wood/solar) boilers might be more efficient. using the hot water to heat your home at night is more efficient this way as well. not to mention wind turbines. there a plethora of DIY wind turbine projects to be found on the web. it's surprising how easy they are. one or two people could fabricate and install a pretty powerful one as a weekend project. you can also make the project much lower-impact if you wanted, since a good deal of the work consists of small tasks that can be done individually whenever you have a spare moment or two. my main point is, to really try and go non-carbon. the alternatives are there and totally viable. you can be no less energy-independent than with wood or biofuels, and still generate excess capacity. it might be a little more work up front, but in the long run should require much less. on another note, prickly pear fruit is extremely nutritous. you're better off eating it than converting it. -chris b. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
RE: [Biofuel] The New Blue States/Country
There may have been a misunderstanding in Baghdad. I suspect that the people in Washington knew exactly what they were doing. Doug Woodard St. Catharines, Ontario On Sun, 14 Aug 2005, Hakan Falk wrote: Iraq is the result of a misunderstanding, Saddam Hussein asked for the US permission to invade Kuweit and thought that he got it. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re[2]: [Biofuel] The New Blue States/Country
Hallo Doug, Sunday, 14 August, 2005, 16:42:09, you wrote: dbo There may have been a misunderstanding in Baghdad. I suspect that the dbo people in Washington knew exactly what they were doing. dbo Doug Woodard dbo St. Catharines, Ontario There is no suspect about it. I heard the US ambassador tell Iraqi government officials that the US had no interest in the issue at all. Twice. Seems that many people who also saw that on the US news have conveniently forgotten it. Our government suckered Iraq in order to invade. Period.Washington was fully cognizant of Iraq's intentions and lied in order to have an excuse to invade. Twice now we have done similar things. Happy Happy, Gustl dbo On Sun, 14 Aug 2005, Hakan Falk wrote: Iraq is the result of a misunderstanding, Saddam Hussein asked for the US permission to invade Kuweit and thought that he got it. -- Je mehr wir haben, desto mehr fordert Gott von uns. We can't change the winds but we can adjust our sails. The safest road to Hell is the gradual one - the gentle slope, soft underfoot, without sudden turnings, without milestones, without signposts. C. S. Lewis, The Screwtape Letters Es gibt Wahrheiten, die so sehr auf der Straße liegen, daß sie gerade deshalb von der gewöhnlichen Welt nicht gesehen oder wenigstens nicht erkannt werden. Those who dance are considered insane by those who can't hear the music. George Carlin The best portion of a good man's life - His little, nameless, unremembered acts of kindness and of love. William Wordsworth ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] County considering GM food
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi everyone, My Santa Cruz, California county is considering outlawing genetically modified food in the county. I have downloaded a lot of info on the subject from your emails to share with them. Does anyone have anything that can help regarding how people have successfully made it illegal in other cities and counties? We need all the help we can get. Thanks Marilyn ___ Marilyn, Yikes am I out of touch! To outlaw growing it or selling it? Both? I dont know if CCOF (California Organic Farmers) would have some material possibly, though you may have looked already. It would be kinda fun to see a few dozen monsanto lawyers skulking in and out of city hall. I must read the paper more often. S. Chapin Corralitos Creek Gardens ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: Re[2]: [Biofuel] The New Blue States/Country
I read that G Bush Sr. did not plan to invade Iraq over Kuwait until he met with Maggie Thatcher and she told him how her popularity soared after the war she waged in the Faulklands, and this made him rethink his response to Saddam invading Kuwait. Is there any truth to this? Marilyn dbo There may have been a misunderstanding in Baghdad. I suspect that the dbo people in Washington knew exactly what they were doing. dbo Doug Woodard dbo St. Catharines, Ontario There is no suspect about it. I heard the US ambassador tell Iraqi government officials that the US had no interest in the issue at all. Twice. Seems that many people who also saw that on the US news have conveniently forgotten it. Our government suckered Iraq in order to invade. Period.Washington was fully cognizant of Iraq's intentions and lied in order to have an excuse to invade. Twice now we have done similar things. Happy Happy, Gustl dbo On Sun, 14 Aug 2005, Hakan Falk wrote: Iraq is the result of a misunderstanding, Saddam Hussein asked for the US permission to invade Kuweit and thought that he got it. -- Je mehr wir haben, desto mehr fordert Gott von uns. We can't change the winds but we can adjust our sails. The safest road to Hell is the gradual one - the gentle slope, soft underfoot, without sudden turnings, without milestones, without signposts. C. S. Lewis, The Screwtape Letters Es gibt Wahrheiten, die so sehr auf der Straße liegen, daß sie gerade deshalb von der gewöhnlichen Welt nicht gesehen oder wenigstens nicht erkannt werden. Those who dance are considered insane by those who can't hear the music. George Carlin The best portion of a good man's life - His little, nameless, unremembered acts of kindness and of love. William Wordsworth ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainableli sts.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] de-polymerizing cellulose not practical at this point
Brian Rodgers wrote: Thank you for your concern. You're welcome! I think I have a better grasp of your aptitude at this point. Even if you ARE comfortable with boilers, I suggest you join a Live Steam group and spend some time with people, like you, who understand machines. Skip Goebel, who lives in Missouri, is probably the most knowledgeable person I'm aware of when it comes to steam, but he's HAD IT with people who are interested in renewable energy. (Fruitcakes and dreamers-- people like me!) His equipment is up for sale right now, but don't talk to him unless you have money and the willingness to spend it! http://www.sensiblesteam.net/ He's got complete systems he's trying to unload that range in price from $5 000 all the way up to $25 000. The thrust of my research here has been to find a way to use small diameter trees. These are choking the forests in the Southwest United States and creating a wildfire problem. I'm from the Southwest, and I know exactly what you're talking about. Wood fired steam power represents an excellent way to cogenerate, IF you can use all that extra heat. The 480 watt system I built with my students burned about 5 1 / 2 kilos of wood every HOUR. This would solve your small diameter tree problem in a hurry, especially since most of the timber growing in the Southwest consists of lightweight pine and fir species. However, it would also create a huge amount of waste heat. This is where the integration of distillation for fuel, mash cooking, AFEX cellulose pretreatment and other heat intensive processes for ethanol production dovetail nicely into a well designed system. Most people that live in what is now called the ‘forest interface’ were warned to thin the tress around homes. Of course they don’t want to do this because they think it would defeat their main purpose of living in the forest. Disaster will befall anyone who does not take care to reduce the fuel load on their property in fire prone areas. When I lived in the dry interior of British Columbia, my neighbors didn't understand why I took the time to keep wild grasses cut short around my home. They scratched their heads when I collected dead fall. Three years ago, however, when wildfire swept through the Okanagan region, only those properties with a defensible perimeter and secure water storage survived. What we now have is hyper-wildfire conditions with all that fuel on the ground! Sigh . . . I've seen all of this before . . . robert luis rabello The Edge of Justice Adventure for Your Mind http://www.newadventure.ca Ranger Supercharger Project Page http://www.members.shaw.ca/rabello/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] de-polymerizing cellulose not practical at this point
Hi Brian, You have another option with steam. It will break down on its ownhemicelluloses under pressure. And if a catalyst is present celluloses also, in yields depending on amounts present. I think you could use acids or alkalis as catalysts. You could use undigested lignin as boiler fuel. Boilers are 'the workhorses' of industry aren't they. If you have lots of wood to be culled why not change it to electric power into the grid. Just a thought. Cheers.Brian Rodgers [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Okally Dokally. Thank you for your concern.Twenty years ago part of my job at the local movie theatre was keeping all the machines in operation. This included maintaining an old natural gas boiler down in the dark nasty basement. This old dinosaur had been converted from coal to oil and then to natural gas during its roughly one hundred years in operation. The boiler system was a monstrosity. Feeding this beast was a four inch gas line. I was instructed by the theatre manager(my girlfriend) to flip the switch on and run. Yeah it was scary. Upon closer inspection, which I do with most machines, time permitting, I found several safety devices on the boiler. Im a natural born mechanic, not one to take everything apart, I enjoy understanding how things work using the book method. What became clear to me upon my first fact finding trip down in the dungeon, was that most of the safety devices had been bypassed. About the only circumstance which would shut this beast down was the pilot light blowing out or the water jacket bursting. The slaves as my lady called the ushers and projectionists were given good advice to run after lighting this thing. !--[if !supportEmptyParas]--!--[endif]-- I had a regular job during the week. I was fresh out of college and working at my new profession at Computerland de Santa Fe, but the theatre was mostly night work so whenever I had the time I would go over each piece of antique equipment down at the theatre. The boiler was not nearly as intricate as the 35mm carbon arc projectors, but I felt right at home in the cellar. The boiler did have a massive brick firewall all around it and was sitting down in sort of a moat as well. I would like to have seen that boiler during the coal fired days. A hopper filled the firebox from a bin which was filled first from the alley. Thats the type of automation I like to see, Old World style mechanics. I put all of the safety relays and systems back on line by the time Winter kicked in. I shudder to think of the roughly 750 people sitting above that boiler watching a movie before I gave it the once-over twice. The only system I would leave to the experts is the gas controls, although I have a basic understanding of these devices as well. Plumbing and heating companies are the only way to go when it comes to gas heaters, especially when the feed-pipe is four inches in diameter. When the switch was flipped and the relays kicked open the gas valves, that boiler would roar. !--[if !supportEmptyParas]--!--[endif]-- But anyway, I hope you dont mind that my way of thinking nowadays is to write it down. Writing helps me focus on what I want to think about. I have found that like-minded people enjoy hearing how things work from an expert mechanics point of view. Sorry I dont mean to sound arrogant. But people that truly understand machines are few and far between. I have spent my life as an outsider more interested in machines than the people around me. Now that I have matured a bit (Im over fifty) I am putting most of my attention and energy into family and friends. So, yeah boilers are right up my alley as are pretty much any machines. !--[if !supportEmptyParas]--!--[endif]-- The thrust of my research here has been to find a way to use small diameter trees. These are choking the forests in the Southwest United States and creating a wildfire problem. Arizona and New Mexico have been in the news these last few years as hundreds of thousands of acres of forest land have burned. I dont know if you heard it on the news several years ago the US Forest Service with the help of the Park Service burned the town of Los Alamos damn near to the ground. Yeah the birth place of the atom bomb is just over the Sangre de Christo Mountains. I always feel comforted that there is a 10,000 foot high mountain range separating our ranch from Los Alamos National Labs. The USFS was practicing a policy known as a controlled burn when the blaze got out of hand and burned half the homes in the town of Los Alamos, NM and thousands of acres besides. !--[if !supportEmptyParas]--!--[endif]-- For me, since I am not much of a humanitarian, the loss of homes is less important than the loss of forestland. I especially dislike that yuppies feel the need to build their expensive homes in the forest. Nobody was hurt in the Los Alamos controlled burn by the way. Most people that live in what is now called the forest interface were warned to thin the tress around homes. Of
Re: Re[2]: [Biofuel] The New Blue States/Country
I don't know enough to say, but my suspicion is that Saddam was encouraged to overreact to Kuwaiti drilling into disputed areas, in order to 1. turn Saddam's Iraq from a client state into an enemy. The U.S. didn't have enough enemies at the time to justify its national security apparatus, which I suspect was felt in certain quarters to be a worthy end in itself. 2. introduce large U.S. ground and air forces into the Middle East with the consent of Saudi Arabia and other countries. 3. stimulate the modernization of the U.S. military and its supporting industry and provide some business for that industry. Doug Woodard St. Catharines, Ontario, Canada On Sun, 14 Aug 2005 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I read that G Bush Sr. did not plan to invade Iraq over Kuwait until he met with Maggie Thatcher and she told him how her popularity soared after the war she waged in the Faulklands, and this made him rethink his response to Saddam invading Kuwait. Is there any truth to this? Marilyn dbo There may have been a misunderstanding in Baghdad. I suspect that the dbo people in Washington knew exactly what they were doing. dbo Doug Woodard dbo St. Catharines, Ontario There is no suspect about it. I heard the US ambassador tell Iraqi government officials that the US had no interest in the issue at all. Twice. Seems that many people who also saw that on the US news have conveniently forgotten it. Our government suckered Iraq in order to invade. Period.Washington was fully cognizant of Iraq's intentions and lied in order to have an excuse to invade. Twice now we have done similar things. Happy Happy, Gustl dbo On Sun, 14 Aug 2005, Hakan Falk wrote: Iraq is the result of a misunderstanding, Saddam Hussein asked for the US permission to invade Kuweit and thought that he got it. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
[Biofuel] Biofuel College Courses
I am 18 and not sure where I want to go to college. I might take the year off, as it is so late to be signing up. My question for everyone is, does anyone here know of some good colleges, preferably in the New England area, that have specialty biofuel(or related) courses? That would be a great help to me. Also, I wanted to add an amazing discovery/question that I found this past week. I drive a 1992 honda civic. I just did a full tune up, including O2 sensor, plugs, wires, cap rotor, etc. I drove from FL to MA, and i got about 23 MPG. This is in a 1.5L engine in a car weighing maybe 1600 lbs fully loaded with 106 base HP. I then drove my father's car south( a 2000 Cadillac Deville), from Ma to FL, and got an amazing surprise : his 4.6L American engine with about 300 base HP pulling a car weighing maybe 3000Lbs empty got 28MPG. I also found that in the city, his car's gas mileage was 18 MPG, where mine is about 13. Now I admit to owning a foot of lead, but does anyone know how this is possible as i drove both vehicles, and with regular gas? The calculations were correct for MPG. Any input would be appreciated. ~ Paul ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Biofuel College Courses
Hello Pablo. We have a certificate program at Central Carolina Community College in Biofuels in Pittsboro, North Carolina. www.biofuels.coop/education.shtml www.biofuels.coop/cleantech There is also a degree program in Sustainable Agriculture. http://www..edu/Programs/Sustainable_Agriculture.html The land grant universities in our area are also researching alternative fuels, appropriate technology, renewable energy, including biodiesel NC State University www.ncsu.edu NC A T University www.ncat.edu and Appalachian University http://www.appstate.edu/ Also check out: http://www.unh.edu/p2/biodiesel/ University of New Hampshire www. me.iastate.edu/biodiesel Iowa State University Hope that helps, Rachel Burton Piedmont Biofuels www.biofuels.coop On Aug 14, 2005, at 1:51 PM, Pablo wrote: I am 18 and not sure where I want to go to college. I might take the year off, as it is so late to be signing up. My question for everyone is, does anyone here know of some good colleges, preferably in the New England area, that have specialty biofuel(or related) courses? That would be a great help to me. Also, I wanted to add an amazing discovery/question that I found this past week. I drive a 1992 honda civic. I just did a full tune up, including O2 sensor, plugs, wires, cap rotor, etc. I drove from FL to MA, and i got about 23 MPG. This is in a 1.5L engine in a car weighing maybe 1600 lbs fully loaded with 106 base HP. I then drove my father's car south( a 2000 Cadillac Deville), from Ma to FL, and got an amazing surprise : his 4.6L American engine with about 300 base HP pulling a car weighing maybe 3000Lbs empty got 28MPG. I also found that in the city, his car's gas mileage was 18 MPG, where mine is about 13. Now I admit to owning a foot of lead, but does anyone know how this is possible as i drove both vehicles, and with regular gas? The calculations were correct for MPG. Any input would be appreciated. ~ Paul ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/ biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] mercedes/dodge sprinter vans?
Does anyone out there have have a (diesel) biofueled Sprinter aka 316 I think? We are considering one, a CDI 5cyl turbo mercedes, for general hauling. My feeling is that there will be no problems with even b100 (mild climate) but just to see thought of casting about on the list. Other than the ford and dodge diesel trucks (maybe 22hwy max) it's all I can find (in the US) that gets even close (pathetic really) to reasonable mileage (18-30) for the capacity. Also, a hemp bill before the congress, I've forgotten the #, needs support. A viable source of oil I understand, amoung other uses (recreational not amoung them). Also, dust off that old copy of Farenheit/9-11 and watch it again. I find dragging oneself back through the timeline tends to clear the cobwebs of CNN breaking news stories. Then a little from Iran-Contra and some Watergate hearing footage and if the blood hasnt risen to your rosey cheeks try some footage of Wallace, or Jesse Helms. Fool me once I looked into the Santa Cruz GM food ban and it looks like a response to GM efforts to circumvent state by state restrictions on GM experimental plantings. Stealth Monsanto. Cheers, S. Chapin Corralitos Creek Gardens ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
[Biofuel] Making fertilizer into hydrogen
See the Economist magazine for a good article on making fertilizer into hydrogen. http://www.economist.com/printedition/displayStory.cfm?Story_ID =4269849 A new way to store solar energy Aug 11th 2005 From The Economist print edition MIX a pile of manure with some zinc oxide, angle a few giant mirrors towards the mixture, turn on the sun and steam the result. It may not sound appetising, but Michael Epstein and his colleagues at the Weizmann Institute of Science, in Israel, think that this recipe represents a novel way of collecting solar energy to generate what many hope will be the fuel of the futurehydrogen. (For the full article you have to buy a copy, but it's worth it. It's a good article.) Marilyn ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
[Biofuel] code yellow security alert
Fix is at http://www.microsoft.com/technet/security/bulletin/ms05-039.mspx Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Biofuel College Courses
Hi Paul Prescott College in Prescott, Arizona seems to have a good environmental program that includes Agroecology. They encourage people to do independent study, so you could probably have a lot of freedom in planning what you want to learn. Check our their website and give them a call. The site for their environmental program is the following: http://www.prescott.edu/academics/rdp/environmental_studies.h tml It's not in New England, but I think it's in a nice location in the mountains. Good luck. Marilyn Biofuel@sustainablelists.org wrote: I am 18 and not sure where I want to go to college. I might take the year off, as it is so late to be signing up. My question for everyone is, does anyone here know of some good colleges, preferably in the New England area, that have specialty biofuel(or related) courses? That would be a great help to me. Also, I wanted to add an amazing discovery/question that I found this past week. I drive a 1992 honda civic. I just did a full tune up, including O2 sensor, plugs, wires, cap rotor, etc. I drove from FL to MA, and i got about 23 MPG. This is in a 1.5L engine in a car weighing maybe 1600 lbs fully loaded with 106 base HP. I then drove my father's car south( a 2000 Cadillac Deville), from Ma to FL, and got an amazing surprise : his 4.6L American engine with about 300 base HP pulling a car weighing maybe 3000Lbs empty got 28MPG. I also found that in the city, his car's gas mileage was 18 MPG, where mine is about 13. Now I admit to owning a foot of lead, but does anyone know how this is possible as i drove both vehicles, and with regular gas? The calculations were correct for MPG. Any input would be appreciated. ~ Paul ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainableli sts.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] The New Blue States/Country
Well done Keith. Earl wrote: "Socialism and true communism may have its value to some and will thrive in some places of the world, but I prefer not to live under it. Or at least, if I have to, please call it as such - The Socialist Unoin of America." You prefer not to live under a model of democracy that allowsevery person in society a chance to participate in the decisions of their government AND immediately dismiss those who break their promise to serve, without waiting until the next election year? Please explain yourself Earl. I'm not convinced that socialism or communism can really work sincea successful examplehas never been achieved. However, it's principles, as a model for government,are far more democratic that the republic we live in today. So,what am I left to believe Earl? Are you a victim of the McCarthy legacy or do you prefernot to entertaina conversation on the merit of a valid modelfor democracy? Perhaps you don't realize that you already live under it's influence. Concepts derived fromcommunism have already contributed to the stabilization of oursociety (i.e. AFL-CIO). Ifthe working class did not take a stand, we could be called "The Robber Baron States of America"; ormaybe "Fordia" or "Coca Colica" (in contrast to your "Socialist Union of America"). If your OK with this, give it time because, we may get there yet. We already have a congress which is controlled by huge lobbies on the payroll of multinational corporations. In the past, socialism has played a bigger roll in the U.S. than most Americans care to know. In fact, it was popular enough that Eugene Debs won a million votes during his presidential campaign - while he was in prison. A hundred years after Marx commented on the future of capitalism, there have been remarkable revelationsabout his accuracy. Evenright-wing economists and dedicated capitalists are noticingand acknowledging his predictions about things like outsourcingfor cheap labor. You would be sorely disappointed if you allowed pure capitalism to demonstrate itself to be an example of democracy to the world. Some of us already are... MikeKeith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hello EarlMike,Where do I start?First, I have a real problem with any government (U.S., state, local) taking my hard earned money (in the form of taxes) and redistributing it to others. Now, there are legitimate things that each of these levels of government can spend taxpayer dollars on, namely, those outlined in their constitution or charter. In the case of the U.S. Government, these include national defense (not necessarily offense, though), minting currency, postal services, etc. When the U.S. Government (or perhaps the state governments) start spending my money outside the bounds of the Constitution, it is no longer legit. I would like to see Congress try and pass an Amendment to allow giving loans to foreign nations and never expecting repayment of those loans. How much support do you think they would get from the populace?Second, some people may consider giving funds or supplies to help poorer nations or refugee groups as charity, which it is.No it is not charity, and this is the point you miss, I hope it's through ignorance rather than convenience, but I think it's already been pointed out to you. There is LOTS about it in the archives, and the gist of it is that all the industrialised nations, the so-called "developed" nations, and especially the US, take VERY much more than they "give" to poor countries, and even the "giving", in the form of "aid", is often or usually tied to benefiting commercial interests in the donor countries rather than benefiting poor people at the receiving end as alleged. All they get dumped on them is harsh neo-liberalism and yet more imported poverty.Go to http://globalissues.org/ (for instance) and do some studying. You can start with these:http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/msg39994.htmlRe: [Biofuel] US Foreign aidhttp://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/msg51848.html[Biofuel] Inequality in wealthBest wishesKeithBut charity is you or I freely donating my money to others for the purpose of helping those in need. I have given money to help victims of 9-11, I have helped feed the homeless in soup kitchens, I have given my old clothing and furniture to Goodwill, Salvation Army, etc. Governments, such as our federal government, do not own the money they give to others - the money belongs to the taxpayers (and bond holders) who provide the money. How can the U.S. Government consider giving money to poor African countries as charity, when it isn't their money to give? As I mentioned previously, if the U.S. Government would stop taking my hard earned money and "donating" away, perhaps I would have more money that I could freely give to organizations like the Red Cross (this is only one example, there are others) as charity.Third, the idea of giving for the sake of giving is lost on most politicians. Inside
