date:20050826

Hello Wireless Data Transfer

Hello there! This is the second time I post this question, since 
nobody responded to the first time, please advice!
I own a fairly big piece of land, in which I grow oranges, and a lot of them
fall from the trees and rot on the ground.
I have been told that making ethanol from those rotting oranges can be quite
simple.
I can also have access to an almost unlimited supply of wood chips and
sawdust from a nearby lumber yard, from which I read Methanol can be
obtained, or those can be turned on fire to run the furnaces to make 
the Ethanol, right?
The main use I will have for either the Ethanol or the Methanol is to fuel
a small fleet of cars that I use for traveling back and forth to where the
oranges are.The 4 cars combined consume about 50~60 gallons of fuel per
month, each. I have found in various places on the Web that Brazil has many
vehicles that come from the factory ready to use alcohol as the fuel, but
nobody seems to have many details of the systems.
I'm looking forward for any suggestions to learn how to produce my 
own fuel at reduced costs, in order to make my operation as 
self-sustainable as possible.
Thank you in advance!

Not in advance, in arrears. When you came to the list you were 
pointed at the list resources, listed in the Welcome message and at 
the list homepage, it says this:

There are resources, FAQs, how-to's, full recipes and an online 
Biofuels Library at the Journey to Forever website, the premier 
source of small-scale biofuels information:

Biofuels
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

Biodiesel
http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel.html

Biodiesel - Where do I start?
http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_make.html#start

Straight vegetable oil (SVO)
http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_svo.html

Ethanol
http://journeytoforever.org/ethanol.html

Wood gas
http://journeytoforever.org/at_woodfire.html#woodgas

Biofuels Library
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel_library.html

Messages to the list can be read on the Web here:
http://sustainablelists.org/pipermail/biofuel_sustainablelists.org/

Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):
http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/

-

There are two complete online manuals on making your own ethanol, 
using fruit is covered, there are designs for stills, how-to's, 
forums, everything you need.

There's also a method of how to make ethanol from sawdust.

Whether methanol can or cannot be produced from wood short of a major 
industrial investment has been recently discussed at the list, you'll 
find the discussion in the list archives. It's also been discussed 
many times previously. Using wood as a heating source has also been 
discussed many times and in many ways, and there are good resources 
on it at the Journey to Forever website.

So maybe that's why you didn't get an answer the first time, you'd 
already received it and didn't notice.

Best wishes

Keith


___
Biofuel mailing list
Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org

Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):
http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/

Re: [Biofuel] Robertson / Chavez story on CNN


Mike,

What can I say? More than that you are right and I apologize.

Hakan


At 06:08 26/08/2005, you wrote:
Hakan,

not to bust your chops, but don't you think your remark was a little
offensive?  I mean apes are pretty smart
and generally live in a fairly harmonious family unit.  I think perhaps
you were thinking weasel or ferret ;-)

There's no call to go insulting apes like that...

-Mike

Hakan Falk wrote:

 Mike,
 
 Most of the really good Spanish Dr.s, get their education and
 especially practices in US. Some very popular specialities are mental
 and beauty treatments. Sweden is well known for replacement surgery,
 but they have not yet tried to replace human brains with the ones
 from apes, as far as I know. Maybe Robertson is an experiment, who
 knows? We would probably only heard about it, if it was regarded as
 successful.
 
 How can a representative of a religious fraction recommend
 assassination as a solution? Robertson is unbelievable stupid and I
 wonder who his God is and who are his followers?
 
 It is really amazing.
 
 Hakan
 
 
 At 01:53 24/08/2005, you wrote:
 
 
 I thought for sure I had seen Robertson being interviewed recently
 on FOX. If my memory serves me correctly, he had only been out of a
 facility for the mental challenged for 48 hours.  In Madrid, yes
 that's where it was, Spain!!!  But then, most of the Dr.'s in this
 particular hospital were from Denmark, or Sweden, or Norway,
 or...oh, who cares.  Strange combination, and as we can all clearly
 see, not at all effective!  Or.maybe he's just a nutcase.
 
 BTWnone of the above should, in any way, be taken literally.  It
 is all a friendly jab at Hakan : )
 
 To say it more clearly, everything written above is El Crapo.
 Man I hope that's not really spanish for something.  : (
 
 On 8/23/05, Hakan Falk
 mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED][EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 
 What mental hospital let this Robertson out too early? Does US not
 have the money to treat their basket cases in proper facilities?
 
 Hakan
 
 
 At 13:26 23/08/2005, you wrote:
 
 
 http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/08/23/robertson.chavez/
 
 
 
 ___
 Biofuel mailing list
 mailto:Biofuel@sustainablelists.orgBiofuel@sustainablelists.org
 http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org
 
 Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
 http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlhttp://journeytoforever. 
 org/biofuel.html
 
 Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives 
 (50,000 messages):
 http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/http:// 
 www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
 
 
 
 
 
 --
 Mike K
 AntiFossil
 MN, USA
 
 Behind the ostensible government sits
 enthroned an invisible government owing no
 allegiance and acknowledging no
 responsibility to the people. To destroy this
 invisible government, to befoul the unholy
 alliance between corrupt business and
 corrupt politics is the first task of the
 statesmen of today.
 President Theodore Roosevelt - 1906
 
 Give me the money that has been spent in
 war and I will clothe every man, woman, and
 child in an attire of which kings and queens
 will be proud. I will build a schoolhouse in
 every valley over the whole earth. I will crown
 every hillside with a place of worship
 consecrated to peace:
 Charles Sumner
 
 Quotes from
  Information Clearing House 
 ___
 Biofuel mailing list
 Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
 http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org
 
 Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
 http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
 
 Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives 
 (50,000 messages):
 http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
 
 
 
 
 
 ___
 Biofuel mailing list
 Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
 http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org
 
 Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
 http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
 
 Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 
 messages):
 http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
 
 


___
Biofuel mailing list
Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org

Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):
http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/



___
Biofuel mailing list
Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org

Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):
http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/

Re: [Biofuel] Robertson et al VS. followers

2005-08-26 Thread Manick Harris

Hi everybody,
I do not know about Robertson, but thereare many so-called 'evangelists' whose sole purpose is to collect money from naive believers. My late mother once donated !R 200 to a well known TV evangelist.and received a hasty letter back from the guy stating that it wasn't enough even for one brick. God, what kind of bricks do you use anyway. The Indian evangelists often use resurrection trick to con target groups into parting with large amounts of cash. When one such fellow who was claiming how he resurrected a corpse noticed how I was frowning he turned me in anger. With these guys no public accounts are kept at all and everything goes into their pocket. One fellow here was exorcising a young girl with her dress up and sitting on him, not knowing a police party was watching him...I think anyone who collects money should be accountable to prevent fraudof the divine kind. LOLBT [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Greetings fellow revolutionary alchemists!The question I have is, How do we help separate the good-hearted followers from their devious leaders?For example:I often forward news and interesting articles (much of which I find on this list, thanks to you all) to a few friends and family. I never get any responses. One of my friends I know is a 700 Club 'member' and his church preaches along the same political lines. After forwarding the news about Robertson's comments, I received this reply from my friend:
"He is a passionate man who speaks from his heart and who has said some stupid stuff in the past and probably will say some stupid things in the future but he apologized and that's good in my book. Heck, it's alot more than most political or public figures would do."

"Is it right to call for assassination? No, and I apologize for that statement," Robertson said. "I spoke in frustration that we should accommodate the man who thinks the U.S. is out to kill him."
http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/08/24/robertson.chavez/index.htmlTo which I responded with a more complete quote from Robertson's "apology", a page of links relating to Robertson's money-making operations in Africa (included at the bottom of this long email, in case anyone is interested) and a comment:
"Obviously Pat Robertson does not have any business interests in common with Hugo Chavez, otherwise Robertson would be defending Chavez instead of condemning him."
My friend's reply:--

"I heard from a story on NPR the other day regarding a current State Governor that when in the political spotlight and "riding a white horse" the dirt shows up easier. Too many resources have been wasted on putting Pat Roberts[on] on public "trial". Everyone knows that he is a religous man but the primary word in that description is "man". He is not God. Man makes mistakes. When shadey politicians make mistakes it's OK because nobody expects them to be perfect. I wish the world would focus on solutions to problems instead of dwelling on the faults of man.

Spread that comment around the Internet and see where it gets you."--

Ok, so it's spreading. :-)
My friend is no fool. He is perfectly capable of thinking logically and rationally. But from this irrational reply, I think we have clearly reached the point where my friend is not really defending Robertson but is actually defending himself since he sees himself associated with Robertson.If anyone has ever had the opportunity to watch a 700 Club broadcast, you will notice how softly and pleasantly they speak about helping the poor around the world and healing people. They give the impression of being 'good Christians' and that is how they get the cash from their listeners, who see their donation as doing something good to help others.
So I can see how it would be easy to get sucked into their influence.
For us on the 'outside', it is easy to view Robertson as a crazy demagogue on one hand and an astute, greedy business man on the other.
But what does it take for those on the 'inside' to look at Robertson (or Bush or whoever) and say, "I've been deceived. That is not what I support."; to separate themselves from the object of criticism?
I think that does happen in some cases. Or maybe, in other cases the people haven't been deceived, but they just don't care which means that they really aren't any different than the 'leader'.
I hope I'm not delving into some social-psychology mumbo-jumbo that no-one is interested in?
BT

Re: [Biofuel] DSE web site

2005-08-26 Thread Chris Lloyd









I have seen something similar
used in England, after adding and shaking the mixture has to
stand for about a week.  Chris.



 










--
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
Version: 7.0.344 / Virus Database: 267.10.15/82 - Release Date: 25/08/2005
 
___
Biofuel mailing list
Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org

Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):
http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/

Re: [Biofuel] Thank you JtF, for continued excellence!

Gosh... :-)

Thankyou Sean, good for you!

In the four short months that I've been reading and
learning from the Biofuels listserv, I have come to
value greatly the breadth and depth of knowledge of
its members, not to mention its moderator.  For this I
thank you all.

I just successfully completed my first test batch,
have begun gathering bits with which to build my
processor, and I stand quite bouyed with the promise
of a home-brewed, non-petrol future for my beloved
Volkswagen.

Cheers to you, JtF!

And to you Sean.

Sean Michael Dargan
Singer/Songwriter/Biodieseler
Madison, Wisconsin

P.S.  In the interest of plumbing multiple sources for
my new-found biodiesel obsession... er, I mean
interest... I ordered a certain popular book and  how
to video from an another BD site, just to check it
out.  Heavens to Mergatroid!  I'm sure it's been
covered before at *great* lengths,

Not that I recall.

but what a
nightmare is that video!  I gather that the chap
behind that outfit must be VERY good at the marketing
part, because he certainly missed the bus on the
acting part.  And the savvy communicating part...  and
the chemistry...  Good gracious!

That's sad to hear. If only it were good stuff, eh? :-(

Best wishes, thanks again!

Keith


___
Biofuel mailing list
Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org

Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):
http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/

[Biofuel] Apartment dwellers - was Re: (no subject)

Hello Scott, welcome

I'm pretty new here. Hello all:

Question:

1. Is there a requirement to use a red gas can for biofuel (yellow for
diesel)?

Never heard of it, but I guess it depends where you are.

2. How does an apartment dweller create fuel in his or her small space?

Have a look at these:

Test-batch mini-processor
http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_processor7.html

Simple 5-gallon processor
http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_processor5.html

LOTS of people use those.

Best wishes

Keith


Scott

- Original Message -
From: Gary Shenberg [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Sent: Wednesday, August 24, 2005 11:47 PM
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] (no subject)


  Hey Michael
 
  Would like some help also if you have the time.  Any advice on the best
  way
  to get started?
 
  Thanks
 
  Gary
 
 
 
 
 
 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Reply-To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
 To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
 Subject: Re: [Biofuel] (no subject)
 Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 07:37:21 -0400
 
 Hi, I live in Seale, Alabama.
 
 I would be happy to work with you.  I have been making biodiesel for
 almost 3 years now.
 
 I look forward to hearing from you.
 
 Cheers!
 
 Michael Lendzian
 CINS Network Support Team
 Columbus State University
 CINS/Center for Commerce  Technology Room 105
 706.569.3044 (help desk)
 
 - Original Message -
 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Date: Tuesday, August 23, 2005 7:22 pm
 Subject: [Biofuel] (no subject)
 
   I am looking for someone in Alabama, preferably Birmingham area
   that is making bio fuel that would be willing to show me the
   process and equipment used. I will also drive to TN, GA, MS, N-FL,
   if anyone is available.
  
   Thanks,
   Hunter
  
  
   ___
   Biofuel mailing list
   Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
  
 http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.or
 g
  
   Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
   http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
  
   Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000
   messages):http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
  
  
 
 ___
 Biofuel mailing list
 Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
 http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org
 
 Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
 http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
 
 Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000
 messages):
 http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
 
 
 
 
  ___
  Biofuel mailing list
  Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
  http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org
 
  Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
  http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
 
  Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000
  messages):
  http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
 
 

___
Biofuel mailing list
Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org

Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):
http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/


___
Biofuel mailing list
Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org

Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):
http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/

Re: [Biofuel] temperate oilseed tree?

2005-08-26 Thread Guag Meister

Hi Keith ;

 You can get seeds from ECHO. Try jojoba too.

I just ordered 5,000 moringa seeds. US$150 including
shipping. At the post office now.  I'll post info on
germination rate later.

Best Regards,

Peter G.
Thailand


Dear Sirs
 
Your ordered Moringa seeds are despatched by Speed
post
 
No. EE749036407IN DATED 20 AUGUST, 2005
 
TOTAL NO. OF SEEDS ARE 5000 , 500 SEEDS IN EACH
PACKET. TOTAL NO. OF PACKETS 10
 
REGARDS
 
 
PARITOSH GULATI
PROJECT MANAGER
ASIAN POWER CYCLOPES
ROCHIPURA
MAJRA
DEHRADUN-248171 INDIA
PHONE :- 91-135-2620488
FAX :- 91-135-2620961
MOBILE :- 9897226101
EMAIL:-  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
  [EMAIL PROTECTED]





Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page 
http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs 
 

___
Biofuel mailing list
Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org

Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):
http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/

Re: [Biofuel] Apartment dwellers - was Re: (no subject)

Dunno on the cans but some places won't let you put Diesel in a gas can.

I've made it inside - I would advise setting up a long table with a good 
fan near an open window.  Keep some water handy.  I finally decided to 
build a shed - I live in a house.

Keith Addison wrote:

Hello Scott, welcome

  

I'm pretty new here. Hello all:

Question:

1. Is there a requirement to use a red gas can for biofuel (yellow for
diesel)?



Never heard of it, but I guess it depends where you are.

  

2. How does an apartment dweller create fuel in his or her small space?



Have a look at these:

Test-batch mini-processor
http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_processor7.html

Simple 5-gallon processor
http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_processor5.html

LOTS of people use those.

Best wishes

Keith


  

Scott

- Original Message -
From: Gary Shenberg [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Sent: Wednesday, August 24, 2005 11:47 PM
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] (no subject)




Hey Michael

Would like some help also if you have the time.  Any advice on the best
way
to get started?

Thanks

Gary





  

From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Reply-To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] (no subject)
Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 07:37:21 -0400

Hi, I live in Seale, Alabama.

I would be happy to work with you.  I have been making biodiesel for
almost 3 years now.

I look forward to hearing from you.

Cheers!

Michael Lendzian
CINS Network Support Team
Columbus State University
CINS/Center for Commerce  Technology Room 105
706.569.3044 (help desk)

- Original Message -
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Tuesday, August 23, 2005 7:22 pm
Subject: [Biofuel] (no subject)



I am looking for someone in Alabama, preferably Birmingham area
that is making bio fuel that would be willing to show me the
process and equipment used. I will also drive to TN, GA, MS, N-FL,
if anyone is available.

Thanks,
Hunter


___
Biofuel mailing list
Biofuel@sustainablelists.org

  

http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.or
g


Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000
messages):http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/


  

___
Biofuel mailing list
Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org

Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000
messages):
http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/




___
Biofuel mailing list
Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org

Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000
messages):
http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/


  

___
Biofuel mailing list
Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org

Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):
http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/




___
Biofuel mailing list
Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org

Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):
http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
  



___
Biofuel mailing list
Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org

Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):
http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/

Re: [Biofuel] Robertson et al VS. followers

I once sent them (Oral Roberts?) a brick.  They were asking for 25.00 to 
buy a brick, so I sent them a letter saying I could get a much better 
price and did they want more.
Cost me something like 4.00 for 4th class postage but it was worth it.

Manick Harris wrote:

 Hi everybody,
 I do not know about Robertson, but thereare many so-called 
 'evangelists' whose sole purpose is to collect money from naive 
 believers. My late mother once donated !R 200 to a well known TV 
 evangelist.and received a hasty letter back from the guy stating that 
 it wasn't enough even for one brick. God, what kind of bricks do you 
 use anyway. The Indian evangelists often use resurrection trick to con 
 target groups into parting with large amounts of cash. When one such 
 fellow who was claiming how he resurrected a corpse noticed how I was 
 frowning he turned me in anger. With these guys no public accounts are 
 kept at all and everything goes into their pocket. One fellow here was 
 exorcising a young girl  with her dress up and sitting on him, not 
 knowing a police party was watching him...I think anyone who collects 
 money should be accountable to prevent fraud of the divine kind. LOL

 */BT [EMAIL PROTECTED]/* wrote:

 Greetings fellow revolutionary alchemists!

 The question I have is, How do we help separate the good-hearted
 followers from their devious leaders?

 For example:
 I often forward news and interesting articles (much of which I
 find on this list, thanks to you all)  to a few friends and
 family. I never get any responses. One of my friends I know is a
 700 Club 'member' and his church preaches along the same political
 lines. After forwarding the news about Robertson's comments, I
 received this reply from my friend:
 
 He is a passionate man who speaks from his heart and who has said
 some stupid stuff in the past and probably will say some stupid
 things in the future but he apologized and that's good in my
 book.  Heck, it's alot more than most political or public figures
 would do.
  

 Is it right to call for assassination? No, and I apologize for
 that statement, Robertson said. I spoke in frustration that we
 should accommodate the man who thinks the U.S. is out to kill him.

 http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/08/24/robertson.chavez/index.html

 
 To which I responded with a more complete quote from Robertson's
 apology, a page of links relating to Robertson's money-making
 operations in Africa (included at the bottom of this long email,
 in case anyone is interested)  and a comment:

 Obviously Pat Robertson does not have any business interests in
 common with Hugo Chavez, otherwise Robertson would be defending
 Chavez instead of condemning him.

 My friend's reply:
 --

 I heard from a story on NPR the other day regarding a current
 State Governor that when in the political spotlight and riding a
 white horse the dirt shows up easier.  Too many resources have
 been wasted on putting Pat Roberts[on] on public trial. 
 Everyone knows that he is a religous man but the primary word in
 that description is man.  He is not God.  Man makes mistakes. 
 When shadey politicians make mistakes it's OK because nobody
 expects them to be perfect.  I wish the world would focus on
 solutions to problems instead of dwelling on the faults of man.
  
 Spread that comment around the Internet and see where it gets you.
 --

 Ok, so it's spreading. :-)

 My friend is no fool. He is perfectly capable of thinking
 logically and rationally. But from this irrational reply, I think
 we have clearly reached the point where my friend is not really
 defending Robertson but is actually defending himself since he
 sees himself associated with Robertson.

 If anyone has ever had the opportunity to watch a 700 Club
 broadcast, you will notice how softly and pleasantly they speak
 about helping the poor around the world and healing people. They
 give the impression of being 'good Christians' and that is how
 they get the cash from their listeners, who see their donation as
 doing something good to help others.

 So I can see how it would be easy to get sucked into their influence.

 For us on the 'outside', it is easy to view Robertson as a crazy
 demagogue on one hand and an astute, greedy business man on the other.

 But what does it take for those on the 'inside' to look at
 Robertson (or Bush or whoever) and say, I've been deceived. That
 is not what I support.; to separate themselves from the object of
 criticism?

 I think that does happen in some cases. Or maybe, in other cases
 the people haven't been deceived, but they just don't care which
 means that they really aren't any different than the 'leader'.

 I hope I'm not delving into some

Re: [Biofuel] Robertson / Chavez story on CNN

2005-08-26 Thread Kirk McLoren

Furthermore, the Scottish banker's charter became the pattern for the US Federal Reserve Board, a 'diabolic' agency created and nurtured by the US Senate Finance Committee, whose chairman was the 'Money Trust's' dependable friend, Senator A. Willis Robertson - Pat Robertson's father.
http://www.gregpalast.com/detail.cfm?artid=49row=1

Pat Roberson is a piece of work. Too bad people don't research or read before they send weasels their money. Few people know the real Pat Robertson.

Kirk
Mike Weaver [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Hakan,not to bust your chops, but don't you think your remark was a little offensive? I mean apes are pretty smartand generally live in a fairly harmonious family unit. I think perhaps you were thinking weasel or ferret ;-)There's no call to go insulting apes like that...-MikeHakan Falk wrote:Mike,Most of the really good Spanish Dr.s, get their education and especially practices in US. Some very popular specialities are mental and beauty treatments. Sweden is well known for replacement surgery, but they have not yet tried to replace human brains with the ones from apes, as far as I know. Maybe Robertson is an experiment, who knows? We would probably only heard about it, if it was regarded as successful.How can a representative of a religious fraction
recommend assassination as a solution? Robertson is unbelievable stupid and I wonder who his God is and who are his followers?It is really amazing.HakanAt 01:53 24/08/2005, you wrote: I thought for sure I had seen Robertson being interviewed recently on FOX. If my memory serves me correctly, he had only been out of a facility for the mental challenged for 48 hours. In Madrid, yes that's where it was, Spain!!! But then, most of the Dr.'s in this particular hospital were from Denmark, or Sweden, or Norway, or...oh, who cares. Strange combination, and as we can all clearly see, not at all effective! Or.maybe he's just a nutcase.BTWnone of the above should, in any way, be taken literally. It is all a friendly jab at Hakan : )To say it more clearly,
everything written above is "El Crapo".Man I hope that's not really spanish for something. : (On 8/23/05, Hakan Falk [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:What mental hospital let this Robertson out too early? Does US nothave the money to treat their "basket cases" in proper facilities?HakanAt 13:26 23/08/2005, you wrote: http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/08/23/robertson.chavez/ ___Biofuel mailing listBiofuel@sustainablelists.orghttp://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.orgBiofuel at Journey to Forever:http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlSearch the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ --Mike KAntiFossilMN, USA"Behind the ostensible government sitsenthroned an invisible government owing noallegiance and acknowledging noresponsibility to the people. To destroy thisinvisible government, to befoul the unholyalliance between corrupt business andcorrupt politics is the first task of thestatesmen of today."President Theodore Roosevelt - 1906Give me the money that has been spent inwar and I will clothe every man, woman,
andchild in an attire of which kings and queenswill be proud. I will build a schoolhouse inevery valley over the whole earth. I will crownevery hillside with a place of worshipconsecrated to peace:Charles SumnerQuotes from" Information Clearing House "___Biofuel mailing listBiofuel@sustainablelists.orghttp://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.orgBiofuel at Journey to Forever:http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlSearch the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___Biofuel mailing
listBiofuel@sustainablelists.orghttp://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.orgBiofuel at Journey to Forever:http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlSearch the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___Biofuel mailing listBiofuel@sustainablelists.orghttp://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.orgBiofuel at Journey to Forever:http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlSearch the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page ___
Biofuel mailing list
Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org

Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

Search the combined Biofuel and

[Biofuel] Alternative to Toxic Mold Compounds?

2005-08-26 Thread Michael Redler


I know that this may fall outside the scope of our usual discussions but, I thought there might be knowledge to gain here.
In the process of building a prototype solar tracker, I'm stuck with a dilemma. Some of the parts I make need to be molded. So, I'm making silicone based molds and casting the parts with two-part polyurethane.
According to the MSDS sheets, the catalyst for the silicone mold is a tin-based compound and very toxic. The reason I started in this directionis that it's readily available, widely used and proven to work. When finished, I can cast parts in almost any material. I can even pour low melt temperature metals.
I would liketo make/use a casting material from something which is safer to me and the environment and still be durable and weather-proof. I was making pasta the other night and found (the next morning) a couple of pieces of spaghetti, dried and conforming to the shape of the colander. It made me wonder if there is a casting materiel made of carbohydrates and /or starch that I can use with a latex rubber mold.
Any thoughts?
Mike___
Biofuel mailing list
Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org

Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):
http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/

Re: [Biofuel] How to make ehtanol, second try.......

2005-08-26 Thread Michael Redler




"Hello there! This is the second time I post this question, since nobody responded to the first time, please advice!"

(some) links to Books, equipment, videos
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel_library/ethanol_manual/manual1-2.html

http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel_library/ethanol_motherearth/meCh9.html
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel_library/ethanol_manual/manual14.html
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel_library/ethanol_sawdust.html
http://www.amphora-society.com/
http://www.gin-vodka.com/
http://buffalo-creek-press.com/
http://www.moonshine-still.com/page2.htm
http://www.homedistiller.org/
I haven't thoroughly researched the last four sites but, at a glance they looked fine. The Amphora Society is mentioned in various distillers discussion groups and has not received any negative comments to my knowledge.
Good luck!
Mike___
Biofuel mailing list
Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org

Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):
http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/

Re: [Biofuel] Alternative to Toxic Mold Compounds?

What about milling Acrylic?

Michael Redler wrote:

 I know that this may fall outside the scope of our usual discussions 
 but, I thought there might be knowledge to gain here.

 In the process of building a prototype solar tracker, I'm stuck with a 
 dilemma. Some of the parts I make need to be molded. So, I'm making 
 silicone based molds and casting the parts with two-part polyurethane.

 According to the MSDS sheets, the catalyst for the silicone mold is a 
 tin-based compound and very toxic. The reason I started in this 
 direction is that it's readily available, widely used and proven to 
 work. When finished, I can cast parts in almost any material. I can 
 even pour low melt temperature metals.

 I would like to make/use a casting material from something which is 
 safer to me and the environment and still be durable and 
 weather-proof. I was making pasta the other night and found (the next 
 morning) a couple of pieces of spaghetti, dried and conforming to the 
 shape of the colander. It made me wonder if there is a casting 
 materiel made of carbohydrates and /or starch that I can use with a 
 latex rubber mold.

 Any thoughts?

 Mike 



___
Biofuel mailing list
Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org

Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):
http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/

  



___
Biofuel mailing list
Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org

Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):
http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/

Re: [Biofuel] Robertson et al VS. followers

BT wrote:
 Greetings fellow revolutionary alchemists!
 
 The question I have is, How do we help separate the good-hearted 
 followers from their devious leaders?

I've found the best thing to do is go back to the scriptures from 
whence Christians are supposed to derive standards for their behavior. 
  This is especially true when the argument of you shouldn't judge 
anyone comes to fore.  Now, Jesus himself said this, in the second 
part of Luke 12: 48:

From everyone who has been given much, much will be demanded; and 
from one who has been entrusted with much, much more will be asked.

Leaders, who ought to know better, are far more accountable than the 
average person.  When Jesus confronted the leaders of his day, he 
seldom had pleasant words for them for this very reason.  Here is an 
example:

Make a tree good and its fruit will be good, or make a tree bad and 
its fruit will be bad, for a tree is recognized by its fruit. 
(There's a biofuel angle in there!)  You brood of vipers!  How can you 
who are evil say anything good?  For out of the overflow of the heart 
the mouth speaks.  The good man brings good things out of the good 
stored up in him, and the evil man brings evil things out of the evil 
stored up in him.  But I tell you that men will have to give account 
on the day of judgment for every careless word they have spoken.  For 
by your words you will be acquitted, and by your words you will be 
condemned.  (Matthew 12: 33 - 37)

So, no higher authority than Jesus Christ himself condemns reckless 
rhetoric, and we who call ourselves Christians should not soft pedal 
this kind of behavior either.  A man like Pat Robertson, who CLAIMS to 
be a Christian, should have read statements of this nature and taken 
them to heart long ago.  When I complain about this kind of problem, I 
do so because it degrades the standing of the Christian faith in the 
eyes of nonbelievers who are watching.  If I, a nobody, get upset when 
the name of God is blasphemed in this manner, shouldn't genuine 
Christian leaders roundly condemn the same behavior?  After all, this 
is what the scriptures admonish:

Live such good lives among the pagans that, though they accuse you 
of wrongdoing, they may see your good deeds and glorify God on the day 
he visits us.  (1 Peter 2: 12)

And elsewhere:

But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there 
WILL BE FALSE TEACHERS AMONG YOU.  (Emphasis is mine.)  They will 
secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the Sovereign 
Lord who bought them--bringing swift destruction on themselves.  Many 
will follow their shameful ways and will bring the way of truth into 
disrepute.  In their greed, these teachers will exploit you with 
stories they have made up . . .  (2 Peter 2: 1 - 3)

The fact that Pat Robertson calls himself a Christian disgusts me for 
this very reason.  He's not following the example of Jesus Christ, so 
by his actions, he denies Christ.  If he's impulsive and can't control 
himself, he has no power from God.  A person who calls himself a 
Christian is one who should know God very well.  Therefore:

We know that we have come to know him if we obey his commands.  The 
man who says, 'I know him', but does not do what he commands is a liar 
and the truth is not in him.  But if anyone obeys his word, God's love 
is truly made complete in him.  This is how we know we are in him: 
Whoever claims to live in him must walk as Jesus did.  (1 John 2: 3 - 6)

So then, if we examine what Jesus did, we will find a man who never 
sought harm for anyone else.  He was a man who lived by high principle 
and spoke very carefully.  He did not advocate violence, he did not 
stir up a mob to overthrow the Romans, he did not seek political power 
or financial gain.  Therefore, if you see someone who claims to be a 
Christian doing these things, you can KNOW that he's a liar.  Further 
on, you can read this:

Anyone who hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no 
murderer has eternal life in him.  (1 John 3: 15)

Now, I know that these faux Christians will say Those verses only 
apply to your Christian brother, because that's what they're 
programmed to say by the false teachers they follow.  But the 
principles that Christians should follow transcend this worldly 
attitude.  Once again, here's what Jesus actually taught:

You have heard that it was said, 'Love your neighbor and hate your 
enemy.  But I tell you: Love your enemies and pray for those who 
persecute you that you may be sons of your Father in heaven.  He 
causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the 
righteous and the unrighteous.  If you love those who love you, what 
reward will you get?  Are not even the tax collectors doing that?  And 
if you greet only your brothers, what are you doing more than others? 
  Do not even the pagans do that?  Be

Re: [Biofuel] Alternative to Toxic Mold Compounds?

2005-08-26 Thread Peter Childers

How about using JB Weld. It has a high heat resistance and is impervious to 
oils and chemicals etc. Not sure how big your molds are but you may be able 
to buy direct from JB Weld in larger quantities. It is a two part epoxy that 
I have used to mold repair plastic items. It gravity flows and sets into a 
shapeable and sandable mold.
Peter
- Original Message - 
From: Mike Weaver [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Sent: Friday, August 26, 2005 10:23 AM
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Alternative to Toxic Mold Compounds?

 What about milling Acrylic?

 Michael Redler wrote:

 I know that this may fall outside the scope of our usual discussions
 but, I thought there might be knowledge to gain here.

 In the process of building a prototype solar tracker, I'm stuck with a
 dilemma. Some of the parts I make need to be molded. So, I'm making
 silicone based molds and casting the parts with two-part polyurethane.

 According to the MSDS sheets, the catalyst for the silicone mold is a
 tin-based compound and very toxic. The reason I started in this
 direction is that it's readily available, widely used and proven to
 work. When finished, I can cast parts in almost any material. I can
 even pour low melt temperature metals.

 I would like to make/use a casting material from something which is
 safer to me and the environment and still be durable and
 weather-proof. I was making pasta the other night and found (the next
 morning) a couple of pieces of spaghetti, dried and conforming to the
 shape of the colander. It made me wonder if there is a casting
 materiel made of carbohydrates and /or starch that I can use with a
 latex rubber mold.

 Any thoughts?

 Mike

___
Biofuel mailing list
Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org

Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 
messages):
http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/

 ___
 Biofuel mailing list
 Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
 http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org

 Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
 http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

 Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 
 messages):
 http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/

___
Biofuel mailing list
Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org

Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):
http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/

Re: [Biofuel] Alternative to Toxic Mold Compounds?

2005-08-26 Thread Greg and April

Why use synthetic molds?

Why not use classic greensand or plaster
molds? It's something that highschool kids can
do.

Greg H.

- Original Message -
From:
Michael Redler

To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org

Sent: Friday, August 26, 2005 8:11
Subject: [Biofuel] Alternative to Toxic
Mold Compounds?

I know that this may fall outside the scope of our usual discussions but, I
thought there might be knowledge to gain here.
In the process of building a prototype solar tracker, I'm stuck with a
dilemma. Some of the parts I make need to be molded. So, I'm making silicone
based molds and casting the parts with two-part polyurethane.
According to the MSDS sheets, the catalyst for the silicone mold is a
tin-based compound and very toxic. The reason I started in this
directionis that it's readily available, widely used and proven to work.
When finished, I can cast parts in almost any material. I can even pour low
melt temperature metals.
I would liketo make/use a casting material from something which is
safer to me and the environment and still be durable and weather-proof. I was
making pasta the other night and found (the next morning) a couple of pieces
of spaghetti, dried and conforming to the shape of the colander. It made me
wonder if there is a casting materiel made of carbohydrates and /or starch
that I can use with a latex rubber mold.
Any thoughts?
Mike

___Biofuel mailing
listBiofuel@sustainablelists.orghttp://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.orgBiofuel
at Journey to
Forever:http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlSearch the
combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000
messages):http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
___
Biofuel mailing list
Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org

Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):
http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/

Re: [Biofuel] (no subject)

2005-08-26 Thread Greg and April

Use the Yellow can, for BioDiesel.

The reason for the color difference of the can, is so someone will not
mistake it for gasoline ( red ) or kerosene ( blue ).I know, you would
check, but, it doesn't mean someone else will.

Greg H.


- Original Message - 
From: Scott Yancey [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Sent: Thursday, August 25, 2005 14:21
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] (no subject)


 I'm pretty new here. Hello all:

 Question:

 1. Is there a requirement to use a red gas can for biofuel (yellow for
 diesel)?

 2. How does an apartment dweller create fuel in his or her small space?

 Scott



___
Biofuel mailing list
Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org

Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):
http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/

Re: [Biofuel] Alternative to Toxic Mold Compounds?

2005-08-26 Thread Ecogenics3




yes you can use dental impression compound called alginate it makes 
perfect molds and ive used it extensivelyh in making latex molds for 
fiberglass parts.. its relatively cheap absolutly safe and makes perfect 
impressions you can get it at any dental supply houses youll love 
it but you can onml;y make a few copies and if you dont 
let it dry out you can make quite a few... 
marc
___
Biofuel mailing list
Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org

Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):
http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/

Re: [Biofuel] New Biodegradable Polymers

2005-08-26 Thread Greg and April

I wonder what they would get if they tried it with BioDiesel?

Greg H.

- Original Message - 
From: Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Sent: Wednesday, August 24, 2005 12:47
Subject: [Biofuel] New Biodegradable Polymers

 STORY LEAD:
 New Citric Acid-Based Polymers for Agricultural Applications
 ___

 ARS News Service
 Agricultural Research Service, USDA
 Sharon Durham, (301) 504-1611, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 August 24, 2005
 --View this report online, plus any included photos or other images,
 at www.ars.usda.gov/is/pr
 ___

 A biodiesel fuel byproduct called glycerol and an agricultural
 commodity called citric acid can be chemically combined to produce
 biodegradable polymers that could be used in produce packaging and
 other products, according to Agricultural Research Service scientists.

 Justin Barone, a chemist at the ARS Environmental Quality Laboratory
 in Beltsville, Md., made the discovery while studying processes for
 improving the effectiveness of insecticides that contain citric acid
 as an active ingredient. Citric acid washes away very quickly in the
 environment, limiting its effectiveness.

 Barone found that molecules containing hydrogen and oxygen--such as
 glycerol, sorbitol or polyethylene glycol--reacted with citric acid
 to produce polymers with citric acid groups in them. The materials
 formed are biodegradable polyesters. Further study showed that the
 viscosity of the material can range from the consistency of paint to
 a slow-to-dissolve, glasslike product, depending on how the chemical
 reaction takes place.

 The new biodegradable polymers may provide the biodiesel industry
 with a new use for glycerol, which is now disposed of after the
 biodiesel is made. In addition, citric acid is used in the food
 industry as a retardant to browning in cut fruits and vegetables. The
 new citric acid-based polyesters may prove useful as a packaging
 material. Studies are under way to determine whether the new polymers
 would work as well as pure citric acid in these applications.

 ARS is the U.S. Department of Agriculture's chief scientific research
agency.

 ___
 Biofuel mailing list
 Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
 http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org

 Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
 http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

 Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000
messages):
 http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/

___
Biofuel mailing list
Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org

Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):
http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/

Re: [Biofuel] Apartment dwellers - was Re: (no subject)

2005-08-26 Thread John Hayes

In the US, fuel jugs are color-coded - red for gas, yellow for diesel 
and if, I remember correctly, blue for kerosene.

Of course, in the vast majority of cases, the same polymer is used for 
all three so you can certainly substitute one for another safetywise. As 
to whether dispensing locations (eg gas stations/distributers) will give 
you a hard time about using the wrong color, I can't comment.

I've had good luck finding yellow jugs locally at Home Depot. Yeah, it's 
big box retail, but at least it isn't Walmart.

If you want to look online, try searching froogle.google.com using the 
phrase diesel can or blitz jug


Good luck!

jh



Mike Weaver wrote:
 Dunno on the cans but some places won't let you put Diesel in a gas can.
 

I'm pretty new here. Hello all:

Question:

1. Is there a requirement to use a red gas can for biofuel (yellow for
diesel)?
   


Never heard of it, but I guess it depends where you are.


___
Biofuel mailing list
Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org

Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):
http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/

Re: [Biofuel] DSE web site

I have seen something similar used in England, after adding and 
shaking the mixture has to stand for about a week. ÝChris.

Do you mean John Nicholson's Biopower stuff Chris? Just add a magic 
solvent, 30%, or was it 3%, or was it only a spoonful? Please see:

http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/msg46086.html
[Biofuel] Biopower - was Re: On-farm biodiesel or ethanol

Best wishes

Keith


___
Biofuel mailing list
Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org

Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):
http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/

Re: [Biofuel] Robertson / Chavez story on CNN

Hi Kirk

Furthermore, the Scottish banker's charter became the pattern for 
the US Federal Reserve Board, a 'diabolic' agency created and 
nurtured by the US Senate Finance Committee, whose chairman was the 
'Money Trust's' dependable friend, Senator A. Willis Robertson - Pat 
Robertson's father.
http://www.gregpalast.com/detail.cfm?artid=49row=1

Thanks! Greg Palast does it agriculture. Worth posting it in full, below.

Pat Roberson is a piece of work. Too bad people don't research or 
read before they send weasels their money. Few people know the real 
Pat Robertson.

Kirk

snip

http://www.gregpalast.com/detail.cfm?artid=49row=1

Pat Robertson: 'I don't have to be nice to the spirit of the Antichrist'

Observer, London - reprint

Tuesday, August 23, 2005

by Greg Palast

Palast was nominated Business Journalist of the Year by Britain's 
Press Association for his investigation of Robertson.

It's time someone told you the truth. There is an Invisible Cord that 
can be traced from the European bankers who ordered the assassination 
of President Lincoln, to Karl Marx, to the British bankers who funded 
the Soviet KGB. They are members of the 'tightly knit cabal whose 
goal is nothing less than a new order for the human race under the 
domination of Lucifer'.

If you don't know about the Invisible Cord, then you have not read 
New World Order by Dr Marion 'Pat' Robertson. This is the same Pat 
Robertson that the Bank of Scotland recently named chairman of its 
new American consumer-bank holding company. Interestingly, the 
Scottish bank's biography of Robertson failed to mention New World 
Order, the 1991 bestseller that the Wall Street Journal, in a 
mean-spirited review, described as written by 'a paranoid pinhead 
with a deep distrust of democracy'.

There is so much the Bank of Scotland forgot to include in its 
profile of Robertson that it is left to this newspaper to describe 
this man of wealth and taste. The bank, for example, failed to note 
that he is best known to Americans as leader of the 1.2 
million-strong ultra-right political front, Christian Coalition.

It may seem a bit odd for the Bank of Scotland to choose as its 
spokesman a man who has been compared to Ian Paisley. But bank 
officials say they are not concerned with Robertson's religious 
beliefs. Nor, apparently, is Robertson concerned with theirs.

He said: 'You're supposed to be nice to Episcopalians, Presbyterians 
and Methodists ... Nonsense. I don't have to be nice to the spirit of 
the Antichrist.'

Why would the Bank of Scotland want to join up with a figure whose 
unpalatable views on women, gays, Democrats and others led one unkind 
civil liberties organisation to describe him as 'the most dangerous 
man in America'?

Someone more cynical than me might suspect that the Bank of Scotland 
covets Robertson's fiercely loyal following, the 2 million conspiracy 
wonks and charismatic evangelicals who, a former business partner 
says, 'would give him their life savings'. 'These people believe he 
has a hot-line to God.'

In an exclusive interview with The Observer, Robertson swears he will 
keep bank commerce, Christianity and the Coalition completely 
separate. But our look into the Robertson empire, including 
interviews with his former and current business associates, reveals a 
history of mixing God, gain and Republican campaign.

The combination of ministry and Mammon has provided Robertson with a 
net worth estimated at between $200m and $1 billion. He himself would 
not confirm his wealth, except to tell me that his share of the 
reported $50m start-up capital for the bank is 'just a small 
investment for me'.

Neil Volder, president of Robertson Financial and director of the new 
bank venture, emphasises that Robertson selflessly donated between 65 
and 75 per cent of his salary as head of International Family 
Entertainment. But that amounted to only a few hundred thousand 
dollars a year - pocket change for a man of Robertson's means.

There was also, says Volder, the $7m he gave to 'Operation Blessing' 
to alleviate the woes of refugees fleeing genocide in Rwanda. 
Robertson's press operation puts the sum at only $1.2m. More 
interesting is the way the Operation Blessing funds were used in 
Africa. Through an emotional fundraising drive on his TV station, 
Robertson raised several million dollars for the tax-free charitable 
trust. Operation Blessing bought planes to shuttle medical supplies 
in and out of the refugee camp in Goma, Congo (then Zaire).

But investigative reporter Bill Sizemore of the Virginian Pilot 
discovered that over a six-month period - except for one medical 
flight - the planes were used to haul equipment for something called 
African Development Corporation, a diamond mining operation a long 
way from Goma. African Development is owned by Pat Robertson.

Did Robertson know about the diversion of the relief planes? 
According to pilots' records, he actually flew on one plane ferrying 
equipment to

Re: [Biofuel] Cindy Sheehan: Still Not Worth It

2005-08-26 Thread John Hayes

 John Hayes wrote:
I was getting my haircut in New Haven on Tuesday and walked past a Yalie 
watering hole Barbara is known to frequent.

On a telephone pole out front, there were 2 photos of injured Iraq War 
vets. With the photos was a sign that read something to the effect of

Is it in poor taste to ask why Barbara and Jenna haven't enlisted yet?

jh

Clif Caldwell wrote:
 As a former Air Force officer I am want to weigh in on this ... but I'd 
 rather ask where I can find a source for a cheap centrifugal pump and 
 reasonable carboy containers ...
 
 A slightly cowed,
 Clif

Clif.

My sister and her husband are both Majors with the 48th MDG USAF and my 
wife's best friend is CO of the 514th Med Evac USA. Thank you for your 
service. I hope you didn't take my comments to be anti-service, as they 
were certainly not intended as such. However, the rallying cry of 
support our troops should not, and need not be a codeword for blind 
allegience to our civilian leadership.

As far a pumps go, I can't help other than to suggest Northern Tool.

http://www.northerntool.com/

Regarding carboys, check out US Plastic.

http://www.usplastic.com/

jh

___
Biofuel mailing list
Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org

Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):
http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/

Re: [Biofuel] Robertson et al VS. followers


Robert,

A question,

In many countries death threat and instigation of murdering a person
is against the criminal laws. Is it not the same in US and if, why
have they not arrested and questioned Robertson?

Hakan

At 17:13 26/08/2005, you wrote:
BT wrote:
  Greetings fellow revolutionary alchemists!
 
  The question I have is, How do we help separate the good-hearted
  followers from their devious leaders?

 I've found the best thing to do is go back to the scriptures from
whence Christians are supposed to derive standards for their behavior.
   This is especially true when the argument of you shouldn't judge
anyone comes to fore.  Now, Jesus himself said this, in the second
part of Luke 12: 48:

 From everyone who has been given much, much will be demanded; and
from one who has been entrusted with much, much more will be asked.

 Leaders, who ought to know better, are far more accountable than the
average person.





___
Biofuel mailing list
Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org

Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):
http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/

Re: [Biofuel] Robertson et al VS. followers

2005-08-26 Thread Ken Provost



--- Hakan Falk [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 
 In many countries death threat and instigation of
 murdering a person is against the criminal laws. 
 Is it not the same in US and if, why have they not
 arrested and questioned Robertson?
 


Because he is the darling of the far right Christian
fundamentalists, even tho they pretend to distance
themselves from him every time he says something
outrageous, like feminists being Satanists, or the
need to blow up the State Dept. with a nuclear
device. That last one would get any left-winger
tossed into Guantanamo till they rotted!   

-K




Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page 
http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs 
 

___
Biofuel mailing list
Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org

Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):
http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/

Re: [Biofuel] Alternative to Toxic Mold Compounds?

2005-08-26 Thread Manzo, Emil









Hi Mike. I was restoring an old car once
and made a part I couldnt afford to purchase. Try looking up a company
called Castolite (The Castolite
Company 4915 Dean St. Woodstock, IL 60098 (815) 338-4670 (815) 338-4671) they have all kinds of mold making
materials. Some are durable enough for soft metal pouring. I have made molds
out of plaster with lost-wax to do a one-off of brass. There are
lots of alternatives. Let us know what you find!





Regards,

Emil



-Original Message-
From:
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Michael Redler
Sent: Friday, August 26, 2005
10:12 AM
To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Subject: [Biofuel] Alternative to
Toxic Mold Compounds?





I know that this may fall outside the scope of our
usual discussions but, I thought there might be knowledge to gain here.

In the process of building a prototype solar tracker,
I'm stuck with a dilemma. Some of the parts I make need to be molded. So, I'm
making silicone based molds and casting the parts with two-part polyurethane.

According to the MSDS sheets, the catalyst for the
silicone mold is a tin-based compound and very toxic. The reason I started in
this directionis that it's readily available, widely used and proven to
work. When finished, I can cast parts in almost any material. I can even pour
low melt temperature metals.

I would liketo make/use a casting material from
something which is safer to me and the environment and still be durable and
weather-proof. I was making pasta the other night and found (the next morning)
a couple of pieces of spaghetti, dried and conforming to the shape of the
colander. It made me wonder if there is a casting materiel made of
carbohydrates and /or starch that I can use with a latex rubber mold.

Any thoughts?

Mike








___
Biofuel mailing list
Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org

Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):
http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/

Re: [Biofuel] temperate oilseed tree?

Hi Peter

Hi Keith ;

  You can get seeds from ECHO. Try jojoba too.

I just ordered 5,000 moringa seeds. US$150 including
shipping. At the post office now.  I'll post info on
germination rate later.

Please do.

Good luck!

Best

Keith



Best Regards,

Peter G.
Thailand


Dear Sirs

Your ordered Moringa seeds are despatched by Speed
post

No. EE749036407IN DATED 20 AUGUST, 2005

TOTAL NO. OF SEEDS ARE 5000 , 500 SEEDS IN EACH
PACKET. TOTAL NO. OF PACKETS 10

REGARDS


PARITOSH GULATI
PROJECT MANAGER
ASIAN POWER CYCLOPES
ROCHIPURA
MAJRA
DEHRADUN-248171 INDIA
PHONE :- 91-135-2620488
FAX :- 91-135-2620961
MOBILE :- 9897226101
EMAIL:-  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
  [EMAIL PROTECTED]


___
Biofuel mailing list
Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org

Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):
http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/

Re: [Biofuel] Robertson et al VS. followers

2005-08-26 Thread Robert Ingram

The other night on CNN Christpher Hitchens called Pat Robertson a babbling 
idiot and proof of unintelligent design
- Original Message - 
From: robert luis rabello [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Sent: Friday, August 26, 2005 11:13 AM
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Robertson et al VS. followers

 BT wrote:
 Greetings fellow revolutionary alchemists!

 The question I have is, How do we help separate the good-hearted
 followers from their devious leaders?

 I've found the best thing to do is go back to the scriptures from
 whence Christians are supposed to derive standards for their behavior.
  This is especially true when the argument of you shouldn't judge
 anyone comes to fore.  Now, Jesus himself said this, in the second
 part of Luke 12: 48:

 From everyone who has been given much, much will be demanded; and
 from one who has been entrusted with much, much more will be asked.

 Leaders, who ought to know better, are far more accountable than the
 average person.  When Jesus confronted the leaders of his day, he
 seldom had pleasant words for them for this very reason.  Here is an
 example:

 Make a tree good and its fruit will be good, or make a tree bad and
 its fruit will be bad, for a tree is recognized by its fruit.
 (There's a biofuel angle in there!)  You brood of vipers!  How can you
 who are evil say anything good?  For out of the overflow of the heart
 the mouth speaks.  The good man brings good things out of the good
 stored up in him, and the evil man brings evil things out of the evil
 stored up in him.  But I tell you that men will have to give account
 on the day of judgment for every careless word they have spoken.  For
 by your words you will be acquitted, and by your words you will be
 condemned.  (Matthew 12: 33 - 37)

 So, no higher authority than Jesus Christ himself condemns reckless
 rhetoric, and we who call ourselves Christians should not soft pedal
 this kind of behavior either.  A man like Pat Robertson, who CLAIMS to
 be a Christian, should have read statements of this nature and taken
 them to heart long ago.  When I complain about this kind of problem, I
 do so because it degrades the standing of the Christian faith in the
 eyes of nonbelievers who are watching.  If I, a nobody, get upset when
 the name of God is blasphemed in this manner, shouldn't genuine
 Christian leaders roundly condemn the same behavior?  After all, this
 is what the scriptures admonish:

 Live such good lives among the pagans that, though they accuse you
 of wrongdoing, they may see your good deeds and glorify God on the day
 he visits us.  (1 Peter 2: 12)

 And elsewhere:

 But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there
 WILL BE FALSE TEACHERS AMONG YOU.  (Emphasis is mine.)  They will
 secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the Sovereign
 Lord who bought them--bringing swift destruction on themselves.  Many
 will follow their shameful ways and will bring the way of truth into
 disrepute.  In their greed, these teachers will exploit you with
 stories they have made up . . .  (2 Peter 2: 1 - 3)

 The fact that Pat Robertson calls himself a Christian disgusts me for
 this very reason.  He's not following the example of Jesus Christ, so
 by his actions, he denies Christ.  If he's impulsive and can't control
 himself, he has no power from God.  A person who calls himself a
 Christian is one who should know God very well.  Therefore:

 We know that we have come to know him if we obey his commands.  The
 man who says, 'I know him', but does not do what he commands is a liar
 and the truth is not in him.  But if anyone obeys his word, God's love
 is truly made complete in him.  This is how we know we are in him:
 Whoever claims to live in him must walk as Jesus did.  (1 John 2: 3 - 6)

 So then, if we examine what Jesus did, we will find a man who never
 sought harm for anyone else.  He was a man who lived by high principle
 and spoke very carefully.  He did not advocate violence, he did not
 stir up a mob to overthrow the Romans, he did not seek political power
 or financial gain.  Therefore, if you see someone who claims to be a
 Christian doing these things, you can KNOW that he's a liar.  Further
 on, you can read this:

 Anyone who hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no
 murderer has eternal life in him.  (1 John 3: 15)

 Now, I know that these faux Christians will say Those verses only
 apply to your Christian brother, because that's what they're
 programmed to say by the false teachers they follow.  But the
 principles that Christians should follow transcend this worldly
 attitude.  Once again, here's what Jesus actually taught:

 You have heard that it was said, 'Love your neighbor and hate your
 enemy.  But I tell you: Love your enemies and pray for those who
 persecute you that you may be sons of your Father in heaven.  He
 causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the
 righteous and the unrighteous.

Re: [Biofuel] switchable permanent magnets? was Magnetic boots

2005-08-26 Thread Alt.EnergyNetwork

OK thanks Cris.
That still would'nt be practical for those NASA boots though would it. Adding 
electromagnets and a power supply 
would be bulky and inefficient at the very least.
Just thinking out loud here but couldn't an electromagnet be combined with a 
so called magnet motor to
help the magnets get by the stick points? 
regards
tallex



Get your daily alternative energy news
Alternate Energy Resource Network
  1000+ news sources-resources
 updated daily
http://www.alternate-energy.net


---Original Message---
 From: Chris Lloyd [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Subject: Re: [Biofuel] switchable permanent magnets? was Magnetic boots
 Sent: 25 Aug '05 11:51
 
  How do you turn off a permanent magnet electronically? 
  
  Hi Tallex, permanent magnets are laid in the track and used by the
  signalling system on British Rail. (AWS) To turn off the permanent
  magnet the electro magnet which lays along side the permanent is
  activated and swamps the magnetic field. As you rightly say it does not
  turn off the field, just cancels it out.   Chris.
  
  
  
  
  
  

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/next_generation_grid

 news  resources  forums

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/tomorrow-energy



Alternative Energy Politics

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Alternative_Energy_Politics/

  
  
  ___
  Biofuel mailing list
  Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
  http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org
  
  Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
  http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
  
  Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):
  http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
  
  
---Original Message---

___
Biofuel mailing list
Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org

Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):
http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/

Re: [Biofuel] Removing water from WVO

2005-08-26 Thread Manzo, Emil

Thanks Kieth. You know how newbies get so enthusiastic digesting
information at lightning speed and missing a lot? After reading what
Dave states and from the other links, the polymer will work for free
water that has separated but not for water that is combined with the
impurities left from incomplete processing. It is becoming clear to me
that accurate testing and processing of your WVO will save time, money
and yields a better product. My old IDI lister-types will probably be OK
on the filtered and settled WVO straight but not my other DI engines.
More to learn.   

Regards,
Emil

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Keith Addison
Sent: Thursday, August 25, 2005 11:47 PM
To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Removing water from WVO

Have a look at what Dale says about it here:

Removing the water
http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_make.html#water

Best wishes

Keith


Emil

I was thinking about something like that a few months ago but stayed 
away from it because I felt that this forum would have covered it 
already if it was worth doing.
The minds here are great and that product is not new.
I guess I will join you in venturing into that area.
Thanks for getting my mental juices going again in that area.'
Good Luck
Roy

Manzo, Emil [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

Greetings. Has anyone tried using an absorptive polymer to remove 
water from WVO? It is a cheap product that is used in sandy soils to 
increase water retention for plants. It is also used in products 
that remove water from the bottom of fuel tanks at gas stations. I 
think one brand is called water sock. The WVO could be pumped 
through a vessel containing the crystals as it was being filtered. 
The crystals expand with water and turn to jello then they can be 
dried out in the sun and reused. There is a similar product used in 
diapers but that is starch based and wouldn't work as well. If it 
works, we might save time and energy removing water. Am I making 
sense to anyone?





Regards,

Emil





Roy Washbish


___
Biofuel mailing list
Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.or
g

Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000
messages):
http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/


___
Biofuel mailing list
Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org

Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):
http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/

Re: [Biofuel] How to make ehtanol, second try.......

2005-08-26 Thread Manick Harris

Hi,
I sent a mail showing how to make ethanol from molasses but it bounced from hotmail mailbox. Email me again when the mailbox is not full. The email is 2 bitmaps with diagrams and method of manufacture composed from MS paint.Michael Redler [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:




"Hello there! This is the second time I post this question, since nobody responded to the first time, please advice!"

(some) links to Books, equipment, videos
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel_library/ethanol_manual/manual1-2.html

http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel_library/ethanol_motherearth/meCh9.html
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel_library/ethanol_manual/manual14.html
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel_library/ethanol_sawdust.html
http://www.amphora-society.com/
http://www.gin-vodka.com/
http://buffalo-creek-press.com/
http://www.moonshine-still.com/page2.htm
http://www.homedistiller.org/
I haven't thoroughly researched the last four sites but, at a glance they looked fine. The Amphora Society is mentioned in various distillers discussion groups and has not received any negative comments to my knowledge.
Good luck!
Mike___Biofuel mailing listBiofuel@sustainablelists.orghttp://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.orgBiofuel at Journey to Forever:http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlSearch the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/__Do You Yahoo!?Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ___
Biofuel mailing list
Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org

Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):
http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/

Re: [Biofuel] Robertson et al VS. followers

Hakan Falk wrote:

 Robert,
 
 A question,
 
 In many countries death threat and instigation of murdering a person
 is against the criminal laws. Is it not the same in US and if, why
 have they not arrested and questioned Robertson?


At the very least, such a threat would cross the threshold of 
assault, provided that Mr. Robertson had the means at his disposal to 
carry out his intention.  Even though his followers are legion, he 
really LACKS the power to do anything more than influence his minions 
to send money, or vote a certain way.  Therefore the question is this: 
  Who will press charges under American law?

Many of us over here consider Pat Robertson and other evangelists 
of his ilk little more than buffoons not worthy of serious 
consideration.  (He could probably plead insanity to any such charge 
anyway and list a mountain of evidence in support of his claim.)  In 
that light, it's simply not worth taxpayer money to bother.


robert luis rabello
The Edge of Justice
Adventure for Your Mind
http://www.newadventure.ca

Ranger Supercharger Project Page
http://www.members.shaw.ca/rabello/



___
Biofuel mailing list
Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org

Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):
http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/

Re: [Biofuel] DSE web site

2005-08-26 Thread Chris Lloyd

 Do you mean John Nicholson's Biopower stuff Chris? 

Hi Keith, No idea I just caught part of a news item while channel
changing. The reporter was telling about this chap who collected all the
old cooking oil in his area, mixed it with an additive (some sort of
catalyst) then left it to settle. Skimmed off the clean stuff and used
it. It was seeing that news clip that made me join this list.
Chris  



-- 
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
Version: 7.0.344 / Virus Database: 267.10.15/82 - Release Date:
25/08/2005
 


___
Biofuel mailing list
Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org

Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):
http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/

Re: [Biofuel] Robertson et al VS. followers

2005-08-26 Thread TarynToo

Amen Robert!

While not a christian, I've read many of the major scriptures of the 
world. While reading the Robertson thread, I was thinking how badly we 
needed to hear the Who would Jesus hate? Who would Jesus kill? 
message.

Your message is so on target. The most important teaching we receive, 
not just from Jesus, but from almost all prophets is Deeds are greater 
than words. Love the least, as you love the great. Power demands 
responsibility. If we are to follow their teachings, we must not tend 
the church, we must tend our hearts and minds, and the whole world.

All it takes to distinguish the truly good from the hypocrite, is to 
attend to their actions more than their words. How sad that so many of 
us are deceived by the transparent and self-serving lies of our 
political, spiritual, and commercial masters.

We are slaves, the truth will set us free.
Thank you, Taryn
ornae.com


On Aug 26, 2005, at 11:13 AM, robert luis rabello wrote:

 BT wrote:
 Greetings fellow revolutionary alchemists!

 The question I have is, How do we help separate the good-hearted
 followers from their devious leaders?

   I've found the best thing to do is go back to the scriptures from
 whence Christians are supposed to derive standards for their behavior.
   This is especially true when the argument of you shouldn't judge
 anyone comes to fore.  Now, Jesus himself said this, in the second
 part of Luke 12: 48:

   From everyone who has been given much, much will be demanded; and
 from one who has been entrusted with much, much more will be asked.

   Leaders, who ought to know better, are far more accountable than the
 average person.  When Jesus confronted the leaders of his day, he
 seldom had pleasant words for them for this very reason.  Here is an
 example:

   Make a tree good and its fruit will be good, or make a tree bad and
 its fruit will be bad, for a tree is recognized by its fruit.
 (There's a biofuel angle in there!)  You brood of vipers!  How can you
 who are evil say anything good?  For out of the overflow of the heart
 the mouth speaks.  The good man brings good things out of the good
 stored up in him, and the evil man brings evil things out of the evil
 stored up in him.  But I tell you that men will have to give account
 on the day of judgment for every careless word they have spoken.  For
 by your words you will be acquitted, and by your words you will be
 condemned.  (Matthew 12: 33 - 37)

   So, no higher authority than Jesus Christ himself condemns reckless
 rhetoric, and we who call ourselves Christians should not soft pedal
 this kind of behavior either.  A man like Pat Robertson, who CLAIMS to
 be a Christian, should have read statements of this nature and taken
 them to heart long ago.  When I complain about this kind of problem, I
 do so because it degrades the standing of the Christian faith in the
 eyes of nonbelievers who are watching.  If I, a nobody, get upset when
 the name of God is blasphemed in this manner, shouldn't genuine
 Christian leaders roundly condemn the same behavior?  After all, this
 is what the scriptures admonish:

   Live such good lives among the pagans that, though they accuse you
 of wrongdoing, they may see your good deeds and glorify God on the day
 he visits us.  (1 Peter 2: 12)

   And elsewhere:

   But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there
 WILL BE FALSE TEACHERS AMONG YOU.  (Emphasis is mine.)  They will
 secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the Sovereign
 Lord who bought them--bringing swift destruction on themselves.  Many
 will follow their shameful ways and will bring the way of truth into
 disrepute.  In their greed, these teachers will exploit you with
 stories they have made up . . .  (2 Peter 2: 1 - 3)

   The fact that Pat Robertson calls himself a Christian disgusts me for
 this very reason.  He's not following the example of Jesus Christ, so
 by his actions, he denies Christ.  If he's impulsive and can't control
 himself, he has no power from God.  A person who calls himself a
 Christian is one who should know God very well.  Therefore:

   We know that we have come to know him if we obey his commands.  The
 man who says, 'I know him', but does not do what he commands is a liar
 and the truth is not in him.  But if anyone obeys his word, God's love
 is truly made complete in him.  This is how we know we are in him:
 Whoever claims to live in him must walk as Jesus did.  (1 John 2: 3 - 
 6)

   So then, if we examine what Jesus did, we will find a man who never
 sought harm for anyone else.  He was a man who lived by high principle
 and spoke very carefully.  He did not advocate violence, he did not
 stir up a mob to overthrow the Romans, he did not seek political power
 or financial gain.  Therefore, if you see someone who claims to be a
 Christian doing these things, you can KNOW that he's a liar.  Further
 on, you can read this:

   Anyone who hates

Re: [Biofuel] Robertson et al VS. followers

2005-08-26 Thread Robert Ingram

Robertson will never be arrested Rummy says this is a free country and 
everyon has the right to free speeech and besides we have laws a ginst 
killing people . He failed to mention the thousands of dead American service 
men and Iraqui citizens and Robertson owns George Bush sometimes known as 
Satans Little Stooge
- Original Message - 
From: Hakan Falk [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Sent: Friday, August 26, 2005 1:13 PM
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Robertson et al VS. followers

 Robert,

 A question,

 In many countries death threat and instigation of murdering a person
 is against the criminal laws. Is it not the same in US and if, why
 have they not arrested and questioned Robertson?

 Hakan

 At 17:13 26/08/2005, you wrote:
BT wrote:
  Greetings fellow revolutionary alchemists!

  The question I have is, How do we help separate the good-hearted
  followers from their devious leaders?

 I've found the best thing to do is go back to the scriptures from
whence Christians are supposed to derive standards for their behavior.
   This is especially true when the argument of you shouldn't judge
anyone comes to fore.  Now, Jesus himself said this, in the second
part of Luke 12: 48:

 From everyone who has been given much, much will be demanded; 
 and
from one who has been entrusted with much, much more will be asked.

 Leaders, who ought to know better, are far more accountable than 
 the
average person.

 ___
 Biofuel mailing list
 Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
 http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org

 Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
 http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

 Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 
 messages):
 http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/

___
Biofuel mailing list
Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org

Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):
http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/

Re: [Biofuel] Robertson et al VS. followers

2005-08-26 Thread David Miller

Hakan Falk wrote:

Robert,

A question,

In many countries death threat and instigation of murdering a person
is against the criminal laws. Is it not the same in US and if, why
have they not arrested and questioned Robertson?
  


It's tempting to reply to the effect that he's a supporter of Bush and 
the neocon agenda, but that's irrelevent.

I've read the quotes, and I've never liked Robertson.  That said, he 
never made a threat agains Chavez.  He never asked any of his followers 
to kill the man.  He offered his unsolicited opinion that the CIA should 
assasinate him.

Suggesting that a government agency should kill a foreign leader may be 
stupid, mean, immoral, and a number of other things, but it's not 
illegal to offer a mean, stupid, and immoral opinion.

If he were funding an undercover operation to kill someone - anyone - 
then he could be arrested under any number of laws.  But we're very 
short on evidence that's the case, and long on rhetoric about his 
hypocritic nature.

I'm not trying to support the man, just trying to inject a little reason 
back into the discussion.

--- David

___
Biofuel mailing list
Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org

Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):
http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/

Re: [Biofuel] Robertson et al VS. followers


David,

So it is legal in US to suggest that a man should be assassinated?
What if Chavez is murdered is murdered and CIA is behind it, will he
not be pursued for suggesting it?

I know that it is against US law to have any agency to kill a leader of
an other Nation. This means also that Robertson is instigating a crime,
by suggesting it. Why is he not in jail?

Hakan

At 19:41 26/08/2005, you wrote:
Hakan Falk wrote:

 Robert,
 
 A question,
 
 In many countries death threat and instigation of murdering a person
 is against the criminal laws. Is it not the same in US and if, why
 have they not arrested and questioned Robertson?
 
 

It's tempting to reply to the effect that he's a supporter of Bush and
the neocon agenda, but that's irrelevent.

I've read the quotes, and I've never liked Robertson.  That said, he
never made a threat agains Chavez.  He never asked any of his followers
to kill the man.  He offered his unsolicited opinion that the CIA should
assasinate him.

Suggesting that a government agency should kill a foreign leader may be
stupid, mean, immoral, and a number of other things, but it's not
illegal to offer a mean, stupid, and immoral opinion.

If he were funding an undercover operation to kill someone - anyone -
then he could be arrested under any number of laws.  But we're very
short on evidence that's the case, and long on rhetoric about his
hypocritic nature.

I'm not trying to support the man, just trying to inject a little reason
back into the discussion.

--- David



___
Biofuel mailing list
Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org

Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):
http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/

Re: [Biofuel] Robertson et al VS. followers

2005-08-26 Thread Clif Caldwell

Wow and to think that I was going to use this list only to figure out 
how to titrate WVO correctly.
At the risk at attracting perhaps merited flames ..
Where is the outrage at the coverage of the war in Iraq ?
Have you heard one positive story on NPR or anywhere else ?
Where is the outrage at the fine work Michael Moore and numerous others 
are doing at peddling lies ?
Where is the outrage when fine mothers, sisters, sons and fathers who 
are proud of the service their sons and daughters are offering in the 
Armed Services are not given any voice and one heartbroken mother is 
given weeks of press coverage because she is against the war in Irag ?
And finally a point that may need some attention by the Men of God 
judicatory committee on this list :
Where is the outrage at allowing Muslim clerics right here in America to 
daily call for the UTTER destruction of not only Americans who believe 
that Allah may not be the way, but also any other infidels?

All I'm saying is that I for one  feel compelled to be very conscious of 
my own blind spots as I am chief among those who can stand only by 
grace .

Just a thought to further take this list into a land far away from 
renewable energy sources.

In need of clarity,
Clif

TarynToo wrote:

Amen Robert!

While not a christian, I've read many of the major scriptures of the 
world. While reading the Robertson thread, I was thinking how badly we 
needed to hear the Who would Jesus hate? Who would Jesus kill? 
message.

Your message is so on target. The most important teaching we receive, 
not just from Jesus, but from almost all prophets is Deeds are greater 
than words. Love the least, as you love the great. Power demands 
responsibility. If we are to follow their teachings, we must not tend 
the church, we must tend our hearts and minds, and the whole world.

All it takes to distinguish the truly good from the hypocrite, is to 
attend to their actions more than their words. How sad that so many of 
us are deceived by the transparent and self-serving lies of our 
political, spiritual, and commercial masters.

We are slaves, the truth will set us free.
Thank you, Taryn
ornae.com


On Aug 26, 2005, at 11:13 AM, robert luis rabello wrote:

  

BT wrote:


Greetings fellow revolutionary alchemists!

The question I have is, How do we help separate the good-hearted
followers from their devious leaders?
  

  I've found the best thing to do is go back to the scriptures from
whence Christians are supposed to derive standards for their behavior.
  This is especially true when the argument of you shouldn't judge
anyone comes to fore.  Now, Jesus himself said this, in the second
part of Luke 12: 48:

  From everyone who has been given much, much will be demanded; and
from one who has been entrusted with much, much more will be asked.

  Leaders, who ought to know better, are far more accountable than the
average person.  When Jesus confronted the leaders of his day, he
seldom had pleasant words for them for this very reason.  Here is an
example:

  Make a tree good and its fruit will be good, or make a tree bad and
its fruit will be bad, for a tree is recognized by its fruit.
(There's a biofuel angle in there!)  You brood of vipers!  How can you
who are evil say anything good?  For out of the overflow of the heart
the mouth speaks.  The good man brings good things out of the good
stored up in him, and the evil man brings evil things out of the evil
stored up in him.  But I tell you that men will have to give account
on the day of judgment for every careless word they have spoken.  For
by your words you will be acquitted, and by your words you will be
condemned.  (Matthew 12: 33 - 37)

  So, no higher authority than Jesus Christ himself condemns reckless
rhetoric, and we who call ourselves Christians should not soft pedal
this kind of behavior either.  A man like Pat Robertson, who CLAIMS to
be a Christian, should have read statements of this nature and taken
them to heart long ago.  When I complain about this kind of problem, I
do so because it degrades the standing of the Christian faith in the
eyes of nonbelievers who are watching.  If I, a nobody, get upset when
the name of God is blasphemed in this manner, shouldn't genuine
Christian leaders roundly condemn the same behavior?  After all, this
is what the scriptures admonish:

  Live such good lives among the pagans that, though they accuse you
of wrongdoing, they may see your good deeds and glorify God on the day
he visits us.  (1 Peter 2: 12)

  And elsewhere:

  But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there
WILL BE FALSE TEACHERS AMONG YOU.  (Emphasis is mine.)  They will
secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the Sovereign
Lord who bought them--bringing swift destruction on themselves.  Many
will follow their shameful ways and will bring the way of truth into
disrepute.  In their greed, these teachers will exploit you with
stories

Re: [Biofuel] DSE web site

Hi Chris

  Do you mean John Nicholson's Biopower stuff Chris? 

Hi Keith, No idea I just caught part of a news item while channel
changing. The reporter was telling about this chap who collected all the
old cooking oil in his area, mixed it with an additive (some sort of
catalyst) then left it to settle. Skimmed off the clean stuff and used
it. It was seeing that news clip that made me join this list.

:-) And welcome you are. I think you may have had a lucky escape, 
good timing there with the bad timing with the channel switcher.

Best

Keith


Chris


___
Biofuel mailing list
Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org

Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):
http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/

Re: [Biofuel] Robertson et al VS. followers

2005-08-26 Thread David Miller

Hakan Falk wrote:

David,

So it is legal in US to suggest that a man should be assassinated?
  


I expect that's covered under free speech.

I'd personally rate Robertsons comments as up there with any number of 
people who advocate the death of Bush for crimes against humanity or 
somesuch.  If Bush were assasinated would these people really be 
responsible?

It's legal in the US to hold an opinion that someone should be killed.  
It's legal to express that opinion.  Bear in mind, of course, that IANAL.

It crosses the line when it becomes inciting to violence or something 
clearer, like paying someone to perform the murder.

What if Chavez is murdered is murdered and CIA is behind it, will he
not be pursued for suggesting it?
  

I don't believe so.  The idea that the CIA would do something because 
this nut thought it was a good idea is laughable.

Take a step back and listen to yourself.  Does anyone on this list thing 
anyone at the CIA is going to wake up and say HEY!  Robertson thinks we 
should assasinate a foreign head of state!  Guess we'd better start 
laying plans

C'mon, that's just silly.

I know that it is against US law to have any agency to kill a leader of
an other Nation. This means also that Robertson is instigating a crime,
by suggesting it. Why is he not in jail?
  


He's not instigating a crime.  He's not causing a crime to be 
committed.  He's not soliciting anyone to commit the crime.  He's not 
offering money or other reward for the crime, he's not issuing a 
challenge to his followers that one of them should go kill the man.

He's expressing a moronic, immoral opinion, not calling people to 
action.  I'm not trying to support Robertson, just trying to defend free 
speech.  You see if you want to be able to speak freely you have to let 
others do so too, even if you don't like what they say.

And I'd suggest that people here think along those lines.  If expressing 
the opinion that a criminal act would  have a desirable outcome becomes 
a crime then free speech no longer exists.  IE, if someone suggests that 
the world would be a better place without Bush are you calling for a 
crime to be committed and subject to arrest?  In the US we call that 
dissent, and the government may be trying to extinguish it but they 
haven't yet succeeded.  Lets not give them any ammo in their efforts.

--- David



___
Biofuel mailing list
Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org

Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):
http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/

Re: [Biofuel] Robertson et al VS. followers

Clif Caldwell wrote:

 Wow and to think that I was going to use this list only to figure out 
 how to titrate WVO correctly.
 At the risk at attracting perhaps merited flames ..
 Where is the outrage at the coverage of the war in Iraq ?

There's a lot of this kind of discussion in the archives.

 Have you heard one positive story on NPR or anywhere else ?

Well, initially the news coverage seemed almost gleeful.  The news, 
however, has been getting more and more grim.  Perhaps the early flush 
of military success made some people believe that our mission in Iraq 
would be accomplished with little bloodshed.  (Did anyone with a 
serious knowledge of our capability to project power ever believe we 
would have difficulty rolling over the Iraqi army?  They made the most 
inept defense of a nation I can recall.)  Now, however, we're dealing 
with the harsh reality of trying to unify a nation long held together 
by force.  I, for one, never doubted we could defeat the Iraqi army. 
I, for one, never believed we could defeat the Iraqi people.

 Where is the outrage at the fine work Michael Moore and numerous others 
 are doing at peddling lies ?

Lies?  Hmm . . .  I'll let Todd handle that one.

 Where is the outrage when fine mothers, sisters, sons and fathers who 
 are proud of the service their sons and daughters are offering in the 
 Armed Services are not given any voice and one heartbroken mother is 
 given weeks of press coverage because she is against the war in Irag ?

I've found news coverage in the United States astonishingly pro war. 
  For a long time, it seemed that very few voices were being raised in 
opposition, and those of us who DID speak out were being shouted down 
by a strong militarist sentiment that seemed pervasive in the United 
States.  This is another topic we've discussed here many times.

Having written this, please don't confuse my opposition to the war 
with opposition to individual soldiers.


 And finally a point that may need some attention by the Men of God 
 judicatory committee on this list :
 Where is the outrage at allowing Muslim clerics right here in America to 
 daily call for the UTTER destruction of not only Americans who believe 
 that Allah may not be the way, but also any other infidels?

You will find a very strong thread of sentiment among most people who 
post here that decries fundamentalism in any form.  However, this is 
also an international list, and some of the discussion here has 
included an examination of WHY radical Islam has captured the 
imagination of so many people.  Most of us Americans don't like to 
hear some of these things.  Though I often find them hard to read, 
listening has opened my mind to a perspective that differs radically 
from my own.

Now, if we were behaving as a truly Christian nation, the world 
would be a very different place, and I believe we would not be 
inciting the wrath of so many citizens in other countries.


 All I'm saying is that I for one  feel compelled to be very conscious of 
 my own blind spots as I am chief among those who can stand only by 
 grace .

Indeed, as we all are.


 Just a thought to further take this list into a land far away from 
 renewable energy sources.
 

Some of these issues may seem tangential at first.  Close 
examination, however, will reveal how energy use, foreign policy, 
religious perspective, racism and many other isms blend to create 
the overall milieu in which the topic of biofuels exist.  We who have 
been here for any length of time agree by consensus that which is 
deserving of discussion and that which is not.  It's remarkably self 
regulating, for the most part.

Do you disagree with anything I've posted concerning men of God and 
the scriptures?  Do you not see the relationship between oil reserves 
in Venezuela and Mr. Robertson's political posturing?  In this thread, 
we have the realms of religion and politics blending quite clearly 
with an underlying need to access the world's energy supplies; by 
force, if necessary.  Deal with the energy use issue, and the 
compelling need to complain about Chavez will go away.


robert luis rabello
The Edge of Justice
Adventure for Your Mind
http://www.newadventure.ca

Ranger Supercharger Project Page
http://www.members.shaw.ca/rabello/



___
Biofuel mailing list
Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org

Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):
http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/

Re: [Biofuel] Robertson et al VS. followers

Clif Caldwell wrote:

Wow and to think that I was going to use this list only to figure out 
how to titrate WVO correctly.
At the risk at attracting perhaps merited flames ..
Where is the outrage at the coverage of the war in Iraq ?
  

I am a US citizen and I am outraged.  I believe we need a massive 
demonstration mach on Washington DC to
make our voices heard.

Have you heard one positive story on NPR or anywhere else ?
  

There are plenty of stories in The Washington Post and even in the NY 
Times that have documented some positives aspects.
Unfortunately, the war has been a fiasco.  The Bush administration had 
no plans as to what to do after the invasion, and in fact
actively and anrgrily denounced any attempts to work out a post-conflict 
reconstruction plan prior to the invasion.   They've brought this on 
themselves, us, and the citizens of Iraq.

Where is the outrage at the fine work Michael Moore and numerous others 
are doing at peddling lies ?
  

Which lies are you talking about?  It's easy to rant - how about some 
specifics?

Where is the outrage when fine mothers, sisters, sons and fathers who 
are proud of the service their sons and daughters are offering in the 
Armed Services are not given any voice and one heartbroken mother is 
given weeks of press coverage because she is against the war in Irag ?
  

When the evening news rolls the names of those killed in combat in Iraq, 
respectfully, in silence, the response from the neocons is that
they're focusing on the bad things.  The Post has run three (just from 
memory) front page stories about local soldiers and their families and 
the services they receive.  And I wonder how the Tillman family feels, 
if you want to talk about lies?

You are upset because she is exercising her right to free speech?

And finally a point that may need some attention by the Men of God 
judicatory committee on this list :
Where is the outrage at allowing Muslim clerics right here in America to 
daily call for the UTTER destruction of not only Americans who believe 
that Allah may not be the way, but also any other infidels?
  

Islam has its crackpots; Christianity has Pat Robertson.  I don't defend 
either one.

All I'm saying is that I for one  feel compelled to be very conscious of 
my own blind spots as I am chief among those who can stand only by 
grace .

Just a thought to further take this list into a land far away from 
renewable energy sources.

In need of clarity,
Clif

TarynToo wrote:

  

Amen Robert!

While not a christian, I've read many of the major scriptures of the 
world. While reading the Robertson thread, I was thinking how badly we 
needed to hear the Who would Jesus hate? Who would Jesus kill? 
message.

Your message is so on target. The most important teaching we receive, 
not just from Jesus, but from almost all prophets is Deeds are greater 
than words. Love the least, as you love the great. Power demands 
responsibility. If we are to follow their teachings, we must not tend 
the church, we must tend our hearts and minds, and the whole world.

All it takes to distinguish the truly good from the hypocrite, is to 
attend to their actions more than their words. How sad that so many of 
us are deceived by the transparent and self-serving lies of our 
political, spiritual, and commercial masters.

We are slaves, the truth will set us free.
Thank you, Taryn
ornae.com


On Aug 26, 2005, at 11:13 AM, robert luis rabello wrote:

 



BT wrote:
   

  

Greetings fellow revolutionary alchemists!

The question I have is, How do we help separate the good-hearted
followers from their devious leaders?
 



 I've found the best thing to do is go back to the scriptures from
whence Christians are supposed to derive standards for their behavior.
 This is especially true when the argument of you shouldn't judge
anyone comes to fore.  Now, Jesus himself said this, in the second
part of Luke 12: 48:

 From everyone who has been given much, much will be demanded; and
  

from one who has been entrusted with much, much more will be asked.


 Leaders, who ought to know better, are far more accountable than the
average person.  When Jesus confronted the leaders of his day, he
seldom had pleasant words for them for this very reason.  Here is an
example:

 Make a tree good and its fruit will be good, or make a tree bad and
its fruit will be bad, for a tree is recognized by its fruit.
(There's a biofuel angle in there!)  You brood of vipers!  How can you
who are evil say anything good?  For out of the overflow of the heart
the mouth speaks.  The good man brings good things out of the good
stored up in him, and the evil man brings evil things out of the evil
stored up in him.  But I tell you that men will have to give account
on the day of judgment for every careless word they have spoken.  For
by your words you will be acquitted, and by your words you will be
condemned.  (Matthew 12: 33 - 37)

 So, no

Re: [Biofuel] Robertson et al VS. followers

Speaking of outrage, I thought the Mission Accomplished news stunt was 
pretty outrageous.

robert luis rabello wrote:

Clif Caldwell wrote:

  

Wow and to think that I was going to use this list only to figure out 
how to titrate WVO correctly.
At the risk at attracting perhaps merited flames ..
Where is the outrage at the coverage of the war in Iraq ?



   There's a lot of this kind of discussion in the archives.

  

Have you heard one positive story on NPR or anywhere else ?



   Well, initially the news coverage seemed almost gleeful.  The news, 
however, has been getting more and more grim.  Perhaps the early flush 
of military success made some people believe that our mission in Iraq 
would be accomplished with little bloodshed.  (Did anyone with a 
serious knowledge of our capability to project power ever believe we 
would have difficulty rolling over the Iraqi army?  They made the most 
inept defense of a nation I can recall.)  Now, however, we're dealing 
with the harsh reality of trying to unify a nation long held together 
by force.  I, for one, never doubted we could defeat the Iraqi army. 
I, for one, never believed we could defeat the Iraqi people.

  

Where is the outrage at the fine work Michael Moore and numerous others 
are doing at peddling lies ?



   Lies?  Hmm . . .  I'll let Todd handle that one.

  

Where is the outrage when fine mothers, sisters, sons and fathers who 
are proud of the service their sons and daughters are offering in the 
Armed Services are not given any voice and one heartbroken mother is 
given weeks of press coverage because she is against the war in Irag ?



   I've found news coverage in the United States astonishingly pro war. 
  For a long time, it seemed that very few voices were being raised in 
opposition, and those of us who DID speak out were being shouted down 
by a strong militarist sentiment that seemed pervasive in the United 
States.  This is another topic we've discussed here many times.

   Having written this, please don't confuse my opposition to the war 
with opposition to individual soldiers.


  

And finally a point that may need some attention by the Men of God 
judicatory committee on this list :
Where is the outrage at allowing Muslim clerics right here in America to 
daily call for the UTTER destruction of not only Americans who believe 
that Allah may not be the way, but also any other infidels?



   You will find a very strong thread of sentiment among most people who 
post here that decries fundamentalism in any form.  However, this is 
also an international list, and some of the discussion here has 
included an examination of WHY radical Islam has captured the 
imagination of so many people.  Most of us Americans don't like to 
hear some of these things.  Though I often find them hard to read, 
listening has opened my mind to a perspective that differs radically 
from my own.

   Now, if we were behaving as a truly Christian nation, the world 
would be a very different place, and I believe we would not be 
inciting the wrath of so many citizens in other countries.


  

All I'm saying is that I for one  feel compelled to be very conscious of 
my own blind spots as I am chief among those who can stand only by 
grace .



   Indeed, as we all are.


  

Just a thought to further take this list into a land far away from 
renewable energy sources.




   Some of these issues may seem tangential at first.  Close 
examination, however, will reveal how energy use, foreign policy, 
religious perspective, racism and many other isms blend to create 
the overall milieu in which the topic of biofuels exist.  We who have 
been here for any length of time agree by consensus that which is 
deserving of discussion and that which is not.  It's remarkably self 
regulating, for the most part.

   Do you disagree with anything I've posted concerning men of God and 
the scriptures?  Do you not see the relationship between oil reserves 
in Venezuela and Mr. Robertson's political posturing?  In this thread, 
we have the realms of religion and politics blending quite clearly 
with an underlying need to access the world's energy supplies; by 
force, if necessary.  Deal with the energy use issue, and the 
compelling need to complain about Chavez will go away.


robert luis rabello
The Edge of Justice
Adventure for Your Mind
http://www.newadventure.ca

Ranger Supercharger Project Page
http://www.members.shaw.ca/rabello/



___
Biofuel mailing list
Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org

Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):
http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
  



___
Biofuel mailing list

[Biofuel] Pat Robertson's business affiliation with Hugo Chavez

2005-08-26 Thread Andy Karpay

I sent a letter (email) to the 700 club asking that they take Mr.
Robertson off the air, as he offended us all.  I got a response back
from them with about a 2 page dance-around in his defense which included
direct quotes from his statement.  One of the telling remarks was that
he (Robertson) had no fear of losing oil from Venezuela on Chavez's
demise.  Oh, so I am to infer that, if we WERE to lose oil shipments
from them it might be a bad thing to kill him?  It's all about the oil
(pronounced M-O-N-E-Y).  

It was stated here earlier, but the US is responsible for Allende's
death in Chile (1973?), Guevara's death, death in Honduras (Iran-Contra
scheme where arms were sold to Iran, our ally of the day, and the
proceeds sent to the death squads in Honduras), on and on.  
It is stated many times in this country that communism has failed
therefore it is no good.  The truth is that much of communism's failure,
in this hemisphere particularly, is due to our country's intervention to
ensure the demise of democratically elected leaders (you can, and we do
have democratic communism).  The US's fear is that if the country is
communist, then we cannot exploit the labor and resources for our own
gain, and the gain of the wealthy.  Remember, without poverty there is
no wealth.

AK


Message: 2
Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2005 09:43:32 -0400
From: Mike Weaver [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Robertson et al VS. followers
To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Message-ID: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed

I once sent them (Oral Roberts?) a brick.  They were asking for 25.00 to

buy a brick, so I sent them a letter saying I could get a much better 
price and did they want more.
Cost me something like 4.00 for 4th class postage but it was worth it.

Manick Harris wrote:

 Hi everybody,
 I do not know about Robertson, but thereare many so-called 
 'evangelists' whose sole purpose is to collect money from naive 
 believers. My late mother once donated !R 200 to a well known TV 
 evangelist.and received a hasty letter back from the guy stating that 
 it wasn't enough even for one brick. God, what kind of bricks do you 
 use anyway. The Indian evangelists often use resurrection trick to con

 target groups into parting with large amounts of cash. When one such 
 fellow who was claiming how he resurrected a corpse noticed how I was 
 frowning he turned me in anger. With these guys no public accounts are

 kept at all and everything goes into their pocket. One fellow here was

 exorcising a young girl  with her dress up and sitting on him, not 
 knowing a police party was watching him...I think anyone who collects 
 money should be accountable to prevent fraud of the divine kind. LOL

 */BT [EMAIL PROTECTED]/* wrote:

 Greetings fellow revolutionary alchemists!

 The question I have is, How do we help separate the good-hearted
 followers from their devious leaders?

 For example:
 I often forward news and interesting articles (much of which I
 find on this list, thanks to you all)  to a few friends and
 family. I never get any responses. One of my friends I know is a
 700 Club 'member' and his church preaches along the same political
 lines. After forwarding the news about Robertson's comments, I
 received this reply from my friend:
 
 He is a passionate man who speaks from his heart and who has said
 some stupid stuff in the past and probably will say some stupid
 things in the future but he apologized and that's good in my
 book.  Heck, it's alot more than most political or public figures
 would do.
  

 Is it right to call for assassination? No, and I apologize for
 that statement, Robertson said. I spoke in frustration that we
 should accommodate the man who thinks the U.S. is out to kill
him.

 http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/08/24/robertson.chavez/index.html

 
 To which I responded with a more complete quote from Robertson's
 apology, a page of links relating to Robertson's money-making
 operations in Africa (included at the bottom of this long email,
 in case anyone is interested)  and a comment:

 Obviously Pat Robertson does not have any business interests in
 common with Hugo Chavez, otherwise Robertson would be defending
 Chavez instead of condemning him.

 My friend's reply:
 --

 I heard from a story on NPR the other day regarding a current
 State Governor that when in the political spotlight and riding a
 white horse the dirt shows up easier.  Too many resources have
 been wasted on putting Pat Roberts[on] on public trial. 
 Everyone knows that he is a religous man but the primary word in
 that description is man.  He is not God.  Man makes mistakes. 
 When shadey politicians make mistakes it's OK because nobody
 expects them to be perfect.  I wish the world would focus on
 solutions to problems instead

Re: [Biofuel] Robertson et al VS. followers

Hello David

Hakan Falk wrote:

David,

So it is legal in US to suggest that a man should be assassinated?


I expect that's covered under free speech.

I'd personally rate Robertsons comments as up there with any number 
of people who advocate the death of Bush for crimes against humanity 
or somesuch.  If Bush were assasinated would these people really be 
responsible?

Maybe I didn't notice but I have not heard of anyone calling for the 
death of Bush. Excepting some of the victims of course, but not 
anybody in the US, which I think is what you're talking about.

It's legal in the US to hold an opinion that someone should be 
killed.  It's legal to express that opinion.  Bear in mind, of 
course, that IANAL.

It crosses the line when it becomes inciting to violence or 
something clearer, like paying someone to perform the murder.

What if Chavez is murdered is murdered and CIA is behind it, will he
not be pursued for suggesting it?

I don't believe so.  The idea that the CIA would do something 
because this nut thought it was a good idea is laughable.

Take a step back and listen to yourself.  Does anyone on this list 
thing anyone at the CIA is going to wake up and say HEY!  Robertson 
thinks we should assasinate a foreign head of state!  Guess we'd 
better start laying plans

C'mon, that's just silly.

I'd be surprised if there weren't at least elements within the CIA 
who're thinking the same way as Robertson. I think the administration 
thinks the same way as Robertson. A lot of people think that. I think 
Chavez thinks that too. Have a look at this:

http://www.mail-archive.com/cgi-bin/htsearch?method=andformat=shortc 
onfig=biofuel_sustainablelists_orgrestrict=exclude=words=chavez
Search results for 'chavez'
Or:
http://snipurl.com/h8up

... Chavez( hey, they tried to oust him short of killing him)... 
They tried just about everything, and the stakes are getting higher 
and higher. If you think this sort of stuff doesn't happen, then it'd 
be you who's being silly, IMHO.

http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/msg45962.html
Re: [Biofuel] Confessions of an Economic Hit Man

http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/BIOFUEL/41438/
An Interview with William Blum - The Granma Moses of Radical Writing

http://members.aol.com/superogue/homepage.htm
Rogue State: A Guide to the World's Only Superpower, by William Blum

http://members.aol.com/bblum6/American_holocaust.htm
Killing Hope: U.S. Military and CIA Interventions Since World War II,
by William Blum

http://members.aol.com/bblum6/American_holocaust.htm
The American Holocaust

... just to scratch the surface.

I know that it is against US law to have any agency to kill a leader of
an other Nation. This means also that Robertson is instigating a crime,
by suggesting it. Why is he not in jail?


He's not instigating a crime.  He's not causing a crime to be 
committed.  He's not soliciting anyone to commit the crime.  He's 
not offering money or other reward for the crime, he's not issuing a 
challenge to his followers that one of them should go kill the man.

He's expressing a moronic, immoral opinion, not calling people to 
action.  I'm not trying to support Robertson, just trying to defend 
free speech.  You see if you want to be able to speak freely you 
have to let others do so too, even if you don't like what they say.

There is no society that doesn't put restrictions on free speech, of 
necessity, and it's a very difficult line to draw. Inciting to 
violence is a case in point - it's obvious? Maybe, but it's a 
restriction of free speech just the same, and there are many others, 
along with a constantly shifting grey area.

And I'd suggest that people here think along those lines.

Nothing new to us David. But it's more than just a label, or maybe 
less. You're making a mistake in writing off much of this discussion 
as rhetoric, as you did. If you took a less blinkered look you'd 
see that a great deal of information has been provided, the list 
archives is now a good resource on Pat Robertson. Any future 
discussion here of Pat Robertson or of any similar event will be 
better informed from the start, as with many other subjects. And 
that's what's needed as a true basis for free speech - free 
information. The true enemy of free speech and all freedom is spin as 
much as fascism, IMHO, and Pat Robertson has provided us with yet 
another example of that too. Several.

If expressing the opinion that a criminal act would  have a 
desirable outcome becomes a crime then free speech no longer exists. 
IE, if someone suggests that the world would be a better place 
without Bush are you calling for a crime to be committed and subject 
to arrest?  In the US we call that dissent,

These days you (pl) call it treason as much as anything else. What's 
the punishment for treason in the US?

and the government may be trying to extinguish it but they haven't 
yet succeeded.  Lets not give them any ammo in their efforts.

I don't think we give your

Re: [Biofuel] Robertson et al VS. followers

My my. And I was just thinking you might be a man who'd do a bit of 
checking before he shot his foot off. Again. I do rather wonder what 
you mean when you say right here in America when actually where you 
are right now is right here on the global Internet, on a global 
discussion group with a global membership that includes many Muslims 
living in Muslim countries, who are probably more aware than you are 
of calls from your country - calls and deeds done - to kill them and 
their leaders. But that doesn't count, does it? It does here. If you 
want outrage over the coverage of the war in Iraq you'll find it 
aplenty, but you won't like it - it's outrage at the unquestioning, 
knee-jerk coverage your so-called liberal press (ROFL!!!) gave to 
the pack of blatant lies that led unfailingly to everything and 
everybody getting torn to pieces in Iraq (as most of us predicted at 
the time), including your precious military, and every single promise 
broken.

Wow and to think that I was going to use this list only to figure out
how to titrate WVO correctly.
At the risk at attracting perhaps merited flames ..
Where is the outrage at the coverage of the war in Iraq ?
Have you heard one positive story on NPR or anywhere else ?
Where is the outrage at the fine work Michael Moore and numerous others
are doing at peddling lies ?
Where is the outrage when fine mothers, sisters, sons and fathers who
are proud of the service their sons and daughters are offering in the
Armed Services are not given any voice and one heartbroken mother is
given weeks of press coverage because she is against the war in Irag ?
And finally a point that may need some attention by the Men of God
judicatory committee on this list :

What exactly do you mean by that?

Where is the outrage at allowing Muslim clerics right here in America to
daily call for the UTTER destruction of not only Americans who believe
that Allah may not be the way, but also any other infidels?

All I'm saying is that I for one  feel compelled to be very conscious of
my own blind spots as I am chief among those who can stand only by
grace .

Just a thought to further take this list into a land far away from
renewable energy sources.

It is not far away from renewable energy sources. I think you should 
read this carefully, since it looks as if you haven't already done so:

http://sustainablelists.org/pipermail/biofuel_sustainablelists.org/200 
5-May/07.html
Or:
http://snipurl.com/gi45

Best wishes

Keith


In need of clarity,
Clif

TarynToo wrote:

 Amen Robert!
 
 While not a christian, I've read many of the major scriptures of the
 world. While reading the Robertson thread, I was thinking how badly we
 needed to hear the Who would Jesus hate? Who would Jesus kill?
 message.
 
 Your message is so on target. The most important teaching we receive,
 not just from Jesus, but from almost all prophets is Deeds are greater
 than words. Love the least, as you love the great. Power demands
 responsibility. If we are to follow their teachings, we must not tend
 the church, we must tend our hearts and minds, and the whole world.
 
 All it takes to distinguish the truly good from the hypocrite, is to
 attend to their actions more than their words. How sad that so many of
 us are deceived by the transparent and self-serving lies of our
 political, spiritual, and commercial masters.
 
 We are slaves, the truth will set us free.
 Thank you, Taryn
 ornae.com
 
 
 On Aug 26, 2005, at 11:13 AM, robert luis rabello wrote:
 
 
 
 BT wrote:
 
 
 Greetings fellow revolutionary alchemists!
 
 The question I have is, How do we help separate the good-hearted
 followers from their devious leaders?
 
 
 I've found the best thing to do is go back to the scriptures from
 whence Christians are supposed to derive standards for their behavior.
   This is especially true when the argument of you shouldn't judge
 anyone comes to fore.  Now, Jesus himself said this, in the second
 part of Luke 12: 48:
 
 From everyone who has been given much, much will be demanded; and
 from one who has been entrusted with much, much more will be asked.
 
 Leaders, who ought to know better, are far more accountable than the
 average person.  When Jesus confronted the leaders of his day, he
 seldom had pleasant words for them for this very reason.  Here is an
 example:
 
 Make a tree good and its fruit will be good, or make a tree bad and
 its fruit will be bad, for a tree is recognized by its fruit.
 (There's a biofuel angle in there!)  You brood of vipers!  How can you
 who are evil say anything good?  For out of the overflow of the heart
 the mouth speaks.  The good man brings good things out of the good
 stored up in him, and the evil man brings evil things out of the evil
 stored up in him.  But I tell you that men will have to give account
 on the day of judgment for every careless word they have spoken.  For
 by your words you will be acquitted, and by your words you will be

Re: [Biofuel] DSE web site

2005-08-26 Thread William Adams

- Original Message - 
From: Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Sent: Thursday, August 25, 2005 8:47 PM
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] DSE web site

 Is DSE a believable site - has anyone had experience with them? My
first thought is that anything seeming too good to be true usually
is.   http://www.dieselsecret/com/products.htm

 Bob, do you TYPE urls???
Yep, but only when I can't remember to do a file,edit,copy,paste! :-)

 Oh well, no harm that it's broken. PLEASE DON'T FIX IT!

I must be really dense today.  What's broken?  I promise not to fix it! ;-)

 We recently had this comment from someone joining the list: The ad
 for Diesel Secret Energy which came up through your web site I
 think should be shut down, it has all the earmarks of a scam.

 Diesel Secret Energy at Journey to Forever? No way! Not now, not
 ever! Which he then admitted, and apologised.

 Anyway, it does indeed have all the earmarks of a scam, not the
 first, certainly not the last. It's come up here before but it's so
 obviously a scam that very few people took any notice, we've seen so
 many!

 Hey, buddy, want a cheap quick fix? It's called biodiesel. Cheap

You don't need to sell me on it. I'm a believer, but just curious also about 
other things. I've read most of JTF's good stuff

 enough, quick enough, you don't need it any cheaper and quicker than
 that. What do they often say about biodiesel? It sounds too good to
 be true... But it IS true.

 Best wishes

 Keith

 __
Thanks, Keith, I really do enjoy your comments.

With Best to you also,

Bob
West Linn, OR_
 Biofuel mailing list
 Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
 http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org

 Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
 http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

 Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 
 messages):
 http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/

___
Biofuel mailing list
Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org

Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):
http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/

Re: [Biofuel] Pat Robertson's business affiliation with Hugo Chavez

Ah,  I think Communism would've collapsed even w/o our help - it blew 
up in places even where we weren't meddling.
My own thoughts are realistic Capitalism - a reasonably regulated free 
market economy and a pragmatic federal government.
Think, oh, Finland.  I do think the Constitution allows for national 
health insurance: Quote:

We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect 
Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility 
http://www.usconstitution.net/glossary.html#DOMTRAN, provide for the 
common defence http://www.usconstitution.net/constmiss.html, promote 
the general Welfare 
http://www.usconstitution.net/glossary.html#WELFARE, and secure the 
Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity 
http://www.usconstitution.net/glossary.html#POSTERITY, do ordain 
http://www.usconstitution.net/glossary.html#ORDAIN and establish this 
Constitution for the United States of America.

Falls under general Welfare

Andy Karpay wrote:

I sent a letter (email) to the 700 club asking that they take Mr.
Robertson off the air, as he offended us all.  I got a response back
from them with about a 2 page dance-around in his defense which included
direct quotes from his statement.  One of the telling remarks was that
he (Robertson) had no fear of losing oil from Venezuela on Chavez's
demise.  Oh, so I am to infer that, if we WERE to lose oil shipments
from them it might be a bad thing to kill him?  It's all about the oil
(pronounced M-O-N-E-Y).  

It was stated here earlier, but the US is responsible for Allende's
death in Chile (1973?), Guevara's death, death in Honduras (Iran-Contra
scheme where arms were sold to Iran, our ally of the day, and the
proceeds sent to the death squads in Honduras), on and on.  
It is stated many times in this country that communism has failed
therefore it is no good.  The truth is that much of communism's failure,
in this hemisphere particularly, is due to our country's intervention to
ensure the demise of democratically elected leaders (you can, and we do
have democratic communism).  The US's fear is that if the country is
communist, then we cannot exploit the labor and resources for our own
gain, and the gain of the wealthy.  Remember, without poverty there is
no wealth.

AK


Message: 2
Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2005 09:43:32 -0400
From: Mike Weaver [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Robertson et al VS. followers
To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Message-ID: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed

I once sent them (Oral Roberts?) a brick.  They were asking for 25.00 to

buy a brick, so I sent them a letter saying I could get a much better 
price and did they want more.
Cost me something like 4.00 for 4th class postage but it was worth it.

Manick Harris wrote:

  

Hi everybody,
I do not know about Robertson, but thereare many so-called 
'evangelists' whose sole purpose is to collect money from naive 
believers. My late mother once donated !R 200 to a well known TV 
evangelist.and received a hasty letter back from the guy stating that 
it wasn't enough even for one brick. God, what kind of bricks do you 
use anyway. The Indian evangelists often use resurrection trick to con



  

target groups into parting with large amounts of cash. When one such 
fellow who was claiming how he resurrected a corpse noticed how I was 
frowning he turned me in anger. With these guys no public accounts are



  

kept at all and everything goes into their pocket. One fellow here was



  

exorcising a young girl  with her dress up and sitting on him, not 
knowing a police party was watching him...I think anyone who collects 
money should be accountable to prevent fraud of the divine kind. LOL

*/BT [EMAIL PROTECTED]/* wrote:

Greetings fellow revolutionary alchemists!

The question I have is, How do we help separate the good-hearted
followers from their devious leaders?

For example:
I often forward news and interesting articles (much of which I
find on this list, thanks to you all)  to a few friends and
family. I never get any responses. One of my friends I know is a
700 Club 'member' and his church preaches along the same political
lines. After forwarding the news about Robertson's comments, I
received this reply from my friend:

He is a passionate man who speaks from his heart and who has said
some stupid stuff in the past and probably will say some stupid
things in the future but he apologized and that's good in my
book.  Heck, it's alot more than most political or public figures
would do.
 

Is it right to call for assassination? No, and I apologize for
that statement, Robertson said. I spoke in frustration that we
should accommodate the man who thinks the U.S. is out to kill


him.
  

http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/08/24/robertson.chavez/index.html


To which I responded with a more complete quote from

Re: [Biofuel] lye

2005-08-26 Thread Ash Daminato

There are actually several Wal-Mart's that are in the process of being 
unionized/are unionized in Canada. The first one to unionize in Quebec 
was closed less than two weeks later. Wal-mart says the store wasn't 
profitable. The unions say it was to intimidate workers at other stores.

Vincent zadworny wrote:

 hi yall,
  
 all i ahve to say is at least the walmarts aren't unionized. ( doesn't 
 make them better but ...   )  and that i agree with the going to a 
 chemical shop. they will have what you need.
  
 vince z

 */Joe Street [EMAIL PROTECTED]/* wrote:

 Hi Don;

 The comment about walmart, I knew would be humorous to some on the
 list but it was serious too.  There is much interest on this list
 about fighting globalization and avoiding giving any support to
 large multinational corporations.  Many folks I come across seem
 to think biodiesel is a license to go on with the same world view
 and attitude but just for cheaper and better for the air (as a
 side benefit almost).  I hope you didn't feel stung by my little
 joke, and welcome to the list BTW.
 Try to find a local chemical supply house.  Look in the yellow
 pages under chemical.  Avoid things like drain cleaner which are
 not pure enough for the BD process.  You can find small quantities
 of lye intended for soap making which are pure but cost more than
 you should be paying.  Also avoid buying a huge bulk quantity
 which may seem the best economy, because you will need to use it
 before it absorbs moisture and degrades (gets kinda chalky white).
 Most commonly (around here) it looks like little spheres that are
 cut in half , white but not paper white,(that is old stuff) it is
 kind of translucent a little bit. Same goes for the alcohol.  It
 must be very pure and dry (no water content)  Some folks seem to
 be getting it from shops that cater to performance cars and drag
 racing.  I also found a supply in the phone book yellow pages.
 Support small local shops if possible.  I know this is a bit of a
 goofy statement when it comes to chemicals that are manufactured
 far away most likely by a huge company who doesn't have the
 environment as the number one priority but walmart is just pure evil.

 Joe

 don lyon wrote:

 Joe what I was looking for was a little help on how to make this
 bio-diesel fuel. I haven't looked at walmart for any additives to
 use. I am planning on looking at our local hardware store. I will
 be looking at the methonol alcohol and lye. I still don't know
 how to test any batch made. Also the used steak oil I picked up
 has oven cleaner mixed in it. Does that hurt anything? Thanks for
 your help Joe. God Bless, Donald




 God Bless, Donald Lyon 

 
 
 From: /Joe Street [EMAIL PROTECTED]/
 Reply-To: /Biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
 To: /Biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
 Subject: /Re: [Biofuel] lye/
 Date: /Mon, 22 Aug 2005 17:38:49 -0400/
 How can you be on this list and still be shopping at WALMART!!!
 Heaven help us.
 
 Joe
 
 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 
  first can I use red devil lye that is used for drain
 cleaner is it pure lye,
  it is in granular form should i grind it? also is
 denatured alcohol what
  you buy in wal-mart buy the quart ok to use for my test
 batches and
  training?
  
  
  ___
  Biofuel mailing list
  Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
 
 
 http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org
  
  Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
  http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
  
  Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives
 (50,000 messages):
  http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
  
  
  
 
 
 ___
 Biofuel mailing list
 Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
 
 http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org
 
 Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
 http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
 
 Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives
 (50,000 messages):
 http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
 



___
Biofuel mailing list
Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org

Biofuel at Journey to Forever:

Re: [Biofuel] thanks

2005-08-26 Thread malcolm maclure

Stelios, 

Many congratulations!! The world needs guys like you  I think you have made
a wise choice for a career. I would wish you all the very best of luck, but
you don't need it - you're well on the way already!! :-)

WELL DONE!!!

Malcolm 



-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: 24 August 2005 07:59
To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Subject: [Biofuel] thanks

Dear Prof Allen, Keith, et Al

With your help i made my dream possible.
I received my MSc in Environmental Engineering, and my diploma is titled:
Process development for biodiesel production from waste edible oils and
quality
control of the produced alternative fuel. 
My achivement however which i am really proud of is that i received three
awards
and 2 grants in national level (Greece), and i am waiting for another one
which
i replied lately in France. (very intereresting meeting opportunity to
exchange
ideas there www.innovact.com they have also a agro-meeting section)

My research interest is now on reclaiming biodiesel byproducts ang i am
considering the following: organic fertiliser(compost), natural antioxidants
(polyphenols, mainly from used olive oil),tocopherols, biopolymers,
metabolites
of glycerol (e.x. lactic acid). I think these should be mentioned on the web
site and i could  prepare something about these.

Thank you,
You are all in my heart.

Stelios

Stelios




  bob allen [EMAIL PROTECTED]:

 You use it just like fossil crude oil.  Further refining will afford 
 just about what ever you want, from low molecular wt gases and 
 distillates up thru asphalt.
 
 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  Can it be used as diesel substitute in cars? If not, what applications?
   
  Rgds
  WH
  
  
  
  
  ___
  Biofuel mailing list
  Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
 
http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org
  
  Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
  http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
  
  Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000
 messages):
  http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
  
 
 
 -- 
 Bob Allen
 http://ozarker.org/bob
 
 Science is what we have learned about how to keep
 from fooling ourselves ? Richard Feynman
 
 ___
 Biofuel mailing list
 Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
 http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org
 
 Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
 http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
 
 Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000
 messages):
 http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
 
 




___
Biofuel mailing list
Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org

Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000
messages):
http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/



___
Biofuel mailing list
Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org

Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):
http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/

Re: [Biofuel] Alternative to Toxic Mold Compounds?

2005-08-26 Thread Ray J


How about fiberglass resin for the mold..?its not that good for you 
either, U mainly just have to watch out for the vapors.. its probably 
better than what you are using, from a safety stand point.

what about something cast from plaster or carved out of wood??


the biggest thing of jb weld u can get is only 10 oz.. and its probbly 
not that cheap...

Tensile Strength: 3960
Adhesion: 1800
Flex Strength: 7320
Tensile Lap Shear: 1040
Shrinkage: 0.0%
Resistant to: 500° F

Ray J




Peter Childers wrote:

How about using JB Weld. It has a high heat resistance and is impervious to 
oils and chemicals etc. Not sure how big your molds are but you may be able 
to buy direct from JB Weld in larger quantities. It is a two part epoxy that 
I have used to mold repair plastic items. It gravity flows and sets into a 
shapeable and sandable mold.
Peter
- Original Message - 
From: Mike Weaver [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Sent: Friday, August 26, 2005 10:23 AM
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Alternative to Toxic Mold Compounds?


  

What about milling Acrylic?

Michael Redler wrote:



I know that this may fall outside the scope of our usual discussions
but, I thought there might be knowledge to gain here.

In the process of building a prototype solar tracker, I'm stuck with a
dilemma. Some of the parts I make need to be molded. So, I'm making
silicone based molds and casting the parts with two-part polyurethane.

According to the MSDS sheets, the catalyst for the silicone mold is a
tin-based compound and very toxic. The reason I started in this
direction is that it's readily available, widely used and proven to
work. When finished, I can cast parts in almost any material. I can
even pour low melt temperature metals.

I would like to make/use a casting material from something which is
safer to me and the environment and still be durable and
weather-proof. I was making pasta the other night and found (the next
morning) a couple of pieces of spaghetti, dried and conforming to the
shape of the colander. It made me wonder if there is a casting
materiel made of carbohydrates and /or starch that I can use with a
latex rubber mold.

Any thoughts?

Mike



___
Biofuel mailing list
Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org

Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 
messages):
http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/



  

___
Biofuel mailing list
Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org

Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 
messages):
http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/






___
Biofuel mailing list
Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org

Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):
http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/





  



___
Biofuel mailing list
Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org

Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):
http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/

Re: [Biofuel] New Biodegradable Polymers

2005-08-26 Thread Ray J

Just Disposed of how?? they make it sound like its just dumped... I 
thought glycerol and glycerin was a valuable commodity?



New biodegradable polymers may provide the biodiesel industry
 with a new use for glycerol, which is now disposed of after the
 biodiesel is made.


 Glycerol (which shows that it is an alcohol), while the impure commercial 
product is called Glycerin


Ray


Agricultural Research Service, USDA
Sharon Durham, (301) 504-1611, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
August 24, 2005
--View this report online, plus any included photos or other images,
at www.ars.usda.gov/is/pr
___

A biodiesel fuel byproduct called glycerol and an agricultural
commodity called citric acid can be chemically combined to produce
biodegradable polymers that could be used in produce packaging and
other products, according to Agricultural Research Service scientists.

Justin Barone, a chemist at the ARS Environmental Quality Laboratory
in Beltsville, Md., made the discovery while studying processes for
improving the effectiveness of insecticides that contain citric acid
as an active ingredient. Citric acid washes away very quickly in the
environment, limiting its effectiveness.

Barone found that molecules containing hydrogen and oxygen--such as
glycerol, sorbitol or polyethylene glycol--reacted with citric acid
to produce polymers with citric acid groups in them. The materials
formed are biodegradable polyesters. Further study showed that the
viscosity of the material can range from the consistency of paint to
a slow-to-dissolve, glasslike product, depending on how the chemical
reaction takes place.

The new biodegradable polymers may provide the biodiesel industry
with a new use for glycerol, which is now disposed of after the
biodiesel is made. In addition, citric acid is used in the food
industry as a retardant to browning in cut fruits and vegetables. The
new citric acid-based polyesters may prove useful as a packaging
material. Studies are under way to determine whether the new polymers
would work as well as pure citric acid in these applications.

ARS is the U.S. Department of Agriculture's chief scientific research


agency.
  

___
Biofuel mailing list
Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org

Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000


messages):
  

http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/






___
Biofuel mailing list
Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org

Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):
http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/





  



___
Biofuel mailing list
Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org

Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):
http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/

[Biofuel] Another use for glycerine

2005-08-26 Thread capt3d

the subject of glycerine by-product, and what to do with it, seems to come up 
quite frequently so i thought i'd pass on this bit of news.

cheers,

-chris

=

From: Steve Spence [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: biodiesel - glycerin - propylene glycol

Renewable Alternatives, has developed a process for converting glycerin, 
a byproduct of the biodiesel production process, into propylene glycol. 
Propylene glycol can be used as nontoxic antifreeze for automobiles.

Suppes said this technology can reduce the cost of biodiesel production 
by as much as $0.40 per gallon of biodiesel. The market for propylene 
glycol already is established, with a billion pounds produced a year.

Read more at http://www.green-trust.org

http://www.green-trust.org/2005/08/glycerin-biodiesel-byproduct-makes.html

___
Biofuel mailing list
Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org

Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):
http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/

Re: [Biofuel] Pat Robertson's business affiliation with Hugo Chavez

2005-08-26 Thread TarynToo

It's impossible to say Communism would've collapsed even w/o our 
help, since every state that has attempted communism, with few 
exceptions, has been destroyed by the U.S.A. and its allies using some 
combination of economic warfare, bribery and  corruption, economic and 
military support of 'counter-revolutionaries', and support of handy 
fascist states.

The exceptions?
China, which was so isolationist and so poor that it wasn't seen as any 
great threat, and whose own leaders were always so corrupt that it was 
only communist in name.
Israel, whose experiments with small scale communes were instrumental 
in the technological, social, and economic success of the country.
Lots of western and northern european countries have either dabbled  in 
communism (e.g. Italy), or socialism, (e.g. Sweden) with much success, 
and without the grotesque economic inequalities seen here in the USA. 
http://www.pkarchive.org/economy/ForRicher.html

And of course our most repugnant attack on communism and socialism 
continues within our own borders, with the state sanctioned murders and 
beatings of union organizers, persecution and prosecution of accused 
communists, the unending pro-business, anti-communist propaganda, 
McCarthy's witch hunts. (now re-invented as the Patriot acts), and the 
almost complete sellout of media and government to commercial 
interests.

I'm sure that many will take exception to everything I've said. Feel 
free to use facts to support your position.

Oh... Mike, as I re-read this before posting, it seemed like I might be 
attacking you. Actually I agree with everything you said, except 
(maybe) that communism always fails.

Thanks, Taryn
ornae.com

On Aug 26, 2005, at 7:08 PM, Mike Weaver wrote:

 Ah,  I think Communism would've collapsed even w/o our help - it blew
 up in places even where we weren't meddling.
 My own thoughts are realistic Capitalism - a reasonably regulated free
 market economy and a pragmatic federal government.
 Think, oh, Finland.  I do think the Constitution allows for national
 health insurance: Quote:

 We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect
 Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility
 http://www.usconstitution.net/glossary.html#DOMTRAN, provide for the
 common defence http://www.usconstitution.net/constmiss.html, promote
 the general Welfare
 http://www.usconstitution.net/glossary.html#WELFARE, and secure the
 Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity
 http://www.usconstitution.net/glossary.html#POSTERITY, do ordain
 http://www.usconstitution.net/glossary.html#ORDAIN and establish this
 Constitution for the United States of America.

 Falls under general Welfare

 Andy Karpay wrote:

 ...
 It was stated here earlier, but the US is responsible for Allende's
 death in Chile (1973?), Guevara's death, death in Honduras 
 (Iran-Contra
 scheme where arms were sold to Iran, our ally of the day, and the
 proceeds sent to the death squads in Honduras), on and on.
 It is stated many times in this country that communism has failed
 therefore it is no good.  The truth is that much of communism's 
 failure,
 in this hemisphere particularly, is due to our country's intervention 
 to
 ensure the demise of democratically elected leaders (you can, and we 
 do
 have democratic communism).  The US's fear is that if the country is
 communist, then we cannot exploit the labor and resources for our own
 gain, and the gain of the wealthy.  Remember, without poverty there is
 no wealth.

 AK

 ...


___
Biofuel mailing list
Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org

Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):
http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/

[Biofuel] Question

2005-08-26 Thread Carlos David Monsalve


HI, 
I want to know if there is a better way to recover the metanol from the Glicerine than the two show on the web page ( large quantities).

Thank you
Carlos Monsalve
MSN Amor Busca tu ½ naranja 


___
Biofuel mailing list
Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org

Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):
http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/

Re: [Biofuel] Robertson et al VS. followers

2005-08-26 Thread Clif Caldwell

Fred Finch wrote:

Clif, 

No flames from me just...

snip

  

Where is the outrage at the coverage of the war in Iraq ?



Coverage is adequate and the news is not very good.
  

http://chrenkoff.blogspot.com/2005/07/good-news-from-iraq-part-31.html
http://unix.dfn.org/good_news_iraq.shtml
http://www.usnews.com/usnews/opinion/baroneweb/mb_030726.htm
http://www.command-post.org/2_archives/019738.html
http://tampatrib.com/opinion/MGBQKJP0MCE.html
(A very thoughtful look at the reasons behind the current coverage.)

  

Have you heard one positive story on NPR or anywhere else ?



When there is no good news what is the use of making a fake report?
  

Please see above.

  

Where is the outrage at the fine work Michael Moore and numerous others
are doing at peddling lies ?



Lies or opinions?  It seems that Pat roberston can have them but not
Michael Moore?  Cite Links to the lies and we'll talk...
  

http://www.bowlingfortruth.com/
http://msnbc.msn.com/id/5335853/site/newsweek/
http://www.factcheck.org/article131.html
http://slate.msn.com/id/2102723/

  

Where is the outrage when fine mothers, sisters, sons and fathers who
are proud of the service their sons and daughters are offering in the
Armed Services are not given any voice and one heartbroken mother is
given weeks of press coverage because she is against the war in Irag ?



It seems that President Bush and Faux Nooze  is giving them voice, but
who is listening?
  

Good point. But then again public opinion is usually shaped by what they 
are told in the most strident tone and by the most numerous and loudest 
voices.

  

And finally a point that may need some attention by the Men of God
judicatory committee on this list :
Where is the outrage at allowing Muslim clerics right here in America to
daily call for the UTTER destruction of not only Americans who believe
that Allah may not be the way, but also any other infidels?



Again, cite a link and we'll talk.  

For every link you bring, I will find 10 Muslim cleric statements
denouncing those statements and the war and the 9/11 attacks.
  

http://www.leaderu.com/focus/islamandjihad.html
(I cannot speak or write as eloquently as this summary.)

  

All I'm saying is that I for one  feel compelled to be very conscious of
my own blind spots as I am chief among those who can stand only by
grace .



Yet you make it point to attempt to point out the blind spots of others.  

A suggestion perhaps, work on your own blind spots.  

IMO, Peace is not a blind spot.  

fred
  

I agree. I was too harsh in my statements. I apologize for the tone of 
them. Please forgive me. It seems the log in my eye was blinding me and 
needs some attention before I work on the perceived speck in others.
I too feel peace is a very good thing however perhaps we should be 
considering what kind of peace we are talking about.

A fellow seeker of the truth,
Clif


  

Just a thought to further take this list into a land far away from
renewable energy sources.

In need of clarity,
Clif

TarynToo wrote:



Amen Robert!

While not a christian, I've read many of the major scriptures of the
world. While reading the Robertson thread, I was thinking how badly we
needed to hear the Who would Jesus hate? Who would Jesus kill?
message.

Your message is so on target. The most important teaching we receive,
not just from Jesus, but from almost all prophets is Deeds are greater
than words. Love the least, as you love the great. Power demands
responsibility. If we are to follow their teachings, we must not tend
the church, we must tend our hearts and minds, and the whole world.

All it takes to distinguish the truly good from the hypocrite, is to
attend to their actions more than their words. How sad that so many of
us are deceived by the transparent and self-serving lies of our
political, spiritual, and commercial masters.

We are slaves, the truth will set us free.
Thank you, Taryn
ornae.com


On Aug 26, 2005, at 11:13 AM, robert luis rabello wrote:



  

BT wrote:




Greetings fellow revolutionary alchemists!

The question I have is, How do we help separate the good-hearted
followers from their devious leaders?


  

 I've found the best thing to do is go back to the scriptures from
whence Christians are supposed to derive standards for their behavior.
 This is especially true when the argument of you shouldn't judge
anyone comes to fore.  Now, Jesus himself said this, in the second
part of Luke 12: 48:

 From everyone who has been given much, much will be demanded; and


from one who has been entrusted with much, much more will be asked.
  

 Leaders, who ought to know better, are far more accountable than the
average person.  When Jesus confronted the leaders of his day, he
seldom had pleasant words for them for this very reason.  Here is an
example:

 Make a tree good and its fruit will be good, or make a tree bad and
its fruit will be bad, for a

Re: [Biofuel] Robertson et al VS. followers

2005-08-26 Thread Clif Caldwell

Keith Addison wrote:

My my. And I was just thinking you might be a man who'd do a bit of 
checking before he shot his foot off. Again. I do rather wonder what 
you mean when you say right here in America when actually where you 
are right now is right here on the global Internet, on a global 
discussion group with a global membership that includes many Muslims 
living in Muslim countries, who are probably more aware than you are 
of calls from your country - calls and deeds done - to kill them and 
their leaders. But that doesn't count, does it? It does here. If you 
want outrage over the coverage of the war in Iraq you'll find it 
aplenty, but you won't like it - it's outrage at the unquestioning, 
knee-jerk coverage your so-called liberal press (ROFL!!!) gave to 
the pack of blatant lies that led unfailingly to everything and 
everybody getting torn to pieces in Iraq (as most of us predicted at 
the time), including your precious military, and every single promise 
broken.
  

Guilty as accused concerning not backing up my statements. I have 
remedied this in another post. And guilty as accused as writing from a 
decidingly US perspective. I have traveled extensively including 
performing tsunami relief (as a civilian paying my own way) in Banda 
Aceh, Indonesia (90+ % Isalmic). Please understand that I have cried 
with, struggled with and even prayed with Muslims and Christians all 
over the world.  (I have carried out humanitarian efforts in Central and 
South America and Jordan also.) Unfortunately I was not as sensitive as 
I should have been to all the readers of this list.

I am a former officer in the USAF so perhaps I do have a fondness for 
the fine, exceedingly capable and patriotic  men and women serving to  
protect and defend a country I personally feel is a  pretty good place 
to live. Perhaps I am living under some delusions and if that is the 
case then I'm sure someone will try to correct the errors of my ways.

Thanks for the input. I will give it some thought.

Just a guy sorting things out,
Clif

  

Wow and to think that I was going to use this list only to figure out
how to titrate WVO correctly.
At the risk at attracting perhaps merited flames ..
Where is the outrage at the coverage of the war in Iraq ?
Have you heard one positive story on NPR or anywhere else ?
Where is the outrage at the fine work Michael Moore and numerous others
are doing at peddling lies ?
Where is the outrage when fine mothers, sisters, sons and fathers who
are proud of the service their sons and daughters are offering in the
Armed Services are not given any voice and one heartbroken mother is
given weeks of press coverage because she is against the war in Irag ?
And finally a point that may need some attention by the Men of God
judicatory committee on this list :



What exactly do you mean by that?

  

Where is the outrage at allowing Muslim clerics right here in America to
daily call for the UTTER destruction of not only Americans who believe
that Allah may not be the way, but also any other infidels?

All I'm saying is that I for one  feel compelled to be very conscious of
my own blind spots as I am chief among those who can stand only by
grace .

Just a thought to further take this list into a land far away from
renewable energy sources.



It is not far away from renewable energy sources. I think you should 
read this carefully, since it looks as if you haven't already done so:

http://sustainablelists.org/pipermail/biofuel_sustainablelists.org/200 
5-May/07.html
Or:
http://snipurl.com/gi45

Best wishes

Keith


  

In need of clarity,
Clif

TarynToo wrote:



Amen Robert!

While not a christian, I've read many of the major scriptures of the
world. While reading the Robertson thread, I was thinking how badly we
needed to hear the Who would Jesus hate? Who would Jesus kill?
message.

Your message is so on target. The most important teaching we receive,
not just from Jesus, but from almost all prophets is Deeds are greater
than words. Love the least, as you love the great. Power demands
responsibility. If we are to follow their teachings, we must not tend
the church, we must tend our hearts and minds, and the whole world.

All it takes to distinguish the truly good from the hypocrite, is to
attend to their actions more than their words. How sad that so many of
us are deceived by the transparent and self-serving lies of our
political, spiritual, and commercial masters.

We are slaves, the truth will set us free.
Thank you, Taryn
ornae.com


On Aug 26, 2005, at 11:13 AM, robert luis rabello wrote:



  

BT wrote:




Greetings fellow revolutionary alchemists!

The question I have is, How do we help separate the good-hearted
followers from their devious leaders?


  

I've found the best thing to do is go back to the scriptures from
whence Christians are supposed to derive standards for their behavior.
 This is especially true when the argument of you

Re: [Biofuel] Robertson et al VS. followers


Clif,

Do not worry, Guantanamo is full of people who only suggested a
destruction of US, but never did something about it. You have a lot
of people who supports you and think the same. Every day you will
find it in US news media, not to mention US legislation and US
government.

At 21:48 26/08/2005, you wrote:
Wow and to think that I was going to use this list only to figure out
how to titrate WVO correctly.
At the risk at attracting perhaps merited flames ..
Where is the outrage at the coverage of the war in Iraq ?

Every day in US media, Pentagon news briefing and White House
news briefing. It is much more attention to the official spin, than
the negative coverage about the war in Iraq. Is it not that you would
prefer it censored and only the good news to be reported.

Have you heard one positive story on NPR or anywhere else ?

Excuse an ignorant foreigner, but what is NPR? Is it an internationally
accepted shortening, or is it your secret?

Where is the outrage at the fine work Michael Moore and numerous others
are doing at peddling lies ?

I read a lot of outrage towards Michael Moore, why do you not read
it? Is it not that you would prefer it censored and only the bad news
to be reported.

Where is the outrage when fine mothers, sisters, sons and fathers who
are proud of the service their sons and daughters are offering in the
Armed Services are not given any voice and one heartbroken mother is
given weeks of press coverage because she is against the war in Irag ?

Why is there not a voice for the hundreds of thousands of fine Iraqis, who
died by the hands of Americans and only committed the crime to be born
in Iraq. It is far more press coverage for the couple of thousand Americans
who died, that for the couple of hundreds of thousands Iraqis who died. If
the press coverage is proportional, it would be 0.1% for the Americans
and 99.9% for the Iraqis. Much of the press coverage that I see, suggest
that the Americans have a divine right to kill Iraqis.

And finally a point that may need some attention by the Men of God
judicatory committee on this list :

What God? You have to be specific, because it is many of them and
it is difficult to know which one you mean. This list is very international
and open minded, so if it is a mention committee, there must be several
of them, each one representing a subset of members.

Where is the outrage at allowing Muslim clerics right here in America to
daily call for the UTTER destruction of not only Americans who believe
that Allah may not be the way, but also any other infidels?

As it is also many who call for the destruction of Muslims. But Chaves is
is a good Catholic, so this is an exception from the normal in US. What
has this to do with Chaves, who is a good catholic.


All I'm saying is that I for one  feel compelled to be very conscious of
my own blind spots as I am chief among those who can stand only by
grace .


Oooops!


Just a thought to further take this list into a land far away from
renewable energy sources.

Are you calling for more American participation?


In need of clarity,

Of what???

Clif

TarynToo wrote:

 Amen Robert!
 
 While not a christian, I've read many of the major scriptures of the
 world. While reading the Robertson thread, I was thinking how badly we
 needed to hear the Who would Jesus hate? Who would Jesus kill?
 message.
 
 Your message is so on target. The most important teaching we receive,
 not just from Jesus, but from almost all prophets is Deeds are greater
 than words. Love the least, as you love the great. Power demands
 responsibility. If we are to follow their teachings, we must not tend
 the church, we must tend our hearts and minds, and the whole world.
 
 All it takes to distinguish the truly good from the hypocrite, is to
 attend to their actions more than their words. How sad that so many of
 us are deceived by the transparent and self-serving lies of our
 political, spiritual, and commercial masters.
 
 We are slaves, the truth will set us free.
 Thank you, Taryn
 ornae.com
 
 
 On Aug 26, 2005, at 11:13 AM, robert luis rabello wrote:
 
 
 
 BT wrote:
 
 
 Greetings fellow revolutionary alchemists!
 
 The question I have is, How do we help separate the good-hearted
 followers from their devious leaders?
 
 
   I've found the best thing to do is go back to the scriptures from
 whence Christians are supposed to derive standards for their behavior.
   This is especially true when the argument of you shouldn't judge
 anyone comes to fore.  Now, Jesus himself said this, in the second
 part of Luke 12: 48:
 
   From everyone who has been given much, much will be demanded; and
 from one who has been entrusted with much, much more will be asked.
 
   Leaders, who ought to know better, are far more accountable than the
 average person.  When Jesus confronted the leaders of his day, he
 seldom had pleasant words for them for this very reason.  Here is an
 example:
 
   Make a tree good and its

Re: [Biofuel] Robertson et al VS. followers